Howdy,

I'm just curious...
I had a professional installer come hang my plasma and install in-wall speakers. Two of the speakers had to be moved and the drywall re-cut for install. The installer is claiming that he isn't responsible for the damage done. I am having a hard time buying into that. I will say that the install was done over my fireplace but he never told me prior to install that there was a potential for this. The photo is for the left side speaker....the right side has the same damage.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bakeman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/walldamageleftside.jpg

not sure what we are looking at here. are those holes in the wall? tell us what the damage is and what his explanation for the damage was.

if this was one of the big box store installs the first thing you do is call them and complain. find out what the process is for making a claim for damages.

later.

No way I would put up with that. Not acceptable. The installer screwed up, and needs to fix that (patch and paint).

No way I would put up with that. Not acceptable. The installer screwed up, and needs to fix that (patch and paint).

Agreed.

If he was fixing your car and messed up and punctured your tire, you would want the tire fixed/replaced. Same holds here.

Looks like he started to cut the hole and ran into a stud. Why else would he need to move it a few inches. Imaging?

Yes, if it's a place like BestBuy, call them and complain. Maybe have a professional drywall dude give you a price and submit that to the company.

Who does the installer think is responsible for repairing holes that he cut into your wall? That is the question that I want to know the answer to.

Did'nt the installer have $5.00 stud finder......:confused:
Would not be hard to fix - but stick it to the installer that did it.

That's ridiculous. The installer needs to fix this, no doubt about it. Who was this clown, you say?

While I think that the installer should have patched the wall as part of their install service, I also think people are going a bit over board if they think that only a complete idiot would need to recut a drywall hole. I have had numerous experiences where even with the help of a stud finder I would discover some other obstruction once I made the hole. PVC pipe, electrical cables, venting, a shallow wall stud space have caused me to relocate/re-cut things. For all we know when he cut the second hole, he hit something that he didn't expect and therefore need to recut both holes to balance things.

I would take a look at the contract as to what is covered and what isn't before calling. Best case they send someone to patch your wall. Worse case it takes you 20 minutes and $5 worth of materials to do it yourself.

I didnt see anyone mention the installer was an idiot, but I get your point.

Personally, I say the guy is a clown not because he cut in the wrong place, but rather, because he intends to make the customer believe it is not his job to repair the mess! HE'S A CLOWN I SAY! :)

The guy is an idiot simply because hes trying to tell his customer he isnt responsible for something he clearly messed up. If you mess something up you fix it. Pretty simple if you ask me. Hopefully you wont say this was the "Professional" best buy installer.

He's a "professional" installer only because he charged you money for this. Other than that, he is in no way "professional". I wonder what else he did incorrectly. Small claims court is a good place for this. I wouldn't suggest you have the installer fix the problem, rather go get three bids from professional drywallers or remodelling contractors (NARI members), pay to have it done and go to court to collect.

scmomentum,

What was the reason the speakers had to be moved?

He had to move the speakers because he ran into some plumbing behind the drywall that his studfinder did not detect. He was quite emphatic that this was not his responsibility. I am tempted to put a stop payment on the check and then see what his reaction is. My drywaller is coming tomorrow to repair...so I guess I'll wait and see the cost of the damages first.

~Dave

He mentioned that this the potential during install, well after the fact.

What matters is what does the contract say? if it says - exploratory holes are often required in retrofit inwall wiring/speakers- and their company does not do drywall repair - then they are off the hook. Yes it would be more professional for them to sub out the drywaller and coordinate the repair and include it in the price up front (or they may just refer and you pay direct). A skilled drywall/paint guy can make it look like the hole was never there - matched paint and texture. Yes it is unprofessional to not mention this could be required - and certainly a more experience speaker hole cutter would know to drill a hole and rotate a coat hanger looking for obstructions.

I would look at your contract before you stop payment - if it says they are not responsible - they are not. They do not need to verbally say it if it is in the contract - what matters is what did you sign say! It depends on if you are acting as the general contractor and coordinating the trades for your HT - or if they are taking on that role.

Well the interesting thing to note is that there wasn't a contract....only an estimate for the speakers and labor to install. I am going to assume because there wasn't a contract and they did not tell me beforehand there was potential for this, that they are responsible. Please tell me if I am wrong? Thanks in advance for all the help.

~Dave

Well that's the core of the problem. Without any signed document you really don't have much recourse. You could go to small claims court, but without knowing the case law in your community, I would have no clue if you have a valid claim or not.

Judge Judy

http://www.judgejudy.com/assets/profiles/judy_left.jpg

Submit your case:
http://www.judgejudy.com/SubmitCase/submitcase.asp

By the way did you ever see the offending plumbing item? If not I would pull out the speakers and taking a look. He may just be blowing smoke because he mis-cut the holes.

I dissagree with everyone who wants to lynch the installer.

The potential for this happening should be obvious unless you pre-wired for it. Especially around fireplaces. No big revelation there. Stud finders don't give you x-ray vision into the walls, and I'm pretty sure the guy is a human being after all.

However, from experience I always clearly state that in a retro-fit installation, sometimes holes need to be cut and drywall repairs will potentially need to be made to get things where the client wants them. If this risk is unacceptable, then perhaps you need to rethink where and how you want to have your system installed.

