I was wondering after the poor showing of Casablanca,Forbidden Planet, Star Trek and others is my dream of seeing thousands of great catalog titles on HDM dead in the water. I feared the demographics early on when I saw that films like Stealth, which stunk worse than my feces after thanksgiving ,did well among the HDM buying public. Additionally ,the statistics that seventy percent of all commercial theater tickets are sold to teen girls added fuel to the fire.

This would be a major bummer for me since I don't see enough recent releases to keep me happy in my theater. I guess I could hope that gradually things change to allow better sales of the great older films but it doesn't look good ,at least in the near term.

Art

What do you expect when the most popular HDM machine is a game machine? People get excited for big budget action movies with lots of explosions, yet little plot and character development and run away from dramas and comedies. Thems the breaks.

If I were you, I would just enjoy Casablanca, Inside Man, Elizabeth and Coming to America while others complain about no lossless audio on the latest loud summer blockbuster.

Catalog is dead. It's been dead for several years.

Catalog is dead. It's been dead for several years.

Well. I actually understand that since so many have been sold but I had hoped that many of them would appear on HDM none the less.

Art

With the HDM formats trying to secure positions, I would expect the catalog titles to take their sweet time.

Its not like the classics sold piss poor on blu-ray, they sold very poorly on hd-dvd as well. So you cannot blame the PS3, blame people who want stuff that blows up to show off their purchase and show to others that the $$$ was worth it.

Some of my favorite films are the old classics....I'm with you on this Art.....It seems though that so many people want style over substance and sometimes you can actually have both....A lot of great classic titles out there which need a clean up and could be lovingly restored and released if only the film companies cared.

Who knows maybe they do care and maybe it'll happen.

I, too, would like to see more catalog titles, but what you observe is just more proof that markets always favor youth. The older one gets, the less interested one becomes in buying "stuff." On the other hand, young people start out with nothing, so the markets always cater to them. That's the cold, hard reality of the world, and older catalog titles simply do not excite young people in general. On the plus side, if we do start seeing more catalog titles coming out, that bodes well for HDM in general.

Doug

When people realize that their DVDs look like cr*p on their 65'' flatscreen, then they will start to replace their catalog titles. Catalogs will always sell, slower than new blockbusters but steadily. I would buy the whole AFI top 200 catalog, and much more, if the offered it.

"Casablanca" and "Robin Hood" were the reasons I bought an HD DVD player. I, too, have been disappointed that so few films from the 30s, 40s and 50s have been released. Although I have both Blu Ray and HD DVD players, I actually purchase very few discs of either kind. That would quickly change if more classic films were brought to high definition media. Sadly, we are in the minority.

I was wondering after the poor showing of Casablanca,Forbidden Planet, Star Trek and others is my dream of seeing thousands of great catalog titles on HDM dead in the water. I feared the demographics early on when I saw that films like Stealth, which stunk worse than my feces after thanksgiving ,did well among the HDM buying public. Additionally ,the statistics that seventy percent of all commercial theater tickets are sold to teen girls added fuel to the fire.

This would be a major bummer for me since I don't see enough recent releases to keep me happy in my theater. I guess I could hope that gradually things change to allow better sales of the great older films but it doesn't look good ,at least in the near term.

Art

Unfortunately, Art I think so. Sales of older titles must be really frustrating for the studios. The opportunity for reselling catalog titles was one of the big hopes for HDM.

Universal and Warner in particular have really done pretty nicely for everyone wrt catalog releases. Some here have been pretty ungrateful in their efforts to kickstart HDM.

There should be a bit of soul searching here on what is expected of studios wrt catalog titles. It simply is not realistic to expect studios to spend and lose large sums of money on restoring catalog titles for very much longer.

I think it will change eventually. As the novelty wears off, people will become concerned with buying good movies rather than demo material. I remember when I got started with DVD, I would eagerly anticipate how the discs turned out, what the transfer looked like. Eventually it got to a point where I just bought what I liked and barely paid attention to reviews (unless I just wanted to see what extras were included).

There also will be a point where they just run out of popular action and sci-fi titles to release. That's what frustrates me the most about Fox's delays: the longer it takes them to get these out, the longer it will take them to get to other genres. As the player base gradually gets bigger, they should release a wider variety of titles.

Well. I actually understand that since so many have been sold but I had hoped that many of them would appear on HDM none the less.

Art

All is not lost Art. There will be many great films from yesteryear coming next year:

Bonnie and Clyde
Dirty Harry
Cool Hand Luke

Just to name a few. And if they decide to "cherry pick" the very best of the best - I have no problem with that whatsoever.

Unless you are really into obscure films the "favorites" will make it to HDM . . . just not in the volume of titles that we envisioned.

And to be honest - I want quality - not quantity. I want every scrap of extra footage and every Doc. ever made about the film - I want it ALL.

And the stats at the theater are based on the films they are making.

But fear not - Hollywood is losing it's ass on movies. You know them - you have to really hit them in the wallet to have them come to their senses.

With the HDM formats trying to secure positions, I would expect the catalog titles to take their sweet time.The only real reason for studios to do this is catalog. If they only wanted to sell new movies they could do that on DVD and get the same money.

Maybe some day you can order a classic from Amazon and they burn it to an HD disk of your choice for $7 adder. HD on demand of any catalog title.

Maybe some day you can order a classic from Amazon and they burn it to an HD disk of your choice for $7 adder. HD on demand of any catalog title.
That system has been in place for years with CDs and no one does it. The cost and licensing are too damn expensive and CDs are damn near free.

[This is a very rare post for me, made out of respect for the OP and also interest in the topic.]

Catalog is absolutely not dead. The problem is the format war. I believe that we would have 5 times the rate of adoption and over 2000 titles available domestically were it not for the format war.

Current reasons catalog isn't selling on HDM:
-- there are only a small number of adopters and they are split between two formats.
-- the current adopter demographic is focused on video games/fantasy/action.
-- the current adopter demographic contains people who already have large collections.
-- there is not enough support to fund new masters and special editions, and bare-bones editions aren't selling anyway.

I should add a note of thanks to Warners for continuing to try catalog even though the results have not been encouraging so far. Bonnie and Clyde is Warners, for example. Sony can also be thanked for the excellent Close Encounters, and Paramount deserves some credit for Star Trek TOS (marred by questions about modifications to the special effects but still a worthy efffort.) Warners in particular is in this for the long haul and is trying to position themselves for the day the format war ends and adoption explodes.

[I hope that this post is not outside of the boundaries of discussion that can occur here. I do support the new rules and am not trying to be contentious. I just think that this is a truthful answer to an important question.]

There are relatively few 2K or 4K restorations of classics, but those titles such as Gone with the Wind, Wizard of Oz, Citizen Kane, etc., are probably being held off until the installed base is much higher. Very frustrating for sure.

Earlier this year, Universal claimed their Hitchcock's were scheduled for release later in 2007, yet here we are. Perhaps seeing other classics do so poorly dissuaded Uni from releasing them. Again, very frustrating.

Don't knock the "video gamers" too hard. Without them HDM would already be dead.

Back on topic.

I think catalog titles will trickle down. Hope to see Gone With the Wind and Wizard of Oz sooner than later though.

Don't knock the "video gamers" too hard. Without them HDM would already be dead.

Really couldn't be more wrong but I suspect you may already know that.

Really couldn't be more wrong but I suspect you may already know that.


Beat me to it. :D

Your dream is not dead.

It's just going to take some time to see it pan out. I mean really though, I don't think it was ever reasonable to think classic 1940s films were going to be top sellers.

It bums me Forbidden Planet wasn't a bigger hit so there would actually be a Blu-Ray release (and you surely can't blame PS3 owners for that) but that's just the nature of early adopter demographics.

Sales of older titles must be really frustrating for the studios. The opportunity for reselling catalog titles was one of the big hopes for HDM.
Unfortunately this seems to be true. Predictions for sales of titles including catalogs for both sides this year were WAY higher than what is actually occurring. The studios were really hoping we were going to go out and re-buy many of the title we already have on DVD. I wonder how many folks really are?

Personally, I think many look back at their DVD buying and wonder why they bought as many as they did. Many of the same titles are shown on cable over and over again (of course at lower quality but maybe that doesn't matter to most). And with PVRs they are essentially commercial-free.

How many folks bought DVDs only to watch them once or maybe not at all and now they are collecting dust? And we're expected to re-buy them in HD?

But I am still optimistic that things will improve slowly and steadily throughout the next few years. I am convinced HDM will replace DVD but it will take some time. And until there is a really significant installed base, I just don't think many catalog titles will be worth the cost of authoring, especially if they want to add costly special features.

So I think we need to be patient, but we will eventually be rewarded.

Another loss of the format war is Criterions lack of HDM support. Since they release such wonderful niche classics they needed a bigger and cohesive install base. Until one format wins i would suspect we won't be enjoying foriegn and domestic classics on HDM for a while. It is really too bad since both Casablanca and Robin Hood look great on HD DVD, i wasn't all that impressed by Spartacus though. I would love to experience any of the Kurosawa classics or Marcel Carnes 'Children of Paradise" in full HDM glory.

I also have a question for anyone in the know, when did Hollywood start releasing films in widescreen. I noticed when i popped in my HD DVD versions of Casablanca and Robin Hood they were both 4:3 format, or something close to that. I am not complaining i just expected that both were originally released in widescreen and was suprised by the black bars on the side. So does anyone know which is the first hollywood widescreen release.

Really couldn't be more wrong but I suspect you may already know that.

You guys really think if the PS3 didn't do BD and the 360 didn't have an add-on, that HDM would have come as far as it has?

Your taking millions of installed players out of the picture when you discount the gamers.

Aside from HT enthusiasts, gamers are the only ones who really understand the different resolutions and buy HDM.

The original Xbox had games in 720p/1080i as early as 2002, right there on a television. Only physical media to do so at the time.
I would mention PC games, but they have been in HD for even longer and aren't always displayed on TVs.

Now if my math serves me correctly that 4 YEARS before HDM surfaced.
And you mean to tell me that those whippersnapper "gamers" aren't helping HDM take off.

You guys need some Icy/Hot and some Rolaids.

Get over it.

And as for other catalog titles give me the John Woo classics.

The Killer
Hard Boiled
Bullet In The Head
A Better Tomorrow Trilogy
Once a Thief

[This is a very rare post for me, made out of respect for the OP and also interest in the topic.]

Catalog is absolutely not dead. The problem is the format war. I believe that we would have 5 times the rate of adoption and over 2000 titles available domestically were it not for the format war.

Current reasons catalog isn't selling on HDM:
-- there are only a small number of adopters and they are split between two formats.
-- the current adopter demographic is focused on video games/fantasy/action.
-- the current adopter demographic contains people who already have large collections.
-- there is not enough support to fund new masters and special editions, and bare-bones editions aren't selling anyway.

I should add a note of thanks to Warners for continuing to try catalog even though the results have not been encouraging so far. Bonnie and Clyde is Warners, for example. Sony can also be thanked for the excellent Close Encounters, and Paramount deserves some credit for Star Trek TOS (marred by questions about modifications to the special effects but still a worthy efffort.) Warners in particular is in this for the long haul and is trying to position themselves for the day the format war ends and adoption explodes.

[I hope that this post is not outside of the boundaries of discussion that can occur here. I do support the new rules and am not trying to be contentious. I just think that this is a truthful answer to an important question.]

I completely disagree with the above. If we suddenly had only one format adoption would not explode. If BD went away tomorrow would everyone run out and buy an HD DVD player for under $200.00? No! People use the format war as an excuse not to buy; however, if there was no format war their reasoning for not buying in would be that it was too expensive (compared to you know what) or they don't think HDM is that much better than DVD - in other words not worth the effort. I'm giving an HD DVD player as a Christmas present to someone who wouldn't purchase a player of either format - not becasue there's a format war, but because he doesn't know anything about HDM. He loves movies and appreciates the difference between hockey in SD and hockey in HD so here's hoping he'll appreciate movies in HD! Laser Disc wasn't in a format war, but offered much better video and audio than VHS and stayed niche for nearly twenty years.

Cheers,

Grant

There are 750k HDDVD players out, and even more BD players, so enough potential buyers of movies to start with. Now what's the reason for the lousy number of classic titles sold? Is it the demographic who owns a HD/BD player now? PS3/XB games generation?

By the way, do we have any absolute number of discs sold since release for a certain classic title? I'm curious whether the numbers are really *that* lousy, considering the number of players in the hands of potential buyers...

There should be a bit of soul searching here on what is expected of studios wrt catalog titles. It simply is not realistic to expect studios to spend and lose large sums of money on restoring catalog titles for very much longer.

I disagree.....They are not only the studio's history but they form part of our heritage and should be preserved....Film preservation is very important and not enough is being done to preserve many older films and soon it will be too late.

Another loss of the format war is Criterions lack of HDM support. Since they release such wonderful niche classics they needed a bigger and cohesive install base. Until one format wins i would suspect we won't be enjoying foriegn and domestic classics on HDM for a while. It is really too bad since both Casablanca and Robin Hood look great on HD DVD, i wasn't all that impressed by Spartacus though. I would love to experience any of the Kurosawa classics or Marcel Carnes 'Children of Paradise" in full HDM glory.

I also have a question for anyone in the know, when did Hollywood start releasing films in widescreen. I noticed when i popped in my HD DVD versions of Casablanca and Robin Hood they were both 4:3 format, or something close to that. I am not complaining i just expected that both were originally released in widescreen and was suprised by the black bars on the side. So does anyone know which is the first hollywood widescreen release.

1953 - Beneath The 12 Mile Reef

Same year - How to Marry a Millionaire and The Robe.

Cinemascope!

Brought on by the success of Cinerama. This Is Cinerama was the highest grossing film the year it came out - 1952

1955 - The arrival of Todd-AO - 70mm

First film - Oklahoma! Next film in Todd-A0 - Around The World In Eight Days - 1956.

With the HDM formats trying to secure positions, I would expect the catalog titles to take their sweet time.

The only real reason for studios to do this is catalog. If they only wanted to sell new movies they could do that on DVD and get the same money.

Really good topic.

I agree with both of you. The titles that sell well are the day-and-date releases. Titles like Transformers and Spiderman 3.

Since this is all low volume business for the studios currently, I would expect them to lean more toward these new titles. After all, the studios have all picked sides (except for Warner), and want to see their choice vindicated. Big sellers help pump up the case for their respective format.

In the long run though, I think there are two different motivators for studios in trying to establishing a successor to DVD.

1. I believe some studios see an opportunity to re-issue catalog titles. For a small investment, they get to make money off of their catalog titles again.

2. I believe some studios think that this time they'll get DRM right, and that they'll switch over the customer base to an uncrackable format.

Each format has a better story to tell depending if the studios focus is on item 1 or item 2.

I disagree.....They are not only the studio's history but they form part of our heritage and should be preserved....Film preservation is very important and not enough is being done to preserve many older films and soon it will be too late.

Well that is certainly a nice sentiment. Honestly, I don't really disagree with the sentiment - we just probably disagree on who is going to pay for it.

Who should pay for the preservation of this heritage? Should the studios bankrupt themselves in such an effort? If consumers don't care enough to reward them for the effort to preserve older films, then studios are quite likely going to be very selective in what is preserved.

Or it will take a patron of the arts to step in such as Ted Turner (dont want to get into the colorization effort that was also done) to step up and pay for it?

Are you aware of the remastering effort on the Godfather, who is paying for it and Paramount's "position" on it?

I completely disagree with the above. If we suddenly had only one format adoption would not explode. If BD went away tomorrow would everyone run out and buy an HD DVD player for under $200.00? No! People use the format war as an excuse not to buy; however, if there was no format war their reasoning for not buying in would be that it was too expensive (compared to you know what) or they don't think HDM is that much better than DVD - in other words not worth the effort. I'm giving an HD DVD player as a Christmas present to someone who wouldn't purchase a player of either format - not becasue there's a format war, but because he doesn't know anything about HDM. He loves movies and appreciates the difference between hockey in SD and hockey in HD so here's hoping he'll appreciate movies in HD! Laser Disc wasn't in a format war, but offered much better video and audio than VHS and stayed niche for nearly twenty years.

Cheers,

Grant


So the mass confusion and the fear of investing hundereds (if not thousands) of dollars in the future Betamax has nothing to do with the piss poor HDM numbers? That's quite a relief. Long live the format war!

I'm surprised there's been any excitement for HDM considering this idiotic "war". Who wants to build up a giant library of Betamax tapes?

i think studios should take it on the chin and release catalog titles regardless....they are MINTING money on new releases each week. Losing a few bucks on catalog titles that will appease the "other" demographic isn't going to be a big deal to them..

i think studios should take it on the chin and release catalog titles regardless....they are MINTING money on new releases each week. Losing a few bucks on catalog titles that will appease the "other" demographic isn't going to be a big deal to them..

...and you would think that early adopters are the target demographic for catalog titles/classics, or at the least, early adopters might more likely be film buffs.

Maybe HDM is attracting more eye candy buffs (i.e. younger) vs the older/ more mature film buffs of the LD era?

Art, it is a bit funny the titles that you mentioned. Just within the past 2 weeks, I picked up an HD DVD player, Forbidden Planet, Casablanca, and Star Trek original series season 1 remastered. I absolutely love some of the classics.

I like some of the more recent action & sci-fi movies too. I just finished watching Serenity on HD DVD and really enjoyed it; a nice upgrade over sd dvd.

Don't say that your dream is dead, at least not yet. Just live with "delayed" and/or "limited". The studios are not stupid; well, at least not all the time. They are there to provide entertainment and to make money. If they are not making money, well, they'll either wait for the market to develop, or reevaluate some of their business plans. I'm sure they are watching the sales numbers much closer than anybody here is, and they'll adjust their new releases accordingly.

I expect them to focus on the releases that will help HDM get off the ground, while having a more limited breadth into some of the classics and genres that are not selling as well. I do want to see many more classics released on HDM, but we may have to wait.

Art, it is a bit funny the titles that you mentioned. Just within the past 2 weeks, I picked up an HD DVD player, Forbidden Planet, Casablanca, and Star Trek original series season 1 remastered. I absolutely love some of the classics.

I like some of the more recent action & sci-fi movies too. I just finished watching Serenity on HD DVD and really enjoyed it; a nice upgrade over sd dvd.

Don't say that your dream is dead, at least not yet. Just live with "delayed" and/or "limited". The studios are not stupid; well, at least not all the time. They are there to provide entertainment and to make money. If they are not making money, well, they'll either wait for the market to develop, or reevaluate some of their business plans. I'm sure they are watching the sales numbers much closer than anybody here is, and they'll adjust their new releases accordingly.

I expect them to focus on the releases that will help HDM get off the ground, while having a more limited breadth into some of the classics and genres that are not selling as well. I do want to see many more classics released on HDM, but we may have to wait.

The Warners classics released on HD DVD last year mostly did very very badly according to Videoscan. Forbidden Planet was hundreds of copies, literally. Recently, Paramount's Star Trek TOS sold about 6000 copies in the first week of release (according to my calculations based on Videoscan). Toshiba had a lot of hope that it would sell a ton and a lot of money was spent on it. While there may be some reasons it didn't sell well, it still is not encouraging for classics overall.

Sony very much wanted to release some of their classics on Blu-ray (Lawrence, Kwai, etc.) but has thought the better of it. They are waiting for a better adoption base and also have learned that absolute perfection is required.

I studied the Videoscan numbers WRT classics earlier this year, and, frankly, if I were a studio exec, I would ship very little indeed. Any classic you ship has got to be considered a loss-leader for some sort of future strategy because you won't make back your investment in the short run.

It wasn't just your dream Art. It was a dream shared by dozens and dozens of people around the world.

So the mass confusion and the fear of investing hundereds (if not thousands) of dollars in the future Betamax has nothing to do with the piss poor HDM numbers? That's quite a relief. Long live the format war!

I'm surprised there's been any excitement for HDM considering this idiotic "war". Who wants to build up a giant library of Betamax tapes?

