An open letter to all Blu-ray studios… re: Java Use

While I know that insiders such as paidgeek don’t necessarily post to AVS anymore, I have no doubt that they still lurk. And since it was suggestions from these forums that got things as minute as what kind of stickum is used on security stickers changed, I feel compelled to bring this issue to the forefront.

As for history, I have been, since the launch of both formats, more red leaning than blue, almost without hesitation. I would buy the HD-DVD versions of Warner and Paramount titles and was less than a complete fan of the Blu-ray format. That all changed with the release of the Panasonic BD30. I have been able to realize that it has been the hardware, and not the software, that has been keeping Blu-ray from making the appropriate steps forward. Now that there is a player that I feel allows me to fully enjoy the benefits of Blu-ray, I have been busy converting much of my collection from red to blue. I recently partook in the Amazon 3-for-2 sale and replaced 12 of my Warner HD titles for Blu-ray for two simple reasons… Speed and Resume. The Panasonic player loads most discs in about 20 seconds and allows you to resume all basic authored discs, even after turning the player off. This, for whatever reason, is a nice advantage to me and I’m enjoying the new flexibility that this is giving me… except for

--JAVA--

I am noticing a more and more frequent trend (especially from Sony and Fox) of titles being authored in Java. This is troublesome for two reasons… Speed and Resume. As anyone here is already aware, the loading of a Java disc can take anywhere from 20-30 seconds (the PS3) to over 2.5 minutes (almost anything else). While the Panasonic is now certainly much closer to the PS3 than the Pioneer, Java still adds anywhere from 25-40 seconds to the load time and it also completely kills resume on every player.

Now I’m all for Java when there is a reason to author in it. Disney’s recent Santa Clause 3 has a clever Christmas decorator activity that clearly couldn’t be there without Java authoring. But why (other than the inclusion of bookmarks) is the original Spiderman authored in Java? There’s absolutely no features on the disc whatsoever, so now we have an example of authoring a disc in Java just to say you did rather than because you should have or had to. Similarly, the Die Hard releases are all authored in Java, and other than flashy menu animations and personal scene selections, the only thing the Java gives me is longer load times and no resume. I can do personal scene selections on a basic disc; I just go into scene selections and personally select a scene. Same ultimate effect. Legend of Zorro is another disc with Java authoring… Not for any features or because it’s necessary, but simply so we can have overly complicated menus with swords that move when you make selections.

So, to all you Blu-ray studios out there, please be judicious in your use of Java authoring, because there are some downsides to it as well. I completely understand that with the upcoming profile 1.1 discs, Java is going to be necessary, but I really feel it should be used only in concert with special features (and only with special features that actually need it). Use it when you need to and not simply because you want to or feel the need to show something off. A good rule of thumb would be that if you’re only using it for menus or menu related functions (like personal scene selections or bookmarking) then you’re misusing it and making your discs more complicated than they need to be (after all, how many players have needed firmware updates because they have trouble with basic authoring… not a lot).

I agree.

Frankly, I could do without all these fancy Java features.

I'm not a "just give me the movie" guy by any means, but I'm fine with "simple" video extras like documentaries, commentaries, and deleted scenes. I don't need or even want more interactivity than selecting something to watch from a simple menu - make it easier with a "play all" option. Leave the games to the video game developers.

My PC can't play Java disks off the Blu-Ray drive without stutter.
If I copy them and play from hard disk they play perfectly ... but I'm then tempted to sell the original Blu-Ray disk I can't play.

Java and BD+ are tempting me into piracy!

Just give me 24bit lossless audio and max out the video bit rate and you can chunk all the fluff in the trash can.;)

But somehow I don't think anyone is going to listen this time. :( The studios seem adamant on all this interactive nonsense.
I hear that, but I'll give you a specific example of what I'm talking about. On Superbad (a Java disc) other than the basic navigational enhancements (bookmarks) there's a Java feature that tabulates all the crude language, sexual references, and mentions of McLovin. It's a small graphic on the upper left corner of the screen and every time they say something (in)appropriate, the numbers tick one higher. Nothing fancy. This could have easily been done as a subtitle stream, so doing it in Java only saves time for the designers/feature producers, but at the expense of the consumer. So in this case, they could have kept the same feature, but created it using basic techniques. The same could not be said for the Santa Clause 3 feature.

So don't blame HD DVD for lack of resume and slow speed. When Blu-ray is burdened with the same feature set, it's just as slow and crippled (except for PS3).

If they don't want to drop the Java, how 'bout giving us a choice to load with or without it, if possible?

I say NO to Java. Since the newer titles have starting coming out, my PS3 controller's abilities have been taken away. It is really annoying to not be able to FF and REW using the arrow keys. I have made my concern known to the studios but I guess it will fall on deaf ears since PS3 users are not the only ones watching BR disks, though that may be the largest population of BR users.

