Here's an announcement of the first DTV converter box approved by the govt... MSRP = $69.99. (http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/09/first_digital_tv_converter_box.php)

Here's an earlier announcement and pic of an RCA box. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/rcaconverter031307.htm)

I can't wait for the converter boxes. I hope that they offer 16x9, letter box, and pan & scan options.

That is good news and with 2 vouchers per household that will help, another way to go for anyone that purchases a new vcr or a dvd recorder, they also have the new tuners (ATSC), I see the cost are getting a little lower so for a few dollars more you add the ability to record!

The new digital tuner DVDR's are fine to use for watching the new channels, but as we all know? All the current models only output SD, not glorius HD. Not sure if that maters to you though.

The new digital tuner DVDR's are fine to use for watching the new channels, but as we all know? All the current models only output SD, not glorius HD. Not sure if that maters to you though.

My comment was directed to the people who are not upgrading there present analog TV's, they could utilize them (dvd recorders with ATSC tuners). To view the new signals.

The new digital tuner DVDR's are fine to use for watching the new channels, but as we all know? All the current models only output SD, not glorius HD.That is also true of these new converter boxes -- SD only. The title of the link wabjxo posted states this is the first "gvt. approved" converter box. This is significant because those $40 vouchers being handed out next year are only good for gvt. approved boxes. I don't have the link, off-hand, to the primary document with the specifications, but they list things the box must have, may have and cannot have. In the cannot have column are things like no HDMI or component outputs and no HD output. The gvt. clearly doesn't want to use their vouchers to subsidize the purchase of HiDef tuners for all those people who bought HD-Ready TV's with no digital tuners.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

Sorry, I didnt realize that. That stinks! I was hoping to score a "true HD" output tuner, for that exact purpose. You'd think the govt. could at least give the $40 credit, even if I would have to pay significantly more the box that I actually bought. Oh well, thats uncle Sam for you.

Here's a more recent article on other boxes that got approved:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6510331.html?industryid=47171

Oh well, thats uncle Sam for you.Uncle Sam is providing the credit for folks who are put out by the fact that their NTSC sets would otherwise no longer work.

Uncle Sam is providing the credit for folks who are put out by the fact that their NTSC sets would otherwise no longer work.

Even more so because they are imposing the cut off date so they can reuse part of the bandwidth and sell off the rest of it.

I seem to have read something about the $40 vouchers would be "limited" to those people who don't currently receive their TV by anything other than OTA. That is, if you have cable or satellite service, you won't get any vouchers???

I saw a TV report recently that said that ALL households qualify for 2 $40 vouchers. Reason being, although cable/satellite has +90% market penetration, many people only have it installed on one TV in their home and still rely on broadcast TV for 1 or more sets in their home.

Be aware that funds to cover the cost of these vouchers have already been approved based on an expectation of the number of households that are expected to apply. If more applications than anticipated are received, there is no guarantee that Congress will approve the additional funds to cover them. Therefore it's prudent to apply early.

Sorry, I didnt realize that. That stinks! I was hoping to score a "true HD" output tuner, for that exact purpose. You'd think the govt. could at least give the $40 credit, even if I would have to pay significantly more the box that I actually bought. Oh well, thats uncle Sam for you.If you have an HD-Ready set and are procrastinating over the purchase of a real HD tuner -- my advice is don't. Nobody makes and sells HD-Ready sets any more. The stand-alone HD tuner market is a dead and shrinking market. The tuners available, primarily Samsung, are not going to get any better, cheaper or more plentiful. If anything they will fade from the market.

I admit I haven't read this whole thread or the linked article, but these kinds of converter boxes have existed for a *while*, and even under $100. (I even got positive mods on slashdot several weeks ago for giving a link to an under $100 one on Amazon.)

I was wondering about the quality of recording from the digital converter boxes vs an ATSC tuner recorder. Since the converter will "convert" digital to analog and if I record with my older NTSC tuner recorder, I can believe that the quality will be lower than using a newer digital (ATSC) tuner recorder.

Anyone have any information?

The echostar tr-40 will be a "coupon eligible" box.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-the-echostar-tr-40-and-tr-50-converter-boxes/

Wristpad2-
"I was wondering about the quality of recording from the digital converter boxes vs an ATSC tuner recorder. Since the converter will "convert" digital to analog and if I record with my older NTSC tuner recorder, I can believe that the quality will be lower than using a newer digital (ATSC) tuner recorder.
Anyone have any information?"

Response- I cant say about the PQ of using one of the digital converter boxes to record onto a analog DVDR, but what I have done is this. Output the digital tuner of a Panasonic EZ-17 digital tuner DVDR, to the input of a older es-15 analog Panny DVDR, and the resulting DVD was the SAME PQ as another DVD recorded at the same time/speed on the EZ unit.
So from this test I would assume that if a person took a external converter box, hooked up to the S-input of a "good quality" DVDR, the recording quality would rival the same recording done by a "good quality" digital tuner DVDR.
At least thats what I found out.

I too was kinda surprised at my findings. I though the PQ was going to be better using the internal tuner of the EZ-17, but I found out otherwise with my test, that the increase in PQ was not due to the EZ-17 having a better recorder, but all had to do with the source. In my case a 1080i CBS TV program(of course downconverted by the EZ's tuner).

I subscribed to our local (Albuquerque) Comcast's digital service and rented a DVR as well. I did this for several years until the end of December 2007. My rent was going up and I looked around to ways to save money, and returning the DVR and getting rid of digital seemed to be the way to save at least $30 a month. Also, the "guide" provided with the service had been awful for the previous 6-8 weeks (people I know who live elsewhere in the city had noticed as well) and of course there isn't much new on TV anyway due to the writers' strike. I had also seen just about everything The Science Channel had to offer, and due to the bad "guide", I'd missed the first few weeks of the 2nd season of Life on Mars on the 90% boring BBCAmerica. I hope to Netflix it one day.

Now, the local Comcast (and national?) has transistioned The Game Channel and The Hallmark Channel to digital, which does not bother me one bit as I never watched them. In trying to determine, though, how soon channels I *do* watch would go beyond common cable, I checked Comcast's site, it was useless (surprise!), and so I wound up writing to someone. After generic, useless replies (which I told them didn't answer my questions at all), I actually got a phone call on January 1! from a woman who... couldn't tell me anything, she said the schedule of channels changing when had not yet been decided, but I'll know when I see messages about it streaming along the bottom of the screen. oh, boy.

I have the feeling I'm going to save at least $200 before I have to start worrying about resubscribing. I mentioned to the lady that whatever machines they get to convert the signals for those using regular cable only, they better work with VCRs (i.e., allow VCRs [and DVDRs] to pick and choose different channels to record while the subscriber is away). She agreed they better do that... but of course she had no idea and I'm sure Comcast will do their best (or worst) to get as much $$ from us as possible, meaning we'll have to rent their DVRs, too. Makes me wonder how much I really need TV...

I tried to find out when the EchoStar TR-40 is coming. Another forum said they are expected in March.

This government web site state coupons expire 90 days after they are issued.
https://www.dtv2009.gov/

So it appears you have to get a coupon while they are available, yet not too early so they don't expire before the converter boxes become available.

So it appears you have to get a coupon while they are available, yet not too early so they don't expire before the converter boxes become available.I applied for my vouchers earlier this week. The final screen stated they would not be sent out until late Feb-early March because that is when they are expected to appear in retail stores. So, I should have until the end of May to make a purchase before expiration.

The TR-50 wouldn't qualify for the coupon, right?

Yes, since it has HDMI out, I would assume no credit:(

Yup, thanks... missed that in the specs.

Not just the HDMI out, the TR-50 is a full DVR. The vouchers are only for inexpensive gov't approved converter boxes which means essentially minimalist external tuners.

