I really hope that I am posting to the right place (I think I am), but if I am wrong, my apologies.

My problem (best "problem" I've ever had) is this: I have been saving for a while now so that I can buy a nice receiver and a 5.1 system. I have about $5000 (or so) to spend (separate budget for cables, by the way), and feel like I am pretty set on a receiver that costs ~ $1500 (thinking Denon 3808). So, with the residual, I want to buy some nice speakers. I could REALLY benefit from the collective expertise of the forum, as I would love to purchase pieces that I can keep with me for a while. I have a few questions, but I will (very) gladly accept advice not related to what I've asked also.

For reference, I have a 52" XBR4 and will be placing this in a room that is 17' x 20' with ceilings that are about 12'. The use of the system will be almost exclusively for TV/movie purposes (via blu-ray or HD-DVD player), with only occasional music (unless its a concert on blu-ray). I am renting currently, so I can't get in-wall speakers, and I haven't mounted my TV on the wall (I do NOT have any problem running wires around the room, though). I have the TV on its pedastal, and it is on top of a stand (picture of the stand below).

My questions, if you have the time:

1) I know this one sounds stupid, but I have no idea what to do. I need a center channel, but the room is not big enough to place the center channel on a stand in front of the TV. I have seen very few wall-mounts for these speakers. I have searched several sites for "shelves," "lifts," "platforms," etc. So the first question is whether anyone knows of an additional shelf of something that I can put ON TOP of the above stand, that can hold my TV (~95lbs), so that I can put my center channel UNDER the TV? Or is this a stupid idea?

2) I know the room seems small, but as I said, I am also looking to the future, and will move soon to a bigger house. I think I should definitely get floor standing speakers for the fronts, but lately have been considering floor standing speakers for the back as well. I have seen several posts in this forum that suggest that this is a fine thing to do. My question is (and I know this may sound dumb) if I do this, is it a waste of money? Specifically, if I get floor standing speakers for the surrounds, am I losing the use of any of the speaker that is below the level of the top of the couches?

3) Related to #2: For now, in my apartment, I am not going to be able to put the surrounds behind my primary viewing seat. They will basically be to the sides either way. And they will not be very far away from my "prime" seat (say 3-4' tops). Should this information discourage me from getting floor speakers in the rear?

4) And I definitely understand the importance of auditioning speakers on my own, but I am having a hard time finding any places that have brands that are not carried by BB and CC. So, I know that my ears aren't your ears, but if anyone has any suggestions for speakers, I'd love to hear them.

5) And finally, does it matter which corner I put the sub in? I was initially going to put it in the corner to the left of the TV, but someone told me I should put it closer to the couch.

Okay, I think I've asked enough of all the forum members. Thanks for any suggestions/advice.

12/4 Edit: I guess there was something wrong with the photo I originally uploaded. Here is a new picture, but not of my space. Its just a photo from the web with a TV that is not mine. Sorry for the non-funtioning link before. -rtl

1) There are alot of choices. I chose Omnimounts MW system for components, a speaker would work as well. There are other wall shelves made for audio, in addition to a thousand different types of speaker wall mounts. Try standsandmounts.com for a bunch of choices.

2) Yes you could do it, but good monitors or surround speakers give you much better placement flexibility. With rear towers, you might sacrifice optimal placement and actaully end up sounding worse than smaller speakers. For one, the tweeter might be aimed at the back of the couch!

3) See 2.

4) You'll get a ton of answers here, and there are ton of threads asking for speaker recs at every price point. I'd be tempted by B&W 800 series and Paradigm Studio series systems. However, skip their subs and get one or 2 of the highly regarded ID subs such as HSU or SVS among others.

5) The only way you will know about where to place a sub is to experiment in the actual room.

6) I know, not asked...but I'd strongly advise separates at your price points. I'd even sacrifice a little in the speakers budget to get seps. over a receiver.

In the Boston area Q Audio on Mass Ave in Cambridge is a good place to start. There's also Natural Sound in Framingham, they cater more to the high end two channel crowd but they have many speaker brands. One of my favorite places is Audio Concepts in Attleboro Falls:

http://www.audioconcepts.com/

They carry B&W, Paradigm, Rotel, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, and several other brands. They're good guys and they treat their customers great, in other words they value their customers. If you are interested in any of the aforementioned brands Audio Concepts is the place to visit. See Pete, he'll take care of you.

1) There are alot of choices. I chose Omnimounts MW system for components, a speaker would work as well. There are other wall shelves made for audio, in addition to a thousand different types of speaker wall mounts. Try standsandmounts.com for a bunch of choices.

2) Yes you could do it, but good monitors or surround speakers give you much better placement flexibility. With rear towers, you might sacrifice optimal placement and actaully end up sounding worse than smaller speakers. For one, the tweeter might be aimed at the back of the couch!

3) See 2.

4) You'll get a ton of answers here, and there are ton of threads asking for speaker recs at every price point. I'd be tempted by B&W 800 series and Paradigm Studio series systems. However, skip their subs and get one or 2 of the highly regarded ID subs such as HSU or SVS among others.

5) The only way you will know about where to place a sub is to experiment in the actual room.

6) I know, not asked...but I'd strongly advise separates at your price points. I'd even sacrifice a little in the speakers budget to get seps. over a receiver.

Steve_D: Thanks so much for the advice, and I will definitely look into the separates idea. Are there any components that you'd suggest? And what would be the advantage of seaparates over a single piece? Is it just that I can upgrade individually, or is the video and audio hardware expected to be much better?

A question about the center channel mount: The ones I've seen on that website are all for mounting on the wall. Any ideas about how to lift the television off the stand, so I can put the CC beneath? Or is it better to put the CC above the TV?

In the Boston area Q Audio on Mass Ave in Cambridge is a good place to start. There's also Natural Sound in Framingham, they cater more to the high end two channel crowd but they have many speaker brands. One of my favorite places is Audio Concepts in Attleboro Falls:

They carry B&W, Paradigm, Rotel, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, and several other brands. They're good guys and they treat their customers great, in other words they value their customers. If you are interested in any of the aforementioned brands Audio Concepts is the place to visit. See Pete, he'll take care of you.

Steve: Thanks so much for that lead. I don't know how I didn't find it. I had found some places in Natick, and in NH, but none that carried so many different options. I'm glad to hear that they believe in valuing customers. I have been continually intimidated with those places because I feel like they don't care too much if you are not looking to put together a $50K theater.



Any other ideas would be great. I really appreciate all of your help.

-Todd

Components will give you much better amplifiers, and of course the Amp will be good for a long time and you can upgrade your pre-amp separately. The day I add B&K Ref 4420 Amps to my Studio 40's, still using my old Denon 3801 A/V receiver as the pre-amp, was the day I realized how I could get at home the sound I heard in the high end stores. Today I have 3 B&K amps fronted by a Cary Audio pre-pro feeding Studio 100's :)

I'm sorry, I haven't shopped for pre-pros or amps for awhile so I don't know the latest bang-for-buck recs...but for ~ the same price as your 3808 I know for instance you could get the Outlaw Audio 990/7125 combo (but no HDMI switching) Post a question over in the appropriate forum specifically for 3808 v Separates and you'll most likely get some other suggestions like Rotel, Parasound, B&K, etc..

