no multiroom capability (like moxi mate) I really don't see the point in buying (upgrading) :(

Have to say I'm surprised that Tivo didnt go for more tuners on this "new" hardware. A single M card can handle up to 6 streams, why not take advantage of that, at least 4 of them (or 3 like their competition does?). I was hoping the Tivo Premiere would be my stepping stone back to cable (with a few new HD channel additions from the cableco). But it looks like I can have a much better solution for TV by using a Ceton card with single M-card and a SDV tuning adapter if SDV is ever deployed here. I like the Tivo GUI and all, but 2 tuners kills it for me as my house regularly needs 3-4, sometimes more.

Maybe a little off-topic but whatever happend to the infamous Comcast-Tivo box? I think they rolled it out in New England but that was it. Was there really any serious effort made to turn this into a real product???

Oops, no comcast on demand... http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/03/oops-tivo-premiere-wont-have-comcast-on-demand/

I'm a Comcast customer. I use Comcast on demand, including the generous HD on demand library we have in our area. I do not own any Tivo. Seeing the Comcast on Demand icon in the menu yesterday had me really thinking on getting this Tivo for the updated interface and features.

Now there's report of no Comcast on demand... nevermind that it will work with RCN's on demand service.

Me as a potential customer to Tivo? Nope. If I want a new DVR, might as well get a Moxi since this can't to on demand.

you can be snarky all you want, but most people here agree with me. we're just the only ones in the thread right now.

+1

I bought a TiVo HD last April and I was mildly worried that the Series 4 would make me jealous...not so.

Sure, I'd like to have the new HD interface and Pandora, but I was really surpised at how little they sweetened the pot.

Love my TiVo HD, btw. :D

What was unveiled yesterday was not the Tivo Premiere, it was the software running on the Premiere. They set out to design a modular content aggregation software package with a UI that's easily ported to nearly any new STB. The hardware is incidental at this point, it's just a stepping stone to the next evolution of the company, being a software vendor for MSOs STBs.

Wow. A very interesting and insightful observation. :cool:

Wow. A very interesting and insightful observation. :cool:
Maybe. If Cablevision's roll out of the Remote DVR takes off, other MSOs will surely follow. That makes the traditional DVR have a rather dismal long term outlook. How does Tivo survive such a scenario? License their interface to the cableco STB?

Moderators Note:

Should I start a new topic for Premier?

From Multichannel News

Comcast In Talks With TiVo About 'Premiere'

Operator Might Port HD DVR Interface to Tru2way Platform

By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 3/3/2010

Comcast is discussing the possibility of porting TiVo's Premiere user interface -- designed to provide enhanced search and recommendation features on HDTV sets -- to a tru2way-based platform.

TiVo on Tuesday announced the Premiere and Premiere XL next-generation set-top boxes, code-named Neutron, which the company is positioning as the only device viewers need to access cable, movies, Web content and music from their TVs.

TiVo Central menu"TiVo Premiere interface"The Premiere interface, optimized for 16:9 aspect-ratio screens, is based on Adobe Systems' Flash platform. The guide includes a new video window that shows what's currently playing while a user navigates menus, and also provides an integrated search feature across TV listings, DVR recordings, Internet video like YouTube videos and premium broadband-delivered content from Amazon.com, Blockbuster and Netflix.

"We think the new [TiVo] interface is innovative, and while there are no immediate plans, we are talking with TiVo about how we might use it with our tru2way software platform," Comcast senior director of corporate communications Jenni Moyer said.

Tru2way is the CableLabs specification for interactive TV applications that the six largest U.S. cable operators have committed to rolling out across their footprints, as a way to let third-party consumer electronics access cable guides and other ITV apps without an operator-supplied set-top.

Comcast originally announced its distribution deal with TiVo in March 2005, and the project was beset with delays as the companies struggled to migrate the TiVo interface to a Java-based platform running on Motorola set-tops. Comcast finally launched TiVo service commercially in January 2008.