I subscribed to our local (Albuquerque) Comcast's digital service and rented a DVR as well. I did this for several years until the end of December 2007. My rent was going up and I looked around to ways to save money, and returning the DVR and getting rid of digital seemed to be the way to save at least $30 a month. Also, the "guide" provided with the service had been awful for the previous 6-8 weeks (people I know who live elsewhere in the city had noticed as well) and of course there isn't much new on TV anyway due to the writers' strike. I had also seen just about everything The Science Channel had to offer, and due to the bad "guide", I'd missed the first few weeks of the 2nd season of Life on Mars on the 90% boring BBCAmerica. I hope to Netflix it one day.

Now, the local Comcast (and national?) has transistioned The Game Channel and The Hallmark Channel to digital, which does not bother me one bit as I never watched them. In trying to determine, though, how soon channels I *do* watch would go beyond common cable, I checked Comcast's site, it was useless (surprise!), and so I wound up writing to someone. After generic, useless replies (which I told them didn't answer my questions at all), I actually got a phone call on January 1! from a woman who... couldn't tell me anything, she said the schedule of channels changing when had not yet been decided, but I'll know when I see messages about it streaming along the bottom of the screen. oh, boy.

I have the feeling I'm going to save at least $200 before I have to start worrying about resubscribing. I mentioned to the lady that whatever machines they get to convert the signals for those using regular cable only, they better work with VCRs (i.e., allow VCRs [and DVDRs] to pick and choose different channels to record while the subscriber is away). She agreed they better do that... but of course she had no idea and I'm sure Comcast will do their best (or worst) to get as much $$ from us as possible, meaning we'll have to rent their DVRs, too. Makes me wonder how much I really need TV...

I'm with you. They moved AMC here recently (among others) to digital and raised our monthly price to boot. We've lost about 10 channels so far and are paying $3-4 extra per month for the privilege. I'm truly wondering if it's worth it. For now, it is, to me, but as they keep pushing, I expect it will get to the point where it will not be. I already have a digital OTA tuner and there's more and more stuff available on the net and netflix. So maybe one day, goodbye Comcast and good riddance!

They're obviously trying to scare people here locally into going all digital. They never mention the requirement to keep basic analog channels, for example, in their ads about the switch over.

And just think out of the $40.00 how much of that is China going to get for building them?

We don't send China enough money already for their junk? There goes our Govt. wasting our money again.

I wonder how many people will grab them just to sell them off on Ebay?

Also does Bill Gates really need a rebate on HD Tuners? but from what I've read (Could Be Wrong?) under the law he can get the reabate if he wants to apply for it. Dumb Govt.

Who should get to decide who "needs" the rebate?

People have mentioned these vouchers, however, no one has mentioned the suspicious question you must answer: 1) OTA only sets or 2) Some or All Sets connected to Cable/Satellite.

Why would they ask that?

If 2) and all sets, then you don't need the converter, but 2) also includes "some" sets connected.

I was afraid to select this 2) answer to the online form for fear of rejection. Anyone else do the on-line selecting 2???

Thanks
Tom

I believe they're asking that question to appease those who objected to not requiring that the boxes go only to people who only relied on OTA. Those objectors (rightfully) fear that the program will run out of coupons long before everyone who, in their opinion, need the discount provided by the coupons more than others need the discount provided by the coupons have a chance to secure their coupons. So this data collection will provide them the data they need to foster a reconsideration of the whole coupon program after-the-fact.

Clarification: The parenthetical phrase "(rightfully)" pertains to the fear; I'm not voicing an opinion about whether anyone actually does need more than anyone else.

I'm with you.....So maybe one day, goodbye Comcast and good riddance!

They're obviously trying to scare people here locally into going all digital. They never mention the requirement to keep basic analog channels, for example, in their ads about the switch over.

I'm a bit late reading this, but thanks, Bron, for your thoughts. We're in total agreement. I'll be upset if they soon move Comedy Central (Daily Show/Colbert Report), MSNBC (Countdown), Sci-Fi (Ghost Hunters), and a few others... but I can get most of the info on my dial-up home connection (faster at work) or buy/rent DVDs. I thought I had heard about that basic local analog requirement, but you're right that no one (like comcast or even the local TV stations in their "400n days left!") mentions it. I have the feeling that as the economy worsens, certain big-tech plans (like HDTV, big-screen, super-duper cell phones, etc.) will be put on hold because fewer & fewer people will be able to afford them. Oh, and sunspots may diddle with satellites/internet, too. It'll all be fun to observe...

Bron & DebbieS,

Comcast in our area moved SciFi to digital over a year ago and you then needed their Digital Classic package and digital STB as it was now encrypted. Was $10/month regular price with the first 6 months at $5/month. This created a lot of commotion on other forums. Here’s a channel we’ve been getting for years and now have to pay extra for. In fact it’s now $12/mon. I took this package for a while but have since dropped it. May get it again when Battlestar Gallactica returns for the conclusion of the series, and then drop it again.

Not too long ago they moved the Hallmark Channel to digital & encrypted it too. So if you watched a lot a family programs you now have to pay $12/month extra if you‘re not already doing so. And again used to be included with Expanded Basic.

I can understand moving to digital. But encrypting & charging extra is obviously just a money making move. Comcast will probably encrypt a lot of popular channels, “forcing” consumers to pay more. I too think about dropping Comcast. There are programs I would miss, but I probably watch too much TV anyway. However there is stuff I do watch on the major network channels that I can get OTA for free. So I really do consider that option.

I disagree. People are clamoring for more HD. They can't get it until analog channels are moved to digital because in most areas all the channels are already filled. They can easily fit two HD channels in one analog channel slot, or one HD channel and five SD digital channels. I feel they surely should be doing that for every channel except for the broadcast channels.

I'm a bit late reading this, but thanks, Bron, for your thoughts. We're in total agreement. I'll be upset if they soon move Comedy Central (Daily Show/Colbert Report), MSNBC (Countdown), Sci-Fi (Ghost Hunters), and a few others... but I can get most of the info on my dial-up home connection (faster at work) or buy/rent DVDs. I thought I had heard about that basic local analog requirement, but you're right that no one (like comcast or even the local TV stations in their "400n days left!") mentions it. I have the feeling that as the economy worsens, certain big-tech plans (like HDTV, big-screen, super-duper cell phones, etc.) will be put on hold because fewer & fewer people will be able to afford them. Oh, and sunspots may diddle with satellites/internet, too. It'll all be fun to observe...

Yea, I watch a lot of those, too, and it is for the few shows I like that I hang on. But as it becomes possible to get some of these via alternate means, the possibility of switching becomes more attractive. But I have multiple ReplayTV's and HDD recorders and none of the alternatives are as convenient, so I hang on for now. I have only the analog basic plus, so I no Sci-Fi any more as they moved it to digital a year or so back.

Yea, they never mention the analog requirement. They are trying to herd people like sheep down the path they prefer -- and it might work, because most people are too busy to pay much attention. I think you're right about the economy, though. A lot fo people will be cutting back on various things and the splurging on things like HDTV may drop off. It's already way too expensive for what it offers in my opinion. We'll see, I guess.

Netflix is great, I just wish they'd get it in gear for us Firefox users. Their online viewing is IE only so far. With Netflix and the net, it would definitely be possible to have plenty to watch.

Bron & DebbieS,

Comcast in our area moved SciFi to digital over a year ago and you then needed their Digital Classic package and digital STB as it was now encrypted. Was $10/month regular price with the first 6 months at $5/month. This created a lot of commotion on other forums. Here’s a channel we’ve been getting for years and now have to pay extra for. In fact it’s now $12/mon. I took this package for a while but have since dropped it. May get it again when Battlestar Gallactica returns for the conclusion of the series, and then drop it again.

Not too long ago they moved the Hallmark Channel to digital & encrypted it too. So if you watched a lot a family programs you now have to pay $12/month extra if you‘re not already doing so. And again used to be included with Expanded Basic.

