Point in case: just bought the boxset of Spiderman 1,2 and 3

Spiderman3 is TrueHD only.

Latest version (3319f I believe) of Cyberlink plays it fine (previous were stuck because of security reasons I assume)

My PC is connected to a FullHD projector. The SPDIF output is connected to an good old Yamaha DSP-A1 amplifier (which works GREAT, I have no intention to change it).

And obviously TrueHD is not supported on the SPDIF link, so it is downmixed to 2.0.

Only when playing this title (this option is not available by default), I can enable DTS encoding on the audio tab of Cyberlink. Unfortunately it does not really work (amplifier still stuck to 2.0 analog). And there is no documentation on this feature anywhere.

Has anyone been able to downmix to DTS or DD a TrueHD track ?

So far I have not seen any relevant answer to this in the forum, so any help appreciated.

Aside from that, will the PS3 support downmixing to DD or DTS over SPDIF ?

If not, stupid of the studio to release Spiderman3 with only TrueHD support. How is one expected to play it back on older audio equipment...

Thanks

plays in Dolby Digital EX on my system (PS3) and onkyo 6.1 connected thru optical(True HD not supported),

Try checking the audio setting in the player. I know on my HD-A2 I have to set it to bitstream from PCM to get the DD(actually DTS) instead of the 2.0. Might be the same on your player. :)

Aside from that, will the PS3 support downmixing to DD or DTS over SPDIF ?

If not, stupid of the studio to release Spiderman3 with only TrueHD support. How is one expected to play it back on older audio equipment...
I can't help you wit your PowerDVD question, but I can field this one.

The PS3 can NOT downmix soundtracks to DD or DTS, with the current firmware. However, every single BD disc does have a DD soundtrack that it can access. In the case of titles that only list TrueHD soundtracks, such as Spider Man 3, the DD track is hidden (not selectable via menu) and tied to the TrueHD track, such that if you select TrueHD and your equipment can't output it, you get the DD track output over the optical out.

Clear as mud? :)

I can't help you wit your PowerDVD question, but I can field this one.

The PS3 can NOT downmix soundtracks to DD or DTS, with the current firmware. However, every single BD disc does have a DD soundtrack that it can access. In the case of titles that only list TrueHD soundtracks, such as Spider Man 3, the DD track is hidden (not selectable via menu) and tied to the TrueHD track, such that if you select TrueHD and your equipment can't output it, you get the DD track output over the optical out.

Clear as mud? :)

I thought I read this somewhere, but couldn't remember where so I omitted it from my response, but, this jives with what i remember reading, the DD track is hidden and will automatically play if TurHD is not supported

Why don't you get a player that supports 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs, hook that up to a receiver/amplifier, and get the audio you paid for. Why do you want HD video, without HD audio, I just don't get it.

I can't help you wit your PowerDVD question, but I can field this one.

The PS3 can NOT downmix soundtracks to DD or DTS, with the current firmware. However, every single BD disc does have a DD soundtrack that it can access. In the case of titles that only list TrueHD soundtracks, such as Spider Man 3, the DD track is hidden (not selectable via menu) and tied to the TrueHD track, such that if you select TrueHD and your equipment can't output it, you get the DD track output over the optical out.

Clear as mud? :)

Why is it then that the Nine Inch Nails FAQ on the Blu-ray disc states differently, that the Dolby 5.1 track is mixed within the TrueHD track, not "tied" to it, but rather like the DTS core?

http://halo22.nin.com/hdfaq.html#q11

For the Blu-ray version there are only two audio menu selections, Dolby Stereo and Dolby TrueHD Surround. Here's why: The Dolby TrueHD contains a Dolby Digital substream. If you are watching on a player that doesn't support Dolby TrueHD (many of the first generation BD players), you will get the default Dolby Digital Surround audio. If you have a player that supports Dolby TrueHD (such as a Playstation 3), you will get Dolby Digital Surround out of the SP/DIF port and Dolby TrueHD out of the HDMI port.