I don't see why litigation is the answer here, you can easily go get a $5 tub of spackle and fix it yourself. Is it really worth the guy getting sued and probably losing his job over? Geeze..

Are you even happy with the system, or are you so bitter over a little drywall damage that doesn't even matter?

Is it worth him getting sued, Yes it is, not for the dollar value but because he should have fixed it in the first place.

You come into my home, you make a hole in the wall, you fix it end of story. He says he is not responsible, who the heck does he think IS?

To the OP, never do anything without a contract. and Never let someone like Best Buy or Circuit City install anything period.

My take of this issue is that while it may be "industry practice" to not be responsible for "Unforeseen" difficulties, AKA a pipe, that requires some drywall repair. I'd say that this company is sloppy in it's business practice if it doesn't state this in writing up front.

Without the existence of either a verbal or written disclaimer addressing this issue I'd say the original poster has some rights.

If I was the manager of this business I'd fix this one without complaint immediately and modify my business practices to include written agreements to limit responsibility in the future.

I'm not bitter, I'm pissed.
The guy who did the install owns the company. Not Best Buy or anything like that. A company that owns three vans/trucks for this type of custom/professional install. No contract or verbal mention that there was potential for this. Like it was said before...drill a small hole and probe with hanger/wire for obstructions or use some sore of bore scope. Small holes are much easier to repair than the damage he has done.

Be careful with that though. He might just try to put a lean on your house.

DO NOT STOP PAYMENT ON THE CHECK. Sorry to shout but it is important. In many states it is a crime to stop payment on a check. He did provide the services you requested. You have a counterclaim for damages he caused your walls. But, in many states, you cannot offset one payment for the other.

It is highly unlikely you will be prosecuted for stopping payment on a check (if it's illegal in your state) but why take the chance. Just go to small claims court as Dennis recommends and present your case to the judge.

In my opinion, if there is no written agreement and no testimony indicating you were told that such damage was a possibility, you have a good case.

If, on the other hand, he told you such damage might occur, you may lose.

It will cost you $50.00 to file and serve the small claims suit so just do it.

I think the Missouri Bar requires me to say that this is not legal advice, you are not my client nor I your lawyer, and I am posting this only as a citizen based on my understanding of Missouri law. You should seek guidance from a lawyer in your state for an accurate answser to your question.

Patrick

I already stopped payment. I am writing him a letter explaining. If he wants to take me to court, fine. I am going to pay minus the repair work unless he negotiates in good faith. I may get bit in the end, but I doubt it.

Sorry, it is a matter of principle. I fully realize that principle and the law rarely go hand in hand but we'll see and I will keep you posted.

Heck, I'll take another angle here....

I routinely run into this type of thing as a weekend warrior in the home repair/upgrade department. Many of my jobs require multiple trips to Big Orange or Big Blue. I guess that makes me a "professional installer"!

I agree with many who have said...he put the holes there, and he should fix them!. I find it really hard to believe that the installer would have walked away w/o fixing these holes.

Take a few minutes to watch Holmes on Homes and you get a good view into what passes for "professional" home repair these days. {Thanks to the anonymous AVS poster who recommeded this show in some thread I read a few months ago}.

Once you figure the cost involved with stopping a check (most banks charge for this), filing a small court claim, taking time away from work and still potentially loosing, I still think it's just better to fix the drywall yourself. Certainly file a complaint with the local BBB. So sure, put pressure on him to fix the issue, but don't let this relatively minor issue ruin your day.

Take a few minutes to watch Holmes on Homes and you get a good view into what passes for "professional" home repair these days. {Thanks to the anonymous AVS poster who recommeded this show in some thread I read a few months ago}.

Heck yeah! Holmes on Homes is one of my favorite shows! I watch it everyday when I get home from work. It definitely will give you a great idea of what things should be like and how to tell when things start to go sour.

I already stopped payment. I am writing him a letter explaining. If he wants to take me to court, fine. I am going to pay minus the repair work unless he negotiates in good faith. I may get bit in the end, but I doubt it.

Sorry, it is a matter of principle. I fully realize that principle and the law rarely go hand in hand but we'll see and I will keep you posted.

I agree with this approach. He did not provide the service you requested. Unless you requested holes in your wall that needed to be repaired. I'd also report the company to the Better Business Bureau too.

I say instead of spending the money on canceling the check, and taking them to court. Take a small advertisement out in your local newpaper reporting the mishap with the installer.

He mentioned that this the potential during install above a fireplace.

In other words, he warned you that this might happen, and you ok'd him to proceed.

This thread is chock full of armchair lawyers who don't really know the law regarding contracts, and more importantly, do not know all the facts. You've only heard one side of the story and you've rushed to judgement. Were you there? Did you witness all the communications? Have you seen ALL the evidence or just what our OP wanted to share? Have you talked to the installer and gotten his side of what happened? Yes, there was a contract. There is ALWAYS a contract whenever anyone buys a service or product in this country.

$160? Why are you wasting your time?

