I keep seeing posts where people are complaining about the high costs of HDM software. And they keep comparing the cost of an HDM movie to a DVD movie.

If I were a studio head - I would feel totally justified in charging more for a HDM movie because I am offerring more than a DVD in all specs.

I think people are very quick to forget as well.
None of the media the proceded it stated out as cheap as it is now. But everyone has gotten used to $15 media and with sales $5. Well it has taken a long time for it to get to this point. Will HDM get there I am sure it will but it will be a few years away.
I think we have gotten to the point we want everything and want it now. Who cares that costs need to be recouped. That is not our problem. Which I must say is very sad.

I really don't mind getting them for $19.99, but that's what they all should be IMO, not just on Amazon. If Best Buy wants to stay the grand pooh-bah of HD, they should shoot for that as the standard, they might actually get some of my $ again.

I totally understand they need to charge more, but it should not be twice the price of the dvd. 5-10 dollars seems reasonable.

Most titles should be 19.95 normal. Some of the blockbusters day-and-date releases/directors cuts could be 24.95

Does anyone disagree with this...

"If SD DVDs and HDM discs are priced the same, a studio will make more on the SD disc because it is cheaper to make".

To me it makes sense for a studio to stick it to the suckers who will pay high prices for HDM while still making huge profits from DVDs.

Once they have proof that people will only purchase HDM and skip the low priced DVD, the price will come down.

I know, it stinks.

I would love to see the sales numbers when they have the special two for one sales.

C.C. had one a few weeks ago and many people nearly cleaned out the stock.

I would suspect that a low price would really help sales.

You have to remember that once you get beyond commodity items, price have very little to do with cost. Studios will charge what they think the customer will pay regardless of what it cost them to make that product. So all this talk of how much it costs to make Blu-ray or HD DVD means very little when it comes down to how they are priced.

A much more fair comparison would be to compare HDM prices to what DVD prices were back in its first 2 years of existence. They are very similar. Remember those barebones Fox dvds that had a retail price of $34.99?

Even now, there are still certain 2-disc dvd sets that have a retail listing of $39.99, same as most new release HDM titles.

We didn't see dvd movie prices drop until the user base grew. The same will happen with the HD formats.

600% more pixels for 50% more money... sounds like a deal to me ;)

You should have seen the D-theater prices....

I get worked up with everyone complaining about price. Gracious people, these things should cost twice what they do. I think people get sour more because of the investment they made in their DVD libraries and they are now realizing that they are going to end up replacing all of them. Either way, $28 for the most expensive of HDM is by no means expensive. As was mentioned earlier, Fox used to charge more for their SD DVDs. If the cost is too high you could always go back to SD. Oh wait. You can't. You could never go back once you got a taste.

There is always a tax on early adopters. I think we have some people in the fold here that are not used to being early adopters.

A much more fair comparison would be to compare HDM prices to what DVD prices were back in its first 2 years of existence. They are very similar. Remember those barebones Fox dvds that had a retail price of $34.99?

Even now, there are still certain 2-disc dvd sets that have a retail listing of $39.99, same as most new release HDM titles.

We didn't see dvd movie prices drop until the user base grew. The same will happen with the HD formats.

I bought a DVD player shortly after introduction. In fact it was during the era you got free movies with the player purchase. So it was very similar to where HDM is today. I also remember buying several DVDs at the same time that were not new releases, but not exactly old either. Terminator 2, Basic Instinct, and Twister were 3 in particular. None of those cost me more than $12 or so, and many times I would buy half a dozen in a B2GO sale and end up with six movies for maybe fifty dollars shipped.

My point is that HDM does in fact cost more now than DVD did then. Maybe this isn't true for the most expensive DVDs of the late 90's, but for the majority of what was available then it is true. I think any more than $20 or $25 for a movie is more than the mainstream market will bear, regardless of the format. Those are the circumstances HDM faces. People have already been conditioned at certain price points, going back to the days of VHS. DVD has reinforced those price points. No matter how good HDM looks, it won't sell well above those points.

MSRP is too high but Amazon prices are fine. BB is never competitive price-wise in my experience, but Target (and similar stores) should have prices closer to Amazon. However, at the end of the day, I buy from Amazon and price has not stopped me from buying a single HD disc I wanted. I would buy more from Target is prices were better, and there would likely be a few more impulse buys as well.

I think the MSRP prices are right in line for what you get.... 1080P video, lossless sound on a small disc. Prices will fall in time but they beat the hell out of LD / D-Theater prices.. The low player prices are skewing what people think is expensive for media.

High prices? What high prices?

I have a total of 32 movies on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. My overall average cost per movie is $18.25. And that includes GITS: Innocence that I imported from Japan for $70. Take that movie out of the mix and my average cost drops to $16.50 per movie!

I wouldn't call that high at all. In fact, I think it's a pretty good value.

By cutting prices on budget DVD titles so aggressively to boost volume, the studios have effectively devalued their products. It seems like they are trying to undo this by starting over with HDM, but the proverbial horse has left the barn. It is difficult for consumers to convince themselves to pay a large premium to see it in HD, especially when they know the movie will soon be available for $6 on DVD, either used, or in a bargain bin. On more than one occasion I have walked past a retail HDM display only to see the same titles in the DVD bargain bins for 1/4 the cost. A kind of market saturation seems to have taken place with the proliferation of cheap DVDs. It is tough to convince consumers to spend substantially more when so many of them think of HDM as the natural evolution of the now mature DVD technology.

High prices? What high prices?

I have a total of 32 movies on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. My overall average cost per movie is $18.25. And that includes GITS: Innocence that I imported from Japan for $70. Take that movie out of the mix and my average cost drops to $16.50 per movie!