Why is it then that the Nine Inch Nails FAQ on the Blu-ray disc states differently, that the Dolby 5.1 track is mixed within the TrueHD track, not "tied" to it, but rather like the DTS core?

http://halo22.nin.com/hdfaq.html#q11
That may be what you're reading into it, but geko is right - the DD track is on the disc, but the disc is authored in such a way that only the DTHD tracks shows up on the menu. There is no DD core in DTHD. I'll refer you to Roger Dressler's post on this:
TrueHD has no lossy core. The technology is no different when used on BD as when it is used in HD DVD. But the application is different, in that in BD, TrueHD is optional, so it needs to be accompanied by a mandatory codec, and in that case it's Dolby Digital. This is carried on the disc along with the lossless data, but it is not used to reconstruct the lossless output as is the case with DTS Master.

Link. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11704216#post11704216)

To Seanbender,

For practical reasons I cannot connect through analog audio. Plus my audio inputs on my amplifier are already taken up by my DVD-Audio/SACD player.

As for not taking advantage of HD-audio vs HD-video, to each his own constraints. To take full advantage of HD-audio, I would need to watch movies at a sound level that would be incompatible with my surroundings. So I'm very happy with regular DTS and AC3, that fits perfectly my environnment.


Thanks for the other suggestions on the 'hidden' DD+ track. Unfortunately I was still not able to access it. It looks like neither PowerDVD nor Arcsoft Digital Theatre can access it correctly (it does not even appear on the list of available tracks when accessed through the application itself - ie without using the BD movie navigation scheme, directly accessing them with a right click of the mouse, then selecting the audio tracks drop menu).

Any other suggestion would be welcome

vincent

Tested several app (Arcsoft and Cyberlink), none of them is able to correctly select the hidden DD+ track.

Oh well, time for a DTS connect soundcard then. Or I buy a PS3 for chrismas :-)

Point in case: just bought the boxset of Spiderman 1,2 and 3

Spiderman3 is TrueHD only.

Latest version (3319f I believe) of Cyberlink plays it fine (previous were stuck because of security reasons I assume)

My PC is connected to a FullHD projector. The SPDIF output is connected to an good old Yamaha DSP-A1 amplifier (which works GREAT, I have no intention to change it).

And obviously TrueHD is not supported on the SPDIF link, so it is downmixed to 2.0.

Only when playing this title (this option is not available by default), I can enable DTS encoding on the audio tab of Cyberlink. Unfortunately it does not really work (amplifier still stuck to 2.0 analog). And there is no documentation on this feature anywhere.

Has anyone been able to downmix to DTS or DD a TrueHD track ?

So far I have not seen any relevant answer to this in the forum, so any help appreciated.

Aside from that, will the PS3 support downmixing to DD or DTS over SPDIF ?

If not, stupid of the studio to release Spiderman3 with only TrueHD support. How is one expected to play it back on older audio equipment...

Thanks

SM3 has an uncompressed PCM track too.
I'm also on spdif with no plans of upgrading soon.

My Onlyo 601 has a theater dimensional feature which takes any 2 channel audio and spreads it across your surround sound with ProLogic

I enjoy this method for PCM tracks, but when limited to TrueHD or DTS-MA, I just let it down mix to 640kbps/1.5mbps

As far as I know PowerDVD doesn't play the "hidden" AC3 track on TrueHD Blu-rays.

Actually I would think that this is required of any Blu-ray player. So Cyberlink isn't following the standard. Maybe you can send a note to them requesting this feature.

More something to post in HTPC section but there are some sound cards that can take a LPCM stream and encode it to 1.5Mbps DTS.

Basically PowerDVD would decode the TrueHD -> LPCM then the soundcard would encode it to DTS and output via SPDIF.

This is similar to how the A-2 series handles TrueHD and DD+ tracks.

That may be what you're reading into it, but geko is right - the DD track is on the disc, but the disc is authored in such a way that only the DTHD tracks shows up on the menu. There is no DD core in DTHD. I'll refer you to Roger Dressler's post on this:


Link. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11704216#post11704216)

On Fifth Element the manditory CODEC is PCM so the two CODECs on the disc are TrueHD and PCM both of which cannot be outputed multichannel over SPDIF. So the "hidden DD" is not always there which causes problems for SPDIF.
The new Cyberlink has DTS encoding (the patch off of their website not the one the player recommends). It is possibly the worst DTS encoding I have ever heard though so I do not recommend it.