And I'm suprised people are still blaming the 'choice' of formats for people not wanting to immediately go out and replace versions of content they already have, likely watch once in a blue moon, and are perfectly satisfied with, with copies that are
1) significantly more expensive
2) Not revealing of a significant aural or visual difference at the display size and viewing distances they use
3) Not offering any kind of 'convienence breakthrough' over DVD similar to what DVD offered over VHS.

all when gas is over $3 a gallon and the cost of everything else is going up.

also, I would blame
-the incessant bitching about HDM prices (when so many are paying $20 retail shipped to their door)
- the incessant Tier threads...which do their very best to foster ignorant conceptions about just what HD should 'mean' in the art of motion picture presentation in the home
- the incessant poor and equally ignorant reviews from major web sites like High Def Digest and others that feel it is their duty to 'warn' people away from great films because they have...get this..."Bad transfers".
I see that appellation bandied about so often, and used so incorrectly that
it is no wonder to me the studios can't move these things.
Here's a clue- next time you see someone calin that such and such a disc uses a 'bad transfer' 9 times out of 10 that will mean that the poster or reviewer simply doesn't like the way the film was lit, photographed, or the choices of lens, film stock, etc used. There have been very, VERY few bad transfers. There has been digital manipulation on more- but even then, you have so many people that claim to hate bad transfers, but like the digitallly manipulated look given to things like some of the recent Paramount discs.

so no, I don't think the format war is what is primarily holding people back either.
But since you do- how many pre 1990 films do you own in HD?

im with you art.
they will release titles from the 70's,80",90"s
but the hell with the 30's and 40's
its true as others have said they catar to this generation.
this is why lucas and buddy steven should rethink there were gonna wait before letting starwars and indiana jones out the door in hdm.
if i remember when lucas released starwars on dvd,the first week it did well but after that the thrill was gone.i think if mr.s really backs bd like he says he does he could do better then close incounters.i never liked that movie... too sappy for scifi.
being a startrek nut paramount made a mistake doing tos in hd ,but it most likely has to do with the new startrek movie.
the films that did the best were 2,4,6 and 8.
those would have better for hd dvd,i know i would have grabbed them all.
you would think the studios would release there best when new video formats come out,from the 30s,40s 50 60s etc.
ive read the studios want to see hdm take over and kiss sddvd goodbye.
i dont think there helping that happen at all.

Art, I'm with you, I'm really hoping for more catalog titles soon.

Fox is REALLY REALLY pissing me off with their uber-high prices for catalog, keeping me from buying the titles. It's not like I can't afford them, it's just the principle of the thing.

I'm really hoping WB gets back into gear and pumps out some more catalog.

It's a consequence of the way films are marketed and played in theaters. They're designed to open big, earn whatever money they can get in the first 2 weeks, and then fade quickly -- unless they become solid hits.

Studios have become dependent on DVD to make profits. Only a handful of movies turn profitable with theatrical showings and international sales alone. They need video to go in the black, and have structured their marketing to turn every day-and-date release into an "event".

And the thing is, it works (at least for the time being). Hence the rule of the 20-80 -- 20 percent of movies make up for 80 percent of sales.

That leaves little room for catalog releases. They feel that the current HDM installed bases aren't large enough to guarantee solid sales. Throwing their HDM budgets behind current movies with lots of muscles and special effects is a safer bet than taking risks on smaller gems.

Unfortunately, marketers and their exit polls make the calls. Nevertheless, we should not forget that audiences aren't innocent either. When we see how little copies of Black Book or Children of Men are sold on HDM, no wonder that Studios think that the times aren't ripe enough to be brave.

I think the catalog buyer wants quality, does upgrade, were the people who originally bought laserdisc, but need proof this aimed at them. They hate the idea of a format war, they are not keen on buying game machines, and are even a little afraid the 1000+ DVDs they own won't be unsupported down the line if they just "sign on" to HDM.

Mind you these notions need not be rational, you have no idea how many hands I pat while explaining that HD is fully backwards compatible, only to have the same fears pop-up the next day.

I have 1500 DVDs, and I'm not unique among catalog collectors. My interests may be partially obscure, but I also spend 100 fold what joe-blow with 15 DVDs did.

I think if HDM had been one format, priced in the $300, and not tied to game consoles, you'd actually have a much larger base by now, and more catalog titles (and catalog support) to boot.

My take is HD media is being adopted more by electronic lovers than movie lovers. As such catalog titles don’t stand a chance.

I believe you could give everyone in the country a dual format player and HD media sells wouldn’t take off until the studios started releasing HD media at the same time as their DVDs. With rare exceptions the only titles selling well are same day releases… more of an impulse buy (some thing to do versus enjoying a good movie).

Until the masses adopt HD media there won’t be a market large enough for catalog titles to be profitable. At that point there will be enough movie lovers to offset the related expenses.

I think part of the problem is that many people just refuse to double dip - even for HDM which is why new titles sell so much better. I also think it's a generational thing and kind of touches on what Charles R just said- that is the crowd buying the HDM formats are fairly young (18-40 my guess), into new tecnology, and they're less likely to buy older classics from the 60's and earlier.

I think part of the problem is that many people just refuse to double dip - even for HDM which is why new titles sell so much better. I also think it's a generational thing and kind of touches on what Charles R just said- that is the crowd buying the HDM formats are fairly young (18-40 my guess), into new tecnology, and they're less likely to buy older classics from the 60's and earlier.

Well, I guess I get to ride the outer cusp of "fairly young" for nine more months, still, most of what I want (and own) is pre-70's.

I don't think tossing out Robbin Hood, Casablanca, and a few others is a fair
"test" of HDM in the classic film market long-term. Warner was tossing out promises of one per week, and IMO stopped way short of getting enough out there as an act of good faith to get a classic-film buffs on board.

Even the generation x-box and PS3 will mature and will find their way to Rick's café. Everybody comes to Rick's... ;)

[This is a very rare post for me, made out of respect for the OP and also interest in the topic.]

Catalog is absolutely not dead. The problem is the format war. I believe that we would have 5 times the rate of adoption and over 2000 titles available domestically were it not for the format war.

Current reasons catalog isn't selling on HDM:
-- there are only a small number of adopters and they are split between two formats.
-- the current adopter demographic is focused on video games/fantasy/action.
-- the current adopter demographic contains people who already have large collections.
-- there is not enough support to fund new masters and special editions, and bare-bones editions aren't selling anyway.

I should add a note of thanks to Warners for continuing to try catalog even though the results have not been encouraging so far. Bonnie and Clyde is Warners, for example. Sony can also be thanked for the excellent Close Encounters, and Paramount deserves some credit for Star Trek TOS (marred by questions about modifications to the special effects but still a worthy efffort.) Warners in particular is in this for the long haul and is trying to position themselves for the day the format war ends and adoption explodes.

[I hope that this post is not outside of the boundaries of discussion that can occur here. I do support the new rules and am not trying to be contentious. I just think that this is a truthful answer to an important question.]

I strongly disagree. Were it not for the format war, I think you would have seen far fewer players sold due to persistent high cost and there would be fraction of movie releases we have today at probably early LD prices. Competition has been very good to HDM fans so far in increasing availability and reducing cost. Going forward I would love to see a merger or a single victor emerging, but the benefits of war between HD DVD and Blu-ray has outweighed the detriment for the consumer so far.

Please define"consumer" because I totally disagree with your opinion as stated.

As a consumer, I can buy a top tier Blu-ray or HD DVD player for $400 or less. I have from over 300 titles to buy from either camp for ~$20 or less. If it wasn't for the format war I don't think either of those would be true.

You guys really think if the PS3 didn't do BD and the 360 didn't have an add-on, that HDM would have come as far as it has?

Your taking millions of installed players out of the picture when you discount the gamers.

Aside from HT enthusiasts, gamers are the only ones who really understand the different resolutions and buy HDM.

The original Xbox had games in 720p/1080i as early as 2002, right there on a television. Only physical media to do so at the time.
I would mention PC games, but they have been in HD for even longer and aren't always displayed on TVs.

Now if my math serves me correctly that 4 YEARS before HDM surfaced.
And you mean to tell me that those whippersnapper "gamers" aren't helping HDM take off.

You guys need some Icy/Hot and some Rolaids.

Get over it.




Totally, absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly disagree with these arguments.

As a consumer, I can buy a top tier Blu-ray or HD DVD player for $400 or less. I have from over 300 titles to buy from either camp for ~$20 or less. If it wasn't for the format war I don't think either of those would be true.

OOPS! My bad - I apologize - only on my first cup of coffee:o

I see that we DO agree - that the Format war HAS been fantastic for the consumer - I have deleted my previous post.:o:o

I was wondering after the poor showing of Casablanca,Forbidden Planet, Star Trek and others is my dream of seeing thousands of great catalog titles on HDM dead in the water. I feared the demographics early on when I saw that films like Stealth, which stunk worse than my feces after thanksgiving ,did well among the HDM buying public. Additionally ,the statistics that seventy percent of all commercial theater tickets are sold to teen girls added fuel to the fire.

This would be a major bummer for me since I don't see enough recent releases to keep me happy in my theater. I guess I could hope that gradually things change to allow better sales of the great older films but it doesn't look good ,at least in the near term.

Art

So why did they recently release The Wild Bunch?

Good news - I don't think they need to sell tens of thousands of HD DVDs to break even.

I think that when a studio decide to re-visit a film for high def, they do it as a whole project, including a re-mastered SD DVD release and selling the film to High Def film channels.

Subsequently, the only thing they need to worry about for the HD DVD release is whether or not that physical release will break even, not including the cost of re-mastering, etc.

If HD DVDs cost just a little more than SD DVDs, then a run of 1 or 2 thousand will do.

Steve W

So why did they recently release The Wild Bunch?

Good news - I don't think they need to sell tens of thousands of HD DVDs to break even.

I think that when a studio decide to re-visit a film for high def, they do it as a whole project, including a re-mastered SD DVD release and selling the film to High Def film channels.

Subsequently, the only thing they need to worry about for the HD DVD release is whether or not that physical release will break even, not including the cost of re-mastering, etc.

If HD DVDs cost just a little more than SD DVDs, then a run of 1 or 2 thousand will do.
Steve W

You are only comparing the pressing cost IMO - not the total production cost like authoring new menus's, cost of the Glass Master and special features (if they are there)

The Wild Bunch is a "favorite" of movie owners. Always has been. Many consider it to be the greatest western made to date - almost 40 years after it's release.

Catalog is dead. It's been dead for several years.

I feel like you just kicked my kitten.

I have a want-list of titles that have never been released in any consumer format, although I have not scowered the world for bootlegs.

It's catch-22. Some of us old guys won't buy in until there is more of our content, but the studios obviously can't release titles for which there are no buyers. I suppose I'll give in before they do.

But you know what will happen. If the catalog gates open, many of the discs will just be copies of current DVDs, like the current DVDs that are identical to their VHS predecesors. DVD has to be "good enough" because that's all we're going to get most of the time.

Perhaps that's not so bad. For some of this material, SD-DVD really is very good, a collector's dream, really. But not the same as Art's dream.

-Bill

So the mass confusion and the fear of investing hundereds (if not thousands) of dollars in the future Betamax has nothing to do with the piss poor HDM numbers? That's quite a relief. Long live the format war!

I'm surprised there's been any excitement for HDM considering this idiotic "war". Who wants to build up a giant library of Betamax tapes?

Not to belabour the point, but I recently purchased both a BD player and a HD DVD player for a total cost (both formats) of $425.00 before tax and that's in Canada! My experience and your experience (I am assuming this is your experience since you mentioned "thousands") are diametrically opposed.

Art, I rececently saw Beowulf at the IMAX in 3D. If this is the future of cinema then we're in big trouble - all CGI and 3D doesn't leave us with anything I'd say has any lasting artistic merit. It's like going on a fun ride at the amusement park, and that's about it. Luckily we do have some great recent films; however, none are box office hits and many are foreign films ie. The Lives of Others (and yes, many of these films are on HDM).

Cheers,

Grant

your dream is not dead Art,

the problem lies in here.

1. the older generation has lot of money , they also have the time to actually watch movies.

the reason classic dont sell well, has everything to do with marketing. how do you make sure as movie companies that the older generation market will buy those?

and here lies the problem. an older generation of people have already a hard enough time to understand 720p/1080i/1080p then there are the difference between hd-dvd and bluray.

even if that older generation of people want to buy it. they want to watch it easy. they do not want to think what player i need etc.

with a dvd it is easy. a dvd is a disc. when i buy a dvd player i input the disc and that is it. for older people it is hard to understand this whole HDM mess.

so that is in my opinion the reason why classic don't sell that well. it is 100% to blame on the movie studios.

so what sells well? new box office smash hits. because the gaming generation does understand the difference with players, consoles etc.

and that is why it is important that this war stops as soon as possible. if not, older catalog titles will be very hard to sell. and basically the only money that can be made is with new to date movies, series. or with some of those extreme box office hits like indiana jones, star wars , lord of the rings.

The problem is not limited to catalog titles, there are many new-release movies that also don't have Blu-Ray or HD DVD releases. Half the 2006 Academy Awards winners are only available on standard-definition DVD!

your dream is not dead Art,

the problem lies in here.

1. the older generation has lot of money , they also have the time to actually watch movies.

the reason classic dont sell well, has everything to do with marketing. how do you make sure as movie companies that the older generation market will buy those?

Have catalog titles *ever* been of interest to anyone who isn't older and/or a film buff?

Isn't the demographic that buys the latest blockbuster/ eye candy/ action/ fantasy stuff the group least likely to buy catalog, regardless of media type?

I think the catalog buyer wants quality, does upgrade, were the people who originally bought laserdisc, but need proof this aimed at them. They hate the idea of a format war, they are not keen on buying game machines, and are even a little afraid the 1000+ DVDs they own won't be unsupported down the line if they just "sign on" to HDM.

I am this person, but I don't worry about DVD becoming obsolete. I expect my HD DVD player to continue to play SD DVDs.

I think if HDM had been one format, priced in the $300, and not tied to game consoles, you'd actually have a much larger base by now, and more catalog titles (and catalog support) to boot.

Agreed.

That said, I'm not a huge catalog purchaser - I only have about ten older titles.

Have catalog titles *ever* been of interest to anyone who isn't older and/or a film buff?

YES! You'd be amazed at who is interested in the classics. There are a handful of good old musicals that I need to buy for my 12-yr-old daughter (requested Christmas presents) that I'll have to get on SD DVD because they aren't out on HD - but I would gladly buy them in HD if they were available, because they are good films.

....and I think that this limited availability is a big part of the issue. For catalog titles to move a lot of product, you have to have TONS of titles. It seems that everyone has a favorite 'old film', but there are a ot of favorites. While there are certainly people who will pay $25 for a HD version of 'Sound of Music', 'Spartacus', 'Forbidden Planet', and 'Grand Prix', they are probably different people for each film. Thus, to get a lot of people buying catalog titles, you almost have to cover the whole catalog.

all when gas is over $3 a gallon and the cost of everything else is going up.



This always brings a smile to my face when people in America mention the high cost of gas......never fails to make me smile.

We pay about $8 a gallon and rising in the United Kingdom.

Back on track though....Just watched Vera Cruz on the television....Great movie but the picture i saw on BBC 2 definately needed some restoration work done....It would look great in high definition.

so no, I don't think the format war is what is primarily holding people back either.
But since you do- how many pre 1990 films do you own in HD?

ZERO. NADA. NONE. ZILCH.

Like I said before, most people are not in a position to build massive libraries (worth thousands of dollars) of Betamax tapes.

The overwhelming perception is there will be 1 winner and 1 loser in the format war. You pick the losing side, build up your nice 500 disc library, then all of a sudden Warner chooses sides and the format yoiu chose is dead.

No sane person is jumping all the way in until the format war is settled. And no, you movie nuts and early adopters are not sane.

Classics is all fun. To us with a large screen in HD it's well worth it.

People who have seen them in theatres and over and over on television are not going to pay over $15 to view them again on HDM.
Why should they with a 40" screen at a regular viewing distance the sd dvd looks almost just as good.

But in general the market is dead. We have to thank Warner that they are willing to pay for it to bring us classics. We can only hope that the can get enough money back on the few block busters om HDM. That's Warner, (and Universal too) still some evidence that they are in it for the love of the game other Studio's seem to have the financial departments in charge (Fox, Sony).

The adventures of Robin Hood on DVD only sold a couple of thousend copies as well.
That didn't prevent Warner from bringing it to HD.

Not to belabour the point, but I recently purchased both a BD player and a HD DVD player for a total cost (both formats) of $425.00 before tax and that's in Canada!

Cheers,

Grant

You bought your players from a garage sale or as refurbs then.

Cheapest Blu-Ray = 399.99
Cheapest HD DVD = 349.99

Total After Tax = $854.98

Then we get the absolute pleasure of dropping $100 bills left and right buying discs (half of which will be for an obsolete format). HDM rocks!

- the incessant Tier threads...which do their very best to foster ignorant conceptions about just what HD should 'mean' in the art of motion picture presentation in the home

Indeed, I think the tier threads do more harm than good. They seem to exist to create a false sense of confidence for people's purchases. I am appalled when a transfer like Deliverance, which truly has been one of the absolute highlights of these high-def formats, gets almost universally criticized and ends up in one of the lowest tiers.

I sometimes think that the majority of people will not be happy until all HD DVD/Blu-ray releases look like razor-sharp HD video, and not like the film they were actually shot with.

Indeed, I think the tier threads do more harm than good. They seem to exist to create a false sense of confidence for people's purchases. I am appalled when a transfer like Deliverance, which truly has been one of the absolute highlights of these high-def formats, gets almost universally criticized and ends up in one of the lowest tiers.

I sometimes think that the majority of people will not be happy until all HD DVD/Blu-ray releases look like razor-sharp HD video, and not like the film they were actually shot with.


All true and largely ignorance IMO but too many students (who don't think they need to study) and not enough teachers.

Art

I am surprised we have not discussed the issue of which studios are even bothering with catalog titles. Not all are - or at least they are not going back into the past like the 1950's and 1960's. I don't call the 1980's the past . . just MHO.

Well, I'm not worried about the state of classics. Maybe I'm too much a Pollyanna optimist, but I believe the studios will release more catalog material (and "real" classics from the silents through the 50s) over time. Warner is likely to be the leader for a while.

No one has mentioned the hidef mastering process is, currently, MUCH more involved than SD DVD mastering and there are limited facilities and labour to accomplish this. At the Toronto AVSForum meet a month ago, we were informed an SD DVD project can move from producer concept to finished file shipped to the replicator in 3 to 4 days; typically it's 4 to 5 weeks for hidef.

Psychologically, being able to stand up at CES 2008 and announce HD DVD has 1 million players in homes in North America will be very important to "keep the dream alive". And I suspect that same time, next year we'll all have a much more friendly attitude toward hidef and its prospects. It's worth saying again: this is the very first Xmas for the format and even this year it's barely on the radar.

One last comment: hasn't anyone here heard of TCM (Turner Classic Movies)? The service is available in tens of millions of homes, in the US, Canada and the UK (and perhaps elsewhere). There is most definitely a taste for this kind of fare. What we need is to be a little patient as the installed base grows. Show your support of the titles that matter and vote with your wallet. I hope everyone here picks up Casablanca, if they own an HD DVD player and haven't picked it up in HD already ....

It's worth saying again: this is the very first Xmas for the format and even this year it's barely on the radar.
You can repeat it as many times as you'd like, but it won't make it true. This is the second Christmas for both formats.

ZERO. NADA. NONE. ZILCH.

Like I said before, most people are not in a position to build massive libraries (worth thousands of dollars) of Betamax tapes.

The overwhelming perception is there will be 1 winner and 1 loser in the format war. You pick the losing side, build up your nice 500 disc library, then all of a sudden Warner chooses sides and the format yoiu chose is dead.

No sane person is jumping all the way in until the format war is settled. And no, you movie nuts and early adopters are not sane.

I really just don't understand this sentiment. First of all most people don't have massive libaries(worth thousands of dollars) in any format. If you are into film that much that you have invested thousands of dollars collecting DVD's i would consider them an enthusiast. I would expect an enthusiast not to be detered by the format war. You can find a HD DVD for less then 200 dollars and it can play all of your old sd dvds.

I just don't see how spending 200 bucks on a player when you have already invested thousands in your HT setup is a huge risk. Also why wouldn't you buy HD DVD's or BD's. If one side loses the format war, does your player instantly blow up. Are the discs you bought completely useless? NO. If the format war is keeping anyone who is passionate about film on the sideline they are insane. The price and quality of HDM is without a doubt worth it and the players and media will last for a long time, regardless of who wins the war.

You can repeat it as many times as you'd like, but it won't make it true. This is the second Christmas for both formats.

:D

In the end, all formats die. But movies live on. Perhaps if we just can just learn to accept one another, ours will too? Maybe not in the marketplace, but in our hearts and our memories.


Question: Does restoring old films cost studios that much? I was under the impression that it was fairly cheap.

ZERO. NADA. NONE. ZILCH.

Like I said before, most people are not in a position to build massive libraries (worth thousands of dollars) of Betamax tapes.

The overwhelming perception is there will be 1 winner and 1 loser in the format war. You pick the losing side, build up your nice 500 disc library, then all of a sudden Warner chooses sides and the format yoiu chose is dead.