I wouldn't call that high at all. In fact, I think it's a pretty good value.

I think the MSRP prices are right in line for what you get.... 1080P video, lossless sound on a small disc. Prices will fall in time but they beat the hell out of LD / D-Theater prices.. The low player prices are skewing what people think is expensive for media.


Well both of these posts sort of sum it up.

The problem is that this is being marketed to the mainstream consumer in both retail outlets and on television, etc. The issue is twofold.

1. Cheap players set unreasonable expectations on media cost. This is bigger problem for HD DVD in general due to the lower cost of entry. Show the consumer value in the player, but not on the media means you've got alot of Upconverters out there.

2. You have to search for the deals. The B&M outlets are gouging the heck out of the media. You can find better deals if you are looking for them, but lets be honest, most of the consumers still buy their media @ either a Big Box Electronics store or somewhere like Wally's.

It's a fragmented marketing plan @ best... The media is going to have to come down in price if you want to see serious numbers. I've talked to many about these formats and every single time, that's what I get. The movies are too expensive.

I too feel that $20 for a movie is a very reasonable price to pay for what we are getting. And it is $5.00 more than a DVD.

Yet look at something like Blade Runner. 4 HD discs. 1 DVD - bigger case - $39.99 MSRP. THAT is the deal of ALL the 1000 titles released on HDM SI.

The conditioning issue - if HDM were equal to DVD - I would understand it. But it is not equal in any way. We have to expect to pay more to get more and I see so far - most agree with this.

Because we are EA's and because this is not our first format. Nor our second. Many of us here - this is our thrid and even 4th format.

And as has been stated - people have lost their patience with the speed of life.

A much more fair comparison would be to compare HDM prices to what DVD prices were back in its first 2 years of existence. They are very similar. Remember those barebones Fox dvds that had a retail price of $34.99?

Even now, there are still certain 2-disc dvd sets that have a retail listing of $39.99, same as most new release HDM titles.

We didn't see dvd movie prices drop until the user base grew. The same will happen with the HD formats.

Yep, and another factor people may overlook is that DVDs, because of their mass-market status, can be loss leaders. Most new releases cost at least $20 (or more for the separate 2-disc set) in stores, but they are often on sale for $16-17 or something like that for the first week. HD discs aren't popular enough yet to get those discounts, probably because they don't bring enough traffic to the store to be effective. I don't remember DVDs being loss leaders until at least 1999.

One thing I'm disappointed about though, is that we haven't seen any real price drops. There have been sales and B1G1 deals, but I don't think the actual MSRP has dropped on anything yet. Walk into a store today and the price for even one of the earliest titles like Phantom of the Opera or The Last Samurai is the same as it was more than a year and a half ago. It's especially bad for titles that were released day and date last year but are still priced as new releases, like Firewall or Rumor Has It (not that I'd buy either of those at any price ;)). Anything over six months old should be priced as a catalog title now (but of course with Fox that wouldn't change anything).

At least Disney priced Bad Santa at $29.98 or so, so maybe that means they've lowered their catalog title price.

If they aren't selling and the consumer adoption/penetration is poor, then free is too expensive. I have bought some BD's, I think 20, but I am all about renting.

I live in a small town of about 15k with a university here. My local Hollywood received both HDM formats 3 weeks ago. They charge 5.99 per rental. THey haven't rented ANY, NOT ONE except to me for 3 weeks. Actually, I won't pay the rental fee as I want it included in my MVP, but initially they rented as included till corporate said NO! There are some other PS3's in my town and they rent PS3 games, but not movies.

Cost isn't all about having money or not. Within reason I could buy plenty of BD's, but I don't want to have the clutter and storage for yet another medium I will toss in so many years. Like VHS and DVD I had/have a a collection that I have watched some a few times, most only once and I have NEVER watched them again. What is interesting though is that I am more inclined to get sucked into Terminator or a bunch of other movies in HD on cable no matter how many times I have seen them. Call it lazy or convenient, but that is how it is.


And how much more do movies actually cost to make on HDM than DVD. For a few years now movies on DVD have been already Mastered in HD, so isn't the difference just being able to put it on the different media. Sure there are higher costs related to production and programmers and engineers who want more money, but how much more per movie or disc can it cost than dvd?

Studios still bank on DVD sales.

No point in cannibalizing those sales yet.

As they decline over time, they may decide to stimulate HDM sales with lower prices.

Or if the demand is high enough and they get high double-digit annual increases in sales, they'll keep prices right where they are.

When they first started selling CDs, they promised prices would go down as manufacturing capacity expands. Well demand remained high and supply caught up but prices never went down.

Maybe with rental services, HDM sales remain dampened until they cut prices.

I commonly see reference to $5 dvds but I think most forget that these $5-10 movies are old movies that have not sold and are now discounted. Most new releases for DVD are still $20-25 if not more at some places.

I'm sure as some of these titles age they will also be discounted and eventually thrown in bargin bins but I dont think it is logical to expect new released to be $10-15 (although I certainly would be happy if they were lower priced).

Considering that many of the titles I get from Amazon including some new releases are $20 discounted down to $18 I fell this falls rather nicely equal to DVD pricing. Even the higher price discs list at $27 and I purchase at $25 so this again does seem equal with new DVD releases

I bought a DVD player shortly after introduction. In fact it was during the era you got free movies with the player purchase. So it was very similar to where HDM is today. I also remember buying several DVDs at the same time that were not new releases, but not exactly old either. Terminator 2, Basic Instinct, and Twister were 3 in particular. None of those cost me more than $12 or so, and many times I would buy half a dozen in a B2GO sale and end up with six movies for maybe fifty dollars shipped.