Last fall, Comcast "reinitiated" marketing across the New England market, which includes Boston, "now that the vast majority of technical hurdles have been cleared," TiVo president and CEO Tom Rogers said on the company's Nov. 24 earnings call. The cable company also has said it plans to make TiVo the "primary" DVR option for customers in at least one tru2way-enabled market, but hasn't identified it yet.

RCN, meanwhile, plans to begin rolling out TiVo Premiere boxes as its primary DVR starting in the second quarter of 2010 across all its markets.

TiVo may provide an update on Comcast's deployments when it reports earnings next Monday for the quarter and fiscal year ended Jan. 31.

Maybe. If Cablevision's roll out of the Remote DVR takes off, other MSOs will surely follow. That makes the traditional DVR have a rather dismal long term outlook. How does Tivo survive such a scenario? License their interface to the cableco STB?

Yes, how do they survive otherwise?

Cablecard is a failure. Expecting people to buy a box, call up their cable company, ask for something they've likely never heard of before, make an appointment for it to be installed, get everything setup, be cut off from support from the cable company as well as all the additional offerings (OnDemand) that the cable company has WHILE paying a premium for it is too much to ask for the vast majority.

There are two routes that can be taken at this juncture. Cater to the niche enthusiast which requires constant innovation and usually results in lower sales or cater to the masses which require ease of use and low cost. TiVo's current business model falls somewhere in-between.

The only way TiVo is going to prop up their sagging subscriber base is to insinuate themselves into MSO hardware. Remote DVR does't even preclude this as storage of the recordings server side still requires a search/scheduling interface.

Really, the evidence is in front of us from these "mockups" that included the Comcast OnDemand panel. As to whether or not the MSOs will play ball and work with TiVo to supply this service to their subscribers, I suspect that's what the lawsuits are for. They are trying to demonstrate infringement so that the MSOs will have no choice but to license TiVo software or start from scratch to create DVR software that doesn't infringe.

TiVo isn't developing hardware anymore. I bet the Premiere is found to be a bog standard broadcom reference design for the chipset being used (which will likely be the basis of nearly every new MSO STB that's rolled out in the future.) Almost ANY new SOC being released has hardware support for flash which would explain why they did the entire UI in flash. We'll see how things go, but I bet that the new DirecTivo is going to be the first of many MSO announcements in the coming years.

Edit:

^^^^^ Ha, took less time than I thought.

..........
What was unveiled yesterday was not the Tivo Premiere, it was the software running on the Premiere. They set out to design a modular content aggregation software package with a UI that's easily ported to nearly any new STB. The hardware is incidental at this point, it's just a stepping stone to the next evolution of the company, being a software vendor for MSOs STBs.

I would NOT be surprised if this was the last bit of TiVo branded hardware ever released. It's simply a devkit gussied up for consumer release to keep the name viable in the market for the next few years.

I don't believe that Tivo wants to be only a software vendor. You simply just can not control the overall user experience when there are too many different hardware platforms with numerous levels of performance.

I don't believe that Tivo wants to be only a software vendor. You simply just can not control the overall user experience when there are too many different hardware platforms with numerous levels of performance.

Tivo should be the hardware and software supplier, but cable ops like Time Warner have decided to forego 3rd party vendors and make their own bug ridden piece of crap in house guide. Something really needs to be done to allow 3rd party devices into the marketplace. If Tru2Way becomes reality and mandated, then we might finally have that option.

Tivo should be the hardware and software supplier, but cable ops like Time Warner have decided to forego 3rd party vendors and make their own bug ridden piece of crap in house guide. Something really needs to be done to allow 3rd party devices into the marketplace. If Tru2Way becomes reality and mandated, then we might finally have that option.

Tivo is not only a hw/sw supplier, but also, more importantly, a service provider. That is actually the reason why they are having problems with MSOs or other service providers (such as satellite tv) when they try to put their boxes onto those platforms. Tivo UI provides users with not only PVR functionality but also tv program seraching/tuning/watching experience which other service providers who own the platforms also want to control. Even Tru2Way can not help :-(

Moderators Note:

Should I start a new topic for Premier?

I vote yes. It's not obvious that this "unofficial" thread from months ago still applies to the now officially announced hardware. Well, it wasn't obvious to me, anyway.