No sane person is jumping all the way in until the format war is settled. And no, you movie nuts and early adopters are not sane.

I cannot understand this logic. If HD DVD were to "die" right now, I still would be able to enjoy, in all their glory, the 120+ titles I own. The cost of a new HDM player becomes almost irrelevant with respect to the cost of the library and unless rack space is limited, putting a disc in one player or another should be a non factor.

Art, hopefully the Studios will figure out a way to market & release classics in a profitable way but I am not holding my breath...... it is all about the $$s and action/sci-fi/special effects currently rules at the box office over content/quality/acting.

Edit: mosman22 same thoughts! :)

In the end, all formats die. But movies live on. Perhaps if we just can just learn to accept one another, ours will too? Maybe not in the marketplace, but in our hearts and our memories.


Question: Does restoring old films cost studios that much? I was under the impression that it was fairly cheap.

Not necessarily so. Here are just a couple articles...
http://www.thebigpicturedvd.com/bigreport7.shtml

A GodFather article (perhaps someone can find a better one):
http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/archives/2007/08/godfather_resto.php

In the end, all formats die. But movies live on. Perhaps if we just can just learn to accept one another, ours will too? Maybe not in the marketplace, but in our hearts and our memories.


Question: Does restoring old films cost studios that much? I was under the impression that it was fairly cheap.

In the recent article that discussed the fact that Paramount refused to spend the money to restore the Camera Negative for The Godfather (it was literally falling apart) - Steven Speilberg "took over" the restoration. The number used was "millions" to do the restoration.

The only real reason for studios to do this is catalog. If they only wanted to sell new movies they could do that on DVD and get the same money. Art:

Your dream is not dead at all.

One of the specific things holding back catalog sales is the lack of titles displayed at the retail level and that is dramatically changing, as we speak.

HD DVD in particular has relatively low mastering and replication costs and if a classic title is being converted to HD DVD using AVC or VC-1 and the studio is just porting over the on the shelf DVD extras the break even point is very low, in the 10,000s of units sold mark, or even less if it is being mastered in a scheduled work flow.

Alot depends on the quality of the master available, and not every catalog title will be cleanup and restoration care, but its cost effective to republish on HD DVD with only a small sales volume.

The most important thing is dramatically increasing the size of the installed hardware base so that non-blockbuster titles can be marketed to a larger market.

One of the major reasons for studios to do HDM is to resell the catalog titles, not just substitute a HD DVD or Blu-ray sale for a DVD one,on a day an date release, or ot grab some supplemental revenues from interactive features.

At current MSRP pricing, of $29.00 +, not a lot of people are going to rebuy their older DVD collections, especially if they are not displayed at brick and mortar retail shelves in inventory. But as the Blu-ray BOGO offers and Circuit City B2G1 HD DVD sales have begin to show, people will buy, non day and date releases, older previously released HD DVD tiles and older catalog titles when the effective price is $14.99 to $19.99.

For a older DVD release, whose sales are essentially dead after 180 days, or are sold for $9.99 or $4.99, a $14.99 HD DVD sale in any volume is found money for the studios and an extra $5 per unit adds up pretty quickly.

Cripes, we already have 350 plus titles for each format available and software and hardware prices are dropping and more an more retail space is being dedicated toward HDM and Wal-Mart just got in the game.

Patience, kind sir, patience. ;)

[This is a very rare post for me, made out of respect for the OP and also interest in the topic.]

Catalog is absolutely not dead. The problem is the format war. I believe that we would have 5 times the rate of adoption and over 2000 titles available domestically were it not for the format war.

Current reasons catalog isn't selling on HDM:
-- there are only a small number of adopters and they are split between two formats.
-- the current adopter demographic is focused on video games/fantasy/action.
-- the current adopter demographic contains people who already have large collections.
-- there is not enough support to fund new masters and special editions, and bare-bones editions aren't selling anyway.

I should add a note of thanks to Warners for continuing to try catalog even though the results have not been encouraging so far. Bonnie and Clyde is Warners, for example. Sony can also be thanked for the excellent Close Encounters, and Paramount deserves some credit for Star Trek TOS (marred by questions about modifications to the special effects but still a worthy efffort.) Warners in particular is in this for the long haul and is trying to position themselves for the day the format war ends and adoption explodes.

[I hope that this post is not outside of the boundaries of discussion that can occur here. I do support the new rules and am not trying to be contentious. I just think that this is a truthful answer to an important question.]I agree that catalog is not dead.

But I think the numbers of adopters are rapidly increasing as hardware prices drop and that sales of catalog titles will continue to increase as software prices drop and are more displayed at retail locations.

As both HD DVD and Blu-ray moves more into the mainstream and more and more people buy the hardware there will be a much larger installed base to market to from a retail perspective.

Throughout this year, retail software HDM sales have been dominated by the PS3, and day and date action films that have energized extra PS3 users into buying a Blu-ray disc above those that have been using it as a dedicated Blu-ray player.

As more and more people buy dedicated players, on both formats, it begins to become profitable for the studios and retailers to service that market segment.

A lot of analysts have identified that somewhere between 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 hardware sockets are needed to create a sustainable base of users to support mass market software sales and for retailers to dedicate shelf space and move away from niche pricing to mass market pricing models.

If HD DVD has sold to date already 500,000 set top boxes and 250,000 plus Xbox 360 HD DVD add ons, it is rapidly approaching that point. Blu-ray will do that soon, if not this season by the end of next year.

When standalone dedicated set top boxes , bought for the express purpose of playing movies, on both formats, begin to overshadow the gaming console player HDM sales , and retailers stock more HDM titles at B&M stores, a lot of the older titles will start to show some movement.

They won't ever do as much as a day and date release, but they don't have too. All they have to do is make a marginal profit, and do better than a zero sales DVD release that is $5 bin priced.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6505633.html?desc=topstory

My Circuit City just went from 20-30 HD DVD and Blu-ray titles on display to over 100 plus for each format, a couple weeks ago.

Just within the last few weeks a lot more retail space has given to HD DVD and Blu-ray software. Every catalog title released so far in both formats has a long shelf life to sell when the hardware sales are dramatically increasing with lower player prices.

So don't give up hope yet for catalog sales.

I was wondering after the poor showing of Casablanca,Forbidden Planet, Star Trek and others is my dream of seeing thousands of great catalog titles on HDM dead in the water. I feared the demographics early on when I saw that films like Stealth, which stunk worse than my feces after thanksgiving ,did well among the HDM buying public. Additionally ,the statistics that seventy percent of all commercial theater tickets are sold to teen girls added fuel to the fire.

This would be a major bummer for me since I don't see enough recent releases to keep me happy in my theater. I guess I could hope that gradually things change to allow better sales of the great older films but it doesn't look good ,at least in the near term.

Art

I am doing my part. I just got Forbidden Planet, Casablanca, and Mutiny on the Bounty on HD and Omega Man on Blu. Bring on the classics!

The Warners classics released on HD DVD last year mostly did very very badly according to Videoscan. Forbidden Planet was hundreds of copies, literally. Recently, Paramount's Star Trek TOS sold about 6000 copies in the first week of release (according to my calculations based on Videoscan). Toshiba had a lot of hope that it would sell a ton and a lot of money was spent on it. While there may be some reasons it didn't sell well, it still is not encouraging for classics overall.

Sony very much wanted to release some of their classics on Blu-ray (Lawrence, Kwai, etc.) but has thought the better of it. They are waiting for a better adoption base and also have learned that absolute perfection is required.

I studied the Videoscan numbers WRT classics earlier this year, and, frankly, if I were a studio exec, I would ship very little indeed. Any classic you ship has got to be considered a loss-leader for some sort of future strategy because you won't make back your investment in the short run. Well the point is there is a long run if the since of the hardware installed bases are increasing as they will be for years and years.

If you have staff compressionists and you have time to schedule for them , converting titles to VC-1 or AVC/MPEG-4 is an ongoing process that can be cost effective.

If you are pressing lots of 25-50,000 units, they can be done once and then sold for years, even if their 2007 calendar sales were low.

In my little old Circuit City, they just increased their HD DVD and Blu-ray sections dramatically. In that one store they happened to have got 5 copies of Forbidden Planet on HD DVD in their new titles. When they had the buy two get one HD DVD sale they sold all 5 copies of that catalog title. Sure its an anecdote, but its true that only a few hundred were sold before, seems likely that more will sell if the price is right.

You bought your players from a garage sale or as refurbs then.

Cheapest Blu-Ray = 399.99
Cheapest HD DVD = 349.99

Total After Tax = $854.98

Then we get the absolute pleasure of dropping $100 bills left and right buying discs (half of which will be for an obsolete format). HDM rocks! A lot of people just bought $99 HD DVD players and $349 Blu-ray players in the last few weeks. $450 for going dual format is not impossible, and that $450 would have got you 10-15 free tHD DVD and Blu-ray titles.

More hardware sold = larger installed base = more software sales = more retail support = more hardware and software sale, rinse and repeat. :D

You can repeat it as many times as you'd like, but it won't make it true. This is the second Christmas for both formats.

In theory yes, in practice no.

For the PS3 and the Xbox 360 add on on that was the case, but no for other set top boxes or dedicated players.

Blu-ray set top players were rare and priced $700-1200.

For HD DVD, all the first generation players were basically out of inventory and the HD A2 was delayed and missed the entice holiday season arriving the last weeks of December at retail The HD XA2 didn't show up until late January 2007.

Blu-ray software pretty much was expensive and sold by the PS3s, and Blu-ray sales did not pick up until mid January , a few weeks after the PS3 holiday sales.

HD DVD prices were at retail at full $29.99 - $39.99 MRSP, with few details and even less support on retail display.

So in effect this is the first real holiday sales period for both formats.:D

I don't think catalog is dead, I think it's limited.

Theres only so many they are going to put out at this point. Its a new format and no one wants to be tied up in piles of catalog releases that arent selling.

If you are a neutral or blu ray adopter...Blu Ray insiders are taking polls on what catalog titles from past decades should be released on the near future. It's a huge list to pick from. You should take part and make your voice heard if some of these flicks are ones you would like to see come out.

In theory yes, in practice no.

For the PS3 and the Xbox 360 add on on that was the case, but no for other set top boxes or dedicated players.

Blu-ray set top players were rare and priced $700-1200.

For HD DVD, all the first generation players were basically out of inventory and the HD A2 was delayed and missed the entice holiday season arriving the last weeks of December at retail The HD XA2 didn't show up until late January 2007.

Blu-ray software pretty much was expensive and sold by the PS3s, and Blu-ray sales did not pick up until mid January , a few weeks after the PS3 holiday sales.

HD DVD prices were at retail at full $29.99 - $39.99 MRSP, with few details and even less support on retail display.

So in effect this is the first real holiday sales period for both formats.:D
What are you talking about? HD DVD launched around April of 2006 and BD launched about nine weeks later. Both formats launched with standalone players, so I'm really not sure what your point is. Higher prices do not negate the existence of the products, nor does a company dropping the ball by having insufficient stock to meet the demand of the Christmas season.

This is the second Christmas for both formats, not the first. This isn't rocket science - all you have to do is look at a calendar.

I saying there is a difference between the format launch and players being available at ridiculous prices in very limited quantities, last year, and this year with vastly more promotion, advertising, retail support, inventory stockage, lower pricing and major retailer support.

Last year was a niche, first adopter sideshow, with little retail support.

Virtually no standalone HD DVD players were available at retail and Blu-ray set top prices were sky high, so effectively both formats missed last holiday season.

Even though the formats were there, this is in effect the first retail season that they are available in any volume at retail.

So yes , this is the second season for both formats, with high Blu-ray prices and non HD DVD players to sell, last year was a virtual no show 4th quarter for both formats.

This is the first real holiday period that units on both sides are available in any quantity not to mention at at price points approaching mass market pricing.

So its effectively the first holiday season.

I saying there is a difference between the format launch and players being available at ridiculous prices in very limited quantities, last year, and this year with vastly more promotion, advertising, retail support, inventory stockage, lower pricing and major retailer support.

Last year was a niche, first adopter sideshow, with little retail support.

Virtually no standalone HD DVD players were available at retail and Blu-ray set top prices were sky high, so effectively both formats missed last holiday season.

Even though the formats were there, this is in effect the first retail season that they are available in any volume at retail.
I'm sorry, but you can spin this a thousand ways, but you can't change the fact that this is the second Christmas for both formats. This may be the first big push during the season for one or both of the formats, but it's still the second Christmas. Again, grab a calendar - this isn't rocket science here.

In the end, all formats die. But movies live on. Perhaps if we just can just learn to accept one another, ours will too? Maybe not in the marketplace, but in our hearts and our memories.


Question: Does restoring old films cost studios that much? I was under the impression that it was fairly cheap.

from the articles ive read on subject, its mostly done by hand (cleaning, splicing, repairing tears, etc), therefore labor intensive, to a point, and that might make it fairly expensive. all depending on condition of film.

other than the restoration process, im curious about how much of remastering and transferring is done by computer and/or some manual processing ?:confused:

ive read a lot about john lowry and his process (business now owned by dts) over the last few years and a lot of computers were (are) used.

the hdm phenominon is only in its infancy, much more to come.:D

...that this is the second Christmas for both formats. This may be the first big push during the season for one or both of the formats, but it's still the second Christmas I agree.

Lets move on. :)

I strongly disagree. Were it not for the format war, I think you would have seen far fewer players sold due to persistent high cost and there would be fraction of movie releases we have today at probably early LD prices. Competition has been very good to HDM fans so far in increasing availability and reducing cost. Going forward I would love to see a merger or a single victor emerging, but the benefits of war between HD DVD and Blu-ray has outweighed the detriment for the consumer so far.

We would have had a $399 Blu-Ray player (PS3) with or without a "format war".

So much for the "format war drives down prices" theory. Economies of scale drive down prices... not format wars.

I frankly am finding the studios and CEMs a little naive in all this, I mean what should they expect? Did they think the catalog-buying portion of the public was going to cart-wheel to HD for a handful of quality titles, amidst a format war, and on a system that requires a minimum $1500 investment to get some bang-for-your buck?

You can't expect the public to take all the risk, and make up all your losses when you have this many obstacles out there. I think Warner, Sony and Universal should know that you have to shove the likes of PSYCHO, LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, and WIZARD OF OZ out there and not expect an immediate pay-off. They're big companies an they ought to be willing to take a few hits just to grow a customer base.

This is the second Christmas for both formats, not the first. This isn't rocket science - all you have to do is look at a calendar.

And then admit he was in error that would close it.

Art

...


A lot of analysts have identified that somewhere between 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 hardware sockets are needed to create a sustainable base of users to support mass market software sales and for retailers to dedicate shelf space and move away from niche pricing to mass market pricing models.

If HD DVD has sold to date already 500,000 set top boxes and 250,000 plus Xbox 360 HD DVD add ons, it is rapidly approaching that point. Blu-ray will do that soon, if not this season by the end of next year.

When standalone dedicated set top boxes , bought for the express purpose of playing movies, on both formats, begin to overshadow the gaming console player HDM sales , and retailers stock more HDM titles at B&M stores, a lot of the older titles will start to show some movement.

...

We need to re-evaluate the role of "game systems" play in this process. Your post echoes a standard assumption that only "dedicated" boxes can count, and that since the PS3 is not "dedicated", it is somehow suspect in the calculus of installed base.

Estimates I am reading are that there are 300,000 "standalone" Blu-ray players in the US today, and 2.61M PS3 consoles (source for the PS3: vgchartz.com). This puts Blu-ray very near to 3M players in the US today.

Obviously, PS3's do not have the same "average attach rate" as the "average" stand-alone. (My estimate is 4:1.) But other players likely have different attach rates as well. My guess is that XA2's and Pioneer Elites have higher attach rates than $99 A2's bought at Walmart, for example. Of course I don't know this but it is plausible to think that people who spend a lot on the player will be more serious disk buyers and collectors than bargain hunters at Walmart sales.

Given the complexity of evaluating the installed base, it may make more sense to look at the disk sales (e.g., Videoscan) to see what is happening.

My personal story on this: when I bought my son-in-law an HD player as a birthday present, I asked him what he wanted. He asked for a PS3 because, as he put it, "it will still be worth something regardless of how the format war turns out". The PS3 may for this reason be attracting Blu-ray customers who like its extra functionality. I have, to date, bought 3 PS3's (2 as gifts), only one of which has even been used for games and only a few times.

In terms of classics, it is my conjecture that PS3 owners do not buy many classic titles. There is evidence in the Videoscan numbers that HD DVD owners are somewhat more likely to buy classics, but both formats suffer greatly in this regard. The "game system" demographic presently dominates both formats.

As my original post in this thread says, we need to see a resolution to the format war before adoption will broaden and deepen to bring us to a point where classics are valued.

I frankly am finding the studios and CEMs a little naive in all this, I mean what should they expect? Did they think the catalog-buying portion of the public was going to cart-wheel to HD for a handful of quality titles, amidst a format war, and on a system that requires a minimum $1500 investment to get some bang-for-your buck?

You can't expect the public to take all the risk, and make up all your losses when you have this many obstacles out there. I think Warner, Sony and Universal should know that you have to shove the likes of PSYCHO, LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, and WIZARD OF OZ out there and not expect an immediate pay-off. They're big companies an they ought to be willing to take a few hits just to grow a customer base.

If significant restoration is needed to result in a quality HD transfer I understand ,they could not recoup the investment right away. Forbidden Planet looked spectacular but was cleaned up for the fiftieth anniversary SD DVD so they had that already.

Art

I really just don't understand this sentiment. First of all most people don't have massive libaries(worth thousands of dollars) in any format. If you are into film that much that you have invested thousands of dollars collecting DVD's i would consider them an enthusiast. I would expect an enthusiast not to be detered by the format war. You can find a HD DVD for less then 200 dollars and it can play all of your old sd dvds.

I just don't see how spending 200 bucks on a player when you have already invested thousands in your HT setup is a huge risk. Also why wouldn't you buy HD DVD's or BD's. If one side loses the format war, does your player instantly blow up. Are the discs you bought completely useless? NO. If the 2) format war is keeping anyone who is passionate about film on the sideline they are insane. The price and quality of HDM is without a doubt worth it and the players and media will last for a long time, regardless of who wins the war.


Interesting... so tell me, do you plan on buying into HD VMD? I mean, I'm sure it plays your old SD DVD's! What a great bargain! You have nothing to lose. That *is* your rationale for buying either HD DVD or Blu-Ray, right? Your HD VMD player won't blow up if it doesn't win the format war. Your HD VMD discs will always be playable.

So let me get this straight...

1) I need to buy a $399.99 PS3 for my Blu-Ray needs.

2) I need to buy a $299.99 HD-A3 for my HD-DVD needs.

3) I need to buy a $199.99 HD VMD Player for my HD VMD's.

4) I need to have a TV that has at least 4 HDMI ports to connect everything at once, or else I need to plug and unplug every device whenever I use it.

5) I need to buy Blu-Ray discs at $40 a pop, HD DVD discs at $40 a pop, and HD VMD discs at $0.99 a pop because each format has it's own exclusive movies.

6) Finally, I have to pretend not to care when 2 of the 3 formats go belly up and I'm stuck with 2 players that wont play new releases. I also have to keep them connected to my magical 4 HDMI port TV while they collect dust in the off chance that I might want to watch Tootsie on HD VMD 3 years from now.

Are those the 6 easy steps to HDM entry? If so, count me out.

I cannot understand this logic. If HD DVD were to "die" right now, I still would be able to enjoy, in all their glory, the 120+ titles I own. The cost of a new HDM player becomes almost irrelevant with respect to the cost of the library and unless rack space is limited, putting a disc in one player or another should be a non factor.

Art, hopefully the Studios will figure out a way to market & release classics in a profitable way but I am not holding my breath...... it is all about the $$s and action/sci-fi/special effects currently rules at the box office over content/quality/acting.

Edit: mosman22 same thoughts! :)


Let me put it as simply as possible... if every major studio announced tomorrow they were pulling out of both Blu-Ray and HD DVD and no more titles would ever be released for either format, what do you think would happen to Blu-Ray and HD DVD player sales? If you say anything other than "they would die", you are dreaming in technicolor.

Most people believe one of these formats will become extinct. As a result, you threw away $400+ on an obsolete player. The people who claim to "not understand" either have way more money than common sense or they are desperately trying to convince themselves that they made a good investment. People invested in a DVD player knowing they had 10+ years of every new release movie... guaranteed. With either Blu-Ray of HD DVD, you have ZERO guarantee beyond the crap that's already available. And yes, it is crap.