Should the studios decide to implement this feature, they should work closely with HW manufacturers to make sure disks are fully functional after the implementation. Why could Sony not test their Spiderman release on PS3 before releasing with such features???

Here's an idea...

How about the hardware manufacturers get off their arses and start implementing the damn spec already (no more of these weekly "patches" via firmware whenever a new bunch of discs comes out), which has been available to them for most of a year now? Also, how come the cheapest BD player, the PS3, is also the fastest and most compatible (or likely soon will be again) for BD-J? They need to spend a few more bucks and put a decent CPU in their machines, fast RAM (and more of it), etc.

If the hardware manufacturers and their vm architects would implement the necessary resources in their machines and actually code to spec we wouldn't be having these problems (that's not to state that all the disc developers aren't coding to spec either, but if you've tested on at least 3 machines from different manufacturers you should be good to go.) Personally, I'm very happy with my PS3 load times and performance to date with any BD-J title.

If they don't want to drop the Java, how 'bout giving us a choice to load with or without it, if possible?

I agree with this statement. You should be able to disable the Java VM from within your player's setup menu (same as you can disable Java applets in a Web browser) and the disc should default to HDMV if no VM is found upon loading the disc.

Definitely agree with OP.

Good thread. The Java stuff really should be a user selectable option. For usability, maybe the default is to use Java, but for people who just want HD image and sound give us an option to turn it off.

I timed Sony's newest Blu-ray standalone player, BDP-S500 with Sony's Surfs Up. With the player fully booted, it took 2 minutes and 10 seconds from the time the disc was inserted until Sony Blu-ray promo started. That is way too slow, even slower than my first generation Toshiba HD-XA1. Motorized door was pretty cool though...

i agree. i like fast starts and resume. lack of this mkaes hi-def worse than previous dvd format in terms of useability.

So don't blame HD DVD for lack of resume and slow speed. When Blu-ray is burdened with the same feature set, it's just as slow and crippled (except for PS3).

While I agree, the problem is that the toothpaste is already out of the tube on that one. All studio released HD-DVDs to date have been authored in advance, so to get them to go to basic authoring at this point in time would probably be almost as difficult as getting every studio to go neutral. With Java on Blu-ray, it's still a relatively hit or miss thing as to which titles are getting it and if they can be convinced that there's no need to use it other then when necessary, it'll be easier for them to try and implement Java policies now. What I wouldn't want to see is a reality six months from now where every title being released from Sony, Fox, Lionsgate, and Disney was being authored in Java, even for discs that are bare-bones, simply because they've gotten into a groove with Java by that point.

Being a Java programmer I agree with the OP.

I timed Sony's newest Blu-ray standalone player, BDP-S500 with Sony's Surfs Up. With the player fully booted, it took 2 minutes and 10 seconds from the time the disc was inserted until Sony Blu-ray promo started. That is way too slow, even slower than my first generation Toshiba HD-XA1. Motorized door was pretty cool though...

:D That's even longer than the original FW of A1 back in the day! When I pop in The Last Samurai it was about 50 seconds. And I thought that was inexcusable!!!:eek:

The players simply can't handle it with the current Profile players on the market.
I'd love a non-java title menu if I didn't own PS3 as I'm sure its slow.

your all right but understand hdm players have to do more then play movies
and dvd type special features.
i think both tosh and sony knew that right from conception.
its just a matter of a new format has to be better then the last format

your all right but understand hdm players have to do more then play movies
and dvd type special features.
i think both tosh and sony knew that right from conception.
its just a matter of a new format has to be better then the last format
It is great to have cool new features, but some people just want to watch movies without a wait. Ideally, Blu-ray would meet the needs of both.

Here's an idea...

How about the hardware manufacturers get off their arses and start implementing the damn spec already (no more of these weekly "patches" via firmware whenever a new bunch of discs comes out), which has been available to them for most of a year now? Also, how come the cheapest BD player, the PS3, is also the fastest and most compatible (or likely soon will be again) for BD-J? They need to spend a few more bucks and put a decent CPU in their machines, fast RAM (and more of it), etc.

If the hardware manufacturers and their vm architects would implement the necessary resources in their machines and actually code to spec we wouldn't be having these problems (that's not to state that all the disc developers aren't coding to spec either, but if you've tested on at least 3 machines from different manufacturers you should be good to go.) Personally, I'm very happy with my PS3 load times and performance to date with any BD-J title.

I feel the same way. We just need hardware manufacturers to develop players that can reliably and speedily handle everything within the Blu-ray spec. I find it ridiculous that the PS3 is still by far the most viable Blu-ray player on the market today. At this point, charging around $500 or more for an unreliable player that takes minutes to load many BDs is absurd.