I can understand moving to digital. But encrypting & charging extra is obviously just a money making move. Comcast will probably encrypt a lot of popular channels, “forcing” consumers to pay more. I too think about dropping Comcast. There are programs I would miss, but I probably watch too much TV anyway. However there is stuff I do watch on the major network channels that I can get OTA for free. So I really do consider that option.

I agree. They're trying to squeeze every nickel they can out of us. Especially while they have little competition. The encryption and copy protection schemes will only get worse. Already they can stop you from recording titles using the copy never flags and such. You can get around it, but most people won't bother. Driving people away is what I see. Cable will die eventually if they don't change their mindset.

I disagree. People are clamoring for more HD. They can't get it until analog channels are moved to digital because in most areas all the channels are already filled. They can easily fit two HD channels in one analog channel slot, or one HD channel and five SD digital channels. I feel they surely should be doing that for every channel except for the broadcast channels.

Yea, I hear this a lot but I don't buy it. Cable would love this because they can parse stuff up and charge for stuff that's now free claiming it's "HD" (even when they're just transmitting std def in HD format) and we'll have 3 zillion channels of crap instead of only hundreds. I mean I only watch about a dozen channels regularly. I suspect most even fewer. Do we really need more home shopping channels? More sports channels? I don't think so.

And, there are lots of possible solutions to this problem they don't mention that would still preserve analog at the viewing end of the pipe. No matter how you slice it, their profits grow and our costs grow. And who says people are clamoring for more HD? They do. Who knows. I'm not. They (Cable cos.) are putting out their message and disinformation at such a clip, who could possibly know?

And, besides, I thought all these guys were capitalists who love the "free market" and choice?

But, you could be right. ;)

I would be just fine with it if my cable company (Bright House) dropped all analog cable service and went digital only in 2009 IF they would carry the entire limited and expanded basic tiers in clear QAM. I will be extrememly p***ed if (I probably should say when, not if) they eliminate analog cable service and carry the expanded basic tier in encrypted QAM. I think that I will downgrade to limited basic then. I did not go buy 2 digital tv's and a DVD recorded with a digital tuner just to hook a d*** converter box up to them anyway!!!

I disagree. People are clamoring for more HD. They can't get it until analog channels are moved to digital because in most areas all the channels are already filled. They can easily fit two HD channels in one analog channel slot, or one HD channel and five SD digital channels. I feel they surely should be doing that for every channel except for the broadcast channels.


When they moved SciFi and Hallmark to digital they did not make these HD. I know some areas now have HD SciFi, but it was SD when they changed by me. So basically I ended up paying $12/month for standard def digital SciFi. So I dropped it after a while.

I visited a friend last weekend who has Comcast HD along with their DVR. I watched a bit of the Food Network in HD. I was disappointed when I periodically saw some macro-blocking. I don't know how Comcast is sharing bits, but obviously too many were borrowed from the Food Network. And that's not a fast motion program.

There are also some artifacts when recording my local Clear QAM HD PBS channel. When watching a direct feed to my HDTV it looks good. But when the DVD recorder down-rezes it (whether recording or passing thru), the picture then goes out of focus during motion scenes. I called the station & spoke with a VP. He acknowledged they were borrowing bits from the main channel because they have 3 sub-channels. He seemed concerned, but perhaps not for me. But he said would look into it because it may be a problem with all the HD to SD converter boxes that Comcast has or will be using when going all digital.

Bottom line is HD is good if done right. But I'd be pretty upset if HD SciFi looks likes HD Food Network. If you go over to the HD program forum you will see comments about some of the HD programming looking like SD being stretched to fit the wide screen.

Bottom line is HD is good if done right. But I'd be pretty upset if HD SciFi looks likes HD Food Network. If you go over to the HD program forum you will see comments about some of the HD programming looking like SD being stretched to fit the wide screen.Not looking like it - much if it actually IS upscaled, stretched SD. On many stations it's majority upscaled SD, and on a few it's ALL.

As far as Food Net looking bad, I think that with the channels that ordinarily don't have much movement, they skimp on the bitrate so much because they feel they can get away with it most of the time, and when anything actually does move a bit, it really shows.

Hopefully, they have enough sense to allot more bits to a sometimes action-heavy channel like Sci-Fi HD in the first place.

Driving people away is what I see. Cable will die eventually if they don't change their mindset.Probably not, since cable is going towards where much of its competition already is, fully digital and fully encrypted.

Do we really need more home shopping channels? More sports channels? I don't think so.Last I checked, there hasn't been a new shopping channel added in years. Where did you come up with that????????? As far as more sports channels, I don't care for them, but other people do. We have to respect the fact that the world doesn't revolve solely around ourselves, and that other people do want things that we don't care about, and that that drives businesses to reasonably do thing that we perhaps won't care about or even object to.

And, there are lots of possible solutions to this problem they don't mention that would still preserve analog at the viewing end of the pipe.There are no less expensive and more profitable solutions than the ones they're pursuing.

No matter how you slice it, their profits grow and our costs grow.In lock-step with how much value we place on the services they offer.

And who says people are clamoring for more HD? They do. Who knows. I'm not.I am definitely clamoring for more HD, so yes, people are clamoring for more HD. Just because you don't care doesn't mean it isn't a significant driver for them.

And, besides, I thought all these guys were capitalists who love the "free market" and choice?That's right. As business owners, they should be free to provide whatever service they wish, how they wish to provide it, and consumers should be free to accept the service as offered, go elsewhere, or do without. The only exception to that is that someone needs to provide folks who need it with lifetime cable, so a regulation is imposed on cable to facilitate that.

When they moved SciFi and Hallmark to digital they did not make these HD.I never said they did. Indeed, it makes sense to move less popular channels off of analog (fewer people upset) and add more popular channels as HD (such as USA, TNT, ESPN, etc.) Sci Fi will get its day, and in many places it is already provided in HD, but it wasn't the first channel to be provided in HD on any system.

I visited a friend last weekend who has Comcast HD along with their DVR. I watched a bit of the Food Network in HD. I was disappointed when I periodically saw some macro-blocking.I watch Food Network HD a good amount and noted that it is one of the most reliable channels, with superior PQ. Your friend should have someone check his wiring.

I seem to have read something about the $40 vouchers would be "limited" to those people who don't currently receive their TV by anything other than OTA. That is, if you have cable or satellite service, you won't get any vouchers???

Wab,

I undertstood that the initial slug of vouchers were available to all households, the second round only to folks that have only OTA (seems backward to me, but heck - what can I say).

I actually submitted my application on 1/1 - And they do have you fill out a questionaire that indicates if you are getting cable or satellite digital service and OTA.

In any event, sound like I wouldnt see vouchers until spring, and they are only good for 90days from day of issue.



Rick

I subscribed to our local (Albuquerque) Comcast's digital service and rented a DVR as well. I did this for several years until the end of December 2007. My rent was going up and I looked around to ways to save money, and returning the DVR and getting rid of digital seemed to be the way to save at least $30 a month. Also, the "guide" provided with the service had been awful for the previous 6-8 weeks (people I know who live elsewhere in the city had noticed as well) and of course there isn't much new on TV anyway due to the writers' strike. I had also seen just about everything The Science Channel had to offer, and due to the bad "guide", I'd missed the first few weeks of the 2nd season of Life on Mars on the 90% boring BBCAmerica. I hope to Netflix it one day.

Now, the local Comcast (and national?) has transistioned The Game Channel and The Hallmark Channel to digital, which does not bother me one bit as I never watched them. In trying to determine, though, how soon channels I *do* watch would go beyond common cable, I checked Comcast's site, it was useless (surprise!), and so I wound up writing to someone. After generic, useless replies (which I told them didn't answer my questions at all), I actually got a phone call on January 1! from a woman who... couldn't tell me anything, she said the schedule of channels changing when had not yet been decided, but I'll know when I see messages about it streaming along the bottom of the screen. oh, boy.

