I think everybody know that is DVD-Audio.
Just several months ago the First HD DVD-Audio (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868153&highlight=Uncommon+Bach) title was introduced to the public by Surround Music artist and producer Alexander Jero, and 6 more titles is out created by this artist.
The concept is to produce HD DVD titles with lossless Multichannel Audio created especially created for this kind of experience accompanied by high resolution Image content.
Can this be the way of how we can experience music in the future?

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

Hard to carry an entire stereo system in my pocket while I'm working. Not everyone just sits around in their house and listens to music believe it or not.

Hard to carry an entire stereo system in my pocket while I'm working. Not everyone just sits around in their house and listens to music believe it or not.
Exactly. The majority of people won't take the time to sit down surrounded by speakers just to listen to music.

SACD = fail
DVD-Audio = fail
HD DVD Audio = fail
(Insert surround sound audio format) = fail

Hard to carry an entire stereo system in my pocket while I'm working. Not everyone just sits around in their house and listens to music believe it or not.

True, but many of us commute in cars, and some luxury cars already have 5.1 DVD-Audio setups standard.

Seeing as I can crank my music in the car, fidelity is key.

My point is while mp3 and the like are great for portable music, they should not become the sole delivery method for music, as many people still use music on something other than ear buds.

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

Interesting: D
Sorry, but your post beyond my understanding

Exactly. The majority of people won't take the time to sit down surrounded by speakers just to listen to music.

SACD = fail
DVD-Audio = fail
HD DVD Audio = fail
(Insert surround sound audio format) = fail

But you not carry HDTV in your pocket as well, you sit down and watching it.
Why are you regecting that fact?

My opinion
future of HD DVD Audio = future of HD DVD

becouse you tell by this forum that people are interested in High Rez Audio as well as High Rez Video.

I think everybody know that is DVD-Audio.
Just several months ago the First HD DVD-Audio (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868153&highlight=Uncommon+Bach) title was introduced to the public by Surround Music artist and producer Alexander Jero, and 6 more titles is out created by this artist.
The concept is to produce HD DVD titles with lossless Multichannel Audio created especially created for this kind of experience accompanied by high resolution Image content.
Can this be the way of how we can experience music in the future?While I would certainly hope that HD multichannel releases become the standard format for music releases, I am far from optimistic that they will. Considering the cost involved and the rather small market, why would any of the mainstream producers think it more viable than SACD or DVD-A?

That said, I recently greatly enjoyed the Opus Arte HD-DVDs of "A Midsummer's Night Dream" and of "Die Zauberflöte." Beautiful images and great music and these were not even pushing the envelope for sound quality.

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

Some of those tic-tac cases support lossless compression. Of course, that's only half the battle (headphone amplification being the other part).

True, but many of us commute in cars, and some luxury cars already have 5.1 DVD-Audio setups standard.

Seeing as I can crank my music in the car, fidelity is key.

My point is while mp3 and the like are great for portable music, they should not become the sole delivery method for music, as many people still use music on something other than ear buds.

the real problem is that the portable player, for the masses, has become the sit-down, in the house player, too. all those i-pod docks, all the cords that connect i-pods to receivers, etc... people don't want to have a music collection twice; why bother when you can just plug your mp3/itunes player into a receiver, and have it play that way?

but this doesn't speak to hi res audio. there can be hi res audio without hd-dvd; distributed in a digital format over the internet for people who are willing to pay a premium for it. this will likely be through i-tunes type services, where they can just pick the songs they want and pay $1.50 instead of $15 for the whole cd. hd dvd audio may become a replacement for cd's somewhere down the line, if hi res audio begins to surpass normal itunes fair in the future.

i think this is one of those situations where adoption is going to have to happen through the internet, and then b&m music stores have to hope that people want the hard copies.

i think normal cd audio is on a downward trend simply because it's easier to download what you want through a service and burn it to your hard drive/mp3 player/ipod/cell phone. eventually (maybe in 10-15 years, max) i think hard copy audio altogether will be an niche product, much like LPs are now.

remember, the current generation is being raised on pocket-music and convenience. they're not going to change as they grow up.

i no longer believe the average person cares about high resolution music, nor do i believe the music studios care about reselling their products using technology that addresses the piracy problems they allegedly face. I love my SACD, but its pathetic how pervasive crap quality music is these days, and no one seems to actually care.

I certainly hope for HD DVD Audio releases.

HD DVD concerts is also something I'd like to see more of.

But you not carry HDTV in your pocket as well, you sit down and watching it.
Why are you regecting that fact?

Because there is no need to acknowledge that "fact" in the first place, as it is irrelevant. Audio ≠ video.

future of HD DVD Audio = future of HD DVD
Well I sure hope not, because I'd like to see HD DVD succeed.

Because there is no need to acknowledge that "fact" in the first place, as it is irrelevant. Audio ≠ video.


Well I sure hope not, because I'd like to see HD DVD succeed.

You talk like a true pessimist, that I actually meant that HD DVD-Audio will follow HD DVD.

People love to sit down and listen to music and surround sound is the part of HDTV experience now

People love to sit down and listen to music and surround sound is the part of HDTV experience nowUnfortunately, there are all too few (of us) who do. Most listen on the fly or with the music as wallpaper.

Unfortunately, there are all too few (of us) who do. Most listen on the fly or with the music as wallpaper.

True. I'm the only person I know who takes time to just listen to high quality multichannel music. Everyone I know thinks I'm crazy to continue investing in DVD-Audio and SACD when cheaper, but much lesser quality alternatives are available.

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

My 'tic tac case' supports flac ;)

Unfortunately, there are all too few (of us) who do. Most listen on the fly or with the music as wallpaper.


Wallpaper or background music, why not, the idea is to create perfect HD audio/video environment. You can be in the mood for movie or music but stay surround by HD Experience without changing format.

its pathetic how pervasive crap quality music is these days

Are you talking about delivery format, production or, you know, the music? :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law

You have to admit, though, that mp3, internet radio and such provide a much better way of discovering music than homogenized FM, at least in the U.S.. Remember how CD sales spiked after napster?

I think HT enthusiasm helps serve as a gateway to education about audio. It seems like a wider range of people actually bother to research their HT options and setups than how to properly set up a two channel system, even if it's only a HTIB. So maybe there's hope yet.

My opinion: HD DVD Audio will be COMPLETELY irrelevant. Nobody cares. Err... Scratch that. Almost nobody cares.

And I say this as someone who owns DVD Audio hardware and software.

Multi-channel audio (without video) only appeals to a niche demographic and is destined to remain that way. Remember "Video Killed The Radio Star"? Well it's happening again. Most people buying HDTVs aren't concerned that much with sound. I mean, they get their HTiBs and all, but at the end of the day if they aren't watching a movie, they won't sit down in the living room to listen to music.

Listen, I really love music, and multichannel audio appeals to me, but try convincing your family to:

1) Leave you alone in your living room "sweet spot" so you can listen to multi-channel audio

2) Join you in your living room only for them to get bored a minute after sitting down

Read what BuGsArEtAsTy wrote. He owns DVD-Audio hardware and software and is convinced that it won't take off. Columnists in audiophile magazines are convinced as well.

Convenience has beaten quality to the ground. People want to listen to their music everywhere they go, and multi-channel cannot follow them everywhere.

What's the quality of these types of HD-DVD audio discs compared to SACD?

You release one Beatles album in multichannel surround with HD footage of the group thrown in as video background to the album and everyone would buy it. A high profile release would open eyes to the possibilities, and that's all it might take.

You release one Beatles album in multichannel surround with HD footage of the group thrown in as video background to the album and everyone would buy it. A high profile release would open eyes to the possibilities, and that's all it might take.

"This is gonna replace CDs soon. Guess I'll have to buy the White Album again."

/alien technology

:D

Multi-channel audio (without video) only appeals to a niche demographic and is destined to remain that way. Remember "Video Killed The Radio Star"? Well it's happening again. Most people buying HDTVs aren't concerned that much with sound. I mean, they get their HTiBs and all, but at the end of the day if they aren't watching a movie, they won't sit down in the living room to listen to music.

Listen, I really love music, and multichannel audio appeals to me, but try convincing your family to:

1) Leave you alone in your living room "sweet spot" so you can listen to multi-channel audio

2) Join you in your living room only for them to get bored a minute after sitting down

Read what BuGsArEtAsTy wrote. He owns DVD-Audio hardware and software and is convinced that it won't take off. Columnists in audiophile magazines are convinced as well.

Convenience has beaten quality to the ground. People want to listen to their music everywhere they go, and multi-channel cannot follow them everywhere.


If we talking about social aspects I can point that many people are buying this new HD DVD-Audio titles to have it as a introduction of the movie event, and it is work great for this porpoise.

However economically everybody look at that from the DVD-A downfall point of view, NO, TRY TO LOOK AT THIS AS A HD DVD PRODUCT:);)

The only fact I can think of that might help is that there are more 5.1 surround sound systems in people's homes now and a lot of concert DVDs have very impressive sound. It's not hard to be impressed by how good they sound.

I think this will increase the demand for high quality surround channel recordings but it will still be a niche market for audiophiles who simply must have the highest quality recording available, just like the half-speed mastered vinyl recordings were in the 70's and 80's.

But there's nothing wrong with creating a product that fills a niche market. That's what HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are doing right now.

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

I always hear people say that but honestly I have mp3's that would blow away FM. In fact all the ones I have sound way better than what you hear on the FM. Maybe the people who say this are errrrrrrr converting their songs into sub 128k.

I run daily, and have an I-pod I use when I run. However, besides that, I never use the thing unless I'm on an airplane for business or something like that. It sounds like crap on a decent stereo system. I have no need to walk the streets wearing it and look like some sort of moron. And don't get me started on the I-phone, between that thing and text messaging I'm afraid to get near anyone on the road under 24 years old.

High-res audio won't survive without it being part of a live album, or at least some sort of visual component. The Dave Matthews Blu-Ray concert is incredible, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't consider it if it didn't have the video to match the audio. Ok, to be fair, some of us would, but generally speaking, it simply wouldn't be enough stimulation for people.

My opinion: HD DVD Audio will be COMPLETELY irrelevant. Nobody cares. Err... Scratch that. Almost nobody cares.

And I say this as someone who owns DVD Audio hardware and software.

yea, i think this is right... as one who owns several "tic tac" cases and dvd-a hardware, i think that it falls into the category of "very few will care"...

i'd buy it... a few others here would... but i can't see it being anything but ancillary to hd-dvd...

too bad... since some of us fall into the category of using both...

it's a fact of modern day life that people have several more entertainment options than just sitting and listening to music... not to mention the fact that they have many more things crammed into their lives now than they used to (no comment on whether or not that's "good" or "bad", it's just the way it is)... some of us are lucky enough that we can still have an hour or two every now and then to put on a good recording and really listen to it... but most don't... attention span is an issue as well...

I am one of those people who is continuously surrounded by music. I use my iPod a lot, but I also have a high quality SACD/DVD-A music system for serious listening, and I use it.

There is NO disc format that is the "future of the music industry," because the future of music-as-big-business is all about downloadable media and portable devices, about wireless in-home distribution, about cross-media promotion.

But the fact that lossless multichannel music is a niche market means something different than it did ten or twenty years ago. Niche markets are sustainable now. Profit can be made selling 10,000 units of a title, a number that would have been an abject failure before the Internet cut the cost of promotion by several orders of magnitude.

I agree that DVD-A and SACD failed due to lack of interest. Poor promotion helped, but public indifference was the real killer. People don't even care about the difference between a Redbook CD and a 128k mpg file, let alone hi-rez surround audio.

But today, that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. There are enough people interested in HR audio to allow the band Porcupine Tree, for instance, to continue releasing both their current output and their back catalog in DVD-A. They do it mostly with viral marketing, word-of-mouth on forums like this, and direct promotion to their audience.

Sure, I wish everything I wanted to listen to was available in the best possible quality. Maybe someday it will be. But it won't be on physical media that has to be manufactured, packaged, shipped and sold one unit at a time.