I say instead of spending the money on canceling the check, and taking them to court. Take a small advertisement out in your local newpaper reporting the mishap with the installer.

Great idea. The advertisement will cost him a great deal more than the stop payment order + the drywall repair, and also open him to potential liability in a defamation suit.:rolleyes:

In other words, he warned you that this might happen, and you ok'd him to proceed.

This thread is chock full of armchair lawyers who don't really know the law regarding contracts, and more importantly, do not know all the facts. You've only heard one side of the story and you've rushed to judgement. Were you there? Did you witness all the communications? Have you seen ALL the evidence or just what our OP wanted to share? Have you talked to the installer and gotten his side of what happened? Yes, there was a contract. There is ALWAYS a contract whenever anyone buys a service or product in this country.

$160? Why are you wasting your time?

ALWAYS is a very bold word. Where I live, you'll be hard pressed to EVER receive a contract for Services. Car Insurance, Home Insurance, Mortgage, etc....that's about it. Construction like this? Never...well not in my area anyway.

So, ALWAYS is a bold word.

ALWAYS is a very bold word. Where I live, you'll be hard pressed to EVER receive a contract for Services. Car Insurance, Home Insurance, Mortgage, etc....that's about it. Construction like this? Never...well not in my area anyway.

So, ALWAYS is a bold word.

Thats the thing, contracts as a legal term don't just come in paper form. There is plenty of case law dealing with verbal contracts - implied, expressed, etc. But this is an area that the lawyers can hash out. I know just enough to know that I wouldn't want to spend my time taking this to small claims when $160 (or free in my case since I'm comfortable patching drywall) would end the story.

I think that guy used to work for me....

Yes, there was a contract. There is ALWAYS a contract whenever anyone buys a service or product in this country.

With certain very few exceptions, where there isan offer, an acceptance, and consideration between two individuals not otherwise disqualified from engaging in a contract, you have a contract. Enforceability is a different matter.

In this case, yes, there was a contract (read up on UCC section 200)...and, if for less than $500 and not involving a real estate transaction, it can certainly be enforced. The question is, "what was the contract". The fact the homeowner was warned that damage could occur does not address the primary issue "who fixes the damage"? In the absence of a written contract, the court is very likely to agree with the plaintiff that, regardless of the warning, and in the absence of an specific evidence the installer clearly stated such damage would not be repaired, the damage should be repaired. The court would want to meet the tests of "reasonable", "prudent", and customary practice. Here the defendant looses.

There is a downside, however. Look at "reasonable". In this case the client was provided an "estimate", not an exact quotation. The key word is "estimate". This implies the actual cost may vary (reasonably) for any number of reasons a "prudent man" would not have foreseen. At the same time, it is also reasonable assume that if drywall damage were to occur, the estimate (or actual price) would have been increased by a reasonable amount to repair the damage.

In this case, the "installer" exercised very poor judgement. First, he doesn't work with a written contract. Second, it appears he has a problem with full disclosure of potential consequences, and their remedies. Third, telling the customer "too bad, so sad" is exceptionally poor customer relations. I think had a bit more tact been used, we'd be engrossed in much more exciting things at the moment.

If this company is a CEDIA member, file a complaint with CEDIA. They take a very dim view of such nonsense.

I would like to express my sincere appreciation for ALL the advise and words of wisdom I have received. I am hopeful that, beyond my continuing education, that this might aid others down the road prior to situations like this developing. Again, thank you very much.

He did not tell me about the potential for this before he did the work. In fact, it wasn't mentioned at all until after the damage had been done. I just want to be clear on that. The installer is a friend of a friend of my folks. He has now done install work for my folks, my uncle, and myself. The word of mouth alone made him some good money. What really irked me was his brushing it off as a standard practice amongst installers. No remorse or acknowledgement of the burden, both time and money, that this was going to cost me. Yes, $160-200 is not that big of a deal. Had he voiced some level of regret or understanding, it might be different. Had he taken the time to present a contract or verbally informed me of the potential ramifications during installment it would be a completely different story. Unfortunately, for both of us, he did not.

$165????

Can of spackle - $7
Putty knife - $3
Can of spray texture if your walls are textured - $12
Pint of color matched paint - $8

Total $30 tops! And pocket the $135 you save doing it yourself!

Not my specialty.
It was more than spackle, texture and paint. The drywall that the installer left behind needed replacement and reinforcement. I'm sure you are correct on the price as a DIY...but for me...I couldn't get it done like the way it was completed and have been satisfied.

Unless he specifically told you that he would cover repairs or that he was 100% positive that there wouldn't be any, it's your own ignorance that is liable here. He did make an attempt at fixing it, if he had left a gaping hole I might feel differently. He patched it the best he could, and probably figured a little mud and it will be fine.

Do electricians get held liable for drywall repairs when someone calls them to come add a light fixture in a finished house and they have to cut holes? I've never heard of it, and I can't imagine one that would want to do the work with that hanging over their head. The home owner accepts this and deals with it themselves. I don't know why this is any different.

I hope the huge deal you are making over this, when you could seriously just fix it yourself for <$20, is worth it in the end. Hopefully you never need service from this guy someday, I bet he would put you at the bottom of the pile or tell you to get screwed. The real winner here sounds like your drywall guy, $165 to fix that is rediculous.