-Rian

On Fifth Element the manditory CODEC is PCM so the two CODECs on the disc are TrueHD and PCM both of which cannot be outputed multichannel over SPDIF. So the "hidden DD" is not always there which causes problems for SPDIF.

The remastered version of The Fifth Element does, in fact, have a DD track (even though it doesn't show up in the menu) which is why the DTHD track is the default track (before Sony started using DTHD, the DD track was always the default track.) It's the same with the NIN concert. Note that this type of authoring is not required - Warner still lists their DD tracks separately in the setup menus - it's optional and will only work with BD titles.

PCM is not a mandatory codec - it's not even a codec at all - you have to use HDMI and/or analog outs for multi-channel PCM. There's a reason why all of those Sony (and some Disney) titles that sport PCM tracks also include 640kbps DD tracks...

Are you using a player (PS3 or standalone) or are you using a PC with software? I'm thinking that what Benes said is right - there's probably an issue with how the software interprets the track in those situations where the DD track is "hidden."

Steev... PCM playback is mandatory for BD. There are a handful of titles without an alternative identical audio stream in another format. It's bad form to do that, though... since most all BD players have no technology to convert it to a S/PDIF compatible lossy multichannel format for those not using HDMI. They are stuck with 2 channel PCM over S/PDIF.

If not, stupid of the studio to release Spiderman3 with only TrueHD support. How is one expected to play it back on older audio equipment...

Thanks

Stupid not to make it mandatory in blu ray players. You know one of the main ideas of the BDA was to make you upgrade your receivers as well, right?

Steev... PCM playback is mandatory for BD. There are a handful of titles without an alternative identical audio stream in another format. It's bad form to do that, though... since most all BD players have no technology to convert it to a S/PDIF compatible lossy multichannel format for those not using HDMI. They are stuck with 2 channel PCM over S/PDIF.
While there are a few titles with PCM as the only 5.1 option (The first part of Season Six of the Sopranos is the only title that comes to mind,) I know of no Sony titles where this is the case. I also know that the remastered version of The Fifth Element and the NIN concert both have a DD track, though they're not listed in the menus.

Also, while PCM playback is mandatory in all players, that does nothing for those who are using optical (unless you want a downmixed 2-channel track.) Like I said, there's a reason that all of those Sony titles that have PCM tracks (as the only lossless choice) also have a DD track.

While there are a few titles with PCM as the only 5.1 option (The first part of Season Six of the Sopranos is the only title that comes to mind,) I know of no Sony titles where this is the case. I also know that the remastered version of The Fifth Element and the NIN concert both have a DD track, though they're not listed in the menus.

Also, while PCM playback is mandatory in all players, that does nothing for those who are using optical (unless you want a downmixed 2-channel track.) Like I said, there's a reason that all of those Sony titles that have PCM tracks (as the only lossless choice) also have a DD track.

I should be clear here, I have the remastered version which only has the Dolby Digital in French (according to the box and the reviews). http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=456

It would be awesome if it actually does have the DD track but it is useless if you cannot access it.

-Rian

I should be clear here, I have the remastered version which only has the Dolby Digital in French (according to the box and the reviews). http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=456

It would be awesome if it actually does have the DD track but it is useless if you cannot access it.

-Rian
I have the same copy. While it's not listed, there is a DD track - this is why the DTHD is the default track on the disc. Are you using a PC? If you're using a standalone (or the PS3,) there should be no reason why you can't access the DD track.

I think I see the problem. This was posted on HiDef Digest:

"Originally Posted by Josh Z
The Sony insider "Paidgeek" who used to post at AVSForum confirmed that both discs do indeed have 'hidden' Dolby Digital tracks. They aren't selectable from the disc menus, but if you choose TrueHD the player will automatically revert to DD 5.1 if you aren't using equipment that will support the TrueHD.

