it is something i just thought about.

the word standalone player. it makes no sence at all to me.

why on earth do we name hd-dvd players, bluray players with no gaming possibility standalone players?

ps3, xbox360, hd-dvd players, bluray players. they are no standalone players or consoles.

they are multi media players. so why do all the magazines etc use the word standalone players? or consoles?

who came up with the word standalone players? how did we became all mass hypnotized and use a word for a player that is completely wrong.

it is like we call an ant a fish or an apple an orange.

think about it. standalone player. a hd-dvd player or bluray player is not standing alone. what does standalone refer to?

so why do we use it?

why are we not using the word multi media players? because to me, that is what hd-dvd players, bluray players, ps3 and xbox360 are.

the only difference is that the xbox360 and ps3 are multi media players capable of playing games.

like dvd players are able to play xvid or dvix or mp3, vcd etc.

so why use it? who came up with it? food for the mind.

I don't know. It just happened, like people referring to BDs as "Blu-rays" or certain devices as "Set-Top Boxes" (have fun balancing one of those on top of a flat panel TV.) :)

so why use it? food for the mind.

With the advent of multi-purpose devices it is the cleanest way to identify the dedicated devices from the multi-purpose. While the multi-purpose units can offer significant value the private usage of them can vary substantially from what the manufacturer desired. In this case if a person invests in a BD player it is substantially more significant to the HDM format than if a 12 year old kid gets a PS3 for Christmas. Without designating them differently you are erroneously giving the multi-use device credit for everything it can do rather than everything it does.

I had to buy a stand-alone clock because my wife couldn't set the one on the multi-purpose video tape machine.

I don't see a lot of TV/DVD/VCR combo units used in home theaters.

How about OMPO . . .

Optical Movie Player Only

Well - that doesn't work - could be an LD player also.;)

I didn't buy a stand-alone player because I didn't want it to be lonely.

How about OMPO . . .

Optical Movie Player Only

Well - that doesn't work - could be an LD player also.;)

OMHDPO? :D

Coolhand,

nice explanation, but flawed. that still explains nothing at all about standlone player name. and besides that the hd-dvd player and bluray players are multi media players. people could very well use them all for dvd upscaling purpose only.

what i simply mean to say is. consoles, media players have evolved. you can not seperate standalone player from other media players like ps3,xbox360 anymore. they should all fall into the number multi media players. or if someone has a better name for it. i like to know it as well.

but saying a hd-dvd player and bluray player are standalone players, for me it doesnt make much sence. there should be a better name for it. if someone knows it. let it be known.

It is pretty funny how some of the names for these things get their start and continue on long after the name would make any sense.

I just wish people wouldn't get so worked up about it. If I hear one more person claim the 360 add-on is not a "standalone," I think I'm going to hurl. I've got that Godsmack song stuck in my head now. Instead of Sully, I imagine fanboys screaming the chorus.

My interpretation of 'stand alone' is that the device in question must make its value proposition to the consumer based on its ability to play discs (alone). It has no other functionality.

As badly as you want there to be no difference between the Xbox360 or PS3 and stand alone disc players, it would appear that the market and manufacturers don't agree with you. Convergence (sp?) takes a while, and even then it doesn't always replace the previous two devices. Personally, I would never buy a Xbox360 or PS3 to watch HD movies. Why, because I don't play games and the added cost and complexity (the more complex things are, the more likely they are to break) don't provide me value. Also, merged devices seldom do a specific task as well as a dedicated device.

It is pretty funny how some of the names for these things get their start and continue on long after the name would make any sense.

I just wish people wouldn't get so worked up about it. If I hear one more person claim the 360 add-on is not a "standalone," I think I'm going to hurl. I've got that Godsmack song stuck in my head now. Instead of Sully, I imagine fanboys screaming the chorus.

The 360 AO probably meets the definition better than anything else.

Lee, the players play more than just movies, CDs and MP3s to name 2, so OMPO would be just as bad as stand alone.

OK . . another one . . .

SUMP

Single Use Movie Player

:D

OK . . another one . . .

SUMP

Single Use Movie Player

:D

Wasn't that Divx? :eek:

Wasn't that Divx? :eek:

Not single "format" - single use.:p Can only be used to play movies . . doesn't record - can't play games on it - just movies.

Not single "format" - single use.:p Can only be used to play movies . . doesn't record - can't play games on it - just movies.

That's absolutely the meaning of it.

Standalone players stand "alone" in their use. They aren't combined with any other function at all.

Given that 360s and PS3s have a plethora of other possible uses, it is important for marketing purposes to separate them from dedicated players so studios can see direct support for a format.

When a person purchases a standalone HD DVD or Blu-ray player or the 360 add on, it is clear they intend to purchase HD DVD or Blu-ray movies. When a person purchases just the core 360 unit or PS3, you pretty much have to assume they are doing so to play games first, with the possibility of also supporting movies.

