Since TiVo has announced a new "Series 4" box for next year (when, exactly "next year" is unknown), I've decided to start an "unofficial" thread, as opposed to the "official" thread for the Series 3, to discuss this new hardware.

Speculations or factual information, all are welcome! :D

I'd bet this will include the upcoming SDV dongle. I'd love to see support for PPV as well as OTA HD.

I've heard some rumors mulling around that this is going to integrate the SDV Dongle into the box.

I've heard some rumors mulling around that this is going to integrate the SDV Dongle into the box.Right.

The Tivo Series4 -- expected by October 2008 -- is said to integrate full two-way functionality into the box. The Tivo Series3 and TivoHD are supposed to get the dongle for SDV next spring (2Q 2008).

So my question would be: will the cable companies get into the market of selling these new Tivo boxes along with their generic boxes (w/ Tivo software as well)?

I know the first answer would be NO, but I think the cable companies would be smart to start offering more powerful Tivo boxes for higher end customers. They can eat some of the cost of the box, and get a bigger chunk of the monthly sub from Tivo.

Decided to resurrect this thread because of many cable ops (like HBO, see link) deciding to move to MPEG-4. New box needed?

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=127163&site=cdn

No. A simple software update for the Series3 and TiVo HD units will add MPEG-4 AVC support. Both units ship with a decoder chip that's capable of decoding both MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1 - all that's needed are the details of how it'll be transported over the wire. Unlike most existing cable boxes. :)

The Tivo Series4 -- expected by October 2008 -- is said to integrate full two-way functionality into the box.


Anyone know if TiVo is still on track to release by October 2008? That is only about 3 months from now. I haven't heard anything on these new boxes since about last December, that I think will have tru2way built in for SDV and 2 way communication for PPV and Ondemand.

No. A simple software update for the Series3 and TiVo HD units will add MPEG-4 AVC support. Both units ship with a decoder chip that's capable of decoding both MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1 - all that's needed are the details of how it'll be transported over the wire. Unlike most existing cable boxes. :)
That's what we were led to believe with M-Card (in M-Mode) support on the S3. Unfortunately there can always be bugs or issues that are not known until testing with real data that make it more difficult or impossible to support MPEG4. There are different profiles, different encoding options, etc. TiVo sometimes prioritizes features different than the consumer would like. So there is no disagreement the specs for the chipset say MPEG4 is supported, but you shouldn't make the assumption that TiVo will support (enable support) for MPEG4 on the boxes with a simple software update. That's not to say it won't happen, just don't make the assumption that it will definitely happen and you are future proof w/r/t MPEG4.

That's what we were led to believe with M-Card (in M-Mode) support on the S3. Unfortunately there can always be bugs or issues that are not known until testing with real data that make it more difficult or impossible to support MPEG4. There are different profiles, different encoding options, etc. TiVo sometimes prioritizes features different than the consumer would like. So there is no disagreement the specs for the chipset say MPEG4 is supported, but you shouldn't make the assumption that TiVo will support (enable support) for MPEG4 on the boxes with a simple software update. That's not to say it won't happen, just don't make the assumption that it will definitely happen and you are future proof w/r/t MPEG4.

It has the guts to do it, id be more concerned if theyd used a chip without the decoding power. Mcards work, just took a little time for the s3 over the thd.

That's what we were led to believe with M-Card (in M-Mode) support on the S3.

Well, there was the fact that they had a terrible time dealing with CableCARD controller chip vendor - that stymied M-Card support. We know MPEG-4 AVC support is going to work, as it's going to be required for the YouTube stuff (and the HD Unbox stuff), which is supposed to be coming in the next major software update - a lot of new stuff hinges on it, so if they were having that sort of trouble with the decoder chip, they wouldn't be doing any of that either.

Great, sort of. I was thinking about picking up a couple of Tivo's, but if a new one is due in 3 months spending that money now would be stupid. Then I should be able to get the new model or pick up the current ones at a discount. Of course, I really didn't want to wait three months, so it's annoying.

I would really like to find out for a fact if the series 4 Tivo will support DirecTV and Dish like they did in the past. Would love to have stayed with Tivo but since I have HD through DirecTV then I must use their DVR. My guess though is DirecTV won't allow them to do this just like Dish because they want a closed solution and sell their own DVR boxes.