If we talking about social aspects I can point that many people are buying this new HD DVD-Audio titles to have it as a introduction of the movie event, and it is work great for this porpoise.;)
Smells a bit fishy to me. (And, yes, I am aware of the taxonomic faux pas.)

Smells a bit fishy to me.

It was in a context Kal, person was talking about how to get people to listen to music during a home theater event.

Listen, I really love music, and multichannel audio appeals to me, but try convincing your family to:

1) Leave you alone in your living room "sweet spot" so you can listen to multi-channel audio

2) Join you in your living room only for them to get bored a minute after sitting down.

I agree that DVD-A and SACD failed due to lack of interest. Poor promotion helped, but public indifference was the real killer. People don't even care about the difference between a Redbook CD and a 128k mpg file, let alone hi-rez surround audio.

High resolution music audio really is a niche within a niche, so I don't foresee another physical format supplanting the CD - at least for stereo mixes. This may change in the future if hardware advancements that allow for ubiquitous virtual surround systems or wireless micro speakers spark a wider interest in surround music mixes that can be appreciated outside of an expensive dedicated listening environment. That would be cool.

Personally, I am one of those people that audiophiles despise: someone who *cannot* hear the difference between a 192 kbps VBR MP3 and the original CD in a blind A/B listening test - even on fairly decent studio monitors and headphones. If I could hear a difference I might care, but I can't so I don't.

Thus for most people like me, even standard 44.1 KHz / 16-bit CDs are overkill, but at least useful for archival and transcoding purposes. Higher resolution audio formats are completely irrelevant for all but the fortunate few who are simultaneously blessed with golden ears for subtle aural discrimination and a hefty pocketbook for the finest audio equipment (not to mention the unfortunate few who are cursed by the placebo affect).

It is a tough race now. Buying internet downloaded lossless 5.1 music (Music Giants) is not very hard -- in fact way too easy for an impulse purchase. Control the wine intake....

I also buy some music/concerts on HD DVD. We need, IMHO, that proposed low Performance Level to eliminate the need for a video display.

Personally, I am one of those people that audiophiles despise: someone who *cannot* hear the difference between a 192 kbps VBR MP3 and the original CD in a blind A/B listening test - even on fairly decent studio monitors and headphones. If I could hear a difference I might care, but I can't so I don't.

Thus for most people like me, even standard 44.1 KHz / 16-bit CDs are overkill, but at least useful for archival and transcoding purposes. Higher resolution audio formats are completely irrelevant for all but the fortunate few who are simultaneously blessed with golden ears for subtle aural discrimination and a hefty pocketbook for the finest audio equipment (not to mention the unfortunate few who are cursed by the placebo affect).

I believe you could hear the difference. You might not care. However, you could hear the difference. People could hear the difference between vinyl and cassettes. However, cassettes were more portable, so that's what they bought. When CD's appeared, cassettes went out the window (in a few cases literally), since CD's had portability, instant access, greater durability and higher fidelity. (I know it was the durability and instant access, but the fidelity was marketed as well.)

HD-DVD audio and/or Blu-Ray audio *could* supplant DVD-Audio and SACD. However, the problem is that it's yet another format war, and the same players would take similar sides. Instead of the big four, we would have the big 8.

HD-DVD
Universal = Universal/Vivendi

Blu-Ray
Sony = Sony/BMG

Who knows?
Warner = Warner
EMI?

I maybe repeating myself but The Idea is to consider these new HD DVD-Audio titles as a part of HD Home Theater Experience, not a just stand along Audiophile application like DVD-A and SACD.

High resolution music audio really is a niche within a niche, so I don't foresee another physical format supplanting the CD - at least for stereo mixes. This may change in the future if hardware advancements that allow for ubiquitous virtual surround systems or wireless micro speakers spark a wider interest in surround music mixes that can be appreciated outside of an expensive dedicated listening environment. That would be cool.

Personally, I am one of those people that audiophiles despise: someone who *cannot* hear the difference between a 192 kbps VBR MP3 and the original CD in a blind A/B listening test - even on fairly decent studio monitors and headphones. If I could hear a difference I might care, but I can't so I don't.

Thus for most people like me, even standard 44.1 KHz / 16-bit CDs are overkill, but at least useful for archival and transcoding purposes. Higher resolution audio formats are completely irrelevant for all but the fortunate few who are simultaneously blessed with golden ears for subtle aural discrimination and a hefty pocketbook for the finest audio equipment (not to mention the unfortunate few who are cursed by the placebo affect).

i pretty much fall into that "despised" category as well (it was rather disappointing to me when i found this out), but i still buy SACDs... they still sound better, because the mastering/mixing/etc. tends to be better...

I believe you could hear the difference. You might not care. However, you could hear the difference. People could hear the difference between vinyl and cassettes. However, cassettes were more portable, so that's what they bought. When CD's appeared, cassettes went out the window (in a few cases literally), since CD's had portability, instant access, greater durability and higher fidelity. (I know it was the durability and instant access, but the fidelity was marketed as well.)
OK, maybe 192 Kbps MP3. I did this very test and COULD hear the difference... sometimes... between 192 Kbps Fraunhofer MP3 and the original CD. However, that got much, much harder at 192 Kbps iTunes AAC. At 256 Kbps, AAC I can't tell the difference. I'm sure that someone could point me towards very specific content and tell me what to listen for so that I'd occasionally be able to tell the difference, but the point is that 256 Kbps AAC sounds basically transparent to me, when compared to CD.

And DVD-Audio doesn't really sound significantly better... just more... as in more tracks. Sacrilege I know, but that's my own experience, and I tend to hear a lot more differences than the average person (although maybe not the average AVSer). Most of the people I know can't tell the difference between the original CD and 192 Mbps Fraunhofer MP3.

Furthermore, I personally think that 24-bit 48 KHz audio is already overkill for 99.99% of the population. Some may say no, then I'd say then definitely 24-bit 96 Khz audio is definitely already overkill for 99.99999999% of the population... and this is already available on DVD-Audio... and still nobody cares about it.

However, I agree with others that we may see better concerts on disc. HD DVD essentially gives us DVD Audio level sound with room for high quality hi-def video as well, and I think these HD DVD concert discs will likely sell better than DVD Audio and SACD discs. I just don't see audio-only discs selling very well on HD DVD.

I believe you could hear the difference. You might not care. However, you could hear the difference.
You can believe what you want, but I did extensive testing before I converted my CD collection to hard drive in order to determine the optimal bitrate where I could not detect a drop in quality and whether or not to go with a lossless file format. I finally settled on LAME MP3 @ -V2 (alt-preset-standard) and it's great to have the convenience and compactness of digital files. If you haven't tried an experiment like this yourself, you might be surprised by the results. It is critical to set it up as an ABX blind test where you don't know what the source is, so you don't subconsciously bias the results. Hybrid SACD make good test sources since you can compare SACD-to-CD-to-MP3 on the same mix. Anyway, lossy audio has been debated ad nauseum in other places, so there's no reason to repeat it here.

Back on the topic of surround music, it really is a great experience with a well-done mix, but the necessity of the listener to be anchored to a sweet spot just does not jive with most people's music listening habits. Hardware technology to enable a more flexible listening environment needs to come first. Additionally, yet another physical disc format doesn't really seem necessary or desirable even if the concept takes off.

Back on the topic of surround music, it really is a great experience with a well-done mix, but the necessity of the listener to be anchored to a sweet spot just does not jive with most people's music listening habits.The "sweet spot" is a lot bigger thanks to the center channel. Stereo has a very small "sweet spot" to get the center vocalist/instruments to appear in the proper position. IIRC the original idea/research when moving up from monaural sound was to do 3 channel. But they skimped out due to cost. The extra surround sound channels really help to replicate the performance location. Ever hear a church choir live in a large European stone cathedral? The sound just goes on and on...:)

Can HD DVD-Audio be the future of the Music Industry?

No, that would be OTA HD Radio.
http://www.hdradio.com/

http://www.hdradio.com/the_buzz.php?thebuzz=232

For somebody who did not do it yet
You should check this titles out. (http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Surround_Records)
to know that we was talking about at the first place.

Can HD DVD-Audio be the future of the Music Industry?
Not a chance, in my opinion, for numerous reasons.

The future of the music industry is not at all a business of selling recordings on discs, no matter how much they really, really want it to stay that way. CDs will become a relative niche market, and downloads will be the bulk of the market, though they are not yet there. Maybe at some point, high bit rates or lossless compression will become selling points, but even those will be a small minority of the business, especially if companies try to charge extra for them.

The future of the recorded music business is here now, and it is on Amazon.

One thing that many people overlook in these discussions is that hard drive and flash memory technology continues to improve at a rapid pace. Pretty soon those tic-tac portable players will have so much space on them that compression won't be necessary. I can only hope that high-res audio will make a come back at that time.

I see HD DVD Audio (or multi channel TrueHD/DTS MA, pcm) as a natural progression. It is not like SACD or DVD Audio because the devices, here HDTVs, will drive the market and since that market is growing exponentially, it is natural to release to the specs of that market. HD media is increasing progressively and the very affordable devices which play it (HD DVD players, Blu Ray players) are slowly but surely moving in that same HDTV market. Doesn't mean it will become ubiquitous - doesn't have to be an all or nothing - but certainly the very good possibility is that this type of high-def audio will become more commonplace than SACD and DVD-Audio ever was.

I just happened to shine a flashlight at my LCD panel on my XA2 the other night and saw HD-DVD-A and SACD.

Don't know why they are there. Someone else suggested that the LCD panel could have been used for something else, but what? The XA2 is the top of the line.

I just happened to shine a flashlight at my LCD panel on my XA2 the other night and saw HD-DVD-A and SACD.

Don't know why they are there. Someone else suggested that the LCD panel could have been used for something else, but what? The XA2 is the top of the line.

Now THAT is interesting....I have been looking to buy a PS3 and can't get a 40gb one because it won't play SACDs....if I could upgrade my HD-D1 AND get SACD playback, I would definitely go for it.

Someone else suggested that the LCD panel could have been used for something else, but what?It's possible that Toshiba buys that part from an OEM who also sells the same panel to other player manufacturers. Each player has different features, which decides what parts of the panel get used.

Sanjay

maybe it's just me, but somehow i don't think we are going to be getting sacd on a hddvd player anytime soon...

I just happened to shine a flashlight at my LCD panel on my XA2 the other night and saw HD-DVD-A and SACD.

Don't know why they are there. Someone else suggested that the LCD panel could have been used for something else, but what? The XA2 is the top of the line.

This is probably a case of covering all the bases, either on the part of Tosh and/or the panel maker. Somebody decides to add those capabilities to a new player, "Yeah, we got a display does that already," no one misses a step. Also, economies of scale.

Did you notice if it said DivX? If so, then they have Oppo covered as well. :D

The new HD DVD-Audio titles have 2 main advantages over SACD:

1. 7.1 matrix (instead of 5.1) capabilities that becoming a standard for HD home theater

2. Background Video track that can include images, video or artist photos to complement music experience in HD Video Resolution.

The new HD DVD-Audio titles have 2 main advantages over SACD:

1. 7.1 matrix (instead of 5.1) capabilities that becoming a standard for HD home theater

2. Background Video track that can include images, video or artist photos to complement music experience in HD Video Resolution.

Yes and one advantage for SACD - SACD Hybrids can play in a standard cd player.

I listen to both formats. :)

Kohi

Yes and one advantage for SACD - SACD Hybrids can play in a standard cd player.

I listen to both formats. :)

Kohi

...and in theory DSD more closely resembles analog. I read somewhere that you could actually feed the DSD stream directly to a speaker and you would be able to identify the music.

The OP is a pipedream. Never going to happen.

...The concept is to produce HD DVD titles with lossless Multichannel Audio created especially created for this kind of experience accompanied by high resolution Image content.
Can this be the way of how we can experience music in the future?

Not a chance. Just look at how if you even mention the need for lossless audio on HD DVD you will be clobbered by most crowing that DD+ is just as good or better.:confused: People are hooked on perceptual coding and don't want to know the difference.