My point is that HDM does in fact cost more now than DVD did then. Maybe this isn't true for the most expensive DVDs of the late 90's, but for the majority of what was available then it is true. I think any more than $20 or $25 for a movie is more than the mainstream market will bear, regardless of the format. Those are the circumstances HDM faces. People have already been conditioned at certain price points, going back to the days of VHS. DVD has reinforced those price points. No matter how good HDM looks, it won't sell well above those points.I sure as hell don't remember $12 movies and B2GOs "shortly after introduction" of DVD.
In fact, the high cost of purchase and unavailability of DVD rental was the main reason I didn't buy a DVD player until 1999.

As others have stated, the $20 price is the sweet spot for now, but some like Paramount think very highly of their movies.
With exclusives like Paramount and Fox, I wonder how much of an asset they really are to their respective formats.

I think people mostly comment on the relative high costs as a device that is slowing down penetration.

The actual median costs seem to be approaching DVD rapidly, not too good when the entire market spawned from studios fear of rapidly declining DVD prices.

I think people mostly comment on the relative high costs as a device that is slowing down penetration.

The actual median costs seem to be approaching DVD rapidly, not too good when the entire market spawned from studios fear of rapidly declining DVD prices.AFAIK, the studios are looking at declining revenue. Not so much from declining DVD prices, which they set, but from the rising percentage of DVD rentals vs. declining percentage of DVD purchases. Plus the market penetration of DVD is reaching the point of saturation. There are no fresh markets to exploit, oh wait....:D

By cutting prices on budget DVD titles so aggressively to boost volume, the studios have effectively devalued their products. It seems like they are trying to undo this by starting over with HDM, but the proverbial horse has left the barn. It is difficult for consumers to convince themselves to pay a large premium to see it in HD, especially when they know the movie will soon be available for $6 on DVD, either used, or in a bargain bin. On more than one occasion I have walked past a retail HDM display only to see the same titles in the DVD bargain bins for 1/4 the cost. A kind of market saturation seems to have taken place with the proliferation of cheap DVDs. It is tough to convince consumers to spend substantially more when so many of them think of HDM as the natural evolution of the now mature DVD technology.

I so agree with you. The public's perception is that little 5 inch plastic discs that you can mass produce are only worth so much. $30 - $35 HD media at Circus City and Busted Buy are turning alot of people way off.

You hear it over and over on this forum and others, anything over a twenty spot has to be somethin' special. $20 is the line in the sand wheather the industry likes it or not, IMO.

The MSRP would keep me away from all Fox titles most HD DVD combos, but I am cool with paying $27 on amazon

I sure as hell don't remember $12 movies and B2GOs "shortly after introduction" of DVD.
In fact, the high cost of purchase and unavailability of DVD rental was the main reason I didn't buy a DVD player until 1999.

I remember that in 1999 to 2000, there were tons of super cheap discs driven by rise of internet marketing. Just about every online sites had coupons and deals that drove the price of these discs to $12 or less.

I remember that in 1999 to 2000, there were tons of super cheap discs driven by rise of internet marketing. Just about every online sites had coupons and deals that drove the price of these discs to $12 or less.

hell, I remember web sites that had promos for like 3 for $10 etc.. way back in 98

I remember that in 1999 to 2000, there were tons of super cheap discs driven by rise of internet marketing. Just about every online sites had coupons and deals that drove the price of these discs to $12 or less.

Exactly. Reel.com was one of those websites. My dvd collection grew by leaps and bounds during their hayday. Walmart is the new reel.com. On release week of a new SD DVD, most are priced 14.98 or less. That's where and when I pick up any Blue Ray exclusive I want. Granted, the price goes back up the Sunday of the release week, but that's a 5 day window to pick up a title, and they are rarely out of stock, unless it's something their simply not carrying. Walmart has been doing that for years now...

I get worked up with everyone complaining about price. Gracious people, these things should cost twice what they do. I think people get sour more because of the investment they made in their DVD libraries and they are now realizing that they are going to end up replacing all of them. Either way, $28 for the most expensive of HDM is by no means expensive. As was mentioned earlier, Fox used to charge more for their SD DVDs. If the cost is too high you could always go back to SD. Oh wait. You can't. You could never go back once you got a taste.

There is always a tax on early adopters. I think we have some people in the fold here that are not used to being early adopters.

I feel the prices are too high, but don't listen to me. Listen to the consumer. They are the ones who decided what DVD prices should be, and HD media will be much the same.

I disagree about not going back. I could do it. That's like saying that after I see a movie in a theater, I could never bother to watch it on a regular TV. We all know that's not true.

I feel the cost of the HD discs should be the same, or within just a few dollars. Why? Because by agreeing to buy these things, we lose the lawful right to back up our media legally, and made back-up copies for our own personal use. We are gaining better quality, yes, but let's not forget what we are also losing.

I disagree about not going back. I could do it. That's like saying that after I see a movie in a theater, I could never bother to watch it on a regular TV. We all know that's not true.


Well yeah, but ignoring how important the presentation of a favorite film is not realistic. Theres something entirely UN-appealing about watching the Matrix on a 27" CRT TV with "stereo" speakers. Ugghh....

I dont mind paying the premium for the better product. Like most things you get what you pay for. I will gladly pay the $5 - $8 premium over SD discs for superior image quality and sound quality. No problems doing that for me!

Well yeah, but ignoring how important the presentation of a favorite film is not realistic. Theres something entirely UN-appealing about watching the Matrix on a 27" CRT TV with "stereo" speakers. Ugghh....

I dont mind paying the premium for the better product. Like most things you get what you pay for. I will gladly pay the $5 - $8 premium over SD discs for superior image quality and sound quality. No problems doing that for me!