Unless he specifically told you that he would cover repairs or that he was 100% positive that there wouldn't be any, it's your own ignorance that is liable here. He did make an attempt at fixing it, if he had left a gaping hole I might feel differently. He patched it the best he could, and probably figured a little mud and it will be fine.

Do electricians get held liable for drywall repairs when someone calls them to come add a light fixture in a finished house and they have to cut holes? I've never heard of it, and I can't imagine one that would want to do the work with that hanging over their head. The home owner accepts this and deals with it themselves. I don't know why this is any different.

I hope the huge deal you are making over this, when you could seriously just fix it yourself for <$20, is worth it in the end. Hopefully you never need service from this guy someday, I bet he would put you at the bottom of the pile or tell you to get screwed. The real winner here sounds like your drywall guy, $165 to fix that is rediculous.

It's a shame you feel this way. What has happened to this country. People do Shi**y work, then expect payment. Sorry the OP offends you...especially since he trusted this guy because he was a friend of a friend of his parents. This situation is what ticks me off. I work for a major Telecommunication Company and am held to an extremely high standard in my job responsibilities. There are no cutting corners, or there is a price to pay. Cutting corners could end up costing my company thousands of dollars a month in credits. Why is it OK for the Construction Professionals to weasle out of things because "The Consumer is Ignorant". Yes, we are IGNORANT, which is why we hire these people to do the job correctly in the first place.

As someone else mentioned, if you took your car in to have the oil changed, and they accidentally stabbed your tire. Then, told you AFTER THE FACT, that they are not liable for any damage they do to your car while fixing the original problem. Would you suck it up to being IGNORANT?

Yes electricians would be expected to fix hole or rather have it fixed if he cut the hole in the wrong place or otherwise left damage.

I am sure glad I can do most everything myself :)

THANKS DAD for making me the gofer all the times you worked on the house and made me help ;)

Amen W00ley. My dad was not too much of a handyman, but he tried really hard. He used to say "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right". This applied to all that he did, whether it was building fences, storing gear, hanging up clothes, or polishing shoes.

This has been ingrained in me, and my wife can usually tell that I'm about to start a project because I usually get a book about the techniques used in the project a few weeks before I start. Can you imagine how large my home improvement bookshelves are now that I own my first home and am finishing the basement myself?

You know, I never realized how good the advice was that my father passed on to me, and I never took an opportunity to thank him.

:(

My Dad added a large addition onto our house when I was a teenager and he put me to work every chance he could I HATED every minute of it but learned a lot :cool:

everyone knows now-days that if you agree to something verbally (no contract) you're asking for trouble... & i live in texas where verbal agreements are binding... although you better have a witness cuz people do... you know... LIE! i am employed by an engineering firm... we (and all companies in my profession) have litigators on staff to "fine-tooth-comb" every contract we make. If we we forget to cross a T or dot an i two things happen... 1) someone is getting fired & 2) there WILL be a loophole developed from said undotted i/uncrossed T. Either the client asks for something out-of-scope to which we half heartedly agree to do (to keep the client) or we get more $$ for the out-of-scope (cuz the T was crossed). What it boils down to is hard feelings & the mercy of the court (depending on if the judge got any that day).

I do believe the contractor in this case is feeling out HIS options.. i don't think anyone blinks here... good luck with the ensuing brawl!

dude, you are a sack of ****. making such a big deal over a simple drywall fix because you dont have the brains to cut a hole to install in-walls....

geez...it must be a pleasure dealing with you day to day.

If I were a pro installer I'd invest in one of those flexible mini-cameras with a light on the end to help fish wires and see into walls.

Since I'm not a pro installer, I find obstructions the same way your installer did. The only mistake I see here is that he didn't repair the damage when he was finished.

I do not understand why you think "mistakes have been made" relative to what work was completed or why you think the installer should sit down and hold your hand to explain that there are unforeseen conditions when punching holes in drywall.

I do find it odd that the contractor isn't just fixing this and billing you accordingly. I would think that companies that install in-wall speakers and hang TVs would run into this situation several times a day.

Not my specialty.
It was more than spackle, texture and paint. The drywall that the installer left behind needed replacement and reinforcement. I'm sure you are correct on the price as a DIY...but for me...I couldn't get it done like the way it was completed and have been satisfied.



Its funny how you say "not my specialty" then get mad at your AV guy for basically saying the same thing. They probably should have been more proactive, and they should have also had a contract explaining the policy.

Maybe you should have wondered why you are doing business without a contract.

Cutting a small hole and probing with a coat hanger may not have revealed the pipe either, these things happen when doing retro work.

Its drywall, get over it. I would be much more concerned with how the system operates. What does the equipment rack look like, is everything nice and neat and easy to service? Is the control system stable? Does it look and sound good? If the answer to those questions is yes, you should focus on that because most "Installers" cant even manage that.

I don't know the answer to the problem at hand, but I do know the "installer" is a frigging idiot. This guy is the OWNER AV installation company? You gotta be kidding me.

Ever hear of a borescope?