Not a chance. Just look at how if you even mention the need for lossless audio on HD DVD you will be clobbered by most crowing that DD+ is just as good or better.:confused: People are hooked on perceptual coding and don't want to know the difference.

Dont answer for all people my friend:rolleyes:

Maybe audio resolution is not that important afterwards but creation of surround music experience by producers like Alexander Jero is making all the difference. That why I would recommend to give these titles a spin.

Dont answer for all people my friend:rolleyes:...

Last time I checked most did not mean all. Has the definition of most changed or do you interpret it another way?:confused:

Last time I checked most did not mean all. Has the definition of most changed or do you interpret it another way?:confused:

I just found that you doing very wide assamption. If we go this road, why HD DVD at all? but that being billed is "The look and sound of PERFECT" people want the best, only the price metter.

I see a huge trend in people buying HDTV sets. But even with all the HDTVs, many owners of HDTVs do not seem to buy HDM, though they have a high resolution video display. (The reasons for this are being discussed and speculated about to death in these forums.)

Regarding audio, i see a (imo obvious) trend towards "portable" media-files and players, which are the opposite of a high-resolution audio setup. Imo the trend is even moving away from the CD quality, the SD DVD of audio. So, where should this interest/demand in high resolution audio come from?

Imo the preferences for many are:

a, a big flatscreen

then nothing for a long time

b, picture quality (along the lines of: *if it doesn´t have this HD 3D feeling, the pq is bad.* or *Upconverted SD DVD is HD, isn´t it?*)

then nothing for a long time

c, audio quality (tv speakers & HTiB being the gear most HDTV owners are using for audio)

Yes, you can hear the difference in aq even on low-quality audio systems. Point is, many people just do not care about it to generate any kind of broad trend towards high res audio. Imo it will stay a product for the few enthusiasts, who are caring for it already.

(btw i hope this isn´t another attempt to promote the releases of "Alexander Jero", which happened in the AVS' surround music area a few month ago)

(btw i hope this isn´t another attempt to promote the releases of "Alexander Jero", which happened in the AVS' surround music area a few month ago)

Alexander Jero is the only
artist who is producing true HD DVD-Audio so fare. He was actually the one who come up with this idea and as you can see where many and many people here who are interested to disscass it. So the word about his work is assential.

(btw, reguarding the insident with me in surround music formats section is my personal downfall presenting this subject, tread is deleted and foggoten and have nothing to do with anything )

Not a chance. Just look at how if you even mention the need for lossless audio on HD DVD you will be clobbered by most crowing that DD+ is just as good or better.:confused: People are hooked on perceptual coding and don't want to know the difference.Come on. Who said DD+ is "better"? The audio master's from different performances are most likely to have the biggest quality differences -- that's the point people were trying to make.

With only needing a few still pictures and the disc focused on providing sound there is very good rationale for using a lossless format. If for no other reason than to eliminate the user's fear of audio compression artifacts.

I have Uncommon Mozart in hand. I am able to enjoy it now with the 5.1 core dts. Someday when I upgrade my AVR, I will be able to use lossless 7.1 dts-HD MA when playing it on my XA2. It will be interesting to hear just how subtle or not the difference is. :cool:

That is interesting that only couple months ago many people question the need for these titles because hardware to decode DTS-HD MA was not available. Now then just a little time left we have 2nd generation players and receivers become really affordable, for instance A35 cost now about $350 and Onkyo 605 is about $375 lust time I checked.

While I would certainly hope that HD multichannel releases become the standard format for music releases, I am far from optimistic that they will. Considering the cost involved and the rather small market, why would any of the mainstream producers think it more viable than SACD or DVD-A?

That said, I recently greatly enjoyed the Opus Arte HD-DVDs of "A Midsummer's Night Dream" and of "Die Zauberflöte." Beautiful images and great music and these were not even pushing the envelope for sound quality.

at least you wouldn't need to go buy an SACD player, everyone will already have the players to run it. it's better than SACD format anyway which sony focused more on making copy safe than anything else, not that bad.

i hope it happens, but as others say the whole MP3 thing and ipods and nobody has time to sit around and listen anymore may make it trickier.

Not a chance, in my opinion, for numerous reasons.

The future of the music industry is not at all a business of selling recordings on discs, no matter how much they really, really want it to stay that way. CDs will become a relative niche market, and downloads will be the bulk of the market, though they are not yet there. Maybe at some point, high bit rates or lossless compression will become selling points, but even those will be a small minority of the business, especially if companies try to charge extra for them.

The future of the recorded music business is here now, and it is on Amazon.


for now i use musicgiants, would rather it not had protection though and that more stuff was beyond hidef, but anyway it's lots better than realmusic downloads or 128bps itunes stuff.
i'm really glad this place opened up.

at least you wouldn't need to go buy an SACD player, everyone will already have the players to run it. it's better than SACD format anyway which sony focused more on making copy safe than anything else, not that bad.In what way is the sound any better than SACD? Of course, as there's so little music on either of the HD formats (yet), there's not much to compare.

In what way is the sound any better than SACD?

i would be curious about that as well...

sounds like "sony hating" rather than any actual fact...

for now i use musicgiants, would rather it not had protection though and that more stuff was beyond hidef, but anyway it's lots better than realmusic downloads or 128bps itunes stuff.
i'm really glad this place opened up.

It is great that High Def Surround Music Downloads are finally here, but as fare as right now I see that end users will have a problem to actually play them in the settings that become accustom. Besides a small number of computer gigs not that many people have a set-up to enjoy these downloads on a desktop. In a contrary HD DVD-Audio titles fitting perfectly to common Home Theater set-up and require no additional hardware besides HD DVD-Player.

To answer the OP's question...not no but HELL no....not gonna happen.

To answer the OP's question...not no but HELL no....not gonna happen.

Any real arguments?:rolleyes:

Any real arguments?:rolleyes:

I thought the truth was a real argument.:confused:

I thought the truth was a real argument.:confused:

That a good rephrase, but OP question is not a pool. I think Will be match more interesting to know real opinions and have an intelligent conversation when just votes.

That a good rephrase, but OP question is not a pool. I think Will be match more interesting to know real opinions and have an intelligent conversation when just votes.

You don't have enough time for me to answer the question in any way other than no.

At MOST it COULD become a TEENY TINY niche...but the general public is not remotely interested in hi-def DVD audio and the set-up/equipment required to listen to it at it's fullest potential...face it, the world today is all about XM Radio, Ipods, and listening to music via their computers perhaps...hi-end audio formats many folks were so hoping would concur the world are a thing of the past IMO.

We will never see another disc based "hi-end" audio format go mainstream in my or anyone elses lifetime...not gonna happen.

You don't have enough time for me to answer the question in any way other than no.

And for instance for me:it is YES, do you want exchange opinions over then that. It will be very interesting for everybody to know why you so sure.

At MOST it COULD become a TEENY TINY niche...but the general public is not remotely interested in hi-def DVD audio and the set-up/equipment required to listen to it at it's fullest potential...face it, the world today is all about XM Radio, Ipods, and listening to music via their computers perhaps...hi-end audio formats many folks were so hoping would concur the world are a thing of the past IMO.

We will never see another disc based "hi-end" audio format go mainstream in my or anyone elses lifetime...not gonna happen.
Dammit! There goes the PS3 forced SACD resurrection I was hoping for.:(

And for instance for me:it is YES, do you want exchange opinions over then that. It will be very interesting for everybody to know why you so sure.

Because less people care about HD audio than care abotu HD video, if that is possible.

Because less people care about HD audio than care abotu HD video, if that is possible.

If I can ask you a question.
Do you believe in success of HD DVD (that it will be in every household)?
Becouse if NO I am totally understand your position.

It is great that High Def Surround Music Downloads are finally here, but as fare as right now I see that end users will have a problem to actually play them in the settings that become accustom. Besides a small number of computer gigs not that many people have a set-up to enjoy these downloads on a desktop. In a contrary HD DVD-Audio titles fitting perfectly to common Home Theater set-up and require no additional hardware besides HD DVD-Player.For listening in other places, like the car, you are able to burn a stereo CD from a 5.1 lossless MusicGiants download. Good enough for me -- since I don't have 5.1 speakers in other places than my main upstairs (7.1) and downstairs (5.1) systems.

If I can ask you a question.
Do you believe in success of HD DVD (that it will be in every household)?
Becouse if NO I am totally understand your position.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with the format war.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with the format war.


Mine too,
Let me rephrase:
Do you believe in success of HD DVD or Blu-ray (that it will be in every household)?
Becouse if you do the rest is my case.

In what way is the sound any better than SACD? Of course, as there's so little music on either of the HD formats (yet), there's not much to compare.

i thought i read somewhere that the way SACD needs to be processed makes it trickier for the HW to do it perfectly and something else. it's been a while since i read it and perhaps other don't agree with the article i read.

If I can ask you a question.
Do you believe in success of HD DVD (that it will be in every household)?
Becouse if NO I am totally understand your position.

I don't understand what you're trying to suggest with this question/comment. Are you trying to imply that if HD DVD ends up in every household, then HD DVD-AUDIO will succeed? How in the world did you come to this conclusion? There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor. Why would HD DVD-Audio be any different?

I don't understand what you're trying to suggest with this question/comment. Are you trying to imply that if HD DVD ends up in every household, then HD DVD-AUDIO will succeed? How in the world did you come to this conclusion? There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor. Why would HD DVD-Audio be any different?

the problem with your theory is that those millions of dvd players don't play dvd-a...

i thought i read somewhere that the way SACD needs to be processed makes it trickier for the HW to do it perfectly and something else. it's been a while since i read it and perhaps other don't agree with the article i read.Actually, SACD is easier and makes fewer hardware demands for decoding than any of the lossless HD formats.

Re the OP:

NO.

I'm a long time audiophile myself but frankly at this point I'm sick of physical media. I have many hundreds of CDs and it is a royal pain storing them, going through them to get what I want etc. My ipod has spoiled me in that regard and I intend to get something like a SONOS wireless streaming system, burning all my CDs onto an hard drive (uncompressed...of course). And to me the sooner I can kick the physical media out the door the better - the new digital storage systems are just way better ways to interface with my music. I actually listen to more of it.

I do have LPs and a turntable as well. In that case the physical media, while cumbersome, still has a certain amount of old-school charm, which I find CDs lack.

So I think if even old school audiophiles like me are getting sick of physical media - let alone the rest of the world - another physical disc-based audio system isn't going to find a lot of support.

I don't understand what you're trying to suggest with this question/comment. Are you trying to imply that if HD DVD ends up in every household, then HD DVD-AUDIO will succeed? How in the world did you come to this conclusion? There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor. Why would HD DVD-Audio be any different?

Like people are already mentioning here Lossless 7.1 Audio is essential standard feature of HD DVD spec that was not available on standard DVD. From that point I can see that HD DVD can become the universal format for both Video and Music.;)

Seems like for most every one DVD-Audio would be enough. From what I've heard a good DVD-A recording can come rpetty close to vinyl for transparency at least for 2 channels.

I'm not really interested in 5 channel music.

Like people are already mentioning here Lossless 7.1 Audio is essential standard feature of HD DVD spec that was not available on standard DVD. From that point I can see that HD DVD can become the universal format for both Video and Music.;)
I agree - either HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is probably the future for high end music listeners. Lesser quality MP3s will rule on the low end at the expense of CDs.

DVD-A/SACD were limited to specialty players while HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is available on a much wider scale. Plus they should hold much more high quality music and video with the larger disc sizes.

Actually, SACD is easier and makes fewer hardware demands for decoding than any of the lossless HD formats.

well PCM is even easier on hidef discs, but the compressed lossless are not. but the article wasn't referring to amount of processor strain. in soem ways all the various digitla filters needed for DVD-A might require more, but if there they are done properly for sure. something about issues with it's DSD format (apparently now some players first convert it to PCM now to avoid issues). and something baout it havcing less dynamic reserve than some of the other formats (whether you could hear the difference i don't know). something about ti could send rather much ultrasonic to tweeters if not handled well. soemthing aboitu how DSD was primarily chosen for copy protection reasons. i reallty don't remember the details too well unfortuneately.

anyway this was based on a foggy recollection of some stuff read like two years ago, so it's probably not worth much unless i went back and tracked all the stuff down. i don't recall enough to have an intelligent discussion to be honest.

the problem with your theory is that those millions of dvd players don't play dvd-a...