I have the feeling I'm going to save at least $200 before I have to start worrying about resubscribing. I mentioned to the lady that whatever machines they get to convert the signals for those using regular cable only, they better work with VCRs (i.e., allow VCRs [and DVDRs] to pick and choose different channels to record while the subscriber is away). She agreed they better do that... but of course she had no idea and I'm sure Comcast will do their best (or worst) to get as much $$ from us as possible, meaning we'll have to rent their DVRs, too. Makes me wonder how much I really need TV...

DebbyS,

I had been subscribing to DISH with couple of premium packages - but about year and half ago, I realized I could save 30-40 per month if I dropped all but the basic Satellite coverage. I was watching mostly OTA for live network (because I could get HiDef OTA and it looked better than anything the satellite had). I also took part of the money I saved and subscribe to BB so I still get plenty of movies to watch.

But still OTA of the both PBS and network look the best on my HiDef tv. ANd I record what I need to on a DVD recorder with a Hardrive.

At some point I might change my mind and get a HiDef DVR from DISH, but not right now.

Rick

Wab,

I undertstood that the initial slug of vouchers were available to all households, the second round only to folks that have only OTA (seems backward to me, but heck - what can I say).

I actually submitted my application on 1/1 - And they do have you fill out a questionaire that indicates if you are getting cable or satellite digital service and OTA.

In any event, sound like I wouldnt see vouchers until spring, and they are only good for 90days from day of issue.



Rick

Just apply for the voucher, even if you get approved, you don't have to use it.

The 2 questions asked are:
Check the statement below that best describes your household*
All or some of the TVs in my house subscribe to one or more pay services, such as cable or satellite.
None of the TVs in my house subscribe to one or more pay services, such as cable or satellite.

and:
how many coupons do you need 1 or 2

There is not a qualifier for the satellite question asking if you receive all your local stations via satellite.

I just looked at the list of eligible converter boxes.
http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

As of now, there are 26 boxes eligible.

So I take it that "government approved" translates to bare bones ATSC tuner with S-video, composite and little else featurewise? Even though teh Echostar T-50 looks like a videogame console from the late 80's....I wouldn't mind having one if Uncle Sam pays for $40 of it.;)

The (forthcoming) Echostar TR-50 is a true HD DVR for OTA reception only (no cable, no satellite). It is not eligible for the $40 coupon, and will probably sell for several hundred dollars.

The (also forthcoming) Echostar TR-40 is an OTA ATSC converter box with composite-video, S-video, and RF NTSC output on channel 3 or 4 (just like an old-time VCR!). It is eligible for the $40 coupon, and will probably have a (non-coupon) price of not much more than $40.

DebbyS,

I had been subscribing to DISH... [snip] Rick

I live in an apartment and have no dish-happy southern view (except my bedroom window, but from what I understand, dishs don't like cheap acrylic windows). I need cable because I also live in downtown Albuquerque, and the local stations' antennas are up on the mountain peak northeast of town. There are big buildings between me and those antennas. I could get one channel, just a bit, when I moved in 2003 (within the same apartment complex), and that was very fuzzy. Comcast rehooked me up soon thereafter.

I feel for those who only get Sci-Fi in "digital" now. At least we still have it on regular. And for the blocking problem, I noticed that on digital, too. I blamed my DVR until I saw it happen "live"... except the signal comes through the DVR... I decided the DVR, in recording, made the blocking worse. I changed out the DVR a while back and it was doing okay until I gave up on the whole digital idea on 12/29/2007.

Finally, as for HD, I have no desire to sink a lot of $$ into something I cannot yet record in the same quality, even if I could afford all the components.

This is "coupon eligible".

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Zenith_DTT900%20.html

Well it certainly looks nice, all the curves and such. Unless he was being funny, I have to question what he knows, since from reading the official govt. site, they specifically state only one coupon per device. You cannot use 2 coupons to pay for a $60 or even $80 device. There is a specific question and answer to that question.
It also looks like this unit does not have a timer which would allow a person to program the tuner to change channels at a specific time, for DVDR programming use. I guess if your DVDR had a IR blaster that would work.
At $20 more than the TR-40, I guess the curves aren't worth it for me. But for someone with just a TV or DVDR w/IR blaster, it might work fine.

RCA DTA 800A info is here:

http://www.keepmytv.com/converter.aspx

looks like RCA snagged a good URL for the conversion program.

I promise my last comment for the day about these converters.
I'd say while they have a catchy web address, it's about as incomplete as you can get.:rolleyes:
Defiantly DTV for Dummies. Looks like a good converter for my grandma. Big buttons and all.:D
Can't believe many of the techies at AVS will be getting one of these, but who knows.:p

The Zenith has it's own thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12377580#post12377580


The first post has many links, including other DTV converter boxes.

The sansonic displays signal strength, a nice feature to have.

http://www.sansonic.net/consumer/atsc_converter.asp

Do these digital-to-analog boxes, such as Echostar's TR-40, allow people with basic cable to receive the QAM channels that cable companies pass through for free? I have an HDTV with a built-in ATSC/QAM tuner that shows the pass-through basic stations (NBC, CBS, PBS, etc.) from my basic cable connection. However, I would like to know if the Echostar TR-40 (or similar boxes) will allow me to see these digital channels on my older analog TV through the same basic cable feed. Let me note that I do not have a cable box; rather, just the coaxial cable running straight to my TVs.

Also, is it possible to set up an HDTV antenna on my roof and combine the feed from that antenna with my cable coaxial and then run a single line to my HDTV -- with the HDTV able to pull ATSC or QAM signals depending on the channel that I've selected? I'm thinking about trying this because I've heard that the signals are less compressed through an ATSC antenna feed than through basic cable. But I only have one cable input on my HDTV and so would need to combine the antenna and cable feeds.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

I believe the low-cost digital converter boxes for the govt program are just for digital TV broadcast signals received thru an antenna (OTA). That makes sense since the only thing going away in 2009 are OTA analog TV signals. Cable and satellite aren't affected.

A recently announced LG converter box says it'll have a 5th (or 6th) generation "ATSC/VSB" tuner, which means only for OTA digital TV.

Do these digital-to-analog boxes, such as Echostar's TR-40, allow people with basic cable to receive the QAM channels that cable companies pass through for free?
But I only have one cable input on my HDTV and so would need to combine the antenna and cable feeds.

One option that would satisfy your need is a DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner, most do not list QAM on the box, but some have them. From my memory, the Samsung, Phillips, LG, and Panasonic have QAM tuners.

With the DVD recorders, you would need an A/B switch, one for Antenna the other for Basic Cable. I have yet to see one with a dual RF input.

I'm worried about composit video and s-video and how they are effected by the FCC requirement that cable and satellite companies must provide analog outputs until 2012.

Just what are "analog outputs?"

Are they talking about RF channel 3 or 4 stuff or will this be the demise of composit and s-video?

Just means they have to have S-Video and Composite outputs (both analog) on their boxes.

One option that would satisfy your need is a DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner, most do not list QAM on the box, but some have them. From my memory, the Samsung, Phillips, LG, and Panasonic have QAM tuners.

With the DVD recorders, you would need an A/B switch, one for Antenna the other for Basic Cable. I have yet to see one with a dual RF input.

Thanks very much. Actually, I was hoping to use the TR-40 with my DVD recorder -- which has only an analog tuner -- to pull the digital signals for recording (albeit in analog). So I was trying to avoid buying the DVD recorder with a digital tuner....

Geez, an A-B switch -- what a pain! My HDTV can pull QAM, ATSC and NTSC, so I was hoping to feed all three through a combined cable (by using one of those "Y" connectors in reverse). But I guess not. Oh, well. Thanks again for your reply.