We know few consumers have a display larger than 50". So the question becomes - are you a true movie lover - or do you worship your equipment?

We can now buy DVD's for as low as $3.00. I am sure there are titles that people don't own. Or the fact that at this price - a blind buy is literally pocket change. If the movie stinks - get rid of it. The out of pocket cost is almost nil.

And the fact that an UP DVD player, be it a dedicated DVD player or an HDM player will give a pleasant experience - than how is this a bad thing? You get to see a movie and own it. . . . for the cost of a Swanson TV Dinner.

I vote with my wallet on this issue... I own almost no Fox titles... $28 for a catalog title is too much.

$24/$28 is ok for new release, $20 is fine for catalog, anything over that, and I'm keeping my hard earned money.

Speaking as a Yorkshireman, I get very angry listening to a bunch of Americans moan and whine about how expensive HDM is on your side of the pond.

Wake up and smell the coffee - they're virtually giving it away!

300 on HD DVD at Amazon USA $28 (£14)
300 on HD DVD at Amazon UK £23.50 ($47)

POTC3 on BD at Amazon USA $24 (£12)
POTC3 on BD at Amazon UK £24 ($48)

You'll excuse me if I feel very little pity indeed for your plight.

It's the same with hardware. Cheapest high def player in the UK - the HD-E1 (European A2) can occasionally be found for £160 - that's $320.

We're a long way off the $200 (£100) player, let alone the $98 (£49 :eek: ) bargain.

Steve W

In late 2000 I paid $25 each for barebones My Cousin Vinny, barebones Swingers and Groundhog Day, and $28 for Fight Club.

I think I can handle $18-$25 prices for HDM 7 years later.

Speaking as a Yorkshireman, I get very angry listening to a bunch of Americans moan and whine about how expensive HDM is on your side of the pond.

Wake up and smell the coffee - they're virtually giving it away!

300 on HD DVD at Amazon USA $28 (£14)
300 on HD DVD at Amazon UK £23.50 ($47)

POTC3 on BD at Amazon USA $24 (£12)
POTC3 on BD at Amazon UK £24 ($48)

You'll excuse me if I feel very little pity indeed for your plight.

It's the same with hardware. Cheapest high def player in the UK - the HD-E1 (European A2) can occasionally be found for £160 - that's $320.

We're a long way off the $200 (£100) player, let alone the $98 (£49 :eek: ) bargain.

Steve W

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that if you bought the US versions you would only be paying about ~ 12£ as the dollar exchange is horrendous these days. :D (Yes, I know you can't ship from US to UK (or can you?))

I bought my first DVD player in 98. It is a still functioning Pioneer DVL909 combo player. Back then you got some awsome deals from Buy.com and Reel.com. The deals were so plentiful and often that I accumulated over 100 discs by year 2000. It took me EIGHT years to collect that many LDs. Also remember that Costco at that time had some really cheap discs. I remember picking up red dawn and American Pop for 14 bucks. That was unheard of in the LD days.

I remember that in 1999 to 2000, there were tons of super cheap discs driven by rise of internet marketing. Just about every online sites had coupons and deals that drove the price of these discs to $12 or less. Of course I remember the glory days of reel.com & buy.com, 1999-2000 IIRC. It was largely due to those 2 vendors that I finally bought a DVD player. Also the initial glory days of netflix until they almost went under.
I guess my scale of "shortly after the intro of DVD" would not be 1999.
Oh well enough OT reminicsing(sic).

I disagree about not going back. I could do it. That's like saying that after I see a movie in a theater, I could never bother to watch it on a regular TV. We all know that's not true.

I don't think that's a good analogy, because you cannot go back and see something in the theater once it's gone. Unless you own a theater and can get prints, or if you live near a revival house, or if it's a perennial like The Nightmare Before Christmas 3D, after a few months there's just no way to see a certain film except on video or TV.

Seeing something on video may not measure up to the theater in terms of presentation (although the gap is closing), but it's the only option after the film has ended its theatrical run. Then there are other factors like convenience, the ability to stop or pause when needed, and the lack of annoying people who talk, chew loudly, kick seats, etc.

I feel the cost of the HD discs should be the same, or within just a few dollars. Why? Because by agreeing to buy these things, we lose the lawful right to back up our media legally, and made back-up copies for our own personal use. We are gaining better quality, yes, but let's not forget what we are also losing.

We didn't really have that right with DVD anyway. According to the DMCA, it was technically not legal to back up a commercial DVD because it involved circumventing the CSS copy protection. That certainly didn't stop people from doing it, but it's not as if only now it's illegal. They've just made it more difficult to do now.

In fact, if Managed Copy was to ever get going, we would have a legal way of making a copy, that we didn't have with DVD.

In fact, if Managed Copy was to ever get going, we would have a legal way of making a copy, that we didn't have with DVD.

Funny you should mention this - from today:

Warner delivers two types of digital copies

The studio has been quietly testing two types of digital copy delivery, dubbed by the studio E-Copy and Digital Copy

“The primary thing is that the consumer can add value to the DVD, which helps us then support the [retail] channel,” said Wuthrich. “And it’s also a way for the traditional retailer to offer a digital option for consumers.”

Going forward, Warner is hoping to similarly offer copies of its high-definition releases, but it is waiting until the install base of computers capable of high-def playback grows.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6506507.html

I really don't mind getting them for $19.99, but that's what they all should be IMO, not just on Amazon. If Best Buy wants to stay the grand pooh-bah of HD, they should shoot for that as the standard, they might actually get some of my $ again.

That is why many are starting to refer to Best Buy as MSRP Buy!:p

We know few consumers have a display larger than 50". So the question becomes - are you a true movie lover - or do you worship your equipment?