Components will give you much better amplifiers, and of course the Amp will be good for a long time and you can upgrade your pre-amp separately. The day I add B&K Ref 4420 Amps to my Studio 40's, still using my old Denon 3801 A/V receiver as the pre-amp, was the day I realized how I could get at home the sound I heard in the high end stores. Today I have 3 B&K amps fronted by a Cary Audio pre-pro feeding Studio 100's :)

I'm sorry, I haven't shopped for pre-pros or amps for awhile so I don't know the latest bang-for-buck recs...but for ~ the same price as your 3808 I know for instance you could get the Outlaw Audio 990/7125 combo (but no HDMI switching) Post a question over in the appropriate forum specifically for 3808 v Separates and you'll most likely get some other suggestions like Rotel, Parasound, B&K, etc..

Steve_D: Thanks for the info. I just looked at the Outlaw site. Looks pretty great. I'm going to keep looking at more separates. Thanks for taking the time.

Still looking for the best speakers for my space, too. And an idea for the center channel, and where to place it. Anyone out there with any other ideas? Thanks.

-Todd

I don't know - if I were you with that budget I'd get the best speakers I could afford, a decent receiver for now and add an amp later. You're going to want to upgrade at some point, may as well give yourself something to look forward to. I don't think seperates are a necessity, or even a good idea, at this budget, given the amount of features you're going to have to give up (hdmi switching/upconverting, video scaling, etc).

I don't know - if I were you with that budget I'd get the best speakers I could afford, a decent receiver for now and add an amp later. You're going to want to upgrade at some point, may as well give yourself something to look forward to. I don't think seperates are a necessity, or even a good idea, at this budget, given the amount of features you're going to have to give up (hdmi switching/upconverting, video scaling, etc).


ZTH: THanks for the input. Certainly I don't know "tons" about any of this, but I know even less about the separates. I didn't realize that i'd have to sacrifice video scaling, etc.

Back to the speakers, though. If I find a way to "lift" my television (which I still don't know how to do), can I just put the center speaker on the stand in front of it, or should I buy something that will angle it slightly upwards? Should I do something to "secure" the speaker to the stand?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

-Todd

For separates you may also want to look at emotiva.

1)...I know, not asked...but I'd strongly advise separates at your price points. I'd even sacrifice a little in the speakers budget to get seps. over a receiver.

Advice is wonderful. It helps add to what we research on our own. But take it with a grain of salt. Mine as well. :p Take the above statement. I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of members on this site would disagree with it. As do I. I would NEVER sacrifice the quality of my speakers to upgrade my electronics. I have seperates in my system (Anthem and Sherbourn) but at your price point, the ones mentioned already are fine. But...the areas that will improve the sound dramatically are the speakers and the room treatments with electronics being a distant third in the mix. I'm not saying that electronics don't make a difference. Of course they do. Just not nearly as dramatic as speakers and room treatments. Also, electronics come into play and are more important in 2 channel listening, or for critically listening to music. Watching movies in a HT system such as you describe in the room size you mention, the receiver you selected or frankly any receiver in the $1,000 more or less, price range will give equal sound quality. IMO always start with the best speakers you can afford and treat the room properly. I feel so strongly about the quality of speakers being the most important consideration that I (and many many others) often suggest that people invest in quality mains and a center and add the others later if there are budget concerns. Your budget will allow you to do fine, though, so I'd go with a budget receiver ($500-$1,000) a good DVD transport and invest the remaining money into speakers. Those speakers will stay with you forever. Electronics just keep getting cheaper and cheaper so when you finally do move to a larger setting, you can feel good knowing that your speakers can make the move and to purchase seperates or more advanced electronics will cost you less (dollar for dollar) than they would today! But as I said, take this with a grain of salt. (but I just strongly disagree with the suggestion that you buy cheaper speakers just so you can buy seperates that you won't hear any sound improvement from in your particular application and room)

Steve: Thanks so much for that lead. I don't know how I didn't find it. I had found some places in Natick, and in NH, but none that carried so many different options. I'm glad to hear that they believe in valuing customers. I have been continually intimidated with those places because I feel like they don't care too much if you are not looking to put together a $50K theater.



Any other ideas would be great. I really appreciate all of your help.

-Todd

Stepping outside of CC/BB is a HUGE first step in the right direction.

QAudio is really, really small, but you can find an occasional gem there.
Natural Sound is my personal favorite (great trade-up policy)
Ensemble in NH is another personal favorite
Spearit Sound is supposed to have a decent selection, but I've never been in the Boston store.

I'd say all those stores serve a wide range of budgets, so no need to be intimidated. Just be clear about how much you're willing to spend or you'll quickly find your budget spiraling out of control...

As for the original questions, I'll basically just reiterate what's already been said:

1) Finding a suitable lift might be tough. You might be in the DIY world there. IIRC, Sanus makes modular shelves that could serve as a lift, but I'm not sure about their size specs. Can't remember where I found them, but if you google Sanus modular shelf you might be able to track them down. Also, Omnimount does make a shelf designed to work with LCD/plasmas (if that TV is of that style).

2 & 3) Floorstanders in the back are great...if you have room for them. If not, bookshelf/satellites are a great solution. Based on your current setup, I'd actually advise against floorstanders for surrounds. If they're going to be right on top of you and firing into the couch, you'd probably be better off with bookshelf speakers on stands.

5) Sub placement is a process. You won't know where it works best until you try it. Just make sure you get yourself an SPL meter and a calibration disk if you don't have one already. Something like Room EQ Wizard (REW) can be a huge help too.

Also...just for my 2c, I'd completely agree with atdamico's post that speakers/room will have a much more significant impact than electronics at this point. Not dismissing the importance/utility of quality components, but $500 worth of bass traps would likely have a much more noticeable effect than say going from a $500-$1000 receiver (assuming of course that the $500 receiver is adequately powered). Again...just my 2c.


Scott

For speakers goto http://www.aperionaudio.com they got what you want.

I have to admit, I did misread the price point, thinking it was $5000 for speakers + $1500 for AVR. At $5K for all (new), it is questionable in the Separates versus AVR if things like video switching are important to you. Personally, I run my audio and video direct.

Also, I'd rethink my speaker recs.

For speakers goto http://www.aperionaudio.com they got what you want.

Well...that would save the OP quite a bit of money, but for a budget of $3.5k+ and knowing what's available to audition in the area (at least at the places I'm familiar with), I'd be looking at something more like:

Revel, Dynaudio, B&W, Totem, Paradigm...might be able to squeak your way into Aerial if you go the sub/sat route.

Tons of great options out there...go listen and figure out what speakers are to your taste and which aren't.


Scott

Everyone: Thanks so much for your thoughts. Its pretty remarkable that I can benefit from the experience/expertise of so many people that I've never met. At least for a person like me, in this world of so many different AVR and speaker manufacturers, its easy to get lost. So, seriously, thanks.

I have a question or two to add to the thread, if you can help:

1) I posted before about what to do with my center channel if I CAN in fact get the TV lifted a bit... Do I just place it horizontally in front of the TV, or do I need to either secure it to the stand, or place it on something to angle it slightly up?

2) Is #1 a stupid question, and should I just put the CC on the wall above the TV?

3) When I do decide on speakers, it seems like everyone here has had pretty favorable experiences with having them shipped, but for some reason, I am super-concerned about what may happen on the journey as they are delivered. This is irrational, right?

4) For some of the speaker companies that are not really marketed in the US (at least as far as I know...) like Monitor, etc, where do you guys/girls get them? Phone orders, Internet, or shops that I just don't have nearby?

Thanks again, you all are life-savers (or at least headache and money-savers).

-Todd

Just an FYI, I cannot see the picture you posted in the OP...so your questions about recs based on the picture are hard. I don't know if everyone else has the same issue?

