Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming? I'm guessing that most folks will be watching a downconverted (via there "digital" cable or sat. box, etc.) version of the HDTV broadcast (primetime show or sporting event). This will then be presented as widescreen on their 4:3 screens with black bars above and below. Is this a logical guess? I can see a lot of folks (J6Ps) complaining about that, especially those not interested in HDTV or widescreen content.

Has anyone else thought about this? I mean most folks here could care less (since we have HDTV sets or projectors) but I'm wondering about folks like my parents or grandparents :)

-D

Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming? I'm guessing that most folks will be watching a downconverted (via there "digital" cable or sat. box, etc.) version of the HDTV broadcast (primetime show or sporting event). This will then be presented as widescreen on their 4:3 screens with black bars above and below. Is this a logical guess? I can see a lot of folks (J6Ps) complaining about that, especially those not interested in HDTV or widescreen content.

Has anyone else thought about this? I mean most folks here could care less (since we have HDTV sets or projectors) but I'm wondering about folks like my parents or grandparents :)

-D

MIght be an issue, but right now, a couple of affiliates in my area (NBC & ABC, I believe) broadcast both digital SD & HD signals. So a digital/4:3 signal could still be present atfer '09.

Of course, some NBC primetime stuff has been "widescreen" for some time, even in SD (L&O:SVU, Conan OBrien, even back to the 2nd or 3rd season of WEST WING), so the "shock" may not be too bad if downconverted HD is all there is for non-HD folk.

First, I think people have had way more than enough time to upgrade to a widescreen TV*. Second, why not just put a "zoom" button on the OTA DtoA converter boxes that are coming out, problem solved there.

* I don't think the industry has done enough to let people know widescreen TV's need not be HDTV. From what I've seen, they exist but are hard to find, and really not much cheaper than low end 720p sets.

Protecting the 4x3 area on HDTV broadcasts will continue for some time. Except many programs to continue to be 4x3 safe so viewers can center cut the show to watch in full screen 4x3.

ATSC supports AFD (http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/atsc/2006.07.12-f_JerryWhitaker.shtml) (Active Format Description) so supported downconverters will be able to automatically switch between center cut or letterbox or somewhere in between (14:9 letterbox). The networks and stations will also have to support AFD. So far there's little if any support for ATSC transmission.

Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming? I'm guessing that most folks will be watching a downconverted (via there "digital" cable or sat. box, etc.) version of the HDTV broadcast (primetime show or sporting event). This will then be presented as widescreen on their 4:3 screens with black bars above and below. Is this a logical guess? I can see a lot of folks (J6Ps) complaining about that, especially those not interested in HDTV or widescreen content.

Has anyone else thought about this? I mean most folks here could care less (since we have HDTV sets or projectors) but I'm wondering about folks like my parents or grandparents :)

-D

In Charlottesville, VA, all the local stations save NBC29 center cut their HD feed for their SD broadcast (rather than letterbox). If something appears outside the 4:3 frame, you just can't see it.

This is good information that I was not aware of. Thanks.

Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming? I'm guessing that most folks will be watching a downconverted (via there "digital" cable or sat. box, etc.) version of the HDTV broadcast (primetime show or sporting event). ......
-D

As you may already realize from other posts, "digital" does not mean "widescreen", nor "HD" ... Simply that "analog" Over the Air Broadcasts must switch to a digital OTA signal by '09, making older analog channel TV tuners incapable of producing a picture/sound on that TV set.. ....
Most OTA channels have/will have a 4:3 SD Digital transmission/feed of their programming ...
& there will still be plenty of SD cable channels that will not be affected , since they aren't OTA, & will be business as usual for anyone with a plain old cable box, & not using an OTA antenna...

My Dish Network 622 HD DVR has a second TV output that goes to a SD TV. The remote for this TV allows you to switch between letterboxed or center cut of HD programming. To switch you just press the '*' button on the remote.

Rick R

I would expect AFD to be a big thing for NBC and all its widescreen shows. But FOX, ABC, and CBS still center-cut their HD feeds for SD and'll probably be asking for their shows to continue being filmed to support the same tactic for years after shutoff.

Also, expect HD commercials to become 4x3 center-cut safe if they haven't already. Nissan and Apple have been doing this, and stuff from Visa and UPS's Whiteboard campaign is technically 4x3-safe, even though the SD versions are widescreen.

The networks and stations will also have to support AFD.Will? I thought I read that NBC only uses it internally and the other nets still don't support it at all. If the requirement will be implemented at some future date, do you know what it is?