If the majority of players don't play DVD-Audio it's because nobody wanted/needed it. How many players have X/Y scaling? Not many, for the same reason. There are millions of DVD players on this planet. The consumers that have the DVD-Audio feature haven't purchased enough DVD-Audio discs to make it a factor. The consuers who own players that aren't DVD-Audio compatible aren't complaining that they lack this feature, simply because they don't care.

Like people are already mentioning here Lossless 7.1 Audio is essential standard feature of HD DVD spec that was not available on standard DVD. From that point I can see that HD DVD can become the universal format for both Video and Music.;)

Pop music will continue to drive the music industry for some time, and I don't see how pop music would benefit from a 7.1 mix, or if fans of pop would care. With the huge decline on CD sales for $7-$10 cd's, I don't expect people to run out and buy HD-Audio as I assume it'll cost more then a standard CD. High end audiophiles may buy up classical music and some jazz, but I don't see this medium doing anything in terms of "the future of the music industry".

Pop music will continue to drive the music industry for some time, and I don't see how pop music would benefit from a 7.1 mix, or if fans of pop would care. With the huge decline on CD sales for $7-$10 cd's, I don't expect people to run out and buy HD-Audio as I assume it'll cost more then a standard CD. High end audiophiles may buy up classical music and some jazz, but I don't see this medium doiung anything in terms of "the future of the music industry".

This is where you wrong, all music producers are starving to get where hands on 7.1 mixes. Ask anybody. You should really check out "Spatial Dynamics" and "The Way to Paradise" to find out that can be done in this format. Prices will go down with time no question about that as well. So if new HD formats will succeed where no downside is for HD DVD-Audio.:)

Market penetration for VIDEO surround sound is maybe 10% of US households, and that's for watching TV/movies, an activity that people sit still for.

And most of those systems are crap $200 HTIB's that can't resolve the difference between DD5.1 and DTS, let alone hi-rez or HD audio.

High fidelity music of any kind is already a niche market. Hi-rez is a niche within a niche.

This is bulls**t: "All music producers are starving to get where hands on 7.1 mixes. Ask anybody."

In the part of the music industry where I live, music producers are just plain starving. Nobody cares about surround because it doesn't sell records, and not being able to sell records is a problem of crisis proportions. What's driving product is figuring out how to make money from downloads. Nobody even talks about surround, or hi-rez, or HD. Most people in music are poor, and don't buy it themselves.

Creating and marketing surround versions of mainstream music costs more money than most production companies are willing to spend, even the ones that are underwritten by major labels.

Sure, there are a few acts and a few labels that cater to the niche, but the audience demographics for the Steely Dans and Porcupine Trees are well-heeled Boomers who sit and listen because they're too tired to get up. They are not going to create million-sellers.

And the picture is getting dimmer, not brighter. As major labels become less of a factor and small/independent labels become the new mainstream, expensive experiments become even less likely.

We will never, ever see routine day-and-date releases of mainstream HD/surround versions of mainstream music.

all music producers are starving to get where hands on 7.1 mixes. Ask anybody.

:confused: We can respectfully disagree on many things, but this could be the most absurb statement I've ever read on AVSforum.

:confused: We can respectfully disagree on many things, but this could be the most absurb statement I've ever read on AVSforum.

Sorry, you fox maybe not following this development but mainstream top music producers like Elliot Scheiner, Phil Ramone, Ed Cherney are actually initiated surround music movement at the first place.

It is great to hear discussion about HD-DVD Audio!

Mr. Jero and I were recently invited to attend CES in January. We will be showcasing Alex's work and answering questions along with the HD-DVD Promotions Group. They are very excited to have an artist who is versed in the format, who has titles released in DTS-HD MA, and the experience to demonstrate the new format to artist and producers who are interested.

I am looking forward to CES and to showing talented musicians and artists what is NOW possible. Lack of knowledge is the only reason that more artists are not mastering in 7.1 DTS-HD MA.

Thank you AVS!

Jason Gilbert
HD Post Consulting
Http://www.HDPostConsulting.com

If the majority of players don't play DVD-Audio it's because nobody wanted/needed it. How many players have X/Y scaling? Not many, for the same reason. There are millions of DVD players on this planet. The consumers that have the DVD-Audio feature haven't purchased enough DVD-Audio discs to make it a factor. The consuers who own players that aren't DVD-Audio compatible aren't complaining that they lack this feature, simply because they don't care.

all of this may be true... but it doesn't change the fallacy of your original statement...

well PCM is even easier on hidef discs, but the compressed lossless are not. but the article wasn't referring to amount of processor strain. in soem ways all the various digitla filters needed for DVD-A might require more, but if there they are done properly for sure. something about issues with it's DSD format (apparently now some players first convert it to PCM now to avoid issues). and something baout it havcing less dynamic reserve than some of the other formats (whether you could hear the difference i don't know). something about ti could send rather much ultrasonic to tweeters if not handled well. soemthing aboitu how DSD was primarily chosen for copy protection reasons. i reallty don't remember the details too well unfortuneately.

anyway this was based on a foggy recollection of some stuff read like two years ago, so it's probably not worth much unless i went back and tracked all the stuff down. i don't recall enough to have an intelligent discussion to be honest.All of those are foggy representations of some real issues which have been debated a lot. However, the issue was whether one form of encoding was easier to handle than others. For simple play back DSD is much easier than any format including PCM as currently used. Dynamic range is not an issue nor is tweeter damage (although there were fears initially). Now, if you want to consider issues like post-processing, then DSD has to be converted to PCM but that is because there is a lot of PCM-based hardware processing and little or none for DSD. Considering the trends, it is unlikely that there ever will be.

all of this may be true... but it doesn't change the fallacy of your original statement...

My original statement was;

"There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor."

If you can find evidence that suggests what I said was wrong, feel free. Someone mentioned the problem with this statement was that not all DVD players play DVD-Audio. That doesn't make my initial statement wrong. The fact is there are millions of DVD players, and DVD-Audio isn't a factor. If DVD-Audio was something people wanted, more companies would have included it in their players. They didn't. They managed to sell millions of players with or without this function, which suggests to me this feature isn't something important to the consumer.

Sorry, you fox maybe not following this development but mainstream top music producers like Elliot Scheiner, Phil Ramone, Ed Cherney are actually initiated surround music movement at the first place.

You've named 3. That's a far cry from "all". I respect all of these producers VERY MUCH, and all have done a lot for the industry. That being said, they are not driving or producing top 10 songs in today's market. Again, I respect HD-DVD Audio can be a niche market, but I really don't see it being the future of music. It's also important to recognize that regardless of what a 'producer' wants, unless he owns the masters he has no say in what is released in what format. The label does. He can mix his ass off, but if Universal or Interscope own the masters, it's up to them if HD-DVD Audio is released or not.

My original statement was;

"There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor."

If you can find evidence that suggests what I said was wrong, feel free. Someone mentioned the problem with this statement was that not all DVD players play DVD-Audio. That doesn't make my initial statement wrong. The fact is there are millions of DVD players, and DVD-Audio isn't a factor. If DVD-Audio was something people wanted, more companies would have included it in their players. They didn't. They managed to sell millions of players with or without this function, which suggests to me this feature isn't something important to the consumer.

To expand on that, for a few years now, anybody who IS interested in DVD-A or SACD can get a compatible DVD player (that also plays their movies, natch) for under $100. And almost no one cares... Many cars come with DVD-A compatible systems now (so people don't even HAVE to choose to have the capability), and the PS3 plays SACDs (except the 40GB). And STILL almost no one cares...

If people aren't concerned enough about high-res audio to buy an $80 DVD player when their existing player breaks (or simply as an upgrade), why exactly would they buy into an even more-expsensive, less-supported format to get it? How many people already have DVD-A/SACD capable equipment and have absolutely no desire to buy the discs? <raises hand> Despite the fact that they're based off a worldwide standard. And yet somehow an ultra-niche product based on a niche products going to be the great white hope?

My original statement was;

"There are millions of DVD players in households around the world an DVD-Audio isn't a factor."

If you can find evidence that suggests what I said was wrong, feel free. Someone mentioned the problem with this statement was that not all DVD players play DVD-Audio. That doesn't make my initial statement wrong. The fact is there are millions of DVD players, and DVD-Audio isn't a factor. If DVD-Audio was something people wanted, more companies would have included it in their players. They didn't. They managed to sell millions of players with or without this function, which suggests to me this feature isn't something important to the consumer.

yes. those millions of DVD players do not play dvd-a. whereas hddvd players would indeed play hddvd disks.

please note that i don't think (and stated it earlier in this thread), that hddvd audio is a "winner". would there be a niche market for it? yes. will it revolutionize the music industry? no. but there's many reasons for that.

but your theory of "there are millions of dvd players out there and dvd-a hasn't taken hold, hence hd-dvd audio will not", taken at face value, holds no water.

If I could have one wish in audio/video entertainment, it would be for mass acceptance of some sort of hi rez audio as a standard where we see most albums available for purchase.

However, As much as I desire this and attempt to show off my home system and talk people's ears off about hi rez audio, the truth is that 99.9% of people truly don't care.

I've accepted the fact that hi rez audio WILL NEVER BE common in music. I at least hope that artists and producers who do care about it push to release stuff even if no one is actually making money on it. If I was a musical artist and wasn't living in a van down by the river, I would be pushing to put my stuff out in a format for audiophiles to enjoy.

I will continue to preach to people about hi rez audio and show off top notch tracks at my house whenever I can in hopes of converting someone but in the end I know it is a futile effort.

How many DVD-Audio and SACD discs have been sold to date?

They were intro'd in 2000 so there should be a few, but I wouldn't be completely surprised if more HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs have already been sold since 2006 than DVD-Audio and SACD since 2000.

And like I said before, even as a DVD-Audio hardware and software owner, I consider it a dead format. Actually, my DVD-Audio player isn't even hooked up anymore, so I have no way of playing my DVD-Audio discs at the moment. :o And the distressing part for some of the golden ears... I could easily hook it up because I still have the hardware... in the closet... but I simply don't care about DVD-Audio anymore so I won't bother. :p

Luckily I didn't buy very many DVD-A discs.

To expand on that, for a few years now, anybody who IS interested in DVD-A or SACD can get a compatible DVD player (that also plays their movies, natch) for under $100. And almost no one cares... Many cars come with DVD-A compatible systems now (so people don't even HAVE to choose to have the capability), and the PS3 plays SACDs (except the 40GB). And STILL almost no one cares...

If people aren't concerned enough about high-res audio to buy an $80 DVD player when their existing player breaks (or simply as an upgrade), why exactly would they buy into an even more-expsensive, less-supported format to get it? How many people already have DVD-A/SACD capable equipment and have absolutely no desire to buy the discs? <raises hand> Despite the fact that they're based off a worldwide standard. And yet somehow an ultra-niche product based on a niche products going to be the great white hope?

Like I mention before HD DVD-Audio is a HD DVD product and based on the same hardware and software profile as HD DVD (not SACD or DVD-A) and will deliver High Rez Surround Audio experience to lager HDTV market :)and not nitch Audiophile market like DVD-A and SACD.

Answering reply about recording industry situation I can only mention that hole recording industry are hoping to finally settle to the music format that featuring copy protection and high quality audio so with success of HD DVD technology major record companies will be first at hand.

Any news about MuNa HD DVD ?

Next generation HD DVD based music distribution and marketing platform launched

The following key features are featured on this product:

The disc will start automatically, tracks are 'skipable', navigation behavior is the same as Audio CD

Without any kind of TV the disc navigation will be done via remote control of the HD DVD player

The new codecs allow a high quality experience at the same level or clearly above DVDAudio/SACD, formats might be e.g.
Stereo 24 bit / 96 kHz or 192 kHz
Surround 5.1/7.1 24 bit / 96 kHz

Additionally to 'TV-less' navigation advanced customer experience (especially when SC is used) can be picture diaporama, Cover Art, information on Artists, Music, Bio, Lyrics

Additional audio tracks for advanced content based navigation. Content based navigation means that a user will have the opportunity to listen to unknown artists/songs in similar style to the one he knows (see pandora.com).