I believe the low-cost digital converter boxes for the govt program are just for digital TV broadcast signals received thru an antenna (OTA). That makes sense since the only thing going away in 2009 are OTA analog TV signals. Cable and satellite aren't affected.




so basically as long as I have Directv service, it doesn't matter what kind of TV's that I use when March 2009 rolls around, I won't need any digital converter box? it only affects those that have OTA for TV viewing where a digital converter box would be needed if the TV is an analog type? thanks
PS-can I still use my Pioneer DVD recorder(DVR640H) when March 2009 arrives, even though it's an analog tuner inside the recorder?

so basically as long as I have Directv service, it doesn't matter what kind of TV's that I use when March 2009 rolls around, I won't need any digital converter box? it only affects those that have OTA for TV viewing where a digital converter box would be needed if the TV is an analog type? thanks
PS-can I still use my Pioneer DVD recorder(DVR640H) when March 2009 arrives, even though it's an analog tuner inside the recorder?
Yes, use any analog TV or DVDR as long as you're on cable or satellite service. Cable subscribers are supposed to be OK to or thru 2012. Satellite subscribers already get a proprietary signal that only the sat boxes can tune and deliver to any TV or DVDR with line inputs.

Several people keep up with this subject better than I do and maybe you'll hear from them with more details.

At Best Buy last night and they had a stack of about 100 Insignia digital converter boxes with the $40 voucher inside the box. The price of the box was $59.99 and the associate said the voucher would only be good in the store. It was a basic box w/remote, RF in/out as well as composite out. Here's a link to the box.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8624081&st=digital+converter+boxes&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1199495190393
I think I'll wait for my coupons, and get the Echostar TR-40 for free, which I believe also has more features than this Insignia box. But for early adopters it's available now.

Has anyone received their coupons yet?

Echostar announced the TR-40 will not be available until June.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6533760.html

If they go out soon, the first coupons will expire at the end of May.

Has anyone received their coupons yet?

Echostar announced the TR-40 will not be available until June.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6533760.html

If they go out soon, the first coupons will expire at the end of May.No, I have not gotten mine yet. I applied in early Jan and was very ticked off that the website did not inform me that the coupons would expire 90 days after issue until after I had completed the forms. I'm hoping for the usual amount of bureaucratic red tape to delay their delivery as long as possible.

Hopefully the same group that handles passports will be over-seeing the voucher program.

Hopefully the same group that handles passports will be over-seeing the voucher program.

Good one, I too am waiting for the TR-40 and would be ticked if my coupon's would expire before they were available. All the converter boxes I've seen locally are quite basic and seem really cheaply made.
I guess this might be one case of "the early bird" not getting the worm:mad:

IBM is the contractor handling the Coupon program. Perhaps the government realized that internal handling of this program would have resulted in the coupons arriving sometime around 2015.

The mailing address for the Coupon program is in Portland Oregon (where I live). My applications were submitted 1/1/08. No coupons as of the 2/23/08 mail delivery.

At Best Buy last night and they had a stack of about 100 Insignia digital converter boxes with the $40 voucher inside the box. The price of the box was $59.99 and the associate said the voucher would only be good in the store. It was a basic box w/remote, RF in/out as well as composite out. Here's a link to the box.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8624081&st=digital+converter+boxes&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1199495190393
I think I'll wait for my coupons, and get the Echostar TR-40 for free, which I believe also has more features than this Insignia box. But for early adopters it's available now.

I went to Best Buy and saw the Insignia boxes (looks just like the LG Zenith ones). However, I didn't see any indication that there were any vouchers inside the box. BTW, I'm still waiting for my coupons.

I've read the buyer reviews for the Insignia and other boxes. It seems like there are complaints/good reviews about every model that I've read so far.

Wal-Mart has a Magnavox converter for $49.95, very basic box with a "TV Guide" of some sort.

When applying online for a converter they ask if: "All or some of the TVs in my house subscribe to one or more pay services, such as cable or satellite."

If one TV is hooked to cable & the other is not, is the application going to be rejected? IOW they can say I have the ability to connect the 2nd TV.

I answered Yes to that question and got two certs. I think that's just one the govt's ways of collecting some stats, altho it COULD be used for cutting off the program if they're overwhelmed... sort of an escape mechanism since they really didn't know how many certs would be needed????????

Mike,

As long as you have any TV sets that use an antenna you qualify for one or two converter boxes. How many you request is up to you.

This, and the converter boxes themselves are discussed in more detail here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25

For the first 22 million coupons, answering "yes, I subcribe to cable or satellite" will not cause your application to be rejected. For the final 11 million coupons (I think it is 11 million, I forget the exact number) answering yes will cause your application to be rejected.

I answered yes when I applied on the 2nd, and I have yet to get mine. Hmmmm.

I got my two coupons last week. Based on what I've read on the HDTV Reception Hardware forum section of Avsforum.com, I bought a Maganavox and a RCA converter box. Either box works well will my old analog DVD recorder. Check out the converter box forums for more information.

Thanks to these converter boxes, I can use my old analog recorders to record from TV stations that I used to get only snowy reception.

I requested my coupons on Jan. 9.
Nada so far.

You can check your application status: https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx

FYI, $990 million is allocated to these free coupons. This $990 is for everyone, those with OTA, cable or satellite. After that $990 million, only those with only OTA is eligible (up to a certain $, then this program stops issuing coupons).

This gives a status of how much has been issued to date: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

Note: these coupons have a 90 expiration date from issuance. There are still some converter boxes that have yet to be on the market yet. Apply too early, and your purchase options are limited.

Great reference, thanks. Unfortunately, it tells me my coupons are in the mail. That means I have until mid to late June to buy a box before expiration. 90 days is just too short a time period. I have a feeling it was done to force the converter box makers to get their products on the shelf ASAP. So far I don't see much of a selection in the stores.

I hope mine take the slow boat from China. I'm in the same predicament. So far there's nothing out there that I like. The TR-40 would probably be first choice and maybe if the Maxamedia actually becomes available that one sounds nice too. Otherwise I can't say I really care for any that are currently available.

I see a Zenith at CC, an Insignia at BB and an RCA and a Magnavox at Walmart. A bunch of other stores I checked don't list them for sale. None have analog pass through. This is a pitiful selection. It doesn't look like stores are going to carry more than 1-2 units. 63 different models have been "approved" -- where the heck are they.

Won't help if they take that slow boat from China. The expiration date is based on the issued date, and not the received date...sorry.

What you need to hope for is a bureaucratic slowdown...which is actually more likely... :D

I hope mine take the slow boat from China. I'm in the same predicament. So far there's nothing out there that I like. The TR-40 would probably be first choice and maybe if the Maxamedia actually becomes available that one sounds nice too. Otherwise I can't say I really care for any that are currently available.Use the link from zhenerale to find out if your coupons have been mailed. Doesn't matter how slow the boat is -- the 90 day clock starts ticking from the day they are mailed.

Going by that then, I've probably lost at least three weeks off of mine so far, because I applied on the 2nd and haven't gotten them yet, and it's said they were "in the mail" for over two weeks now.

I still think they're just holding them back because I checked "yes" for other service besides OTA.

Actually, people that are getting them right now seem to have them expiring around mid-June.

Great reference, thanks. Unfortunately, it tells me my coupons are in the mail. That means I have until mid to late June to buy a box before expiration. So, I get home from work yesterday, the wife hands me the mail and there is the envelope. How prophetic.

I applied for 2 "coupons" on 1/5/08 stating that I am 100% OTA. I received them yesterday 3/31/08. They are dated to expire 6/18/08, so they were issued and sent around 3/20/08 (11 days in the mail??? Looks like they send these by worm).

