Hi guys,

I recently found a good deal on some +RW's, so I bought them thinking there was no difference from -RW's.

Well, it turns out I can high-speed copy to the dvd, but I can't high-speed copy back to the hdd (Pio640 or Pio650).

Am I doing something wrong, or is that true?

There doesn't seem to be any option to initialize in any different way than whatever is the default, so I'm guessing it's video mode?

Hi guys,

I recently found a good deal on some +RW's, so I bought them thinking there was no difference from -RW's.

Well, it turns out I can high-speed copy to the dvd, but I can't high-speed copy back to the hdd (Pio640 or Pio650).

Am I doing something wrong, or is that true?

There doesn't seem to be any option to initialize in any different way than whatever is the default, so I'm guessing it's video mode?
The Pio 640 (650 too?) can't HS copy from DVD to HDD except in 2 instances:

1. Using the Backup Copy function in the Copy menu. This doesn't give you an editable copy on the HDD, but it's great for copies since they not only HS-copy, they come out Finalized... no further steps to take.

2. Using a disc initialized in VR mode. With a VR-mode disc, you can HS copy to the HDD whether the disc is finalized or not. This works for -R discs, haven't tried any other disc type, but in the Pios, -RW discs are auto-initialized in VR-mode unless you change that in the setup menu. You could use the Disc Setup > Initialize menu on other types of discs and see if the HS copy is possible with those also once they're in VR-mode?

Fred, you didn't list your hardware, so I'll give the take on Panasonics. The E85H and the EH55 copy dvd-r to hdd only in real time. DVD-RAM is copied at high speed, which is why I use -RAM so much, for archiving and for tranferring from one dvdr to another. For the E100H, which does not include a menu option, the dvd to hdd can be accomplished by connecting cables output to input, then HDD-RECORD and DVD-PLAY, in real time, of course.

Fred, I personaly stay away from the +RW format. It is nice in that it does not have to be finalized to play in dvd players(at least all mine), but it acts very WEIRD when trying to use the search function on all my dvd players. For example on my Sony dvd player search x2 and 1 work fine, but 2 which I use all the time, skips 5 minutes for each frame(less than each second). WAY to fast, normally 2 search speed takes 8 seconds for a regular comercial break. With +RW disc 8 seconds takes me to practacly the end of the program! P.S. I use a Panasonic es15/25/EZ17 to do the recording. Not sure if that makes a diff. and also finalizing(they call it "creating a top menu") has no effect on the search speed.

The Pio 640 (650 too?) can't HS copy from DVD to HDD except in 2 instances:

1. Using the Backup Copy function in the Copy menu. This doesn't give you an editable copy on the HDD, but it's great for copies since they not only HS-copy, they come out Finalized... no further steps to take.

2. Using a disc initialized in VR mode. With a VR-mode disc, you can HS copy to the HDD whether the disc is finalized or not. This works for -R discs, haven't tried any other disc type, but in the Pios, -RW discs are auto-initialized in VR-mode unless you change that in the setup menu. You could use the Disc Setup > Initialize menu on other types of discs and see if the HS copy is possible with those also once they're in VR-mode?
I tried a -RW disc in my Pio 640 (don't have any +RW), and it worked the same as a -R disc.

Initialized the -RW in VR-mode, recorded short segment to it, copied it back in high-speed (HS) to the HDD. Then, I finalized it and tried the Copy to HDD again, and it HS copied again.

So, a -R or a -RW will HS copy to a Pioneer's HDD, whether Finalized or not.

My suspicion, so far (I'm still trying to figure this out, myself) is that whether or not a given disc will allow hs copying when you put it into an hdd recorder, depends on what machine that disc came from (rather than what kind of disc it is- dvd-ram is the exception that seems to have the most universal capability across machines that support dvd-ram). The ideal case is if the disc was recorded on that very hdd machine (or another machine of identical model, I suppose). I'm thinking that machine will leave a transitional directory (that tracks all of your edits on the disc and such) that will enable the "deluxe" features such as hs copying, visible chapters, etc. If that directory is nonexistent or not in a recognizable format (as if the disc was made on a different machine), then you don't get access to the extra features. The machine will only see what was written in the "finalized" directory (you only get what is in the standard dvd menu screen).

For instance, I can burn and finalize a dvd-rw on my Panasonic ez-17, but when I put that disc in my Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder, it can only read it from the top menu (essentially, what you see with a commercial dvd title) and no discrete access to the titles on the disc (such that you could select a title and issue a hs dub command on it).