The main benefits of these new MuNa HD DVD products:

Very low premastering costs

Very low replication costs, for 3X (HD DVD data on DVD disc) same costs as current DVD costs

For 3X based products moderate development costs for future designs due to low glasmaster costs (technology is new, for new design we still need to anticipate some problems and intensive testing procedures are necessary)

For 3X based products the replication infrastructure is the same as for DVD, so clients can work with their current replication service partners

Within the critical DRM discussion, AACS might be sacrificed for marketing reasons. This also reduces the costs. However, as of today we would need AACS for anyonline features but prices and availability still need to be determined.

MuNa products will work technically with EVERY HD DVD player and within different marketing scenarios. Massmarket genres like Rock/Pop will work with any future lowcost noname player expected to arrive October 2007 for as low as US$ 199,- to US$ 299,-.

Due to the nature of DTS-HD, all tracks are always 100% downward compatible, MuNa products will play on ANY HD DVD capable player independent from internal decoding, downmixing or interface limitations.

Any PC with a DVD drive can playback MuNa products if a current HD DVD enabled version of very popular DVD Player software like PowerDVD, WinDVD, Nero or similar is installed and the product is 3X based and does not use AACS. This got tremendous marketing potential, e.g. as free magazine supplement.

For the vast majority of products DVD-9 is recommended for optimized cost-efficiency. Another advantage of DVD-9 is that when its used without AACS it will play in ordinary DVD drives as long as HD DVD player software is used.


http://www.side-line.com/side-line_blog_comments.php?id=22997_0_45_0_C

Like I mention before HD DVD-Audio is a HD DVD product and based on the same hardware and software profile as HD DVD (not SACD or DVD-A) and will deliver High Rez Surround Audio experience to lager HDTV market :)and not nitch Audiophile market like DVD-A and SACD.
There are a LOT more people with DVD-A and/or SACD-compatible equipment than there will be with an HD DVD player anytime soon. And almost none of them care.

As of last year, there were 13 million SACD players in US homes, and many more DVD-Audio players. So probably somewhere between 30 and 50 million. Somewhere between one-third and one-half of all households in the country. More households have DVD-A or SACD players than have an HDTV. And no one cares about either format.

There are less than half a million standalone HD DVD players out there. Less than one half of one percent of US households have one. I know maybe a half-dozen people at MOST who DON'T have a device that can play DVD-A or SACD. Vs. 4 people (myself included) who have either HD DVD or Blu-Ray. And yet I've never in my entire life met a single person who owns a SACD or DVD-A disc. I have players that support both formats, and a midrange (being on AVS is humbling. :)) surround setup capable of doing the recordings justice, and *I* don't have a single disc. Yet I have over 100 HD DVDs/Blu-Rays You honestly think CASUAL consumers--most of whom don't have more than two speakers or even an AV Reciever--are going to jump into a new music format that they can only listen to at home?

HD DVD-Audio is a pipe dream. It is exceedingly unlikely that HD DVD players will achieve the same installed base in the next 5 years as SACD and DVD-A have right now. And just like now, the OVERWHELMING majority of people who DO have them won't give a rat's ass about high-res music. Hell, the vast majority will connect their player directly to the TV, just like they do now with their DVD player, and would have no possible way to take advantage of an audio-only format.

How many DVD-Audio and SACD discs have been sold to date?

They were intro'd in 2000 so there should be a few, but I wouldn't be completely surprised if more HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs have already been sold since 2006 than DVD-Audio and SACD since 2000.


hmmm... interesting question...

i'd *guess* that there's been more sacd disks sold, becuase there's a (relatively speaking) thriving market for classical music on sacd... i'll grant you that the classical market isn't "large", but it is passionate, and tends to have a reasonable amount of disposable income to indulge themselves with...

How many DVD-Audio and SACD discs have been sold to date?

They were intro'd in 2000 so there should be a few, but I wouldn't be completely surprised if more HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs have already been sold since 2006 than DVD-Audio and SACD since 2000.

And like I said before, even as a DVD-Audio hardware and software owner, I consider it a dead format. Actually, my DVD-Audio player isn't even hooked up anymore, so I have no way of playing my DVD-Audio discs at the moment. :o And the distressing part for some of the golden ears... I could easily hook it up because I still have the hardware... in the closet... but I simply don't care about DVD-Audio anymore so I won't bother. :p

Luckily I didn't buy very many DVD-A discs.

It seems that the masses like "packages", things that come in the same box and don't have to look around for the other half.
There is htib, but as we all know, its total junk, much less hi-rez audio.

Had DVD-A been part of DVD-V, from the start, and there were "packages" that had a DVD player and at least middle of the road quality speakers in the same box, DVD-A may have become more than a nich. Of coarse those "packages" would have been at a higher cost.

The facts are that most people who have bought a DVD player and HDTV have NEVER been exposed to good quality audio, and one can't miss what one never had.

For myself, I've been listening to quality audio for decades. ie a stereo speaker system, that in late 1970's dollars, was $2K.
Most people today don't want to spend that much for a 5~7 speaker system, why? Because they have no clue as to what they're missing.

As I've told many people, if one only buys a big screen, they only have a big screen. For true HT one needs to have the sound system to match. And the masses haven't got a clue.

Most people today don't want to spend that much for a 5~7 speaker system, why? Because they have no clue as to what they're missing.

As I've told many people, if one only buys a big screen, they only have a big screen. For true HT one needs to have the sound system to match. And the masses haven't got a clue.

That why I highly recommend to check out "Music Experience in 3-Dimensional Sound Reality" (http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Surround_Records) HD DVD-audio titles that are great showcase capabilities of 7.1 High Definition Sound. This is the real artwork of Surround Music.

More households have DVD-A or SACD players than have an HDTV.


Thirst of all I don’t think that this is correct and second and more important interest to HD DVD is match and match stronger then interest to stand along surround formats. I don’t see why people would not buy Music Titles on HD DVD-Audio as well as HD DVD-Video if whey will have playback devices that play both.

At this point HDM looks like it's going to be a niche product for some time to come...I can see a few early aopters types perhaps wanting to hear something in HD DVD audio, but it will be very very rare if it EVER even gets off the ground at all.

As for the general public...if they EVER decide to own HDM, they won't give a flyin flip about some "fancy" surround audio mix even if they DO have a machine that plays it...like someone posted earlier, it's a pipe dream...get over it folks...it's never..I repeat NEVER going to catch on....just like all the other attempts at high end audio formats that failed to gain interest from the general public.

97.9999% of the people in this world just don't care about high end surround audio...period.

Thirst of all I don’t think that this is correct and second and more important interest to HD DVD is match and match stronger then interest to stand along surround formats. I don’t see why people would not buy Music Titles on HD DVD-Audio as well as HD DVD-Video if whey will have playback devices that play both.

First, there are millions of DVD players that come with either SACD or DVD-A capability, and have for years. It's a feature that's so common that most of the players sold with it are sold without the buyer knowing or caring that it's there.

Second, the interest in HD media is very small, in general. There are only a couple of million players of both formats in the field. That's a tiny number.

Third, people are refusing to buy music in ANY physical format in ever-increasing numbers. CD sales are declining every year.

Music on disc -- any kind of disc -- is not the future of anything, because it's not portable. And by portable, I don't just mean downloadable; I mean easily distributable among the typical consumer's many different playback devices.

Even I, someone who does sit down and listen to hi-rez surround music for pleasure, want to be able to play the titles I own on my main system, my computers, my iPod, my car stereo (which plays music from a thumb drive). How long is it going to be before people can rip HD-DVDs in iTunes? How about never? They won't have HD-DVD drives in their computers, and Apple will never allow ripping of DRM-protected content. But that's what it will take, at minimum, to get people to buy any kind of disc at all.

I don’t see that this situation is that complicated,

For me that looks very simple.
If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player.
So why don’t HD DVD become a universal platform for physical media delivery of music in the future as well. Surround Audio just a natural progression of the Sound and Music Technology and SACD and DVD-A was only the first step.

I don’t see that this situation is that complicated,

For me that looks very simple.
If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player...

That is not a very safe assumption with BD ahead in disc sales and J6P totally indifferent and/or satisfied with DVD. Plus he couldn't care less about high quality audio, "just pass the MP3's and another beer".

I don’t see that this situation is that complicated,

For me that looks very simple.
If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player.
So why don’t HD DVD become a universal platform for physical media delivery of music in the future as well. Surround Audio just a natural progression of the Sound and Music Technology and SACD and DVD-A was only the first step.
Except the physical medium for delivery of music is not DVD. It is CD.

Except the physical medium for delivery of music is not DVD. It is CD.

CD quality stereo sound could not compete anymore with downloads, However new HD DVD-Audio Surround Music titles can providing higher quality music experience (of course like it been sad "If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player." )

I don’t see that this situation is that complicated,

For me that looks very simple.
If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player.
So why don’t HD DVD become a universal platform for physical media delivery of music in the future as well. Surround Audio just a natural progression of the Sound and Music Technology and SACD and DVD-A was only the first step.

DVD is not the universal medium for music delivery. Not even a little bit. Your assumptions are so unrealistic that it's no surprise you're making nonsensical inferences from them.

The CD used to be the the closest thing to such a medium. Now, increasingly, downloads are.

Natural progression? We are not progressing towards more complex, hardware-intensive, static installations for music listening. Just the opposite.

CD quality stereo sound could not compete anymore with downloads, However new HD DVD-Audio Surround Music titles can providing higher quality music experience (of course like it been sad "If we assume that HD-DVD will replace eventually standard DVD player." )

All of these assumptions are false. Just look around you.

Until there is a way to make hi-rez surround sound portable (both in terms of being able to convert and transfer the recordings at will, and in terms of being able to listen to it anywhere), it will remain a niche market.

All of these assumptions are false. Just look around you.

Until there is a way to make hi-rez surround sound portable (both in terms of being able to convert and transfer the recordings at will, and in terms of being able to listen to it anywhere), it will remain a niche market.

I don’t exclude this possibility about future portable surround devices but at the same time I don’t think that physical media will no longer exist, that like people was saying 50 years ago that TV is going to kill cinema.

I don’t exclude this possibility about future portable surround devices but at the same time I don’t think that physical media will no longer exist, that like people was saying 50 years ago that TV is going to kill cinema.

The premise here is not whether something will continue to exist or not.

The question posed is about "the future of the music industry." Physical media are already losing their dominance of the industry. Even those physical media that remain -- CDs, mostly, still -- do so because they are so easily rippable, and the process of ripping and managing CD content is made nearly transparent by software that supports it (eg, iTunes), by the widespread acceptance of the practice by the rights owners, any by the ubiquity of CD drives in computers.

None of those conditions is EVER likely to apply to HD-DVD.

And anyway, there is absolutely no precedent in mass-media history for the adoption of a high-capacity format for distribution of content that doesn't need high capacity. Media are always just big enough to hold what's being sold. Just try to convince the mass market to buy a disc that's 2/3 empty!

Except the physical medium for delivery of music is not DVD. It is CD.

More like MP3 downloading...cd is dying quickly..hi-def audio won't save it.

The premise here is not whether something will continue to exist or not.

The question posed is about "the future of the music industry." Physical media are already losing their dominance of the industry. Even those physical media that remain -- CDs, mostly, still -- do so because they are so easily rippable, and the process of ripping and managing CD content is made nearly transparent by software that supports it (eg, iTunes), by the widespread acceptance of the practice by the rights owners, any by the ubiquity of CD drives in computers.

None of those conditions is EVER likely to apply to HD-DVD.

And anyway, there is absolutely no precedent in mass-media history for the adoption of a high-capacity format for distribution of content that doesn't need high capacity. Media are always just big enough to hold what's being sold. Just try to convince the mass market to buy a disc that's 2/3 empty!