The thing I guess I don't get is, TivoHD wasn't enough for a second box at $179 refurb'ed, but Premiere with the only upgrade being a new interface and a couple more hours of HD at $299 is a no-brainer. I guess I just don't see it.

The only way I'd consider a premiere is if I could get $200 at least for my TivoHD (no contract). Even then I'd be on the fence.

Check out the "upgrade" offer: If you have lifetime on your HD, which I do, you can get a new Premiere, add lifetime for $199 ($200 off) and you still get to keep your current TivoHD active.

Tivo is not only a hw/sw supplier, but also, more importantly, a service provider. That is actually the reason why they are having problems with MSOs or other service providers (such as satellite tv) when they try to put their boxes onto those platforms. Tivo UI provides users with not only PVR functionality but also tv program seraching/tuning/watching experience which other service providers who own the platforms also want to control. Even Tru2Way can not help :-(

I get that, but by enabling VOD/PPV the MSO still can derive a revenue stream without the cost of supporting an in house guide and hardware. They need to face reality and understand that people are already flocking to net based programming one way or another. I just installed the "internet tv" feature into my Windows 7 Media Center and love it. I'm adding a tuner card for QAM/OTA/and FM next. CBS/Paramount is at the forefront by offering tons of content right in the guide already. Hell, you can watch full seasons of older shows as well as keep up with new shows.

im also a recovering TIVO addict. I've had more than 3 different boxes, including the il-fated Tivo HD THX. Sadly I finally moved over to ATT U-Verse "just to try it". Im disappointed that the Series 4 isnt keeping up with the market competition. :(

Check out the "upgrade" offer: If you have lifetime on your HD, which I do, you can get a new Premiere, add lifetime for $199 ($200 off) and you still get to keep your current TivoHD active.

You still have to buy the box for $299. I'd never buy lifetime on a product that is such a volatle technology, plus being tied to an actual physical piece of hardware that can die at any time.

I don't believe that Tivo wants to be only a software vendor. You simply just can not control the overall user experience when there are too many different hardware platforms with numerous levels of performance.

That's the thing though, there aren't. Nearly all STBs of a generation (TiVo included) are based on the same broadcom platform.

As pointed out, TiVo is a service provider and their service has NEVER been as successful as when they had a strong MSO showing with the DirecTiVo.

To put it another way, there have been maybe about 300,000 or so S3/HDs sold since Q4 2006. We can easily extrapolate this number due to the fact that the FCC has stated there have only been around 443,000 cable cards deployed into consumer equipment. We know that not all of those cards were deployed in TiVos and we also know that quite a few of those are not MCards so two were required. 300,000 may actually be a generous number.

However, as of January 2009, they still had over 3 milion active subs, split evenly between TiVo hardware and MSO subs (like DirecTivos).

Now, you're TiVo. Faced with the fact that MSO subs peaked nearly 1 million higher than TiVo hardware subs ever did and that your current product isn't moving fast enough to replace lost TiVo hardware subs, what do you do? You figure out how to exploit the ease at which MSOs get hardware into the home to turn those cable subscribers into TiVo subscribers as well. Knowing that you don't have a prayer to doing this if your service is tightly tied to your own hardware as it was in the past and seeing the limited success you had with grafting TiVo functionality on to existing STB software, you go back to the drawing board. You implement a highly modular STB software that uses a UI based on a platform that you can be sure that any next generation MSO STB will have hardware support for (flash).

Now you have a product that's easily ported to a wide range of next generation STB hardware (timed very nicely with early MSO evaluations of tru2way hardware). This is were legal steps in and reminds the MSOs that they may have patent claims on their current DVR implementations, making them think long and hard about just licensing TiVo software and service on behalf of their subscribers.

In the meantime though, TiVo needs a product so they put the bare minimum effort required to get hardware using their new software on the market. Thus, we get the Premiere models.

That's the thing though, there aren't. Nearly all STBs of a generation (TiVo included) are based on the same broadcom platform.There are basically two generations of Broadcom hardware out in the market. Probably 95% of it offers comparable performance to the TiVo HD. The other 5% (Motorola DCX, Samsung tru2way DVRs) offers performance more comparable to the Premiere. Which market does TiVo focus on? The 5% with the hardware to run a more capable HD UI, or the 95% that will be phased out and replaced over the next five years?