In general, your center channel should be as close to the TV as possible...and aimed at the listening position. However, I've been in many theaters with sub-optimal placements that sounded great.

I also can't see the pic you posted.

I posted before about what to do with my center channel if I CAN in fact get the TV lifted a bit... Do I just place it horizontally in front of the TV, or do I need to either secure it to the stand, or place it on something to angle it slightly up?


This will depend, in part, on what speakers you get. If you go with a traditional horizontal center channel, you can either place it below or above the display, angled so the drivers are aimed to the height of your ears while seated (laser pointer works great for this) If you end up with bookshelf speakers rather than floor standers, I might suggest that you purchase a third, exactly like the mains. In this case you would not position it horizontaly but rather upright, and still above or below with the tweeter aimed as suggested. But whatever you do, do not place it on the ground. :p

Is #1 a stupid question, and should I just put the CC on the wall above the TV?


See above. Stop stressing. Either way will be fine.



) When I do decide on speakers, it seems like everyone here has had pretty favorable experiences with having them shipped, but for some reason, I am super-concerned about what may happen on the journey as they are delivered. This is irrational, right?

Not irrational but depending on the carrier you are fairly safe. Of course if there is any damage to the packaging, inspect them before you accept them. I usually purchase used speakers and most always have them shipped. I know that there are horror stories, but I have never had a damaged speaker in transit. And I have had dozens of speakers shipped to me.

For some of the speaker companies that are not really marketed in the US (at least as far as I know...) like Monitor, etc, where do you guys/girls get them? Phone orders, Internet, or shops that I just don't have nearby?

Can't answer for everybody but when I bought my Triangles (French speakers) I contacted the company and had them reccomend a US distributor

Yep, I can't see the photo either.

I'm in agreement with atdamico. And his statement I most agree with is "Advice is wonderful. It helps add to what we research on our own. But take it with a grain of salt. Mine as well."

Like atdamico, IMHO, the components of a home theater which will have the greatest effect on how the system sounds are, in order of importance:

1. speakers
2. the room itself (dimensions, surfaces, furnishings, etc.)
3. electronics.

I would be sure to get good speakers (i.e., speakers that YOU think sound great and look good), even skimping a bit on the rest of the equipment if I had to. The problem is, speaker preference is highly subjective. What I think sounds wonderful, may not sound good to you at all, and vice versa (reread atdamico's comment about advice).

The upside to this is there are a LOT of very good speakers available, both B&M (brick and mortar = local stores) and ID (internet direct = manufacturers that only sell their product over the internet). Thus, your chance of ending up with quality speakers is very good. But, the down side to this is, you will not necessarily enjoy every quality speaker and will have to figure out which one(s) you do enjoy.

Having speakers shipped is kind of a scary thing. However, it has been my experience, both observed and personal, that virtually all of the ID companies (such as AV123/Rocket, Aperion, Axiom, Ascend, AudioInsider/Swan/Dana, etc. - and those are just the "A"s ;)), go to great lengths to adequately pack their products. However, that fact has never daunted any shipping company. They still do their best to destroy your eagerly awaited treasure. But, since these speaker companies, for the most part, have exemplary customer service, you can be pretty confident that, should any problem arise, they will bend over backward to solve and correct it.

Whether you place your center channel above or below the TV is your choice. Either will work fine. The closer to the TV the better, the idea being to have the dialog seem to come from the center of the TV. Angling the center speaker, either up or down, so that the tweeter is pointing at your ears is desirable, but not mandatory. You should not need to secure the speaker to the stand unless you have it angled so radically that securing it is necessary to prevent gravity from pulling it off the stand.

The obvious option is a center channel speaker stand (http://www.racksandstands.com/Center-Channel-l5-c7-A3921%7E10370.html) placed in front of the TV stand with the speaker angled toward your ears. Though functional, this, sometimes, can leave a lot to be desired aesthetically.

I have a relatively large center channel speaker (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=100.1) (12" H x 10.5" D x 25.5" W). What I did, was find a stand that I could easily modify to allow for these dimensions. In the photo below, you can see the small, hard rubber stoppers I installed at the top of each pillar to get me an additional 1" of height. In the photo, the stoppers are easily spotted (camera flash), but in normal lighting, they aren't even noticed. You can also see that I used another pair of the stoppers to angle the speaker up a bit (works perfectly :)).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Rijax/Bigfootsm.jpg http://members.cox.net/rijax/RocketHT62506sm.jpg

I have seen some shelves that will sit on top of a TV, with a pair of legs that extend down to the back of the TV. BUT, before you try to use a shelf like that, you must be certain the TV cabinet will support the weight of the shelf and the speaker without being distorted by that weight. This has been known to happen. The alternative, as you've mentioned, is to wall mount a shelf above the TV.

If you have the speaker on a stand or shelf above the TV, you can use a pair of those wedge-shaped, rubber door stoppers, to angle the speaker down toward your ears.

As far as subwoofer placement is concerned, you'll find that is very subjective. Some manufactures recommend placing the sub near field (close to your seating), others recommend placing it in a corner. Many knowledgeable forum members recommend placing a sub midway down a side wall. The result is, I haven't got the faintest damned idea what to recommend. Doing a search on the forum for "sub crawl" should yield you one method of finding a good place for your sub. Basically, what it recommends is that you temporarily place your sub where you sit, play something (movie or music) that will give your sub a good workout, then you crawl around the room looking for a spot where the bass sounds best (clean, tight, not boomy, not missing).

Here are a bunch of tutorials about speaker calibration and subwoofer setup which may (or may not :confused:) help. At least they'll keep you off the streets for awhile ;).

AN INTRODUCTION TO TEST & CALIBRATION DVDS aka "Why the hell do I need one of these things?" (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=1851463&postcount=89) (To learn about DVE and AVIA, scroll down far enough to read "THE DIFFERENT DISCS AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES")

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter (http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/spl.htm)

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=578130&postcount=70)

Calibrating Your Home Theater System (http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.asp?p=415789&seqNum=4&rl=1) (this link is to page 4 of a 7 page article. Be sure to check all the pages for more info)

How To Set Up a Subwoofer (or Subwoofers) for Home Theater (http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/printer_560.shtml)

Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass (http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3418)

Common Subwoofer Set-Up Errors by Edward J M (http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SubwooferErrors.cfm)


Advice is wonderful. It helps add to what we research on our own. But take it with a grain of salt. Mine as well. :p Take the above statement. I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of members on this site would disagree with it. As do I. I would NEVER sacrifice the quality of my speakers to upgrade my electronics. I have seperates in my system (Anthem and Sherbourn) but at your price point, the ones mentioned already are fine. But...the areas that will improve the sound dramatically are the speakers and the room treatments with electronics being a distant third in the mix. I'm not saying that electronics don't make a difference. Of course they do. Just not nearly as dramatic as speakers and room treatments. Also, electronics come into play and are more important in 2 channel listening, or for critically listening to music. Watching movies in a HT system such as you describe in the room size you mention, the receiver you selected or frankly any receiver in the $1,000 more or less, price range will give equal sound quality. IMO always start with the best speakers you can afford and treat the room properly. I feel so strongly about the quality of speakers being the most important consideration that I (and many many others) often suggest that people invest in quality mains and a center and add the others later if there are budget concerns. Your budget will allow you to do fine, though, so I'd go with a budget receiver ($500-$1,000) a good DVD transport and invest the remaining money into speakers. Those speakers will stay with you forever. Electronics just keep getting cheaper and cheaper so when you finally do move to a larger setting, you can feel good knowing that your speakers can make the move and to purchase separates or more advanced electronics will cost you less (dollar for dollar) than they would today! But as I said, take this with a grain of salt. (but I just strongly disagree with the suggestion that you buy cheaper speakers just so you can buy seperates that you won't hear any sound improvement from in your particular application and room)

Keep in mind when positioning your speakers that in a 5.1 system they don't go behind the couch they go to the sides of the listening position aimed at the listening position not aimed to the front. so Floor standers or speakers on stands can work well there also you want your tweeters from ear level to about 24" above ear level. Also be sure you consider acoustic treatment of the room, makes a huge difference. though admitedly it is harder to do in a living room than a dedicated theater.