Then there's the issue of the demographics these two devices serve, but that's a whole other discussion entirely.

What's become obvious is that some studios have made it clear that they value standalone (single use) player sales over multi-use because it serves as a clear indication of direct support for their content on a given format.

So the word "standalone" isn't likely to go away.

PS: No Wiki Description for "Standalone"

But there is one for "Stand-alone:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-alone

And it doesn't even mention movie players:p

From Video Business and TWICE:

SUMP's were up once again 15% while Game Consoles continue to outpace SUMP's by a factor of 6 to 1"

:D

It seems I am in the minority that likes the term standalone. My original mp3 player was not a standalone (my computer), took a long time before I was able to buy a mp3 player, let alone a song in mp3 format. I dont consider my computer in the same category as standalone devices, would you? yet, it can do many things, play dvd's, supports many audio formats, can be a VOD device, and also plays many different games.

i am sorry but with the new interactive content being added to both BD players and HD-DVD you can say these play games also.

I have seen HDM disks announced that will have games on them, and i know java can be used to create games.

So where does that leave the definition ?

add to that some players can be used as a media client also.


the other problem is what to do when a game console is also considered the best HDM player in its format ?

I know many people who bought a PS3 just to play HDM, and i think the PS3 is the number one Player of BDs.

that is the PS3 out sells all other BD players as a HDM player, more people bought a PS3 for HDM only then any other so called stand alone BD player.

Does the old saying "no news is good news" apply to HDM?

If so, we are rocking right now people. Rocking!

dhodory.

it is not what i want. it is that movie studios should look a bit further. they always are the last to catch on and understand.

all i am saying is simple. standalone players make no sence. as people already said there are already discs on hd-dvd and bluray that have games on them as well. so were is the argument about hd-dvd player and bluray players are standalone?

the fact of the matter is. the market , the players , consoles all have evolved. and such so should the market be looked too.

standalone players are dead. multi media players live.

dhodory.

it is not what i want. it is that movie studios should look a bit further. they always are the last to catch on and understand.

all i am saying is simple. standalone players make no sence. as people already said there are already discs on hd-dvd and bluray that have games on them as well. so were is the argument about hd-dvd player and bluray players are standalone?

the fact of the matter is. the market , the players , consoles all have evolved. and such so should the market be looked too.

standalone players are dead. multi media players live.

Standalone players are not dead. While there is the occasional video based game available to be played on an HD DVD or Blu-ray standalone player (Dragon's Lair is the only one that immediately comes to mind) these games aren't prevalent enough to change the central purpose of these devices: to play HDM discs.

Consoles could now be consider multimedia platforms as they can play HDM, stream video and music, download video, music and games in addition to their central purpose of playing games. The problem is because they can do all of this it becomes difficult to measure just how much use they are getting for any one of these multiple uses.

There is a need for categorization.

I think is not so different from classifying automobiles as pick-up trucks or sedans. Both haul around people and cargo, but most people know when they go shopping whether they want a pick-up truck or a sedan. The "stand-alone" models are those that are optimized for playing movies. They have AV remotes rather than game controllers.

i am sorry but with the new interactive content being added to both BD players and HD-DVD you can say these play games also.

I have seen HDM disks announced that will have games on them, and i know java can be used to create games.

that is the PS3 out sells all other BD players as a HDM player, more people bought a PS3 for HDM only then any other so called stand alone BD player.

So my refrigerator can be classed as a games console, because it has a web browser so I can play flash games? :eek::rolleyes:

And the main reasons that the PS3 is the best selling BD player has more to do with its price (for a long time it was about the cheapest available), and the most future compatible (with version 1.1 and 2.0 spec compatibility).
Where are your numbers that prove "more people bought a PS3 for HDM than any other so called stand alone BD player" because i'm not sure even Sony has those numbers available?

Does it actually matter what word is used to define something, as long as everyone uses that word to mean the same thing?

i am sorry but with the new interactive content being added to both BD players and HD-DVD you can say these play games also.

I have seen HDM disks announced that will have games on them, and i know java can be used to create games.

So where does that leave the definition ?

add to that some players can be used as a media client also.


the other problem is what to do when a game console is also considered the best HDM player in its format ?

I know many people who bought a PS3 just to play HDM, and i think the PS3 is the number one Player of BDs.

that is the PS3 out sells all other BD players as a HDM player, more people bought a PS3 for HDM only then any other so called stand alone BD player.


If that's truly the case, then I feel sorry for Blu-ray hardware producing CEs. If the PS3 continues to be the best priced Blu-ray solution, they have little chance at ever moving good numbers of standalones.

I guess that why my local Best Buy continues to have mountains of unsold Blu-ray standalone players.

Also, the fact that the PS3 is outselling it's standalone playing brethen doesn't eliminate the necessity for the classification standalone, or make the PS3 a standalone itself.

