I've been set on buying the XBR4 for a long time, was just waiting until the right moment. Then I read a review of the Pioneer Elite and decided to go check it out. . . was blown away.

Today I had a chance to see them side by side. I have to say, much to chagrin, no comparison. On a football game, not only movement superior on the pio, the detail was as well. There was a lot of artifacting with motionflow on the XBR4. The colors were more natural (of course, XBR was probably on torch mode) but everything about the pio looked was real. On X-Men - the gradations, flesh tones, and blacks were so much better I couldn't take my eyes off of the Pioneer.

The XBR had two points in its favor - it was noticably brighter (too bright in the display mode, but I guess this can be brought down) and glare wasn't an issue at all.

The XBR is a great display, and if I hadn't seen the Pio I would probably have been happy getting it. But unfortunately, I've seen the light and now have to concede that the very best LCDs do not hold a candle to the very best plasma displays.

Of course, I could get two XBRs for the price of one of these Elites - but even the regular kuro looks superior to the XBRs and if you were willing to go without 1080p - the prices would be comprable.

So, I'll wait a bit for the right deal, or finance a little (Magnolia had 36 months interest free - which almost had me right there). . .I'm hopping I can get a good deal in Jan or Feb. . .we'll see.

Don't compromise picture quality for the sake of glare or brightness. If you are serious about PQ, you will be watching in a light controlled enviroment anyway. Get the Pioneer or you will regret it sooner or later.

If the price is a big factor, go without 1080p since it is far less important than colors and blacks.

That story is exactly like mine. I was going to buy the XBR5 about a month ago. I was at the store all ready to buy it, that's when I saw the Pioneer Kuro playing Dave Matthews. It blew me away! I never even considered plasma's until that day. I could not stop looking at the PQ. I went back home and did research and I was sold! I honestly go to Best Buy 3-4 times a week to stare at the Kuro. I can't help it! I actually went to my buddies house to check out his XBR5, hoping I'd love it and save 3 grand and buy the XBR5. It just isn't the same. I need the Pio...

I'm just waiting for a little bit of a price drop and that Pioneer Elite 60" is all mine!!!

Yep. The current Pioneers are very impressive. Usually in stores it's hard to really tell the difference between sets because of the environment/source. But even with all of that it's easy to see the quality of the KUROs and be blown away by them. They are just too expensive for me right now, so I went with a Panasonic instead, and hopefully when I buy another one in 2 years there will be significant advaces in PDP tech over all companies. It can only get better right?

Yep. The current Pioneers are very impressive. Usually in stores it's hard to really tell the difference between sets because of the environment/source. But even with all of that it's easy to see the quality of the KUROs and be blown away by them. They are just too expensive for me right now, so I went with a Panasonic instead, and hopefully when I buy another one in 2 years there will be significant advaces in PDP tech over all companies. It can only get better right?


Considering the Panasonic as a compromise. . .but that kuro is sooooo nice and not all that more expensive than the 750. . .

I'll wait it out until February or so but can't wait forever. . .I'm guessing it will be the last TV I need to buy for long time.

That story is exactly like mine. I was going to buy the XBR5 about a month ago. I was at the store all ready to buy it, when I saw the Pioneer Kuro playing Dave Matthews. It blew me away! I never even considered plasma's until that day. I could not stop looking at the PQ. I went back home and did research and I was sold! I honestly go to Best Buy 3-4 times a week to stare at the Kuro. I can't help it! I actually went to my buddies house to check out his XBR5, hoping I'd love it save 3 grand and buy the XBR5. It just isn't the same. I need the Pio...

I'm just waiting for a little bit of a price drop and that Pioneer Elite 60" is all mine!!!

Let this be a warning to everyone out there - if you check into the Pioneer Elite - you may never be happy with any other set on the market. . .it's that impressive.

Let this be a warning to everyone out there - if you check into the Pioneer Elite - you may never be happy with any other set on the market. . .it's that impressive.

True enough. But that is with everything, isn't it? Sooner or later you have to weigh your options, count your coins, and pull the trigger. As I looked for my set what I came to realize is that many look really good but the show rooms, ironically, aren't the best place to make the final call, IMHO. Once one gets their set home into their unique environment, calibrate it out, and use it with their sources, their eyes settle in and it will be beautiful (AEBE). It's not like people have multiple units to constantly see differences.

Anyway, this is the same old battle, isn't it? What do I want, what can I afford, and when do I want it. Pick two and go with it when it feels right ;)

Anyway, this is the same old battle, isn't it? What do I want, what can I afford, and when do I want it. Pick two and go with it when it feels right ;)

yarp - could not agree more. . .I would have been perfectly happy if I had only not come across that dang review. . .