There's also the issue of middleware. Cable company boxes don't run their DVR software directly on top of the OS like TiVo. Cable boxes run middleware as necessary to support their particular system configuration; they run their DVR software on top of that middleware. TiVo's software won't function on cable boxes, because those boxes lose their cable system compatibility without the appropriate middleware.

TiVo had a very difficult time creating a Java version of its software that could run with adequate performance on top of the middleware used by Comcast on its Motorola systems. It is not feasible for TiVo to write a "portable" version of their software for every middleware platform. The platforms aren't engineered that way, which is the main reason for the creation of tru2way/OCAP; OCAP was supposed to provide a common middleware platform that all systems could support, thus providing for some means of code portability. Unfortunately for TiVO, tru2way and OCAP were tailored for the software needs of cable companies, and not third-parties.

TiVo had a very difficult time creating a Java version of its software that could run with adequate performance on top of the middleware used by Comcast on its Motorola systems. It is not feasible for TiVo to write a "portable" version of their software for every middleware platform. The platforms aren't engineered that way, which is the main reason for the creation of tru2way/OCAP; OCAP was supposed to provide a common middleware platform that all systems could support, thus providing for some means of code portability. Unfortunately for TiVO, tru2way and OCAP were tailored for the software needs of cable companies, and not third-parties.

Don't you think it's likely though that TiVo designed the new software to work with tru2way and OCAP, even if it wasn't tailored to their needs? From Comcast's reaction above, it would seem pretty foolish if they didn't since they seemed to pounce on TiVo as soon as it was announced.

Moderators Note:

Should I start a new topic for Premier?
Yes

oh man..... just looked at the discounts. $239 for Premiere, $399 for XL........ after all this, I still might consider it...... of course I'd feel like a heel.

ugh.

if I did I'd give my parents the TivoHD in the living room, or sell it and just break pretty even.

oh man..... just looked at the discounts. $239 for Premiere, $399 for XL........
Where are you seeing these discounted prices?? :eek:

Where are you seeing these discounted prices?? :eek:
Did you click this link (https://www3.tivo.com/store/upgrade.do?WT.ac=shophome_upgradetile&WT.z_success=upgrade_cta)?

Moderators Note:

Should I start a new topic for Premier?

Keep this one, but rename it as I asked. I asked it to be changed from Series 4 "UnOfficial" to Series 4 "Official", since apparently TiVo is still using that name. However, I would not object to have it renamed to TiVo Premiere Official (or something similar to that).

Note: I'm the guy who started this thread, so I think the history should be kept to allow someone new to follow and/or review the speculation and questioning that's been going on since December 2007. :cool:

I will leave the decision up to the moderators.

Keep this one, but rename it as I asked. I asked it to be changed from Series 4 "UnOfficial" to Series 4 "Official", since apparently TiVo is still using that name. However, I would not object to have it renamed to TiVo Premiere Official (or something similar to that).This thread isn't particularly helpful for those seeking information on the Premiere.

By the end of the month, I expect to have a Premiere FAQ similar to the TivoHD FAQ linked in my signature.

This thread isn't particularly helpful for those seeking information on the Premiere.

By the end of the month, I expect to have a Premiere FAQ similar to the TivoHD FAQ linked in my signature.

I saw the FAQ thread and it's nice, but this was always meant as a discussion (and speculation as well, since there was no 'Series 4' box out there) thread. There are less than 300 entries in it - I don't think it's too difficult to peruse through should it be kept.

A personal note: I like seeing my ID as a thread starter and I hope it can stay. :D

this thread isn't particularly helpful for those seeking information on the premiere.

By the end of the month, i expect to have a premiere faq similar to the tivohd faq linked in my signature.

+1

Did you click this link (https://www3.tivo.com/store/upgrade.do?WT.ac=shophome_upgradetile&WT.z_success=upgrade_cta)?

