The ads are leading people to think that just by buying one of these players - they will now be able to convert DVD to HDM. I mean 1080 is 1080 . . . at least as far as the uninformed consumer is concerned.

We know that there is a difference between UP DVD and HDM. We strive for the best available source. Does the consumer by in large know this?

Or is he looking for a "cheap way out" - to not only extend the life of his DVD collection - but to avoid the high priced movies that HDM has.

Price is King! Content is King! So who has the lowest price and largest content?

Yet here lies a built in market. A target market - a consumer who is spending money to improve PQ. Where DVD is NOT good enough . . . but UP DVD is.

Yup. One of my wife's friends at work said there was nearly a fight at our walmart on black friday for the HD DVD player that was on sale for $30.00. It was a crappy magnavox up-converting player. Won't those people be pissed when they find out it won't play HD DVD or BD. lol Oh well, at least $30 is in the toss it in the trash price range.

Most of the blame lies with the BDA and Toshiba. They should be out there, spreading the word, and pointing out the big differences. Although there is a smattering of commercials for HDM, it is nowhere near enough. Get the info out there, be aggressive, educate the average consumer.

i went to walmart last night to see how the hd dvd sales were going since they had sold all those a2 out in one day.

no hd dvd players in sight anywhere. turns out they never got in another shipment after that.

also, i asked the sales guy where the hd dvd players are and he took me to a stack of $29 upconverting players sitting on the end cap next to the bd and hd dvd titles.

i bet there are a lot of "hd dvd" player owners buying combo discs that probably won't know until a year from now that the player they bought isn't even playing hd content.

What a lot of people forget around here is that the vast population out there is not like us. They really don't care about this stuff. A 42 inch TV is the outer realm of what they would want and do not have surround sound. DVD is certainly good enough for most people. However, as more and more people buy larger HD TV's, you will see demand for HD media increase. I think it is the displays that will drive the market. Out of over 50 people that I am close to, only myself and two others have a setup that would take advantage of HD media. I happen to be a movie nut. And in using the term "nut", I use it in the most pathological manner. So HD media is very, very important to me.

Most of the blame lies with the BDA and Toshiba. They should be out there, spreading the word, and pointing out the big differences. Although there is a smattering of commercials for HDM, it is nowhere near enough. Get the info out there, be aggressive, educate the average consumer.

They already spread the word. DVD players sales were down, so they had to sell something. They came up with DVD players that make DVDs HD and told the whole world about them. It's really tough to sell something to people that already have it.

They already spread the word. DVD players sales were down, so they had to sell something. They came up with DVD players that make DVDs HD and told the whole world about them. It's really tough to sell something to people that already have it.

I understand and agree with your point Slim. I am saying that now is the time to differentiate them, with powerful marketing. It can still be done, even with all of the upconversion garbage being tossed around. If they can't or simply refuse to do this, HDM has a really rocky road ahead.

I understand and agree with your point Slim. I am saying that now is the time to differentiate them, with powerful marketing. It can still be done, even with all of the upconversion garbage being tossed around. If they can't or simply refuse to do this, HDM has a really rocky road ahead.

in the case of bd, the difference is obvious but people actually have to choose hdm. bd needs marketing to pump it up and get the word out. if consumers don't choose to buy hdm they can just keep buying dvd.

in the case of hd dvd the heavy marketing is pointless and isn't needed. all that needs to happen is for the studios to phase out dvd in favor of combo/twin discs and people will figure out that they need a new player to play the other stuff on the disc.

the hd dvd side can just sit back and let the bda pay for the marketing. calling attention to bd calls attention to hd dvd.

I mean 1080 is 1080 . . . at least as far as the uninformed consumer is concerned.

Yes, I hear that quite a lot here at AVS, 1080i is 1080p. ;)

I agree, my father in-law got one of those "entertainment" AV centers with integrated surround sound and upconvert DVD player.
He just got his HDTV last weekend and I told him he may want to pick up an HD DVD player at Best Buy for $199(last weekends sale).
He tells me his DVD player already plays HD and he doesn't need an HD DVD player.
After some explaining, he still wasn't buying in to the whole HDM product until I showed him my setup.
I showed him upconvert of an SD DVD and HDM movie of the same title and he seen a difference. Then he noticed that I have both(Blu-ray / HD DVD).
Then he asked if he needed both.
I told him about the great "format war" and that most movies are exclusive to specific formats. After some talking, he'll be waiting out this "format war" for a standard HDM format that has all released movie titles.