Any thoughts?

I would really like to find out for a fact if the series 4 Tivo will support DirecTV and Dish like they did in the past. Would love to have stayed with Tivo but since I have HD through DirecTV then I must use their DVR. My guess though is DirecTV won't allow them to do this just like Dish because they want a closed solution and sell their own DVR boxes.

The Series4 TiVo, as in the same unit that's going to work on cable? Absolutely not for Dish, and almost certainly not for D*. The only reason I say "almost certainly not" is that it might be possible to use the USB-connected dual-tuner box that D* is going to be selling for use with Vista Media Center - at least, *technically* it could work. However, given that there's been no recent apparent change in attitude from D*, I don't think they're going to allow TiVo to support them that way - and there's no other way that TiVo could integrate with either service (since they're basically indefinitely waivered from the CableCARD mandates that the cable providers are affected by). So... don't hold your breath.

No announcements. So... now what?

We do know that TiVo is working on a true2way model and a new DirecTV HDTV model. More specific information than that is currently unknown.

Traditionally, TiVo has released new DVRs in the July-October timeframe. Personally, I don't see what pre-announcing now would accomplish, besides hurting sales of their existing product.

The Series4 TiVo, as in the same unit that's going to work on cable? Absolutely not for Dish, and almost certainly not for D*. The only reason I say "almost certainly not" is that it might be possible to use the USB-connected dual-tuner box that D* is going to be selling for use with Vista Media Center...This product has been canceled. No replacement is known at this time.

Don't worry ...

I'm going to order/buy two of the refurb. Tivo HD DVRs from the Tivo web site.

This usually means that a newer/better less expensive product will be coming along soon thereafter. :)

-Gary K

We do know that TiVo is working on a true2way model and a new DirecTV HDTV model.

I have no knowledge of a retail tru2way TiVo under development, and the NCTA recently confirmed for me that those specs haven't been finalized or released to manufacturers. However, it's possible a tru2way TiVo cable product is under development for a partner like Comcast or Cox. And, of course, it's possible likely even that there are many things I'm unaware of. :)

I have no knowledge of a retail tru2way TiVo under development

Bummer.

and the NCTA recently confirmed for me that those specs haven't been finalized or released to manufacturers.

Really? Much of the infrastructure is supposed to be in place by July:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/161959-CES_2009_Comcast_TWC_To_Flip_Tru2way_Switch_By_July_1.php

And Panasonic is already shipping tru2way TVs in some markets like Chicago.

How could those things be going on if the specs haven't been finalized?

And Panasonic is already shipping tru2way TVs in some markets like Chicago. How could those things be going on if the specs haven't been finalized?

First, I think it's highly unlikely the entire cable industry will support/run tru2way by the summer date in the MOU (which is not legally binding and such). Next, the tru2way specs for televisions are not the same as the more complex retail DVR network interface, especially since the CE folks have been pushing to use the cable-cos guide data within their own UI. And one more point of reference, Digeo's CEO also mentioned to me that the retail specs haven't been finalized/distributed.

the CE folks have been pushing to use the cable-cos guide data within their own UI..Have you heard anything to indicate that Cable Labs is headed in that direction?

I know the existing true2way specs do not provide the means for a third-party TV/STB/DVR manufacturer to provide their own EPG/UI that uses the cable company's information. I know CE companies have long requested that guide data be presented in a standard format, but I have not heard anything from Cable Labs' about a plan to actually do that. Have you?

To this point, I've just assumed that TiVo or Moxi would have to provide their own program information for a true2way box, much as they do today, since the existing true2way specs do not provide for a standard guide format.

Have you heard anything to indicate that Cable Labs is headed in that direction? I know CE companies have long requested that guide data be presented in a standard format, but I have not heard anything from Cable Labs' about a plan to actually do that. Have you?Nothing official or on the record, but based on some discussions not so long ago I'm left with the feeling it's on the drawing board, in the works. However, the current intent versus what's ultimately locked down and delivered may vary. And so it goes with the cable industry... :/

To this point, I've just assumed that TiVo or Moxi would have to provide their own program information for a true2way box, much as they do today, I also assume they may want their own guide data, for complete control and in many cases TiVo's info is better, they pay for more thorough info than most providers. Then again, maybe there'd be a cost savings in utilizing the cable-co stuff. But I assume Digeo and TiVo don't have huge motivation anyway, since by providing their own VOD they can pull in additional revenue. The main reason to go to tru2way is to handle SDV, and with the dongles out there perhaps there's less rush - and I've heard Comcast has or may be abandoning SDV entirely - at least in some regions. Hm.