Yep, I am getting that same price as an existing tivo customer, the funny thing is I am eligible to get $100 off a lifetime service or $100 the Premiere XL but not both. I have tried but it seems if you get one discount then you are not eligible for the other.

Anyone getting both, I'd like to hear about it.

If I understand correctly you get one discount or the other but not both.

What a great thread.
I actually paused the laserdisc player running "The King and I" to read the entire thread. (Read ironic here)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18230699&postcount=17

Imagine a Tivo Premiere that can copy to a PC so much faster than the Tivo HD which takes 1.5 hours for a 1 hour HD show, even with the bfdtv suggestion to set the Tivo to 'not received' channels

Well, not really, since TWC San Diego has the 'no copy flag' set for just about everything. Only my OTA channels can be copied.

Of course there is always the Haupauge box to circumvent that situation. Component in to USB out.

Decisions, decisions.

But please keep up the posts, it is more exciting to read these than watch the trash on TV.

Did you click this link (https://www3.tivo.com/store/upgrade.do?WT.ac=shophome_upgradetile&WT.z_success=upgrade_cta)?

How do they determine what to offer you?

I currently own a Series 3 with lifetime service. I have another older one but it's not in service.

The offer I see is 50% off the lifetime service on a new XL. That's it. I don't see any hardware discounts.

The thing is, I'd like to get one but if I did then I don't need my Series 3. If they would let me transfer my existing lifetime service and maybe a little hardware discount I'd bite.

B

You still have to buy the box for $299. I'd never buy lifetime on a product that is such a volatle technology, plus being tied to an actual physical piece of hardware that can die at any time.

But at $200 for the lifetime how can you lose?

I've had a lifetime contract on my TiVo boxes since my original Sony Series 1. When S3 came out they let me transfer it over for like $100. Also, I think lifetime was waaaay cheaper back when I got it. Anyways it's been great.

So you spend $200 on lifetime now. Even considering the discounted monthly ~$10 your break even point is barely over a year and a half. Everything after that is gravy.

From Multichannel News
Ken, thanks for the Tivo on Comcast update. I'll believe this one when I see it...

Where are you seeing these discounted prices?? :eek:

Fat*allet is offering:
# $37.50 Cash Back on TiVo Premiere DVR
# $50 Cash Back on TiVo Premiere XL DVR

I placed an order for the Premiere XL DVR yesterday, after signing up for a free account at Fat*allet and received notification today from them for my $50 cashback on my $399 purchase. I was eligible for the 20% TiVo discount offered to present subscribers. This brings the Premiere XL price down to $350 (plus tax).

Just too good to pass up!

One item in the new Series 4 that I like, and I don't see discussed in this thread, is the new dual core processor that significantly increases the speed of the Series 4 over previous versions.

There are other minor improvements that I would like, but the faster processor would be a reason for me to upgrade from my Tivo HD.

if they take advantage of it.

Subscription Deleted. Tivo didn't do anything of interest for me. In all likelihood, I will build a custom HTPC to do what I want.

I'm taking my series 4 back. I like me series 3 better.

I'm taking my series 4 back. I like me series 3 better.

What does your Series 3 offer that the Premiere doesn't? :confused:

What does your Series 3 offer that the Premiere doesn't? :confused:

Oled display. Front panel buttons. More outputs on back (including S-video).
THX certification (available on Premiere XL). More sensitive tuners. No restriction on external expansion drive.

One item in the new Series 4 that I like, and I don't see discussed in this thread, is the new dual core processor that significantly increases the speed of the Series 4 over previous versions.

There are other minor improvements that I would like, but the faster processor would be a reason for me to upgrade from my Tivo HD.

Has TiVo even activated the second core yet?

Has TiVo even activated the second core yet?

pretty sure no. But the 14.5 software is faster, and I "hear" the beta software is even faster than that.

I didn't think so, thanks.

pretty sure no. But the 14.5 software is faster, and I "hear" the beta software is even faster than that.
NO!?! That's like having a Ferrari and running it on cheap gas on only half the cylinders... :eek::(

Pretty sure it's not as simple as all that. It is much faster lately though, enough that I left it in the HD UI