I can't see the pic either.
I have a credenza style cabinet for my components, with a 46XBR4.
I was using a Mirage Omnisatv2 center, which was low enough to place on the top of the cabinet without interfering with the bottom of the screen.
But I just started using an Energy RC-LCR for my center, which is higher by a few inches than the Mirage, so I had to raise the tv.
I just stacked some small shelves under the tv's pedestal that were just big enough in length and width to support the tv. I used just enough to raise it the few more inches I needed. The shelves are the same finish as the cabinet (dark cherry) and being behind the center speaker, can't really be seen.
However, something I'm considering is going to a local cabinet shop to have a shallow "box" made, about 2 1/2 inches high, which is all I need. Might be something for you to consider; I can't imaging it would cost much. A good strong material would be birch plywood, stained or painted to match the finish on the stand.
How much you need to raise your display will depend on what center speaker you choose.

Everyone, this is fantastic. Thank you SO MUCH!

I'm sorry about the photo issue. I'll try to get it straightened out right away.

atdamico: Thanks for the advice and the confidence boost re: shipped speakers. It really seems like the way to go price-wise, but it makes the auditioning much more difficult. But, if I can buy more speaker this way, then it should be a no-brainer.


Rijax and Jacksmyname: Those are great ideas. They're exactly what I need. And Rijax: Its true, I was planning on being up to no good tonight, but now I guess I'll stay home, "study" for my future as a hopeless AV fanatic, and be slightly sad because I'm still hearing sound from my TV's speakers.

You all are the greatest. Please keep any advice coming.

-Todd

Ooops! Sorry McCall...didn't mean to not thank you as well. You are so right. The room treatment is going to be a big deal (and one that I didn't even consider before I started researching on avsforum), and I have NO idea how I'm going to get it set up in my living room...

...If only there was a place that I could go to get all of my AV-related questions answered....

Hi all...

I changed the picutre out on the original post, and it should work now. Sorry for the "dead" link.

-Todd

Hi all...

I changed the picutre out on the original post, and it should work now. Sorry for the "dead" link.

-Todd

Can you hang the TV above the stand on the wall, and then put the center channel where you were going to put the TV?

It would of course be very easy to build a shelf, stained to match or commission someone to do it for you if you really want the TV on top of the stand.

Who makes your stand? Do they have a bracket, mount, or pole mount option like BDI?

RT - I highly reccomend Wharfedale speakers. All the brands suggested are great speakers but it really all comes down to your own preference, it'll be tough to audition all the brands suggested because there's not very many stores out there that carry a large selection. Most high end audio stores carry about 3-5 lines of speakers. So what it comes down to is which ones you feel most confident about and which ones fit your budget best.

What may be helpful is to hear why people choose the speakers they do. For me, I bought my speakers without auditioning. Why I chose my Wharfedale's was

1.) High satisfaction reviews from other owners
2.) The company has been around a very long time/Reputation
3.) The speakers were affordable at my price point
4.) I like the visual appeal of the speakers
5.) They are heavy
6.) Specifications were impressive

and I'm glad I made the decision I did. The speakers are great and I'm now a Wharfedale fan for life. They have a "warmer" sound than alot of speakers that I've listened to and I prefer this. I have a pair of similarly appointed Infinity studio monitor speakers as well, they have a "brighter" sound to them and I like them, I just prefer the Wharfedales. I've also owned some Paradigm monitor 7s, excellent speakers as well, but again I prefer the Wharfedales.

Good luck with your decision.

Skip the center altogether and put the cash into your mains. Most quality receivers will allow you to define a phantom center. As long as your viewers are not too far of axis, the phantom will work fine.

check out this http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-633-Cinema-XD,68,37,179.aspx

Everyone, I continue to be on my search, and your advice has been most informative. Because of the advice/opinions that I have read in this thread, and in others, I think I am changing direction slightly. Because I am in an apartment now, but still want something that I can take with me to a larger place when I move...and because I gather from the folks here that quality mains and center speakers are super-important...I am thinking that I should use my current budget to purchase ONLY the mains, a center, and +/- a subwoofer.

I DID go ahead and purchase a 3808 receiver, so now I am left with somewhere between 3K and 4K to purchase this 3.0 or 3.1 system. Assuming that I will add at least 2 more speakers to this when I move, I have a few questions:

1) Does this make sense? Will I be missing much in movies without the surrounds?
2) Yay or nay on the subwoofer?
3) Speaker recommendations at this price point?

As always, thanks so much for your advice!

-Todd

Todd, Im from the Boston area as well and recently went through the same quest that you are on. I visited a lot of dealers and would recommend you definetly check these places out. Also do check if the Denon 3808 supports 4 ohm speakers or not before you start auditioning speakers.

Here's the list of all the dealers in the area. I had a lot of help from the guys here and also had to do some digging up on internet to come up with these but it was worth the effort.

http://www.spearitsound.com/home.htm - they are in Cambridge, Carries Dali(i ended up with them), B&W, Paradigm etc
http://www.ensemble-hometheater.com/ - in Nashua, they carry B&W, Aerial, Theil, Paradigm
http://www.goodwinshighend.com/ in Waltham, they carry Dynaudio, Totem, Martin Logan among others.

http://www.fidelisav.com/news.html Carries Sonus Faber's and Focal JM Labs.

All of these dealers had been exceptional and you can really take out the time to sit and listen to products at length in their stores. Each speaker sounds so different that it would really be up to your individual taste on what you like. If you can, do visit all of these and carry your own demo material(cd/dvd) and listen to it. All the best!

Todd, Im from the Boston area as well and recently went through the same quest that you are on. I visited a lot of dealers and would recommend you definetly check these places out. Also do check if the Denon 3808 supports 4 ohm speakers or not before you start auditioning speakers.

Here's the list of all the dealers in the area. I had a lot of help from the guys here and also had to do some digging up on internet to come up with these but it was worth the effort.

http://www.spearitsound.com/home.htm - they are in Cambridge, Carries Dali(i ended up with them), B&W, Paradigm etc
http://www.ensemble-hometheater.com/ - in Nashua, they carry B&W, Aerial, Theil, Paradigm
http://www.goodwinshighend.com/ in Waltham, they carry Dynaudio, Totem, Martin Logan among others.

http://www.fidelisav.com/news.html Carries Sonus Faber's and Focal JM Labs.

All of these dealers had been exceptional and you can really take out the time to sit and listen to products at length in their stores. Each speaker sounds so different that it would really be up to your individual taste on what you like. If you can, do visit all of these and carry your own demo material(cd/dvd) and listen to it. All the best!

Daman S: Thanks for the tips. I'm going to hit some of these places on saturday and sunday this weekend.

Any thoughts on the idea of ignoring the surrounds for now? I feel like it will allow me to get higher quality mains & center (? subwoofer), but I wouldn't want to do that if it would cause me to NOT enjoy the ones I did purchase.