On a side note, a friend try to tell me he had HD sound because he uses optical from his DVD player to his stereo. You know, because it's digital and digital is HD right ????? :rolleyes:
The misinformation out there is out of hand.

in the case of bd, the difference is obvious but people actually have to choose hdm. bd needs marketing to pump it up and get the word out. if consumers don't choose to buy hdm they can just keep buying dvd.

in the case of hd dvd the heavy marketing is pointless and isn't needed. all that needs to happen is for the studios to phase out dvd in favor of combo/twin discs and people will figure out that they need a new player to play the other stuff on the disc.

the hd dvd side can just sit back and let the bda pay for the marketing. calling attention to bd calls attention to hd dvd.

I disagree, marketing is needed and essential at this time. A lot of consumers are buying up converts thinking it is indeed true HD. A big line needs to be drawn to separate the two. Better yet, these CE's need to phase out SD DVD players all together and just sell (at reasonable prices) hi def players. That would aid in penetration, and people could still use and buy their SD DVD's. Will this happen? Probably not.

A big problem is that many of the tags, key names, buzz words were there before blu-ray and hd dvd. Phrases like "full hd" and such were used as far back as I can remember, even on the 1st samsung upconvting player and on the hd-841 and hd-850 I still own.

I disagree, marketing is needed and essential at this time. A lot of consumers are buying up converts thinking it is indeed true HD. A big line needs to be drawn to separate the two. Better yet, these CE's need to phase out SD DVD players all together and just sell (at reasonable prices) hi def players. That would aid in penetration, and people could still use and buy their SD DVD's. Will this happen? Probably not.

how does any of that matter if studios will get rid of dvd in favor of combo/twin?

combo/twin also play in upconvert players.

we are talking about players they cost less then a day/date SD dvd special edition.

imo it doesn't matter at all what ce companies do if studios choose to phase out dvd then hdm is in and dvd is out. they are producing the hd and sd version anyway so why not put both on the same disc and get rid of the extra packaging?

how does any of that matter if studios will get rid of dvd in favor of combo/twin?

combo/twin also play in upconvert players.

we are talking about players they cost less then a day/date SD dvd special edition.

imo it doesn't matter at all what ce companies do if studios choose to phase out dvd then hdm is in and dvd is out. they are producing the hd and sd version anyway so why not put both on the same disc and get rid of the extra packaging?

I'm not arguing that at all oliverjg, if fact I agree with that being a good idea. The only problem is, you still have to sell the hi def players.

Nice Oppo ad at the top of the page ;)

I'm not arguing that at all oliverjg, if fact I agree with that being a good idea. The only problem is, you still have to sell the hi def players.

people will buy the players anyway when they are cheap enough just to get at the other stuff on the discs they already bought. eventually their cheapo sd player will die or a friend will show them the aq/pq or interactivity stuff. maybe next xmas there will be $49 hd players.

Nice Oppo ad at the top of the page ;)

LOL

^+1

The ads are leading people to think that just by buying one of these players - they will now be able to convert DVD to HDM. I mean 1080 is 1080 . . . at least as far as the uninformed consumer is concerned.

We know that there is a difference between UP DVD and HDM. We strive for the best available source. Does the consumer by in large know this?

Or is he looking for a "cheap way out" - to not only extend the life of his DVD collection - but to avoid the high priced movies that HDM has.

Price is King! Content is King! So who has the lowest price and largest content?

Yet here lies a built in market. A target market - a consumer who is spending money to improve PQ. Where DVD is NOT good enough . . . but UP DVD is.

Sadly, I will always need UP DVD, because a good 150 of my DVDs are PAL. Toshiba should have tossed out regional encoding for DVD too and stuck in PAL conversion, even if it was some "unofficial" reprogram you do on the remote as with the Oppos.

From the product descriptions at Amazom.com - UP DVD Players:

The Samsung DVD-HD1080P7 Hi-Def Conversion DVD Player is designed for those who accept nothing less than HDTV quality

Toshiba's SD-6000 DVD Player with 1080p Upconversion is designed to improve HDTV viewing and deliver a new level of video performance

The Sony DVP-NS75H single-disc DVD player offers 720p and 1080i upscaling through an HDMI connection (High Definition Multi Media Interface).

this Philips DV5982 DVD Player will upconvert an ordinary DVD to appear as if it were native to 1080p.

ALL were $75 or less.

:(:(:(

I am in agreement with most of this thread. I am not in agreement with the 1080i/1080p thing, having owned both.

I'm not debating which one looks better at 1080 lines.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that most 1080i-capable sets these days are actually 768p sets (1366x768 resolution). They're actually taking the 1080i signal and degrading it to fit the lower resolution. Few people understand this -- even on sites like AVS. Heck, I didn't know this for quite some time, myself. So even if your set says it accepts 1080i, it's not actually 1080i if its resolution is 1366x768.