It simply makes the PS3 console the preferred choice for Blu-ray playback and standalone Blu-ray players low selling products.

We shouldn't change terms to make outlooks appear prettier on either side of the aisle. That's spin. :D

standalone players are dead. multi media players live.

You really couldn't be more wrong if you'd tried.

Quite Simply - the best replacement for Standalone Players (not that it really needs replacing...) is "Dedicated Players"

Dedicated Players covers anything and everything that is designed for the sole purpose of playing the movies - as opposed to a game machine that also plays movies.

So for me, "Dedicated Players" seems to be the perfect description. Or "DP", or "DHDP", or "DHDMP" :D

standalone players are dead. multi media players live.Wrong...

Sure, it would be a nice way to justify the PS3... but Wrong...

Honestly, it seems to me that "standalone" only became a buzz word as a vehicle for format war spin. No one really cared whether people played DVDs on computers, a PS2, or a "standalone" player, but certain formats that were losing both hardware and software sales had to create a catageory to emphasize an apparent strength (an an excuse to excise the most common BD playback device when it was convenient...but only when it was numerically convenent).

There is no other real explanation, but I imagine an unlimited number of rationalizations...

The term "Standalone Player" means a dedicated HD DVD or Blu-ray player that only plays movies. Specifically, it excludes players that also have other primary uses, like video games.

Honestly, it seems to me that "standalone" only became a buzz word as a vehicle for format war spin. No one really cared whether people played DVDs on computers, a PS2, or a "standalone" player, but certain formats that were losing both hardware and software sales had to create a catageory to emphasize an apparent strength (an an excuse to excise the most common BD playback device when it was convenient...but only when it was numerically convenent).

There is no other real explanation, but I imagine an unlimited number of rationalizations...

When DVD came out - all you had were players. That is how you watched a movie in 1997.

ive always thought that 'standalone' referred to dedicated dvd recorders as opposed to computer dvd 'burners'.:eek:

The term "Standalone Player" means a dedicated HD DVD or Blu-ray player that only plays movies. Specifically, it excludes players that also have other primary uses, like video games.

So if you mostly watch TV on disk (as opoosed to movie content) it's not a stand alone? What if your 5 year old daughter uses the machine the most and plays Disney Java games on a BD player? Is the Pioneer not a standalone becauseit includes multimedia and networking features?

Let's make an analogy; obviously Apple cares about how many "standalone" mp3 players they sell (iPods) because they make money from each one. But when trying to convince a lable to release over iTunes, do you think they brag about how many people listen to their songs on iPods vs. iTunes on their computers? Of course not, they promote how many songs they sell, period.

As digital technologies converge, the term "standalone" means less and less, especially to the content providers. The fact that ther term is bandied about here so much has more to do with spin then any usefulness.

Coolhand,

nice explanation, but flawed. that still explains nothing at all about standlone player name. and besides that the hd-dvd player and bluray players are multi media players. people could very well use them all for dvd upscaling purpose only.

what i simply mean to say is. consoles, media players have evolved. you can not seperate standalone player from other media players like ps3,xbox360 anymore. they should all fall into the number multi media players. or if someone has a better name for it. i like to know it as well.

but saying a hd-dvd player and bluray player are standalone players, for me it doesnt make much sence. there should be a better name for it. if someone knows it. let it be known.

IMHO there is nothing to challenge, the term standalone make perfect sense!! Because if you think about it, is a standalone player any less multimedia then say a PS3?? Yet they are different and not the same.

All it really is IMHO, are people getting too lazy to type the entire name, (same as acronyms) which should be "standalone multimedia player", wheras a PS3 should be call a "multifunction multimedia player".

So if you mostly watch TV on disk (as opoosed to movie content) it's not a stand alone? What if your 5 year old daughter uses the machine the most and plays Disney Java games on a BD player? Is the Pioneer not a standalone becauseit includes multimedia and networking features?

Let's make an analogy; obviously Apple cares about how many "standalone" mp3 players they sell (iPods) because they make money from each one. But when trying to convince a lable to release over iTunes, do you think they brag about how many people listen to their songs on iPods vs. iTunes on their computers? Of course not, they promote how many songs they sell, period.

As digital technologies converge, the term "standalone" means less and less, especially to the content providers. The fact that ther term is bandied about here so much has more to do with spin then any usefulness.

It's very simple - really - what is going into the machine? What can go into the machine?

To start splitting hairs does nothing for the discussion IMO. As long as the primary function of a player is to be to watch what you bought - it's an SAL.

These games everyone is trying to muck up the water with . . . you use a controller? Or the remote control that came with the player?

The fact that you can now access the internet - ONLY for the site that the movie wants you to. You can't come to AVS and start posting. These are features - nothing more.

If you are having trouble with this then the only reason is to try to seperate the AO from the players with HD DVD - and that doesn't make sense because it too has a single function.