Mark my words,
As soon as more HD DVD players will be on the market to support initial quantity of discs sold, record companies wiil be first at hand to explore this opportunity.;)

Mark my words,
As soon as anoght HD DVD players will be on the market...

Your words are so marked, but what is a anoght HD DVD player?:confused: Is this another new format added to the war? :D

Mark my words,
As soon as anoght HD DVD players will be on the market to support initial quantity of discs sold, record companies wiil be first at hand to explore this opportunity.;)

Sure. Just like what happened with all those DVD players that could also play DVD-A and/or SACD discs. Really got some of the ol' critical mass there, didn't we?

There will be experiments to see if there's a market, and how big it is. There might be some money spent on a bit of promotion for the roll-out of an initial slate of a couple-dozen titles. And all this will do is to establish the size of the niche, because there is no mass market for this, never has been, never will be.

There has *always" been product for audiophiles, going all the way back to virgin-vinyl, limited-edition hand-stamped LPs, direct-to-disc recordings, quadraphonic open-reel tape, dbx-enconded audiocassettes. You can always find a few thousand people willing to pay top dollar for the best quality.

And that's as far as it will ever go, because -- mark my words -- the mass market does not care about audio quality. More to the point, they will not pay for it.

I have yet to read a single argument (one based on something other than fantasy) in this thread to support the proposition that there's anything different abnout HD-DVD as a music-only medium that would make it succeed where dozens of other formats have failed.

Sure. Just like what happened with all those DVD players that could also play DVD-A and/or SACD discs. Really got some of the ol' critical mass there, didn't we?

There will be experiments to see if there's a market, and how big it is. There might be some money spent on a bit of promotion for the roll-out of an initial slate of a couple-dozen titles. And all this will do is to establish the size of the niche, because there is no mass market for this, never has been, never will be.

There has *always" been product for audiophiles, going all the way back to virgin-vinyl, limited-edition hand-stamped LPs, direct-to-disc recordings, quadraphonic open-reel tape, dbx-enconded audiocassettes. You can always find a few thousand people willing to pay top dollar for the best quality.

And that's as far as it will ever go, because -- mark my words -- the mass market does not care about audio quality. More to the point, they will not pay for it.

I have yet to read a single argument (one based on something other than fantasy) in this thread to support the proposition that there's anything different abnout HD-DVD as a music-only medium that would make it succeed where dozens of other formats have failed.

I fill like I need to repeat that one more time HD DVD-Audio should not be considered as an Audiophile Product, it is HD DVD product that should be on a shelf with HD DVD Video Titles (if we talking product cathegories)
I think that evolution of surround technonogy and high resolution audio will finally find the way to mass market and HD DVD specs with Lossless 7.1 Audio is a real product to deliver that.


I did not say it going to happened a 100%, but there are possibilities and Music Industry should definatly explore this opportunity.

People do care. It just was not available at the lager scale.

Mass retails will NEVER put audio-only content on the same shelves as video content. PERIOD. It will ALWAYS be in the music section, because that's where it belongs. And it will languish there, as DVD-A and SACD have done.

There is NOTHING that HD DVD-Audio can offer to the potential audience of 500k HD DVD owners that DVD-Audio cannot offer to the audience of 15 million+ DVD-Audio player owners. DVD-Audio currently offers multichannel lossless surround sound. And current DVD-Audio owners have proven, time and again, that they don't give a ****. You can believe that people care all you want, but history disagrees with you.

Music MUST be portable--no ifs ands or buts about it. NO ONE will buy an album that they can only listen to at home. It must be playable in their car, on their alarm clock, in their computer and on their iPod. If it cannot, sales of any one recording will never hit 5 digits. It's unlikely that one will hit 4 digits.

Mass retails will NEVER put audio-only content on the same shelves as video content. PERIOD. It will ALWAYS be in the music section, because that's where it belongs. And it will languish there, as DVD-A and SACD have done.

There is NOTHING that HD DVD-Audio can offer to the potential audience of 500k HD DVD owners that DVD-Audio cannot offer to the audience of 15 million+ DVD-Audio player owners. DVD-Audio currently offers multichannel lossless surround sound. And current DVD-Audio owners have proven, time and again, that they don't give a ****. You can believe that people care all you want, but history disagrees with you.

Music MUST be portable--no ifs ands or buts about it. NO ONE will buy an album that they can only listen to at home. It must be playable in their car, on their alarm clock, in their computer and on their iPod. If it cannot, sales of any one recording will never hit 5 digits. It's unlikely that one will hit 4 digits.

There is no place for HD DVD Audio but with the rest of HD DVD titles it has same disc format, same Audio/Video spec and packaging.
DVD-Audio was originally based on DVD-Audio playback devices that are have Different specs then regular DVD and was design as an Audiophile product at the first place.
Everything is serving its purpose, there is a need for stand along audio devises as well as portable, but if I am not mistaking there is the wireless and internet distribution development now for HD DVD, maybe smb can get more info here on that.

How many DVD-Audio and SACD discs have been sold to date?

They were intro'd in 2000 so there should be a few, but I wouldn't be completely surprised if more HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs have already been sold since 2006 than DVD-Audio and SACD since 2000.

And like I said before, even as a DVD-Audio hardware and software owner, I consider it a dead format. Actually, my DVD-Audio player isn't even hooked up anymore, so I have no way of playing my DVD-Audio discs at the moment. :o And the distressing part for some of the golden ears... I could easily hook it up because I still have the hardware... in the closet... but I simply don't care about DVD-Audio anymore so I won't bother. :p

Luckily I didn't buy very many DVD-A discs.

i have to say i haven't purchased any. but i also haevb to say that they never released a whole lot on DVD-audio, wasn't ever much of a selection to intrigue me and SACD, originally at least, required a very expensive component and could not be handled on a PC due to copy protection restrictions so i never bothered with that either. i may have gotten some of that if they hadn't been so paranoid about copy protection.

i have downloaded some HD music, but again, not all that much selection there either. if i see the option, i go for it though.

if i see something i like on hd dvd or bluray i would definitely get it.

i have to say i haven't purchased any. but i also haevb to say that they never released a whole lot on DVD-audio, wasn't ever much of a selection to intrigue me and SACD, originally at least, required a very expensive component and could not be handled on a PC due to copy protection restrictions so i never bothered with that either. i may have gotten some of that if they hadn't been so paranoid about copy protection.

i have downloaded some HD music, but again, not all that much selection there either. if i see the option, i go for it though.

if i see something i like on hd dvd or bluray i would definitely get it.Why? You can't copy that either. :cool:

At the very least, unlike DVD-Audio/SACD, HD-DVD and Blu Ray have built-in support for uncompressed 7.1 96KHz/24-bit sound so publishers that wish to, can make high-res stuff that doesn't require some proprietary, non-standard format. I do have a decent 7.1 system and I'd buy if they'd produce.

Why? You can't copy that either. :cool:

haha, well actually you can (for hd dvd and non-BD+ bluray), although not directyl easily in a track by track sort of way, but that's not what i meant at all by that. i like to drive all my music/video from my PC and when SACD came out i spent all my money on speakers and othter stuff and had neither the money (nor wish) to buy extra external hardware just to be able to play it. sony wouldn't allow anyone to do SACD decoding and playback on PC's. DVD-audio and, of course, HD DVD/bluray audio formats are allowed to be played back on PC's.

At the very least, unlike DVD-Audio/SACD, HD-DVD and Blu Ray have built-in support for uncompressed 7.1 96KHz/24-bit sound so publishers that wish to, can make high-res stuff that doesn't require some proprietary, non-standard format. I do have a decent 7.1 system and I'd buy if they'd produce.I'd buy them, too, if there was something to listen to. OTOH, they are ALL pretty standard formats but all require specialized players/decoders.

My opinion: HD DVD Audio will be COMPLETELY irrelevant. Nobody cares. Err... Scratch that. Almost nobody cares.

And I say this as someone who owns DVD Audio hardware and software.

There were lots of problems with DVD-A and SACD. Limited catalog. I hardly ever saw new releases available. Incompatible hardware. You want to play SACD/DVD-A you need to buy specific players, not just any CD/DVD player will do it. With BD/HDDVD we have video driving people to buy the hardware. once the hardware is prevalent there becomes a market for high resolution audio, even if it is niche. Production has to be less than in the old direct disk vinyl days. Of course we still are dealing with 2 incompatible formats :)

There were lots of problems with DVD-A and SACD. Limited catalog. I hardly ever saw new releases available. Incompatible hardware. You want to play SACD/DVD-A you need to buy specific players, not just any CD/DVD player will do it. With BD/HDDVD we have video driving people to buy the hardware. once the hardware is prevalent there becomes a market for high resolution audio, even if it is niche. Production has to be less than in the old direct disk vinyl days. Of course we still are dealing with 2 incompatible formats :)

There will still be hardware issues with HD audio. People with players that lack analog multichannel outputs will need receivers that can decode the new formats. Otherwise, they'll get some sort of DD or DTS downmix -- which is what they get now with DVD-A.

There were far, far more DVD-A- or SACD-capable players sold than there ever were people buying the media. These capabilities did not drive sales of either hardware OR software. Millions of people can play the discs, and either don't know or don't care or probably both.

But I agree that there will be a niche market, eventually, just as there is now and always has been. Well-heeled audiophiles will always pay a premium to play music that shows off their systems (even if it's not always music they even particularly like!).

I bought open-reel quad tapes. I bought quad vinyl, and direct-to-disc vinyl. I bought dbx cassettes. I bought dts CDs and SACDs and DVD-A's. And I will buy this new stuff, too.

Me, and the same eleven other people who bought all those other obsolete-the-day-they-were-introduced formats. Because in all these decades, we've never convinced anybody else to care about them.

This entire discussion is the reason I'm still sitting on the sidelines for HD DVD/BR.
I'm taking the same approach I did with DVD-A/SACD, and that is waiting for a GOOD multi-format player, that has ALL the goods, at a good price. That way I don't get stuck with an obselete player if one format fails.

This entire discussion is the reason I'm still sitting on the sidelines for HD DVD/BR.
I'm taking the same approach I did with DVD-A/SACD, and that is waiting for a GOOD multi-format player, that has ALL the goods, at a good price. That way I don't get stuck with an obselete player if one format fails.So, did you ever buy a DVD-A and/or SACD player?

Well-heeled audiophiles will always pay a premium to play music that shows off their systems (even if it's not always music they even particularly like!).

Ain't that the truth. This is why a couple of my DVD-Audio/SACD discs are demo samplers with high quality recordings. It works both ways, though, as I am now a fan of Diana Krall, John Pizzarelli and Blue Man Group.

So, did you ever buy a DVD-A and/or SACD player?

Yes, two combos. The first was a Costco cheapy Samsung, which I bought before I realized there were more titles to be found on the net than any of the stores around here.
After I bought 5 new speakers, a year ago, that have all Ti drivers, I couldn't stand the sound of that cheapy piece of crap, so I bought a Denon1930ci. Bigggg improvement.

rdclark: Another good point you made that I didn't think about regarding high res HD-DVD / Blu Ray audio, is that most people will probably be hooking up via the optical/coax, or even the left/right RCA outs. Even people who use HDMI may not have the right version or right equipment to take advantage of multi-channel lossless sound, or even the knowledge to set it up correctly.

I guess what I'm saying is that, at least the formats allow high resolution recordings, whether or not all end users take advantage of it, as opposed to SACD/DVD-Audio where publishers had to produce hybrid material that had backwards compatibility. One disc can be pressed for all.

I guess what I'm saying is that, at least the formats allow high resolution recordings, whether or not all end users take advantage of it, as opposed to SACD/DVD-Audio where publishers had to produce hybrid material that had backwards compatibility. One disc can be pressed for all.

All except the people who want to rip their music for playback on car stereos, portables, CD clock radios, laptops, etc. Which is pretty much everybody.

Anyway, wasn't the "one disc for all" supposed to be the hybrid SACD? :p

There is no need for HD DVD Audio to be "one disc for all" portable audio devices will serve this purpose. I see that high definition audio experience is moving towards home theater set up and driven by HD video technology development. This is new growing market that could not be even compared with Audiophile market.
You should really check out these new titles because High Definition Imagery is really makes these titles fit into overall HDTV environment being just a perfect HD video ambience for Audio Experience.