I feel the same way. We just need hardware manufacturers to develop players that can reliably and speedily handle everything within the Blu-ray spec. I find it ridiculous that the PS3 is still by far the most viable Blu-ray player on the market today. At this point, charging around $500 or more for an unreliable player that takes minutes to load many BDs is absurd.

This PS3 is really the ONLY Blu-ray player right now (unless you need analogs out). Sony should just release a FW update for the PS3 that implements profiles 1.1 and 2.0 and be done with it. The PS3 has the HW to do it, and it is stupid to hold out a year or more and confuse everyone.

They heck with all the other 1/2 complete non-PS3 players. They only make up less than 10% of all players anyways.

This is exactly why I got a ps3 even though I wanted a standalone and even though they are cheaper. I mean, how long is this update your firmware for every movie BS gonna go on for? They are not gonna keep supporting the older models like this forever.

Does anyone really want interactive animated menus. I could care less. Its nice to have a graphic but it really doesn't have to move and do facncy stuff when a selection is made.

All HD movie formats need is better picture than DVD to make it worth it. DVD menus really got out of hand when they first came out. To the point where it was hard to even figure out how to get the movie to play.

That said I was kind of startled when I put my Fifth Element BluRay in and ended up with one of the simplest menus I have ever seen in a movie. I couldn't believe it, within seconds I could just select play movie, refreshing.

Personally I do not think the majority of special features add any value to a movie. I know some people are wowed by crazy animated menus but if they weren't there would anyone miss them.

I don't get why they just didn't allow flash based menu systems. Guess it doesn't matter. As long as studios think that fancy menus are a selling point they will keep putting them in. They'll use focus group testing with all the people that are afraid to say that they don't like something.

All HD movie formats need is better picture than DVD to make it worth it. DVD menus really got out of hand when they first came out. To the point where it was hard to even figure out how to get the movie to play.

This is what I don't like about the menu for Cars with the pointer. On a well-designed (IMHO) menu, it's obvious just from looking at it where the selections are and how to get to them. On the Cars menu with the pointer, it's a jumble where you have to sit there trying out all the directional buttons to figure out where the selections are. It's like hunting for an easter egg, but here you're just trying to find the regular selections rather than something hidden.

The resume function is such a basic feature of the dvd format.

From what I understand, the player can't provide a resume function automatically for Java disks as it has no way of knowing how to save and retrieve the state of the java application of the disk. However the Java application on the disk itself hopefully can (when appropriately programmed) save the relevant data in order to resurrect its state on resume.

Sony has been doing a lot of good things for blu-ray lately with great transfers and starting to use 24bit lossless sound but the lack of resume on their high profile titles is just amazingly annoying. So hopefully Sony or someone else will be able to a framework that allows resume to be easily implemented on Java disks.

I've never had a movie take 20 - 30 seconds to load on my PS3's. In any event, I don't think the studios are going to stop using Java at this point. High definition discs and players would have to be much more widely deployed before any amount of complaining will have any bearing on how the discs are authored. Besides, the problems you guys are describing can be solved with firmware updates....it's just a matter of getting the hardware manufacturers to pay attention to your complaints. And the easiest way to do that is to write (not email) their corporate offices.

So don't blame HD DVD for lack of resume and slow speed. When Blu-ray is burdened with the same feature set, it's just as slow and crippled (except for PS3).

That's... kind of what I was thinking. ;)

You know I don't have BD yet, only HD DVD. I would not mind going neutral, but all this goofy stuff with the java scares me. Some guy just posted about Life of Brian, saying it takes 2 1/2 mins to get the thing loaded.

It's unaceptable.

I'm not going to buy a freaking PS3 either. I want a stand alone. Call me crazy.

With the coming of Profile 1.1 and Profile 2.0 we will see more interactivity, functionality and even web enabled features. So I think we have to look forward to more java being added not less

I want Resume on all BD's. Why can't all the junk that interferes with basic navigation be subjacated to a second disc? I don't want my discs "supersized" with junk. I want a lean, organic disc.... ;)

If we're on about navigation, when I hit Menu, I want to go to the menu, and not get a circle with slash as the previews rage on. My elderly mom calls me up when discs I loan her do this. She thinks the player is broken or she's messed up the remote....so, she calls the Rachael Hotline!

I'm pro navigation....no amnesty for Java.

your all right but understand hdm players have to do more then play movies
and dvd type special features.
i think both tosh and sony knew that right from conception.
its just a matter of a new format has to be better then the last format

but how are long loads and non-letting one quickly resume back to where they had to leave off better?
seriously i bet more people use those features than any interactivity.
do most people care about some java animated menu or do they care about conviently being able to wactually watch stuff?
they thoguht wrong if they thought all this java stuff is what would help sell hi-def over standard. picture quality is the only thing that would. nobody will pay more for discs and players just for java and if it annoys them it may even hurt.

