The Official SONY VPL VW200 "Sapphire" Thread. [Text View]

joerod

11-30-07, 04:55 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=161033&stc=1&d=1260961999

Well, I am really shocked (and delighted) to start the New Sony VW200 thread. This PJ represents a few firsts for me. For one as far as I know I may be the first (end-user) to get the U.S. version VW200. It also is the first Sony flagship PJ I have ever owned. And finally it is (or most likely will be) the first STICKY thread I have ever had here at AVS! :cool:

This starting post is very preliminary because I obviously need much more time to evaluate. As I unwrapped it though I could tell it was a very high end product. It was pretty impressive. I have previously owned the VW100 and as many of you know the VW60 "Black Pearl" as well. The remote (pic 3) is very nice. It screams high end when it is in your hand. The color of the Blue Ruby is very impressive. I like its elegant look. And I am pleased to say I also got back my beloved "lighted" SONY logo! It's the little things that count. :)

So enough of the boring stuff. How does it look? I turned it on and jumped right into some of last nights NFL game between the Cowboys and Packers in HD. I predicted the score of 37 to 24 in favor of Dallas so I was almost right! :eek: Anyway, setting the FULL MOTION to HIGH yielded great results. It is hard to explain the look. It is very smooth looking almost like they are running right in front of you! :eek: Not an ounce of motion-blur which I really am sensitive to. The coolest aspect of this feature is no matter how fast the action got the picture remained SHARP and CLEAR. I love this feature for football in HD and will definitely work with it a lot this Sunday! Speaking of SHARPNESS, well it really does have plenty of it. I would say the VW60 is very close to it though but I would still give the edge to the VW200 with its MOTIONFLOW. As for colors, I really liked how the colors looked on my VW100 even a little more than the VW60s. Well, I am happy to report I got them back and then some. It is like they combined the punch of the VW60 and the richness of the VW100 and came out with the VW200. As for brightness, I would say the VW60 and VW200 are about the same. Of course I just turned on the 200 so I will have to wait a little bit to know for sure. My 120.5" Vutec SilverStar was lit up though! I should also mention this PJ is also very quiet to. I could not even tell it was on!

Now for my favorite subject. HD DVD and Blu ray titles. This PJ is very close to CRT as I am willing to bet many soon afterwards will agree with me. The inky blacks were very deep. I have been planning to get the Carada Masquerade Masking System but quite honestly I do not think I will need it (but will still most likely try one). Watching a few titles from each format I found the MOTIONFLOW being set to LOW yielded excellent results. The fast moving action scenes do NOT get blurry whatsoever. It is really nice having a constant SHARP picture. I am still playing with the Black Frame Insertion features so more on that feature later. My convergence was also spot on or as good as it gets. The panel alignment adjusting for convergence is innovative (zone convergence) and very advanced on the VW200.

So now here comes the $14,999.00 (or possibly cheaper STREET price) question. Is it worth it? I would have to say if you have the means and do not want to wait for cheaper PJs next year (or possibly the year after) to come out with 120hz MOTIONFLOW features then the answer is YES. The answer could be YES if you enjoy watching a lot of sports. So far my movies seem like they will be vastly improved as well. The scaling in the VW200 is also top notch. I am still debating if I even need my crystalio II anymore! :eek: This PJ is better and does separate itself from the mid level PJs. But by how much depends on each individual's needs. I really liked the Black Pearl as many of you know :D. I liked it so much I wanted to see what the DIAMOND could do. Now that I have I really feel like I could definitely keep this PJ for a couple years and not give another thought about what is coming out in 2008! And that is coming from someone who upgrades every few weeks! :eek:

Again, I apologize for not going into more detail I will gladly post more soon. I bet other new owners will chime in soon. ;) I really am excited at the level of performance Sony has taken their new flagship to. If anything this will lead to more performance for less in their future mid level PJs. I am seeing a level of SHARPNESS under all viewing conditions I have never seen before. And the amount of detail is astounding. I am now heading back into the "lab" so I can get to "work" testing more material... :)

Thanks Craig! Your level of service was excellent and I would not hesitate a second in the future to purchase from you again! :)

My latest settings as of July, 2008!

Iris is set to Manul with Contrast at 92.

I use Gamma Off for movies (Gamma 3 for sports)...

Depending on title Motion Flow is either OFF or on LOW (for cartoons or animated movies)...

Black Level I leave on LOW for movies and on HIGH for sports.

Color Temp I like it on Custom 2 (the Gain is higher for all 3 colors)...

Color Space is on Normal for movies and Wide for sports. Sometimes I do like Wide for some movies...

Brightness, Color, Hue are all left at 50...

Sharpness is at 40...

Film Projection is a tough one. Some movies and sports look "cool" with it on 3 (or low setting) while many times I leave it OFF.

Obviously there is not a correct way to have your settings. They are mainly subject to each owner's taste. And of course different screens should yeild different results...

Mit07

11-30-07, 05:14 PM

Anyway, setting the FULL MOTION to HIGH yielded great results. It is hard to explain the look. It is very smooth looking almost like they are running right in front of you! :eek: Not an ounce of motion-blur which I really am sensitive to. The coolest aspect of this feature is no matter how fast the action got the picture remained SHARP and CLEAR. I love this feature for football in HD and will definitely work with it a lot this Sunday!

Congrats!

Two questions:

1. Does it have the really cool lighted Sony logo that I know you love.

2. I always thought that motion-blur with fast moving sports was the result of compression used by the networks, and not a function of the display. I see motion-blur on my Pio plasma and Sony Pearl. What exactly does the VW200 do to reduce and/or eliminate motion-blur.

Andrew P

11-30-07, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the report. I was hoping for a much better picture than the 60. Doesn't sound like it is anywhere near worth the $15K list. Please tell us more as you spend more time with the pj.

joerod

11-30-07, 05:18 PM

Yes, I edited my post. I am very happy to report it does have the "lighted" SONY logo! :) More on your question number 2 after I spend more time with it. :)

joerod

11-30-07, 05:23 PM

Catdaddy67

11-30-07, 05:29 PM

Congrats, JoeRod! Youre a freaking NUT, man.

I am wondering if I might be crazy enough to do the same thing with a Marantz 11S2, for an incremental gain. 8)

Andrew P

11-30-07, 05:31 PM

I would say it does blow away the VW60 in some categories. The contrast is better. The sharpnesss with MOTIONFLOW on is very impressive which makes it stand out much more than the Black Pearl. The panel alignment with ZONE adjusting allows you to get spot on convergence. Some categories are closer but don't fool yourself. There is a reason this PJ has a msrp of $14,999.00. Mark H. was right when he mentioned its all in the lens. ;) I am seeing a better image without hardly doing any tweaking so far. Once I get to "work" I will be blown away. This PJ has the potential to look like the cross between a digital and a CRT PJ... Trust me... :)

Did you measure the contrast and calibrate to d65 yet?? What are the measurements compared to the BP? Thanks!

I have seen motionflow on the Qualia XBR and did not notice much of a difference so that 'feature' does not interest me in the least unless it is that much more noticeable from 52 to 96.

RobZ

11-30-07, 05:41 PM

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9462/dsc00160pw8.jpg

Even without the thing on it looks damn nice!

joerod

11-30-07, 05:52 PM

That is not a great pic to. As you can see I was just trying to hurry up and get it up so I could turn it on. :) I will organize my wires later... :)

joerod

11-30-07, 05:54 PM

I have not had a chance to measure anything yet. I am breaking it in as I post this. I was watching some Chronicles of Narnia from StarZHD and was absolutely blown away. As I posted before I am seeing a level of sharpness under all viewing conditions I have never seen before. And the amount of detail is astounding. I am seeing a Black Level I did not see with the VW60 or any other PJ I owned before. UnderWorld Evolution in HD just knocked my socks off! And I have not even begun to scratch (tweak) the surface! :eek:

Alan Gouger

11-30-07, 07:59 PM

Both Joe and I sourced our machine from Craig. Craig is just a few hour drive from me & knowing this would be a slow roll out I did not want to wait and did not mind the drive. Joe beat me to the punch and got his up and running first:)
Like Joe I have not had very much time with the projector but more will come over the weekend including a few screen caps.
I still have my Ruby & I spent time with the VW60 so I have a good reference to compare. Ive always felt the Ruby had a richer pallet over the VW60. The VW100 had a few circuits that were removed from the 50 & 60 and I do not know if that accounted for what I was seeing.
I have to say anyone coming from CRT to digital is going to love this thing. Convergence was dead on out of box, very impressive. But the zone convergence is amazing. Never thought we would see anything like it on a digital. The colors are very rich on the 200 and the black level is deep. Unlike Joe I have not done to much viewing with HD video content but have focused most of my time so far with movie material sourced from BD at 24hz. I was always concerned with the slight ringing associated with the VW100 but I can say the 200 has none. A nice smooth image that does not introduce any EE. She takes 24hz just fine. I also tried 48 but it displayed it as 50hz in the information menu and stutterd so 60 & 24 are its preferred vertical scan rate. Using the blank frame insertion works great and I love it. There are 3 settings. Each one drops the light output by a noticeable amount but also improving black level. I preferred using #1. It does add the same flicker you would see at the theater. It is not noticeable in the dark scenes but you can see it in the bright picture area. While I am a film buff and love it I am sure there will be some who will choose to bypass this feature. For myself it brings me one step closer to film but you do lose a chunk of brightness using it but to me its very cool!
Combine the BFI with use of the dynamic iris and you have one rich image with great black level. Brightness is on par with the VW100.
Another thing I am happy about. When I visited the service menu in the VW60 all the goodies I was use to seeing in the VW100 were missing. The VW200 has them all. This will allow some experimenting for those brave enough to operate on their 16k projector.
I did try HD video for a few minutes and threw on the 120hz feature. I did see some breaking up of some letters when set to low almost as if it was not able to keep up with the motion but set to High it was unreal. I agree with Joe this machine has a few tricks up its sleeve and kicks butt with some fresh features.
It also offers all the needed aspect ratios for using a anamorphic lens and dont forget it has the Color Management. It really performs like a CRT FP.
Ill post more through out the weekend and grab a few screen shots.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6429.JPG
Look at that finish. Sony knows how to make a good looking projector.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6432.JPG

Spizz

11-30-07, 09:22 PM

Congrats, JoeRod! Youre a freaking NUT, man.

I am wondering if I might be crazy enough to do the same thing with a Marantz 11S2, for an incremental gain. 8)

No more 15S1 :confused:

aham23

11-30-07, 09:48 PM

wow, it sure is pretty! :)

Catdaddy67

11-30-07, 10:20 PM

Not likely to happen, Spizz, unless Dan Miller gets my dealer to give me a really good deal on an "upgrade." 8)

Very happy with the 15S1. 8)

Robert George

11-30-07, 11:19 PM

I am seeing a Black Level I did not see with the VW60 or any other PJ I owned before.

I'll certainly be curious to see some calibrated measurements now that the VW200 is in the wild. But, just to temper some of the above comments, which I feel is a bit more than a little self justification, I saw the VW200 at CEDIA and I own the VW60. I don't consider the VW200 will measure appreciably better contrast or black level than the VW60. The SXRD panels are the same and even Sony publishes contrast as the same as the VW60.