"Worship" is a little too much. I would say "greatly appreciate" is a better way to describe it. Hey, the gear makes the presentation MUCH better than it would be without it. You cant argue that. Again, I prefer to watch my favs on a bigger screen with proper surround sound & awesome PQ. I dont see this as taking away anyones "movie enthusiast" status.

The problem is that because all of this great gear and HDM is available it makes settling for anything less hard to do. Now, if the only way to watch movies was to huddle in front of a 25" CRT then so be it. But, thankfully, it is NOT the only way to watch so most of us choose not to.

Just saying.... ;)

"Worship" is a little too much. I would say "greatly appreciate" is a better way to describe it. Hey, the gear makes the presentation MUCH better than it would be without it. You cant argue that. Again, I prefer to watch my favs on a bigger screen with proper surround sound & awesome PQ. I dont see this as taking away anyones "movie enthusiast" status.

The problem is that because all of this great gear and HDM is available it makes settling for anything less hard to do. Now, if the only way to watch movies was to huddle in front of a 25" CRT then so be it. But, thankfully, it is NOT the only way to watch so most of us choose not to.

Just saying.... ;)

When I see statements from members saying; "I will never watch SD ever again" I question this statement. Because there are so few HD movies and most of the really good movies are not available in HD.

When I see statements from members saying; "I will never watch SD ever again" I question this statement. Because there are so few HD movies and most of the really good movies are not available in HD.

I guess you could lump me into the worship equipment category. I love Home Theater gadgets, good TV's, good receivers, good speakers, etc. I like movies, but I like my gear more, weird huh? That being said, I'll still watch SD, and not mind doing so.

Hey,


Just to relate my personal experience to these discussions,.. I have the netflix 3 at a time plan and they turn the movies around really fast. I send one back and they tend to send me the next the following day. So,.. I can watch something I rent every night.

For a while,.. there wasn't enough interesting Blu Ray movies to choose from but now it seems there's enough titles and they continue to release more each week and I have no trouble finding something I want to watch.

Of course,.. I would like better movies to be released already like LotR or Star Wars or Slender in the Grass for example but there's plenty of HD movies out now and more coming every week.

Lack of selection is becoming a non-issue. At least for me. And since I keep an eye open for deals,.. I've collected 51 Blu Rays thus far usually at under $15 each so high price doesn't seem to be a problem either.

-Brian

When I see statements from members saying; "I will never watch SD ever again" I question this statement. Because there are so few HD movies and most of the really good movies are not available in HD.

Agreed.

As the other responder to your post demonstrates, there appears to be at least two major categories of enthusiasts on these forums.

There are those that worship pixel counts, colorimetry, gray scale sciences to the nth degree, placing their value high above the actual art/cultural content of the film/video.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are those who are technical-format agnostic, i.e. they are film buffs and collectors, the type who've bought the same film 3-5 times or more from VHS through LD then DVD and HDM. At times, they've gone out of their way to get all the LD releases, including overseas pressings and variations.

Does the image of these LD's approach that of the best DVD and HDM transfers? Nope. That doesn't matter (within reason). Sometimes the choices are for subtle technical reasons, such as the PCM audio on the LD, or high bitrate DTS audio on another LD. Sometimes its for the art reasons- i.e. aspect ratio changes, missing scenes or film snippets or audio changes on post-LD releases.

By the same token, if I had to choose a handful of audio and video material for a desert island the rest of my life, and the choices were the best Britney Spears and other recent pop HD recordings, or some audience bootleg film and audio from 1970's Genesis or other 70's quality bands, I'd take the low technical quality (again, within reasonable limits of stability and fidelity) boots every time.

Some of us, self included, are somewhere in the middle. I consider myself a film buff/collector, and will take efforts to obtain interesting variations and releases of films on any format, regardless of technical details. But at the same time, I want to optimize the audio and video quality within reasonable technical and cost limits, i.e. use a HTPC to post process problem material with ffDshow video filters or similar, etc. Yes, we want our colorimetry and grayscale right, and we don't want to see screen door, etc. But these issues don't detract from the art and culture of film and video. When a new format hits the market, a film buff doesn't trash and abandon prior formats they own. They recognize the technical limitations of the era, and do their best to correct the fixable issues with good scalers and post processing, and leave it at that.

To limit oneself to HDM tells me the person is not a film buff or collector, but an AV tech buff- which is fine, but recognize it for what it is.

Of course,.. I would like better movies to be released already like LotR or Star Wars or Slender in the Grass for example but there's plenty of HD movies out now and more coming every week.


-Brian

Sounds like an adult title. Especially since it stars Mrs Wood.

The industry will price the movies in their best attempt to maximize their profits within their own time lines. Period. The do not care about the consumers interests beyond that equation, and they shouldn't.

Consumers will look for value and price. Value comes in when the price is beyond the impulse purchase price point. Value is difficult to measure because it varies widely depending on an individuals priorities.

I think the main issue with current pricing is that both formats are being marketed to the masses, thus devaluing them. If it is mainstream, it should be cheap and plentiful right?

This is all a fallout of the format war, which is not following the normal curve for new CE.

In conclusion, the industry brought this upon itself and I have no pity for them.

The industry will price the movies in their best attempt to maximize their profits within their own time lines. Period. The do not care about the consumers interests beyond that equation, and they shouldn't.

Consumers will look for value and price. Value comes in when the price is beyond the impulse purchase price point. Value is difficult to measure because it varies widely depending on an individuals priorities.

I think the main issue with current pricing is that both formats are being marketed to the masses, thus devaluing them. If it is mainstream, it should be cheap and plentiful right?