How about this thing (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=362-666)? It's $30.

It should absolutely be expected that the installer would return the area to it's previous state as part of the installation.

Why is it OK for the Construction Professionals to weasle out of things because "The Consumer is Ignorant". Yes, we are IGNORANT, which is why we hire these people to do the job correctly in the first place.

How many 'construction professionals' do you know install in-wall speakers for a living? What do you think the margins are in that business?

How many 'construction professionals' do you know install in-wall speakers for a living? What do you think the margins are in that business?

So, what you're saying is that it's OK to do the job halfway because the "margins" are smaller?

Superb logic.

So, what you're saying is that it's OK to do the job halfway because the "margins" are smaller?

Superb logic.

That's not at all what I said. My point is simply that you aren't going to find many 'construction professionals' in the speaker installation business. There's no barrier to entry and there's little to no profit potential...the average homeowner can do this job themselves.

Ignorance of the subject matter is no excuse. Consumers are constantly buying things they know little about. They gauge quality by something that they do understand. Unless it's something really esoteric, it's not difficult to evaluate.

guys, come on, this is an easy one....the OP is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to deal with.


Of COURSE any reasonable installer or general handy man or small business owner would have fixed this....this is how the story went:


Guy finds obstructions, has to re-cut.......

Finishes install, and the OP comes to see it....FLIPS OUT and yells at the guy and tells him he can forget about any more referrals from his family.....Installer figures its best to cut his losses than continue to deal with an impossible customer. The guy probably wasnt carrying joint compound around, OR he might need to get one of his guys who works for him to do it (probably has a guy on staff doing installs that is proficient in simple drywall repairs)...


Based on this guys posts and the fact that the installer came to him via multiple referalls from his own family, i know this guy is FOS....complete over-reaction.

I bet he gets free meals all the time in restuarants.

This is not necessarily a "mistake" that was made....

In retrofit work, there are any number of unknowns in that wall that could cause an installer to take this corrective action.

Due diligence would be in order upon undertaking any retrofit work like this.
Among the steps that should always be taken would be inspecting the opposite side of the wall, rooms above, below, and behind this wall for any plumbing fixtures, gas appliances, or electrical switch or wallbox locations (especially if your municipality requires conduit).

If there is an unfinished or drop ceiling basement space or easily accessible crawlspace below this room, then a quick investigation will begin to tell if there are issues to be concerned with.

Many times even with all of this due diligence performed, there are still issues to contend with.

Installers generally do these projects on T&M, meaning time and materials.
If this is the case, it should be clearly agreed if the installer will be hiring in subs for drywall patches and paint, and then adding them to the invoice, or if the homeowner or the GC will take care of these tasks.

If that installer is guilty of anything here, it's maybe not being detailed as a businessman.

That's not at all what I said. My point is simply that you aren't going to find many 'construction professionals' in the speaker installation business. There's no barrier to entry and there's little to no profit potential...the average homeowner can do this job themselves.


Well, that's kind of the point. I'm not paying a "Home Theater Installer" to come glue some speakers to my wall and run cable chases with double-sided tape - anyone could do that. I'm paying them to get a clean professional looking install. By your admission, I am paying $160.00 for something anyone can do. Why wouldn't I expect it to be done perfectly.

It is inconceivable that someone who cuts holes in a wall for a living never conceived he might run into an obstacle behind drywall. It is on the installer to warn the customer or fix the mess he created. It is irrelevant whether or not the mess was avoidable.

How about this analogy. If I take my car to a mechanic to get the water pump changed and they have to cut through the alternator cable to get to it, I would expect them to repair the alternator cable. Wouldn't you?

dude, you are a sack of ****. making such a big deal over a simple drywall fix because you dont have the brains to cut a hole to install in-walls....

geez...it must be a pleasure dealing with you day to day.

Was that really needed? What do you do for a living? I'm sure the OP can do things you can't, and could easily say you are dumb a** too.

Just because I can rebuild my engine doesn't mean I will if my mechanic blows it up while fixing something else.

You do know that the speakers need to come out for the drywall to be repaired properly? come on, take them out, we want to see what was behind door number 1 that caused this problem in the first place.

Please post a picture. Removing the speaker shouldn't be too hard.

dude, the OP brought this MINOR drywall issue to an internet forum, has stopped payment to the installer (to him it is a stop payment, i want my 5 minute mudding job done, to the installer it is FOOD and electricity). WHat else do you think he is doing in the real world to ride the poor installers chain.

1. Installer said their were obstructions.
2. Installer has already properly patched the hole (you can tell he used a wood strip behind it, screws above and below patch)
3. It needs 3 coats of mud and probably no sanding. Which the guy probably woudl have had done if the OP would give people a chance to make it right. He freaking stopped payment before the poor guy got home....simple and pure theft.

I will tell you how this ends up, the poor installer is going to get screwed because he probably doesnt have time to fight this, as he needs to go to work the next day to keep making a living.


Was that really needed? What do you do for a living? I'm sure the OP can do things you can't, and could easily say you are dumb a** too.

Just because I can rebuild my engine doesn't mean I will if my mechanic blows it up while fixing something else.