You can repeat it as many times as you'd like, but it won't make it true. This is the second Christmas for both formats.

That's nit picking, and you know it.

Last year, a couple of players in both formats managed to be released and there were very few titles in both formats. You didn't find players or discs on shelves in all major retailers nationwide.

This year, we have a genuine roll-out with Wal-Mart, Sears, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City and Amazon all with significant presence in their respective shelf space -- relative to market size. We also have the studios bringing out some "gift type" content and doing serious some marketing push -- national advertising, Disney's Blu-ray Magical Tour in malls, etc.

from the articles ive read on subject, its mostly done by hand (cleaning, splicing, repairing tears, etc), therefore labor intensive, to a point, and that might make it fairly expensive. all depending on condition of film.

That's step one.

Step two is turning over a raw hidef digital master to the compressionist mastering studio which designs the menus, creates the VC-1 files, and prepares a master for disc replication. It's this "step two" which currently takes 4 to 5 weeks vs. 3 to 4 days for SD DVD. It's a significant bottleneck and won't be fixed in a short period of time. New facilities need to be bought; new folks trained; and better authoring software developed.

Most people believe one of these formats will become extinct. As a result, you threw away $400+ on an obsolete player.

I doubt that, when one format emerges as "victor", hardware will disappear instantly. Long after the writing was on the wall you could still buy good quality Betamaxes. Also, dual format players are clearly technically feasible and by the time we have a "victor" there will be a decent after-market open for CEs to sell "all-in-one" players for a few years yet.

The investment in red or blu software today is a pretty low risk proposition.

That's step one.

Step two is turning over a raw hidef digital master to the compressionist mastering studio which designs the menus, creates the VC-1 files, and prepares a master for disc replication. It's this "step two" which currently takes 4 to 5 weeks vs. 3 to 4 days for SD DVD. It's a significant bottleneck and won't be fixed in a short period of time. New facilities need to be bought; new folks trained; and better authoring software developed.

I think you need to realize why it takes so long. If it takes 4-5 weeks to make menus and create a compressed movie in vc-1, then you will never have a successful business going. You see, when you have enough bandwidth and space, you can do a lazy encode like the D-Theater movies were. No one complained about D-Theater picture quality and they are all CBR encoded (Constant Bit Rate). It means they set a # for the bitrate and encoded the whole movie at the same bitrate. When you encode a movie and you have these low ceilings for bandwidth and space, you have to take time and hand tune these encodes. However, when you have a lot more space and bandwidth, you can do quicker encodes at even higher bandwidth, and have better PQ in the process. Less time wasted, higher quality, and costs the studios a lot less.

I doubt that, when one format emerges as "victor", hardware will disappear instantly. Long after the writing was on the wall you could still buy good quality Betamaxes. Also, dual format players are clearly technically feasible and by the time we have a "victor" there will be a decent after-market open for CEs to sell "all-in-one" players for a few years yet.

The investment in red or blu software today is a pretty low risk proposition.

That argument is dependant on DF players reaching sub $300... and fast.

The consumer is also put in a position of being "forced" to buy a potentially inferior DF player (to play those outdated discs of the failed format) instead of choosing from a wide selection of the victorious formats standalone players.

If you ever buy a standalone player, half your movies won't work. Compare that to the guy who waited 6 months, bought a 6th gen Blu-Ray or HD DVD standalone and has 100% compatibility with all his movies, plus 5-10 years of guaranteed new releases.

It's a hobby. If you like HD, you buy it. This isn't an investment in the typical sense, the money for HT spending (at least for me) is discretionary spending.. Some like travel, some want a fancy car, some want expensive clothes.... I like a nice theater and spending on new technology means that things are improving, so I am happy to upgrade.

Ht is not a 'need' so those that complain about it and it possible obsolescence or obsolete players are simply preaching to the choir.

I had / have a VHS player, LD player, DVD player and D-VHS players that have all met the same fate.....format death (or dying). There is no reason to believe HD DVD and BD won't join the ranks at some point (sooner or later). When each will go south??? Who knows and who cares!.. If each format lasts another year, I'd be disappointed but not regretful. I haven't seen PQ and AQ this good ever....So I'll use / buy it until the well runs dry regardless....

It is par for the course in this hobby... Fortunately, equipment in the theater progresses slower than cell phone technology. So we're not gettign totally screwed with brand new technology each year that is worth upgrading to.:D

If there are folks that are really nervous about the investment potential of a particular format or format death sooner than later, my advice is wait for a clear winner.

It's a hobby. If you like HD, you buy it. This isn't an investment in the typical sense, the money for HT spending (at least for me) is discretionary spending.. Some like travel, some want a fancy car, some want expensive clothes.... I like a nice theater and spending on new technology means that things are improving, so I am happy to upgrade.

Ht is not a 'need' so those that complain about it and it possible obsolescence or obsolete players are simply preaching to the choir.

I had / have a VHS player, LD player, DVD player and D-VHS players that have all met the same fate.....format death (or dying). There is no reason to believe HD DVD and BD won't join the ranks at some point (sooner or later). When each will go south??? Who knows and who cares!.. If each format lasts another year, I'd be disappointed but not regretful. I haven't seen PQ and AQ this good ever....So I'll use / buy it until the well runs dry regardless....

It is par for the course in this hobby... Fortunately, equipment in the theater progresses slower than cell phone technology. So we're not gettign totally screwed with brand new technology each year that is worth upgrading to.:D

If there are folks that are really nervous about the investment potential of a particular format or format death sooner than later, my advice is wait for a clear winner.

I agree with you.

For HT enthusiasts, going format neutral is no big deal. But we're talking mass adoption.

Joe and Jane got great value out of their VHS player. I had mine for 6-7 years, Blockbuster was full of new rentals week anfter week after week, thousands and thousands of movies were available, etc. When VHS died we didn't feel ripped off or like we wasted our money. The format had a good long run and we rejoiced because it was replaced with a superior format.

Joe and Jane got even greater value out of their DVD player. Rentals, 70,000+ titles, years and years of steady streams of new releases, etc. We also know for a stone cold fact that DVD will be alive and kicking for at LEAST 5 more years. That's 15+ years of value.

Joe and Jane got 15+ years of value for their VHS and DVD collections. With HDM, due to the format war, if is a very real possibility you might only get 6 more moths of value. Warner could choose sides tomorrow and you're left in the lurch. Catalogue titles die, withing months no new releases, the limited shelf space given to your format shrinks day by day until it disappears. Now you're stuck with an oudtades player that can only be used to watch 300 movies. Just great.

VHS: 20+ years of value.
DVD: 15+ years of value.

HDM: Less than 1 year?

People invested in a DVD player knowing they had 10+ years of every new release movie... guaranteed. With either Blu-Ray of HD DVD, you have ZERO guarantee beyond the crap that's already available. And yes, it is crap.

Yea in 1997 When I payed 1250 USD for my Toshiba DVD player I knew that I had ten plus years guarenteed for my investment.:rolleyes:

Even if there were only one format ,the releases, their quality and the lifespan of that format would have been in serious question.

Art

Yea in 1997 When I payed 1250 USD for my Toshiba DVD player I knew that I had ten plus years guarenteed for my investment.:rolleyes:

Even if there were only one format ,the releases, their quality and the lifespan of that format would have been in serious question.

Art

Yes, but most people didn't jump in to DVD in 1997. You are an early adopter and there are VERY few of you. The masses jumped in only once it became clear we would have years and years and years of future value.

Would you buy a TV with amazing PQ if you were told that there was a 50/50 chance of it dying in 6 months? Or that there was a 50/50 chance of it not accepting 80% of the channels on TV in 6 months? You might answer yes, but the masses would NEVER even think of throwing away money like that.

Time and again in the Insider threads, the point has been made that CE vendors and studios alike on both sides of the format war recognize HDM is in it's infancy. It will likely be some time (if ever) before there is a single victor, and even a longer time still before HD media sale supplant DVD sales.

Until such time as studios are assured that there is a vast enough installed base of players, I expect that more niche titles will not be forthcoming at a significant rate.

How did this lay out with DVD? It's now assumed everybody has a DVD player... and it was the first format to supplant a previous video format (VHS). How long after it's introduction before such catalog titles were released? Not within the first 18 months I'd guess...

I just peeked at a couple mentioned: Casablanca & Forbidden Planet. Both released in 2000, 3 years after DVD's debut...

You guys really think if the PS3 didn't do BD and the 360 didn't have an add-on, that HDM would have come as far as it has?

Your taking millions of installed players out of the picture when you discount the gamers.

...



Millions of installed HDM players when counting game consoles is technically true.

But with recent polls suggesting that only 15-20% of installed PS3 owners use their consoles for Blu Ray movies, and ~200K 360 add-ons out there, the more realistic picture is that game consoles represent a few hundred thousand pairs of movie-watching eyeballs.

That's nit picking, and you know it.
I'm sorry, but what you said was wrong. Deal with it and move on with your life. Nothing you can say will make your original statment correct. We all know when these formats launched and we all know that this is the second Christmas for both of them.

Yes, but most people didn't jump in to DVD in 1997. You are an early adopter and there are VERY few of you. The masses jumped in only once it became clear we would have years and years and years of future value.

Would you buy a TV with amazing PQ if you were told that there was a 50/50 chance of it dying in 6 months? Or that there was a 50/50 chance of it not accepting 80% of the channels on TV in 6 months? You might answer yes, but the masses would NEVER even think of throwing away money like that.

Well then how in the hell would I expect ten years unless I bought in early ,it's only ten years old.
But again the device wouldn't die as you say anyway. We all expect that HDM will be supplanted by downloaded titles to set to servers and very very likely a lot sooner than ten years from the release of HDM and this would be irrespective of a format war.

Weren't you the guy who said we will know in the next few months who the winner in the format war is ? If you know something let us know so we can invest our stocks more wisely.

Art

Well then how in the hell would I expect ten years unless I bought in early ,it's only ten years old.
But again the device wouldn't die as you say anyway. We all expect that HDM will be supplanted by downloaded titles to set to servers and very very likely a lot sooner than ten years from the release of HDM and this would be irrespective of a format war.

Art

How will portable video players (disc or memory) and car video players connect to servers reliably?

Physical media will never go away.

Yes, but most people didn't jump in to DVD in 1997. You are an early adopter and there are VERY few of you. The masses jumped in only once it became clear we would have years and years and years of future value.


No, they bought in when there were lots of things to watch and the players were cheap.

I keep seeing this "18 month" committment from Paramount, but I can't find the exact quote where this was said by Paramount.

Can some one please provide a link . . .thank you.

Weren't you the guy who said we will know in the next few months who the winner in the format war is ? If you know something let us know so we can invest our stocks more wisely.

Art
He's also the guy who said "HDM's day has come and passed. It's done."

Yea in 1997 When I payed 1250 USD for my Toshiba DVD player I knew that I had ten plus years guarenteed for my investment.:rolleyes:

Even if there were only one format ,the releases, their quality and the lifespan of that format would have been in serious question.

Art
I bought my first DVD player in 1999 and there was certainly no guarantee that I would have "10+ years of every new release movie." Hell, DIVX was still around then - and the futures of both were still up in the air. None of my friends or family even knew what it was when I brought it home. :D

I think Studios are going to find themselves with a VERY hard sell to get the masses to replace their DVD collections with HDM collections. Once the majority adopts HDM, they will buy new stuff in HDM, but I think only a very small minority will upgrade their current DVDs.

I think you need to realize why it takes so long. If it takes 4-5 weeks to make menus and create a compressed movie in vc-1, then you will never have a successful business going.

I think you need to realise that the software and hardwaretools are evolving; the bits being twiddled are vast relative to DVD; and be grateful the studios are, in fact, using codecs like VC-1, even with lengthy encode times, to ensure what they are delivering on disc approximates the original very very well.

Give it another year and there will be more staff and equipment to do these encodes and better tools. Maybe it will only take 2 weeks to complete a project by this time next year. My main point here is it's a business bottleneck and one reason there aren't hundreds of catalog titles on the market yet. But they'll come.

I think Studios are going to find themselves with a VERY hard sell to get the masses to replace their DVD collections with HDM collections. Once the majority adopts HDM, they will buy new stuff in HDM, but I think only a very small minority will upgrade their current DVDs.

The vast majority of homes only have a couple of dozen discs in their collections. They don't need to upgrade their existing DVDs because they'll just buy other stuff.

As collectors move to hidef, they'll do what collectors always do: be selective about what to buy next, and what to revisit. At some point, like with VHS, they will throw away the old stuff, or replace it if it still has value for them. I have a few VHS tapes left of things I've never seen on DVD. Some of these I'd replace in a heartbeat; others, I wouldn't bother. The same will apply, over time, the hidef vs. DVD.

Hands up collectors here who believe they "have collected everything they want" and therefore will not buy hidef because they would "just be duplicating what I have"? I just had the pleasure of seeing two "new" Fox releases on DVD -- Laird Cregar in The Lodger and Hangover Square, both made in the mid-40s. Had they been on hidef (at a reasonable price), I'd have bought them that way, not on DVD.

Well then how in the hell would I expect ten years unless I bought in early ,it's only ten years old.
But again the device wouldn't die as you say anyway. We all expect that HDM will be supplanted by downloaded titles to set to servers and very very likely a lot sooner than ten years from the release of HDM and this would be irrespective of a format war.

Weren't you the guy who said we will know in the next few months who the winner in the format war is ? If you know something let us know so we can invest our stocks more wisely.

Art

I already told you that the argument doesn't apply to you as an early adopter. The masses only jumped in once it became clear that DVD was a safe bet for 10+ years. Even those who waited until today (December 2, 2007) to make the jump to DVD know for a stone cold fact that they will get 5+ years of solid value at a bare minumum... more likely 8-10 years.

And please understand that "value" doesn't mean watching "Failure To Launch" over and over and over again on your fancy HD DVD player, so that kills your "but, the player wont explode if the format I buy loses" argument. Value means Blockbuster full of your formats videos, new releases every week, etc.

If one format dies, there is no future value. None. Maybe you would be happy with "Failure To Launch" and 250 other no-name titles, but most people would be pissed off having to buy the winning formats machine and movies *after* having wasted money on the losing formats player and discs. And of course, you need to keep the losing formats player hooked to your TV forever just to watch the same pathetic 300 or so discs when the winning formnat has 10,000 or more.

No, they bought in when there were lots of things to watch and the players were cheap.

They didn't care about new releases, right? Only old movies they already owned on VHS? The mere fact the players were cheap and a bunch of old movies were available sold them? Nope. The fact they knew that NEW RELEASES were guaranteed on DVD sold them, not silent movies from the 20's.

The future was secure with DVD before the masses jumped in. If people believed there was a chance studios would bail on DVD, it wouldn't have grown NEARLY as quickly as it did. End of story.

There is ZERO guaranteed future value with either Blu-Ray or HD DVD, unless your definition of value is collecting 250 movies you hate and watching them over and over with no new releases. You need to accept that reality. It's simple, really.

I already told you that the argument doesn't apply to you as an early adopter. The masses only jumped in once it became clear that DVD was a safe bet for 10+ years. Even those who waited until today (December 2, 2007) to make the jump to DVD know for a stone cold fact that they will get 5+ years of solid value at a bare minumum... more likely 8-10 years.

And please understand that "value" doesn't mean watching "Failure To Launch" over and over and over again on your fancy HD DVD player, so that kills your "but, the player wont explode if the format I buy loses" argument. Value means Blockbuster full of your formats videos, new releases every week, etc.

If one format dies, there is no future value. None. Maybe you would be happy with "Failure To Launch" and 250 other no-name titles, but most people would be pissed off having to buy the winning formats machine and movies *after* having wasted money on the losing formats player and discs. And of course, you need to keep the losing formats player hooked to your TV forever just to watch the same pathetic 300 or so discs when the winning formnat has 10,000 or more.

So your point this time is ? None of us believes HDM will replace DVD as it came at a time when it ,movie releases etc were ripe for it. But I know personally that I have a limited lifespan so I'm not going to wait for five years from inception to see if I wasted my three hundred dollars since in that time I would have lost hundreds of hours of enjoyment.

So you believe that there will be a HDM format that will reach 10,000 titles ? This doesn't jibe at all with HDM being dead.


Art

I bought my first DVD player in 1999 and there was certainly no guarantee that I would have "10+ years of every new release movie." Hell, DIVX was still around then - and the futures of both were still up in the air. None of my friends or family even knew what it was when I brought it home. :D

Both of you making this argument own HDM players. See a pattern? Early adoption perhaps?

The masses are not early adopters.

Both of you making this argument own HDM players. See a pattern? Early adoption perhaps?

The masses are not early adopters.

Oh, I definitely see a pattern. I also see HDM owners arguing with bitter non-owners (on an area of the forum dedicated to discussing nothing but HDM) who have nothing better to do than crap on things they don't have.


I mean seriously - your arguments don't even make sense. "There is ZERO guaranteed future value with either Blu-Ray or HD DVD, unless your definition of value is collecting 250 movies you hate and watching them over and over with no new releases. You need to accept that reality. It's simple, really." Why would someone buy 250 movies that they hate? Why would someone watch movies that they hate over and over? :rolleyes:

You mockingly list Failure to Launch as if that's the best movie available on HDM. What about movies like Casino, Casablanca, The Adventures of Robin Hood, Grand Prix, The Searchers, Unforgiven, Goodfellas, The Departed, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, etc.?

Oh, I definitely see a pattern. I also see HDM owners arguing with bitter non-owners (on an area of the forum dedicated to discussing nothing but HDM) who have nothing better to do than crap on things they don't have.


I mean seriously - your arguments don't even make sense. "There is ZERO guaranteed future value with either Blu-Ray or HD DVD, unless your definition of value is collecting 250 movies you hate and watching them over and over with no new releases. You need to accept that reality. It's simple, really." Why would someone buy 250 movies that they hate? :rolleyes:

Well, If I didn't own an HDM player and I hung out at a HT enthusiasts site with HDM player owners around me all the time, I'd be bitter too!!!:D

Well, If I didn't own an HDM player and I hung out at a HT enthusiasts site with HDM player owners around me all the time, I'd be bitter too!!!:D
Excellent point.

If significant restoration is needed to result in a quality HD transfer I understand ,they could not recoup the investment right away. Forbidden Planet looked spectacular but was cleaned up for the fiftieth anniversary SD DVD so they had that already.

Art

I don't know where i got this idea from, but i was under the impression that a good many catalog titles have been remastered in HD for HDTV syndication packages, and are pretty much just waiting in the wings.

The future was secure with DVD before the masses jumped in. If people believed there was a chance studios would bail on DVD, it wouldn't have grown NEARLY as quickly as it did. End of story.Actually the masses adopted DVD the moment the latest movie release they wanted to watch was available at Blockbusters. If they wanted something secure they would have stayed with VHS.

I don't know where i got this idea from, but i was under the impression that a good many catalog titles have been remastered in HD for HDTV syndication packages, and are pretty much just waiting in the wings.

And all are OAR? I haven't seen that. And I have all the preminum channels. At least 1/2 if not more of the movies (2.40) are shown zoomed.

Heat
Dirty Harry

Just to name two right off the bat.

Yea in 1997 When I payed 1250 USD for my Toshiba DVD player I knew that I had ten plus years guarenteed for my investment.:rolleyes:

Even if there were only one format ,the releases, their quality and the lifespan of that format would have been in serious question.

Art

Nonetheless I haunt a lot of movie "enthusiast" forums that think ten years is premature on their investment (probably 8 years for most).

I've embraced HD because I used to collect film, and with the right equipment HD is the closest (sane) way of getting film-quality in your living-room without chucking $400+ at each title.

It's true that it really isn't that fun buying the same dam film every five-six years, if your collection is big enough you end up dumping editions that you've never even broken the shrink-wrap on be fore the next comes along. There is something pitifully wasteful about that even if money is no issue.

People seem to have short term memory. It took a while, and more than several frustrating years for the studios to really open up with the catalog product.
I can remember back in 2002 reading on boards dedicated to cult and horror films, the posters taking Warner to task for being so miserly with their classics
"Where is Omega Man? or Soylent Green? or King Kong? or Howard Hawks The Thing? Not to mention Mad Love or Val Lewton films"
At that same time, you could also not buy My Darling Clementine, Ghost And Mrs Muir, Mark Of Zorro, Laura, The Thin Man, Adventures Of Robin Hood, Treasure Of The Sierra Madre, Out Of The Past, The Monolith Monsters, Revenge Of The Creature, The Universal Hammer horrors, Moon Over Miami, Robinson Crusoe On Mars, and on and on and on.

And that was FIVE years after DVD debuted!