For me, 1080i (downscaled to 768p) is good enough at the distance I am from my TV. The only thing that bugs me about it is that some text looks edgy.

In all truth, I find 1080p LCDs operating at 24hz make films look far too much like video, for my taste. Animation looks cooler, but films... on LCD at 24hz... yuck!

I am in agreement with most of this thread. I am not in agreement with the 1080i/1080p thing, having owned both.

I'm not debating which one looks better at 1080 lines.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that most 1080i-capable sets these days are actually 768p sets (1366x768 resolution). They're actually taking the 1080i signal and degrading it to fit the lower resolution. Few people understand this -- even on sites like AVS. Heck, I didn't know this for quite some time, myself. So even if your set says it accepts 1080i, it's not actually 1080i if its resolution is 1366x768.

For me, 1080i (downscaled to 768p) is good enough at the distance I am from my TV. The only thing that bugs me about it is that some text looks edgy.

In all truth, I find 1080p LCDs operating at 24hz make films look far too much like video, for my taste. Animation looks cooler, but films... on LCD at 24hz... yuck!

I have a 1080i CRT HDTV. Is this downscaling happening on my TV?

I have a 1080i CRT HDTV. Is this downscaling happening on my TV?

Yes - a consumer Direct View CRT HDTV can't resolve the full Hortizontal Resolution of either 1920 or 1280.

The Wal-Mart Canada ad is reasonable:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1310/wmflyer3qs7.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wmflyer3qs7.jpg)
The Venturer HD DVD is called HD DVD, and upscaling players are called "near-HD".

Yet here lies a built in market. A target market - a consumer who is spending money to improve PQ. Where DVD is NOT good enough . . . but UP DVD is.

This is so frustrating. If people don't see a material difference between HDM and DVD, then they certainly aren't going to see a differnce between DVD and upconverted-DVD.

Oh yeah, that's because there is no difference.

Tried to explain to my brother-in-law over the holidays that upconverted DVD was largely a marketing scam and that converting in the player versus in the display would make very little apparent difference - particularly when you're talking about $99 players.

So what's your point, Lee?

That HDM is doomed to fail because the average consumer will buy upconverted DVD at $99 (and discs at $18) and on his/her 42" flatpanel display it will be good enough?

I really hope not!

black friday's circuit city ad had a toshiba upconverter in it with a shiny "full hd 1080p" tag next to it. Certainly leads to confusion when people walk into a store and see that sticker (the same one that's on bd and hd players) on a $50 upconverter. Especially when they may have heard from a friend about cheap toshiba hd players at walmart a few weeks ago.

This is so frustrating. If people don't see a material difference between HDM and DVD, then they certainly aren't going to see a differnce between DVD and upconverted-DVD.

Oh yeah, that's because there is no difference.

Tried to explain to my brother-in-law over the holidays that upconverted DVD was largely a marketing scam and that converting in the player versus in the display would make very little apparent difference - particularly when you're talking about $99 players.

So what's your point, Lee?

That HDM is doomed to fail because the average consumer will buy upconverted DVD at $99 (and discs at $18) and on his/her 42" flatpanel display it will be good enough?

I really hope not!

:D - well that was one point.

The other is that there exists in the home video market - a consumer who wants better PQ and is willing to pay for it. It only works with an HDTV so he has the required display.

And the price of HD DVD players though very low - is fast approaching the price of an UP DVD player and it too UP's DVD's.

The only ads I have seen the HD DVD PG run on TV seem geared to the general public. HD DVD (and BD) are much better PQ than DVD. So if a consumer goes into a B&M to check it out - all the warts are now seen with their eyes.

What we need is an ad that specifically targets the person who is preparing to buy an UP DVD player - show him that though it does look good . . . it does not look as good as native HD.

"Hope Springs Eternal.";)

I agree. My mother just bought some Sony Bravia 1080p of some sorts and I asked if she got a HD DVD player or a Blu-ray player. Her response was "we got a 5 disk Sony 1080p HD DVD player," and I had to inform her that it was only an upconverter and the salesperson was talking out of their ass. These shmucks will do anything for a sale but they can't even properly explain to the customers what they are purchasing.

I agree. My mother just bought some Sony Bravia 1080p of some sorts and I asked if she got a HD DVD player or a Blu-ray player. Her response was "we got a 5 disk Sony 1080p HD DVD player," and I had to inform her that it was only an upconverter and the salesperson was talking out of their ass. These shmucks will do anything for a sale but they can't even properly explain to the customers what they are purchasing.