What you get are actually a pair of embossed gift cards for $40 each. The expiration date is clearly embossed on the face of the card. For me it looks like I'll be shut out of the TR-40 which isn't due out until July. I imagine stores will require valid ID at POS so forget about selling/buying these on E-bay. Here's something interesting, a document is included in the envelope that tells some details about the program and is customized for your address. It lists all the stores within about a 15 mile radius of me that are registered to accept the card and sell the CECB's. Now there are lots and lots of stores around me, but the only ones listed were BestBuy, Circuit City, Radio Shack and WalMart. That's it. No Target, none of the other major department stores. The current selection is pretty meager. I have until mid-June to see what new models come out and what the reviews are.

You can check your application status: https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx

FYI, $990 million is allocated to these free coupons. This $990 is for everyone, those with OTA, cable or satellite. After that $990 million, only those with only OTA is eligible (up to a certain $, then this program stops issuing coupons).

This gives a status of how much has been issued to date: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

Note: these coupons have a 90 expiration date from issuance. There are still some converter boxes that have yet to be on the market yet. Apply too early, and your purchase options are limited.

Slight correction: Not $990 million, but appears $890 million (based on 22.25 milion * $40)

According to the FAQ's about the coupons: "There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted."
https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx Under: Coupon Program: Getting a Coupon 7.Are all consumers eligible for the coupon program?

Going by that then, I've probably lost at least three weeks off of mine so far, because I applied on the 2nd and haven't gotten them yet, and it's said they were "in the mail" for over two weeks now.

I still think they're just holding them back because I checked "yes" for other service besides OTA.

Actually, people that are getting them right now seem to have them expiring around mid-June.

Well, I've never had cable or satellite, and so far it's taken about a month-and-a-half for mine to come. I would have thought my situation would have been perfect, and yet I'm still waiting to see a coupon. It'll probably show up after the tax deadline.

I'd like it to come before the statute of limitations on my Wal-Mart receipt runs out, and maybe by then they'll see the folly of my having to return the box just to buy a new one with the coupon, and just rebate me with a gift card or something.

Has anyone been able to find one of these digital converter boxes that's programmable? That is to say, a box that you can set to automatically turn on at time "y" and switch to digital channel "x" so the DVD recorder connected to it's outputs can automatically record a show?

Being in Canada this isn't an issue for me right now, but it will be in a couple of more years (Canada's digital transition is Feb 2011) and so I'm interested in what's available.

The only one I've heard of would be the Echostar TR-40.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001979
Not available for a while yet though. Sure to be a hit with us DVDR and VCR OTA crowd.
A little bit about the TR-40 on this post also
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12724177#post12724177

Has anyone been able to find one of these digital converter boxes that's programmable? That is to say, a box that you can set to automatically turn on at time "y" and switch to digital channel "x" so the DVD recorder connected to it's outputs can automatically record a show?

Being in Canada this isn't an issue for me right now, but it will be in a couple of more years (Canada's digital transition is Feb 2011) and so I'm interested in what's available.The Zenith box can be controlled by an LG satellite tuner code, so if any you have a DVD recorder with an IR blaster that carries that code, you can use that method. It can even be set to change to subchannels.

But a to wait for a tuner with a built-in timer would definitely be smarter in your case, since you don't need it now, because it's more future-proof.

That's good info, thanks guys!

I decided to use one of my vouchers and buy the Digital Stream DTX9900 from Radio Shack more for experimentation than anything else. I really wanted to see how many of the Philly digital stations I could get and if my current series of amplifiers, passive and powered splitters would pass a digital signal through. From the reports I've been reading in another forum the tuner on this one is supposed to be the most sensitive, but it is also supposed to have some sort of high-pitched chirping in the left channel when decoding a 5.1 broadcast. The Zenith/Insignia also has this chirping bug. As for me, neither my wife nor myself hears anything out of the ordinary other than good sound. That may be a function of our 50+ ears, so I asked my 20 yr daughter to have a listen and she can't hear any high frequency noise either. The other nice feature is that the program guide goes out 8hr where other boxes go out to the next show. But, since it is only for the channel currently tuned I don't find it all that useful.

Anyway, I first hooked it up to my Sony 32" TV through both the RF antenna input and a composite input. This unit does not support pass-through, but I find that irrelevant in my case for 2 reasons. First, the box pulls in every digital station I'm supposed to get, according to antennaweb.org, which means I get the digital equivalents of all the analog stations I receive plus more. So I have no use for analog pass-through, because with this box I have no use for analog. Second, there is a very clear difference in PQ between RF input and composite line-in. The RF PQ is not bad, it's just that the composite PQ is much better. So much so, that I would never connect this box via RF, hence pass-through is again irrelevant.

The picture is very clear and stable on all channels; very nice signal strength meter. I can't ask for more. The functions on the remote are very simple so it only took me 5 min to transfer the remote functions into my Sony VL600 learning universal remote. After playing with it for a day, hooked to the TV, I re-connected the composite-out to my E-85. This box pulls in a PBS station that is clear as a bell in digital and very snowy in analog. I have a couple programs I record from this channel weekly, so I'm looking forward to primarily using the DTX9900 for recording on my E-85. The tuner is not programmable so I have to set the channel manually, but that's OK since I only need it to record one channel. I will say that initially after connecting the composite output to the E-85, I was dismayed to see some sort of interference that did not appear when connected to the TV. A vertical shadow bar moved repeatedly across the screen on all channels which distorted the brightness. On a hunch I pulled the cables and substituted a set of higher quality ones. This eliminated the interference -- lesson learned about cheap RCA cables.

The DTX9900 has 4 display modes: zoom, which outputs a pan& scan picture to fill a 4:3 picture frame; 16x9, which outputs a letterbox image with black bars above and below; 14x9 (that's a new one by me) which crops a little off the sides and makes the black bars above and below about 1/2 the width; anamorphic which outputs exactly that, the 16x9 image without the black bars (tall & skinny people) -- so many people want this from the S-video output of their cable box and here is a little converter that delivers it through composite (or even the RF output). The E-85 dutifully records exactly what it is fed from the box and reproduces it perfectly in SP mode.

Conclusion: if you need to buy a converter box now or soon because your voucher is going to expire, this one works real good. My second voucher expires in mid June. I would like to see the TR-40 but probably won't make it. So, if I am forced to buy another box due to expiration I can easily see my way to geting another one of these.

Anyway, I first hooked it up to my Sony 32" TV through both the RF antenna input and a composite input. This unit does not support pass-through, but I find that irrelevant in my case for 2 reasons. First, the box pulls in every digital station I'm supposed to get, according to antennaweb.org, which means I get the digital equivalents of all the analog stations I receive plus more. So I have no use for analog pass-through, because with this box I have no use for analog. Second, there is a very clear difference in PQ between RF input and composite line-in. The RF PQ is not bad, it's just that the composite PQ is much better. So much so, that I would never connect this box via RF, hence pass-through is again irrelevant.

If one uses the composite out, they could always split the signal before the converter box if they wanted an analog signal.

Great post Kelson, especially about the signal strength of the Philly stations...good to know.

Keep us informed about the reliability of the converter, and whether any issues arise.

If one uses the composite out, they could always split the signal before the converter box if they wanted an analog signal.Exactly. I never daisy-chain my RF signals anyway. I use a 4-way powered splitter from the wall.

The (also forthcoming) Echostar TR-40 is an OTA ATSC converter box with composite-video, S-video, and RF NTSC output on channel 3 or 4 (just like an old-time VCR!). It is eligible for the $40 coupon, and will probably have a (non-coupon) price of not much more than $40.

From what I have been reading, the TR-40 will also take the EPG included on ATSC digital channels, and converts it into TVGOS's VBI format on its NTSC output. This way, devices with TVGOS, like my Toshiba DVR, might still work.