And I still can't go online or walk into a store and buy a copy of the Natalie Wood/Steve McQueen film Love With The Proper Stranger.

honestly- I feel your pain Art, but I think we are damn lucky to be getting the pitiful amount of catalog material that we are at the moment. The quality of material/choice of titles available a year and a half in is FAR better than it was for DVD at the same point.
Sure it could be better, but it could also be a hell of a lot worse.

And all are OAR? I haven't seen that. And I have all the preminum channels. At least 1/2 if not more of the movies (2.40) are shown zoomed.

Heat
Dirty Harry

Just to name two right off the bat.

I don't know a lot about satellite and cable HD services, but I subscribe to a great magazine called "Video Watchdog," that kind of caters to horror, art-house, spaghetti-western and Euro-trash fans; and the editor frequently gave reports on how this stuff was looking on the HD services (catering to these films) he'd subscribed to. I think one of these services is already dead, but he was talking about Universal horror films from the 40's and MGM and Warner owned stuff from the 60's (an definitely would have noted if they were pan-and-scan).

Likewise there have been many recent double-dip DVDs of catalog stuff that say "remastered in high-definition" on them, and I just sort of assumed it was in prep for cable and HDM, and that they were picking up chump-change on DVD one last time as long as they'd gone to the trouble and HDM is moving so slowly. For instance, around Halloween 06 UNIVERSAL did "75TH ANNIVERSARY EDITIONS" of DRACULA and FRANKENSTEIN and announced both DVD and HD DVD editions. Well, HD DVD got behind schedule and the DVDs came out, but the HD DVDs quickly fell from the roster. The SD DVDs also didn't do that well, because this marked the third-run for these titles on SD.

Catalog titles would be fine if the studios would learn to price it right. If say Casablanca was $10-12 I would consider buying it, but theres no way I would pay $19 since I already have it on DVD.

Most BD catalog titles I have gotten have come during the BOGO sales, when surprising the average selling price was '10-12' per disc.

Actually the masses adopted DVD the moment the latest movie release they wanted to watch was available at Blockbusters. If they wanted something secure they would have stayed with VHS.

Studios haven't supported VHS since 2005. Show me Spiderman 3 on VHS.

Please explaine how VHS was "secure" at the time the masses chose DVD. DVD was futureproof (secure). VHS was not futureproof (not secure). The masses were right and you are wrong.

What is it people aren't understanding about this argument? It's not complicated. People will not buy into HDM en mass until future value is guaranteed. As long as we have a format war, there is no guaranteed future value.

Catalog titles would be fine if the studios would learn to price it right. If say Casablanca was $10-12 I would consider buying it, but theres no way I would pay $19 since I already have it on DVD.

Most BD catalog titles I have gotten have come during the BOGO sales, when surprising the average selling price was '10-12' per disc.

I'm just the opposite, I have no problem with paying $19 for catalog since I know it will sell fewer, and I know it's a great films. New stuff on SD I'm used to scooping out of used bins for $7.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795137

:)

Since when has buying movies become an investment? Is anyone planning on making money by buying movies for their viewing pleasure?

They are an expense . . .pure and simple. The enjoyment you get from watching them should equal the money you spent buying them.

If not - stop making blind buys.:p

There is ZERO guaranteed future value with either Blu-Ray or HD DVD, unless your definition of value is collecting 250 movies you hate and watching them over and over with no new releases. You need to accept that reality. It's simple, really.

Which makes both HDMs no different from any other video or audio format that has ever been introduced. I proudly admit that I'm an early adopter (my longtime friends jokingly call me "The First Adopter" because I'm always the first person they know to own any new format). The feeling that I had when I got into HDM last year is EXACTLY the same as the feeling I got when I bought my first VHS, Beta, LD, CD, DAT, MD, DVD and MP3 player/recorders. The fact is, when a new format comes out, nobody EVER knows whether or not it will be around 5 years later. The difference between an early adopter and a regular consumer is that early adopters aren't as concerned about being secure about their purchase. Enjoying their hobby to the maximum extent possible is more important. Nobody holds a gun to our head forcing us to buy this stuff. It's a choice.

I've owned LD, DAT and MD. Formats that never reached mass acceptance (although now that I live in Japan, I would have to exclude MD from this list). Do I regret the money that I've spent on the hardware and software for these formats? Not for one moment. Because the years of enjoyment I got out all of them has its own value to me. I don't regret spending money on these things any more than I regret spending money on the trips I've taken over years. Like traveling, it's the EXPERIENCE that has value, not the hardware or software.

My question for you is how would YOU define the dividing line between an early adopters and the average consumer? I don't remember any formal announcements for any of the above-mentioned formats to the effect that, "It's OK to jump in now! The future of this format is assured! We PROMISE that this will be around for at least 5 more years!" Whether or not a format is secure is really a subjective judgement that is different for each consumer. Certainly there is a point where the user base reaches a certain "critical mass." But how do you determine what that magic number is? Is everyone who buys into a new technology before that point an "early adopter?"

Since when has buying movies become an investment? Is anyone planning on making money by buying movies for their viewing pleasure?

They are an expense . . .pure and simple. The enjoyment you get from watching them should equal the money you spent buying them.

If not - stop making blind buys.:p

$400 + on an HDM player is not an investment, huh? It's just a random expense with no expectation of return (future enjoyment) I suppose.

Wrong.

My question for you is how would YOU define the dividing line between an early adopters and the average consumer? I don't remember any formal announcements for any of the above-mentioned formats to the effect that, "It's OK to jump in now! The future of this format is assured! We PROMISE that this will be around for at least 5 more years!" Whether or not a format is secure is really a subjective judgement that is different for each consumer. Certainly there is a point where the user base reaches a certain "critical mass." But how do you determine what that magic number is? Is everyone who buys into a new technology before that point an "early adopter?"

Interesting question. In the past, I think that customers felt they could rely on particular content providers who had announced support to continue as long as there was reasonable demand. Certainly, Beta, LD, and VHS were all given "soft landings" by their supporting providers.

This "covenant" between consumers and studios was however broken by Paramount when they unceremoniously dumped Blu-ray, which was selling 2:1 on their own titles.

I am afraid that I told all of my friends to back off from both formats until the matter was completely resolved and the surviving format a reasonable success after Paramount reneged.

So, I don't know how customers can tell that "it is safe to go into the water" anymore. When large companies can pay astronomical prices to get studios to abandon you, I just don't know.

Nonetheless I haunt a lot of movie "enthusiast" forums that think ten years is premature on their investment (probably 8 years for most).

I've embraced HD because I used to collect film, and with the right equipment HD is the closest (sane) way of getting film-quality in your living-room without chucking $400+ at each title.

It's true that it really isn't that fun buying the same dam film every five-six years, if your collection is big enough you end up dumping editions that you've never even broken the shrink-wrap on be fore the next comes along. There is something pitifully wasteful about that even if money is no issue.

Well I'm with you. The rate of change in the world is a very very uncomfortable thing for me,nothing to hold on to. But the promise of HD predates my having any decent equipment. It is nearly perfect if done right and on my system looks better than any commercial venue I've seen.

To change back to the topic I want to see hundreds and hunbdreds of great films on HDM. I still buy a lot of DVD since 1930s through 1960's black and whites still can look incredible but give me the best we can have. I'm at that juncture where I do not buy recent films on DVD any more but only old fiolms I'd like to start to see me buying fewer old films in SD.

Art

$400 + on an HDM player is not an investment, huh? It's just a random expense with no expectation of return (future enjoyment) I suppose.

Wrong.


Anyone who buys consumer electronics as an investment needs to have his head examined.

Art

Which makes both HDMs no different from any other video or audio format that has ever been introduced. I proudly admit that I'm an early adopter (my longtime friends jokingly call me "The First Adopter" because I'm always the first person they know to own any new format). The feeling that I had when I got into HDM last year is EXACTLY the same as the feeling I got when I bought my first VHS, Beta, LD, CD, DAT, MD, DVD and MP3 player/recorders. The fact is, when a new format comes out, nobody EVER knows whether or not it will be around 5 years later. The difference between an early adopter and a regular consumer is that early adopters aren't as concerned about being secure about their purchase. Enjoying their hobby to the maximum extent possible is more important. Nobody holds a gun to our head forcing us to buy this stuff. It's a choice.

I've owned LD, DAT and MD. Formats that never reached mass acceptance (although now that I live in Japan, I would have to exclude MD from this list). Do I regret the money that I've spent on the hardware and software for these formats? Not for one moment. Because the years of enjoyment I got out all of them has its own value to me. I don't regret spending money on these things any more than I regret spending money on the trips I've taken over years. Like traveling, it's the EXPERIENCE that has value, not the hardware or software.

My question for you is how would YOU define the dividing line between an early adopters and the average consumer? I don't remember any formal announcements for any of the above-mentioned formats to the effect that, "It's OK to jump in now! The future of this format is assured! We PROMISE that this will be around for at least 5 more years!" Whether or not a format is secure is really a subjective judgement that is different for each consumer. Certainly there is a point where the user base reaches a certain "critical mass." But how do you determine what that magic number is? Is everyone who buys into a new technology before that point an "early adopter?"


Well, with a 50/50 chance of your chosen format being dead 1 year from now, HDM is anything but secure. A unified format is only one of several benchmarks required for mass adoption. Another would be support from all major studios for the winning format. Yet another would be all new releases available on the winning format, etc., etc., etc.

As for the magic number, I don't think there are ony two groups of consumers: earely adopters and the general public. There are probably a dozen or so groups with various levels of risk tolerance. These groups range from the "ultra early adopters" who will buy anything that lights up or makes noises (98% of AVS members) to ultra late adopters who came on board with DVD in the last 2 years.

As benchmarks are reached, more and more of the adopter groups join in and eventually you see a mass market.

We have not reached benchmark #1 yet. That is pathetic. And worse yet, many fail to see it as an issue (many on this board I should say - most people I know wouldn't touch HDM with a stick until the war is settled).

I don't know where i got this idea from, but i was under the impression that a good many catalog titles have been remastered in HD for HDTV syndication packages, and are pretty much just waiting in the wings.

I'm not saying that this hasn't happened just that the example of Forbidden Planet the HDNet version can't touch the HDDVD.I therefore surmised that it had been given the right treatment as the 50th for both the DVD and HDDVD.

Art

Anyone who buys consumer electronics as an investment needs to have his head examined.

Art

Anyone who doesn't fully understand the word investment needs a dictionary... and fast.

Investment: "A commitment, as of time or support."

Anyone who buys consumer electronics as an investment needs to have his head examined.

Art

I don't expect my CE investments to increase in value as I would a stock. I do expect to get my money's worth in terms of use and enjoyment over time.

As an example of a bad investment, I would rate my JVC D-VHS machine. Ok quality but support for it vanished shortly after my purchase. So I didn't get enough use out of it to justify the cost.

I hope that this helps.

I don't know where i got this idea from, but i was under the impression that a good many catalog titles have been remastered in HD for HDTV syndication packages, and are pretty much just waiting in the wings.

You are right. I would be happy if I could buy just half the titles shown on all the HD channels right now. I seem to recall all the Bond titles and Star Wars titles recently and even Vertigo and Birds tonight on HDNet movies.

Interesting question. In the past, I think that customers felt they could rely on particular content providers who had announced support to continue as long as there was reasonable demand. Certainly, Beta, LD, and VHS were all given "soft landings" by their supporting providers.

This "covenant" between consumers and studios was however broken by Paramount when they unceremoniously dumped Blu-ray, which was selling 2:1 on their own titles.

I am afraid that I told all of my friends to back off from both formats until the matter was completely resolved and the surviving format a reasonable success after Paramount reneged.

So, I don't know how customers can tell that "it is safe to go into the water" anymore. When large companies can pay astronomical prices to get studios to abandon you, I just don't know.

You're a good friend.

I suggest the "buy all formats" group head over to CNET and check out a HDM player review.

The website is advising all consumers to stay away from HDM. They do not recommend buying any HDM player. Yeah, thats real healthy for HDM. I'm sure it's doing worlds of good.

If you don't take my word for it, listen to CNET or any other sane media source. There is HEAVY consumer relunctance to get into HDM due to the format war. I'm not exactly sure why so many have their heads in the sand over this issue. It really is a disturbing reluctance to accept reality.

You guys really think if the PS3 didn't do BD and the 360 didn't have an add-on, that HDM would have come as far as it has?

Your taking millions of installed players out of the picture when you discount the gamers.

Aside from HT enthusiasts, gamers are the only ones who really understand the different resolutions and buy HDM.

The original Xbox had games in 720p/1080i as early as 2002, right there on a television. Only physical media to do so at the time.
I would mention PC games, but they have been in HD for even longer and aren't always displayed on TVs.

Now if my math serves me correctly that 4 YEARS before HDM surfaced.
And you mean to tell me that those whippersnapper "gamers" aren't helping HDM take off.

You guys need some Icy/Hot and some Rolaids.

Get over it.

And as for other catalog titles give me the John Woo classics.

The Killer
Hard Boiled
Bullet In The Head
A Better Tomorrow Trilogy
Once a Thief

I would be sitting the HDM war out if I didn't own a PS2 (thus, loyal Playstation owner and Gran Turismo fan). I bought the PS3 as a game machine knowing it could play Blu-rays and if blu-ray won the format war I could continue to invest in movies. I have 15 movies (not much at all, i know), but I'm only particpating because it's a video game console.

Brandon

I would be sitting the HDM war out if I didn't own a PS2 (thus, loyal Playstation owner and Gran Turismo fan). I bought the PS3 as a game machine knowing it could play Blu-rays and if blu-ray won the format war I could continue to invest in movies. I have 15 movies (not much at all, i know), but I'm only particpating because it's a video game console.

Brandon

I think it's safe to say Blu-Ray would be in some serious trouble if it weren't for the PS3.

Anyone who buys consumer electronics as an investment needs to have his head examined.

Art

I think were getting a little hung-up on the term "investment," nobody's really talking about a return other than the ability to watch what they purchase in due time. I buy a few DVDs a week, but often don't find the time to watch them for a year or two. Some stuff you gotta buy when the buying is good, as small titles fall OOP quickly, and then the window of opportunity has closed. Not only that, indie labels survive pretty hand-to-mouth with their releases, and if you don't support them in and around the time they release, they won't be there to supply your future needs.

HDM is seen as mercenary by some, having little to do with movie appreciation, and everything to do with arbitrary planned-obsolescence, the ugliness of the format war only throws fuel on that fire. Again, these notions don't have to be rational, you don't have to agree with them, but IMO we are feeling their affect nonetheless.

It isn't just about the cost of admission to a new format, but the cost of exit from the old that weighs some down. After all if you own 750 - 1500 DVDs, you've already shown your willing to toss some major coin at your passion.

Anyone who doesn't fully understand the word investment needs a dictionary... and fast.

Investment: "A commitment, as of time or support."

Look, I think anyone on this forum knows that looking at any of the equipment ,collecting titles etc is simple not an investment in any way as the term is employed in commom usage. Pretty obvious also, judging from your posts, that you have an enormous chip on your shoulder regarding HDM and those who have adopted early for their pleasure.

Art

I don't expect my CE investments to increase in value as I would a stock. I do expect to get my money's worth in terms of use and enjoyment over time.

As an example of a bad investment, I would rate my JVC D-VHS machine. Ok quality but support for it vanished shortly after my purchase. So I didn't get enough use out of it to justify the cost.

I hope that this helps.

I used my DVHS players for years. I still occasionally use mine now. The only way to look at this is if you have the means to jump without discomfort and the pleasure derived is worth it to you then do it. If you really expect to not buy into obsolecence in electronics then you are not getting what it is.

The CE companies wanted HDM to sell black boxes since DVD players selling for $35 aren't making money for anyone. The format war has started a price war that has resulted in the obvious astronomically fast erosion of the premise.

I have the means to buy cutting edge and I enjoy it very much.At the same time I'd rather see changes slow but that is how the manufacturers are making money.

Also since this is my thread I'd appreciate it if those who want to see HDM fail, already are biased in believing that DVD is good enough or like crapping on threads move on.

Art

People seem to have short term memory. It took a while, and more than several frustrating years for the studios to really open up with the catalog product.
I can remember back in 2002 reading on boards dedicated to cult and horror films, the posters taking Warner to task for being so miserly with their classics
"Where is Omega Man? or Soylent Green? or King Kong? or Howard Hawks The Thing? Not to mention Mad Love or Val Lewton films"
At that same time, you could also not buy My Darling Clementine, Ghost And Mrs Muir, Mark Of Zorro, Laura, The Thin Man, Adventures Of Robin Hood, Treasure Of The Sierra Madre, Out Of The Past, The Monolith Monsters, Revenge Of The Creature, The Universal Hammer horrors, Moon Over Miami, Robinson Crusoe On Mars, and on and on and on.

And that was FIVE years after DVD debuted!

And I still can't go online or walk into a store and buy a copy of the Natalie Wood/Steve McQueen film Love With The Proper Stranger.

honestly- I feel your pain Art, but I think we are damn lucky to be getting the pitiful amount of catalog material that we are at the moment. The quality of material/choice of titles available a year and a half in is FAR better than it was for DVD at the same point.
Sure it could be better, but it could also be a hell of a lot worse.

Great post and you know I'm an impatient SOB.:o Thanks for the reality check .:)

Art

$400 + on an HDM player is not an investment, huh? It's just a random expense with no expectation of return (future enjoyment) I suppose.

Wrong.

Your response above - to my post below:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart
Since when has buying movies become an investment? Is anyone planning on making money by buying movies for their viewing pleasure?

They are an expense . . .pure and simple. The enjoyment you get from watching them should equal the money you spent buying them.

If not - stop making blind buys

You see the word "player" anywhere in that post?

Earlier this year, Universal claimed their Hitchcock's were scheduled for release later in 2007, yet here we are. Perhaps seeing other classics do so poorly dissuaded Uni from releasing them. Again, very frustrating.

Watched "The Birds" and "Vertigo" in HD over FiOS on HDNet MV just the past couple days and have on the DVR. I have to say they look quite good in high res and easily like a solid basis for a nice HDM release. Was there a resotoration or cleanup done for this?

If studios drag their feet though you can always consider HD TiVO along with some recording software to grab content and watch in red laser HD on your hd dvd player.

I hate to say this, but I think there is only a small group of people who will appreciate the advantage that HDM has over DVD for catalog titles. Most of my friends think I'm crazy for buying Casablanca on HDM, but the few that have actually watched it in HD are truly impressed. I think that the studios are going to have a lot more luck marketing HDM for later catalog titles (mid-60s and beyond).

Catalog titles would be fine if the studios would learn to price it right. If say Casablanca was $10-12 I would consider buying it, but theres no way I would pay $19 since I already have it on DVD.

Most BD catalog titles I have gotten have come during the BOGO sales, when surprising the average selling price was '10-12' per disc. Dropping the prices and displaying more titles at retail to sell to an ever increasing base of consumers with dedicated HDM players will inevitably increase sales for those titles.

We've just had major hardware sales and massive increases in retail inventory during the last couple weeks.

That will continue to happen as long as the size of the installed hardware base increases for both formats.

Over time more catalog sales will occur. :)

When prices get below $199, that is discretionary spending for most US households, $99 certainly is.

When HDM players are reaching the same price points the average DVD player sold reached in 2005 ($112 in USA, IIRC according to the CEA) then it becomes logical to buy one instead of a new plain old DVD or upconverting player or can be rationalized by a lot of people.

Sounds like someone should go out and buy one and find out what all the fuss is about. ;)

Can't expect much when the majority of your market is video game console players...

If HD/BD was only available via standalone, not Xbox 360 or PS3, I bet there would be a lot less tard movies.

There is a little bit of evidence that catalog titles will increase in sales when prices drop.below $19,99.

Here are some 90 days historical Amazon sales charts for some classics, notice the surge for most of them when there was the Amazon sale this month that put many of them below $14.99. Now the rankings are still low, but notice the pretty consistent jump for those eligible for discount pricing. that trend seems pretty clear as well as some increase in the rankings for most of them.

One thing to consider also as the year ends, these rankings mean more volume as they are compared to DVD sales which are also increasing in volume as the year ends.

Seems that if the price gets to $14.99 at least some people will buy some.

2001 (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8171/2001fv1.png)
Apollo 13 (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8352/apollo13qg5.png)
Casablanca (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7396/casablancahddvdsa1.png)
A Clockwork Orange (http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6345/clockworkorangezn2.png)
Excalibur (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4906/excaliburfx7.png)
Forbidden Planet (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1239/forbidplanetlu6.png)
Mutiny on the Bounty (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8207/mutinyod2.png)
Robin Hood (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5559/robinhoodbw5.png)
Rio Bravo (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1260/riobravokm4.png)
Spartacus (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5117/spartacuszw3.png)
The Searchers (http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4664/thesearchersfc3.png)
The Sting (http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/808/thestingep4.png)

charts are from hdgamedb.com as linked from High Def Digest showing the past 90 days DVD sales rankings for each title
.