I do agree with the OP. It is the hardware and not the software. I believe as time goes on, the hardware will only get better and this will be less of an issue. Adding profile 1.1 or 2.0 will not make the discs any slower in my opinion.

Of course Java is more resource intensive. That is why the PS3 handles it like a charm because it is basically a Computer. Being a java programmer i've seen how expensive it can be and i've worked with mobile profiles all the way up to Enterprise applications. Of course alot of it also has to do with who wrote the code.

Whats funny is my java enabled bluray movies load faster on my ps3 than the most basic hddvd on my A3. That is what sucks!

I do agree with the OP. It is the hardware and not the software. I believe as time goes on, the hardware will only get better and this will be less of an issue. Adding profile 1.1 or 2.0 will not make the discs any slower in my opinion.

Of course Java is more resource intensive. That is why the PS3 handles it like a charm because it is basically a Computer. Being a java programmer i've seen how expensive it can be and i've worked with mobile profiles all the way up to Enterprise applications. Of course alot of it also has to do with who wrote the code.

Whats funny is my java enabled bluray movies load faster on my ps3 than the most basic hddvd on my A3. That is what sucks!

to be honest they don't load that slowly on my PC at all but i do feel for those with external players. but it still doesn't solve the lack of resume and the forced wading through crap and pre-menus for a minute until you finally get the chance to start searching for where you left off. bah.

I recently posted an open letter (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12367318#post12367318) to the Blu-ray studios pleading with them for judicious use of Java on their BD titles. Basically, don’t use Java unless you have to use Java. This week has provided us two sterling examples of exactly what I don’t want to see in the future. Both Mr. & Mrs. Smith and Castaway were created using advanced Java authoring and neither title uses the Java for anything much beyond cutesy, unnecessary menu animations. While Castaway at the very least contains personal scene selections (a wholly unnecessary feature if they would have just left the resume functional), M&MS contains nothing of the sort. Therefore, in exchange for having the scene selection chapters move instead remaining stationary, all we had to give up was quicker load times every time you start the disc and the ability to resume the film if you stop the disc. Seems fair, doesn’t it? Oh, and never mind that the animated scene selection menu actually takes more work than the still one (they’ve taken away the ability to jump directly to chapters 15-20 for example and now you have to individually scroll through each chapter).

Fox has taken away bits of basic, useful functionality simply to be clever for clever’s sake. I know it’s too soon for recent complaints to make their way into the production cycle, but the sooner people start to realize that they’re actually being short-changed simply so the studio can show off (and maybe even complain about it), the sooner the studios will hopefully begin to actually show some consideration for the consumer.

Thanks for your insight. I too feel the same. Use Java judiciously and not for the heck of using it. I think HD DVD authoring is quite easier as it employs easier programming languages like XML, XHTML etc which is quite easier to implement and faster than Java.

Brad, are you using a STB player? what kind?

Thanks for your insight. I too feel the same. Use Java judiciously and not for the heck of using it. I think HD DVD authoring is quite easier as it employs easier programming languages like XML, XHTML etc which is quite easier to implement and faster than Java.

Exactly, these discs (and Superbad to a lessor extent) represent the studios and the authoring houses trying to do things to impress each other and not because they are useful or wanted by the end users! Do you know my single favorite thing about BD (aside from the obvious upgrade in video/audio quality)? It's the ability to bring the menu up over the film. It doesn't have to animate or jump around. It doesn't have to beep, burp, or fart (have you seen the Waiting... Blu-ray?). It just comes up over the film and allows you to navigate the disc without having to leave the film. It's one of the things I love about the new formats and I always get a bit deflated when I have to go back to standard DVD and remember they have a menu menu and a movie and there's no merging of the two. It seems that in their race to reinvent the wheel, they forget that round is as good as it gets.

Brad, are you using a STB player? what kind?
I'm using the Panasonic BD30, which as you know is the quickest stand-alone out there. I'm not going back to the PS3, so I have to hope that the studios eventually realize that a disc you have to wait for better be worth waiting for. But I fear a summer 2008 where the majority of releases are Java just because the studios have convinced themselves that it won't be Blu-ray if it uses basic authoring.

At first I would like to appreciate the posters in AVS for being mature enough to the best possible extent and not fighting and cribbing like a kid who posts in other famous forums.

May I ask what their alternative is? It's cheaper for a studio to author in one format instead of many. That's why it more than likely makes sense for the Studios to do everything in Java because some of the titles will require it.