-Todd

Daman S: Thanks for the tips. I'm going to hit some of these places on saturday and sunday this weekend.

Any thoughts on the idea of ignoring the surrounds for now? I feel like it will allow me to get higher quality mains & center (? subwoofer), but I wouldn't want to do that if it would cause me to NOT enjoy the ones I did purchase.

-Todd I would agree with you about ignoring the surrounds for now Todd. You can go with a good 2.1 system(or 3.1) for now and then upgrade to a 5.1 when your budget allows.(Edit) As Steve mentioned HSU or SVS are very good options for subwoofers that can save you a few bucks too as against going with the primary speaker manufacturer's sub.(/Edit)

I'm on a similar path myself running a 4.1 system(though i have a center- just not the power to run it) and waiting to upgrade my amp and then get 2 more surround speakers so that i can run a 7.1 setup.

If I may suggest once you like a particular speaker you may also want to check out audiogon dot com as you can get some pretty good deal on items in mint condition there and save quite a few bucks in the process. You can also talk to the particular dealer to giving you decent discount prices. A lot of them might have some floor models that you might strike a bargain on as well.

Any thoughts on the idea of ignoring the surrounds for now? I feel like it will allow me to get higher quality mains & center (? subwoofer), but I wouldn't want to do that if it would cause me to NOT enjoy the ones I did purchase.

-Todd

That has always been my path.

Great 2.1, then 3.1, then add something from the lower line of the same brand for surrounds, or once you have determined your front 3, find the surrounds from aud**gon or that auction site :) The .1 from HSU or SVS

Daman gave you almost a who's who of B&M brands on his list of dealers.

I DID go ahead and purchase a 3808 receiver, so now I am left with somewhere between 3K and 4K to purchase this 3.0 or 3.1 system. Assuming that I will add at least 2 more speakers to this when I move, I have a few questions:

1) Does this make sense? Will I be missing much in movies without the surrounds?
2) Yay or nay on the subwoofer?
3) Speaker recommendations at this price point?

As always, thanks so much for your advice!

-Todd Mixed emotions. Just my opinion, but with 3K to 4K to spend, you could get a very good 5.1 (or even a 7.1 system) that, I feel comfortable in saying, would absolutely delight you. However, there is nothing wrong with spending that entire budget on a 3.1, and adding the surrounds later, if that's what you prefer.

1. Yes you will be missing much in the movies without the surrounds, but you won't realize it until you finally add the surrounds. Each speaker adds something worth having in a surround system.
2. "Yay" on the subwoofer for the reason mentioned above.
3. Like most everyone else, I'll mention the speakers I own, but you should factor in the "pride of ownership" bias that, whether acknowledged or not, we all have. However, I'll qualify that bias by saying I don't like 'em cuz I own 'em, I own 'em cuz I like 'em.

Rocket RS850s Mains (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=50.1) - Regularly $1999/pr., currently on sale for $1399 and free yellow freight shipping.
Rocket RSC200 "Bigfoot" center channel (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=100.1) - Regularly $599, currently on sale for $499 with free UPS shipping. For HT, the center channel is very important due to handling virtually all the dialog. If you'll do a search for "Bigfoot" here on the forum, you'll find that it is one of the most respected center channels available. It is certainly the best center I've ever heard.
RSS300 dipole surrounds (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=7.1) - Regularly $599/pr., currently on sale for $499.

Total for a 5.0 system = $2397 shipped (regularly $3197 + shipping). Add a second pair of RSS300 surrounds, or a pair of Direct radiating RS250s (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=2.1) for 7.0 and the total is $2896 (regularly $3796 - $3896). Don't when they'll end, but the sale prices are in effect for a limited time only.

That would leave you $1100 to $1600 for a good subwoofer. There are excellent ones availiable, in that range, from HSU (http://www.hsuresearch.com/), SVS (http://www.svsound.com/), Elemental Designs (eD) (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=2_41), Epik (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/Products.html), ACI (http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/titanxl/titanxl.htm), Axiom (http://www.axiomaudio.com/subwoofers.html), and others. AV123 (Rocket) has some new subwoofers coming that should be competitive, but have not yet been released.

Here are some rankings from Craigsub (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136), which will give you an idea of the relative performance of a number of subwoofers. I believe Craig is currently evaluating several Epik subs and will be getting an AV123 MFW-15 for evaluation sometime this week.

The 3808 is a very good receiver, and should have no trouble handling a 4 ohm load.

That has always been my path.

Great 2.1, then 3.1, then add something from the lower line of the same brand for surrounds, or once you have determined your front 3, find the surrounds from aud**gon or that auction site :) The .1 from HSU or SVS

Daman gave you almost a who's who of B&M brands on his list of dealers.

Seems like it'll be my path, too. This way, I can look forward to drooling over more speakers down the road. :D

So, for now, since my primary purpose will be using this setup for movies (though, I understand that I'm losing the surround features of blu ray and HD-DVD), would you recommend that I get the center now, or go with a 2.1 system? I know that the center channel can be expensive, so I am going to compromise my mains a bit, but if its for theater purposes, don't I really need that speaker.....?

Thanks,
-Todd

Mixed emotions. Just my opinion, but with 3K to 4K to spend, you could get a very good 5.1 (or even a 7.1 system) that, I feel comfortable in saying, would absolutely delight you. However, there is nothing wrong with spending that entire budget on a 3.1, and adding the surrounds later, if that's what you prefer.


Rijax: Thanks for the advice. With the prices there, its VERY tempting to go ahead with a 5.1 (don't think I'm up for 7.1 just yet), but I am sort of worried about "too many" speakers in a smaller space (if there is such a thing). I guess I'm torn...I have put a fair amount of money into this already, so maybe I should take advantage of the HD material by buying more speakers, but the flip side is that I can buy (presumably) nicer stuff if I concentrate my money into the front of the room. Clearly, though, more expensive doesn't mean better quality....

I'm sort of leaning toward the "good things come to those who wait" mentality re: the back speakers for now, though.

BTW, if I'm reading the website for the Rockets correctly, they're still on sale, but not available until February! That sort of waiting (despite the line above) might kill me....

-Todd

this is a ragin' deal:

http://theaudioinsider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=f14186cb3dff9cc0d93099f436c812bb

With your budget I'd be looking at going 5.1 unless you spend a lot of your time and energy listening to 2-channel material. Or you could go 3.1 for now and add rear speakers later. Maybe like the Salk LCR setup or wait for the new Dana variants.

Rijax: Thanks for the advice. With the prices there, its VERY tempting to go ahead with a 5.1 (don't think I'm up for 7.1 just yet), but I am sort of worried about "too many" speakers in a smaller space (if there is such a thing). I guess I'm torn...I have put a fair amount of money into this already, so maybe I should take advantage of the HD material by buying more speakers, but the flip side is that I can buy (presumably) nicer stuff if I concentrate my money into the front of the room. Clearly, though, more expensive doesn't mean better quality....

I'm sort of leaning toward the "good things come to those who wait" mentality re: the back speakers for now, though. Can't fault you one bit. All that matters is that you go the route with which you are comfortable, and end up with a system that delights you as much as mine delights me. :)

BTW, if I'm reading the website for the Rockets correctly, they're still on sale, but not available until February! That sort of waiting (despite the line above) might kill me....

-Todd Haven't been following the sale that closely, so you could be correct. Couldn't blame you if you weren't able to wait that long. There are certainly many worthwhile speakers out there that would please you.

