Greetings,

For a few years now CBS Sports has been transitioning to NY for in game updates in a frustrating way. I live in Atlanta but also have experienced it in other states. The feed actually drops from 5.1 to 2.0 shortly before the in game update. On my receiver this causes a rather abrupt drop in audio during the transition. If a major play happens before they transition they bring it back to 5.1. This can cause these situations to happen 5-10 times an hour. I’ve seen this issue in NFL, CFB, and NCAA games. The issue has been discussed in multiple threads before but it was always described as audio problems. Since I think its 80% clear this is a deliberate thing CBS is doing I wanted to start this thread to find out why they transition this way vs. other network ways of doing it. See some thread links below when the issue has come up before:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929380
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=922679
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11901508&postcount=11

I'll try and remember to bump this before NFL action this weekend.

The studio can not pass 5.1, when the studio takes control of the game feed is when it goes to 2.0.

I get a very brief dropout on CBS when they do the transition, nothing too major. Fox drops to 480i, but they don't change the audio so it's continuous. Pick your poison, a brief audio dropout or reduced PQ.

The studio can not pass 5.1, when the studio takes control of the game feed is when it goes to 2.0.Bing. Thought this was pretty well known.

On a related note, how come Fox doesn't have HD highlights from CBS games?

FOX probably hasn't paid for the HD recording equipment to record CBS games. They'd also have to sideconvert from 1080i to 720p -- more equipment and $.

When CBS switches from 5.1 to 2.0, does the volume drop dramatically for everyone else? If I'm listening to a game at normal volume in 5.1, it becomes barely audible when it switches to 2.0. When it switches back to 5.1, the volume returns to normal. It's very irritating.

When CBS switches from 5.1 to 2.0, does the volume drop dramatically for everyone else? If I'm listening to a game at normal volume in 5.1, it becomes barely audible when it switches to 2.0. When it switches back to 5.1, the volume returns to normal. It's very irritating.

Yes it IS very irritating. And, for me, it only happens on CBS football. Nothing else. I'm not sure their excellent PQ is a fair trade-off...

The studio can not pass 5.1, when the studio takes control of the game feed is when it goes to 2.0.

I guess I should clarify my question then. Is CBS the only channel whose studio only can pass 2.0? I swear when Fox or ABC go to studios for updates it comes in as 2.0 on my speakers but the 5.1 Flag is still selected. This doesnt create the harsh drop that some recievers deal with. Is there a way to transition without dropping the 5.1 flag?

A minute complaint in the grand scheme of things, but on this board is seems par for the course. Curious to know if its possible.

I guess I should clarify my question then. Is CBS the only channel whose studio only can pass 2.0? I swear when Fox or ABC go to studios for updates it comes in as 2.0 on my speakers but the 5.1 Flag is still selected. This doesnt create the harsh drop that some recievers deal with. Is there a way to transition without dropping the 5.1 flag?

A minute complaint in the grand scheme of things, but on this board is seems par for the course. Curious to know if its possible.

It appears that CBS thoughts are that they want the sound passed to viewer just as it is being produced. So 5.1 pass as 5.1 and 2.0 sources pass as 2.0. FOX passes everything on the network as 5.1 whether it be real 5.1, an upmix, or otherwise. Each network does these thing slightly different, there are pros and cons to each way, and those have been debated in many thread here at AVS.

CBS's audio switching is irritating enough on its own. What makes it more irritating is that they can't seem to time the audio switch with the switch to the studio on a concurrent basis. The switch from 5.1 to 2.0 is ALWAYS well ahead of the actual shift to the studio. Is this audio switching process something that takes longer than the video shift to the studio which is why it's done early?

CBS's audio switching is irritating enough on its own. What makes it more irritating is that they can't seem to time the audio switch with the switch to the studio on a concurrent basis. The switch from 5.1 to 2.0 is ALWAYS well ahead of the actual shift to the studio. Is this audio switching process something that takes longer than the video shift to the studio which is why it's done early?

The audio switch occurs when the studio takes control of the game feed. Each game has a coordination room it goes through which is where commercials are added and typically billboards are played out as well. Normally, during the game they have the remote site (game) as the source they are sending out. When an update is about to happen the studio control room will take the remote site as a source and output the game feed. The coordination room will then switch from taking the game directly from the remote site to taking the game feed from the studio, this is when the audio change occurs. The video changes paths as well, but it is usually not noticeable*. In FOX's case this is when the feed drops from 720p to 480i.

Typically the change on CBS is not noticeable on the video side, however, on occasion I have seen the picture jump a few frames either back or ahead when the change happens.

From the thread title I thought this was going to about CBS switching to 2.0 temporarily while their studio is being updated.

:confused:

Wow, and all this time, I thought this was just me.

Count me in the "this is very annoying" camp.

Topic title edited.

Topic title edited.

For the record this happens on College Football broadcasts as well. And i believe College Basketball in years past.

The switch is done early becaue the update could be inserted at any time, depending on when there's a lull in the action. They basically follow the "better safe than sorry" practice.

Different networks do the integration process differently. All of ESPN/ABC remotes pass through a control room in Bristol before going to air. So in essence you arent watching a game feed you are watching the output of that particular control room. The benefit of this is that (1) you have a consistent video source (there's no timing problems or jumping) and (2) you have a consistent audio source, as again you arent listening to the game audio direct but rather the game audio through that control room. That means when ESPN integrates updates, cut-ins, etc they can easily drop these things in without there being any noticeable shift, because the output of the room passes through another surround encoder.

CBS may not be set up to pass 5.1 direct through the control room in this manner (though since they encode Dolby E I would imagine it should retain in the 2.0 metadata but I could be wrong). I would surmise that New York master control is making the switch between the remote feed to the studio control room so as to avoid always having to have a hot control room the entire game (like ESPN does). The reason the volume changes is the while CBS broadcasts in 5.1 the Dolby Digital dialnorm settings are managing the attenuation levels (which is why CBS 5.1 programming seems so much louder than everyone else), but when they switch to the studio, this process is bypassed reducing the attenuation to normal VU levels.

The switch is done early becaue the update could be inserted at any time, depending on when there's a lull in the action.

The switch is done early so studio has control of the feed and they can transition smoothly from game feed to highlights. It would be basically impossible for the switch to happen at the exact moment of the beginning of the update and still maintain the transition being done by the studio.

Different networks do the integration process differently. All of ESPN/ABC remotes pass through a control room in Bristol before going to air.

Aren't the ABC remotes handled in New York, not Bristol?

Aren't the ABC remotes handled in New York, not Bristol?
Very rarely anymore.

Old news perhaps, but CBS and the others all have a levels circus during the games. Either to highlights, commercials, or updates.
Keep the remote handy.
I've been led to believe it's local with OTA, but the sat feed is about the same. Up/Down/5.1/PL2 - it's a mess.

If you have some spare change maybe you could look into getting a new receiver? I know on my Onkyo 705 I've never noticed this.

I know on my Onkyo 705 I've never noticed this.
Never noticed a prolonged dropout, or the switch itself? Because you can even hear the switch on the SD broadcast.

From CBS:

The studio upgrade to 5.1 is in process. Not sure of the time line.

From CBS:

The studio upgrade to 5.1 is in process. Not sure of the time line.
Thanks Ken. Any word from Fox on when the LA TOC will be able to handle 720p?

From CBS:

The studio upgrade to 5.1 is in process. Not sure of the time line....but if I had to guess, March Madness would be it.

Thanks Ken. Any word from Fox on when the LA TOC will be able to handle 720p?
No, but I'll ask around.