I recently posted an open letter (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12367318#post12367318) to the Blu-ray studios pleading with them for judicious use of Java on their BD titles. Basically, don’t use Java unless you have to use Java. This week has provided us two sterling examples of exactly what I don’t want to see in the future. Both Mr. & Mrs. Smith and Castaway were created using advanced Java authoring and neither title uses the Java for anything much beyond cutesy, unnecessary menu animations. While Castaway at the very least contains personal scene selections (a wholly unnecessary feature if they would have just left the resume functional), M&MS contains nothing of the sort. Therefore, in exchange for having the scene selection chapters move instead remaining stationary, all we had to give up was quicker load times every time you start the disc and the ability to resume the film if you stop the disc. Seems fair, doesn’t it? Oh, and never mind that the animated scene selection menu actually takes more work than the still one (they’ve taken away the ability to jump directly to chapters 15-20 for example and now you have to individually scroll through each chapter).

Fox has taken away bits of basic, useful functionality simply to be clever for clever’s sake. I know it’s too soon for recent complaints to make their way into the production cycle, but the sooner people start to realize that they’re actually being short-changed simply so the studio can show off (and maybe even complain about it), the sooner the studios will hopefully begin to actually show some consideration for the consumer.You could set up a non-Java poll or post a request in the Insiders' Thread.

I recently posted an open letter (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12367318#post12367318) to the Blu-ray studios pleading with them for judicious use of Java on their BD titles. Basically, don’t use Java unless you have to use Java. This week has provided us two sterling examples of exactly what I don’t want to see in the future. Both Mr. & Mrs. Smith and Castaway were created using advanced Java authoring and neither title uses the Java for anything much beyond cutesy, unnecessary menu animations. While Castaway at the very least contains personal scene selections (a wholly unnecessary feature if they would have just left the resume functional), M&MS contains nothing of the sort. Therefore, in exchange for having the scene selection chapters move instead remaining stationary, all we had to give up was quicker load times every time you start the disc and the ability to resume the film if you stop the disc. Seems fair, doesn’t it? Oh, and never mind that the animated scene selection menu actually takes more work than the still one (they’ve taken away the ability to jump directly to chapters 15-20 for example and now you have to individually scroll through each chapter).

Fox has taken away bits of basic, useful functionality simply to be clever for clever’s sake. I know it’s too soon for recent complaints to make their way into the production cycle, but the sooner people start to realize that they’re actually being short-changed simply so the studio can show off (and maybe even complain about it), the sooner the studios will hopefully begin to actually show some consideration for the consumer.

Is it really necessary to start another java thread? You should really try and contain it to your original open letter.

I understand your complaints, please understand that HDM is still in its infancy and companies are trying different things to see what works.

And wouldn't this be null and voided if players used faster processors? It's my understanding that the one's they use in current generation players are just too damn slow.

haven't had any problems with long load times on my PS3....

And wouldn't this be null and voided if players used faster processors? It's my understanding that the one's they use in current generation players are just too damn slow.

haven't had any problems with long load times on my PS3....

That's the thing: All these java animations, superfluous cute touches, etc., are being made with the PS3 in mind, which handles them with no problems whatsoever.

But that is hugely unfair to people buying standalone machines that can't begin to approach the speed/processing power of the PS3.

I love Blu-ray, but I would only advise someone buying into it via a PS3, at least until the standalone players go through several more generations and all these kinks are worked out.

everyone that isn't a fan boy gamer knows that Java is a total joke, I hate new releases because they are all going to use java which means slow loads, horrid menu response and best of all, no resume play :( :mad:

the Panny BD30 is super lightning fast with java, but it is still a joke

-Gary

Not trying to hate on java, but this all reminds me of the state of web development about 10-12 years ago. Java (not talking about javascript) was the coolest new thing and people started putting in applets for everything. Buttons on a page, site statistic boxes, photo albums, (extremely) pointless animations, even little java applet forms.

Nobody liked them except the developers who made them (ok I was slightly guilty) and the clients who thought they looked cool; they took forever to load, frequently crashed or froze the browsers of the time.

Fortunately technology evolved, computer and network speeds increased, better ways of animating buttons (if you really really have to) were created, and scripting languages matured. But it was so irritating at the time to have to deal with something that seemed to only exist to provide a "wow" effect at the cost of usability.

There were a few exceptions where Java really was the only way to do something back then, but 99% of the time that was not the case. Hopefully we'll evolve out of this one day too. I run a PS3, where it doesn't hurt too much, but I totally feel the pain for other player owners!

Whats funny is my java enabled bluray movies load faster on my ps3 than the most basic hddvd on my A3. That is what sucks!

You know that HD DVD from day one had advanced menus and functionality that is just being implemented in Blu-ray with Java enhancements. So that most basic HD DVD is equivalent to Java enabled Blu-ray. The fact that these discs take over 2 minutes to load on most latest Blu-ray standalones (excluding PS3) which is even longer than on my 1st generation HD-XA1 is a joke.