Yes, MeatChicken, I'm aware of the differences between HD, SD digital, etc. I was writing about HDTV primetime content in particular.

As you may already realize from other posts, "digital" does not mean "widescreen", nor "HD" ... Simply that "analog" Over the Air Broadcasts must switch to a digital OTA signal by '09, making older analog channel TV tuners incapable of producing a picture/sound on that TV set.. ....
Most OTA channels have/will have a 4:3 SD Digital transmission/feed of their programming ...
& there will still be plenty of SD cable channels that will not be affected , since they aren't OTA, & will be business as usual for anyone with a plain old cable box, & not using an OTA antenna...

Will? I thought I read that NBC only uses it internally and the other nets still don't support it at all. If the requirement will be implemented at some future date, do you know what it is?No clue. It's not only important for the home receiver, but also for the 4:3 SD feed on the cable and sat companies.

In Charlottesville, VA, all the local stations save NBC29 center cut their HD feed for their SD broadcast (rather than letterbox). If something appears outside the 4:3 frame, you just can't see it.
It's not the local stations center cutting, it's the networks. I'm almost certain that affiliates are not allowed to center cut the HD feed for the SD channel, since it would also cut off the bug.

KASW here in Phoenix centercuts their HD broadcast for the analog channel. However, they are a CW affiliate and CW apparently intended for affiliates to be able to do this when they positioned the bug in the 4:3 safe area. Sister station KTVK, an independent, does the same thing.

However, they are a CW affiliate and CW apparently intended for affiliates to be able to do this when they positioned the bug in the 4:3 safe area.
Oh I'm sorry, I was talking about the real networks. I should have mentioned that.



:p

I think an interesting issue for AFDs is preserving them on networks where local stations decode and recode. You would have to pass-through the AFD for network material, but add your own for local stuff. This would presumably have to be done by metadata accompanying the network feed?

(In the UK we have AFDs in use on our SD 16:9 networks for 4:3 material - I think they are preserved by the MPEG2 decoders on the network feed embedding line 23 WSS carrying the AFD flags, which are then either used to control an ARC generating an analogue 4:3 network feed of either 4:3 centre cut / 14:9 letterbox or 16:9 letterbox, an ARC switching between a 4:3 centre cut 4:3 feed and 16:9 full-height feed - creating a mixed aspect ratio feed for satellite which uses MPEG header aspect ratio switching, or re-encoded as an AFD for OTA which is permanent 16:9 with 4:3 material pillarboxed)

Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming?Perhaps in a twist of irony, they'll be seeing 16:9 stretched vertically to fit a 4:3 screen. :D

I sort of have an idea of what it might look like.

I have a small Panasonic 13" analog TV in the kitchen that is connected to one of those Radio Shack wireless AV receivers. The sender unit is attached to a DirecTV HR20-700 in the bedroom. When there is an HD broadcast, the Panasonic displays a "center cut" picture.

Another few AFD questions: Are all the coupon boxes supposed to fully support AFD? Are all ATSC tuners made available after the first of 2008, or some other specific date, supposed to support AFD? Are tuners already required?

All tuners sold in the US are suppose to implement the complete PSIP Protocol. There is no requirement that they do and many do not include the complete suite of protocols which would include AFD.

AFD was added after the ATSC service began.

Something that I've been thinking about lately is when the analog shutoff happens in 2009, what will all those folks that have 4:3 analog tubes be seeing for aspect ratio on HDTV (not just digital SD) programming? I'm guessing that most folks will be watching a downconverted (via there "digital" cable or sat. box, etc.) version of the HDTV broadcast (primetime show or sporting event). This will then be presented as widescreen on their 4:3 screens with black bars above and below. Is this a logical guess? I can see a lot of folks (J6Ps) complaining about that, especially those not interested in HDTV or widescreen content.

We had a thread like this two months ago. New STB 16:9 to 4:3 options by 2009? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919828)
And another two months before: How long until TV graphics, other content is truly formatted in 16:9? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=896280)

The answer is: 16:9 will be center-cut to 4:3, unless...

It's not the local stations center cutting, it's the networks. I'm almost certain that affiliates are not allowed to center cut the HD feed for the SD channel, since it would also cut off the bug.

... cutting off the bug becomes an issue that bothers the networks. Then they can either force letterboxing or move their bug to the 4:3 area. *shudder*

Another few AFD questions: Are all the coupon boxes supposed to fully support AFD? Are all ATSC tuners made available after the first of 2008, or some other specific date, supposed to support AFD? Are tuners already required?