Can anyone comment on the brightness of the Elite models (110FD and 150FD)? I saw one in BB and seem to be not as bright as the Panny and Sammy beside it
Maybe it is not adjusted properly?

Can anyone comment on the brightness of the Elite models (110FD and 150FD)? I saw one in BB and seem to be not as bright as the Panny and Sammy beside it
Maybe it is not adjusted properly?

Once you bring it home you'll be surprised how bright it is. I know I was. In fact I toned down the brightness quite a few times at night.

True enough. But that is with everything, isn't it? Sooner or later you have to weigh your options, count your coins, and pull the trigger. As I looked for my set what I came to realize is that many look really good but the show rooms, ironically, aren't the best place to make the final call, IMHO. Once one gets their set home into their unique environment, calibrate it out, and use it with their sources, their eyes settle in and it will be beautiful (AEBE). It's not like people have multiple units to constantly see differences.

Anyway, this is the same old battle, isn't it? What do I want, what can I afford, and when do I want it. Pick two and go with it when it feels right ;)

so totally agree with that statement although i'm from the non-kuros camp :)

i've owned my sony xbr2 for over a year now and just recently found out how to maximize/minimize the dark end of the spectrum using the "power save" feature. the difference in black level and color saturation was night and day with it switched off.

now i have last gen's xbr and you're talking about the new one's. i can only imagine that it will be that much better and i'm in no hurry to upgrade( even though i've been staring at the new sets) because the pq is that good.

Let this be a warning to everyone out there - if you check into the Pioneer Elite - you may never be happy with any other set on the market. . .it's that impressive.

Too late for me. :o

I have yet to see a Kuro side by side with another TV(except the 5010) to see how its black levels are. At BestBuy, the Bravia is like 20 feet away(with some Blu-Ray disc), and then I can also compare it to the 6010. Now the 6010 and the 5884 are close(they're so big though so they are like 10-15 feet apart), I can't compare them appropriately since they're in a lighted environment(and bestbuy decides to put the LCDs in the dark section and the plasmas in the lighted section, total mismatch!).

Point being, I've never seen how good a Kuro is, so even a Bravia or a Samsung plasma would be fine. I want to see a Kuro compared to others though, but it's like an hour away to the next store with a Kuro(actually Elite Kuros only, no Kuros because Tweeters doesn't want to carry models that BestBuy does. I wish that someone could take a photo(of these two(calibrated) sets in a dark room) so I could see exactly what you guys are talking about.

Too late for me. :o

i feel your pain johnny... ;)

I know exactly how you feel. I had been looking for a TV replacement for my Sony 36" Wega CRT tube for about 5 years... was waiting for SED and when that ship sailed, I gave up and said I wanted something. This was last year. I started my search looking at SXRD and then eventually got discouraged and then went to the XBR2/3 bravia LCDs... after looking at the store, I was disappointed. I happened to be walking by an FHD1 at Magnolia and was quite impressed with the picture. That's what got me into plasmas...

Turns out my friend is an authorized dealer for both Sony and Pio and they feel Pio has the best picture. So I went with the 1140HD, because 1080p on a 50" wasn't worth the extra money for me. I was thrilled with the TV, but wanted bigger...

Then came the 150FD... 60" wonderful inches of great picture sitting 7' to 10' away. It's the best and like you said, I can't look at anything else with out being a little disappointed... It also didn't hurt getting it for a good deal too!

Russ

Let this be a warning to everyone out there - if you check into the Pioneer Elite - you may never be happy with any other set on the market. . .it's that impressive.

Don't you still love it johnny? I told you they would take care of you and it was a great set! Now I have my own to enjoy myself! Good times all around!

Too late for me. :o

Next time you guys go to a store to compare these sets, can you take a picture? I can't do any sort of comparison since the the best LCDs(XBR 4 and 71F) are running two different materials(Direct TV and Blu-Ray) from the rest of the TVs. The only thing I can compare Kuros to, are Kuros. I can't do any comparisons and I have yet to see how the blacks of a Kuro are a huge step ahead of the business. Did you guys change the settings around or compared them as they were?

I love how some people say "well, it has better blacks...so what? it's not worth the extra $$".

I guess better Color rendering, better processing, better IRE performance, etc, is just not important enough

I love how some people say "well, it has better blacks...so what? it's not worth the extra $$".