If significant restoration is needed to result in a quality HD transfer I understand ,they could not recoup the investment right away. Forbidden Planet looked spectacular but was cleaned up for the fiftieth anniversary SD DVD so they had that already.

Art

I think the studios should be able to release the older titles they already remastered without investing too much additional money and it seems that this is the policy Warner has.

I do not expect a new 4k master costing a quarter of a million just for a release on HDM that will sell like a few thousand copies the year of its release but I expect the studios to use some of the stuff they have already done.

And I'd like to add my hope that more older movies are done right the next time some money is spent on a new master. That would include the likes of Lawrence of Arabia, Ben Hur and Spartacus, all of whch have some kind of HD version floating around ranging from not so hot (the first two) to really really embarassing (Spartacus).

Oliver

And as it was asked for here a few sales numbers posted some time ago earlier this year, I think those numbers were either up to late March or early April:

Blazing Saddles (BR/HD-DVD) 7436
The Searchers (BR/HD-DVD) 4299
Spartacus (HD-DVD) 2862
Casablanca (HD-DVD) 2336
Mutiny on the Bounty (HD-DVD) 643


for comparison:

Batman Begins (HD-DVD) 34313
Fifth Element (BR) 21799
Bourne Supremacy (HD-DVD) 12965
The Italian Job (BR/HD-DVD) 12399
Constantine (HD-DVD) 8289
XXX (BR) 5725
The Mummy (HD-DVD) 4052
Basic Instinct 2 (BR) 3288

As can be seen older movies, even very good ones were/are not the hottest sellers but then some of them sell surprisingly good compared to standard newer fare like XXX, Basic Instinct 2 and The Mummy. One has to take into account though that there are not too many older movies that could be considered better sellers than The Searchers and Spartacus, based on the quality and popularity of the movie on home video. I think the real problem are the underachievers like Mutiny on the Bounty. As it came out right with the first proper DVD version of the movie the small sales numbers are all the more surprising and surely disappointing for Warner and may indicate what can be expected from movies that are not that popular with the general HDM buying crowd.

All of this is for the movies priced similarly, disregarding their age. No idea how much more sales one could get with lower priced older/catalog titles.

Can't expect much when the majority of your market is video game console players...

If HD/BD was only available via standalone, not Xbox 360 or PS3, I bet there would be a lot less tard movies.

Sorry, but that's a totally asinine opinion. This demographic issue that people keep bringing up has nothing to do with "video gamer" vs. not. It has to do with the general demographic.

For example, I play a lot of video games, my bd player is a PS3, but guess what, if Forbidden Planet wasn't hddvd only, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Why? Because I enjoy great films and I love hd. My dad has always been a big film buff (especially sci fi) and home theater nut so I was brought up in that environment. I love good movies and I know quality of presentation. As was stated early in this thread, if anything, video gamers are the demographic that is most aware of the quality of HD outside of home theater enthusiasts.

There are also plenty of people (even on this forum) who own stand alone players and they will rush out and buy crap movies just because they look good. I didn't absolutely hate the Fantastic 4 movies for example. But they're not worth a purchase at $30 a pop no matter how great they look.

So, sorry to break it to you but the attempt to blame all those evil, stupid video gamers is a pointless endeavor. Instead, speak the truth and point the real problem... most people, whatever the demographic don't want to rebuy movies that they are perfectly happy with on dvd.

It's different than VHS. Unlike VHS where a consumer had to buy a specific dual format player if they wanted their old catalog, all hd players are backward compatible. And they upconvert. So, most people will spring for the brand new 2 star movie since they already own that 4 star movie they like on dvd.

The only thing that would be gained by having only standalone players is that the potential market for hdm sales would be cut substantially.

You are only comparing the pressing cost IMO - not the total production cost like authoring new menus's, cost of the Glass Master and special features (if they are there)

In general, the price of these is minimal, or can be accounted for elsewhere.

As long as a disc doesn't have extremely complicated menus/extras (PinP, etc), I'm sure a simple menu can be knocked up in very little time indeed. I know of SD DVD releases in the UK which have had pressings of c.1,000-2,000, and made money - and they all had menus.

Cost of special features? Well, the special features of The Wild Bunch HD DVD are the same as the SD version. Cost for releasing the extras on the HD DVD? NIL!

Glass master? Not massively more than SD DVD, I would imagine. Not when you can divide the difference by 1,000 or 2,000. Eg. if a HD DVD glass master costs $1,000 more than for an SD glass master, you only have to charge 50 cents per disc more for HD DVD over SD DVD, if your title sells 2,000 copies on high def.

The Wild Bunch is a "favorite" of movie owners. Always has been. Many consider it to be the greatest western made to date - almost 40 years after it's release.

You could say similar things about Casablanca - indeed, I'm sure that will be even more popular.

My main point is this (as an example).

If you want to release Fletch on HD DVD, there's a high def print out there already, and you'll also re-release it on a Spec Ed SD DVD at the same time - same extras, etc, thus spreading the cost.

I would imagine the studio won't see it as "How much will the HD DVD of Fletch cost us, and potentially make back", but rather "How much will The Fletch Project cost us, and make us back?", the project including sales to HD TV companies and a spec ed SD DVD release.

If they're making new extras and a new HD master anyway, the only additional cost for HD DVD is how much more per disc it costs to make.

As soon as you remember that they're charging $5 more for a HD DVD over the SD version, that cost soon disappears.

Steve W

Well, I'm not worried about the state of classics. Maybe I'm too much a Pollyanna optimist, but I believe the studios will release more catalog material (and "real" classics from the silents through the 50s) over time. Warner is likely to be the leader for a while.

No one has mentioned the hidef mastering process is, currently, MUCH more involved than SD DVD mastering and there are limited facilities and labour to accomplish this. At the Toronto AVSForum meet a month ago, we were informed an SD DVD project can move from producer concept to finished file shipped to the replicator in 3 to 4 days; typically it's 4 to 5 weeks for hidef.

Psychologically, being able to stand up at CES 2008 and announce HD DVD has 1 million players in homes in North America will be very important to "keep the dream alive". And I suspect that same time, next year we'll all have a much more friendly attitude toward hidef and its prospects. It's worth saying again: this is the very first Xmas for the format and even this year it's barely on the radar.

One last comment: hasn't anyone here heard of TCM (Turner Classic Movies)? The service is available in tens of millions of homes, in the US, Canada and the UK (and perhaps elsewhere). There is most definitely a taste for this kind of fare. What we need is to be a little patient as the installed base grows. Show your support of the titles that matter and vote with your wallet. I hope everyone here picks up Casablanca, if they own an HD DVD player and haven't picked it up in HD already ....

Cogent and well-thought out post! :)

Art:

Your dream is not dead at all.

One of the specific things holding back catalog sales is the lack of titles displayed at the retail level and that is dramatically changing, as we speak.

HD DVD in particular has relatively low mastering and replication costs and if a classic title is being converted to HD DVD using AVC or VC-1 and the studio is just porting over the on the shelf DVD extras the break even point is very low, in the 10,000s of units sold mark, or even less if it is being mastered in a scheduled work flow.

Alot depends on the quality of the master available, and not every catalog title will be cleanup and restoration care, but its cost effective to republish on HD DVD with only a small sales volume.

The most important thing is dramatically increasing the size of the installed hardware base so that non-blockbuster titles can be marketed to a larger market.

One of the major reasons for studios to do HDM is to resell the catalog titles, not just substitute a HD DVD or Blu-ray sale for a DVD one,on a day an date release, or ot grab some supplemental revenues from interactive features.

At current MSRP pricing, of $29.00 +, not a lot of people are going to rebuy their older DVD collections, especially if they are not displayed at brick and mortar retail shelves in inventory. But as the Blu-ray BOGO offers and Circuit City B2G1 HD DVD sales have begin to show, people will buy, non day and date releases, older previously released HD DVD tiles and older catalog titles when the effective price is $14.99 to $19.99.

For a older DVD release, whose sales are essentially dead after 180 days, or are sold for $9.99 or $4.99, a $14.99 HD DVD sale in any volume is found money for the studios and an extra $5 per unit adds up pretty quickly.

Cripes, we already have 350 plus titles for each format available and software and hardware prices are dropping and more an more retail space is being dedicated toward HDM and Wal-Mart just got in the game.

Patience, kind sir, patience. ;)

Indeed, Sir Kosty!

The whole point of a new format, for the studios, is to re-sell the catalog.

Now, will there be a windfall release of titles anytime soon? No. But I would wager that there ARE many collectors eager to upgrade their GWTW, WoOZ, ET, JP, Jaws, CK, LoA, SW and so forth.

C'mon, we're all arguing whether the Lord of the Rings trilogy ought to be theatrical or extended!:cool:

If significant restoration is needed to result in a quality HD transfer I understand ,they could not recoup the investment right away. Forbidden Planet looked spectacular but was cleaned up for the fiftieth anniversary SD DVD so they had that already.

Art

Exactly! Let the HD DVD release piggyback off the DVD release!:cool:

In general, the price of these is minimal, or can be accounted for elsewhere.

And you know this how? We were just told it takes 3 or 4 days to prepare a DVD vs. 4 to 5 weeks for an HDM.

As long as a disc doesn't have extremely complicated menus/extras (PinP, etc), I'm sure a simple menu can be knocked up in very little time indeed. I know of SD DVD releases in the UK which have had pressings of c.1,000-2,000, and made money - and they all had menus.

Do you have any idea how much it cost to transfer a film on a Telecine?

Cost of special features? Well, the special features of The Wild Bunch HD DVD are the same as the SD version. Cost for releasing the extras on the HD DVD? NIL

What about the cost of transferring the SD features into HD? No cost? Are you sure?

Glass master? Not massively more than SD DVD, I would imagine. Not when you can divide the difference by 1,000 or 2,000. Eg. if a HD DVD glass master costs $1,000 more than for an SD glass master, you only have to charge 50 cents per disc more for HD DVD over SD DVD, if your title sells 2,000 copies on high def.

You are throwing around numbers with no idea of the real cost involved. You are trying to make the numbers fit your argument - without any facts.

If they're making new extras and a new HD master anyway, the only additional cost for HD DVD is how much more per disc it costs to make.

That is based on the number of discs sold - Failure to Launch had 1000 - for two formats.

As soon as you remember that they're charging $5 more for a HD DVD over the SD version, that cost soon disappears.

Steve W

And how much of that $5.00 will the studio get?

That's nit picking, and you know it.

Last year, a couple of players in both formats managed to be released and there were very few titles in both formats. You didn't find players or discs on shelves in all major retailers nationwide.

This year, we have a genuine roll-out with Wal-Mart, Sears, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City and Amazon all with significant presence in their respective shelf space -- relative to market size. We also have the studios bringing out some "gift type" content and doing serious some marketing push -- national advertising, Disney's Blu-ray Magical Tour in malls, etc.

Indeed. Every year a handful of "art" pictures, hopeful of being nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture, are released in LA and NYC during the week between Christmas and New York so that they qualify for being released in that calendar year. So, technically, a film released that way in three weeks WILL be a 2007 release. But, practically, it is a 2008 release.;)

They didn't care about new releases, right? Only old movies they already owned on VHS? The mere fact the players were cheap and a bunch of old movies were available sold them? Nope. The fact they knew that NEW RELEASES were guaranteed on DVD sold them, not silent movies from the 20's.

The future was secure with DVD before the masses jumped in. If people believed there was a chance studios would bail on DVD, it wouldn't have grown NEARLY as quickly as it did. End of story.

There is ZERO guaranteed future value with either Blu-Ray or HD DVD, unless your definition of value is collecting 250 movies you hate and watching them over and over with no new releases. You need to accept that reality. It's simple, really.

Do you have either format? If so, then I'd sell it if I were you.:rolleyes:

Anyone who buys consumer electronics as an investment needs to have his head examined.

Art


In all fairness, it appears that Robohump is using the term to indicate his expenditure of money in return for the enjoyment of his library.

I't not too uncommon to hear people say, "I invested in a pair of nice speakers for my system.", no?

I was wondering after the poor showing of Casablanca,Forbidden Planet, Star Trek and others is my dream of seeing thousands of great catalog titles on HDM dead in the water. I feared the demographics early on when I saw that films like Stealth, which stunk worse than my feces after thanksgiving ,did well among the HDM buying public. Additionally ,the statistics that seventy percent of all commercial theater tickets are sold to teen girls added fuel to the fire.

This would be a major bummer for me since I don't see enough recent releases to keep me happy in my theater. I guess I could hope that gradually things change to allow better sales of the great older films but it doesn't look good ,at least in the near term.

Art
I'm with you Art. I bought into both formats because of their large catalogs of older releases. Lately, I've found myself interested in fewer and fewer titles coming out on both formats. At this rate, my purchasing will slow down to a trickle (or stop completely) by January.
J

Since when has buying movies become an investment? Is anyone planning on making money by buying movies for their viewing pleasure?

They are an expense . . .pure and simple. The enjoyment you get from watching them should equal the money you spent buying them.

If not - stop making blind buys.:p

Indeed. What about the money spent taking a family to see ENCHANTED?

There's $20-$60 bucks. Once you've seen the movie, you've seen the movie. It was an experience, a night out, a family adventure. It sure as hell wasn't an investment. A meal at McDonalds or Thomas Keller's Per Se is just that: a meal, not an investment that will pay off down through the years.

Talk to me in 2107 about whether you "wasted" your money in HDM.

In all fairness, it appears that Robohump is using the term to indicate his expenditure of money in return for the enjoyment of his library.

I't not too uncommon to hear people say, "I invested in a pair of nice speakers for my system.", no?

Dictionary.com:

An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an investment is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or appreciate and be sold at a higher price.

DEFINITELY the wrong word to use in conjunction with CE products or movies.

Lee, first of all, thanks for the chat.

Do you have any idea how much it cost to transfer a film on a Telecine?

How much is not the issue. How much SD costs vs how much extra HD costs is the issue.

I know that creating an SD telecine isn't massively expensive, because I know of small companies making small production runs of films on DVD.

Also, and maybeyou've missed this, but my point was you haveto take into account how much money this new telecine copy will gain you from sources other than the DVD/HD DVD release (TV compaines, etc).

But let me give you an example. A couple of years ago a very small Cult DVD company re-released a special edition of Zombie Flesh Eaters on SD DVD. They made a high def master, with no certainty it'd ever get a high def release. My point is, most films re-released in re-mastered special edition these days have a high def master made.

In other words, you can't just say "A high def master wil cost $x,000" and think of it as a cost which will have to be born solely by the HD DVD release.

What about the cost of transferring the SD features into HD? No cost? Are you sure?

Firstly, I never said 'no cost'. Secondly, many extras on HD DVDs are in SD. My point is, if a studio is asking itself whether it's worthwhile to release (as my example) Fletch on HD DVD, it needn't say "We can't do it - it'd cost too much to put the extras in high def". If that's the case, just leave the extras in SD.

You are throwing around numbers with no idea of the real cost involved. You are trying to make the numbers fit your argument - without any facts.

Lee, I'd love someone to post the costs. HD DVD v SD glass master, etc. Any ideas who'd know?

And how much of that $5.00 will the studio get?

Dunno. But I bet it's more than 50 cents.

If you can answer, or find anyone from theinsiders thread to answer the above questions, I'd be as interested as you.

Cheers.

Steve W

I hate to say this, but I think there is only a small group of people who will appreciate the advantage that HDM has over DVD for catalog titles. Most of my friends think I'm crazy for buying Casablanca on HDM, but the few that have actually watched it in HD are truly impressed. I think that the studios are going to have a lot more luck marketing HDM for later catalog titles (mid-60s and beyond).

I'm sure this is true based on the age of the consumers. I have ,however, developed a taste for movies older than me.

I think Darin Perrigo was the one who said that he thought that The Wizard of Oz would likely sell pretty well but ,of course, it is in color.

I understand that it is a tough row to hoe but, as a few have mentioned, as the install base grows and the users get more divserse, we may still see even older films like the hundreds of film noire greats from the thirties, forties and fifties.

Art

Steve:

There is someone here at AVS that could help us with the issue of transferring films. His name is Mr. D and I believe that is what he does for a living. I will send him a PM and ask him to join us on this thread to see if he can help. He has been VERY helpful in the past with questions regarding this issue.

As far as the replication costs - no one here seems to work at a plant or is famaliar with the costs involved so we may have to wait on this issue

Regards

Lee

Interesting question. In the past, I think that customers felt they could rely on particular content providers who had announced support to continue as long as there was reasonable demand. Certainly, Beta, LD, and VHS were all given "soft landings" by their supporting providers.

This "covenant" between consumers and studios was however broken by Paramount when they unceremoniously dumped Blu-ray, which was selling 2:1 on their own titles.

I am afraid that I told all of my friends to back off from both formats until the matter was completely resolved and the surviving format a reasonable success after Paramount reneged.

So, I don't know how customers can tell that "it is safe to go into the water" anymore. When large companies can pay astronomical prices to get studios to abandon you, I just don't know.

Get over it, already!!! Paramount reneged when it went neutral. Have you actually read the new rules here? Man, this is soooo tiresome. Needle HD DVD here, needle HD DVD there. You can't just let it go, can you? Just about everyone on this forum has made an effort to be civil, but you come back here and resurrect some old "bones of contention" - nice going!

There's really no excuse for anyone actually interested in movies and quality not to have both formats with the value of the movies being given away with a player being equal to or worth more than than what the player costs. Players are now under $200.00 with "free" movies.

If the catalogue titles were cheaper I'd buy more. I bought a few BD titles when they were 2 for 1 - the price was right. Part of the problem is that we're spoiled - most people on this planet are lucky to get enough to eat and have decent shelter while we complain we don't have enough content for our latest audio/video formats. Most of us have absolutely no idea how fortunate we are. We need to put this conversation in context - most people stumbling onto this forum would read this stuff and think we were a bunch of crybabies (and obviously a few, just a few, are)!

Cheers,

Grant

I'm sure this is true based on the age of the consumers. I have ,however, developed a taste for movies older than me.

I think Darin Perrigo was the one who said that he thought that The Wizard of Oz would likely sell pretty well but ,of course, it is in color.

I understand that it is a tough row to hoe but, as a few have mentioned, as the install base grows and the users get more divserse, we may still see even older films like the hundreds of film noire greats from the thirties, forties and fifties.

Art

I bought into laserdisc in it's last 4 years or so, I simply didn't have the scratch before, and the internet made LD shopping more practical. At that time LD was as much a high-quality catalog-collector's gauge as it was a mainstream format, in fact that's what drew me out of the woodwork to begin with. The clincher was LBX prints of scope horror foreign, and sci-fi films from the 50's, 60's, and 70's that I'd only seen in lousy, cropped, Orion VHS.

So I think not only is the catalog potential there, but the backwards compatibility, lower prices, and convenience of HD will eventually prevail among catalog buyers.

Someones mentioned MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY as a catalog failure, well, in truth the 60's MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY is not even regarded as the best version of that film, many think Brando just never fit into it. I have yet to snap this one up (though I still may), and I think Warner should have known this wasn't a title off the "sure-fire" A-list of catalog titles. If they're serious about sales, toss WIZARD OF OZ, GONE WITH THE WIND or SINGING IN THE RAIN out there.

Just for fun , I wonder if some of you would post catalog titles you would love to see. Maybe a list of titles you would want and another for ones you feel that ,realistically, we may see in the next few years.

Art

I think the problem with releasing older catalog titles is the format war. Most of what is currently released between both formats is closely compared. It seems HD DVD has released more older catalog titles and Blu-ray leans more toward a younger gamer crowd. When comparing an old title with older audio tracks against new titles such as Crank it then skews overall comparisons to see lowering audio reviews for these older movies etc...

One older title that I would appriecate would be: The Vikings

Just for fun , I wonder if some of you would post catalog titles you would love to see. Maybe a list of titles you would want and another for ones you feel that ,realistically, we may see in the next few years.

Art

Art - it would be nice to do this - I can think of 10 or 20 right off the bat - but don't we open up the can of worms of discussing movies - and who likes what?

Under a ground rule like the Nielsen thread - you could make your list and no discussion about the lists - that would work IMO. But all would have to agree with it or it doesn't work.

Lee,
I understand. Just for example films like When Worlds Collide would be fantastic but realistically will not be any time soon, Asphalt Jungle a great film noire won't either. Alternatively, The Maltese Falcon or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre have more chance of seeing the light of day in HDM I bet.