The Zeiss lens will give better focus edge to edge and corner to corner with less chromatic aberration (the VW60 doesn't exhibit chromatic aberration either), but not better contrast. Despite the doubling of the wattage of the Xenon lamp over the UHP in the VW60, the real advantage here is the color of the light and the resulting accuracy of the projected color. UHP is a more efficient light source than Xenon, so the overall brightness is much closer than the wattage of the lamps would indicate.

Point zone panel alignment is a very nice feature, assuming it is necessary. Although there was some adjustment of the red panel necessary in my VW60, it was of by the same amount over the entire image so the simple vertical/horizontal adjustment in the VW60 dialed in the panel alignment perfectly.

That leaves 120 Hz Motionflow, which I do consider an interesting feature Sony has developed. Under certain circumstances, I did see considerable difference in image blur. I will say however that after a brief look at CEDIA, and a rather more in depth look at this fearture on a Sony rear projection and flat panel at dealer training before CEDIA, I do not consider the result of Motionflow to be completely natural looking. The jury is still out on Motionflow for me.

Not trying to piss in anyone's corn flakes here, but Sony is offering a better lens, a three times more expensive lamp, and some fancier digital processing for an additional $10,000. I think we should wait for some objective testing to see what that $10K is really buying. To my eye, it isn't that much, but then again, I think Mercedes Benz is over-priced.

Spizz

11-30-07, 11:41 PM

But, just to temper some of the above comments, which I feel is a bit more than a little self justification

Isn't that post Robert a little self justification for not getting the VW200 :D (j/k)

Point zone panel alignment is a very nice feature, assuming it is necessary.

Considering the mis-convergence that the JVC has with the HD1 and the fact that while the center part of the image was converged the outer areas were not on the JVC. Therefore this option on the Sony offers a piece of mind and pretty much a guarantee that perfect convergence is achievable on the VW200. One less thing to worry about.

joerod

11-30-07, 11:42 PM

I felt the same way until I actually was able to start tweaking one in my own setting. I just played around with Live Free Die Hard on Blu ray and Alan is right. 1080p/24 looks great. I was also pleasantly surprised how well Die Hard (the first one) was able to look. Then afterwards I watched a little of the Jazz/Lakers game on ESPN HD. I went into FULL mode with the MOTIONFLOW. It does look somewhat like a home video at times. I will say however the picture was 100% sharp the entire time. No motion-blur anywhere. Not even from the ball! Contrast should be about the same as the VW60 but when you add the frame insertion it changes drastically on the VW200. I so far like the MODE 2 better or MODE 3. I know Alan likes MODE 1 but to me it does darken the picture to a level where I have to make a lot more adjustments to make up for it. I will play around with it tomorrow. I have also struggled deciding which GAMMA as well. The past couple of Sony pjs GAMMA 3 has been the winner. I am not so sure with the VW200. I need a good weekend to play with it. Thank God it's Friday! :)

Again, if you are happy with the VW60 then there is no urgency to jump to the VW200. These features will start showing up in either the next gen or the one after. The Black Pearl puts out one heck of an image especially with Blu ray or HD DVD.

Alan Gouger

12-01-07, 12:00 AM

The contrast, black level and color are very CRT like.
I choose these caps to show off the richness of the image. Nothing is dialed in yet.
Still playing and learning the machine.

Joe glad to see you having fun:)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6464.jpg
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6461.jpg
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6459.jpg
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6455.jpg

HoustonHoyaFan

12-01-07, 12:05 AM

I'll certainly be curious to see some calibrated measurements now that the VW200 is in the wild... I don't consider the VW200 will measure appreciably better contrast or black level than the VW60. ...A few weeks ago,Cine4Home posted 6,000:1 off, 8,500:1 on, 40,000:1 DI d65 calibrated on a pre prod unit. If those numbers hold up they would be > 50% to > 100% better contrast than his VW60 measurements! Also lets remember that while the Ruby and Pearl also had the same CR specs, the Ruby also measured ~50% greater d65 calibrated on/off contrast than the Pearl :).

joerod

12-01-07, 12:44 AM

And I think Alan and I are seeing that! :)

westgate

12-01-07, 12:56 AM

Well, I am really shocked (and delighted) to start the New Sony VW200 thread. This PJ represents a few firsts for me. For one as far as I know I may be the first (end-user) to get the U.S. version VW200. I have Craig Shumer of THEATERMAX (732) 616-1010 to thank for that! It also is the first Sony flagship PJ I have ever owned. And finally it is (or most likely will be) the first STICKY thread I have ever had here at AVS! :cool:

Thanks Craig! Your level of service was excellent and I would not hesitate a second in the future to purchase from you again! :)

sound and vision mag had an article on barry sonnenfelds telluride home theater which has been sporting a 'vw200' (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/installations/2491/barrys-new-projector.html) since late september/early october, as far as i can tell. i was so jealous! (of the house location moreso than his theater).

im guessing it must have been a preproduction model. combined w his film industry influence.(?)

Brian Feldman

12-01-07, 01:03 AM

AWESOME screen shots Alan from that W200 projector. I think that will have to be the next one I "sample" after the G-90 comes down!! :) :)

[QUOTE=Alan Gouger;12366700]The contrast, black level and color are very CRT like.
I choose these caps to show off the richness of the image. Nothing is dialed in yet.
Still playing and learning the machine.

Joe glad to see you having fun:)

joerod

12-01-07, 01:04 AM

Westgate, or it could have been a Japanese version. I had a few people (dealers) over the past several weeks offer me one of them for purchase. I did not want to have to deal with any warranty issues so I waited to get an official U.S. version. It was worth the wait! ;)

pteittinen

12-01-07, 07:04 AM

In case you folks don't know, Sony's internal codename for the VW60 is "Amethyst" and for VW200 it's "Diamond".

joerod

12-01-07, 07:29 AM

Thanks pteittinen. I will make the adjustments... :)
I also received a couple of emails telling me that overnite... :)

joerod

12-01-07, 09:35 AM

I'm going to be out (a meeting) for the rest of today (Saturday) but I will definitely be posting my thoughts tomorrow while watching the NFL in HD. I can't wait to see how good those CBS games will be with MOTIONFLOW. I will also try out some HD DVD titles and Blu ray of course. :)

W.Mayer

12-01-07, 09:39 AM

In case you folks don't know, Sony's internal codename for the VW60 is "Amethyst" and for VW200 it's "Diamond".

the vw 60 is the amethyst yes but i think the diamond is not the vw 200 its
a new pr. that will replace the qualia next year.
sony told me that some months ago.

joerod

12-01-07, 09:44 AM

I was told by someone at Sony that it is indeed their Diamond. Once we get confirmation either way I will edit (if needed) the thread. I have also received a few emails telling me it is the Diamond. It would make sense since Rubys are Red aren't they? :)

Wayne Z

12-01-07, 11:54 AM

It seems you have only watched HD sources. How does it look on standard definition DVD?

Ohlson

12-01-07, 12:01 PM

Why not call VW200 by its name, VW200.
VW60 - the Pearl replacement
VW200 - the Ruby replacement
VW xxx - the Qualia 004 replacement
I doubt VW200 is a Qualia replacement, the VW200 is not bright enough to qualify for that. The VW xxx must be something that is bright enough to compete with 3DLP.

Alan Gouger

12-01-07, 12:11 PM

I want to mention something I have noticed using the VW200. This projector handles banding or posturization very well. Better then any other projector I have tried.
Titles with fade ins/outs and animation that are known to contain banding just do not show up using this machine. I do not know if they have tweaked their gamma on this machine to perfection or if its in the processing possibly using higher bit rate or something. All I know from what I am seeing banding is almost all but a none issue. Using my VW100 does show banding issues so something has improved.

Alan Gouger

12-01-07, 12:12 PM

mosman22

12-01-07, 12:35 PM

noah katz

12-01-07, 01:29 PM

Alan, what movie is that?

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6459.jpg

Robert George

12-01-07, 02:07 PM

VW60 - the Pearl replacement

"Black Pearl" not only has a nicer ring to it than "Amethyst", it is also an accurate description. I'm sticking to "Black Pearl" for the VW60.

Erik Garci

12-01-07, 02:10 PM

In case you folks don't know, Sony's internal codename for the VW60 is "Amethyst"
As I understand it, the VW60 prototype version was codenamed Amethyst, but the VW60 production version is codenamed Turquoize. Anyway, some people just call it the Black Pearl, since its case is darker than the Pearl's.

Alan Gouger

12-01-07, 02:23 PM

Alan, what movie is that?

Hi Noah Its "Looney Tunes: Back in Action" (2003)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0318155/

It is out on DVD ( scope ) but I grabbed it off HBO or Showtime a few years back in HD. I would love to see this hit HD DVD or BD.

RobZ

12-01-07, 02:23 PM

As I understand it, the VW60 prototype version was codenamed Amethyst, but the VW60 production version is codenamed Turquoize. Anyway, some people just call it the Black Pearl, since its case is darker than the Pearl's.

Here at home I just call it Sexy Mama!

pteittinen

12-01-07, 02:25 PM

joeycalda

12-01-07, 04:47 PM

I will take 3 d effect (contrast) over extra sharp all day. These images do seem better tah the images I have seen of the VW60. I have also seen the VW60 in person, but it lacked the brightness I have come to like in 1080DLP.

So the question for Alan is this: Sony VW200 or Sim CX3 1080. ?:p:D:confused:

Joey

Andy Garcia

12-01-07, 05:32 PM

the VW200 production version is codenamed Sapphire .not Diamond!!!
for the VW60 Turquoize.and for the VPL AW15 Topaz.

HoustonHoyaFan

12-01-07, 05:38 PM

the VW200 production version is codenamed Sapphire .not Diamond!!!.Hence the AVS nick name, "Blue Ruby" (Sapphire)! :)

Robert George

12-01-07, 05:41 PM

I will take 3 d effect (contrast) over extra sharp all day.

Actually, it is the combination of sharpness with high contrast and low black level that gives video that "3 D" type depth.

c5z06

12-01-07, 07:17 PM

Congratulations Joe,

I was close to getting the vw60 and now on pause. I know it'll probably take some good amount of time to get a vw200 tweaked for the best performance settings. I like that both you and Alan are saying this projector is matching that of CRTs (in colors). Hopefully once everything is tweaked you can take some nice screen shots (un-photoshop of course) and post here on the forum. I saw the g90 CRT stacked images on the other forums and couldn't belive my eyes. Hopefully if anything this will be a close resemblance if not better I am hopping.

hrd

12-01-07, 10:27 PM

The contrast, black level and color are very CRT like.
I choose these caps to show off the richness of the image. Nothing is dialed in yet.
Still playing and learning the machine.

Will you be attempting the Ruby light cannon tweak on this projector, Alan?