I can explain how this works technically:

The Blu-Ray TrueHD stream actually contains both TrueHD audio blocks and AC3 frames. They are kind of interweaved. A player that can decode TrueHD just throws away the AC3 frames and decodes the TrueHD audio blocks. And a player who can't decode TrueHD skips the TrueHD blocks and simply plays the AC3 frames. It's a bit ugly because those two formats don't really have to do anything with each other, but still they're stored in one messed up data stream. But it seems to work. And it's practical because the user just choses the language and the player automatically chooses the highest quality audio track it can play."

Cyberlink does decode TrueHD so if the above is correct it throws away the AC3 stream leaving us with our problem. I belive this is not a problem on standalone blu-ray players since they do not decode TrueHD.

-Rian

I think I see the problem. This was posted on HiDef Digest:

"Originally Posted by Josh Z
The Sony insider "Paidgeek" who used to post at AVSForum confirmed that both discs do indeed have 'hidden' Dolby Digital tracks. They aren't selectable from the disc menus, but if you choose TrueHD the player will automatically revert to DD 5.1 if you aren't using equipment that will support the TrueHD.

I can explain how this works technically:

The Blu-Ray TrueHD stream actually contains both TrueHD audio blocks and AC3 frames. They are kind of interweaved. A player that can decode TrueHD just throws away the AC3 frames and decodes the TrueHD audio blocks. And a player who can't decode TrueHD skips the TrueHD blocks and simply plays the AC3 frames. It's a bit ugly because those two formats don't really have to do anything with each other, but still they're stored in one messed up data stream. But it seems to work. And it's practical because the user just choses the language and the player automatically chooses the highest quality audio track it can play."
Yep, I knew this was how it worked.
Cyberlink does decode TrueHD so if the above is correct it throws away the AC3 stream leaving us with our problem. I belive this is not a problem on standalone blu-ray players since they do not decode TrueHD.

-Rian

Plenty of standalone players decode DTHD (the PS3 does, too.) The DD track comes into play when the optical connection is used instead of HDMI or analog. PowerDVD should not be throwing away the DD track if you're using optical - it's not doing what it should be. As benes said, it appears that the problem lies with the software.

Thanks,this thread has been useful. I just figured the PS3 used it's dolby encoder to get around the TrueHD thing since DD is not listed on the box. Time to open a support issue with Cyberlink.

-Rian

Thanks,this thread has been useful. I just figured the PS3 used it's dolby encoder to get around the TrueHD thing since DD is not listed on the box. Time to open a support issue with Cyberlink.

-Rian
Good luck Cyberlink has been down right abysmal with properly following the specs.

Don't even get me started on how they downgrade HD audio for no reason 24bit->16bit. Even if you rip the disc, remove all AACS, burn it to a new disc and play it Cyberlink downgrades the audio from 24bit->16bit. They claim it is required under AACS. I had to explain to them the title has no AACS because I ripped it (a title I owned). The response was that it was done on ripped titles also as a copy protection measure.

Hope you have more luck but likely Cyberlink will not even admit that it is an issue.

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now i got the ps3 so i could enjoy movies and games, the hole point of hi def is to enjoy the hidef picture and HI DEF sound. I have the onkyo 805, however i cant enjoy my rush hour 3 with 7.1. i even set the ps3 to send bitstream instead of pcm so that my receiver can decode it , but nope only send in multi channel and doesnt even send anything to the speakers #6 and 7. i never get those speakers to light up on the receiver even when i am playing a differ movie with dd + or dex or dttrue hd which are supposed to have 6 channels. i have all my settings correct. does anyone know why i have this problem.
Bottom line if you dont get the hidef sound your only getting half of the benefit of blue ray movies. any suggestion how to fix my problem?

I cant enjoy any sound in the rear two speakers # 6,7 except when watching tv where i have it set to neural audio 7.1, then those speakers on the display light up.

i also have an hd dvd but it only sent out sound in pcm, but on my ps3 the setting shows that i can send it in bit stream, so my recvr should do the decoding, but i get nothing other thean dobly on the display, Spider man 3 has dolby true hd, my display doent show d true dhd just dolby?

i have highly tech question, van anyone give me suggestions on how to get these questions answeered.