Is it really necessary to start another java thread? You should really try and contain it to your original open letter.
Well, I thought it important to highlight the discs where things are going wrong with a very specific thread title that was separate from the general thread. Unless you're a Java programmer, I'm not sure why you'd care. But, alas, there's no need to worry because in a world where thread cleanliness is more important than spotlighting actual problems, the threads have been merged.
May I ask what their alternative is? It's cheaper for a studio to author in one format instead of many. That's why it more than likely makes sense for the Studios to do everything in Java because some of the titles will require it.
Actually, that's not true. It would actually cost them less to do less work in Java because it would require less authoring and less QC time. The same authoring houses can author in both basic and advanced, so there's no additional expense of authoring in both modes. Quite the opposite actually.
You could set up a non-Java poll or post a request in the Insiders' Thread.
I might just do that.
I understand your complaints, please understand that HDM is still in its infancy and companies are trying different things to see what works.
I agree, but I'm trying to make the case early on that advanced authoring for non-advanced features doesn't work.
And wouldn't this be null and voided if players used faster processors? It's my understanding that the one's they use in current generation players are just too damn slow.

haven't had any problems with long load times on my PS3....
While the PS3 certainly improves the load times, it does nothing for the convenience of resume, which is lost on all Java discs on all players. And if anyone wants Blu-ray to be successful beyond what Sony was able to do with the PSP, then they need to start appealing to more than the PS3. While the Playstation might be the foundation that has allowed Blu-ray to survive in the first year and a half, building the format as a home theater format and not just as a gaming addendum is what's needed for long-term success (which ultimately means standalones are going to have to outsell game machines).
Not trying to hate on java, but this all reminds me of the state of web development about 10-12 years ago. Java (not talking about javascript) was the coolest new thing and people started putting in applets for everything. Buttons on a page, site statistic boxes, photo albums, (extremely) pointless animations, even little java applet forms.

Nobody liked them except the developers who made them (ok I was slightly guilty) and the clients who thought they looked cool; they took forever to load, frequently crashed or froze the browsers of the time.
Yes!! Is it any wonder that every time there's a new thread about disc problems or firmware needs, it's usually a Java title that's the problem?

Another title I found to be ridiculous is the new Pirates of the Caribbean disc. After loading the initial Java screens, what do we find on the movie disc? Just a 5 minute blooper reel and nothing else. In fact, they actually made the disc worse than the previous two because they used that image resizing to shrink the animated Jolly Roger that speaks to you during the menus. They took what was one of the cooler aspects of the first two discs (those gorgeous menus, which were total works of art) and relegated it to nothing more than background art so that they could cover the screen with a huge yellow canvas to plaster all the selections. I would understand Java on disc 2, given the supplements, but disc 1 was completely unneeded.

You know that HD DVD from day one had advanced menus and functionality that is just being implemented in Blu-ray with Java enhancements. So that most basic HD DVD is equivalent to Java enabled Blu-ray. The fact that these discs take over 2 minutes to load on most latest Blu-ray standalones (excluding PS3) which is even longer than on my 1st generation HD-XA1 is a joke.

Then why aren't you laughing? All I see is complaining.

And wouldn't this be null and voided if players used faster processors? It's my understanding that the one's they use in current generation players are just too damn slow.

haven't had any problems with long load times on my PS3....

no, once again you can have a coreocto and it wouldn't bring back resume.
the menu speed isn't too bad on my PC at all, but lack of resume is!

Then why aren't you laughing? All I see is complaining.

I'm not complaining. I have a PS3 which loads all my Java discs in well under a minute. I am laughing at all those folks who complained about slow loading times of HD DVD standalones. Now that Blu-ray has the same advanced menus and authoring as HD DVD, those standalone Blu-ray players are just as slow, if not slower than the HD DVD standalones.

All disks should just start with the movie. There should be a button to load any fancy stuff whatever. The start of the movie should be as fast as possible.

I remember when you could insert your laserdisk and have the movie just start. Even if there was some junk on the front you could cruise through it quickly.

The movie is now treated like an Easter egg!

Don't forget that interactive features, both in Blu-Ray's Java and HD DVD's HDi, are very expensive to create!

Here's a quote from Bandai on the cost of authoring interactive features (emphasis added be me):
AnimeOnDVD: The release of Freedom has been touted as a great showcase of what high definition interactivity can accomplish. Bandai Visual has worked closely with Microsoft and their HDi interactive layer. With only one title actively using at the moment, how has such benefits affected planning for future releases and for shows that are currently in progress of being made?