Sorry - Can't Resist!:D

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/sony-hd-dvd.jpg

The ads are leading people to think that just by buying one of these players - they will now be able to convert DVD to HDM. I mean 1080 is 1080 . . . at least as far as the uninformed consumer is concerned.

We know that there is a difference between UP DVD and HDM. We strive for the best available source. Does the consumer by in large know this?

Or is he looking for a "cheap way out" - to not only extend the life of his DVD collection - but to avoid the high priced movies that HDM has.

Price is King! Content is King! So who has the lowest price and largest content?

Yet here lies a built in market. A target market - a consumer who is spending money to improve PQ. Where DVD is NOT good enough . . . but UP DVD is.

I agree. My real life experience comes from trying to convince a brother-in-law that his Samsung all in one DVD 5.1 surround sound was not a HD DVD player. He kept repeating "but it says 1080p" until I wanted to slap him. he is a professional earning six figures with a 50 inch plasma but no clue about HDM

Most of the blame lies with the BDA and Toshiba. They should be out there, spreading the word, and pointing out the big differences. Although there is a smattering of commercials for HDM, it is nowhere near enough. Get the info out there, be aggressive, educate the average consumer.

This sums it up. I think most average consumers are skeptical, they view this as just another way to extract more dollars and will need to be convinced.

Sorry - Can't Resist!:D

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/sony-hd-dvd.jpg

Stuff like this makes me want to smack employees.

I am in agreement with most of this thread. I am not in agreement with the 1080i/1080p thing, having owned both.

I'm not debating which one looks better at 1080 lines.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that most 1080i-capable sets these days are actually 768p sets (1366x768 resolution). They're actually taking the 1080i signal and degrading it to fit the lower resolution. Few people understand this -- even on sites like AVS. Heck, I didn't know this for quite some time, myself. So even if your set says it accepts 1080i, it's not actually 1080i if its resolution is 1366x768.

For me, 1080i (downscaled to 768p) is good enough at the distance I am from my TV. The only thing that bugs me about it is that some text looks edgy.

In all truth, I find 1080p LCDs operating at 24hz make films look far too much like video, for my taste. Animation looks cooler, but films... on LCD at 24hz... yuck!

Are there 768 sets that can even accept a 1080p signal?

Sorry - Can't Resist!:D

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/sony-hd-dvd.jpg

Cool!:) Here I thought that I was out of the HDM game. I have that exact same player in my set-up:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/Zoodles95/Home%20Pics/DSC04552.jpg

Here I thought I had an upconvertor. It turns out that Sony was goint dual format the whole time!:D

Just the same I am so darn tempted to either pick up a player from one of the two sides or an OPPO to improve my upconversion performance until the smoke clears a bit.

Man, what to do...

Cool!:) Here I thought I had an upconvertor. It turns out that Sony was goint dual format the whole time!:D

Just the same I am so darn tempted to either pick up a player from one of the two sides or an OPPO to improve my upconversion performance until the smoke clears a bit.

Man, what to do...

Do you currently rent from either NF or BBI or HV for your DVD's?

Sorry - Can't Resist!:D

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/sony-hd-dvd.jpg

Classic. Priceless. However you want to say it.

"Sony HD-DVD Player" Just wow.

Are there 768 sets that can even accept a 1080p signal?
Tons of them.

In fact, many even support 1080p24 inputs.

I don't think now is the time for any differentiation for the public. Let them buy what they think is HD. They'll eventually figure it out when they buy a HD DVD or BD disc or maybe upconveresion will be so good, they will think it is HD. Who cares.. It is too early to care.

Let players trickle into the market and when each side has 10 or 20 million players out there, then awareness will grow as more word of mouth spreads between friends and the companys will step up ads and PR and players will be even cheaper. HD DVD and BD players are so slow and quirky, they're not even ready for the average consumer. HDMI...another nightmare.. Only those that have a vague interent in HD even know HD requires a specialized player.

I was showing a couple of my employees my theater on my website. I told them I had Blu Ray and HD DVD players. The gals new of Blu Ray but didn't recognize HD DVD... but one said, "Blu Ray is better than HD"..... Of course, I let that slide..:D

I don't think now is the time for any differentiation for the public. Let them buy what they think is HD. They'll eventually figure it out when they buy a HD DVD or BD disc or maybe upconveresion will be so good, they will think it is HD. Who cares.. It is too early to care.

Let players trickle into the market and when each side has 10 or 20 million players out there, then awareness will grow as more word of mouth spreads between friends and the companys will step up ads and PR and players will be even cheaper. HD DVD and BD players are so slow and quirky, they're not even ready for the average consumer. HDMI...another nightmare.. Only those that have a vague interent in HD even know HD requires a specialized player.