Alan Gouger

12-02-07, 11:02 AM

Is the motionflow, implenmented the same as the xbr4's and 5's. Does it use the 5:5 or 6:4 like the XBR. If so, from my own expierence i put it on high for sports, Nature shows, and animation. For a regular blu ray or hd dvd i click theatre mode, which switches motionflow off. I find motionflow distracting for films. I would highly recommended throwing in the cars and rat bd's and jacking up motionflow high. Does the vw200 have the theartre mode button, and does it turn motionflow off. I would assume that they used similiar techniques for the XBr 4,5 and the vw200. I have heard from people on forums that 1080/24 is pointless unless it is done as 5:5, i still always feed my xbr4 1080/24 anyway IMO it is much better. Can't wait to hear more reports on this pj, i am looking into redoing the basement and am seriously considering this projector. Is the upgrade worth the price. What would the best pj for around 10,000 be?

Mosman I cannot comment if the motionflow in the 200 is the same as in the XBRs. I am not familiar with their other sets to be able to compare or coment. We have a choice of high low or off & I did try it with 24hz material. Low produced some artifacts but high worked fine. I prefer it off for film source. I have not done much viewing of HDTV 60hz yet.

Is this worth the upgrade for you? I would wait for more reports as the roll out moves forward. This machine and 3 chip DLP will cost you a little more then your mentioned price. 3 chip DLP will obviously offer superior ANSI contrast and brightness and will light up a larger screen. The Sony will give superior on/off contrast but your preference may find it limited to smaller screen sizes unless using a high gain screen. If you are a die hard film buff and have previously lived with a CRT this is your dream machine. I love the Film mode. Playing Quentin Tarantinos "Grindhouse " in HD with all the film scratches and splices using Film mode results in shutter flicker, for myself that is true film reproduction in the home:)

Will you be attempting the Ruby light cannon tweak on this projector, Alan?

Everything is there in the service menu but it is laid out a little different and works different. It will take a little time to decipher. At this point the projector is plenty bright. Im using a 1.3 gain screen, 8 feet wide. At some point I am sure someone will visit this topic. At 16k retail Im not taking the risk just yet, no need:)

I will take 3 d effect (contrast) over extra sharp all day. These images do seem better tah the images I have seen of the VW60. I have also seen the VW60 in person, but it lacked the brightness I have come to like in 1080DLP.

So the question for Alan is this: Sony VW200 or Sim CX3 1080. ?:p:D:confused:

Joey

There is no one answer. I truly love both & wish we could take the things we like from both technologies and combine them into one. I can only say which ever choice you make both perform to their expectations:)

Angeli662

12-02-07, 12:10 PM

Allan, are you using a VP for 2.35.1 or just the PJ stretch mode? and if so how does the processing looks without a VP?
Thanks
Rick

Alan Gouger

12-02-07, 12:45 PM

Allan, are you using a VP for 2.35.1 or just the PJ stretch mode? and if so how does the processing looks without a VP?
Thanks
Rick

I have yet to try it direct. I am using a VP feeding 1080p 24 to the Sony. The Sony does have what it takes using an anamorphic lens for both
sliding the lens in/out of the way or leaving the lens in place at all times.
I have several sources so my VP also serves as a switcher.

Alan Gouger

12-02-07, 12:49 PM

joerod

12-02-07, 01:47 PM

I have been watching NFL HD all day so far. I got in late this morning. I have been happy with the results of the motionflow on high while watching the games. I have the gamma set to off. Close ups are breathtaking. And when the Redskins only set out 10 players today to honor the memory of Sean Taylor when they showed the crowd close up it really gave the effect like you were there. I love the color of the team's uniforms. They are very rich and deep. White is truly white. The Chargers/Chiefs game on CBS has been to real. :)

WOLVERNOLE

12-02-07, 09:54 PM

[QUOTE=Alan Gouger;12376244]
At this point the projector is plenty bright. Im using a 1.3 gain screen, 8 feet wide. QUOTE]

Alan-
Are you using the Stewart Studiotek 130 ? Are you perfectly satisfied with it, and if ya had it over to do, would you stick with the screen you curently have? Which other screens did you consider (if any)? Thanks.

joerod

12-03-07, 05:55 AM

So far I have been pretty much watching the opposite material that Alan has. :)
I plan to get into HD DVD and Blu ray today at 1080p/23.97 and see just how good the VW200 is. So far watching DirecTV HD I have preferred the Dynamic with Motionflow on High for sports. And gamma 3 (still going back between that and off) and film projecton mode OFF. For movies or shows like Dexter we prefer Standard with Motionflow on Low (still deciding between Low and Off but leaning towards Low) and gamma Off. I did spend a good time comparing the VW200's video processing versus my crystaliO IIs yesterday. I think the VW200 is right there but I do like having all the extra tweaks the crystalio II gives me. And the picture has just slightly more umph. With time I could probably get the VW200's Bravia Pro processing to match it but I like the combo of having them both. More to come, which reminds me, does anyone else have one coming? :)

W.Mayer

12-03-07, 08:39 AM

Moving forward anyone else getting one of these or if you have any info regarding the x.v.Color™ technology, I cannot find it anywhere in the menus. Ive tried different scan rates and it does not show up. If someone has any knowledge of this please share :)

alan
the only source material is hdv cameras from sony and other companys.
when you feed such material that you also record in x.v.color
than the 200 will know it and display it right.
may they also show you something in the display for some secounds.
wolfgang

Catdaddy67

12-03-07, 10:05 AM

What is the MSRP on the unit, Alan? Best Buy/Magnolia and Sony Style have the MSRP at $14,999. Is that correct?

Alan Gouger

12-03-07, 11:25 AM

alan
the only source material is hdv cameras from sony and other companys.
when you feed such material that you also record in x.v.color
than the 200 will know it and display it right.
may they also show you something in the display for some secounds.
wolfgang

Thank you Mayer. I figured it was something like that:)

What is the MSRP on the unit, Alan? Best Buy/Magnolia and Sony Style have the MSRP at $14,999. Is that correct?

Retail is 16k.

Alan-
Are you using the Stewart Studiotek 130 ? Are you perfectly satisfied with it, and if ya had it over to do, would you stick with the screen you curently have? Which other screens did you consider (if any)? Thanks.

I am using Dalite. It has that sheen:( I will switch at some point.

oliverg

12-03-07, 11:41 AM

Alan Gouger

12-03-07, 12:18 PM

Gentlemen - a question..

What's the point of having a supposed 120Hz refresh rate when the PRT for the SXRD panels is 2.5ms? I understand the need to eliminate pull down..creating frames etc but, for those of us that have high end VPs (Crystalio 2 etc) is it worth the extra cash?

I've took a look at the VW200 and did an A/B with my Ruby before I sold it - frankly, I couldn't see that much of a difference. I didn't take my VP out of the equation (kicking myself now) but when the panels are the same 2.5ms panels...?

Hi Oliver

I still have my Ruby and have to say it still keeps up with the competition. Anyone still owning one I see no need to replace it yet. Moving forward anyone not owning a projector the VW200 is a contender. I am a film buff so I do not care about the 120hz but I have to say I love the Film mode with Blank Frame insertion. I hope they never do away with this feature in the future but I am afraid many will not like it and say its useless. To me it is the perfect screening room projector for emulating film movies especially if you are in the film business. I do enjoy the convergence and the new menu with all the new features and the image is a little sharper. Dismissing the new features does this put the 200 way ahead of the 100 in picture quality considering the extra money, for many probably not but for those buying fresh I really love this thing and for those who are true film buffs and those coming from CRT this is a must:)
Its features make this a very unique projector which differentiate it putting it in a class by itself even if others match its contrast ratio.

joerod

12-03-07, 03:29 PM

I am liking the Film Projection mode 2 a lot lately. It does a lot for that film feeling. As for 120hz it is awesome for sports. I don't think I could watch a BIG game without it now... :)

darryl b

12-03-07, 03:39 PM

does the vw200 have any of the over saturated color issue?

joerod

12-03-07, 03:41 PM

Nope, it has the best color I have seen so far... :)

Alan Gouger

12-03-07, 04:00 PM

Joe Film mode 2 is my fav as well.

Darryl

Like Joe said the colors are the best part of this machine. The Color Management System is there if you feel the need.

joerod

12-03-07, 04:17 PM

Awesome Alan. I am glad we both are liking it. I guess I really don't need it (projection film mode) engaged at all when watching sports with Motionflow on High then. I only use it with movies so far. I have also played with Motionflow for some shows like dexter lastnite on Showtime in HD. I had it in Low mode. We liked it. High is to much for shows though. I plan to play with Motionflow in Low for Blu ray and HD DVD later... And of course with Film Mode 2. :)

Catdaddy67

12-03-07, 06:00 PM

Wow, Alan, thats quite an endorsement for the VW100. 8)

joerod

12-03-07, 06:19 PM

It deserves it. As much as I liked the VW60 I always missed a few little things the VW100 did. Now havng the 200 I feel like I get the best of both worlds... Not to mention the film projection mode and Motionflow...

joeycalda

12-03-07, 08:57 PM

I am still missing aspects of my 9 inch CRT (thats why its still in my home) What qualiites of this projector resemble a good CRT?

Black level and contrast are important to me but some people say DLP has better black level than the SOny is this true?

BTW I will be using an 8 foot Stewart 1.3 gain white screen.
ThX Joey

joerod

12-04-07, 06:19 AM

Lastnight I played around with HD DVD. I used the new Onkyo HD805 for my experimenting. At 1080p/23.97 it looked wonderful. I had the VW200 in Film Projection Mode 2 or 3 and the Motionflow set to Low. The picture was plenty sharp and had great colors. I watched some of Ron Burgandy and Old School HD DVD. The black colors nearly matched the trim around my screen. In fact, it was the closest I have ever seen it come to doing that. I could have sworn there were a few moments where it did! Anyway, shadow detail was excellent on both titles. I really like leaving the Motionflow on Low for movies. It gives close ups that 3D look (not to much though) that make you feel like they are in the same room. And of course again I set it to Full for sports. The picture stays sharp no matter how fast the action gets. Now that is cool! :cool:

oliverg

12-04-07, 06:28 AM

Alan, thanks for the (always astute) observations you make.

joeycalda, I find the black levels of these machines to be excellent - especially when properly calibrated. My advice is to audition one from a friendly dealer first.

I'm staying CRT as my primary choice but there's something to be said for the latest digitals , they definately have their advantages.

Kind regards

madshi

12-04-07, 07:17 AM

What is that "Film Projection Mode"? Is that the mode which controls the Dark Frame Insertion? So do you proud VW200 owners like the Dark Frame Insertion stuff? In what does it affect the image quality? In theory it should improve sharpness during motion. As a side effect it should also decrease brightness (and consequently improve black level). How does it behave it practice?

ca1ore

12-04-07, 07:53 AM

joerod

12-04-07, 08:15 AM

I thought the same to. I was very shocked to see it work. I like it on Low mode though as stated in my post for movies... :)

darryl b

12-04-07, 08:26 AM

just curious, any reviews coming for this one?

darryl b

12-04-07, 08:27 AM

how does the 200 compare with the rs1?

darryl b

12-04-07, 08:27 AM

i'm sure everyone also wants to know a comparison with the pany 2000

scaesare

12-04-07, 08:57 AM

mark haflich

12-04-07, 09:23 AM

Its time to sell your VPL-vw200. Sony has a new SXRD projector to be shown at CES in early January. Just one month from now. I don't know the shipping date for the new one but it should be very very early in the year. This is not a joke.