Interesting. I had assumed that tru2way and SDV would provide motivation for Tivo to produce a series 4 in the not too distant future. If that's not the case, then maybe it could be a long time before series 4 sees the light of day?

Interesting. I had assumed that tru2way and SDV would provide motivation for Tivo to produce a series 4 in the not too distant future. If that's not the case, then maybe it could be a long time before series 4 sees the light of day?Aside from the upfront cost and monthly fee, the inability to access [free] cable company VOD is probably the #1 reason people don't buy TiVos. If I were TiVo, I would want to address that.

Aside from the upfront cost and monthly fee, the inability to access [free] cable company VOD is probably the #1 reason people don't buy TiVos. If I were TiVo, I would want to address that.

Agreed. I am hoping that series 4 has that capability. Wouldn't that require True2way, or is there some other way that Tivo can access cable company VOD?

TiVo still intends to have a retail Tru2way Series 4 but both the Tru2way DVR and TiVo Series 4 details and specs are still being finalized. It will probably be a while.

Old news but lest we forget:


1) Recent tweaks to tru2way, for example, allow for some forthcoming DVRs from TiVo Inc. to toggle between its navigation system and the operator's native guide.


2) In the FCC filing this week, TiVo notes that cable has agreed to make a few "clarifications or adjustments" to the OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP) in ways TiVo believes are necessary to build a "viable retail DVR" powered by the CableLabs-specified middleware.

Those "adjustments" will enable TiVo boxes with OCAP to run in two modes:

TiVo Mode: In addition to displaying all the operator's linear channels (and those offered via switched digital video techniques), this mode will preserve the TiVo user interface and tap into the box's full DVR functionality.

Cable Mode: Running OCAP, this mode will give customers access to general programming services and other MSO-supplied set-top applications via the cable operator's native user interface, and toggle off the device's DVR functions.


They obviously have a lot to work out. I wouldn't expect anything until 2010.

Aside from the upfront cost and monthly fee, the inability to access [free] cable company VOD is probably the #1 reason people don't buy TiVos. If I were TiVo, I would want to address that.

I have to agree with that whole-heartedly. That is exactly the reason why I am not investing anymore in my TiVos. I have 2 SD TiVos that was holding on to despite being more HD oriented, but the lack of VOD services has prevented me from going cablecard HD TiVo. It's been a 8 or 9 years and I'll consider resubbing when this new TiVo comes out, but for now it's just not economically viable to continue to keep those 2 TiVos. I hate to have to endure the horrible Cable DVR but at least the Dish Network DVR I have for my other service is more bearable. I'll miss you TiVo UI and I'll miss accessing my Rhapsody account via TiVo too. :) Hurry up and I'll be back!

:shrug: The whole point of having a DVR is to record what you want to watch, not what the cableCo thinks you might like (i.e., VOD). It's a nice to have, but I don't miss it given what Tivo offers in return.

So why not have a cable STB on one TV and your Tivo on another? That's exactly what I do. Best of both.

I saw an article last summer that there are 2.1 TVs per household. So, presumably, anyone that could afford a Tivo has more than 1 TV.

I dont miss PPV or VOD at all, Series 3 is fine, although tru2way does have it advantage, like the possiblily of not having to use cable boxes.

VOD and PPV, at least with TWC here in NYC, is all SD. Seeing what you want, when you want in HD requires recording the HD broadcast so I don't miss VOD. PPV is fairly well covered with Amazon (but Vudu is the way to go).

But I agree that a 2-way Tivo would be much better. At some point VOD and PPV will be HD and then I will want it. I'm also glad to have VOD on an SD TV. I have a series 2 Tivo with lifetime service but I won't buy a lifetime for my Tivo HD. I'm just looking to amortize the cost of the Tivo with the $10 per month I now save.

Has anyone heard any news on this lately? I am at the breaking point with the cable DVR and want to buy a TIVO, but not if something new is coming in the next six months.