Now, if Echostar would just add a QAM tuner, it would be perfect. :D

As much as I would like to see the TR-40, the skeptic in me keeps saying this is way too good to be true. S-video output, full multi-channel 8-day EPG, analog pass-through, programable channel timer for VCR's. Now it's gonna' convert digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS to enable a bunch of old Panasonic DVD recorders with IR blasters. Way more features than what the competition is currently offering and all for $20 less -- and a release date that keeps slipping to late summer.

I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a marketing ploy. There are 67 some boxes that have registered to become coupon elegible. You can't believe there will be 67 different designs -- it's already known the Zenith & Insignia are the same. How much you want to bet no more than 15 of these announced boxes actually make it to market. I'll be waiting to see the TR-40, but I'm not holding my breath and I won't be surprised if it's actual feature list is curtailed from it's current press.

I sure hope the TR-50 is for real.

I have not heard that the TR-40 will have S-video? Did I miss something. For me the box will be the one to get, but I was telling myself that S-video would not be that big a deal to not have. Where have you read that the TR-40 will have S-video?

Sorry I haven't read through all these posts, but I have a question that I am curious about concerning a Digital Converter Box.

I have the Pioneer 640 DVD Recorder, it has an analog tuner and can no longer tune in channels now that I am using Verizon Fios (as my cable company) which is Digital.

Can I use a Digital Converter Box to make my Pioneer 640 capable of tuning in channels so I don't have to record from a Line Input anymore?

My current way of recording is RCA (Yellow, Red & White) Cables OUT of Cable Box, to AV Input #1 of my Pioneer 640. This only allows me to record one channel at a time and I must leave my cable box on. Will the Digital Converter Box do what I asked above, or is it only for TV reception and can't be used for a DVD Recorder or VCR?

Converter boxes can only be used for OTA antenna reception, with is the analog service that's disappearing in 2009. Cable/sat not affected. There are other converters that cost more that could do what you want. Even a digital tunered DVDR, like the Philips DVDR3575H/37, can feed a digital WS signal to your Pio 640, as I did in tests reported here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13574293#post13574293)... and I know you've got a 3575, or at least had one?

Even a digital tunered DVDR, like the Philips DVDR3575H/37, can feed a digital WS signal to your Pio 640,... and I know you've got a 3575, or at least had one?

Yes, I still have it. You mean to say that I can use my Philips to tune in channels and have my Pioneer record from that? I never tried that.

Would it work by doing this?:

Line Out of Philips, to Line In of Pioneer
Set Pioneer to correct Input
Set Philips to desired channel
Record on Pioneer from Line feed

That, unless there is a different way, is the same as Line Out of Cable Box to Input of Pioneer and recording where I can still only get one channel at a time.

How can I use the Philips to record as if my Pioneer had a Digital Tuner? (which is what I thought a Digital Converter could do).

You got it right. Here's the thread where I reported my results, just happening to use a Pio 640! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016350)

I didn't delve into the PRACTICALITY of it, just thinking of other ways to use older recorders in the new digital world by applying some stuff we might already have in our systems.

(Also, found that odd thing about Copying WS shows to DVD in the Pio 640 where the Playback TV Aspect defines the aspect of the DVD copy, and it's unchangeable!)

Once you tune the 3575 to a digital channel, the 3575's tuner is tied up, so in that sense, it's exactly like a digital converter box... but the 3575 has other drives so its HDD or DVD player AREN'T tied up for watching something else. And some people might like the more elaborate recording and editing features in their Pio 640s and other analog DVDRs, so that might be one reason to record on the older analog recorder.

Basically, my tests showed that analog DVDRs can still be used in an OTA or cable system (or even sat system...?) for reasons maybe not even thought of yet?????????????? :D

SUPLEX, I just realized the Pio 640 has an auto-record on L1 that can't be used w/normal cable signal cuz it's always there, BUT the record from digital-tunered DVDR is one way to use that feature!!! :cool:

SUPLEX, I just realized the Pio 640 has an auto-record on L1 that can't be used w/normal cable signal cuz it's always there, BUT the record from digital-tunered DVDR is one way to use that feature!!! :cool:

Actually, L1 is switchable for autorecord. I use L1 with it switched off. But, for using your 640 to record from the tuner in another device, it would be very nice. Just remember to program the other device to come on a minute, or more, before program start, so the 640 has time to come on and start before the program does.

I have not heard that the TR-40 will have S-video? Did I miss something. For me the box will be the one to get, but I was telling myself that S-video would not be that big a deal to not have. Where have you read that the TR-40 will have S-video?

No S-Video on the TR-40 accroding to the matrix at
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Additional_Features_Matrix.html

From what I have been reading, the TR-40 will also take the EPG included on ATSC digital channels, and converts it into TVGOS's VBI format on its NTSC output.I find it difficult to believe that... Can you point us to where you read this?

I have the Pioneer 640 DVD Recorder, it has an analog tuner and can no longer tune in channels now that I am using Verizon Fios (as my cable company) which is Digital.Really? I find that odd since FIOS is supposed to transmit the lower 50 channels in analog so you don't need a box for every device. At least that is how it works here in DE. Granted these lower 50 are the locals, same as what cable has to transmit in clear QAM. If you want more, the rest is encrypted and you have to rent a FIOS box.

From what I have been reading, the TR-40 will also take the EPG included on ATSC digital channels, and converts it into TVGOS's VBI format on its NTSC output. This way, devices with TVGOS, like my Toshiba DVR, might still work.

No, it will take the TVGOS data that is included in the ATSC "legacy VBI" data stream, and put it in the NTSC VBI data. It looks like this is actually a byproduct of closed-caption support. Digital OTA stations are supposed to put closed captions in the legacy VBI data, in addition to the data stream that ATSC provides for "advanced" captions. All "coupon boxes" are required (I think) to convert the legacy VBI data to true NTSC VBI. My Zenith "coupon box" converts the captions OK, for example. So the Echostar/Sling TR-40 is not unique here.

What makes the TR-40 unique among "coupon boxes", as I understand it, is that it uses the TVGOS data to populate its own program guide, instead of the program data that is included in the ATSC PSIP data stream. The other boxes simply pass the TVGOS data on to downstream devices, along with the legacy closed captions, and use PSIP data for their EPG.

Thanks, jtbell for the clarification! ;)

I find it difficult to believe that... Can you point us to where you read this?

Here is just one of the postings I have been reading ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13534941#post13534941

However, as pointed out by jtbell, this might be a misunderstanding.

Here is just one of the postings I have been reading ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13534941#post13534941

However, as pointed out by jtbell, this might be a misunderstanding.Thanks for the link. I'll be interested to hear what the real story is from someone who buys this and gives it a try...

Really? I find that odd since FIOS is supposed to transmit the lower 50 channels in analog so you don't need a box for every device. At least that is how it works here in DE. Granted these lower 50 are the locals, same as what cable has to transmit in clear QAM. If you want more, the rest is encrypted and you have to rent a FIOS box.

Yeah, I'm in New Jersey and I can't get anything on my Pio 640. My Philips 3575 will tune in channels though (due to having an ATSC Digital Tuner).

It would make sense to me that a Digital Converter would allow me to tune in channels (if I connect it directly to my Pio 640 instead of my TV) as it's supposed to convert Digital to the Analog that my Pio 640 needs, but wajo informed me that it won't work that way and he's never let me down before.

wajo:

You said there was something else I could use for what my intention is, but it's more expensive, can you give me a link to one of these devices so I can go take a look at it?

Thanks.

It would make sense to me that a Digital Converter would allow me to tune in channels (if I connect it directly to my Pio 640 instead of my TV) as it's supposed to convert Digital to the Analog that my Pio 640 needs, but wajo informed me that it won't work that way and he's never let me down before.
That's cuz the converter boxes are only for an OTA antenna signal, but your on FIOS cable.

wajo:
You said there was something else I could use for what my intention is, but it's more expensive, can you give me a link to one of these devices so I can go take a look at it?
I don't know of any myself but I've read other posts about them, the last one was by jjeff here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13588200#post13588200)

Yeah, I'm in New Jersey and I can't get anything on my Pio 640. My Philips 3575 will tune in channels though (due to having an ATSC Digital Tuner).