Bandai Visual: By working with Microsoft, we found out various uses of HDi. At the same time, we realized that it was hard to use HDi technology as profitable business. According to Microsoft, we can do 10 or even 20 times more than what we have done with FREEDOM. However, it is hard to put it in use in a creative manner due to the cost. As you know, we had to put a very high price on FREEDOM due to the experiment we did with FREEDOM which was still not that big of a scale. And the customers were not too happy with the price. We will continue to experiment the new technology and strive to balance out the incurring cost and the product price.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:u5xpGCp3-1UJ:www.animeondvd.com/forum/printpost.php%3Ftid/26262/

Of course, Freedom is a niche title, and unlike some studios, Bandai isn't going to lose money in order to push an agenda. But it goes to show that interactive features aren't cheap to create.

I run a PS3. Anyone who wants fast loads and responsiveness from their player should run a PS3. Problem solved.

I run a PS3. Anyone who wants fast loads and responsiveness from their player should run a PS3. Problem solved.

Well, I want a remote I can program into a universal, a visible display where I can see chapter numbers and running times, bitstreaming of all advanced audio codecs, a player whose fan I can't hear in my theater, and a player that can resume a disc even if I shut the player off. With a PS3, that's a lot of problems created just to solve one.

my ps3 is very quiet playing movies. unlike the xbox 360. on some titles like spidey you can bookmark anywhere in the movie.. so you can return to that spot later.

Jacob

my ps3 is very quiet playing movies. unlike the xbox 360. on some titles like spidey you can bookmark anywhere in the movie.. so you can return to that spot later.

Jacob

A) My Panasonic is completely silent compared to me PS3
B) Why would you even bring up the 360? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand?
C) You still have to reload the title to use the bookmark (and does it bring you to a specific point or just the beginning of the bookmarked chapter?)

Just understand that, despite everyone saying it's the best thing to ever happen to electronics, there are some flaws within the PS3 for some people. That's not to say that it isn't a great piece of hardware, but it's not as perfect as everyone wants to make out.

Don't forget that interactive features, both in Blu-Ray's Java and HD DVD's HDi, are very expensive to create!

Here's a quote from Bandai on the cost of authoring interactive features (emphasis added be me):

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:u5xpGCp3-1UJ:www.animeondvd.com/forum/printpost.php%3Ftid/26262/

Of course, Freedom is a niche title, and unlike some studios, Bandai isn't going to lose money in order to push an agenda. But it goes to show that interactive features aren't cheap to create.

so another bad point. i want $18 in BB without a sale not the now $29-$34. i stopped doing any impulse buys and even on amazon it's not cheap. adds up too quickly.

Hi gang,

Short of it: Do a lot, or even most, BR discs use Java these days?

Background: I am completely new to Blu Ray, and use an anamorphic setup. I found out my projector can't vertically stretch 720p content, so until I can pull together the $$ for a new projector, I need an Oppo player. Unfortunately, $500 MSRP for a BDP-83 is out of the question, but the $289 BDP-80 is not. Then I find out it can't vertically stretch Java discs. Is it really common for discs to use Java these days?

Thanks!

Hi gang,

Short of it: Do a lot, or even most, BR discs use Java these days?

Background: I am completely new to Blu Ray, and use an anamorphic setup. I found out my projector can't vertically stretch 720p content, so until I can pull together the $$ for a new projector, I need an Oppo player. Unfortunately, $500 MSRP for a BDP-83 is out of the question, but the $289 BDP-80 is not. Then I find out it can't vertically stretch Java discs. Is it really common for discs to use Java these days?

Thanks!

I think it has become nearly universal. I am seeing bare-bones catalog titles (THE THOMAS CROWN AFFAIR and THE RELIC) which have java even if they don't do anything with it.

-Bill

I think it has become nearly universal. I am seeing bare-bones catalog titles (THE THOMAS CROWN AFFAIR and THE RELIC) which have java even if they don't do anything with it.

-Bill

D'oh!! :mad:

Background: I am completely new to Blu Ray, and use an anamorphic setup. I found out my projector can't vertically stretch 720p content, so until I can pull together the $$ for a new projector, I need an Oppo player. Unfortunately, $500 MSRP for a BDP-83 is out of the question, but the $289 BDP-80 is not. Then I find out it can't vertically stretch Java discs. Is it really common for discs to use Java these days?

I might be confusing what you are getting at but there is no anamorphic any thing in Blu-ray. Are you referring to a scope set up instead?

My recollection is that 720 is not part of the spec at all though your player may out put in 720.

For the life of me I can't imagine what BDJ would have to do with being able to stretch or not.

Just give me 24bit lossless audio and max out the video bit rate and you can chunk all the fluff in the trash can.;)

Yup... if there are any extras, put them on another disc too.