Art

Lee,
I understand. Just for example films like When Worlds Collide would be fantastic but realistically will not be any time soon, Asphalt Jungle a great film noire won't either. Alternatively, The Maltese Falcon or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre have more chance of seeing the light of day in HDM I bet.

Art
Well - what the hell - let's give it a shot!:cool:

Around The World In Eighty Days - And for once - do it right! (1080x30P)*
The Sound of Music
South Pacific
The Alamo
Cleopatra
Oklahoma!
Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines
West Side Story
Lawrence of Arabia
Ice Station Zebra
Mackenna's Gold
Tron
Khartoum
It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World
Ben Hur
Cheyenne Autumn
My Fair Lady

I have a passion for 70mm movies:D

* Show everyone what judderless video looks like when sourced from a movie. This was filmed at 30FPS - if the original Camera Negative exists.

Just for fun , I wonder if some of you would post catalog titles you would love to see. Maybe a list of titles you would want and another for ones you feel that ,realistically, we may see in the next few years.

Art

I'll give it a shot, but there are far too many titles to list them all.

In no particular order:

1. Lawrence of Arabia
2. Star Wars Saga (with the OT available in both original and special edition versions)
3. Gone With The Wind
4. Way of the Gun
5. Wizard of Oz
6. Jason and the Argonauts
7. Se7en
8. Fight Club
9. Citizen Kane
10. Psycho (original, not the horrible re-make)
11. The Great Gatsby
12. Indiana Jones saga (all four, once the new one comes out)
13. Rear Window
14. Sin City
15. LOTR Trilogy
16. The Killing
17. Dr. Strangelove
18. The Princess Bride
19. Pulp Fiction
20. Clerks
21. Jackie Brown
22. Double Indemnity
23. Maltese Falcon (forgotten until I saw Art's post.)
24. Ben Hur (forgotten until I saw Lee's post.)
25. The Godfather Trilogy


Okay, I have to stop or I'll be here all day. Bottom line - I want a ton of catalog titles.

As to what I expect to be released? I'm not going to risk "jinxing" the releases. :D

I'll keep it to a scant 20


The Hunger
Vertigo
The Haunting
Suspiria
Rosemary's Baby
Kwadian
ZOMBIE
Picnic On Hanging Rock
Once Upon A Time In The West
Wizard Of OZ
Jason & The Argonauts
Lawrence of Arabia
The Passion Of Joan Of Arch
Black Narcissus
Cries And Whispers
Fellini Satyricon
Invasion Of The Body Snatchers
Snow White
Gone With The Wind
Nashville
Horror of Dracula (BFI restoration)

Is this a wish list for all catalog titles or just classical titles?

Ok, I'll bite. Art you said catalog not classic. In no particular order and just taking a couple of minutes while I'm eating lunch. I'm sure I could come up with 100s more...

A Christmas Carol
Andromeda Strain
Beau Geste
Ben Hur
Braveheart
Breaker Morant
Charge of the Light Brigade
Cool Hand Luke (yay supposedly in works)
Cromwell
El Cid
Exodus
For Whom The Bell Tolls
Galaxy Quest
Gladiator
Gone With the Wind
Highlander (yes this is a guilty pleasure of mine)
Ivanhoe
Lady Jane
Last of the Mohicans
Lion of the Desert
Masada
Objective Burma
Papillion
Ran
Robin and Marian
Rob Roy
Schindler's List
Seven Samurai
Shawshank Redemption
Ten Commandments
The Pianist
The Alamo (both John Wayne and 2004 versions)
The Sea Hawk
The Warlord
The Warriors (Flynn as the Black Prince)
The Wild Geese
War and Peace
Waterloo (full version)
Wizard of Oz
Zulu
Zulu Dawn


Civil War:
Red Badge of Courage
Glory
Gettysburg


WWI:
All Quiet on the Western Front (both versions)
Gallipoli
Lawrence of Arabia
Sergeant York
The Blue Max


WWII:
A Bridge Too Far
Battle of Britain
Bridge at Remagen
Bridge on the River Kwai
Cockleshell Heroes
Come and See (Russian)
Cross of Iron
Das Boot
Die Brucke (German)
From Here to Eternity
In Harms Way
Macarthur
Memphis Belle
Midway
Patton
Sands of Iwo Jima
Saving Private Ryan
Stalingrad (2 German versions - these are not Enemy at The Gates)
The Longest Day
The Winter War (Finnish)
The Young Lions
To Hell & Back
Tora Tora Tora
Tuskegee Airmen
Twelve O'clock High

Sets:
Back to the Future
Dirty Harry
Godfather
Hitchcock
Indiana Jones
Trek


Series:
Rat Patrol
Combat (pre syndicated full length only)
Hogan's Heroes
TNG
DS9
ST TOS seasons 2 and yes 3 of course :)

Some titles within these sets would be catalog:
Sharpe
Horatio Hornblower

Just for fun , I wonder if some of you would post catalog titles you would love to see. Maybe a list of titles you would want and another for ones you feel that ,realistically, we may see in the next few years.

Art


Hitchcock titles might be fun.
Dial M for Murder
Wait Until Dark

I'll play. In no particular order:
The Big Sleep
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
The Long Goodbye
The Lion in Winter
8 1/2
McCabe & Mrs. Miller
High Sierra
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
Young Frankenstien
Chinatown

Since 2.35:1 (and wider) AR movies are the ones that take the biggest resolution hit with standard def- those are the ones I want to see given priority.
and since someone started doing 'wish-lists'...

Walkabout
Jean de Florette/ Manon Of The Spring
Ben-Hur
Days Of Heaven
The Towering Inferno
Planet Of The Apes (orig)
Soylent Green
Bridge On The River Kwai
Lawrence Of Arabia
The Professionals
Badlands
Peyton Place
Oklahoma!
The Great Escape
Black Narcissus
The Seven Year Itch
Paint Your Wagon
Ryans Daughter

I recently picked up the Criterion Days Of Heaven and it was a big disappointment. Quite a lot of edge halos anytime anyone or anything is seen against the sky...which is about half the run time. This, and all the other Malick films would look sublime in HD.

Hitchcock titles might be fun.
Dial M for Murder
Wait Until Dark

WAIT UNTIL DARK!

Definitely!

Steve W

These are some of my favorites from the past

-Godfather 1 and 2 and to be complete, I would love to have a version that combined Godfather 1 and 2 in a linear time line (was that Godfather saga?) If that means having to tolerate Godfather 3, so be it.
-Sergio Leone Anthology including Once Upon a Time in America and Once Upon a Time in the West, A Fistful of Dollars, For a Few Dollars More, and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, My Name is Nobody.
-James Bond Collection
-Cinema Paradiso
-John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness and Big Trouble in Little China
-Fearless Vampire Killers
-Benhur
-Ten Commandments
-Tora, Tora, Tora and Midway
-Amadeus

From Hong Kong and China
-John Woo collection including The Killer, Hard Boiled, and For a Better Tomorrow
-Swordsman 1 and 2
-A Chinese Ghost Story
-Once Upon a Time in China Trilogy
-Anything from Wong Kar Wai (especially In the Mood for Love)
-Armor of God 1 and 2

From Korea

-A Bittersweet Life
-Park Chan Wook's Revenge Triology (Oldboy is already out)

I was reading the insiders thread at Blu-ray.com and seem to remember paidgeek, the former AVS insider at spe, mentioning how hard they were working on Lawerence of Arabia. It seems that sony has dedicated a lot of time and enfort into this new HD transfer. I for one would pick this title up in a heart beat. After reading about how seriously sony is taking this transfer i have high hopes. Supposedly they have taken so long getting it out do to a desire for the Highest quality. I found paidgeek to be pretty well informed in the past so i am definitly excited about LOA.

No particular order

1. Dirty Harry Series
2. Gladiator
3. Braveheart
4. Star Wars
5. Lord of the Rings
6. The Viking
7. Saving Private Ryan
8. Band of Brothers
9. When Trumpets Fade
10. Indiana Jones
11. Jurassic Park
12. Enemy at the Gates
13. In the Name of the Father
14. The Devil’s own
15. The Great Escape
16. Platoon
17. Patton
18. Biloxi Blues
19. E.T.
20. Heartbreak Ridge

WAIT UNTIL DARK!

Definitely!

Steve W

Great "jump factor"!

Steve:

There is someone here at AVS that could help us with the issue of transferring films. His name is Mr. D and I believe that is what he does for a living. I will send him a PM and ask him to join us on this thread to see if he can help. He has been VERY helpful in the past with questions regarding this issue.

As far as the replication costs - no one here seems to work at a plant or is famaliar with the costs involved so we may have to wait on this issue

Regards

Lee

I'm actually a compositor/vfx supervisor so I don't have any real telecine experience beyond knowing a bit about how it impacts my particular part of the production chain.

Exact costs I couldn't help with: generally speaking the mastering stages are packaged together although its common for the scanning and grading to be done by different companies, encoding authoring and duplication are all normally handled by different companies but again its often rolled together as package with multiple companies and individuals subcontracted in by a single point of contact for the client.

I'm not even sure what scanning costs per frame are these days ( I remember it being about $1.50 less than 10 years ago) or whether its even costed in that fashion any more , and there are all sort of sweeteners and discounts for loyal customers.

Then you get the fact the video mastering is often part and parcel of the DI process.

Anything that takes time costs more that's for sure.

Many companies have rate cards available but its rare for that to be the actual price a client pays what with competition.

Me Julie has yet to come down.

Steve W

Mr.D, many thanks.

As with all things HD, it looks pretty complex.

Steve W


I'm actually a compositor/vfx supervisor so I don't have any real telecine experience beyond knowing a bit about how it impacts my particular part of the production chain.

Exact costs I couldn't help with: generally speaking the mastering stages are packaged together although its common for the scanning and grading to be done by different companies, encoding authoring and duplication are all normally handled by different companies but again its often rolled together as package with multiple companies and individuals subcontracted in by a single point of contact for the client.

I'm not even sure what scanning costs per frame are these days ( I remember it being about $1.50 less than 10 years ago) or whether its even costed in that fashion any more , and there are all sort of sweeteners and discounts for loyal customers.

Then you get the fact the video mastering is often part and parcel of the DI process.

Anything that takes time costs more that's for sure.

Many companies have rate cards available but its rare for that to be the actual price a client pays what with competition.

Yes no order and titles I think are realistic to hope for..

Ben Hur
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
The Big Sleep
Patton
Malteese Falcon
Dirty Harry
Wizard of Oz
Rear Window
Papillion
The Great Escape
Das Boot
42nd St
Dr No
Goldfinger
The Ten Commandments
Thunderball

...Days Of Heaven...

I recently picked up the Criterion Days Of Heaven and it was a big disappointment. Quite a lot of edge halos anytime anyone or anything is seen against the sky...which is about half the run time. This, and all the other Malick films would look sublime in HD.

Have you viewed the standard DVD release of this title? I'd like to know how the two compare.

ok, I'm a serious sucker for anything Hitchcock, Blake Evans and a movie with Cary Grant in it :)

I'd go pink neutral for Operation Petticoat ;)

There is a little bit of evidence that catalog titles will increase in sales when prices drop.below $19,99.

Here are some 90 days historical Amazon sales charts for some classics, notice the surge for most of them when there was the Amazon sale this month that put many of them below $14.99. Now the rankings are still low, but notice the pretty consistent jump for those eligible for discount pricing. that trend seems pretty clear as well as some increase in the rankings for most of them.

One thing to consider also as the year ends, these rankings mean more volume as they are compared to DVD sales which are also increasing in volume as the year ends.

Seems that if the price gets to $14.99 at least some people will buy some.

2001 (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8171/2001fv1.png)
Apollo 13 (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8352/apollo13qg5.png)
Casablanca (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7396/casablancahddvdsa1.png)
A Clockwork Orange (http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6345/clockworkorangezn2.png)
Excalibur (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4906/excaliburfx7.png)
Forbidden Planet (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1239/forbidplanetlu6.png)
Mutiny on the Bounty (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8207/mutinyod2.png)
Robin Hood (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5559/robinhoodbw5.png)
Rio Bravo (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1260/riobravokm4.png)
Spartacus (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5117/spartacuszw3.png)
The Searchers (http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4664/thesearchersfc3.png)
The Sting (http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/808/thestingep4.png)

charts are from hdgamedb.com as linked from High Def Digest showing the past 90 days DVD sales rankings for each title
.

Sorry I missed this before. This is indeed encouraging based on the relatively small install base.

Lets hope that pricing will help drive a general move toward more catalog titles.

I'll play.

First off, I wanted virtually every movie that everyone has already mentioned as I have most of them already on standard DVD now. :D

But I want to double dip them on HDM!

I'll add the following I want to watch in HD DVD or Blu-ray (including some that just got released ;)).

Some classic war movies off the top of my head:

The Sand Pebbles
Von Ryan's Express
The Long Ships
The Vikings
Waterloo
Tora Tora Tora
Midway
The Wind and the Lion
The Guns of Navarone
Force 10 from Navarone
Where Eagles Dare
Battle of Britain
The Battle of the Bulge (out now)
Patton

and
Metropolis (newly restored version)

Kosty:

Are you an Allistar MacLean lover? My favorite author of all time. He could really tell a story. Been reading his books for over 45 years. I have all of them in hardcover.

Interesting that one of them - Fear Is The Key was made into a movie but I have never seen it on TV or Video.

Sorry I missed this before. This is indeed encouraging based on the relatively small install base.

Lets hope that pricing will help drive a general move toward more catalog titles.
Yep.

Plus some of those earlier sales volumes were when the installed base of HD DVD owners was way smaller , and they also were from published Nielsen/Videoscan first alert numbers which did not capture a lot of small retailers that sold to the early adopters.

For example, Value Electronics (DTV Tivo Dealer) sold a lot of HD DVD players to AVS members and other first adopters and he sold a lot of HD DVD catalog titles along with them. Not a one of them shows up in the Nielsen/Videoscan numbers and and other smaller A/V stores that sold a lot of the 1st gen and HD XA2s also sold a lot of HD DVD software to enthusiasts.

Back in March , even some numbers showed 5000 copies sold of some classics when the installed base of HD DVD owners was 100,000 to 150,000 units. Selling something to 1/20 or 1/30 of eligible owners aint that bad. ;)

Kosty:

Are you an Allistar MacLean lover? My favorite author of all time. He could really tell a story. Been reading his books for over 45 years. I have all of them in hardcover.

Interesting that one of them - Fear Is The Key was made into a movie but I have never seen it on TV or Video. Would watch any of them.

Good stories and a lot were done right when they got filmed.

Forgot, Ice Station Zebra. :D

Would watch any of them.

Good stories and a lot were done right when they got filmed.

Forgot, Ice Station Zebra. :D

:D - OOPS! We agree to disagree!

You didn't like Ernest Borgnaine as the Russian spy or Rock Hudson as the sub captain? :eek:

I'd like to see The Time Machine as well. Not the remake, but the original 1960 version.

You didn't like Ernest Borgnaine as the Russian spy or Rock Hudson as the sub captain? :eek:

I enjoyed the movie very much - it was for the most part - loyal to the book. You said "forget" which means to me . . "skip it." so I disagreed with you.

Where Eagles Dare was written first as a screen play - then as a book - that is why the book is an exact copy of the movie.

I enjoyed the movie very much - it was for the most part - loyal to the book. You said "forget" which means to me . . "skip it." so I disagreed with you.
Actually, he said "forgot" - as in, he forgot to list it.

Agree with many lists.

But guys come on ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK!!!!! that would rock!!

Bring Snake to HDM!!!!

I think if Criterion would enter the ring it ferret out a buttload of movie buffs. They already list for $39.00 on average, and id rather be getting HD for that price, actually it may hurt them not to go HD after a point if serious film collectors start getting a taste for HD.

Just off the top of my head I'd snap up

M
The Third Man
Black Narcissus
Beauty & The Beast
Kwadian
Cries & Whispers
Wild Strawberries
Nights of Cabiria
Passion Of Joan Of Arch
Peeping Tom
Tales of Hoffman
Onibaba
Carnival of Souls
Children of Paradise
8 1/2

I think if Criterion would enter the ring it ferret out a buttload of movie buffs. They already list for $39.00 on average, and id rather be getting HD for that price, actually it may hurt them not to go HD after a point if serious film collectors start getting a taste for HD.

Just off the top of my head I'd snap up

M
The Third Man
Black Narcissus
Beauty & The Beast
Kwadian
Cries & Whispers
Wild Strawberries
Nights of Cabiria
Passion Of Joan Of Arch
Peeping Tom
Tales of Hoffman
Onibaba
Carnival of Souls
Children of Paradise
8 1/2

I had never seen M before a few weeks ago. I just wish that they had a dub option. Interesting aspect ratio (1.19:1).

Art

Actually, he said "forgot" - as in, he forgot to list it.

Son of Gun - you are correct - thank you for bringing that to my attention. I really need to get new reading glasses!:o

So Art:

Did you ever pick up Bullitt?

I had never seen M before a few weeks ago. I just wish that they had a dub option. Interesting aspect ratio (1.19:1).

Art

Art, shame on you!:eek:

I think M was done in the "talkie" window when they used to shoot different versions of the same film in multiple languages. Not sure if it was done for M, or if it exists, BLUE ANGEL does.

Anyway, shame on you!:eek:

Get over it, already!!! Paramount reneged when it went neutral. Have you actually read the new rules here? Man, this is soooo tiresome. Needle HD DVD here, needle HD DVD there. You can't just let it go, can you? Just about everyone on this forum has made an effort to be civil, but you come back here and resurrect some old "bones of contention" - nice going!

There's really no excuse for anyone actually interested in movies and quality not to have both formats with the value of the movies being given away with a player being equal to or worth more than than what the player costs. Players are now under $200.00 with "free" movies.

If the catalogue titles were cheaper I'd buy more. I bought a few BD titles when they were 2 for 1 - the price was right. Part of the problem is that we're spoiled - most people on this planet are lucky to get enough to eat and have decent shelter while we complain we don't have enough content for our latest audio/video formats. Most of us have absolutely no idea how fortunate we are. We need to put this conversation in context - most people stumbling onto this forum would read this stuff and think we were a bunch of crybabies (and obviously a few, just a few, are)!

Cheers,

Grant

I responded to this thread because I thought it was a very serious issue: under what conditions will we see catalog titles?

Just this weekend 10 Hitchcock films from Universal appeared on HDNet Movies. Universal had said early this year that they would ship them this year, but last summer they changed their mind and said that demand was not enough. So I get them basically for nothing but cannot pay for them on disk.

These Hitchcock titles (properly done) are exactly the kind of titles that would persuade me to buy HD DVD, as you suggest that I do. I would be happy to support both format if there were a large number of classics available. [Actually, I almost bought HD DVD last fall to get Spartacus until I read the reviews that said the Criterion version--which I have--is better. Why bother?]

As to my comments about Paramount, they were meant to be format-neutral. I have never approved of studio exclusivity and we should all decry a studio's abandoning a format that is viable. This sort of action has destabilized the market and driven many people away because they rightly do not trust the vendors to follow through.

I further believe that this is very directly related to the question at hand about classic titles. Customers who are likely to buy classics (generally older, non-video-game oriented) are simply walking away from the format war and confusion.

I am sorry if you misunderstood my post, which I believe to be within the rules. I don't care which format wins as I have said many times.

Since my post has not seemed to be especially welcome, I will refrain from posting more.

Cheers.

I'll play.

First off, I wanted virtually every movie that everyone has already mentioned as I have most of them already on standard DVD now. :D

But I want to double dip them on HDM!

I'll add the following I want to watch in HD DVD or Blu-ray (including some that just got released ;)).

Some classic war movies off the top of my head:

The San Pebbles
Von Ryan's Express
The Long Ships
The Vikings
Waterloo
Tora Tora Tora
Midway
The Wind and the Lion
The Guns of Navarone
Force 10 from Navarone
Where Eagles Dare
Battle of Britain
The Battle of the Bulge (out now)
Patton

and
Metropolis (newly restored version)


Oh, Daddy! Are we on the same page or what?

I'm a giant sucker for WWII movies. I about wet myself when I Tivoed the HD Kelly's Heroes! Where Eagles Dare? Yes!

Kosty:

Are you an Allistar MacLean lover? My favorite author of all time. He could really tell a story. Been reading his books for over 45 years. I have all of them in hardcover.

Interesting that one of them - Fear Is The Key was made into a movie but I have never seen it on TV or Video.

Damn, what's the title.......? The Java Head book?