The code name for the new mchine is the Sony Anthracite. OK the code name is a joke.

The machine is the Sony VPL-vw40! Ta Da. A $2999 MSRP entry level SXRD projector.

This will be the Qualia replacement and will obliterate the VPL-vw60 and slightly better the VPL-vw200. Yea right (the previous sentence is another joke). I have no details on the machine other than it is intended as a poorer man's VPL-vw60.

ca1ore

12-04-07, 10:43 AM

Mark:

Nice - taking advantage of my neuroses.

Simon

Ohlson

12-04-07, 10:44 AM

I think people in this thread are more hopeful for a Qualia 004 replacement.
VW200 is shaping up to be a very good projector. I think people need to see VW200 and not just read the specs.

SgtPepper

12-04-07, 10:49 AM

mark haflich

12-04-07, 11:09 AM

I didn't say anything about what it is. Just that it will be a 3 chip SXRD called the VPL-vw40 and will be cheaper than the VPL-vw60 with a MSRP of $2999. Could I be wrong about the price? Well its not on the Sony price sheets yet but dealers should be getting details very soon. Obviously there will have to be less features than on the recently released VPL-vw60. I would expect a lesser lens but I am guessing. I know no details. Read nothing into this post other than there is a new cheaper than the VPL-vw60 SXRD FP coming from Sony to be shown at CES with a model numer of VPL-vw40. I really should post this in the under $3K forum, but I don't go there or want to go there. I don't want to go to Iraq either.

J.Mike Ferrara

12-04-07, 12:15 PM

So Mark,
I take it there will be no 004 replacement - that the VPL-vw200 is the top o' the line.

BTW, Joe - congrats and thanks for sharing.

lovingdvd

12-04-07, 01:00 PM

Congrats guys - glad you are enjoying your new toy! Has anyone taken ON/OFF and MANSI measurements yet? How about lumens?

joerod

12-04-07, 01:47 PM

I hope darryl b was kidding about comparing it to the panny 2000. :D No disrespect of course to 2000 owners out there... :)

Ohlson

12-04-07, 03:09 PM

J.Mike
Without knowing I would say there will be something above VW200. I guess so since Sony needs a projector to battle 3DLP projectors in the prosumer market.

waveflyer

12-04-07, 03:30 PM

Is this projector now available, or just very limited release?

J.Mike Ferrara

12-04-07, 03:36 PM

J.Mike
Without knowing I would say there will be something above VW200. I guess so since Sony needs a projector to battle 3DLP projectors in the prosumer market.
Frankly, the VW200 sounds like a suitable replacement - my only concern is that it might lack the lumens HP of the 004.

joerod

12-04-07, 03:47 PM

I think it stands with the new sim2. Frankly, you can't go wrong with either... Of course I am hooked on the Motionflow for football now...

rlindo

12-04-07, 04:17 PM

Wow, I totally discounted this pj earlier but seeing the positive comments by Alan and Joe has me thinking maybe it is an option.

How is the image pop/depth on this thing? The main thing that is making me look to a DLP (ht380 or 15S1) as an upgrade from my RS1 is the much higher Ansi CR.

I like the sound of that motionflow...

mark haflich

12-04-07, 04:28 PM

J Mike. Someday there will be an 004 replacement. The now Sony Diamond. The 200 is not the Diamond. I have NFI when it is coming. If I had to guess it would be at Cedia in late summer. I am not Sony so I really don't know. I doubt Sony knows either. I think that it is under development and when the engineers have it ready it will be produced and sold.

What is coming at CES is a VPL-vw40. This product is I think (given the incremental small dealer margin which I know) is designed for the large box stores. Street prices for on line phone and order sites will not be much lower than list because the margins are small. I wonder how many $3K projectors Wallmart can sell? They sure sell a lot of $2K and under flat panels.

Ohlson

12-04-07, 04:42 PM

mark haflich
Did you mean to write VW40 is coming at CES?

mark haflich

12-04-07, 05:06 PM

Yes. I fixed the sentence. Thanks

joerod

12-04-07, 06:44 PM

So I should edit the thread to not say Diamond? I was told from a few people it was the Diamond. Ideas?

joerod

12-05-07, 03:01 PM

I think we do need to edit the thread until we get some good clarification. This PJ is so good I really don't think it needs a nickname. :) I do like having a cool one whether it be Ruby, Black Pearl or whatever... My Wife leaned over to me lastnight and said this is easily the best picture she has seen in her life. I laughed because now that I am tweaking it more and more it truly is next "level" performance. We were amazed how well Ocean's Eleven looked. It doesn't get much better than this. I think it deserves to be in the Ultra Hi-end 20,000 and above thread! :)

darryl b

12-05-07, 03:41 PM

.... now that I am tweaking it more and more it truly is next "level" performance. We were amazed how well Ocean's Eleven looked. It doesn't get much better than this. I think it deserves to be in the Ultra Hi-end 20,000 and above thread! :)

i'm determined to keep my rs1 for another year.
but man, your posted comments seem so sincere about how satisfied you are with this pj that i may have to get one.
how about a few screenshots?

mosman22

12-05-07, 03:59 PM

I think it stands with the new sim2. Frankly, you can't go wrong with either... Of course I am hooked on the Motionflow for football now...

Joe, i would suggest putting motionflow on High for animation and nature docs. Check out Planet EArth bd, and Ratatouille bd with the motionflow jacked up. Looks great on my 52xbr4. Let us know what you think? I am seriously considering spending more then i planned and jumping in on vw200 fun. Glad to hear you guys are enjoying your pj's so much.

Samaritano

12-05-07, 04:54 PM

i'm determined to keep my rs1 for another year.
but man, your posted comments seem so sincere about how satisfied you are with this pj that i may have to get one.
how about a few screenshots?

Keep it for another year. There always going to be something better and cheaper. He's just excited with his new toy :D

joerod

12-05-07, 06:04 PM

It's been since last Friday. Usually by now my initial excitement dims somewhat. And this time (which is the very first time) my whole family is excited about my new toy. You can wait another year but if you have the means then why wait? You only live once and waiting an entire year means missing a year's worth of the best picture Q. I seriously plan to keep the VW200 for a couple of years. I am the most satisfied I have ever been with a PJ. We put the Motionflow on FULL for Shrek The Third and my Daughter and my niece went crazy. They said it is 3D without the glasses! :D

Anyway, I would love to post some screen shots, can someone PM with a good camera suggestion? :)

Oh and believe me, if you had this new "toy" you would be just as excited! ;)

TestnDoc

12-05-07, 06:27 PM

Joerod...you are killing me!! I just got a vw-60, but now Im ready to upgrade to the vw-200!!! :)

mark haflich

12-05-07, 06:52 PM

Nobody has any to ship right now anyway. Even the great MSRP retail warehouse at Sony Style.

A lot of any new projector is being one of the first to get it, posting, and being part of the owners club.

Why do we say Congratulations when some one purchases a new projector?

Why don't we congratulations when someone buys a new plasma? Or a new riding lawnmower which can cost as much as a $15K projector, Or a new snowplow (yes I bought one half of one last week for $3K). At least my neighbor will plow my driveway withit for the next whatever years. Come on. I got a NFSP. Congratulate me! :)

Seriously. Joe seems to like his VPL-vw200 very much as I argued with him here that he would. What Joe should really be congratulated for is buying a piece of HT gear that his wife can see how good it is and is happy with it instead of "you spent what on what?"

joerod

12-05-07, 07:35 PM

Tambiman

12-05-07, 08:07 PM

Well Joerod, Sony should pay you. I'ved been lurking on this forum for a long while, trying to decide on my first projector. Sony VW60 and JVC RS2 were in the running for me, but your posts draw me more and more to the VW200. Despite the fact that both my wife and I work professionaly in the audiovisuel sector (she is director, I am scriptwriter), it took me a hell of an effort to convince her to create our own 'cinemaroom'. I feel I have one shot to do it right, so I better choose the best projector right away. You convinced me to the vw200! I 'm looking forward to this!

Ironic that my interest for the VW60 was also mainly based on your posts. :)

joerod

12-06-07, 07:30 AM

You've made the right decision. Just make sure you let us know what you think when you get it up and going... :)

stepmback

12-06-07, 07:53 AM

Mark is 100% right. She was irritated when I told her I sold the Ruby and purchased the Black Pearl. She remembered those rough days with the DLP RBE PJs. She did not know they are the same SXRD technology. Anyway, she has not complained one bit. Even after I told her the MSRP of this PJ. Of course I did not pay that but still made a pretty good investment. She is now trying to take over my theater. This is the third night in a row she wants to watch her shows in there! :eek:

And I am glad I lost the arguement with Mark over the next "level" performance the VW200 gives. I did not believe it would be this good. :)
Seeing is believing! ;)

Joe I am a Ruby owner and love the projector I am curious how the VW200 compares on some basic criteria.

How much noise does the projector make compared to a Ruby?
What is the heat output of the VW200? Compared to Ruby?
What is the size of the projector compared to a Ruby?
How much brigher is this projector compared to a Ruby?

I know some of these will be subjective responses but I would like to know your impression of this projector by comparing it to something we both know.

joerod

12-06-07, 08:19 AM

It's funny you mention the heat factor because last night my Wife pointed out that this one was not as hot as the VW100. The Black Pearl was nice because it would let the heat out the front so I was a little apprehensive going back to the same design as the VW100. I sometimes could feel it get warm when I would have it on for those long marathons. Anyway, the VW200 does not seem to let out as much heat. As for size it is pretty much (or maybe is) the same exact size as the VW100. I think it weighs 2 pounds more though. Sound wise it also seems to be just slightly quieter. Not by much but it does seem like it is not on sometimes. I am already going on 30 plus hours and it is still very bright. I can't really judge that yet. I would rather get a 100 hours then make a judgment call. I will say the VW200 is capable of being very bright and it lights up my 120.5" screen from about 15 feet away easily.

Other notables is the picture is much sharper. Contrast much better. Black level much better. The amount of detail is greatly increased with the better contrast and sharpness. And of course the Motionflow for sports and movies like Ratatouille Blu ray and Shrek The Third HD DVD is jaw-dropping! And for regular movie watching the Film Projection mode is one of the best features we have seen. Combine those features with the zone panel alignment adjusting for convergence and of course 1080p/24 HDMI inputs and it really is not fair to compare the VW100... :)

darryl b

12-06-07, 08:23 AM

in the screenshots the skin tones look sun burnt.
are there controls to allow calibration of color?

Erik Garci

12-06-07, 09:26 AM

Anyway, the VW200 does not seem to let out as much heat.
The VW200 uses a 400W lamp like the VW100, so maybe just the electronics in the VW200 run cooler.

joerod

12-06-07, 09:29 AM

The color can be fine tuned with the RCP (real color processing) but personally I have been able to achieve success without it. :)

ca1ore

12-06-07, 11:28 AM

Nobody has any to ship right now anyway. Even the great MSRP retail warehouse at Sony Style.

Bummer! Any sense when this might change?

Alan Gouger

12-06-07, 12:38 PM

in the screenshots the skin tones look sun burnt.
are there controls to allow calibration of color?