This is all a fallout of the format war, which is not following the normal curve for new CE.
In conclusion, the industry brought this upon itself and I have no pity for them.


I'm not convinced that's actually the case. Whether HD DVD or Blu-ray had been the lone HDM format, they would still have DVD to contend with which would impact sales as much as it is now.

Let's also not forget that while HDTV adoption has certainly picked up, it's nowhere near 50% of the population yet so that being the case, HDM will also have small numbers until that changes.

This is going to be a longer ride than most make it out to be.

I'm not convinced that's actually the case. Whether HD DVD or Blu-ray had been the lone HDM format, they would still have DVD to contend with which would impact sales as much as it is now.

Let's also not forget that while HDTV adoption has certainly picked up, it's nowhere near 50% of the population yet so that being the case, HDM will also have small numbers until that changes.

This is going to be a longer ride than most make it out to be.

Not necessarily true:

Fewer HDTVs Sold Online, Too?

http://www.tvpredictions.com/onlinesales112807.htm

This won't help at all:

FCC's Cap On Cable Subs: Bad For HDTV

http://www.tvpredictions.com/martin113007.htm

Sure does look like it

I'm not convinced that's actually the case. Whether HD DVD or Blu-ray had been the lone HDM format, they would still have DVD to contend with which would impact sales as much as it is now.

Let's also not forget that while HDTV adoption has certainly picked up, it's nowhere near 50% of the population yet so that being the case, HDM will also have small numbers until that changes.

This is going to be a longer ride than most make it out to be.

I agree we are in for a long haul. The format owners are the ones trying to speed the adoption to win the war and I think they have been only a little successful. I also think that, as an unintended consequence, they have created the impression that we should already be at mass adoption pricing.

Is DVD truly a competitor in the eyes of the manufacturers? Especially from a profit standpoint? (Outside of royalties involved) With one HDM format I see:

DVD: Cheaper for the masses who do not need it.
HDM : Premium product for those who want the quality.
Evolution: Marketing will slowly drive DVD out of the marketplace as manufacturers use HDM to differentiate their product, feeding the average consumer's need to keep up with their neighbors and friends.

Manufacturers make money on both, but more profit on the HDM. Manufacturers only want HDM to increase profits over an item that has become MA and to resell upgraded versions. The first part of the equation does not work if you drive HDM to MA pricing. I would think that the second part is a very small percentage of sales to the like of people inhabiting forums such as AVS.

I really think that too many people view all this as a consumer only and do not see the motivations, wants and needs of the manufacturers, which are a critical piece of the equation.

Does this work as an Analogy?

Think of DVD as an auto - a hardtop - most popular model

Think of HDM as a convertible - much of the same running gear as a hardtop - but put the top down and on a clear warm night - no better feeling in the world when crusin at 45 MPH

The problem is that everyone just wants things cheaper and there is nothing wrong with that, but with HDM you do get what you pay for.

The studios dont want to drop the prices of HDM yet, because they want a new format so they can resell catalogue titles and start making profit again of movies.

It's a new technology that looks vastly superior to cheap old dvd. Although $30 movies might be pushing it, don't look for $10 msrp catalog titles anytime soon.

Just my theory, but I think a common price of 19.99 for HD movies would help a bunch.

I'm actually shocked at all of the good deals I've been finding with HD movies lately. Ive bought over 20 blu-rays at amazon since Cars and Ratatouille were released, on buy one get one free promos. I paid a total of $195.03 for those 20 movies. And that includes some titles like Cars and Ratatouille on release day. ($33.11) for both. They also have the best of blu-ray box sets today buy one get one free that work out to 22.72 per set. Thats $5.67 per disc. Outside of amazon, I picked up rescue dawn shipped for about $15 brand new on ebay, and have picked up a few others used at FYE with a 40% off coupon for under $10. These prices are with the 10% off discount, but even without that the prices are really good. I now have more movies that I havent watched yet, than I've watched. I probably have over 50 HD DVD's and blu-rays that I bought under $10. Granted, I had to watch for deals, but the deals are out there.

I do wish HD DVD had all of the bogo's that Blu-ray has been having.

I'm actually shocked at all of the good deals I've been finding with HD movies lately. Ive bought over 20 blu-rays at amazon since Cars and Ratatouille were released, on buy one get one free promos. I paid a total of $195.03 for those 20 movies. And that includes some titles like Cars and Ratatouille on release day. ($33.11) for both. They also have the best of blu-ray box sets today buy one get one free that work out to 22.72 per set. Thats $5.67 per disc. Outside of amazon, I picked up rescue dawn shipped for about $15 brand new on ebay, and have picked up a few others used at FYE with a 40% off coupon for under $10. These prices are with the 10% off discount, but even without that the prices are really good. I now have more movies that I havent watched yet, than I've watched. I probably have over 50 HD DVD's and blu-rays that I bought under $10. Granted, I had to watch for deals, but the deals are out there.

I do wish HD DVD had all of the bogo's that Blu-ray has been having.

Great! The conditioning is working. Now that you know you can stock up on BOGO's - what's the point of buying movies when there is no BOGO - just wait for the next BOGO . . . right?

What do we keep hearing about the HD player costs? "So when is the next $99 price sale - think I will wait."

Correction to my last post. Actually my total is 32 movies from amazon for a total of $297.99. Thats $9.31 per movie. I only got a blu ray player the first week of November, so there were quite a few titles I wanted. I have 52 HD DVD's and 39 Blu-rays, and I've had the blu-ray player for a month, and have had the HD DVD player since Fall of '06.

Great! The conditioning is working. Now that you know you can stock up on BOGO's - what's the point of buying movies when there is no BOGO - just wait for the next BOGO . . . right?