I think you have been both helpful and informative. You are probably easy to work for or with and I am certain that your friends think that you are one heck of a guy. You live by a different code than most. You are incredibly well spoken and express yourself in such a thought provoking manner that it leaves me speechless. You have missed your calling in life. I bet your village is proud. Thanks for your keen and helpful insight.
Good for you.



guys, come on, this is an easy one....the OP is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to deal with.


Of COURSE any reasonable installer or general handy man or small business owner would have fixed this....this is how the story went:


Guy finds obstructions, has to re-cut.......

Finishes install, and the OP comes to see it....FLIPS OUT and yells at the guy and tells him he can forget about any more referrals from his family.....Installer figures its best to cut his losses than continue to deal with an impossible customer. The guy probably wasnt carrying joint compound around, OR he might need to get one of his guys who works for him to do it (probably has a guy on staff doing installs that is proficient in simple drywall repairs)...


Based on this guys posts and the fact that the installer came to him via multiple referalls from his own family, i know this guy is FOS....complete over-reaction.

I bet he gets free meals all the time in restuarants.

Longtime,

Wasn't I married to you once?

dude, you are a sack of ****. making such a big deal over a simple drywall fix because you dont have the brains to cut a hole to install in-walls....

geez...it must be a pleasure dealing with you day to day.

dude, the OP brought this MINOR drywall issue to an internet forum, has stopped payment to the installer (to him it is a stop payment, i want my 5 minute mudding job done, to the installer it is FOOD and electricity). WHat else do you think he is doing in the real world to ride the poor installers chain.

1. Installer said their were obstructions.
2. Installer has already properly patched the hole (you can tell he used a wood strip behind it, screws above and below patch)
3. It needs 3 coats of mud and probably no sanding. Which the guy probably woudl have had done if the OP would give people a chance to make it right. He freaking stopped payment before the poor guy got home....simple and pure theft.

I will tell you how this ends up, the poor installer is going to get screwed because he probably doesnt have time to fight this, as he needs to go to work the next day to keep making a living.

I would only hope it ends up with the Installer getting screwed. At this point, the Consumer got screwed....why is it ok for the Consumer to always be the one screwed when the shotty work of installers get off scott free? I'm so sick of hearing of the COMMON PERSON getting screwed by installers and repairmen. It would be nice if we could all do EVERYTHING, but we can't. That's why he hired the guy.

As a professional installer I must say that the insttaller made a mistake. When we go in to do a retro install we tell the client that there might be dry wall damage and that we have a drywall repairman that will come behind us and fix any damage that might happen.

As a professional installer I must say that the insttaller made a mistake. When we go in to do a retro install we tell the client that there might be dry wall damage and that we have a drywall repairman that will come behind us and fix any damage that might happen.

Nice to hear. That is how a good installer should work. Or, if they don't bring in their own drywall repairmen, they should tell the consumer up front of the possibility that there will be drywall damage that the Consumer must repair. Per the OP, his installer didn't tell him that there could be problems, until after he messed up his wall.

For all those saying that drywall is easy to fix (which I agree), then a professional installer should have no problems fixing it when they destroy it.

momentum... for what it's worth... if i were in your shoes i would have done the same thing (plus maybe a punch in the nose)

If anyone did an install like that in my house they wouldnt be getting any money from me. That is why you never pay up front, at last not more than Half.

That kind of stuff happens all the time in construction type work, once they get your money they leave.

The builder of my sisters house didn't install the proper floor joist and the floor started to sag and the wall started to crack, amongst many other problems with the house which was brand new. Anyways, he wouldnt come and fix it he even rejected certified mail and came up with all kinds of excuses. He would fix it until they got a lawyer to call him. When he did fix it he drilled a hole in their wood floor, which by what some are saying here you wouldnt expect him to fix. His way of fixing it was to fill it in with some type of putty, which after many more arguments he finally came out and replaced it with a new peice of wood.

In their case they had already bought the house so they couldnt inly pay half. Most private contractors that are good will charge once work is done or charge half up front or pay for supplies up front then labor when finished. If your required to pay all costs up front that is never a good thing.

Also, why did the installer need to drill so many holes to find a plumbing problem?

Also, why did the installer need to drill so many holes to find a plumbing problem?

I don't think those are holes but rather drywall screw heads.

Howdy,

I'm just curious...
I had a professional installer come hang my plasma and install in-wall speakers. Two of the speakers had to be moved and the drywall re-cut for install. The installer is claiming that he isn't responsible for the damage done. I am having a hard time buying into that. I will say that the install was done over my fireplace but he never told me prior to install that there was a potential for this. The photo is for the left side speaker....the right side has the same damage.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bakeman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/walldamageleftside.jpg

If some unforeseen obstruction was there, it looks like the installer did a good job of prepping the wall for a drywaller to come in and repair the wall. (What you see is drywall screws holding up the drywall piece to the original wall with a wood strip on the back).

Some custom installers will do a little drywall work, but it may be necessary for you to hire another tradesman to do work outside of the scope. The same would be true if you need a new electrical outlet (some custom installers won't do electrical work). Most will have a recommendation or two for you. I'd hope the installer said he could arrange to get it done - I'm just wondering if the OP would have been willing to pay for it anyway.