The coupon-certified boxes probably will support AFD. The LG box was certified a couple of months ago and according to the press release it includes "an all-format ATSC receiver, flexible 4:3 and 16:9 display formats, PSIP processing (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6487995.html)". If the boxes don't support AFD, a lot of people would be pretty mad at having everything center-cut, which would cut off characters on shows like Heroes or PBS's Nature. On the flipside, having everything letterboxed would make sports graphics hard to read.

Ideally, the converter boxes will allow the user to set either a 4:3 center-cut or 4:3 letterbox preference, just like DVD players. Factory setting would be 4:3 center-cut (aka, pan & scan). Networks could then flag for "no letterbox" on pillarboxed programming and "no center-cut" on movies and 16:9 shows. If I want to watch football letterboxed, I can set my box to do so. Otherwise, it gets center-cut.

Ideally, the converter boxes will allow the user to set either a 4:3 center-cut or 4:3 letterbox preference, just like DVD players.
I wish they would just make it letterboxed, or stretched. Let the dullards fill their whole screen with the entire 16:9 frame, so that the rest of us don't have to endure 4:3-framed content for years to come.

I have 1 SD digital tv, a 13 inch Durabrand. It has an option for 16:9 digital broadcasts to be displayed either letterboxed, center cut, or scrunched. he factory setting was letterbox. I changed it to center cut. Most shows I use this set for are not widescreen, so it would look really stupid to be bot5h letterboxed and pillarboxed. I rarely use this set to watch programs broadcast in HD widescreen, but for those rare occasions, I would rather see a center cut picture than a letterboxed one.

What is this AFD stuff? Are you saying that a network could add some "flag" to their signal that would cause my tv to not allow me to choose center cut? That is crazy! If my tv is prograsmmed to give me a choice to center cut, letterbox, or scrunch, why should the network be allowed to insert some stupid "flag" into their signal that forces my tv to disallow a function?

What is this AFD stuff? Are you saying that a network could add some "flag" to their signal that would cause my tv to not allow me to choose center cut? That is crazy! If my tv is prograsmmed to give me a choice to center cut, letterbox, or scrunch, why should the network be allowed to insert some stupid "flag" into their signal that forces my tv to disallow a function?

The AFD flag would put the programming into the proper aspect ratio it was meant to be broadcast in. You would still be able to stretch, zoom, or shrink the programming however you want.

The answer is: 16:9 will be center-cut to 4:3, unless...

It's not the local stations center cutting, it's the networks. I'm almost certain that affiliates are not allowed to center cut the HD feed for the SD channel, since it would also cut off the bug.
... cutting off the bug becomes an issue that bothers the networks. Then they can either force letterboxing or move their bug to the 4:3 area. *shudder*They could mimic a tactic that WUSA-DT in DC does for their HD news. A "9 HD" logo is placed onto the feed before it's 4x3 center-cut for SD viewers. However, the "9 HD" logo is designed in a way that only the "9" can be seen on SD CRT models (like 99% of SDTVs are CRTs). Part of the "H" in HD technically enters the 4x3 frame, but after the overscan that CRT SDTVs naturally apply, no trace of the "HD" portion of the logo can be seen.

the "9 HD" logo is designed in a way that only the "9" can be seen on SD CRT models
The two stations here in Detroit that do HD news have the "HD" right with their regular logo, fully in the 4:3 area. The first station originally had an "HD" bug that was in the 16:9 area. But once the second station started doing HD news, and had their "HD" in the 4:3 area, the first station quickly followed along. I am vehemently against anything that could confuse Joe Sixpack into thinking he's watching HD when he's not, so I really don't like this practice at all. The way WUSA does it is interesting, though.

Don't worry, it's not going to be a problem.

***Don't read this is if you haven't seen 'Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back' yet still intend to do so***


It going to be sort of like the end of the previously mentioned movie. In Feb of 2009, I'm going to have a long list of addresses of everyone who owns a 4x3 TV, and an armload of airline tickes--both supplied by the FCC. I will then fly/drive to each home and smash their antiquated TV with a baseball bat. I know it's harsh, but it has to be done for our society to progress. It will be tough for me too, as I will have to deal with numerous gun owners and all the people who possess both the will and ability to kick my butt. On the upside, I get to keep the frequent flyer miles.

The AFD flag would put the programming into the proper aspect ratio it was meant to be broadcast in. You would still be able to stretch, zoom, or shrink the programming however you want.
That's right. Just like a DVD player will let you zoom into the picture, no matter what aspect ratio the movie is.