Good luck, and good hunting.

Yeah, waiting 3 months won't happen.

Anyway, is something wrong with me...I want to get the most speaker that I can for my money, but I am going to hear some at a couple of stores this weekend, and my brother-in-law (feel free to attack his character) thinks I should find what I like, and then go order on the internet. I feel too guilty...I used to work in retail (granted, the items I sold cost less than the TAX on these items), and I can't do that. If someone helps me, I think I should buy from them. This is based on principle, but also I think that the customer support aspect is going to be important, too.

What do you guys think? (and, no...I'm not asking you to rationalize the internet purchase for me. I don't want to, but i'm going to go ahead and pay the higher price [and the tax] if I find a helpful sales person)

-Todd

Yeah, waiting 3 months won't happen.

Anyway, is something wrong with me...I want to get the most speaker that I can for my money, but I am going to hear some at a couple of stores this weekend, and my brother-in-law (feel free to attack his character) thinks I should find what I like, and then go order on the internet. I feel too guilty...I used to work in retail (granted, the items I sold cost less than the TAX on these items), and I can't do that. If someone helps me, I think I should buy from them. This is based on principle, but also I think that the customer support aspect is going to be important, too.

What do you guys think? (and, no...I'm not asking you to rationalize the internet purchase for me. I don't want to, but i'm going to go ahead and pay the higher price [and the tax] if I find a helpful sales person)

-Todd

I agree, if you are working with a salesperson to help you audition gear, ethically the sale belongs to him. However that doesn't mean that you can't negotiate the price, especially if you buy a full speaker package. Keep your options open and let the salesperson know that you also have your eye on other gear at a different store. There is 40-50% mark-up on high-end audio gear, so there is room in there for you to get a better price and the salesperson to get a decent commission.

Besides, many of the better brands sold at stores are not available on the internet, not new anyway.

To put my two cents in on your situation, I would also reccommend just using a receiver to start with and get the best speakers you can afford. You can always add an amp later when you have a larger space.

As for your shelf dilema, I recommend having a local wood worker / cabinet maker build you one. You could have it made from veneered plywood and stained to match your existing cabinet.

With the money you have left for speakers you might have a hard time telling the difference between your mains in a 2.1 system and a 5.1 system. That's assuming you get the same sub for each via the internet. Your two surrounds in the 5.1 wouldn't hurt your price much if you go that route and focus on your mains and center. I wouldn't get floor standers for surrounds as there just isn't enough sound material coming from these speakers in ANY movie. At best it's ambiance and fill effects, get timbre matched speakers across all five channels and you'll be golden (even with small surrounds).

Also, I'm sure you know this but you mention missing out on surround sound from the new formats (HD-DVD and BD) but ALL DVD movies (ok, that's a lie but basically true) are encoded with some form of 5.1 audio. So almost everything you watch will be 5.1, TV/DVD/XBOX/ETC.

Sure, you could wait on surrounds and a center but in that budget I'd bet you could build a speaker system that you'd be more than happy with. Yes, you could get some awesome 2.0/2.1 stuff (Aerial even :)) but you'd be missing that MOVIE experience until you upgraded the number of speakers to at least 4/5. Get a center channel that rivals or matches your L/R as that front sound stage is critical for movies, dialog happens in 99.86% of movies (percentage made up is also a lie).

Enjoy your search whatever path you choose but take your greatest amount of time listening to as many speakers as you can. They really are remarkable in how different they all sound compared to one another. No two are alike and no ONE is the best for any one person.

Besides, many of the better brands sold at stores are not available on the internet, not new anyway.

That's exactly what I was going to say, but with the added point that there are no AUTHORIZED dealers for many of the better B&M brands. There's quite a few shady online dealers that will tell you that they are "authorized" or that "of course their speakers are warrantied", but if the manufacturer doesn't list them as an authorized vendor...well...you rolls the dice...you takes your chances.


Scott

Yeah, waiting 3 months won't happen.

Anyway, is something wrong with me...I want to get the most speaker that I can for my money, but I am going to hear some at a couple of stores this weekend, and my brother-in-law (feel free to attack his character) thinks I should find what I like, and then go order on the internet. I feel too guilty...I used to work in retail (granted, the items I sold cost less than the TAX on these items), and I can't do that. If someone helps me, I think I should buy from them. This is based on principle, but also I think that the customer support aspect is going to be important, too.

What do you guys think? (and, no...I'm not asking you to rationalize the internet purchase for me. I don't want to, but i'm going to go ahead and pay the higher price [and the tax] if I find a helpful sales person)

-Todd Nope, nothing wrong with you, Todd. Many of the values I was taught as a youngster (humility, courtesy, honor, etc.) don't seem to get much respect anymore. It is refreshing to finds someone who still believes in them (you could spoil this whole thing by telling me you're over 60 :()

Todd, regarding surrounds, I'd recommend at least getting something relatively cheap for now. Look at some smaller bookshelfs on stands maybe. Something you can move to bedroom or wherever later. I do think you miss quite a bite in HT mode without the surrounds. Not critical stuff mind you, but the little details can really add a lot.

I'll second the suggestions to check out ********** and theaudioinsider.com. Great speakers and great values. I don't think you have to worry nearly as much about exhaustive researching/listening if you are mostly talking HT. Also think the 3808 was a good decison vs separates now. You can always add an amp when you want to upgrade. (and you will ;))

Nope, nothing wrong with you, Todd. Many of the values I was taught as a youngster (humility, courtesy, honor, etc.) don't seem to get much respect anymore. It is refreshing to finds someone who still believes in them (you could spoil this whole thing by telling me you're over 60 :()

Not over 60, but half way there!! :eek:

I'm glad I got started on this journey semi-early, so I have (hopefully) many more years to spend money...I mean, find the greatest speakers possible:D

Thanks for the help...I'm still reading, but the ideas and advice are AWESOME!
Please keep them coming!

-Todd

If you really are interested in running a 5.1 setup, look for relatively cheaper speakers(in the 300-500$ range you can get lots of good choices) and up your budget by that much. You can even look at getting these second hand so you'll have lot of options there. The surrounds don't need to timber match the front's either(for now), and as droht said you can move them to bedroom later or even sell them off.

It's very much possible that you'll get the bug to listen to the sound in 5.1 very soon so i would say keep your options open and happy listening this weekend. Do let us know what your impressions were from all the listenings. Lot of these dealers might be closed on sunday so make sure you call them up beforehand to check.

If you really are interested in running a 5.1 setup, look for relatively cheaper speakers(in the 300-500$ range you can get lots of good choices) and up your budget by that much. You can even look at getting these second hand so you'll have lot of options there. The surrounds don't need to timber match the front's either(for now), and as droht said you can move them to bedroom later or even sell them off.

It's very much possible that you'll get the bug to listen to the sound in 5.1 very soon so i would say keep your options open and happy listening this weekend. Do let us know what your impressions were from all the listenings. Lot of these dealers might be closed on sunday so make sure you call them up beforehand to check.

so, it sounds like what i'm hearing (at least from some) is that I will be sorry if I don't have SOMETHING in the back. To that end, I could get nice mains and CC with a subwoofer, and (at least for now) skimp on the surrounds? It just sort of seems counter-intuitive to take any extra money (even if it is small in comparison to my whole budget) and put them toward something that I know I won't want to keep. Clearly, I'll listen to speakers this weekend both in 3.1 and 5.1, and see how much I think I need it, but I'd still be interested in the opinions of you guys....