What do we keep hearing about the HD player costs? "So when is the next $99 price sale - think I will wait."

Your exactly right. That is the biggest problem with blu-ray's strategy (not that I'm complaining). Will the movies sell well without the sales? I would really like to pick up Tremors on HD, I really liked the movie, but even at $18, I hesitate buying it. I have very few fox titles because of their higher prices. The only fox titles I have are Kingdom of Heaven, Transporter, and Ice age. I got all of them used.

Great! The conditioning is working. Now that you know you can stock up on BOGO's - what's the point of buying movies when there is no BOGO - just wait for the next BOGO . . . right?

What do we keep hearing about the HD player costs? "So when is the next $99 price sale - think I will wait."

Yes, the arbitrary-ness of media pricing, whether it's DVD, CD/DVD boxsets, or HDM, is often frustrating, and even comical most of the time.

If you play the "club" game at stores like Border's, you can get HUGE discounts and sales. The Border's store club is free (never pay for any store's "membership" club), and you accumulate reward dollars with every purchase. Plus, they email you 30%-40% off ANYTHING coupons often. So, if you combine some reward money with a 30%-40% off coupon, special items like collectible boxsets can be had at excellent prices, or free sometimes.

Other deal-site-expert methods are price matching, competitor coupon use, and plain old limited time sales and rebates.

At times, I've bought items using the coveted Quadruple Whammy: the item is price-matched to a lowball competitor with a one-day/limited sale (easier to get the item at the store without the extreme sale), plus a rebate on the item at the store I'm buying from and/or mfg rebate, plus an X$ off Y$ or % off coupon, plus reward club cash/ store gift card/ cash card. I've left with the cashier's and managers shaking their heads, sometimes getting the item for free plus money on a cash card :D

Thats why they call it "Rip Off Britian"
I have bought a few DVD's from Amazon.co.uk and the price sucks big time.
I feel for you folks. Just order from North America and benefit the favorable exchange rate situation and enjoy the movies.

Speaking as a Yorkshireman, I get very angry listening to a bunch of Americans moan and whine about how expensive HDM is on your side of the pond.

Wake up and smell the coffee - they're virtually giving it away!

300 on HD DVD at Amazon USA $28 (£14)
300 on HD DVD at Amazon UK £23.50 ($47)

POTC3 on BD at Amazon USA $24 (£12)
POTC3 on BD at Amazon UK £24 ($48)

You'll excuse me if I feel very little pity indeed for your plight.

It's the same with hardware. Cheapest high def player in the UK - the HD-E1 (European A2) can occasionally be found for £160 - that's $320.

We're a long way off the $200 (£100) player, let alone the $98 (£49 :eek: ) bargain.

Steve W

Here's a good example from down under.... Casino Royale SD 2 disc can be picked up $9.9x / the Blu-ray $42.XX. Spiderman 3 SD 2disc is being dumped at B&M stores after 2 months release at $12.9x / the Blu-ray $42.8X. EzyDVD and JB Hifi stores appear to have an almost ongoing 'Buy 2 get 1 free' sale for HD and Blur-ray.

The local result = NO ONE CARES about the HD material - its being ignored. Why buy something for $40 when you can get it for $10 ? Why should I give more money to the distributor and film studio - for something that they are now prepared to sell off ?

There is a FLOOD of SD-DVDs around !! Forget about the Amazons and other line stores - the average consumer doesnt waste time ordering online - they'll see it in a shop and buy it for themselves or their kids.

The main distributors - which of course are the film studios - 'believe' that average consumers will all go out yet again and buy the same titles yet again for the 'higher resolution and better sound'. They may have grabbed the VHS version, then saw the better picture and sound on DVD. However - are you asking me to give more money to those studios for the same title ?? I don't see CDs or Books asking me to buy them again ?? 'Here's the new Harry Potter = with extra chapters not seen before". There are many on these forums who are simply buying CRAP movies on Blu-ray and HD to satisfy their addiction - and then to 'show' off their latest gear. Its the same ones who will grab the latest Nokia or iPod - consumerism at its worst.

Then again - there are the film fanatics who will buy in any format - giving them the opportunity to watch something different. I'd prefer to be them - the picture that I'm seeing DOESNT need to be PERFECT. I can't wait til films like ERASERHEAD come out on HiDef DVD - and people complain about film grain - or the ability to see things in the background that they've never seen before.

The high price of HDM is a double edged sword for the distributors and studios : trying to get more money out of pockets - when we are aware how much things should cost for us to buy. There will be a small group - the few early adopters that will buy at any cost. However - they arent the ones that the studios NEED for a total adoption of these products - as we've seen with DVD. Sure - there's the BOGOF free sales at the moment..... but will this last ???

Rgb, I totally agree with you. I went into LD big time, then into SDDVD & now HD. Did I trash all my LD's & SDDVD's no way, I still enjoy them for what they are. Who knows if all the titles I have will ever make it to HD. So enjoy what we have and move forward!
Regards to all

Rgb, I totally agree with you. I went into LD big time, then into SDDVD & now HD. Did I trash all my LD's & SDDVD's no way, I still enjoy them for what they are. Who knows if all the titles I have will ever make it to HD. So enjoy what we have and move forward!
Regards to all

I scarfed up a LOT of LD's from a local mom & pop rental store when they switched over to DVD around 1998-1999.

Another great use for LD's is HT art. I buy vinyl album frames from Michaels when on sale, a great deal on quality frames with real glass and metal borders.

LD's make great art displayed on walls in a HT- smaller than posters, high quality printing. The amount I paid for the LD's was probably not much more and/or less than what it would cost for movie art that size. I have also scoured used record stores for vynil soundtrack albums- another low cost source of HT art. Most of the movie LP's I bought were $2-$3- not bad for music *and* wall art.