It would make sense to me that a Digital Converter would allow me to tune in channels (if I connect it directly to my Pio 640 instead of my TV) as it's supposed to convert Digital to the Analog that my Pio 640 needs, but wajo informed me that it won't work that way and he's never let me down before.Yeah, he's right, the digital converter boxes are are only for converting OTA ATSC to analog. FIOS transmits like cable. When you connect the 640 direct to the FIOS cable, did you configure the 640 input for cable (CATV). The 3575 is picking up digital as clear QAM.

You are in the same boat as all the cable users. To use the Pioneer 640 you will need an external QAM tuner to get the locals or rent another FIOS box to get the full range of channels.

Here's the best link for the Sammy 260 QAM/ATSC tuner. It's really a pretty good unit, and if you're able to get many QAM's in the clear(like I have been told are available from Fios)
it should work nice for you.
It has it's quirks, but output quality is not one of them, that's great.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392

Here's the best link for the Sammy 260 QAM/ATSC tuner. It's really a pretty good unit, and if you're able to get many QAM's in the clear (like I have been told are available from Fios)
it should work nice for you.
It has it's quirks, but output quality is not one of them, that's great.It'll also give you better downscaled HD PQ than any outboard SD ATSC tuner will.

If the best, possible PQ is a priority, the extra price for the Sammy is worth it. It also has a guide which you could set recordings through that works *somewhat*. I've tried all my recorders with IR blasters with the unit though, and none would control it. You can't even find a remote which has the code for it yet.

So far, I think the Zenith/Insignia and RCA SD tuners can be controlled by some IR blaster units, if that's something you want right now. But if I were going to use an SD tuner, I'd just wait for the TR-40, as that will have it's own, built-in timer (it's yet to be seen, though, if it'll actually work better than the Samsung's - the feature's just called a "VCR Timer", and doesn't specify if it will be a true, precise, manual timer. But it's said that it may be TVGOS, so if it is, it'll at least be more dependable than the PSIP guides for info and time).

You can usually find the Sammy a bit cheaper than it is at BB & CC online.

So far, I think the Zenith/Insignia and RCA SD tuners can be controlled by some IR blaster units, if that's something you want right now. But if I were going to use an SD tuner, I'd just wait for the TR-40, as that will have it's own, built-in timer (it's yet to be seen, though, if it'll actually work better than the Samsung's - the feature's just called a "VCR Timer", and doesn't specify if it will be a true, precise, manual timer. But it's said that it may be TVGOS, so if it is, it'll at least be more dependable than the PSIP guides for info and time).Remember, suplex is talking FIOS which is QAM not ATSC.

Hey thanks everyone.

Thanks to Kelson for mentioning setting the Pioneer 640's Input to CATV (I might currently have it to DTV, so I'll try that out), and thanks to jjeff for mentioning the link that lead me to the Samsung DTB-H260F as another option.

I'll play around and see what I can do.

Thanks again to everyone.

Remember, suplex is talking FIOS which is QAM not ATSC.Oops. Guess that's what happens when you try to read through too many threads too fast. :o

Are the converter boxes only supposed to pick up the sub channels or are they supposed to pick up the local analog channels as well? I have the Magnavox from Walmart and it's only getting the sub channels.

The converter boxes only tune in the ATSC digital channels; the main channel and any subchannels broadcast in your market. I believe the Philco box is the only one currently on the market that has analog pass-through through the RF output. All the rest do a channel 3-4 output of the converted digital signal or output through a composite connection (better PQ).

With the converter, if you want to tune in the analog channels as well you will have to use your TV's tuner. The best way would be to split the antenna lead into the converter box and the TV, then use the composite connection to hook the box to your TV. If you have to only use RF, you will still need to split the antenna lead: one end into the converter box, one end into an A/B switch; the RF out of the converter box into the other leg of the A/B switch then the switch output into your TV. Then you will have to use the A/B switch to toggle between digital and analog feed.

Obviously, life would be much easier if these things worked like a VCR and had a switchable RF modulator and button on the remote for "TV/digital" to toggle pass-through.

Hey Kelson:

I'm not too sure I would be interested in switching back and forth (probably just leave it on one or the other), but what I really want to make sure of is this:

If I get the Samsung DTB-H260F and connect it to my Pioneer 640, will I be able to record...let's say channel 50 (for example)...by leaving my cable box on channel 50 and setting my Pioneer to record from Line 1 (like I currently do), or will I be able to actually have the Pioneer (through the Samsung device) tune in channel 50 and record it that way? Even to the point where I could turn my TV on and view a different channel through my cable box.

If I can only go the Line 1 route, it's not worth the extra device to do it the same way anyhow. I'm fully expecting my Pioneer 640 to work (using it's own tuner assisted by the Samsung box) exactly how it did before I switched to Verizon when almost all of the channels would tune in (when my cable company was sending an Analog signal). If it can't do that, or if nothing can do that, then I might as well stay how I am.

Just as a side note, Verizon doesn't like the signal being split (not meaning the company frowns upon it, but that you don't get good results when splitting a signal) so I currently have my Coaxial line being "daisy chained" instead of split multiple ways.

suplex, I really don't know much about the Samsung tuner other than it cost about $170 so it isn't cheap. Jjeff seems to know much more.

If you really want to use your Pioneer to the fullest and are willing to buy an external QAM tuner, why not just consider renting another FIOS box? You get all the channels and can you program the FIOS box?

Suplex, in your case the only thing the Samsung would do would be to eliminate your STB for the digital channels. You will still need your Pio to record the analogs since the Sammy only has the digital tuners. Also note with the Sammy when the box is OFF it attenuates the passthru signal I'd guess 10+db(quite a bit). If you just leave it ON all the time it actually amplifies the passthru a little(according to manual). I posted how many watts the Sammy drew when on, in the 260 thread in HDTV reception hardware forum, but I think it was something like 15? watts. Not nothing, but not a lot either.

So in your case I'd have the Sammy be first in coax line(leaving ON all the time) then have coax go to your Pio, followed by TV. To record digitals select Line 1 as you currently do. To record analogs just tune those in with your Pio.
If your TV has a QAM tuner you'd be able to watch any channel while recording any other channel. Of course channels that were "in the clear".
I liked the PQ of the Sammy but for $60 more I got the EZ-28 DVDR which works out better for me, since I can record from different channels when away from home. As noted the Sammy has a program scheduler but in my area it only went out form 12hrs up to about 3 days. Not very handy for weekend trips.
BTW to use the Sammy you should really have a TV with component or HDMI inputs. Their the only ports the OSD's are displayed.

I subscribe to analog cable, but I got two vouchers anyway, and I've been wondering why since the boxes are for OTA only.

I've been thinking the wrong way... all cable subscribers should get one or more boxes for their analog TVs and connect rabbit ears (or other antenna) just to ADD OTA digital channels to their analog cable channels.

Most of the boxes don't have analog passthru, which is OK for analog cable subscribers since they get their analog channels thru the coax, and the boxes send their digital channels thru line output (Composite mostly).

As long as your old analog TV has at least one line input, a converter box will expand your channel selection... possibly dramatically cuz when I tried a powered rabbit ears in my city, 50 miles or so between large cities in opposite directions, I got quite a few clear channels not delivered in my basic analog cable subscription.

If this has been discussed before, I apologize... I didn't get the memo! :D

Usually much better PQ OTA, too.

Also, if you've got satellite, and pay extra for the locals, you can drop them.

New forum for CECB:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=186