The title I choose has that hot contrast look to it regarding skin tones, not the fault of the projector. As Joe mentioned you can target the primaries and secondaries and make the adjustments. No worries regarding color:)

Alan Gouger

12-06-07, 01:36 PM

tryingtimes

12-06-07, 02:00 PM

Any signs of the Iris operating in any way Alan?
I know there must be some element of brightness compression, but have you seen anything which distracts you from movie yet?

Ohlson

12-06-07, 02:08 PM

Alan G.
Was the contrast with the iris closed measured?

Alan Gouger

12-06-07, 02:09 PM

Any signs of the Iris operating in any way Alan?
I know there must be some element of brightness compression, but have you seen anything which distracts you from movie yet?

I think the Iris automation is on par with the VW60. Ive only noticed BC once during a certain scene using Iris 1 which is the most aggressive. You get the best of both worlds using Iris 2, no BC that Ive seen. The projector looks plenty good enough without the use of the Iris as well. I would only use it on a dark movie to bring out more shadow detail.

Alan G.
Was the contrast with the iris closed measured?

We did not measure the manual setting in its closed position. The 29,600:1 was at factory default with Iris 1 selected in the recommended mode.

Phil Olson

12-06-07, 03:32 PM

I think Alan mentioned that the Sony VW200 had support for both fixed and removable anamorph lenses. Does the RS2 as well? I know the RS2 says it supports 2.35 but just wanted to make sure it supports the fixed lens option as that's the one I'll likely do.

Even on my old G15 the detail was more than adequate for that type of setup.

Looking at the VW200 vs RS2/radience I'm leaning towards the RS2 soon then adding the radience in a few months. I assume the Radience supports both?

tryingtimes

12-07-07, 02:39 AM

Thanks Alan

Cine4Home

12-07-07, 05:43 AM

The VW200 uses a 400W lamp like the VW100, so maybe just the electronics in the VW200 run cooler.

The VW200 gets etxremely hot... we just released first pictures today ...

Regards,
Ekkehart Schmitt

joerod

12-07-07, 06:05 AM

I am sure on the inside it is extremely hot but sitting directly behind it has not been as warm of an experience as sitting directly behind the VW100. And that is after 6 to 10 hour running times... :eek:

W.Mayer

12-07-07, 06:13 AM

Jason just stopped by with his light meter and took a few quick contrast measurements.
I have 30 hours on the bulb.
ANSi was shy of 300. Not bad for Lcos.
4111 on/off no iris
29,600 on/off iris 1 mode.

the germany magazin audio vision 1/2008 just test the sony vw 60
and the found:

2400:1 on of with no iris
11440:1 with iris(max)
ansi cr. is 290:1.
lumen 597/408 (high low)

because avs and audio visions measurments are mostly the same
in the past i guess that the 200 have somthing new inside
that bost the on of cr.a lot.
ansi seams to be also same high as the 200(for lcos:)).
audio vision also report about some detail lost in motion with the vw 60 because
of the old brawia engine.
the say the new 200 will have a new bravia pro engine and
therefore this bug shoul be not anymore visible.

btw final conclusion about the vw 60:
a outstanding pr. very good for a nice price.

but seams the 200 make everything better excluding
high light out for bigger screens.

Cine4Home

12-07-07, 06:13 AM

The VW200 uses a 400W lamp like the VW100, so maybe just the electronics in the VW200 run cooler.

I am sure on the inside it is extremely hot but sitting directly behind it has not been as warm of an experience as sitting directly behind the VW100. And that is after 6 to 10 hour running times... :eek:

I would call 80°C pretty warm. That is the temperature the VW200 blows out... VW100 was not warmer..

Regards,
Ekkehart

HoustonHoyaFan

12-07-07, 08:11 AM

I would call 80°C pretty warm. That is the temperature the VW200 blows out... VW100 was not warmer..

Regards,
EkkehartAre you getting the same d65 CR numbers you posted earlier for the pre/prod machine (6,000:1/8,500:1/40,000:1)?

joerod

12-07-07, 08:20 AM

I would say that is warm as well but have you sat directly behind one for two or three football games in a row like I have? It must be doing something different because I am telling you it is not as HOT back there as it was with the VW100. My Wife was the first to notice this...

james69

12-07-07, 08:36 AM

I haven't sit behind mine for 3 football games... but I did get my digital thermometer.After 2 hours, it reports 41C for the VW200 and 38C for the VW100. So the 200 is actually hotter.

I set my Black Pearl up too and it sits at 32C - so the VW200 is the hottest of all 3.

joerod

12-07-07, 08:52 AM

Maybe it has a different pattern or way of pushing its heat out? Whatever it is we just don't feel it as much as we did before. Bottom line is who cares? To me it is a non factor and I just like the exceptional picture Q I am getting from this PJ. :)

Erik Garci

12-07-07, 11:21 AM

After 2 hours, it reports 41C for the VW200 and 38C for the VW100. So the 200 is actually hotter.
How many hours are on each of those lamps? I wonder if the lamp gets cooler as it ages.

Alan Gouger

12-07-07, 12:39 PM

While I have no interest in the Temp from any of my projectors I do understand the importance to some, the documentation is good to know.

I just fired up my VW200 and after 10 minutes placed my hand on its back side. If I put my hand right up to her 1" it was a comfortable heat, no where near hot. At 6" away I feel a very slight warm breeze. I have had plenty of other projectors which heated up my room in no time and placing my hand to the vent was uncomfortable. I would consider the heat from the VW200 not an issue compared to other projectors.

Picture performance is first on the list of priority for me and regardless what projector I choose everything else is of little importance, I will always work around it. I am enjoying the picture so much I never thought to check how much heat she is putting out. For me, noise and heat are not an issue with the VW200. A scenario,I would never turn down a date with a beutiful woman because I found out she had a corn on her toe:)

mark haflich

12-07-07, 12:50 PM

or if she had six toes.

BTW. Interesting question whether the heat output of a machine diminishes as the bulb ages. Would the bulb draw the same current and the bulb put out the same heat even though the light output was less. Would the heat output be instantaneously higher the moment you shut the bulb off, all heat no light? Ugh. Sort of like a Class A amplifier not playing music?

Alan Gouger

12-07-07, 12:59 PM

or if she had six toes.

Or three.... :)

mark haflich

12-07-07, 01:25 PM

Alan You SOB. I dated her too. She was from Rochester and her name was Carol. Very pretty, short, very very busty but she certainly couldn't grab my errr _____ with her toes. I also ended up wth a lady with much higher lumens.

Alan Gouger

12-07-07, 01:31 PM

Mark I knew you would not let us down with your humor, all the best :)

Angeli662

12-07-07, 02:58 PM

ca1ore

12-07-07, 03:31 PM

Alan, before I pull the trigger on this baby and get ready of my beloved Ruby and VP50.
Can the VPL-VW200 does HE and VC. the problem I don't want have to change my lens which is PSO 120 from prism VC.
Thanks.

Same capability to do CIH as the Ruby - more actually, since it has the squeeze capability negating the need for an external VP to do CIH (lots of other reasons to have a VP).

Of course, I don't actually have my VW200 yet - come on, Sony, start making these things .... please! I am VERY interested to see the motionflow as I am a big sports fan. Plus I am projectorless .....aaaaaaaaaaa!

Alan Gouger

12-07-07, 04:01 PM

Angeli662

ca1ore nailed it. No need for external VP for this task. The VW200 has you covered.

W.Mayer

12-07-07, 04:51 PM

i will not buy any pr. that have over 30C:):):)

from now on main thing is the temperature
of a projector.:D:D:D

sorry cant stop me when i read it.

Cine4Home

12-07-07, 06:29 PM

Are you getting the same d65 CR numbers you posted earlier for the pre/prod machine (6,000:1/8,500:1/40,000:1)?

Right now, we are analysing the light loss of the Xenon lamp, which is, again, very huge...

Regards,
Ekkehart

HoustonHoyaFan

12-07-07, 06:52 PM

Right now, we are analysing the light loss of the Xenon lamp, which is, again, very huge...My Ruby went from 710 lumens to ~ 480 lumens at 590 hours. The ~30% seems standard for all lamp types on the forum. How big is "very huge"?

Alan Gouger

12-07-07, 07:06 PM

Ekkehart

Does the VW200 use the same bulb as the 100?
Im guessing it does but looking for confirmation. Thank you!

reincarnate

12-07-07, 07:52 PM

Nope, it has the best color I have seen so far... :)
Then what is your evaluation of these skin tones?
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6459.jpg

Please, as we are all grown up boys who have every right to enjoy our expensive toys, there is no need to answer the question. But it does tend to support a lack of consistency in this forum.
Sorry for stating the obvious. :)

Angeli662

12-07-07, 09:46 PM

Then what is your evaluation of these skin tones?
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6459.jpg

Please, as we are all grown up boys who have every right to enjoy our expensive toys, there is no need to answer the question. But it does tend to support a lack of consistency in this forum.
Sorry for stating the obvious. :)

Hey you can't blame the projector if the make up artists use to much make up on the actors

Look how bugs looks natural..

cjfrbw

12-07-07, 10:14 PM

My Ruby has 1200 hours on the original bulb and is plenty bright, the picture just keeps getting better, I think they take a long time to break in.

aham23

12-07-07, 10:38 PM

debating screen shots is just silly. it is SUBJECTIVE. no if ands or buts. that is all. later.

joerod

12-08-07, 07:03 AM

I have near perfect skin tones. We watched Polar Express HD DVD and let me just say with a few kids over they did not say a word. They were so drawn into the picture.It was pure eye-candy! My Wife made Hot Chocolate which they really liked and really added to the in-movie experience. :D Anyway, right after I changed gears with The Grinch HD DVD and saw some detail I hadn't seen before. The VW200 is still impressing the hell out of me! :eek:

Oh and Alan according to the maual it does use the same exact lamp as the VW100...

james69

12-08-07, 07:54 AM

Oh and Alan according to the maual it does use the same exact lamp as the VW100...

the housing is different but the actual lamp is the same

its funny, you can actually buy the lamps from the manufacturer and fit them yourself into the housing.. its great, verrrrry cheap vs buying retail

mark haflich

12-08-07, 08:11 AM

mark haflich

12-08-07, 08:18 AM

Joe. I have perfect skin tones also. I wonder how skin tones will look on the screen when I get my VPL-vw200? :)

Alan Gouger

12-08-07, 09:46 AM

As far the pictures I posted I choose those to show off how rich the image can be. Yes I have the color cranked a little to give that CRT look for the sake of the picture but here are a few pics of the same movie off imdb and you will see the skin tones run red/hot. Not at all the norm. Do not judge the Sonys reproduction of skin tones based on my screen caps as thats the style of the movie not the projector injecting inaccurate color.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0113.jpg
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_022.jpg

Mark thanks on the bulb. Good to know.

joerod

12-08-07, 01:01 PM

Good one Mark. I wondered if anyone was going to get that. :)

Cine4Home

12-08-07, 07:15 PM

My Ruby went from 710 lumens to ~ 480 lumens at 590 hours. The ~30% seems standard for all lamp types on the forum. How big is "very huge"?

~400 Lumens left... after 110 hours

Regards,
Ekkehart

HoustonHoyaFan

12-08-07, 09:24 PM

~400 Lumens left... after 110 hours What was the 0 hour starting number?