If I burn and finalize a dvd-r on the Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder, I can browse the contents of the disc from either the traditional dvd menu or from the "editing/navigation" browser that is native to the Toshiba machine. Hence, I can select a title, call up the special menu, and access various editing/dubbing functions because of the latter condition. My theory is that the Toshiba reads "another" directory that it put there when I was interactively putting content on the disc. If it was a directory made from a different brand of recorder (such as the Panasonic), it probably couldn't read it (and vice versa). So all I would get is the classic/basic dvd menu (that is only intended to pick a single title to play in realtime).

Hi guys,

I recently found a good deal on some +RW's, so I bought them thinking there was no difference from -RW's.

Well, it turns out I can high-speed copy to the dvd, but I can't high-speed copy back to the hdd (Pio640 or Pio650).

Am I doing something wrong, or is that true?

There doesn't seem to be any option to initialize in any different way than whatever is the default, so I'm guessing it's video mode?

I'll second what wabjxo said. I have a Pio 640, and HS copy from -RWs all the time, to the HDD, in an editable format. It lets you make a copy list from the titles on the disc. I wonder if you might have set your DVDR to initalize RW discs in Video Mode, without realizing it? You have that option, but VR mode IS the default. The only other thing I would note is that Pios prefer -R media, and allow more functions with it. The only +R media I use are DLs. They record in HS, about 4x, but when finalized their fastest FF speed is rather slow. -RWs record at about 4x, IIRC.

I'll second what wabjxo said. I have a Pio 640, and HS copy from -RWs all the time, to the HDD, in an editable format. It lets you make a copy list from the titles on the disc. I wonder if you might have set your DVDR to initalize RW discs in Video Mode, without realizing it? You have that option, but VR mode IS the default. The only other thing I would note is that Pios prefer -R media, and allow more functions with it. The only +R media I use are DLs. They record in HS, about 4x, but when finalized their fastest FF speed is rather slow. -RWs record at about 4x, IIRC.

Well that's the thing ... usually I use -RW's with no problemo with my 640 and 650, but for the life of me, when I put in a +RW, and go to initialize, I don't see any option to change to either Video mode or VR mode. It just says something like "+R/RW" and the VR and Video option is greyed out.

It will HS copy to the disc, but not back to the hdd. Bummer.

I was just wondering if it was just me, or is that the nature of +RW...

Thanks guys.

Well that's the thing ... usually I use -RW's with no problemo with my 640 and 650, but for the life of me, when I put in a +RW, and go to initialize, I don't see any option to change to either Video mode or VR mode. It just says something like "+R/RW" and the VR and Video option is greyed out.

It will HS copy to the disc, but not back to the hdd. Bummer.

I was just wondering if it was just me, or is that the nature of +RW...

Thanks guys.
Well, your experience with +RW prob. confirms that the plus format can't be used in a VR-mode. It is a different standard than Video mode, so now we know for sure.

The Pio 640 manual says +RW and -RAM "can also be initialized as a way of erasing the entire disc" so the Video/VR-mode options don't apply.

By the way, I tried my test -RW disc initialized in the Pio 640 for VR-mode and it isn't recognized by my Philips 3575, either Finalized or not. I had to Format the disc to use it again in the 3575.

Well, your experience with +RW prob. confirms that the plus format can't be used in a VR-mode. It is a different standard than Video mode, so now we know for sure.

On my cheapo SV2000/WV10D6 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=925607) (link to review thread) - the DVD recording format is +VR.
I use DVD+RW (Office Depot and Maxell - both are Ritek 004) for all of my recordings, without any problems.

The DVD+RW recordings do NOT need to be Finalized -
in fact that option is NOT available (not shown).
If I Edit the DVD+RW recording - then the option is "Make Edits Compatible" (Finalize option is not shown).

On page 24 of the manual (pdf on-line - http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/WV10D6.pdf )
"Information on DVD recording
This unit can record to DVD+RW, DVD-RW, DVD+R
and DVD-R discs.
DVD+R/DVD-R discs can only be recorded to once.
DVD+RW/DVD-RW discs can be recorded to and
erased many times.
This unit will record DVD+VR mode automatically.
DVD-RW/DVD-R disc will be recorded in the
DVD+VR mode automatically in this unit."

and in the Specs - page: 76
"Recording format: DVD+VR format
Recordable discs:
DVD+Rewritable, DVD+Recordable
DVD-Rewritable, DVD-Recordable (+VR mode only)"

+VR format is DIFFERENT than VR-mode.