I was showing a couple of my employees my theater on my website. I told them I had Blu Ray and HD DVD players. The gals new of Blu Ray but didn't recognize HD DVD... but one said, "Blu Ray is better than HD"..... Of course, I let that slide..:D

Well Jeff - I have to agree with you. Too soon to get the general public involved with HDM just for a single fact. It is not problem free yet. Still too many firmware upgrades for both formats. The public has never seen one of these before. Plus they would have to learn all the tricks to make the disc play:D

Funny story - was speaking to an old friend of mine who knew I used to have a big HT in my home. He asked me what I was up to. Told him and asked him about HD DVD and Blu Ray. And he asked me; "Lee didn't you have a Sting Ray?" (I used to own a 1963 Corvette.):D

As a matter of fact I once posted a picture of it here at AVS back in 2000. A black conv.

Dude Lee,

Have you been missing your doomsday suppressant supplement?

Dude Lee,

Have you been missing your doomsday suppressant supplement?

Do you honestly believe the public is going to . .

1. Understand Firmware upgrades?

2. Stand for all the problems that they cure?

3. What happens when it takes 40 seconds to load?

From the people with the blinking "12:00" on their VCR's.

PS: Did you just watch Point Break again?:rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe the public is going to . .

1. Understand Firmware upgrades?

2. Stand for all the problems that they cure?

3. What happens when it takes 40 seconds to load?

From the people with the blinking "12:00" on their VCR's.

PS: Did you just watch Point Break again?:rolleyes:

The "Dude Lee" line has stuck with me and made my wife look at me funny when I literally fell out of my computer chair laughing when I read that little conversation. :D

Anyways, IMO

Where is the HDM mass marketing?

Waiting in the wings.

We are essentially beta testing HDM for Sony and Tosh.

Sony/Tosh are not going to fully push/market this medium until all firmware/BD vers are all ironed out.

They are creating buzz now with this "war", and the inflated player costs are there for a reason. To keep J6P at bay.

Keep it just in the wee corner of the publics eye for another year until BD spec is complete and HD DVD needs no firmware updates. Ever.

The mass marketing will not begin until this^^^ is ironed out.
CEMs know early adopters are savvy enough to do the firmware thing.

Holiday 08 will be the push. DF $199 entry level player. Place your bets now.

Toshiba now manufactures the cell processor right? (found in PS3)
That gives them a vested interest in BD and HD DVD.

Sony has interest in HD DVD because they manufacture optical disc players.

More discs available the better.

<Broad strokes below folks>
Studios favor BD due to the tougher encryption and region coding.
Consumers favor HD DVD because of the region free status, low cost, and less DRM.

Both will survive and DF players will be common place.

HD DVD will serve to provide cost effective HDM.
BD will serve to provide "Criterion, Superbit, Ultimate" type releases.

The recent press releases should prove this. They are showing their cards now.

Now for speculation:
Wag the dog.

The war is the only thing newsworthy about HDM right now.
LD had no competition therefore not in the news.
Divx was bad idea from conception.

These companies know this.

What better way to get the publics attention?

WAR! Red, White and Blu style.

5 years from now we will look back and laugh. After the laughter we will then watch a double feature; Casino Royale and Transformers in the same player, different colored cases.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that the PS3 and 1.1 BD players could be DF with a firmware update.

Can any insider or "smart guy" confirm or deny this?

Chances of this happening anytime soon is more than fubar, if it is so simple. (HD DVD licensing would be a whole different topic, I'm just speaking in terms of physical components.)

But with this in mind, I really think DF will be the future, as the extra cost would be so little, no CEM would not make their optical disc player DF.

Tons of them.

In fact, many even support 1080p24 inputs.
WOW!

Where the he11 have I been.

WOW!

Where the he11 have I been.

Tis true sketcha, I own a 768p Plasma and it accepts 1080p24 from my PS3.

As for what it does with the signal....magic I think....or not.:confused:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that the PS3 and 1.1 BD players could be DF with a firmware update.

Can any insider or "smart guy" confirm or deny this?

Chances of this happening anytime soon is more than fubar, if it is so simple. (HD DVD licensing would be a whole different topic, I'm just speaking in terms of physical components.)

There is a different laser pickup on HD DVD and BD players due to the construction of the HD discs themselves. The DF player uses a new pickup that can read all four 5" formats

But with this in mind, I really think DF will be the future, as the extra cost would be so little, no CEM would not make their optical disc player DF.

Until such time that the DF player reaches mass adoption pricing . . . if it can . . . it is an expensive EA product.