W.Mayer

12-09-07, 11:38 AM

my ruby i had start at 690 lumen and after
150 hours i just have 430 lumen.

thats a huge drop almost 40% in only 150 hours.

my new christie 3 chip dlp (1000 w) that use the same lamp type that
the qualia 700w or ruby 400w use have after 170 hours no drop at all.
reason is that the first 100 hours the lamp goes up (about 10%) in light out not down!
i have already post at avs why this type of lamps at a qualia and a ruby lost so much
and in my dlp not.

this are the no. from robert from france that have the same pr. as i have.
for some reason i dont know i have a little bit higher lumens
(almost 7000 lumen at 100 hours) but that can be also measurment differences.

Time Full Power / Iris 0 / D65

26h 5982
100h 6426 +7%
197h 5831 -2%
300h 5397 -10%
400h 5252 -12%
500h 5018 -16%
575h 4868 -19%
700h 5076 -15%
805h 4585 -23%
902h 4437 -26%
1000h 4217 -30%

robert can you please post your light drop no. from your qualia that you had
so people can compare it better.

Andy Garcia

12-09-07, 12:07 PM

i will not buy any pr. that have over 30C:):):)

from now on main thing is the temperature
of a projector.:D:D:D

sorry cant stop me when i read it.

I found a new test criteria !:cool:

what´s about the aerodynamic efficiency of a pj ?:confused:

will my pj create a vortex?:confused:

hope i get intelligent feedback::eek:

W.Mayer

12-09-07, 12:46 PM

I found a new test criteria !:cool:

what´s about the aerodynamic efficiency of a pj ?:confused:

will my pj create a vortex?:confused:

hope i get intelligent feedback::eek:

yes good points:)

but serious i understand that he may get excited when he use the first time
such a camera and see the first pictures but i think that this goes much
to deep inside for the a typical pr. user.
we know already where the hot air comes out.

testing agency like in us "ul" or in germany "ce" will take care about it.
even very interestet guys not take care about it.
at least not the one i know.
much more interesting will be to read the 200 test and please this time if i can
suggest it with ansi cr.no.

robena

12-09-07, 12:48 PM

robert can you please post your light drop no. from your qualia that you had
so people can compare it better.

Here they are:

Lamp 1
------

33h 1522
92h 1350 -11%
150h 1238 -19%
200h 1167 -23%
255h 1092 -28%
317h 1005 -34%
402h 952 -37%
450h 860 -44%

Lamp 2
------

0h 1390
30h 1220 -12%
75h 1138 -18%
100h 1178 -15%
200h 1013 -27%
543 728 -48%

Lamp 3
------

0h 1483
440h 784 -47%

Lamp 4
------

0h 1350
475h 768 -43%

I had to change each lamp at 500 hours with the Qualia. I'm glad this is no longer necessary with the Christie.

W.Mayer

12-09-07, 01:38 PM

i can only hope for people that purchase the 200 ( and need high lumens )
that this is
not anymore the case because of different
design they may use to tread the light from the lamp to the optic.

Ohlson

12-09-07, 03:51 PM

joeycalda

12-09-07, 04:30 PM

Hey Alan what about a few more screen shots with a couple of different movies? I for one would appreciate it as the local Sony dealer is not getting in the 200 and it seems like the next step for me as I usally always close the iris on my DLP projector to give me more contrast and more CRT like images (natural 3-d effect) unlike the unnatural 3-d effect of a bright DLP.

Joey

W.Mayer

12-09-07, 06:46 PM

What is it about lower power lamps that makes them go to half brightness so fast.
Also why is it that the 700w xenon in Qualia go down so fast?
Is there a major difference between a 1kW xenon and 400/700W xenons?
This is why I long for lasers and things have started to move in that department.

if you read my post you have read it already.
sorry but i am so tired to post some many things so many times.
i remember good when i post here a important thing 3 or 4 time that a guy
complain about it.
yes we need some new light soures but as i told beside green laser
that have the right power to make a front pr. blue and read is still
a problem for semiconductor laser.

i will be open a tread soon about the sense or nosense from screen shots
with some sample pictures.

oliverg

12-09-07, 07:01 PM

Sony price sheet lists the same replacement lamp and housing for both the VPL-vw200 and the to be discontinued next month VPL-vw100. Any bulb in a housing can be replaced reusing the housing. But it is a dangerous exercise. The raw bulb will set you back $500 and the right bulb supplier (alan has the name) if you send him the cage will insert the bulb for you. However shipping cages back and forth and doing it yourself, not for me. Any Sony dealer can order single units of the bulb in the cage, Sony no longer requires orders in 4 quantities for these. Often a dealer will appreciate that you bought the projector from him/her and supply replacement bulbs and cages at close to cost.

I just went through this exercise with my Ruby and my RP 70" - Only cost me $350 for the Ruby globe and took 2 hours to change - the XBR2 lamp took 30 mins. Its not that hard (but tricky the first time).

Dealers in Australia are charging $1600 AUD (1200 US) for a Ruby lamp - so for us, $350 is a huge saving.

By the way - Laser based monitors are already a proof of concept reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_TV

Ohlson

12-10-07, 07:12 AM

W.Mayer
I am sorry but in reading this thread I did not find any post explaining the particular xenon drop of Ruby and Qualia. Figures have been posted but no explanation for what is happening since 1kW xenon behaves differently.

Art Sonneborn

12-10-07, 09:42 AM

Not knowing a thing about this but I distinctly remember Tom Stites of JVC telling me a couple of years ago is to build with a larger lamp and preage it since the light output drop is steap for the first 200 hours then levels out dropping then much more gradually.

Art

Alan Gouger

12-10-07, 12:16 PM

Im guessing Mayers projector takes a full size short arc xenon where the Sony 100/200 use the smaller Ceramic Xenon Lamp. I use non ceramic in my film projectors and they last forever and do not dim like what we are seeing in the Sony. It might be something related to the Ceramic design.

W.Mayer

12-10-07, 12:35 PM

no the lamps are all the same design.

this drop have nothing to do with the lamp itself.
when a lamp manufakturer measure a lamp the measured the dircet light and all
the indirect light(all thogether)

now the qualia filters with a lot of apertures scattering light out because that destroy
the cr.
by the time the lamp gets older the ratio between direct light and indirect light
shift to more indirect light because the arc from the xenon bulb gets bigger
and therefore the lamp produce more scattering light.
but that is filter out from the pr. by all the apatures.

if you measure a pure lamp not in a pr. like the qualia after 500 houres you will find may
good 30% decrease but not much more.
different in the a pr. like a qualia a ruby or may also the vw200.
here the lost is arround 50% in the same time.

christie have less apatures and they use a specially design that capture
all light include the scattering light and use it.

hope my english is good enough that you understand it.

Alan Gouger

12-10-07, 02:00 PM

Good post with good info. Thanks Mayer!!

Alan Gouger

12-10-07, 02:21 PM

Ohlson

12-10-07, 03:52 PM

mark haflich

12-10-07, 05:28 PM

I think Phillips has gone green and has decided to eliminate steroids from its production line. :)

Alan Gouger

12-10-07, 11:43 PM

A few screen caps from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. ( Blue Ray )
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6479.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6478.JPG

joeycalda

12-11-07, 03:06 AM

Alan Gouger

12-11-07, 09:11 AM

My screen will probably not go bigger tha 8 feet for a while as I still enjoy my 2 channel music and my main speakers are optimal at 8 feet apart. So this projector seems like it has enough horsepower to properly light up my 1.3 gain Stewart.

Question: What has better blacks this projector or the CX3 1080p?
What has better contrast on/off?

i assume the DLP has better ansi contrast but who knows?

Joey

The VW200 has been measured at 30K:1 on/off. DLP will always have superior ANSI. Blacks are excellent on the VW200 and ANSI is very satisfying as is the convergence:)
My screen is 8 feet wide scope, grey negative gain. Plenty bright.

mark haflich

12-11-07, 11:41 AM

Alan. Now that I am getting both a C3x 1080 and VPL-vw200, I am thinking of replacing my studeotec fabric with the new grayhawk (0.8 gain). Its very cheap for me to do this using my old 4 way masking frame and given dealer accomodations. What do you think? If you had a choice, starting from scratch, what would you choose for the VPL-vw200 and the C3x 1080p. Probably different questions and answers. Also remembering I am coming fom a FP CRT with great blacks.

Alan Gouger

12-11-07, 01:03 PM

Mark

I think the new Grayhawk is perfect. While the VW200 does not equal the 1080 C3X in brightness it is still far brighter then a CRT. I notice Gray taming that extra brightness a little & I can see it further enhancing perceived contrast. I really think this is a very good choice.

Spending some serious coinage, looks like its going to be a nice holiday season for
Mark:)

008

12-11-07, 02:34 PM

Alan Gouger

12-11-07, 03:00 PM

Are you using an anamorphic lense Alan. If so which one ?

At the moment I am using the Isco 3 with the Cineslide motorized sled :)

millerwill

12-11-07, 03:43 PM

A few screen caps from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. ( Blue Ray )
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6479.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_6478.JPG

Are the greens really as 'GREEN' as they look in these shots? (They look greener than my RS1.)

lovingdvd

12-11-07, 03:56 PM

Are the greens really as 'GREEN' as they look in these shots? (They look greener than my RS1.)

You can't really go by that because your monitor you are using to look at those screen shots could be way oversaturated. So the green you are seeing and the green others are seeing or the OP is seeing may all be totally different. Screen shots are mainly for fun IMO and not for critical judging - although in some cases screens can be helpful in judging sharpness.

joerod

12-11-07, 04:11 PM

I agree with lovingdvd 100% (mainly on screen shot judging) however I will say the greens are that good! ;)

Alan Gouger

12-11-07, 04:31 PM

Those shots are still un calibrated for color. Ive yet to touch the color management controls. You can shift the color green and or dial it down to your liking or to spec.

George Kouzev

12-11-07, 05:34 PM

Has anyone compared fan noise levels between VW200 and VW 60? Are they about the same? Sony lists the same noise levels for both on their site.

Thanks

ca1ore

12-11-07, 08:30 PM

Has anyone been getting this projector? Doesn't seem, since the early trickle of a few, that Sony has been shipping?

joerod

12-11-07, 08:36 PM

I have had both in the exact same spot and they are nearly the same. I will say the VW200 does run slightly quieter... I never seem to notice it is on where as the with the 60 I sometimes could hear it...

We just watched Catwoman (not my choice of course) on SD dvd and I will say it looked exceptional. I used my Onkyo HD805 to play it and the VW200 displayed it with perfect detail. Close ups looked so good you could not even tell it was not HD at times.

Alan, which Gamma have you been using? I am still wrestling with gamma OFF and gamma 1 and still sometimes 3. I mainly use 3 with Dynamic for sports though. For movies I am in between 1 and OFF... It used to be an easy call with the VW100 and VW60... Not with the VW200...:)

Last I heard only 37 units shipped to the U.S. :eek:

reincarnate

12-12-07, 05:50 AM

:cool:Alan. Now that I am getting both a C3x 1080 and VPL-vw200, I am thinking of replacing my studeotec fabric with the new grayhawk (0.8 gain). Its very cheap for me to do this using my old 4 way masking frame and given dealer accomodations. What do you think? If you had a choice, starting from scratch, what would you choose for the VPL-vw200 and the C3x 1080p. Probably different questions and answers. Also remembering I am coming fom a FP CRT with great blacks.