What - a 27" TV with a built in DVD player is really a DVD player with a huge front display?:rolleyes:

Well there is a huge difference to date in the behavior patterns of those that own a multi purpose device like a gaming console or a laptop computer and those that buy a single purpose device that the only reason to buy it is to watch movies on it.

NPD and the industry refer to the standalone players as "set top" units to differentiate them from the gaming consoles. They try to plug different types of hardware into seperate categories, so they only count them once.

"Standalone" players IIRC was used way back in the launch of the DVD time period to seperate it out from the PS2, which also had a DVD drive.

A device with one primary use of playing movies on it, has a higher chance of being used by the consumer who bought it for that function (like 100%) and has a much higher chance that they consumer will buy movie titles to play on it.

A multi-function device , like a laptop computer , or such a gaming console in general, with a HD DVD or Blu-ray drive in it, and the PS3 in particular, as the only one now in that category (unless the Xbox 360 gets a HD DVD drive), is a different animal in that playing movies on is is not the primary intended use by the person that bought the device.

Included hardware drives in laptop computers are similar to the PS3 as the drive may be included, even if the consumer didn't have the intention of using it as a movie player.

Like it or not, convergence in multi function devies as mullti media hubs ain't here yet.

Even both they are all possible hardware sockets for consumers to plug software into, the PS3 has a mix of consumers who bought it with different intentions of usage.

Historically, its very very hard to get consumers to change behavior after purchase as Sony is trying to do.

Because of the attach rate differences and other behavior differences it makes sense to seperate out the gaming consoles from the set top boxes.

I think people think standalone players makes more sense as a term that the industry standard of "set top" boxes.

I personally have no problem in using the terms "set top" or "standalone units" as for those units like the majority of HD DVD or Blu-ray players.

I then would add in the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on units to that group to arrive a a "dedicated players" group. I would also possibly add in seperate post purchase HD DVD or Blu-ray drives sold to HTPCs.

Then I would have the category of HD DVD or Blu-ray "capable" devices. here I would add in the PS3 and any future Xbox SKU with a built in HD DVD player or Toshiba or HP or any other laptops or computers with a built in HD DVD or Blu-ray drive.

But for the moment we have a few HDM capable laptops and PCs, a bunch of Xbox 360 add ons, a lot of HD DVD and Blu-ray set top devices and a ton of PS3s.

Like it or not , most of the PS3s were not bought with the intention of primarily playing movies on them, when all of the set top units were.

I see no problem with the majority of people using the term standalone player instead of set top box to refer to that kind of hardware.

I think "standalone player" just got accepted as a term, in place of the term "set top" box because its more intuitive.

There was, and still is, a need to differentiate hardware players bought with the sole intention of playing movies from the PS3, with just had a Blu-ray drive included in it, whether or not the consumer ever intended (or knew or cared about) of its potential for playing movies on it.

If you use the term "dedicated player" , IMHO you should include the HD DVD add on drives of the Xbox 360, but like the HD DVD PRG just did, make sure you expressly state if they are included in the total , to avoid confusion.

You just can't say "dedicated player", without that clarification of including the Xbox 360AOs or not, or you can be like the TWICE reporter and assume they just meant set top boxes.

Dedicated players may or not mean you add in the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on drive, which you can't ignore, because its sold 200,000 plus units and the Xbox 360 gaming console is selling better than the PS3.

So unless you have a better term, "standalone players " suits me just fine.

Honestly, it seems to me that "standalone" only became a buzz word as a vehicle for format war spin. Honestly, it seems to me that that's incorrect. Both "standalone" and "dedicated" are regularly used in the press.

If you are having trouble with this then the only reason is to try to seperate the AO from the players with HD DVD - and that doesn't make sense because it too has a single function.

Lol, a paperweight. Unless it's plugged into a gaming console... You misunderstand my point; I don't care how you catagorize the 360 AO, I simply think the distinction itself has become less useful, and that it has served in HDM largely as a way to prune the numbers to your liking (on both sides to some extent).

What - a 27" TV with a built in DVD player is really a DVD player with a huge front display?:rolleyes:

Actually, that's exactly my point; is a TV/DVD combo a standalone? Some new category? Does it even matter? What the studios care about is whether you buy DVDs to play in it.

Honestly, it seems to me that that's incorrect. Both "standalone" and "dedicated" are regularly used in the press.

Really? Outside of press-release driven articles (e.g. "Sony claims BD standalones catch up to HD DVD in August" or "HD DVD leads in standalone market penetration") where do you see it? Rarely do I see WSJ breakdowns on how standalone vs PC adoption is responsible for the decline in DVD revenue growth. It's usually a discussion on sales volume, manufaturing costs, and marketing expense.

I've been using "standalone" long before the HD formats started. In gamer forums, it's been used for years to separate consoles from regular DVD or CD players.