P.s also have the samsung blu ray from costco, that one send out in bitstream or pcm and your supposed to get it sent out in true form an my display on recvr should show d true hd or dts hd, havnt tried it yet, the playre is going back crappy and with software 1.1 not compatible or upgradeable to 1.2 whitch is the new blue ray format- so u can enjoy the xtras

please help.

kitkat99, wrong thread really but PS3 doesn't bitstream advanced codecs... nor does it support decoding DS-HD MA internally. For titles with DTS-HD MA (FOX, New Line), you'll hear DTS 5.1 @ 1.5Mbps... which you can let your receiver process into 7.1.

Bottom line if you dont get the hidef sound your only getting half of the benefit of blue ray movies.I disagree. Great sound can be delivered by both "old" DTS and Dolby Digital on Blu-Ray, both exceeding the performance delivered on DVD. Yes, Lossless delivery is a good thing, but don't believe all the hype.

kitkat99, wrong thread really but PS3 doesn't bitstream advanced codecs... nor does it support decoding DS-HD MA internally. For titles with DTS-HD MA (FOX, New Line), you'll hear DTS 5.1 @ 1.5Mbps... which you can let your receiver process into 7.1.

I disagree. Great sound can be delivered by both "old" DTS and Dolby Digital on Blu-Ray, both exceeding the performance delivered on DVD. Yes, Lossless delivery is a good thing, but don't believe all the hype.

makes you wonder how many players are hooked up right from both sides
right now taking advantage of better audio.

Well i spent time hooking up my costco samsung blu ray that im going to return, this sys allows bit stream pass through, Playing on my onkyo 805 with rush hour 3 in 7.1 dts hd ma sounde good. i got all 7 channels. the ps3 is not capable of sending 7.1 ch on pcm, only 5.1 sorry. Sounded much better with the samsung than from ps3. I only hope that ps3 has some kind of update to allow bitstream pass thorugh, only then will we get true 7.1.

Im an audiophile, true 7.1 matters, you can only get that from HI-DEF SOUND, dts hd ma or dtrue hd, but the first movie i know to have it is rh3, it does make a difference, and yes on my old recvr, jvc, old dvd reg old dts/dd, i thought they sounded awesome too, but then i move on to better, to hear is to be impressed.

p.s i though CARS was supposed to be 7.1, but when i looked on the box it said 5.1. the preview on pirates 3 says 7.1?

No, the PS3 can send 7.1 PCM. But you were trying to decode DTS-HD MA, which PS3 does not support currently. No update can change PS3 to "bitstream" advanced codecs; the hardware can't do it. Sorry. Sony may eventually add DTS-HD MA decoding to PS3.

And no, the advertisement doesn't say Cars has 7.1. It says the Blu-Ray format can support 7.1.

well i herd that 3;10 TO YUMA IS IN 7.1 PCM, HOPEFULLY I WILL HERE IT IN 7.1. NOW I WONDER, WILL THE INDICATOR LIGHT UP ON MY RCVER SHOWING SPEAKER 6,7 ARE GETTING SOUND?

I Know It Doesnt Support 7.1 Dts Hd, I Have Seen The Ps3 Menus On The Spec Sheet, However What I Want , Which Is Truely Superior Is Just To Send The Info In Raw For, Via Bitstream So That My Rcver Can Decode The Dts Hd Ma, As It Does For Dts And Dd, Just Not The Hi Def Sound, That Is What I Hope.

As I said, for PS3... that won't happen. Decoding it in PS3 (eventually) and sending multi-channel PCM to your receiver will result in the same quality.

noW THAT RHUSH HOUR 3 ONLY COMES WITH DTS HD MASTER 7.1, AND BEING THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET THE SOUND VIA HDMI OR OPTICAL, WHEN I WATCH IT ON MY PS3, WHAT SOUND AM I REALLY GETTING, WILL IT SOUND BETTER ON OPT OR HDMI, BEING THAT IT CANT PCM DTSHDMA ONLY THE UNCOMPRESSED FORM WHAT AM I GETTING? I DONT KNOW BUT I DO KNOW IT SOUNDED MUCH BETTER WHEN I PLAYED IT IN REAL DTS HD MA 7.1?;)