"Avatar" only looked as good as it did because they filled the disc up with just the main feature's video and audio. Granted, if a film is longer than that then it should be split to two discs anyway.

I might be confusing what you are getting at but there is no anamorphic any thing in Blu-ray. Are you referring to a scope set up instead?

My recollection is that 720 is not part of the spec at all though your player may out put in 720.

For the life of me I can't imagine what BDJ would have to do with being able to stretch or not.

It seems that the Oppo BDP-80 cannot do CIH scaling on BD-J titles since the scaling is done onboard the decoder and is limited by its featureset and programmability.

It seems that the Oppo BDP-80 cannot do CIH scaling on BD-J titles since the scaling is done onboard the decoder and is limited by its featureset and programmability.

I think the Oppo 83 does not have that limitation, as I seem to recall.

absolutely hate the java--have a bd35 and bd60 both take ages to get into some movies with java loading---hate it hate it :mad:

It seems that the Oppo BDP-80 cannot do CIH scaling on BD-J titles since the scaling is done onboard the decoder and is limited by its feature set and programmability.

This is probably the wrong place for this. But isn't the decoder controlled by the OS of the player rather than the BD-J on the disk? If not then you couldn't stretch any thing with out BD-J. This just sounds like crappy firmware. Why hasn't Oppo shipped an upgraded one. People talk like they walk on water. This seems like a pretty serious flaw.

Java discs do suck bad.

Dark Knight takes about 20 seconds to load, then another screen loads for about 40 seconds, really annoying.

This is probably the wrong place for this. But isn't the decoder controlled by the OS of the player rather than the BD-J on the disk? If not then you couldn't stretch any thing with out BD-J. This just sounds like crappy firmware. Why hasn't Oppo shipped an upgraded one. People talk like they walk on water. This seems like a pretty serious flaw.

Apparently there are tricks you can do with a two chip solution (the BDP-83) that you cannot do with a one chip solution (the BDP-80).

If OPPO could they would. It's not because they hate you.

-Bill

Terminator 2: Skynet is clearly the worst and longest loading BD I have ever put in my drive. It's probably Java as well.

It should die. Give me my movie once I insert the disc. Please. Leave the artwork out.

I'm not going to buy a freaking PS3 either. I want a stand alone. Call me crazy.

You're crazy ;)

But seriously.. I can only violently agree with the cries of "Down with load times".

I have quite a few DVDs too though that are bad offenders without Java.. Some don't even play via the "Play" menu button - you have to play via scene selections.

Some come with forced trailers.. After screaming "LET ME PLAY THE MOVIE!" for 10 minutes I was forced to rip a movie the other day so I could watch it.

It's amazing when you see some company do the right thing - (Okay it almost never happens) I have 2 DVDs (out of ~600) that just play the movie when you insert them.. and some of my early BDs do - presumably because studios hadn't mastered all the menu/Java bollocks.

I'm no fan of Java load times either. I recall a few months back that I read something about a particular studio (don't remember which one, sorry) working on running Java in the background as opposed to start-up. It seems that most people don't care about the BD Live stuff and have no use for it. I see no point in the studio's continued use of this as all it does is increase load times for those of us who have stand alones. I prefer the best quality A/V presentation over any superflous content. I do appreciate good quality extras but don't think it's necessary to utilize the the methods that are currently being used. Just put them on a second disc. The studio's need to put some time and effort into finding a better solution to make Java less invasive.

Chris

Are you trying to say you didn't buy your Blu-ray player to show 4x3 320 res downloaded commercials on your HT? I am sure the studios have extensive research to say that is exactly what you want. You must be wrong. :)

While I agree that outside of the picture quality and the sound quality the user experience has been a major step backwards from DVD. The fact is that the way the spec is written you either have a disk that is so stripped down that it is basically the movie file on a disk or you get a lot of overhead from BD-J. There is no real middle ground possible with the current spec. Either we wait for a new spec which will likely be worse again as they never learn and would involve new players. Or you wait for hardware to improve so that you can just out muscle BD-J at a price that consumers will pay.

I might be confusing what you are getting at but there is no anamorphic any thing in Blu-ray. Are you referring to a scope set up instead?

My recollection is that 720 is not part of the spec at all though your player may out put in 720.

For the life of me I can't imagine what BDJ would have to do with being able to stretch or not.
Yes, 720p50 and 720p60 are part of the Blu-ray spec. I think even 720p24 is too.

While I agree that outside of the picture quality and the sound quality the user experience has been a major step backwards from DVD. The fact is that the way the spec is written you either have a disk that is so stripped down that it is basically the movie file on a disk or you get a lot of overhead from BD-J. There is no real middle ground possible with the current spec.
You can have extras like special features ('making of' etc), commentaries etc. on Blu-ray without BD-J, just like you can with DVD.