While I prefer DVD's on most every count, especially portability (except for low bitrate DTS- LD's always used 1.5Mbps DTS), I miss the big art and sleeves of LD's, and those big ole' discs. ;)

RGB:

I HEAR YOU!

I have the Blade Runner Criterion CAV LD jacket - opened - and mounted in a "box" style frame (for depth - 1 inch) in my HT so I can see the beautiful Syd Mead artwork.

RGB:

I HEAR YOU!

I have the Blade Runner Criterion CAV LD jacket - opened - and mounted in a "box" style frame (for depth - 1 inch) in my HT so I can see the beautiful Syd Mead artwork.


...and if Antiques Roadshow is any indication, well preserved LD jackets will be worth far more than the discs themselves in years to come :D

But, but, replication costs are so high for Blu-Ray, they won't be able to compete with HD-DVD on price!

Studios are enjoying high margins on HDM discs and they obviously have room to do these BOGO promotions. Probably more room than commoditizing player prices as Toshiba has.

DVD sales are said to be disappointing this year. Blockbusters are not coming anywhere near DVD sales in previous years. For instance, big titles used to sell 10 million units but they're struggling to get 5 million this year.

Perhaps studios have to plan for DVD to HDM transition sooner than they planned.

But, but, replication costs are so high for Blu-Ray, they won't be able to compete with HD-DVD on price!

Studios are enjoying high margins on HDM discs and they obviously have room to do these BOGO promotions. Probably more room than commoditizing player prices as Toshiba has.

DVD sales are said to be disappointing this year. Blockbusters are not coming anywhere near DVD sales in previous years. For instance, big titles used to sell 10 million units but they're struggling to get 5 million this year.

Perhaps studios have to plan for DVD to HDM transition sooner than they planned.

So Marketing Value and Bragging Rights have nothing to do with the BOGO's?:rolleyes:

DVD sales are said to be disappointing this year. Blockbusters are not coming anywhere near DVD sales in previous years. For instance, big titles used to sell 10 million units but they're struggling to get 5 million this year.

Perhaps studios have to plan for DVD to HDM transition sooner than they planned.

Isn't the credit crunch/housing bubble burst partly to blame for the lower consumer spending on frivolous things like movie discs?

Plus, Lee has pointed out the growing rental numbers, and I assume, growing Netflix memebrs.

Isn't the credit crunch/housing bubble burst partly to blame for the lower consumer spending on frivolous things like movie discs?

Plus, Lee has pointed out the growing rental numbers, and I assume, growing Netflix memebrs.

Well the BF numbers are in - small increase in sales - more people went out shopping - but on a "per person" basis - they each spent less.

And maybe this thread means nothing. J & R Music World is selling BD titles (many) for $9.99 - that is definitely not high priced. (NOTE - must buy 2 - fine print;))

I keep seeing posts where people are complaining about the high costs of HDM software. And they keep comparing the cost of an HDM movie to a DVD movie.

If I were a studio head - I would feel totally justified in charging more for a HDM movie because I am offerring more than a DVD in all specs.

BOGOs to the rescue. I just had to comment (independent of any other opinion here).

Just yesterday I ordered/added 4 new titles, all BD. At $11.95 each it makes for an easy decision. Nothing wrong in my book getting quality for less.

Methinks this is the answer to the so called 'war' also.

And maybe this thread means nothing. J & R Music World is selling BD titles (many) for $9.99 - that is definitely not high priced. (NOTE - must buy 2 - fine print;))

Rising prices and market segmentation into 2 Disc SE's and single disc editions at launch is a disturbing trend I've seen in the past year or so in the DVD new-release space.

I recall picking up Spiderman 1 2 Disc Se in release week at BB for about $12.99. Around that time, it was common for most big name 2 disc LE's/SE's/CE's/etc to be the only version released at launch, at great launch promo prices, i.e. low teens or less.

Currently, I'm seeing the PoTC 3's of the world segmented into the 2 Disc SE above $20, and a simultaneous single disc version for the $13 crowd.

This trend makes HDm and DVD content parity far closer, and closes the cost gap. I am assuming most recent vintage HDm releases contain all the content of typical 2 (or more) disc DVD SE sets, plus whatever HDM-format-specfic features are included.

Rising prices and market segmentation into 2 Disc SE's and single disc editions at launch is a disturbing trend I've seen in the past year or so in the DVD new-release space.

I recall picking up Spiderman 1 2 Disc Se in release week at BB for about $12.99. Around that time, it was common for most big name 2 disc LE's/SE's/CE's/etc to be the only version released at launch, at great launch promo prices, i.e. low teens or less.

Currently, I'm seeing the PoTC 3's of the world segmented into the 2 Disc SE above $20, and a simultaneous single disc version for the $13 crowd.

This trend makes HDm and DVD content parity far closer, and closes the cost gap. I am assuming most recent vintage HDm releases contain all the content of typical 2 (or more) disc DVD SE sets, plus whatever HDM-format-specfic features are included.

All good info - but the public does have a choice - $20 or $13. No choice for a HDM release - take it or leave it.

And infortunately I have never seen any data on the numbers of SE's versus POV's (Plain Old Vanilla) for DVD.

Maybe by Q1 - the year in review - will give us some data.

All good info - but the public does have a choice - $20 or $13. No choice for a HDM release - take it or leave it.

And infortunately I have never seen any data on the numbers of SE's versus POV's (Plain Old Vanilla) for DVD.

Maybe by Q1 - the year in review - will give us some data.

Pirates 1 and 2 have shown up as BOGOs at both Amazon and Frys. P3 should follow suit...in a few months.