And do you just love it that the hero from The Guns of Navarone sets off on the Force Ten From Navarone adventure hours after the first book ends!:D

Isn't a young Anthony Hopkins in Bear Island?

So Art:

Did you ever pick up Bullitt?

The gigantic bonus is the HD documentary on editing--which has clips in HD from many of the films we're mentioning here!:D

I would like to add two VERY good WWII films:

1. When Trumpets Fade
2. Hell Is For Heros

Please explaine how VHS was "secure" at the time the masses chose DVD.VHS was totally secure at the time the masses adopted DVD. The masses could have continued to rent their movies for years and years without ever investing a penny in additional hardware. Don't forget the masses rent... not buy.

i wanna see in hdm, the superb, imo, 'where eagles dare', but i see kosty beat me to listing it.:D

i have yet to see 'ice station zebra', what better way to see it for 1st time than in hd!

VHS was totally secure at the time the masses adopted DVD. The masses could have continued to rent their movies for years and years without ever investing a penny in additional hardware. Don't forget the masses rent... not buy.

Can I rent Spiderman 3 on VHS? Can I rent any new release on VHS? Anything? I haven't seen a VHS in a Blockbuster for 2 years now.

How is that secure? Please explain that to me.

The masses were right, those who claim VHS was a futureproof secure format are wrong.

I would like to add two VERY good WWII films:

1. When Trumpets Fade
2. Hell Is For Heros

TomsHT beat you to the punch on When Trumpets Fade. ;)

Any takers for Big Red One (I like it but some folks don't)?

I shall go through my WW2 collection to see if any good ones are missing. I have some other foreign WW2 flicks that are quite good such as Ambush (Finnish) and El Alamein (Italian).

I personally would get Captain Corelli's Mandolin. A better film than Windtalkers, but I know many people dont like this one either.

Can I rent Spiderman 3 on VHS? Can I rent any new release on VHS? Anything? I haven't seen a VHS in a Blockbuster for 2 years now.

How is that secure? It's not secure.

The masses were right, those who claim VHS was a futureproof secure format are wrong.What difference in the world does it make whether you can rent a movie on VHS or not? None. Secure does not equal forever.

It was totally secure for the masses since they didn't have to spend a penny to keep renting their movies. You can't get any more secure than investing nothing!

By the way who said VHS was futureproof? DVD certainly isn't.

Can I rent Spiderman 3 on VHS? Can I rent any new release on VHS? Anything? I haven't seen a VHS in a Blockbuster for 2 years now.

How is that secure? Please explain that to me.

The masses were right, those who claim VHS was a futureproof secure format are wrong.


I thought for a minute that you were serious.:D

Art

$400 + on an HDM player is not an investment, huh? It's just a random expense with no expectation of return (future enjoyment) I suppose.



It's a $400 HD player with no guarantee of how long it will be supported with software.... Except, I paid $1300 for my BD player:D I hope it lasts longer than a couple years....but if not, I am sure there will be some other HD media device to 'invest' in:D

My BD player is not an investment for me...it's a toy.

What difference in the world does it make whether you can rent a movie on VHS or not? None. Secure does not equal forever.

It was totally secure for the masses since they didn't have to spend a penny to keep renting their movies. You can't get any more secure than investing nothing!

By the way who said VHS was futureproof? DVD certainly isn't.

The discussion was concerning when the masses adopted DVD. They adopted it once future value was guaranteed. By the time the masses adopted DVD, it was clear they would be getting 5+ years of value (which INCLUDES NEW RELEASES wekk after week after week). With the way things are going, it looks like they will get 10+ years... easily.

What can HDM offer me? 6 months? 12 months?

Let's see what happens to Blu-Ray if tomorrow morning every major studio announced they would never release another Blu-Ray movie... ever. They all announced they were abandoning Blu-Ray completely.

In your world, do people keep buying Blu-Ray players? In my world, production on Blu-Ray players stops overnight and you don't see a single unit in any major retail outlet 3 months from now.

It's all about future value. The future value ain't there with either HDM format. Either one could be dead and burried 12 months from now. Once the format war is over, all studios jump on board one format, and sales numbers slowly rise month after month, future value will be guaranteed and the masses (those who own HDTV anyway) will jump in.

So it is written and so it shall be done.

It's a $400 HD player with no guarantee of how long it will be supported with software.... Except, I paid $1300 for my BD player:D I hope it lasts longer than a couple years....but if not, I am sure there will be some other HD media device to 'invest' in:D

My BD player is not an investment for me...it's a toy.

And there's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just that the masses are not going to buy in until some reasonable future value is guaranteed.

I think the actual investment formula is something close to this...

( Player Cost + Media Cost + Rental Cost ) / ( Number of Hours of Enjoyment * Amount of Enjoyment ) = Is It Worth It

There is nothing more dead than DVHS but the Is It Worth It answer was more than a yes for me. However it helped that I sold my two decks and all of the movies. :)

I think the actual investment formula is something close to this...

( Player Cost + Media Cost + Rental Cost ) / ( Number of Hours of Enjoyment * Amount of Enjoyment ) = Is It Worth It



I can sign on to that. Now we have to agree on how to measure units of enjoyment :)

Just an interesting aside re: "investment"-

While most CE devices depreciate rather quickly, if you are a good shopper with prudent timing, you can readily break even or even make money on your CE devices and media.

As an example, I bought an RP82 DVD/DVD-A player in Fall 2002 from J&R for $199, their regular price By 2004-2005, it was going for $300 or more used on the Videogon's of the world, due to its legendary quality and price/performance. I sold it a little later after the RP82 bubble burst, only "losing" about $50 after 4 years or more of use.

Another example- in the early 90's I made the Bose Mistake (I know, I know, but everyone has a bad BM once in a while :D), buying into the Acoustimass setup for a Dolby Pro Logic/LD HT.

After realizing the mistake a few years later, I was able to sell the Acoustimass for about what I paid, thanks to the same Bose marketing that suckered a relative noobie in ;).

I've also found that quality speakers, if purchased carefully, retain their value much better and longer than most other A/V equipment- kind of like a rare DVD or video that goes out of print- the value can actually increase. There are always discriminating HT enthusiasts who "know the good stuff" or just want to replace a defective item with the same model not made any longer.

Another poster recently mentioned how he sold some DVD titles on ebay for about $20, titles that are easily found in $5 bins at major B&M's.

So, cost control *is* possible inthis hobby ;).

The discussion was concerning when the masses adopted DVD. They adopted it once future value was guaranteed. By the time the masses adopted DVD, it was clear they would be getting 5+ years of value (which INCLUDES NEW RELEASES wekk after week after week). With the way things are going, it looks like they will get 10+ years... easily.

What can HDM offer me? 6 months? 12 months?

Let's see what happens to Blu-Ray if tomorrow morning every major studio announced they would never release another Blu-Ray movie... ever. They all announced they were abandoning Blu-Ray completely.

In your world, do people keep buying Blu-Ray players? In my world, production on Blu-Ray players stops overnight and you don't see a single unit in any major retail outlet 3 months from now.

It's all about future value. The future value ain't there with either HDM format. Either one could be dead and burried 12 months from now. Once the format war is over, all studios jump on board one format, and sales numbers slowly rise month after month, future value will be guaranteed and the masses (those who own HDTV anyway) will jump in.

So it is written and so it shall be done.

Is your premise that something is supposed to last forever? 25+ years isn't enough?

Seen any rotary dial telephones lately?:rolleyes:

Hey, I have soo much confidence in HDM, that I don't sell my DVDs of catalog titles. The funny thing is that a good year before it debuted, I did sell some of what I thought were mainstream titles on DVD, an oddly enough Robbin Hood and The Thing were amongst them. Now however, SD barley gets ya $3 after fees and I feel HDM is in check (especially for my kind of titles).

... It's just that the masses are not going to buy in until some reasonable future value is guaranteed.
I'm rather skeptical of the factual basis for that statement. Or opinion...

I'll put myself in with the "masses" in that I tend to rent more than I buy. I "bought into" DVD when my neighborhood video rental store started carrying DVDs. I might have "bought into" LaserDisc, but there was no convenient rental outlet. I certainly never thought in terms of a guaranteed future value.

I "bought into" HD DVD when the quality was established along with suitable title availability. Partly because of the two format situation, I've bought rather few titles, preferring to rent most movies. I'm also running out of storage space...

What can HDM offer me? 6 months? 12 months?

It's all about future value. The future value ain't there with either HDM format.This so-called future value is strictly your belief in what's something is worth to you.

To the masses it's simply can I rent the latest release... with DVD it was I don't have to rewind and the picture is a little prettier.

The moment (all) new releases are available on HDM it will be... the picture is a lot prettier! They won't even get a calculator out to figure out your future value. Which is rather proven by today news that each American owes $30,000. :)

And there's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just that the masses are not going to buy in until some reasonable future value is guaranteed.


It's too early for the masses...So, why stress about them?

And there's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just that the masses are not going to buy in until some reasonable future value is guaranteed.

You keep repeating this over and over. Do you believe that future value is guaranteed in CE ?

Art

You keep repeating this over and over. Do you believe that future value is guaranteed in CE ?

Art


Pick any CE product that's been adopted by the masses. Any product. It's your choice.

A brand new TV for example. Is future value guaranteed with this product? It sure is. You know that it will allow you to enjoy new content for minimum 5-10 years.

An iPod. Does it provide guaranteed future value? Yup. You know there will be iTunes waiting for you for the next 5 years at least... full of new release CD's.

A new radio? Any future value there? Yes again. You know you'll have new content every day for the next 5-10 years.

HDM? You pick the wrong side and your future value is limited to 6-12 months possibly.

Let's say the holographic disc association announced that starting in 2008 all major studios would support holographic disc. Players would be $300-$1000 and movies would be $30.99. Great, right? But, there's a catch. The studios would only be supporting it for 6 months and then support would end forever. No new movies. No new catalogue titles. No rentals. Nothing. Nada. It's over.

You think the masses would jump on the holographic bandwagon in the above scenerio for a great 6 month ride? I sure don't.

Pick any CE product that's been adopted by the masses. Any product. It's your choice.

A brand new TV for example. Is future value guaranteed with this product? It sure is. You know that it will provide you a means of enjoying new content for minimum 5-10 years.

An iPod. Does it provide guaranteed future value? Yup. You know there will be iTunes waiting for you for the next 5 years at least... full of new release CD's.

A new radio? Any future value there? Yes again. You know you'll have new content every day for the next 5-10 years.

HDM? You pick the wrong side and your future value is limited to 6-12 months possibly.

Let's say the holographic disc association announced that starting in 2008 all major studios would support holographic disc. Players would be $300-$1000 and movies would be $30.99. Great, right? But, there's a catch. The studios would only be supporting it for 6 months and then support would end forever. No new movies. No new catalogue titles. No rentals. Nothing. Nada. It's over.

You think the masses would jump on the holographic bandwagon in the above scenerio for a great 6 month ride? I sure don't.


I keep seeing 5 years as the basis for the minimum that something should last - in your opinion. Do you really doubt that HDM won't last for another 5 years from today?

I'm rather skeptical of the factual basis for that statement. Or opinion...

I'll put myself in with the "masses" in that I tend to rent more than I buy. I "bought into" DVD when my neighborhood video rental store started carrying DVDs. I might have "bought into" LaserDisc, but there was no convenient rental outlet. I certainly never thought in terms of a guaranteed future value.

I "bought into" HD DVD when the quality was established along with suitable title availability. Partly because of the two format situation, I've bought rather few titles, preferring to rent most movies. I'm also running out of storage space...

Would you have bought into DVD if there was a 50/50 chance of the entire format being abandoned by studios 6 months after you bought your player?

You may have, but most would not.

Would you have bought into DVD if there was a 50/50 chance of the entire format being abandoned by studios 6 months after you bought your player?

You may have, but most would not.

1.4 million did. And when DVD launched - there were missing studios - and DIVX was going to launch - which it did in December 1998.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

If you don't feel confident about HDM - then you should either definitely wait - or skip it - and get the next format that replaces HDM. When that will be is anyone's guess.

Pick any CE product that's been adopted by the masses. Any product. It's your choice.

A brand new TV for example. Is future value guaranteed with this product? It sure is. You know that it will provide you a means of enjoying new content for minimum 5-10 years.

An iPod. Does it provide guaranteed future value? Yup. You know there will be iTunes waiting for you for the next 5 years at least... full of new release CD's.

A new radio? Any future value there? Yes again. You know you'll have new content every day for the next 5-10 years.

HDM? You pick the wrong side and your future value is limited to 6-12 months possibly.

Let's say the holographic disc association announced that starting in 2008 all major studios would support holographic disc. Players would be $300-$1000 and movies would be $30.99. Great, right? But, there's a catch. The studios would only be supporting it for 6 months and then support would end forever. No new movies. No new catalogue titles. No rentals. Nothing. Nada. It's over.

You think the masses would jump on the holographic bandwagon in the above scenerio for a great 6 month ride? I sure don't.

You are actually quite entertaining. You pick the amount of future guarenteed life for each thing then proceed to call yourself a prophet as you give the answer.

Your whole premise is based on cherry picked examples.You keep intimating that those of us with the means are not as smart as you because we choose to spend discretionary income on what is today the best without it being nebulously future proofed. You know very well that nothing including DLP,SXRD LCOS,HDMI 1.3, 5.1,16x9 ,1080x1920 is future gaurantee but I'm not waiting for one to win when each could be replaced by something we aren't talking about yet.

HDM is in it's third year and will almost surely go quite a bit longer than that. Increments of life that large are certainly worth a lot more than a few hundred dollars I spend on this.

Art

I keep seeing 5 years as the basis for the minimum that something should last - in your opinion. Do you really doubt that HDM won't last for another 5 years from today?

Uncertainty is the point. Can you say with any certainty whatsoever that BOTH HDM formats will be alive and supported by studios even 2 years from now?

Just as an example, let's say 8 months from now both Paramount and Warner go Blu-Ray exclusive. The HD DVD format is effectively dead. "Oops, that new player I just bought Uncle Elmer 2 weeks ago can't play any new releases. My bad."

I forgot about The Sand Pebbles. Netflix even had a Bd listing for that ("save" with a 9/07 release date iirc) but I don't know if they still do.
Where Eagles Dare is another good one. I pulled out the dvd recently and it looked quite nice- save for what was either color breathing or artifacting in the shadows.
There might be some visible haloing on this one too.
I would love to see Sony release The Deep.

a few more I forgot
The Year Of Living Dangerously
Thelma And Louise
Flash Gordon


as for what is 'likely' to show up
The Exorcist (next year is an anniversary year, and the title was on the original pre launch leaked list so I would think this is as close to a lock as any)
Singin' In The Rain (Robert Harris said this was ready to go last year, but weak classic sales is evidently causing Warner to hold it back)
Wizard Of Oz (same deal as Singin In the Rain- we'll probably get this one in 2009 since its the next anniversary year)
The first Hitchcocks will likely be Vertigo and Psycho
Blues Brothers is overdue (it was also on that leaked list)
I think one or two of the James Dean movies is likely- probably Rebel Without A Cause
The first two (at least) Burton Batman movies will be out next for sure next year.

I just hope we get a lot more from Warner next year than we did this year. I was frankly underwhelmed. Some nice stuff made it out, but I remember a lot of weeks going by with no announcements at all.

Uncertainty is the point. Can you say with any certainty whatsoever that BOTH HDM formats will be alive and supported by studios even 2 years from now?

Just as an example, let's say 8 months from now both Paramount and Warner go Blu-Ray exclusive. The HD DVD format is effectively dead. "Oops, that new player I just bought Uncle Elmer 2 weeks ago can't play any new releases. My bad."

See - here is the problem - you are ignoring the fact that the lowest price so far for a HDM player was that $98 priced A2.

Now if you consider $98 to be a large amount of money to risk - well we can understand that. Not everyone has alot.

But it also plays and upscales DVD's which we know has a future of at least 5 years from now.

And you can see all the HD movies you want - just rent them. Don't buy any. Not a single one. Then your "risk" is really only $25 - the cost difference between the A2 and an UP DVD player.

Now I am sure that anyone can risk $25 . . . don't you?

OBTW - you will also get 5 free HD DVD's worth about $100 or you can sell them for $10 a piece and reduce your "investment" to only $48 out of pocket cash.

So please . . once again - tell me about risk and uncertainty measured to potential loss based on making a mistake buying the "wrong" format.

PS my LD player - bought it in 1990 - still working - and so do the LD's. Neither exploded after DVD was launched.

Just as an example, let's say 8 months from now both Paramount and Warner go Blu-Ray exclusive. The HD DVD format is effectively dead. "Oops, that new player I just bought Uncle Elmer 2 weeks ago can't play any new releases. My bad."

Really..ah no $hit !:rolleyes:

Why are you down on this ? I have a display that needs to be fed high octane, do you even haven an HD display ? If one spends thousands of dollars on a nice FP or plasma display ,for example ,running the best into it ,to maximize performance and enjoyment , is a no brainer.

Art

You are actually quite entertaining. You pick the amount of future guarenteed life for each thing then proceed to call yourself a prophet as you give the answer.

Your whole premise is based on cherry picked examples.You keep intimating that those of us with the means are not as smart as you because we choose to spend discretionary income on what is today the best without it being nebulously future proofed. You know very well that nothing including DLP,SXRD LCOS,HDMI 1.3, 5.1,16x9 ,1080x1920 is future gaurantee but I'm not waiting for one to win when each could be replaced by something we aren't talking about yet.

HDM is in it's third year and will almost surely go quite a bit longer than that. Increments of life that large are certainly worth a lot more than a few hundred dollars I spend on this.

Art

If you pick the


I allowed you to chose any CE product that was adopted by the masses. Maybe there is one that had zero guaranteed future value, but I can't think of a single one.

Secondly, the examples you give (Plasma, LCD, HDMI, etc.) all have reasonable guaranteed future value. If they didn't when early adopters jumped on board, they certainly did once the masses jumped in. All will last 5-10 years +.

Thirdly, and most importantly, I never said (or tried to imply) that those "with the means" shouldn't buy whatever they want. If you have the cash, go for it. I support that 100%. Without early adopters, we wouldn't get such great technology as fast and as cheap as we do. God love you. I was under the impression that we were talking about mass adoption of HDM and it's barriers. My opinion is that the format war and the resulting uncertainty of future value is a major barrier.

I was under the impression that we were talking about mass adoption of HDM and it's barriers. My opinion is that the format war and the resulting uncertainty of future value is a major barrier.

True !

Really..ah no $hit !:rolleyes:

Why are you down on this ? I have a display that needs to be fed high octane, do you even haven an HD display ? If one spends thousands of dollars on a nice FP or plasma display ,for example ,running the best into it ,to maximize performance and enjoyment , is a no brainer.

Art

I agree 100%. I have no problem with it at all. Yes I do have an HD display and I love it. I'm very much looking forward to a unified format that will be supported by all studios.

I allowed you to chose any CE product that was adopted by the masses. Maybe there is one that had zero guaranteed future value, but I can't think of a single one.



Betamax and eight track tape. Everyone had to have it because it did something special not because it had a future proof guarantee.

Art

I was under the impression that we were talking about mass adoption of HDM and it's barriers. My opinion is that the format war and the resulting uncertainty of future value is a major barrier.I don't think future value comes into play. It's current value... the masses can't rent all of the new releases. The moment they could your future value would be guaranteed. :)

See - here is the problem - you are ignoring the fact that the lowest price so far for a HDM player was that $98 priced A2.

Now if you consider $98 to be a large amount of money to risk - well we can understand that. Not everyone has alot.

But it also plays and upscales DVD's which we know has a future of at least 5 years from now.

And you can see all the HD movies you want - just rent them. Don't buy any. Not a single one. Then your "risk" is really only $25 - the cost difference between the A2 and an UP DVD player.

Now I am sure that anyone can risk $25 . . . don't you?

OBTW - you will also get 5 free HD DVD's worth about $100 or you can sell them for $10 a piece and reduce your "investment" to only $48 out of pocket cash.

So please . . once again - tell me about risk and uncertainty measured to potential loss based on making a mistake buying the "wrong" format.

PS my LD player - bought it in 1990 - still working - and so do the LD's. Neither exploded after DVD was launched.

Yes, buying that exact player at that exact time and only renting is a low-to-no risk proposition. I won't argue that. But where does that bring HDM? An entire format of renters, not buying anything?

There is hesitation to build up libraries for a format that could go belly up 6 months from now. That applies to either HD DVD or Blu-Ray. If there were a unified format supported by all studios, there would not be that hesitation.

I view future value as studio support and access to new releases. Neither format can offer that to me at this point. The only alternative is to buy 2 players (which most people will not do) or go with a DF player (too expensive at this point).