Actually, that's exactly my point; is a TV/DVD combo a standalone? Some new category? Does it even matter? What the studios care about is whether you buy DVDs to play in it.

No, it's not a standalone DVD player. It's a TV with a DVD drive built into it. This is not complicated, and IMO I don't see why this is even a point of discussion.

why would anyone CARE? :confused: everyone knows what it means...

whoa... the ps3 has games? ;)

i'd like to see a stat for number of PS3s bought that have only been used to play BD movies. that would be relevant to these discussions...

saying that ps3s are primarily bought to play games is still a big ole assumption these days. with games costing $60 and movies $15-30 it is easy to see people motivated to use the machine as a BD player, multimedia hub, tv internet browser first, and then finally as a game machine.

the idea of a 'ps3 demographic' centered around gaming is a joke as well

When DVD came out - all you had were players. That is how you watched a movie in 1997.

Actually I watched them on my TV played off the DVD drive in my PC through a RealMagic Hollywood card :)

If you look at the CEA numbers (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html) for DVD player sales they track "stand alone" or "dedicated" players. Not game consoles with DVD drives in them, and most certainly not PCs with DVD drives. In fact in the U.S., counting only new PC purchases there were 1/2 as many PC DVD drives sold in 2006 (65m) as DVD players sold in the U.S. since inception (131m).

whoa... the ps3 has games? ;)

i'd like to see a stat for number of PS3s bought that have only been used to play BD movies. that would be relevant to these discussions...

saying that ps3s are primarily bought to play games is still a big ole assumption these days. with games costing $60 and movies $15-30 it is easy to see people motivated to use the machine as a BD player, multimedia hub, tv internet browser first, and then finally as a game machine.

the idea of a 'ps3 demographic' centered around gaming is a joke as well
Good point. The PS3 is a cool little box. I use mine only as a BD player and media hub, and would never consider it a standalone player. It is much more than that.

People still haven't got used to the idea of the home media/entertainment center idea that happens to play games and movies at the same time.

A long long time ago, the idea of an AV receiver was anathema to the hifi enthusiasts as everyone talked about the tube amps and discrete components. Look around today and count how many discrete preamps/tuners/amp setups are still around.

There's still resistance to the idea of the ps3 or xbox360 playing mp3s or downloaded trailers/movies as belonging in a HT. The purist point out correctly that the game machines have fans and are noisy (like projectors! ;) ) and that they are more difficult to place on a rack.

There is another point that the game machines often do not support the audio as well as the dedicated players. This point is debateable, but the lack of analog outputs is real, while the hdmi-audio support is there only in one of the formats, it is still not complete even for that one game machine yet as it still is not spitting out the lossless compressed DTHD or DTS-HDMA tracks to my onkyo 605 (but as far as I know, only the samsung 1400 does that among dedicated HDM players).

The main point that sticks though is that the game machines need more air circulation and can shut down if you close the door on them. In some cases, generating red rings of death when they over heat. This part is true, so the game machines today are still not as good as the fanless dedicated players.

Actually, my main PS3 is mainly a BD player, secondarily, a SDHC memory card photoslideshow (10MPel from my nikon D40X look amazing), occasionally an mp3 player. It's never played any games ever, didn't even register for PSN on that. (the 2nd ps3 though, that is mainly a game machine now, with endless parades of game like GH3 on every weekend, and an occasional movie player).

When a person purchases a standalone HD DVD or Blu-ray player or the 360 add on, it is clear they intend to purchase HD DVD or Blu-ray movies.That isn't quite true. There are definitely people who bought with the plan being to rent and/or borrow (along with playing the free discs). If you said that they intend to play HD DVD or Blu-ray movies I wouldn't argue with that, but there will definitely be dedicated players with an attach rate of exactly zero for high definition discs purchased, but that doesn't mean those people didn't watch some high definition discs. Especially with Netflix, Blockbuster, etc., having such good deals.

--Darin

Lol, a paperweight. Unless it's plugged into a gaming console... You misunderstand my point; I don't care how you catagorize the 360 AO, I simply think the distinction itself has become less useful, and that it has served in HDM largely as a way to prune the numbers to your liking (on both sides to some extent).

And a PS3 is a game console and an NTSC player unless it is attached to an HDTV.

Actually, that's exactly my point; is a TV/DVD combo a standalone? Some new category? Does it even matter? What the studios care about is whether you buy DVDs to play in it.

It seems to matter to you. You are the one questioning the use of the word standalone and what "players" are in that category.

Actually I watched them on my TV played off the DVD drive in my PC through a RealMagic Hollywood card :)

If you look at the CEA numbers (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html) for DVD player sales they track "stand alone" or "dedicated" players. Not game consoles with DVD drives in them, and most certainly not PCs with DVD drives. In fact in the U.S., counting only new PC purchases there were 1/2 as many PC DVD drives sold in 2006 (65m) as DVD players sold in the U.S. since inception (131m).