Projectors with high Static Contrast Quote:
"There is sufficient contrast on this projector to forego the high contrast gray screens unless there is a lot of reflected light from walls, ceilings, and carpets in the viewing room. In a room where walls and surfaces are darkened and non-reflective, we prefer the white screens. In viewing on both the Stewart Grayhawk RS (a 0.9 gain high contrast gray screen) and the Stewart Studiotek 130 (a 1.3 gain white screen), the latter produced the more vibrant and satisfying image with the RS2 as it did with the RS1."

Does the 200 have a sufficient native contrast to not require a grey screen?

I use an RS1 at 110" with a 2.8 HP screen for a bright, hard-hitting, high contrast dynamic picture. I've never once had an issue with lack of good blacks. Its all about producing an image which falls within our eyes most linear and active region. My eyes can be modeled like a transistor: cutoff :(, active/linear :) and saturated regions. :cool:

Has anyone ever been to commercial movie theater which uses grey screen?:confused:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_dla_rs2_home_theater_projector.htm

W.Mayer

12-12-07, 06:27 AM

W.Mayer
Thanks
Now I understand and more with me the x mystery of brightness disappearing. Do you have any idea why Philips has not completed the CPL development. The idea with CPL was to make UHP on steroids with a more xenon like spectrum to replace the lower power range of xenon lamps.

i am not sure but i think they did it already.

i also heare that the sim2 ht 3000e may have such a lamp inside.
the call it "Unishape Technologie"

if i remember right that is a pulse modulation to get better color
but i am not sure.

what i am sure the ht 3000e shows very very nice colors and
its a bright pr.

mark haflich

12-12-07, 08:02 AM

My screen is relatively small, 54 x 96. My HT is a black pit except for the dark navy carpet (the stage floor is black too, covered the carpet there). My FP CRT has really really good blacks, nothing like the to me crappy blacks of the best digitals re blacks (the RS2 and VPL-vw200). Compared to my CRT they just don't cut it. The smaller the screeen the higher the reference black level will be. The fact that soething doesn't bother somebody is irrelevant to me. Now the digital will beat the CRT in many ways. In the one way it won't, I can help things by say a gray screen and a ND filter. Frankly, if a black screen gave me a better picture, I'd use that. Anyone ever see a movie theater that had a silver screen? I don't watch the screen. I watch what comes off the screen. If I don't like the gray hawk, I'll just put back my studeotec, no big deal. For me, at dealer accomodation, it will not be a very expensive experiment.

Alan Gouger

12-12-07, 09:29 AM

Mark

reincarnate brings up some good points. The RS1 and VW200 look great on a white screen without a doubt.
I am taking into consideration you are coming from CRT.
With a gray screen and a 4x ND filter coupled to the VW200 you will be able to do the hand puppet and have very close to pure black bringing you down to maybe 1 IRE. The best from the digital world anyway with enough ANSI and pop on the upper end to leave a convincing image that is not flat. Im running the VW200 in Iris 2 mode. It does its magic and you do not know its on. Iris 1 works great as well and will give you true black but unless its an all dark movie it can be a little to aggressive for my taste at times.

tryingtimes

12-12-07, 09:31 AM

Alan - did you mean to write "Iris 2" twice? :confused:

mark haflich

12-12-07, 09:36 AM

I've never done the hand puppet but long ago I did the hand jive. You might not be old enough to remember that song and dance.

joerod

12-12-07, 09:42 AM

Maybe he did mean Iris 2. I would like to know what he is preferring. I have not tried Iris 2 mainly just Iris 1 mode. More tweaking later... :)

Alan Gouger

12-12-07, 10:02 AM

Sorry guys, post edited :)

Joe

I think I am using Gamma 2 Ill ck. I am using the memory locations verses the presets. Ive set one up for HDTV with motionflow and a few for movies.

BOBCAT

12-12-07, 10:55 AM

Hi Alan,
Did you find the memory location to do the "light cannon " tweak like in the VW100?
Al

Alan Gouger

12-12-07, 11:15 AM

Hi Alan,
Did you find the memory location to do the "light cannon " tweak like in the VW100?
Al

Yes everything is in the service menu. I did not make any changes as its not needed at this point. My picture is plenty bright. Not all the options that were in the 100 are in the 200 service menu but the ones needed for the iris are indeed there. At 16k retail I caution anyone thinking of making any changes in the service menu!

joerod

12-12-07, 11:23 AM

Gamma 2 I will try then as well. :) I still have not ventured into the service menu at this point. I am a little apprehensive at this time. Especially since the picture is plenty bright now...

joeycalda

12-12-07, 06:11 PM

Hey Joey why would you go to a digital projector if you only have an *8* foot screen and had a 9 inch CRT?

Yes that's me talking to myself....!!!:eek:

I am going to put my 9 9500lc back up since I really have no desire to go any bigger.:o

mark haflich

12-12-07, 06:11 PM

To boldly go where no one has gone before. Beam me up Alan.

008

12-13-07, 05:20 PM

At the moment I am using the Isco 3 with the Cineslide motorized sled :)

Did you come away from the Prismasonic 1500 and go back to the Isco ?

Alan Gouger

12-13-07, 07:43 PM

Did you come away from the Prismasonic 1500 and go back to the Isco ?

My aperture is too large for what I am doing for the Prismasonic.

008

12-14-07, 02:34 PM

My aperture is too large for what I am doing for the Prismasonic.

Oh OK. What screen size are you using. I thought the Prismasonic was supposed to be fairly flexible in that regard

Alan Gouger

12-14-07, 04:55 PM

Oh OK. What screen size are you using. I thought the Prismasonic was supposed to be fairly flexible in that regard

My projector is behind the back wall firing out a porthole. Because the Sony is larger then the previous projector I had to move it back further which is now further away from my pre installed lens location.

joerod

12-14-07, 05:29 PM

We are really going to be putting the VW200 to work this weekend! :eek:

joerod

12-14-07, 08:13 PM

Alan, I just applied your cool C2 trick with the VW200 and WOW! :eek: You are absolutely right. I have Riddick HD DVD in now and it looks even better than before!!!

mark haflich

12-14-07, 08:19 PM

Joe. Would you post the throw ratios for this unit. I can't find it on the spec sheet.

joerod

12-14-07, 08:20 PM

I will but I do know P.C. has them up now for it... :)

I think they are the exact ones as the VW100...

oliverg

12-14-07, 08:47 PM

What's the cool C2 trick? :)

joerod

12-14-07, 09:12 PM

Do High gamma (in the Image area of the C2) and then adjust it to about 10. Sometimes a little less depending on the movie. It gives great Ansi punch while keeping inky blacks! Try it with your Ruby!

aham23

12-14-07, 09:19 PM

hey joerod, you have a REALLY expensive movie theater with a REALLY expensive PJ. shouldnt you be watching it right now? im not saying, im just saying! :)

oliverg

12-14-07, 09:20 PM

I've used low IRE around 5-10. Normal looks good too, but even after calibration I've seen some crushing. I now use +5 adjustment on normal.. that seems to keep the grey scale happy :)

I think the C2 suffers from a problem similar to the SI issue with certain soruces, clipping below 16 .. blacker than blacks don't work very well with the analog inputs.

Small price to pay for such a great VP though.

oliverg

12-14-07, 09:22 PM

hey joerod, you have a REALLY expensive movie theater with a REALLY expensive PJ. shouldnt you be watching it right now? im not saying, im just saying! :)

If Joe is anything like me, he's using the C2's PIP so we can be on the PC while watching a movie ;)

Well.. for casual viewing anyway

aham23

12-14-07, 09:26 PM

If Joe is anything like me, he's using the C2's PIP so we can be on the PC while watching a movie ;)

Well.. for casual viewing anyway

man, you dudes are living the dream then. :D

later.

joerod

12-14-07, 11:44 PM

I was watching the movie. I just came up for a brief break and figured I would post about these excellent results... :)

wmccain

12-15-07, 04:35 AM

I am a film buff so I do not care about the 120hz but I have to say I love the Film mode with Blank Frame insertion.Actually, the VW200 uses the 120 Hz panels in two quite different ways, each of them separately configurable (Motionflow Film Projection and Motionflow Motion Enhancer, in the "Picture Menu"). One of them, Motionflow Film Projection, is important for truly correct film reproduction.

With a 60 Hz projector, movie frames (at 24 fps) must be shown alternately 2 times and 3 times (which, as you certainly know, is the "frame" version of "2/3 pulldown"). This means that (say) odd-numbered frames are shown for 1/30 of a second and the even-numbered frames are shown for 1/20 of a second — and none of them are actually shown for 1/24 of a second. Some people can see this discrepancy, some cannot. It is known as "micro-judder".

With a 120 Hz projector, on the other hand, 24 fps film material can be shown correctly: 5 times per frame (5 x 24 = 120), so each frame is displayed for exactly 1/24 of a second.

It is conceivable that the VW100 and the VW200 both support a 48 Hz refresh rate, which is (of course) a simpler way to achieve true 24 fps projection. But there is no mention of this anywhere in Sony's literature. A 72 Hz refresh rate (3 x 24 = 72) is used in some PC-based playback systems, for the same reason (elimination of "micro-judder").

Side-note: Theater (film) projectors actually show motion pictures at 48 fps — each frame is shown twice, with a brief blank interval in between each showing. The reason for this is heat. Showing a film frame continuously for (nearly) 1/24 of a second would overheat (and possibly burn) the film! To accurately reproduce "movie theater flicker" electronically, you would probably need to project at 96 Hz (for an "on/off/on/off" pattern per frame) or at 144 Hz (for a "2on/1off/2on/1off" pattern per frame).

Tambiman

12-15-07, 05:24 AM

And another review:
http://review.zdnet.com/projectors-presentation-devices/sony-vpl-vw200/4505-3180_16-32638534.html

"...As of this writing, the Sony VPL-VW200 is the new high-end projector to beat..."

joerod

12-15-07, 06:46 AM

I knew I was right! :D

Oh and good stuff wmccain! :)

Sandel

12-15-07, 07:36 AM

Could some of the VW200 owners tell me if it's worth upgrading from an RS1 to the VW200?
I'm pretty satisfied with the picture performance of my RS1, but I don't like the micro-judder and the manual lens shift of it.
Any comments?

joerod

12-15-07, 07:46 AM

I liked the thorough review. I especially liked the comment that it is the most accurate PJ for under 30K they have seen... :eek:

HoustonHoyaFan

12-15-07, 07:56 AM

In terms of overall picture quality, Sony's VPL-VW200 is simply the best projector in its class by a wide margin...
'Nuff said! :)

mark haflich

12-15-07, 07:59 AM

Very very very few people own one yet. The list price difference is $9K. While street differences are nowhere near that, street differences are nevertheless substantial. One must know what they are in order to offer an opinion or make a decision. One must be able to afford the difference too. That said, the RS1 isn't bad. The RS2 is better and worth the minimal (at this price level) street difference. The 200 is a lot better. To me worth the substantial street difference.

mark haflich

12-15-07, 08:08 AM

And what a rediculous statement. Its the one to beat. Please. Its good but for more money there are better. Let's see a Sony VPL-vw200 or a Sim2 HT5000 or a HT3000E, especially if you have a very large screen. For the price, and the right size screen and a HT environment where high CR can indeed be seen, the Sony might be one to beat. For me, its right. A good buying choice. But so would the new Marantz for example or the Sim2 HT380 especially when it gets the DC4.