There is no need for HD DVD Audio to be "one disc for all" portable audio devices will serve this purpose. I see that high definition audio experience is moving towards home theater set up and driven by HD video technology development. This is new growing market that could not be even compared with Audiophile market.
You should really check out these new titles because High Definition Imagery is really makes these titles fit into overall HDTV environment being just a perfect HD video ambience for Audio Experience.


So basically your premise is "this technology is so much more compelling than any home audio technology before it, that it will change the listening habits of tens of millions of people."

That's certainly a lovely thought, but of course there's nothing but hopes and dreams to support it. Because the current installed base of HT technology, numbering in the tens of millions, which already has readily-available music-centric hi-rez formats that are backward-compatible with existing hardware, has demonstrated complete indifference to it.

In other words, even if the most popular music were offered at the same price simultaneously in:

(1) a lossless surround disc format playable on HD or BD players,
(2) a downloadable lossy stereo format (MP3, say), and
(3) a standard Redbook CD

... (1) would sell in such small numbers that the format would eventually be dropped. Because the installed base of players would be too small, because the discs could not be ripped, and even if they could too few people would have compatible drives in their computers.

This may change in 5 years. But by then, the world's available bandwidth will have increased to the point where lossless surround downloads will better serve the niche market that might once have bought the discs.

So basically your premise is "this technology is so much more compelling than any home audio technology before it, that it will change the listening habits of tens of millions of people."

That's certainly a lovely thought, but of course there's nothing but hopes and dreams to support it. Because the current installed base of HT technology, numbering in the tens of millions, which already has readily-available music-centric hi-rez formats that are backward-compatible with existing hardware, has demonstrated complete indifference to it.

In other words, even if the most popular music were offered at the same price simultaneously in:

(1) a lossless surround disc format playable on HD or BD players,
(2) a downloadable lossy stereo format (MP3, say), and
(3) a standard Redbook CD

... (1) would sell in such small numbers that the format would eventually be dropped. Because the installed base of players would be too small, because the discs could not be ripped, and even if they could too few people would have compatible drives in their computers.

This may change in 5 years. But by then, the world's available bandwidth will have increased to the point where lossless surround downloads will better serve the niche market that might once have bought the discs.

However your response is very detail oriented. From my point of view it’s based on the wrong assumptions.
There is no requirements for "change in listening habits of tens of millions of people" like I already mention this product has his own growing HDTV HT market.
Plus HD DVD drives for PC is already on the way and it just up to content providers to allow users to rip or copy original discs.

There is no requirements for "change in listening habits of tens of millions of people" like I already mention this product has his own growing HDTV HT market. Yes but they don't listen. They will sit to watch a movie but the vast and overwhelming majority take their music on the fly. Heck, many of them will even watch the movie on a mobile device. Their listening habits will not let them even recognize the existence of a new HD music medium.

Yes but they don't listen. They will sit to watch a movie but the vast and overwhelming majority take their music on the fly. Heck, many of them will even watch the movie on a mobile device. Their listening habits will not let them even recognize the existence of a new HD music medium.

I think you are mistaking Kal, that being billed is the "Look and Sound of Perfect" and people interested in HDTV market are Igor to get it both visually and sonically, music is not an exception.

There is no requirements for "change in listening habits of tens of millions of people" like I already mention this product has his own growing HDTV HT market.

Yes but they don't listen. They will sit to watch a movie but the vast and overwhelming majority take their music on the fly. Heck, many of them will even watch the movie on a mobile device. Their listening habits will not let them even recognize the existence of a new HD music medium.

+1 Most people who are into the HDTV HT market are not going to be very interested in sitting in their beautiful Home THEATRE which they have optimized for movie watching and pull our an audio only, or an audio with screensaver disk instead of a movie or concert HD DVD/BR.

I think you are mistaking Kal, that being billed is the "Look and Sound of Perfect" and people interested in HDTV market are Igor to get it both visually and sonically, music is not an exception.Well, there you have it. I do not know what you are referring to by "Look and Sound of Perfect" (which seems like ad-speak) but, for the real market, practices are quite different for TV/HT and for music. Those who need/want both at the highest quality are a puny few.

Well, there you have it. I do not know what you are referring to by "Look and Sound of Perfect" (which seems like ad-speak) but, for the real market, practices are quite different for TV/HT and for music. Those who need/want both at the highest quality are a puny few.


Buying and setting up HD DVD Home Theater people are looking to get the best quality of video and sound, I don’t know why you are excluding music from that. Just look how many threads in this section dedicated to sound.

Buying and setting up HD DVD Home Theater people are looking to get the best quality of video and sound, I don’t know why you are excluding music from that. Just look how many threads in this section dedicated to sound.
If that were true, then both DVD-A and SACD should have become main stream. As soon as a combo player became available(dvd-a/sacd/cd/dvd-v) then there you had it. Everything from one box.
Of coarse, HD DVD and BR would come along, but not for about 5 years later.

Buying and setting up HD DVD Home Theater people are looking to get the best quality of video and sound, I don’t know why you are excluding music from that. Just look how many threads in this section dedicated to sound.We are the few here. The rest are different, regardless of how much money they throw at HT.

At the dawn of the SACD/DVD-A, promoters of surround music also thought that the sudden interest for HT will drive the sale of multichanel hi-rez music sales as well.
They were wrong, and I was among those. I invested in both formats early on, while I don't regret it, it's sad fact that the majority of the people choose the Ipods and the likes. Having said that I can't blame many of those, since the daily lives just don't leave much for this especially if you embrace other hobbies as well.Ever since I started to ride motorcycles again I spend less time in my media room, and more on the road, and yes I take my Ipod with me. :)

At the dawn of the SACD/DVD-A, promoters of surround music also thought that the sudden interest for HT will drive the sale of multichanel hi-rez music sales as well.

That true but DVD-A and SACD based on stand along playback systems, plus small marketing efforts was spend to promote this formats compare to efforts directed to promote HD DVD hardware that now have lossless 7.1 audio capabilities.

That true but DVD-A and SACD based on stand along playback systems, plus small marketing efforts was spend to promote this formats compare to efforts directed to promote HD DVD hardware that now have lossless 7.1 audio capabilities.

99 out of 100 people who buy music either cannot hear or do not have speakers good enough to resolve the difference between lossless and lossy compression.

They don't care about the difference between MP3 and Redbook, between PCM and DD, between DD and DTS, between DTS and DVD-A. They can't hear it, and they won't pay for it.

They can buy DVD-A surround music discs that will play on the systems they have RIGHT NOW. They don't. Because there's no video.

People will not sit and listen to music unless there's video. There is no mass market future for any non portable format.

I just realized I've repeated myself too many times in this thread, so I will stop now.

99 out of 100 people who buy music either cannot hear or do not have speakers good enough to resolve the difference between lossless and lossy compression.

They don't care about the difference between MP3 and Redbook, between PCM and DD, between DD and DTS, between DTS and DVD-A. They can't hear it, and they won't pay for it.

They can buy DVD-A surround music discs that will play on the systems they have RIGHT NOW. They don't. Because there's no video.

People will not sit and listen to music unless there's video. There is no mass market future for any non portable format.

I just realized I've repeated myself too many times in this thread, so I will stop now.

I agree that portable devices will continue dominate the market but that doesn’t mean that other formats cant exists, develops and be economically valuable and especially I will continue to be opponent to the opinion that public doesn’t care about quality of sound.

We all hold opinions about these things but the market will determine who is right. Looking at the current market structure, I see no reason to be optimistic that any HD audio format will achieve mass success the way CD did. Things are simply moving in the opposite direction. I would be happy to be proven wrong.;)

Looking at the current market structure, I see no reason to be optimistic that any HD audio format will achieve mass success the way CD did.

Yes, that true, but CD came out before mp3 invasion.
Now of course things match more complicated, but people who taking sound seriously still want to have the right product and that where HD DVD-Audio is going to come in following by popularity of HD Video technology.

They can buy DVD-A surround music discs that will play on the systems they have RIGHT NOW. They don't. Because there's no video.

People will not sit and listen to music unless there's video.


The New HD DVD Audio Titles have Highest Quality VC1 Encoded Video Track that makes them actually fall into "Music Video and Concert" category.

The New HD DVD Audio Titles have Highest Quality VC1 Encoded Video Track that makes them actually fall into "Music Video and Concert" category.

I agree that HD DVD-Audio can become close to Music Video but in terms of content it still more like DVD-A only on HD DVD platform that makes all the difference.

I agree that HD DVD-Audio can become close to Music Video but in terms of content it still more like DVD-A only on HD DVD platform that makes all the difference.

What could make it better than DVD-Audio is if they would use high resolution artwork like 1920x1080 stills for each track which would work great with 16:9 displays, rather than the low res stretched crap that DVD-Audio discs uses. At least the ones I have anyway.

What could make it better than DVD-Audio is if they would use high resolution artwork like 1920x1080 stills for each track which would work great with 16:9 displays, rather than the low res stretched crap that DVD-Audio discs uses. At least the ones I have anyway.

And that is exactly that they use from that I can see, Check out "The Way to Paradise" surrealistic 3-D artworks slideshow as a background video track for electronic music. I don’t know that resolution were original images but it Look Cristal.

But I think the most important thing that can attract wide audience is the new music and sound experience of HD DVD-Audio; however I agree that HD Video will be also the key element to success compared with DVD-A and SACD.

But I think the most important thing that can attract wide audience is the new music and sound experience of HD DVD-Audio; however I agree that HD Video will be also the key element to success compared with DVD-A and SACD.

High resolution sound is important to me, and I would buy, but as others pointed out, physical media is losing relevance as more people download music to iPods and such. One can hope that it catches on. However, if the selection is limited to similar select artists like DVD-Audio/SACD, that's fine with me as long as they keep it coming.

High resolution audio will remain a niche. Most people listen to music as background "white noise." Whether it's music while playing a game, or while jogging, or doing house work, homework, driving, et al. That's the reason convenience and "quality" of lossy audio is more than "good enough" for J6P.

I still very occasionally just sit down, turn off the lights, close my eyes, and listen to music. But those days are few and far between anymore. And for the majority of music being produced today, and the way music is being consumed, we should be skeptical that any high resolution audio-only format can establish itself beyond niche status; if that.

the real problem is that the portable player, for the masses, has become the sit-down, in the house player, too. all those i-pod docks, all the cords that connect i-pods to receivers, etc... people don't want to have a music collection twice; why bother when you can just plug your mp3/itunes player into a receiver, and have it play that way?



You do not even need to plug it.

Wireless is the way to go!!! The only wires will be the ones that go from the receiver to the speakers.

I still very occasionally just sit down, turn off the lights, close my eyes, and listen to music. But those days are few and far between anymore. And for the majority of music being produced today, and the way music is being consumed, we should be skeptical that any high resolution audio-only format can establish itself beyond niche status; if that.

It a niche now, but that niche can defiantly grow with spreading popularity of HD technology and become economically valuable if music content providers decide to explore capabilities of HD DVD market.

It a niche now, but that niche can defiantly grow with spreading popularity of HD technology and become economically valuable if music content providers decide to explore capabilities of HD DVD market.

After experiencing these new titles I totally can see of how music can become a part of HD DVD Experience and become a common format for both Video and Music.:)

You do not even need to plug it.

Wireless is the way to go!!! The only wires will be the ones that go from the receiver to the speakers.Or the ones from the AC outlets to each of these. :D

That is interesting that the similar content that was introduced on these new Music HD DVDs was already presented before on DVD-Audio format only with exception that SD Video Content of DVD-A had no attraction to general public.

That is interesting that the similar content that was introduced on these new Music HD DVDs was already presented before on DVD-Audio format only with exception that SD Video Content of DVD-A had no attraction to general public.

I come across couple reviews of these titles where people writing specifically about enjoying the video presentation. And I enjoy it myself Especially "Space or Dream of Life" featuring unique photography taken from Hubble Telescope.