Notice the date you quoted - 1997. Not 2006.

Good point. The PS3 is a cool little box. I use mine only as a BD player and media hub, and would never consider it a standalone player. It is much more than that.

Exactly - it has a miriad of uses. You can now add an attachment and turn it into a DVR.

So what can you do with an S300 or an A35?

Again, I guess I go back to "find me a multi-purpose (i.e., combined or integrated) C/E device that does a superior job or is preferrable to two task-specific devices". In general consumers prefer simple over complex, and it is a LOT easier to make a single-use device simple than it is to make a multiple purpose device simple. Hell, I've gotten rid of clock radios that have been too cumbersome to set the alarm on (I don't want to have to go through a menu system to change my alarm from 5:15 to 5:30).

Folks who prefer a multi-purpose device (like the PS3), I'm betting, are either: a) young (and the novelty of "doing it all" on one machine hasn't worn off and/or their time is not yet at a premium as it is when you get married, hold down a career, and have 3 kids), b) gamers, or c) cannot afford a single use device - or some combination of those three. Those aren't "knocks" their just descriptive of someone who may prefer a single device. Can I see a day when convergence happens? Possibly, but only when having a single device: saves time and money, increases ease of use, or adds some additional benefit not currently apparent. That time, IMHO, isn't here yet.

As with all things posted, this is just my two cents, YMMV.

It's very simple - really - what is going into the machine? What can go into the machine?

To start splitting hairs does nothing for the discussion IMO. As long as the primary function of a player is to be to watch what you bought - it's an SAL.

These games everyone is trying to muck up the water with . . . you use a controller? Or the remote control that came with the player?

The fact that you can now access the internet - ONLY for the site that the movie wants you to. You can't come to AVS and start posting. These are features - nothing more.

If you are having trouble with this then the only reason is to try to seperate the AO from the players with HD DVD - and that doesn't make sense because it too has a single function.

What - a 27" TV with a built in DVD player is really a DVD player with a huge front display?:rolleyes:

So the HDM players can play:

CD
HD DVD/BD
Divx
MP3
DVD
DVD-A/SACD

So what kind of stand alone player is it? How do we know that they are not being used to upscale DVD with a very low HDM attach rate? Maybe people think that DVDs in an HD DVD/BD player is HDM?

So the HDM players can play:

CD
HD DVD/BD
Divx
MP3
DVD
DVD-A/SACD

So what kind of stand alone player is it? How do we know that they are not being used to upscale DVD with a very low HDM attach rate? Maybe people think that DVDs in an HD DVD/BD player is HDM?

You used the word "PLAY" - thank for for making my point.

All you have shown is that SAL's are multi-format players. PLAYERS. They are NOT interactive as a PC is or a Game Console. As a matter of fact - both require you to do something.

I think one important thing that separates the "standalones" from the other players is related to how you interact with them. There are a number of "conventions" for how you interact with a "DVD player." These includes the set up procedures (if any:-), the remote control, menus, etc. As much as I can appreciate the functional richness of the PS3, others in the house do not have the same comfort level in spite of my efforts to show them how it works. This is one of the main reasons that I am looking for a stand-alone BD or dual format play to play BD discs. I might even keep the PS3 in my rack just for playing photos and ripped AVC/MPEG4 files, but a "standalone" player will better meet my needs for simple BD disc playback.

;) I had to buy a stand-alone microwave because my girlfriend couldn't cook on the multi-purpose stove.

Actually, that's exactly my point; is a TV/DVD combo a standalone?

IMHO that should fall into the multifunction multimedia player. Multifunction because it allows you to either watch TV, or play DVD/CD/MP3 disc. Multimedia because it can play all those formats.

So the HDM players can play:

CD
HD DVD/BD
Divx
MP3
DVD
DVD-A/SACD

So what kind of stand alone player is it? How do we know that they are not being used to upscale DVD with a very low HDM attach rate? Maybe people think that DVDs in an HD DVD/BD player is HDM?

IMHO it should fall under the HD (because an HD player can more or less play all the other formats other than Divx) stanalone multimedia player. Standalone (only refers to it function not what format it can play) because it only plays those formats and nothing else. Multimedia (addresses your questions) because it can play all those formats.

Quite simple really, would you not aggree?? :p

That isn't quite true. There are definitely people who bought with the plan being to rent and/or borrow (along with playing the free discs). If you said that they intend to play HD DVD or Blu-ray movies I wouldn't argue with that, but there will definitely be dedicated players with an attach rate of exactly zero for high definition discs purchased, but that doesn't mean those people didn't watch some high definition discs. Especially with Netflix, Blockbuster, etc., having such good deals.

--Darin Good point especially with HDM prices at $29.99 or above.