Think of it like you would with any other trade. If you have a problem with plumbing, would you expect the plumber to fix your drywall (or want him to?) Likewise, if an electrician had to get at some wiring to move something for you, minor drywall work like this may be required. They should make recommendations or make arrangements (that the OP would pay for), but you can't expect the guy to do all the drywall work.

Carl

If your claiming to be a professional installer, I am using professional loosely, you should have the proper tools to do the job properly. If I was hiring someone to install In-wall speakers I would expect a pilot hole need to be drilled to check for problems I wouldnt expect numerous holes, in any case after putting holes in the wall the installer should have been able to find the problem before he started cutting out the openeing for the speaker. Still in any case after the holes were made and the drywall was cut I would still expect the holes to be repaired as part of the job. A peice of pipe is not to be unexpecting when doing such an install, pipes, studs, wires & etc. are all know to be in walls. He should have been able to find the pipe with any one of the holes made before he started cutting the drywall, in any case the bottom line is he should have patched the holes and damage to complete the job properly.

I do not understand why you think "mistakes have been made" relative to what work was completed or why you think the installer should sit down and hold your hand to explain that there are unforeseen conditions when punching holes in drywall.


EVERY roofing quote I've ever recieved (verbal or written) has specifically stated that the work is to remove (if there are already two layers) and add a layer of shingles and that repairs to any damage uncoverd to the sheathing is NOT included.

The roofers do it, why wouldn't this guy?

I can't believe that the installer is so perfect in his work that this is the first time he's ever run into this problem.

I also think the OP has somewhat over reacted.

This is why the lawyers are the only ones who make out in these kinds of arguments.

Tom

Tom I want to make sure you don't end this thread.

This is just about as good as the Bluray versus HD DVD debates.

We need more picures.

I find it strange that anyone would think that what we saw in the OP's pic was acceptable. The whole point of having someone else do an install is to do it correctly. If someone came into your home, and did that, you would just pay up and be happy? Really? Come on.

I agree with the OP,
Lurker, if the installer really was so hard up and this job would take food off his table you can be SURE he would do a great job every time to make sure his business is a success.

I'm just saying that I'm giving the professional installer the benefit of the doubt here. If he has 3 vans and an established business - he would not have gotten to that point if everything is just as the OP described. His work is getting trashed without him being able to defend himself.

I can just see a situation where an estimate was given. Actual charges are time and materials. Installer finds something in the wall that won't allow the depth of the speaker to be installed. He moves the speaker location (maybe both b/c they have to match on either side of the fireplace) as any professional would do.

He explains to the homeowner what he found and the OP refuses to pay anything beyond original quote. Or, he left a check for the estimate and the installer would not do more work (or sub out the drywall work) until he is compensated. The installer probably says that he can have the hole fixed and it will be added to the bill or the OP can hire someone of his choosing (or fix himself). OP freaks out (despite this being time and materials) and starts posting on AVS and anywhere else that people will listen.

Of course, what the OP is showing in the picture is not acceptable as a finished product. I'm just saying that there is always another side of the story and this poor installer doesn't seem to have many people defending him.

Carl

I think the moral of the story is - Don't use in-wall speakers! :D

No, the moral is if you want retro work of any kind done expect that drywall damage can occur. Deal with it accordingly before and after. Simple.

If some unforeseen obstruction was there, it looks like the installer did a good job of prepping the wall for a drywaller to come in and repair the wall. (What you see is drywall screws holding up the drywall piece to the original wall with a wood strip on the back).

Some custom installers will do a little drywall work, but it may be necessary for you to hire another tradesman to do work outside of the scope. The same would be true if you need a new electrical outlet (some custom installers won't do electrical work). Most will have a recommendation or two for you. I'd hope the installer said he could arrange to get it done - I'm just wondering if the OP would have been willing to pay for it anyway.

Think of it like you would with any other trade. If you have a problem with plumbing, would you expect the plumber to fix your drywall (or want him to?) Likewise, if an electrician had to get at some wiring to move something for you, minor drywall work like this may be required. They should make recommendations or make arrangements (that the OP would pay for), but you can't expect the guy to do all the drywall work.

Carl

Carl,

Absolutely, I would have paid had I known. I was kind of stunned that after a couple grand worth of work, that he walked out the door shrugging his shoulders saying "Sorry, that's just the way it is".

Also, his drywall patchwork had to be completely redone. It was done incorrectly.

I didn't expect him to do drywall work but like one of the guys previously said how about making arrangements to have the work completed so that the finished product looks like it should. I'd be embarrassed as a professional to walk out the door after collecting near $3000 (I had other work done) and having it look like it did. And then to say, "Oh well"? It's just not right.

I mean if the job to repair is so easy and costs so little to do, why wouldn't he have made arrangements to complete the project, explain to me what happened, and then everyone is happy? As a professional myself, I'd think that is part of being a pro.

No, the moral is if you want retro work of any kind done expect that drywall damage can occur. Deal with it accordingly before and after. Simple.
I guess as the client this is solely my responsibility.