Let’s get back to the audio: If you already own HD DVD home theater don’t you will restrict yourself to use if only for movies, don’t you want to explore the new way to experience high definition music. Why deprive yourself from this opportunity and settle down for low resolution mp3s only or somebody will say that people don’t want to listen high quality audio if they already have a setup? I don’t know anybody who would say No to that.

Let’s get back to the audio: If you already own HD DVD home theater don’t you will restrict yourself to use if only for movies, don’t you want to explore the new way to experience high definition music. Why deprive yourself from this opportunity and settle down for low resolution mp3s only or somebody will say that people don’t want to listen high quality audio if they already have a setup? I don’t know anybody who would say No to that.

That is really coming down to promotion and marketing. Company like Toshiba and Microsoft should accent sound possibilities and new ways to enjoy the music on HD DVD in where ads and people will start to pay more attention, plus that defiantly can increase the popularity of HD format in general.

Don't SonyBMG and Universal Music Group represent about 50% of the music industry?

Don't SonyBMG and Universal Music Group represent about 50% of the music industry?

So what's your point? This seems to be a bit off-topic.....

Back to the original posters point - I would welcome having more and more music available in multi- or 2-channel lossless at higher resolution than red book 44/16. I doubt that it will become as commonplace as SD DVD, but it might well become common for music video releases, once HD video becomes the norm.

Both rdclark and patmiller (who seem to be going back and forth) make excellent points. Both are serious music fans and have a good idea of what's happened in the past and what will happen in the future.

I have heard the Alexander J HD-DVD music discs and they are quite incredible, but what they are not is "portable". However, listening to them does NOT require the listener to be anchored in a "sweet spot" to enjoy them.

Think about stereo. To listen to a stereo CD/LP/Tape/MP3, etc, you do not (unless you are listening with headphones) sit directly in between the stereo speakers (the stereo sweet spot). No, you go about your business working, cleaning, running around the house while the music plays.

Well, there is no restriction to doing the same thing with a 4.0. 5.1 or 7.1 recording. Just because there is a sound field does not mean you cannot listen to it from different perspectives.

I leave my SACDs, DVD-A's, and can leave these Alexander J HD-DVDs playing on my surround system and can still listen and enjoy the music from wherever I may be in the house, just as if I were listening in stereo. In fact, spreading the soundfield around a larger sound-eminating area by having more speakers make the reflected sound even "bigger".

As for the failure of DVD-A and SACD, yes, they were about 5 years too late with the dawn of the iPod and downloadable music, but they were killed prematurely by the software people. The hardware folks did the job, but people who ended up with the players at home and in their cars lost interest really fast when they went to find titles and were told "We stop carrying those 2 year ago", or "What are you asking for, I don't know about that". Just when the time was right for a bigger push with better titles for each of these formats, the plug was pulled, leaving the hardware manufacturers and the early adopters hanging. What makes it worse was that it was the very companies that fueled the formats (Sony/SACD, WEA/DVD-A) that pulled the respective plugs.

patmiller has a great point that any HD-DVD music be sold alongside HD-DVD videos, because unlike DVD-A/SACD which needed a "enchanced capability player", an HD-DVD music disc can be played on ANY HD-DVD player.

rdclark has a great point that any HD music release is bound to be labeled as a "niche" product geared towards audiophiles. It would NOT be sold "instead" of a CD or download, but as an "special" purchase, much like one would buy an "special deluxe version" of an album one has bought many times before.

Who knows where the market is going. Most likely it will go where "others" want it to go, and the masses and niches will follow.

Only time will tell!

Who knows where the market is going. Most likely it will go where "others" want it to go, and the masses and niches will follow.
Only time will tell!

I agree, however the "others" should know that opportunity exists and new format with 7.1 high definition music is outwhere.

So what's your point? This seems to be a bit off-topic.....



That as long as we're sitting here with two formats that neither has a chance of being the future of music anymore than SACD or DVD-Audio did.

I don't think it's off topic at all.

I would love to see the future of music head into high resolution - I am as starved for hires content as the next audiohead and wish that some of my favourite artists had SACD or DVD-Audio releases, particularly The Verve, Dave Mattews Band (24/48 2.0 PCM is as close as I can get here on the latest Piedmont Park DVD release), David Mead, more Beatles, Zep, more Mike Oldfield, more NIN, Tool, Pearl Jam, Rage, more Metallica like Masters and Kill remastered, etc., etc., etc.

It's great to see some modern artists like John Mayer and Ryan Adams with SACD releases, but I don't think anyone would suggest the hires content released is anywhere remotely near acceptable.

I still hope that changes for the better, but I think you need 3 of the big 4 (EMI, WBM, SBMG & UMG) to do it, otherwise it's going to be the same old song.

Is there a master list of HD DVD Audio type discs out there? :D

The high-definition / surround sound niche is still viable in the classical-music world. New hybrid SACD's appear regularly, mostly on independent labels like BIS and Telarc, along with a very successful series of reissues of vintage three-channel recordings on RCA Living Stereo.

The December issue of Stereophile has an interview with Klaus Heymann, the owner of Naxos, a budget classical label that has grown trememdously in the 1990s and 2000s, and now has a huge catalog. Naxos issued issued some of their recordings in SACD and DVD-Audio format, but gave it up because of poor sales. Heymann says that they're now waiting until HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray has good market penetration, then they'll start releasing their surround-sound recordings in that format.

BD has a another profile . . . 3.0 - Audio only.

So . . . maybe. Very little is known about this profile.

It is great to hear discussion about HD-DVD Audio!

Mr. Jero and I were recently invited to attend CES in January. We will be showcasing Alex's work and answering questions along with the HD-DVD Promotions Group. They are very excited to have an artist who is versed in the format, who has titles released in DTS-HD MA, and the experience to demonstrate the new format to artist and producers who are interested.

I am looking forward to CES and to showing talented musicians and artists what is NOW possible. Lack of knowledge is the only reason that more artists are not mastering in 7.1 DTS-HD MA.

Thank you AVS!

Jason Gilbert
HD Post Consulting
Http://www.HDPostConsulting.com

Just came accross DTS website, they are will be featuring big DTS-HD presentation as well:
http://www.dtsonline.com/ces

Just came accross DTS website, they are will be featuring big DTS-HD presentation as well:
http://www.dtsonline.com/ces

Glad to hear some people still care about high fidelity!

New HD DVD-Audio titles are comming out in Jenuary-Febuary 2008:

HighDefinitionDigest Report (http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Surround_Records)

My friend just called from CES and told me that HD DVD and Blu-Ray had a biggest presentation on the show and allot of attention was directed to the Music Content, Dolby and DTS was greatly presented as well, Dolby had a great showcase of TrueHD and huge line of people was standing in line to experience it and DTS is giving up Free HD DVD and Blu-ray Samplers of DTS-HD MA featuring movie thrillers and Video Clips.

All and All things are looking very promising.

For everybody who is following new Surround Music Releases in High Definition I want to mention that Alexander Jero just stated at the QuadraphonicQuad forum that his plans for HD DVD-Audio releases doesn’t change a bit and this year we will see many exiting HD music titles coming from Surround Records (http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Surround_Records).

Maybe to us nichers, but the cattle have chosen to follow a tic-tac case that plays sub-FM quality digital files...

C'mon, honestly... *smacks head*

I think no matter who will win in the format war HD technology will continue successfully penetrate the market. And everything that we talk about later in this tread are Not directly depended on will be or not particular technology provider dominate HD market in the future.

I like how people are pinning their hopes on a niche market OF a niche market, while dvd-audio and sacd have already failed.

lol.

Seriously, I read many of those posts on these forums and go away laughing. Thanks!

I like how people are pinning their hopes on a niche market OF a niche market, while dvd-audio and sacd have already failed.



There is no reason to reject a fact that this is just a beginning of HD penetration of the market and this niche market will defiantly become a mainstream at the nearest future.

GREAT NEWS!

Two new Classical Music releases comming out on HD DVD.

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 2 Resurrection in 5.1 DolbyTruHD from Euroarts (already announced)

and

Vivaldi - The Four Seasons / Concertos for Double Orchestra - Acoustic Reality Experience in 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio
from Surround Records.
Already available at Amazon:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FY8jFhtpL._SS500_.jpg

That is really noticeable about this release that this is the first classical recording in 7.1 lossless audio.

GREAT NEWS!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FY8jFhtpL._SS500_.jpg

Are feet case coming back?

Are feet case coming back?

Ya, interesting cover,
I would say it is look more like some big studio location then
a concert hall.

Interesting topic...I would like to see it live on, if not the format itself. I read somewhere on this board that today’s CD's are being "optimized" for the MP3 era. Not hard to believe considering my music collection spans several decades and I have become more frustrated with the evolution of CD's over the years as it relates to the quality of content. A few years back I bought a new computer that had a sound card that was compatible with DVD Audio and I was blown away with the quality of the sample DVD included. The lack of that media type ultimately extinguished any hope to the point that SACD came and left before I did a double take (or maybe it was here first). I'm curious (and hopeful) now that this topic started a few months ago...has there been any encouraging activity with this format? Is DTS-HD MA the preferred (or only) format for HD DVD Audio?

Even if there was BD-Audio, it would fail. So NO is my personal answer on this. DVD is in virtually in every home, and DVD-Audio went ...nowhere. Nothing is going to change, except for maybe CDs dying in favor of downloads.

So be happy with your CDs knowing that it's likely they will be the last mainstream physical music format you'll ever see.

Even if there was BD-Audio, it would fail. So NO is my personal answer on this. DVD is in virtually in every home, and DVD-Audio went ...nowhere. Nothing is going to change, except for maybe CDs dying in favor of downloads.

So be happy with your CDs knowing that it's likely they will be the last mainstream physical music format you'll ever see.

I prefer the path of optimism...

I prefer the path of optimism...

+1 This "Sounds" like something I would buy.:D

DVD is in virtually in every home, and DVD-Audio went ...nowhere.

But not every DVD player played DVD-Audio. Every Blu Ray player should be able to play any theoretical BD-Audio discs released.

But not every DVD player played DVD-Audio. Every Blu Ray player should be able to play any theoretical BD-Audio discs released.

Yes, plus the lag time between the first release of DVD players in the mid '90's and the release of DVD-A around '02. So many people had DVD-V and didn't want to have to buy another player for DVD-A, a few years later.

Every Blu Ray player should be able to play any theoretical BD-Audio discs released.
What's the resolution of "BD-Audio"?

On second thought, maybe this should be in the BD Forum, not the HD DVD Forum!

What's the resolution of "BD-Audio"?

On second thought, maybe this should be in the BD Forum, not the HD DVD Forum!

I'm not sure if there is a BD-Audio format in the works, I'm so out of it, but wouldn't it be 7.1 96KHz/24-bit lossless? If so, I'd be all for it.

You're right, though. I forgot where I was...in the HD DVD forum!

I'm not sure if there is a BD-Audio format in the works, I'm so out of it, but wouldn't it be 7.1 96KHz/24-bit lossless? If so, I'd be all for it.

You're right, though. I forgot where I was...in the HD DVD forum!
Fr: NoCal 2 SoCal:
I thought it would 'just' match the (L)PCM of current BD movie soundtracks.
Thanks, fellow Cali!

Back On Topic:
When I 1st saw this thread title, way back when, I thought HD DVD-A "had" to be the "future". Cause it certainly wasn't the HD audio format of yesterday or today.
Now with HD DVD being flushed down the toilet ( :( and me w/my 100 or so discs :o ) the future sounds silent.

But not every DVD player played DVD-Audio. Every Blu Ray player should be able to play any theoretical BD-Audio discs released.
No. Blu-Ray audio is a seperate featureset, called profile 3.0. To date NOT A SINGLE PLAYER supports profile 3.0. No one has even mentioned in passing the remotest interest in developing one.

No. Blu-Ray audio is a seperate featureset, called profile 3.0. To date NOT A SINGLE PLAYER supports profile 3.0. No one has even mentioned in passing the remotest interest in developing one.

No need for this "seperate featureset" HD DVD Audio model can work for Blu-ray as well.