So, here's the actual question: In a relatively small space (see first original post), is it better to spend 3-4K on fronts, CC and sub, or is it better to spend 2500-3500 on those, and save 500 for some (perhaps) "less good" surrounds (that will certainly not match the rest of the system)?

Of course, I could just suck it up and really aim for 5.1 with my budget, and not have the fronts be TONS better than the surrounds. But I sort of like the idea of getting nicer stuff, and having an upgrade to look forward to sooner than later.... I'm weird, I know...

-Todd

So, here's the actual question: In a relatively small space (see first original post), is it better to spend 3-4K on fronts, CC and sub, or is it better to spend 2500-3500 on those, and save 500 for some (perhaps) "less good" surrounds (that will certainly not match the rest of the system)?
-Todd

You can always buy mint used gear for the rear and resell it later and not lose much money. At one point in my progression I bought 3 Paradigm Studio 40's for $1200 for the front 3 of my theater from one of the used gear sites. I used them for about 2 years and sold them for $1200. Another example is amps...my amps are easily worth today what I bought them for, again, mint used.

Also, in regards to your other concern, this way the time and stock invested dealer makes money from you on the mains, and you perhaps can pickup the rears for cheaper. BTW, my personal take on audition versus buy is if I need to audition at a B&M store, I will buy from a B&M store, unless they are not willing to be at least somewhat competitive.

A couple of other questions....

As I said, I'm going to hit a few places today, and hopefully sunday (depending on what's open). So,

1) It sounds like I should expect any higher end dealer (B&M) to negotiate the price somewhat. As Steve_D pointed out, I might not get them down to the internet price, but somewhere in the ballpark. Right? If a salesperson tells me that they can't negotiate price at all, am I getting screwed?

2) Any other things I need to be sure to pick up when/if I buy speakers? Cables, and connections, for sure, but any other stuff? Remember, I am completely green here, and have nothing at home in the way of calibration instruments, etc.

Thanks!

-Todd

Todd,

All the dealers i gave you the list of have been willing to negotiate their prices. As an FYI if you end up liking the Dali Helicon's they have a newer version coming out(called MarkII) and the salesperson at Spearit was willing to mark off 20% of the current in stock version over the phone. All the other dealer's have been willing to do at least 10-15% to start with.

When it comes to cables, its a highly debatable point as some folks prefer high end cables that would cost you a lot of your budget while other's prefer the regular stuff. You might want to look at getting cables and interconnects from monoprice dot com or bluejeanscable dot com. They have great quality products without costing you half of your speaker budget.

Also i would recommend you get either AVIA or DVE dvd's for calibration of Audio and Video. You would also need a SPL meter from local radioshack to set up the audio properly.

I doubt that anyone will be as excited about this as I am, but I am about to jump out of my skin, so I am dying to tell the forum what I've auditioned so far. I only went to 2 stores today, and it took about 5.5 hours. Basically, based on what I've heard, I think I'd prefer to go with 5.1 over 3.1 IF I can stay close to my budget. That being said, I'm thinking that I should still put most of my money into the fronts, and then with what's left, I'll fill in the surrounds (knowing that I'm not getting as much speaker as I might want later).

So far, this is what I've heard:

*era (D10 mains, D5 center, D5 satellites)
*B&W (704 mains, CM Center, CM1 surrounds)
*Sonus Faber (Concerto Domus, Center Domus)
*This store brought out some Krell, but I never actually heard them.

*I'm heading back to one of the stores mid-week to hear the Dynaudio Focus series.

My initial impressions are that I liked everything that i heard, but certainly loved some more than others. For example, the era speakers were really nice, but (and I don't know the word for this), but they were a little (pardon the word, because its not exactly right) harsh. I'm just thinking it might be hard for me to listen to them after a while. The sales guy (who was awesome, by the way) told me that I might find the D14 mains to be more to my liking, so he's going to have those available for demo when I go back for the Dynaudio audition.

But, the dilemma now is that i absolutely LOVED the sonus faber domus/concerto speakers, which I saw/heard at the 2nd store. I used them (3 only...see below) for theater and for music, and I can't even describe how awesome they were (at least to me). Again....I don't know the right terms, but they were "softer," seemed fuller, filled the room with "warm" sound, and when I closed my eyes, two things happened. First, I couldn't tell where the speakers were located in the room, and second...I could have sworn that Neil Young was sitting 4 feet away from me. I mean, they were GREAT.

I know these are the "lower-end" of that company's products, but even still, they are more than I wanted to spend. Then the guy did something that was probably a little bit unfair....he started switching back and forth between the B&Ws and the Sonus speakers... He took the time to get the sonus speakers calibrated exactly right, and then just started switching. I think the sonus is probably a better speaker, but OF COURSE it sounded better because he had tweaked the system to maximize how great they sounded. I asked him about this, and he sort of blew me off. That made me a little bit skeptical, but overall, I think the store and the guy were fine.

Anyway, so here I am...listening to these speakers that are great, but if I want to get them, I'll have to go 3.0 (maybe get a sub from an internet dealer), and do nothing in the back (and still be over-budget). Crap. Anyway, I told him that I didn't want to pay retail for whatever I bought, and he told me that he could come down on the prices for the B&W speakers, but not the sonus. Then he and the owner went off on some "script" about how the dollar is doing worse against the Euro, and yadda yadda yadda.... Also, he was really trying to get me to buy something today, even though I told him that it was my first day auditioning speakers, and I wanted to look around. This is in contrast to the first guy who STRONGLY encouraged me to take a LOT of time to decide. In fact, I even told him (guy at the first store) that I wanted to purchase speakers sometime in the next 7-10 days. He told me that he'd gladly sell me something whenever I wanted, but he'd advise spending more time figuring things out...WOW!!! Sadly, though, his store doesn't sell the sonus speakers.

Both stores so far have nice "trade-up" policies, so if I do buy "sub-optimal" surrounds, I can go back later, and get 100% of what I paid on a trade-in.

I guess this is a longwinded way to say the following:
*I now realize how much I've been missing.
*My favorite spekers (so far) were the sonus faber concerto domus, but i'd have to give up the rears for now...(unless I can find someone to come down on the price).
*I'd much rather buy from guy #1, and maybe he'll have something that I like even more than the sonus, but we'll see. (His store carries: Avalon, Dynaudio, era, Linn, Magico, Martin Logan, Quad, REL, Rockport, Totem, and Verity Audio). Magico, Quad, and Rockport are clearly out of my price range, but among the others...is there anything that I should specifically ask to hear? As of now, I'm just scheduled to hear the larger era and the Dynaudios.

I have about a million more thoughts racing through my head, but I have to hop back on the other threads to see what I can see about these speakers...

-Todd

It still seems to me that you're somewhat in the land of diminishing returns wrt speakers. There are a lot of ID speakers that you could get for well under budget that would give any of the ones you listened to a run for their money. For instance, the Dana 630 ($349/pr) beat the B&W 805 ($2300) in a recent blind shootout. The B&W has more snob appeal, but performance? No doubt it is a great speaker but if you can get 95% of the performance for 20% of the price, is it worth it?

If you're going from zero to this system, almost anything would float your boat. I went from tv speakers to Panasonic HTIB to my current setup (about $2100 for 5.1 speakers). I'm stopping upgraditis now as I've got other things to spend my money on (new racing transmission), and the sonic performance is at a level that I'm very happy with. That really is the key. If you can be happy in the ears and in the pocket book with your system, it doesn't really matter what label is on the speaker.