If he had started in the business just yesterday, then maybe...but, he has an established practice. IMHO, his behavior and attitude are inexplainable as a result.

Carl,

Absolutely, I would have paid had I known. I was kind of stunned that after a couple grand worth of work, that he walked out the door shrugging his shoulders saying "Sorry, that's just the way it is".

I didn't expect him to do drywall work but like one of the guys previously said how about making arrangements to have the work completed so that the finished product looks like it should. I'd be embarrassed as a professional to walk out the door after collecting near $3000 (I had other work done) and having it look like it did. And then to say, "Oh well"? It's just not right.

I mean if the job to repair is so easy and costs so little to do, why wouldn't he have made arrangements to complete the project, explain to me what happened, and then everyone is happy? As a professional myself, I'd think that is part of being a pro.

Would you be willing to Private Message me the installer's contact information?

Amen W00ley. My dad was not too much of a handyman, but he tried really hard. He used to say "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right". This applied to all that he did, whether it was building fences, storing gear, hanging up clothes, or polishing shoes.

This has been ingrained in me, and my wife can usually tell that I'm about to start a project because I usually get a book about the techniques used in the project a few weeks before I start. Can you imagine how large my home improvement bookshelves are now that I own my first home and am finishing the basement myself?

You know, I never realized how good the advice was that my father passed on to me, and I never took an opportunity to thank him.

:(

I think you just thanked him!

No, the moral is if you want retro work of any kind done expect that drywall damage can occur. Deal with it accordingly before and after. Simple.

I would say that the moral is:

1. If you're an installer, make sure you present your client with a written contract that spells out in detail exactly who is responsible for what, including all conventional clauses about dispute resolution, arbitration, etc. Go over every section with the client and make sure you both agree on the meaning. Both parties sign and the client gets a copy.

2. If you're a client, insist on #1.

I would say that the moral is:

1. If you're an installer, make sure you present your client with a written contract that spells out in detail exactly who is responsible for what, including all conventional clauses about dispute resolution, arbitration, etc. Go over every section with the client and make sure you both agree on the meaning. Both parties sign and the client gets a copy.

2. If you're a client, insist on #1.

I would say the moral is don't post on the internet. Some of you have been brutal on the OP. Perhaps you are contractors that have run into issues before. I know this forum is filled with DIY types, but there are a lot of people who simply prefer to pay someone to do things for them. We all do it. Some of us pay for our grass to be cut, some of us pay for our oil to be changed, some of us do all of that ourselves. Layoff the guy if he doesn't have the desire and/or knowledge to correct the issue.

If we take the OP at his word (which is all we have) then he was not told that this could happen prior to work beginning. Therefore, the contractor should have included the cost for this in his quote and simply fixed it.

If the contractor mentioned at the beginning that there could be extra charges or drywall patching that would need to be done by the homeowner if he ran into obstructions, thats a different story.

How would you like it if your car was at jiffy lube for an oil change and when your car was done there was oil all over your seat and steering wheel. Sorry, there is a risk of me getting oil on my hands with this type of job.....

I'm just saying that I'm giving the professional installer the benefit of the doubt here. If he has 3 vans and an established business - he would not have gotten to that point if everything is just as the OP described. His work is getting trashed without him being able to defend himself.

I can just see a situation where an estimate was given. Actual charges are time and materials. Installer finds something in the wall that won't allow the depth of the speaker to be installed. He moves the speaker location (maybe both b/c they have to match on either side of the fireplace) as any professional would do.

He explains to the homeowner what he found and the OP refuses to pay anything beyond original quote. Or, he left a check for the estimate and the installer would not do more work (or sub out the drywall work) until he is compensated. The installer probably says that he can have the hole fixed and it will be added to the bill or the OP can hire someone of his choosing (or fix himself). OP freaks out (despite this being time and materials) and starts posting on AVS and anywhere else that people will listen.

Of course, what the OP is showing in the picture is not acceptable as a finished product. I'm just saying that there is always another side of the story and this poor installer doesn't seem to have many people defending him.

Carl
I totally agree with both your posts.

Installers are technicians, not F'N Magicians.

I only speak for myself. I tell my clients up front that drywall repair may be required and that if it occurs I will patch (as in the photo), but not mud and finish. That's for another trade that I can either recommend or it's up to the client to have finished.

So even though installers have exploratory techniques, it's not always fool proof.

Fix the drywall and enjoy your new speakers.

What type of plumbing did he run into? If it was PVC, I can see his studfinder not picking it up but at the same time I would expect a PVC pipe be large enough that an exploratory hole and a length of coat hanger to expose. If it was copper tubing his studfinder would have picked it up. Seems pretty hack to me.

Would you be willing to Private Message me the installer's contact information?

No response from the OP, scmomentum, yet. Still waiting...

Carl

I would say the moral is don't post on the internet. Some of you have been brutal on the OP. Perhaps you are contractors that have run into issues before. I know this forum is filled with DIY types, ....

you are getting there :)

inevitable result of the growth of the forums, it's just quite interesting how this place has changed over the years....

it's just quite interesting how this place has changed over the years....

Yes, the general level of knowledge has decreased quite noticeably since I joined 6 years ago.