Sandel

12-15-07, 08:23 AM

@mark haflich
Thank you for your brief rating of the two PJs!

BTW, did Sony resolve the problem with the bright corners in the meant-to-be black screens here?

mark haflich

12-15-07, 08:24 AM

God. I really like te 200, but that review sucks. I would run screaming away from that review.

Lets see, if you start with 1080i and scale, whoops you moron reviewer, deinterlace to 1080p and thus double the input resolution, you lose resolution compared to starting out with a resolution twice that. Duh. The twice the resolution looks better. Duh. Further, nothing can perfectly deinterlace VIDEO. There will always be some artifacts.

A review based on how it looks on an 80 inch wide screen?

No mention of a real loss of resolution when you engage the convergence features and adjust in the mid pixel range.

No real understanding of the various motion features film vs video.

Buy the projector becaus its good. The review, its very very low quality.

joerod

12-15-07, 08:57 AM

I use a crystalio II anyway so I am not relying on the 200's scaling but from what I tested it had outstanding scaling. Not sure what he was doing in that part of his review. Other than that is is nice review especially since at least he touched on all the features. Of course I could have done better... :D

lovingdvd

12-15-07, 09:01 AM

...a 48 Hz refresh rate, which is (of course) a simpler way to achieve true 24 fps projection... But there is no mention of this anywhere in Sony's literature. A 72 Hz refresh rate (3 x 24 = 72) is used in some PC-based playback systems, for the same reason (elimination of "micro-judder").

[QUOTE=Sandel;12496646]Could some of the VW200 owners tell me if it's worth upgrading from an RS1 to the VW200?
I'm pretty satisfied with the picture performance of my RS1, but I don't like the micro-judder and the manual lens shift of it.
Any comments?

Are you sure you are not having smooth 1080p/24 playback. According to the post above projectors with a 48hz should handle 1080/24 perfectly, and the RS1 does this.

joerod

12-15-07, 09:04 AM

Good point. Being able to see micro judder is not easy for most. Are you sure it is not something else with your RS1? The ones I have viewed seem to do it perfectly...

lovingdvd

12-15-07, 09:04 AM

God. I really like te 200, but that review sucks. I would run screaming away from that review.

Hi Mark - When are you expecting your C3X and VW200? Or have you received them already (may have missed a post)?

mark haflich

12-15-07, 10:06 AM

No. Neither yet. My firsts and seconds and thirds and fourths are going to customers. I think the c3x will arrive first. I have no shipping date info on the second batch of VPL-vw200s.

mark haflich

12-15-07, 11:10 AM

Joe, Its not the deinterlacing artifacts I am talking about. A 1080p source such as bluray is twice the resolution as a 1080i. The doubling is artificial. Having twice the resolution to begin with means a much better, detailed accurate picture regardless of how good artificial generation may be. Sony's 1080i deinterlacing of film is as good as anybody's. They are all pretty good. Deinterlacing of video is another story. No one's is perfect, they can't be. Compromises are required based on processing cost and priorities. Your Crystalio's deinterlacing of video may indeed be better. I prefer the Radiance's video deinterlacing to that of Sony's but most people are not fixed on looking for deinterlacing errors as I am and the Sony is certainly quite good here if not state of the consumer art.

BOBCAT

12-15-07, 11:33 AM

joerod, mark haflich,
The review said that the 200 didn't have horizontal lens shift. Is that true?
Wouldn't think that they would have eliminated that.

wmccain

12-15-07, 02:56 PM

No real understanding of the various motion features film vs video.I was quite struck by the reviewer's failure to understand that "Motionflow" is actually two separate features, one related to film projection and one dealing with motion interpolation (mainly intended to "improve" video sources). He says to "turn it off" — presumably, he is referring to the "Motionflow Motion Enhancer" feature, but anybody reading (and believing) that article would probably turn off the "Motionflow Film Projection" feature as well. And that would be a mistake.

Overall, though, the review fairly reasonable. In the VW200, Sony clearly addressed virtually every shortcoming of the VW100 — and produced a $15,000 projector that clearly compares favorably to the $30,000 competition. I think the CNET reviewer was so "giddy" about the VW200's accurate color rendition that he got "sloppy" about the other points ...

joerod

12-15-07, 03:04 PM

That is exactly how I would sum up his review. As I have posted countless times I really like Motionflow Enhancer for sports. It really puts you in the crowd. Now for movies I don't use it but we definitely like the Film Projection Mode. I can't wait for more end users to get this PJ!

wmccain

12-15-07, 03:19 PM

joerod, mark haflich,
The review said that the 200 didn't have horizontal lens shift. Is that true?
Wouldn't think that they would have eliminated that.What the reviewer meant is that the VW200 (like the VW100) does not have a motorized horizontal shift (which, in some projectors, can displace the picture substantially in the horizontal direction, much like the motorized vertical shift).

The VW200 retains the same "horizontal fine adjustment" that the VW100 has. Which is done with a screwdriver.

This brings up a point that I have been "mulling over": Several reviewers have stated that the VW200 has a "new lens" (compared to the VW100). I strongly suspect that is not the case. The lens charts in the VW100 and VW200 user guides (throw distances and vertical displacement) are identical, down to the millimeter. It is highly unlikely that two different lenses, produced by two different optical manufacturers, would have such identical specifications.

Sony's literature for both the VW100 and the VW200 refers to the lens as "ARC-F" (for "All Range Crisp Focus"). For the VW200 (only), Sony's Web site says that it is a "Carl Zeiss® multi-element glass lens" (as was the case with the Qualia 004). But the Zeiss attribution does not appear anywhere in the VW200's "collateral" (the PDF "spec sheet") or in the VW200's user guide.

I suspect that Zeiss has been making this lens for the VW100 and VW200 all long. Perhaps, with the VW200, Sony's marketing folks decided to pay Zeiss a few more bucks for "attribution" (but too late to make it into the printed literature).

What the VW200 does have, clearly, is an improved motorized aperture — or (at least), improved firmware that drives the motorized aperture "better".

BOBCAT

12-15-07, 03:41 PM

wmccain,
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Plan on picking a 200 up next year.
For now, the 100 plays just fine. Pirates of the Caribbean At World's End looked outstanding.

mark haflich

12-15-07, 03:44 PM

joerod

12-15-07, 04:30 PM

I just recently had the VW60, then before that the VW100 and I would have to say the VW200 has to have a different lens...

wmccain

12-15-07, 04:45 PM

Joe,

No offense intended, but your nice ceiling-mounted VW200 is "spoiled" by a bunch of messy wires. Here is how I mounted my VW100 (to be replaced by a VW200 in January):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96752&d=1197756544

Now, this photo is taken from the side opposite the "jack panel". To be honest, the wires are (very briefly) visible from the other side, where the jack panel is located. (My old Vidikron CRT had a "modesty skirt", a metal cover that concealed the jack panel, which made the wires totally invisible in an overhead installation. Unfortunately, Sony's current projectors lack any way to conceal the wires at the jacks.)

My installation was particularly challenging because of the 15-foot peaked cathedral ceiling. (Someday I plan to have a full basement dug out underneath my house. Then I will have a dedicated home theater. Right now, the house has a 1/4 basement, which is fully occupied by furnace, water heater, drill press and table saw, and my server rack.)

But the cathedral ceiling has beams at about the 10-foot height, and I have added to those beams to produce a "drop platform" (which looks like a "bird feeder") for my projector. The projector mount is Sony's now-discontinued "black pipe" model — to which I added a second black pipe to contain the wires (it's actually a gray PVC pipe, spray-painted black semi-gloss). The "wire pipe" is located behind, and parallel to, the structural pipe (and I had to use a carbide-tipped "hole saw" to cut a hole in the mount's base plate so that the "wire pipe" could pass through it). The wires are also concealed in channels cut in the topside of the beams (using a router).

The "bird feeder" can be adjusted back-and-forth on the beam (about two feet in each direction). This allows for future projectors with different "throw distances". The "bird feeder" also adjusts side-to-side (only about 3/4 of a inch, but that's plenty because it rotates — that is, the front can go left while the rear goes right or vice versa). This takes care of the "horizontal displacement adjustment" without having to take a screwdriver to the lens itself!

mark haflich

12-15-07, 06:16 PM

Tell me one of those wires is an HDMI. You dress an HDMI wire like that (nice tight 90 degree turns) and normally its history.

joerod

12-15-07, 06:28 PM

Keep in mind that was me hurrying up and getting it up so I can post some shots. I have since then of course neatly made them go into my Key Digital Blasters (HDMI cables) and ran them into their inputs without the tangled mess. I was just trying to hurry up and be a thread starter! :D

wmccain

12-15-07, 06:40 PM

Tell me one of those wires is an HDMI. You dress an HDMI wire like that (nice tight 90 degree turns) and normally its history.Yes, one of them is an HDMI cable. And it works just fine. But no really "tight" 90 degree turns. If I took a photo of the other side, you would see that the HDMI wire goes through a 180 degree turn with a diameter of about 3 inches (as it emerges from the jack panel and turns back toward the wire pipe at the center of the projector). It has a similar broad "radius of curvature" when it enters the wire pipe.

I never bend a wire to the point of "creasing" it!

Side-note: I wonder if there are "right-angle plugs" available for HDMI. Could be convenient in situations such as this. In another application, I have used USB cables with right-angle plugs to solve a "sticky problem". And right-angle RCA plugs are fairly common ...

GG386

12-15-07, 07:26 PM

What is the minimum throw ratio on the 200?
Speaking of cables, I have read where a new HDMI cable is being made that "clicks" into the socket. As you know, it doesn't take much to wiggle these cables loose:(

lovingdvd

12-15-07, 07:51 PM

According to the Sony design engineer for the projector I talked to at a show, the lens on the 200 is much better and much more expensive than the one on the 100, 60, 50, 40 yada yada.

I can try and find out for sure but the comparison sheets I have from Sony indicate that the lens on the 200 is special.

Regarding horizontal lens shift, it is loosen screws holding the lens in place, move the lens mount hoprizontally, and then retightened. Not really a turn the screw for adjustment. Rather loosen the screws so you can adjust. Not for me. We normally mount Sony's on Chief mount RPA020 and an accessory called the LSB100. This adds a lateral shift to the mount and obviates the need for lateral lens shift. It shifts the whole projector to get horizontal screen center right on. The thing costs about $50.

Sounds just like the procedure for adjusting horizontal shift on the Ruby, which I did. Its pretty straight forward and I would recommend it over the lateral shift bracket. Its actually quite simple to do even for the mechanically-challenged like myself. The most important thing is to make sure you are careful not to scratch the lens with the screw driver (cap cannot be on during this adjustment). I took my time and went very slow.