But I think a lot of those people may break down and but some HDM when prices are dropping effectively to $14.99 - $19.99 or the same as new DVD pricing.

Plus a lot of new owners will start to buy titles just like they always did for DVD.

Also, if HDM rentals increase, that still is sales to the rental companies for the studios.

Overall, as player and hardware prices fall, the percentage of people renting only instead buying, because thy are afraid of the format war, will probably fall quite a bit.

Good point especially with HDM prices at $29.99 or above.

But I think a lot of those people may break down and but some HDM when prices are dropping effectively to $14.99 - $19.99 or the same as new DVD pricing.

Plus a lot of new owners will start to buy titles just like they always did for DVD.

Also, if HDM rentals increase, that still is sales to the rental companies for the studios.

Overall, as player and hardware prices fall, the percentage of people renting only instead buying, because thy are afraid of the format war, will probably fall quite a bit.

The thing that worries me is if the prices of HDM keep falling to dvd levels then the studios might be less inclined to put effort into remastering the films so they look good in HD.

People want lower prices, but dont forget that studios want profit and higher prices means more profit.

I think how the product is positioned and marketed has as much to do with it as anything. For instance, places like Best Buy will have the "standalone" players going in a section where there will be a sign that says something like "HD movie players" or even "DVD players." Meanwhile, the PS3 will be sold in the video game section.

In addition, all the commercials I've seen for the PS3 have been about the games.

Sure, often a product can do different things (and I don't think you can even buy a home "standalone" CD player nowadays at mass merchants because DVD players have supplanted them), but at some point it has to be marketed with a primary purpose. I've mostly been using my PS3 to play BDs too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to contend its primary purpose isn't to play games.

standalone players are dead. multi media players live.

I think we have a contender for the "least informed statement concerning HT" award (which previously went to "1080i is not true HD")...

the problem is the concept of media center will come to ALL HDM players over time. it is only very high end players at first but like all chip based electronics as the chips get smaller you can cram more functions into them.

as a side note my dish HD DVR just got a download service, i see cable and sat boxes adding multimedia services too.

my TV shows jpgs and some video off of a memory stick. one of the things that kept me from seeing a PS2 as a Real DVD player was it was just BAD at it. what happens when the PS3 is seen as the best BD player?

Sony needs to drop its non PS3 BD players and just put the PS3 guts in a HT style box with a good remote, maybe even add analog out for the few people who still use it.

The thing that worries me is if the prices of HDM keep falling to dvd levels then the studios might be less inclined to put effort into remastering the films so they look good in HD.

People want lower prices, but dont forget that studios want profit and higher prices means more profit.I want to be sure I'm understanding the point of your post.

You seem to be saying that it is not good that HDM prices become more affordable, that HDM should stay expensive, and that HD DVD is going to hurt the quality of HDM releases by forcing prices lower through healthy competition???

You do of course realise that studios produced hundreds of thousands of high quality productions to DVD at DVD prices, right?

Actually I watched them on my TV played off the DVD drive in my PC through a RealMagic Hollywood card :)

If you look at the CEA numbers (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html) for DVD player sales they track "stand alone" or "dedicated" players. Not game consoles with DVD drives in them, and most certainly not PCs with DVD drives. In fact in the U.S., counting only new PC purchases there were 1/2 as many PC DVD drives sold in 2006 (65m) as DVD players sold in the U.S. since inception (131m).


Notice the date you quoted - 1997. Not 2006.

I do not understand what you mean.

The term 'standalone player' makes perfect sense.

Somebody buying a PS3 has about a 20% chance of using it for Blu-Ray. Somebody buying a Panasonic Blu-Ray standalone has a 100% chance of using it for Blu-Ray.

Next question.

The thing that worries me is if the prices of HDM keep falling to dvd levels then the studios might be less inclined to put effort into remastering the films so they look good in HD.

People want lower prices, but dont forget that studios want profit and higher prices means more profit.
But for older DVD releases, even a $9.99 or $14.99 HD DVD or Blu-ray sales is found money for the studio and retailers as most DVD sales drop to almost nothing within 180 days of a titles release.

The one thing with HD DVD and Blu-ray titles even though sales are tiny generally compared to DVD, a lot of the titles have had a much longer sales tail compared to a DVD release.

They are small but steady tales for a lot of the HD DVD titles now and that should increase as the new owners start buying discs. Blu-ray has been closer to DVD sales fall offs to date , but Blu-ray sales should follow the same pattern as more dedicated players are sold.

As the installed bases grow, remember for a new owner, every title is new. :D

The term 'standalone player' makes perfect sense.

Somebody buying a PS3 has about a 20% chance of using it for Blu-Ray. Somebody buying a Panasonic Blu-Ray standalone has a 100% chance of using it for Blu-Ray.

Next question.

This!