Wiki says (more info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vr_mode)):

"DVD-VR & DVD+VR

There are two quite different application formats commonly known as VR mode.

1) DVD-VR was established by the DVD Forum and can be found on DVD-RW and DVD-RAM.

2) DVD+VR is the creation and responsibility of Philips Electronics and is seen on their DVD+RW recorders."

Man, this stuff is confusing! :o Let us hope that whatever hi-density recordable format is to supersede this dvd mania is far more simple and organized.

+VR format is DIFFERENT than VR-mode.

Wiki says (more info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vr_mode)):

"DVD-VR & DVD+VR

There are two quite different application formats commonly known as VR mode.

1) DVD-VR was established by the DVD Forum and can be found on DVD-RW and DVD-RAM.

2) DVD+VR is the creation and responsibility of Philips Electronics and is seen on their DVD+RW recorders."


Sorry, doesn't the Wikipedia entry say +VR is one of the VR modes?
The other being (explicitly) -VR?
(obviously -VR and +VR are different)

Well that's the thing ... usually I use -RW's with no problemo with my 640 and 650, but for the life of me, when I put in a +RW, and go to initialize, I don't see any option to change to either Video mode or VR mode. .

Selecting auto-initialize as either VR mode, or Video Mode, is in the setup menu.

Let us hope that whatever hi-density recordable format is to supersede this dvd mania is far more simple and organized.Too late. What we got is the format war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray... :(

Well isn't the correct choice clear? :p

Don't start.

We don't want this forum closed down, too. ;)

Don't start.

We don't want this forum closed down, too. ;)

I support De Blu-H-Ray... :D

Selecting auto-initialize as either VR mode, or Video Mode, is in the setup menu.

I went back and took another look... you only have those options for -R/RW... not for +R/RW..

I went back and took another look... you only have those options for -R/RW... not for +R/RW..

It's a licensing thing. DVD+RW is not a DVD Forum approved format, so cannot use Video mode (or -VR mode for that matter) - so Philips invented the "other" VR-Mode +VR that tries to combine the features of Video and -VR modes....

see - DVD formats - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Formats)


" Application Formats
VR Mode (aka Video Recording): This is a new format that allows editing/deleting titles and getting the total of space of deleted titles back/recording of copy once broadcasts/defect management. Used by DVD-RAM (DVD-RAM only uses this format) and DVD-RW. Because it is a newer format than DVD Video, it will only playback in modern DVD Players that support it.

Video mode This is the standard DVD Video mode format, the same format DVD films come in. Because the DVD Video format was invented before DVDs were recordable it doesn't allow editing on the disc, doesn't support defect management (so not as robust for continuous everyday recording and wiping), if you delete a title you may not get the space back without completely erasing the disc, and needs a finalise step to play elsewhere. As it is the same format as commercial DVD films, there is a good chance it will work in most DVD Players. Can be used on DVD-RW and DVD-R discs, never used DVD-RAM. Most (but not all) recorders that use DVD-RW will give you choice of VR mode or Video mode.

+VR Introduced by Philips for use on DVD+RW. The idea was to keep compatibility with the DVD Video format so it could be played elsewhere, but try and introduce some features as found in the VR mode used on DVD-RW/DVD-RAM. DVD+RW normally always uses this mode in set-top recorders. It doesn't need a separate finalise step to play in other DVD recorders, it is actually finalised just done in the background but makes it bit easier to use, i.e. you can't forget to do it but it does put extra wear on the disc as the same area of the disc is updated every time it is used. Due to DVD-Video not being able to take advantage of defect management and the extra overheads of background finalising after each edit or recording, the +VR mode has always been the least reliable, and the editing features may be missing on some DVD recorders to make it more robust.

Because Video Mode and VR mode are Forum standards, they are only used when recording to DVD approved formats i.e. DVD-RAM/DVD-RW/DVD-R discs. DVD+RW isn't approved by the DVD Forum so can't get a license to use the above modes, hence Philips introducing their own +VR mode, so DVD+RW gets +VR and generally they are not mixed.

However, many cheaper recorders are mixing these formats up now and typically this means not bothering to get the recorder approved by the DVD verification labs and so not paying the appropriate licence fee or reaching a certain level of quality or compatibility, and so just use +VR mode on DVD-RW and DVD+RW. You can tell these by the lack of the DVD-Video logo. "