I haven't heard them, but from what I've read Sonus Faber make some fantastic speakers so you apparently have good taste. However, one thing to watch with theser is that they are 4 ohm speakers. I believe that the Denon 3808 is only rated down to 6 ohms. This doesn't mean that the denon won't play them at all, but it is going to be pushing the receiver harder than it was designed for. You may be perfectly fine though you just have to realize that you would be running an experiment of sorts. The way around this would be to buy an external amp. Good luck with your search.

Todd, i know the feeling! It's great that you could finally audition some speakers and found something you really liked. I had a similar experience with the Sonus faber's when i was auditioning and i really liked them. They were on top of my list along with the Dali's.

The room where i listened to them however was acoustically very well treated so just on a hunch i asked the sales guy to move them to the next room and they felt very flat there. I'm not trying to discourage you here but just sharing my personal experience and would recommend you try to listen to them in another environment. If you liked how Sonus Faber's sounded, both Dali and Dynaudio would be close. On a side note where i listened to the Sonus fabers(Fidelis) the person was willing to mark down at least 10% off the retail price. Not sure if you listened in the same store or not or if their policy has changed.

Great write-up, RT.

I only went to 2 stores today, and it took about 5.5 hours. Basically, based on what I've heard, I think I'd prefer to go with 5.1 over 3.1 I thought you might feel that way once you heard what a surround system can do. :)

...the era speakers were really nice, but (and I don't know the word for this), but they were a little (pardon the word, because its not exactly right) harsh. I'm just thinking it might be hard for me to listen to them after a while. The word "harsh" is just fine. The term "bright" is also used to negatively describe the tonal quality you experienced. Sometimes "forward" is used in that same context, but IMHO that is a misuse of the word.

To me, the term " forward" (as opposed to "laid back") simply implies that you are feeling very close to the performance. In other words, you feel you're in the first row, rather than being back a few rows. To me, your "Neil Young was sitting 4 feet away from me" comment, implies a "forward" speaker.

I happen to love the "forward" characteristic (others don't), and have been known to fall flat on my nose due to leaning forward, arms outstretched, in an attempt to kiss Diana Krall who I'd have sworn was right there in front of me, cuz I was sure I could feel her breath. :o

Then the guy did something that was probably a little bit unfair....he started switching back and forth between the B&Ws and the Sonus speakers... He took the time to get the sonus speakers calibrated exactly right, and then just started switching. I think the sonus is probably a better speaker, but OF COURSE it sounded better because he had tweaked the system to maximize how great they sounded. I asked him about this, and he sort of blew me off. That made me a little bit skeptical... As well it should. One of the downsides to auditioning in a B&M is that you have little control over how things are set up, and can be at the mercy of salesperson who, shall we say, has goals that differ, slightly, from yours.

This is in contrast to the first guy who STRONGLY encouraged me to take a LOT of time to decide. In fact, I even told him (guy at the first store) that I wanted to purchase speakers sometime in the next 7-10 days. He told me that he'd gladly sell me something whenever I wanted, but he'd advise spending more time figuring things out...WOW!!! WOW Indeed. This is a salesperson to stick by, if possible.

It still seems to me that you're somewhat in the land of diminishing returns wrt speakers. There are a lot of ID speakers that you could get for well under budget that would give any of the ones you listened to a run for their money. For instance, the Dana 630 ($349/pr) beat the B&W 805 ($2300) in a recent blind shootout. The B&W has more snob appeal, but performance? No doubt it is a great speaker but if you can get 95% of the performance for 20% of the price, is it worth it? Some excellent points, IMHO, worth considering and with which I heartily agree. However, if you still feel that buying from a B&M works best for you, then that's what you should do.

I had a similar experience with the Sonus faber's when i was auditioning and i really liked them. They were on top of my list along with the Dali's.

The room where i listened to them however was acoustically very well treated so just on a hunch i asked the sales guy to move them to the next room and they felt very flat there. Another downside to auditioning in a B&M is that you are not hearing the speakers in your room, with your equipment. Next to the speakers themselves, the room (dimensions, furnishings, surfaces, etc.) will have the most profound affect on how your system sounds.

Relax and enjoy the hunt. :)

Some excellent points, IMHO, worth considering and with which I heartily agree. However, if you still feel that buying from a B&M works best for you, then that's what you should do.



Absutively. Buying ID is not for everyone. And there are a number of ways to slice and dice the shopping/listening thing. For me personally, if I spend a lot of time at a certain store with a certain salesperson, assuming they have something I like I'll give them my business. Of course one shouldn't feel compelled to spend money just because a salesperson did their job, but there is something to be said about building a relationship with a vendor. You can do that in the ID world as well.

I have a local B&M store that I use for smaller bits (stands, cables, etc) but my speakers and electronics have been ID because that has worked for me. Thankfully I haven't had to do too much churning (only one set of speakers returned after audition and one receiver sent back to a local chain) due to a lot of research, but no amount of reading can substitute for listening.

It sounds like all the choices presented here are winners as long as you like them. Just always good to consider your options. I locked myself into a receiver based on reviews and features, but didn't really analyze how I *felt* about the piece. Maybe I'm odd, but there is more than specs to me. I like to find things that I bond with. It is performance, look, feel, ergonomics, and the vibe of the product *and* the dealer and manufacturer. My hope is to buy what I really love then use the crap out of it for many years to come instead of buying something I "kinda like" then flipping it ever year or two. So far that has worked (finally) with my bass guitars...8 years and counting with the same pair of Zon 5-strings. A record for me ;)

http://bestsmileys.com/signs15/25.gif Like you, my ID experience has been terrific with few bumps along the road. B&M and ID each have their strengths and weaknesses. It pretty much comes down to what floats your boat. In general, ID floats mine. :)

Thanks everyone...Tomorrow, I'm planning on going to one of the few stores that is open on sundays in boston.

I'm planning on hearing some paradigm speakers, perhaps totem, and perhaps Dana. I'll keep you posted.

This is more fun than a roller-coaster....

-Todd

Okay, well....today's listening excursion got side tracked (much to my chagrin).

So, my next scheduled day to audition speakers is on wednesday, and that's when I'm going back to see the guy from above that I really liked. I'm going to ask him to show me at least three setups:

*era: D14 mains, D4 center and D4 surrounds
*Dynaudio: Focus 220 mains, 220c center, and 110 surrounds (maybe 140's in the back)
*Totem: Sttaf mains, but not sure which center and mains...

I have decided that (as much as I love the sonus faber speakers) I cannot buy from that 2nd guy (see above). I'm hoping that something that I'm going to see on wednesday will match or exceed what I heard with the sonus speakers. We'll see...

-Todd

Hey all.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input and advice. I just bought what I think is a great start for my speaker setup. I went with Dynaudio, and bought a 5.0 system....

Focus 220s up front,
Focus 200c for the center, and
Focus 110's for the back.

I'm short a subwoofer for now, but this was all my budget would allow at this point. I'm hoping to get a nice subwoofer to go with this after the new year. My dealer suggested the REL T2, which seems okay. Also thinking about SVS and HSU which I've read about on the forum.

Anyway, my speakers are going to arrive (hopefully) by the end of the week. Then, I'm leaving town for 4 days. Should I leave something playing while I'm gone to "break them in," or is that not really necessary?

Thanks again, for everything.

-Todd

Congrats Todd! Be sure to stop by and let us know how you like them. Pictures are required! :D Some folks believe in speaker break-in, some don't. Do what you think is best. Leaving them running won't hurt. It's debatable if it will help. Enjoy!