I guess better Color rendering, better processing, better IRE performance, etc, is just not important enough


I give Kuro and plasma in general better color when it's stable- but better processing? Sony is KING of processing..:p Also LCD is completely void of false contouring-posterization, do you ever notice this on pioneer? I hear pio is one of the best at eliminating this 'inherent' flaw but is it perfect? Do you ever notice skin tones "break down" in low light scenes?

so totally agree with that statement although i'm from the non-kuros camp :)

i've owned my sony xbr2 for over a year now and just recently found out how to maximize/minimize the dark end of the spectrum using the "power save" feature. the difference in black level and color saturation was night and day with it switched off.

now i have last gen's xbr and you're talking about the new one's. i can only imagine that it will be that much better and i'm in no hurry to upgrade( even though i've been staring at the new sets) because the pq is that good.

Any screenshots boss? Prove to us the PQ is good :D

I give Kuro and plasma in general better color when it's stable- but better processing? Sony is KING of processing..:p Also LCD is completely void of false contouring-posterization, do you ever notice this on pioneer? I hear pio is one of the best at eliminating this 'inherent' flaw but is it perfect? Do you ever notice skin tones "break down" in low light scenes?

I actually have the opposite impression: to me plasma has generally better processing and less contouring or artifacts
Maybe you have more scientific evidence, but this is what my eyes are telling me.

I give Kuro and plasma in general better color when it's stable- but better processing? Sony is KING of processing..:p Also LCD is completely void of false contouring-posterization, do you ever notice this on pioneer? I hear pio is one of the best at eliminating this 'inherent' flaw but is it perfect? Do you ever notice skin tones "break down" in low light scenes?

What? LCD certainly isn't void of false contouring. It has nothing to do with LCD or plasma, but of insufficient bit depth.

I actually have the opposite impression: to me plasma has generally better processing and less contouring or artifacts
Maybe you have more scientific evidence, but this is what my eyes are telling me.

Plasma definately does not have better processing. Also processing comes from the manufacturer, not the display technology.. Evidence? Go review any lcd on cnet and see if you see false contouring a "bad" or con on any review. Newer panasonics and samsungs still cant get it down, can anybody?

Insufficient bit depth? Not likely. Heavy duty or extreme processing might..

Another test on plasma to check is turn up brightness a little on a all black screen? Do you see dancing noise everywhere up close. Rear-lcd i have has zero noise and the plasma looks like noise moving everywhere. Also any video noise seems to be enhanced heavily by this. Mits dlp i had also did this but did not seem to enhance video noise. I still have yet to test the pio but technology wise i think plasma can be one of the worst technology for video noise, false contouring, but damn it's the best PQ when it does look good.

Plasma definately does not have better processing. Also processing comes from the manufacturer, not the display technology.. Evidence? Go review any lcd on cnet and see if you see false contouring a "bad" or con on any review. Newer panasonics and samsungs still cant get it down, can anybody?

Insufficient bit depth? Not likely. Heavy duty or extreme processing might..

Dude, go read about false contouring. It's a result of bit depth on digital displays, period. That's not a function of one particular technology. You said it yourself, so how can you say processing is a function of the manufacturer and not the technology.... but in another sentence you say plasma processing is inferior to LCD. ???

I'm not sure how you can say "plasma doesn't have better processing" when it's a function of the electronics and not the panel. That makes no sense. IE, you can move the processing offboard from the panel.

Don't you still love it johnny? I told you they would take care of you and it was a great set! Now I have my own to enjoy myself! Good times all around!

Hehe I do russ. They did take care of me. I just wish I had more time w/ the display to enjoy! :) Get your Kuro and enjoy too my friend.

Another test on plasma to check is turn up brightness a little on a all black screen? Do you see dancing noise everywhere up close. Rear-lcd i have has zero noise and the plasma looks like noise moving everywhere. Also any video noise seems to be enhanced heavily by this. Mits dlp i had also did this but did not seem to enhance video noise. I still have yet to test the pio but technology wise i think plasma can be one of the worst technology for video noise, false contouring, but damn it's the best PQ when it does look good.

I tend to agree with you except the 1080p version at least of Kuro is devoid of any false contouring and minimizes video noise. That test you describe still makes the Kuro dance though... but it doesn't correlate w/ fc or vn.

I'm saying the technolgy itself is prone to false contouring imo. I've also read NO plasma is void of it completely but pio is one of the best eliminating it. Also plasma imo is also prone to noise. Panasonic has above average processing wouldnt you say? Their 65 plasma is the noisest display i have ever seen.. And they still have not eliminating false contouring, also samsung uses very high bit rate processing and they still have not eliminated it.. Do you notice this at all on your kuro brent? I guess it would be a non issue if not but i'm sure many have suffered the false contouring artifacts with their plasmas know what i'm saying.