Though I don't understand why the attach rate is so low (i'm not disputing it). I figure every ps3 will see at least one BD movie run through it; if not a free one that comes with it the occasional rental. I guess the good news for Sony is the potential for HDM sales, if they can only convince 6 million PS3 owners to get on with watching movies.

It's only a term.

How many people still use a cloakroom for hanging up their cloaks?

My biggest bugbear is 'day and date release'.

So the SD version comes out on the 4th if December 2007 (date), which is a Tuesday (day).

So what are we saying with 'day and date'? That the HD DVD version comes out on the 4th of December 2007 and that can be a different day? Like a Wednesday?

Tautological statement.

Steve W

I think "standalone player" just got accepted as a term, in place of the term "set top" box because its more intuitive.

There was, and still is, a need to differentiate hardware players bought with the sole intention of playing movies from the PS3, with just had a Blu-ray drive included in it, whether or not the consumer ever intended (or knew or cared about) of its potential for playing movies on it.

If you use the term "dedicated player" , IMHO you should include the HD DVD add on drives of the Xbox 360, but like the HD DVD PRG just did, make sure you expressly state if they are included in the total , to avoid confusion.

You just can't say "dedicated player", without that clarification of including the Xbox 360AOs or not, or you can be like the TWICE reporter and assume they just meant set top boxes.

Dedicated players may or not mean you add in the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on drive, which you can't ignore, because its sold 200,000 plus units and the Xbox 360 gaming console is selling better than the PS3.

So unless you have a better term, "standalone players " suits me just fine.

Technology does funny things to names. For most of history, there was only the "guitar."

Now, with electricity and the electric guitar, a regular, standard guitar needs to be differentiated by putting the word "acoustic" in front of it!

Acoustic guitar/electric guitar.

This!

Though I don't understand why the attach rate is so low (i'm not disputing it). I figure every ps3 will see at least one BD movie run through it; if not a free one that comes with it the occasional rental. I guess the good news for Sony is the potential for HDM sales, if they can only convince 6 million PS3 owners to get on with watching movies.

Hundreds of thousands of PS3 owners don't even have HDTV's. Of thosew who do have HDTV, many have no interest in Blu-Ray whatsoever. The majority of PS3 owners bought it to play games, not watch movies.

All PS3's should be shipped with at least 1 BD movie; that will at least take care of the 'PS3 owner who doesn't know it is a BD player' group, which according to research, is still quite large.

How many people still use a cloakroom for hanging up their cloaks?

Can I phone a fiend?

Can I phone a fiend?

Depends. Are you going to use an iPhone or a standalone unit?

Hundreds of thousands of PS3 owners don't even have HDTV's. Of thosew who do have HDTV, many have no interest in Blu-Ray whatsoever. The majority of PS3 owners bought it to play games, not watch movies.

All PS3's should be shipped with at least 1 BD movie; that will at least take care of the 'PS3 owner who doesn't know it is a BD player' group, which according to research, is still quite large.


This is just strange to my experience. I know quite a few folks who bought the PS3 primarily as a BD movie player or 50/50 device; typically to compliment their big screen purchase. The game selection for the PS3 was so limited for so long that I figured the draw must have been the movies. Have there been statistics collected around this?

It's only a term.

How many people still use a cloakroom for hanging up their cloaks?

My biggest bugbear is 'day and date release'.

So the SD version comes out on the 4th if December 2007 (date), which is a Tuesday (day).

So what are we saying with 'day and date'? That the HD DVD version comes out on the 4th of December 2007 and that can be a different day? Like a Wednesday?

Tautological statement.

Steve W I think that term came into the home video industry as to mean the first "day and date" a movie was going to be available on home video as to differentiate it from a title that was being re-released or was already available. Way back when HBO got them first.

Evolved into meaning the new movies being released every Tuesday.

I guess it stuck for lack of a better term.....

The 360 add-on is clearly not stand-alone because it is an add-on that needs a 360 to play it. Together the combo is faster than anything else with the HDDVD logo on the front... but it brings with it some baggage: loud fan noise, no ability for high resolution lossless audio, etc. 360 is also a gaming multi-media machine that's limited in scope but does what it does pretty well.

The PS3 is fully standalone (and better than most, if not all) Blu-ray player's anyways. It likely costs more than any of them without a prestige name plate and is only sold cheaper because it was subsidized (though probably not as much as everyone thinks). It's also a gaming multimedia machine and closer to a full blown HTPC from the Internet browser and less restricted in scope than the 360.

Dedicated player doesn't work, either. The add-on is most definitely dedicated. The 360 main unit and PS3 can be dedicated movie boxes, as well, depending on the intent of the owner.

Multimedia player best describes the PS3 since it can take multiple media (SD/MMC, Memory Stick, CD, DVD, BD, streaming, Internet, etc) with the 360 close behind it followed by some of the new player only devices ("POD" got a trademark on it? jk :o :eek: ;)