Thanks,

Eric

Nothing new is coming in the next six months. Sad, really. We need some competition in the cable DVR space and I thought tru2way would trigger it, but I guess not (so far).
Get a Tivo HD and put a bigger drive in it. They just announced an agreement to get cable VOD (OnDemand) on it later this year, so that removes the biggest objection that folks have about it.

My next objection besides lack of VOD? Tivo's stretched not made for HD user interface. The UI's practically been the same since Tivo's inception.

My next objection besides lack of VOD? Tivo's stretched not made for HD user interface. The UI's practically been the same since Tivo's inception.

And yet, it still manages to be better than (almost) everything else out there. Also, keep in mind that there has been a *lot* of tweaking done to the TiVo UI since the inception of TiVo; completely retooling the user interface would probably require throwing out or serious refactoring of major chunks of the UI. I'd rather not rush them into that.

And yet, it still manages to be better than (almost) everything else out there. Also, keep in mind that there has been a *lot* of tweaking done to the TiVo UI since the inception of TiVo; completely retooling the user interface would probably require throwing out or serious refactoring of major chunks of the UI. I'd rather not rush them into that.

Thats debatable, seriously the menu transitions are horrible, WMC is much better. There you go ... Something better..

The Tivo UI is old and tired and most importantly, does not take advantage of HD screens. Is it functional? Yes. But it's a mess and a waste of screen real estate.

Has anyone heard any news on this lately? I am at the breaking point with the cable DVR and want to buy a TIVO, but not if something new is coming in the next six months.

Thanks,

Eric

Ditto.

At $16 a month for a cable DVR; the Tivo HD NOW CAN BE CHEAPER.

Agreed as well!!! I'm paying $15 for my HD DVR and $14 for a regular HD box from Comcast in Boston. I am damn close to getting a Tivo with 2 cable cards and running some streaming AV to my second TV. $30 per month for box rentals! Bah.

Agreed as well!!! I'm paying $15 for my HD DVR and $14 for a regular HD box from Comcast in Boston. I am damn close to getting a Tivo with 2 cable cards and running some streaming AV to my second TV. $30 per month for box rentals! Bah.Note only the discontinued TiVo Series3 model requires two CableCards.

The current TivoHD model only requires one CableCard (M-CARD type) to support both tuners with digital cable. I mention this because Comcast provides one CableCard for free as part of digital cable -- but that's all you need.

Got my TiVo HD XL up and running on Monday with a M-card.

Picture is better and I think even the sound is a little better.

MUCH more intelligent recording technology.

I'm happy. And I haven't really used the more advanced stuff yet.
There's a lot of great functionality I haven't even tried yet, all gravy!!!

Suffered with Comcast MOTO DVR's for 4 years, wish I would've changed as soon as the TiVo HD came out.

Some news popped up yesterday on a Tivo survey that suggest a new box/TVS4 is in the works.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/20/tivo-survey-hints-at-new-name-direction-for-series4-boxes/

It's good to see some sign of life but they had better be more than just working on a new product. They need to be putting the finishing trim, cleaning the windows, and getting ready to roll it into the showroom! Following some other forums, a lot of people have been unhappy with the stability of Series3 (inc. TiVo HD) players using both cable cards and the tuning adapter to work with switched digital video. If tru2way doesn't get on the scene soon for both the cable operators and TiVo you are likely to see some serious erosion in new customer numbers.

I've been very happy using a Series 2 player (and a Series 1 going back to 2001), but I'm very hesitant to go to the ToVo HD with all the bolt on parts needed to view the local channel lineup. When I do finally go to HD at home (maybe, finally, this summer) I'm seriously considering going with a *GASP* cable company DVR until a Series4 with tru2way becomes available.

That's crazy talk.

the next generation Tivo only needs 4 things: two-way on demand ability
TRIPLE tuner
larger hard drive
faster processors


has anyone heard anything official?

the next generation Tivo only needs 4 things: two-way on demand ability
TRIPLE tuner
larger hard drive
faster processors


has anyone heard anything official?

Engadget just decided to do an intervention on TiVo. Hopefully TiVo reads and responds to it similar to when Palm responded to Engadget's suggestions. I really hate how non-fluid the TiVo interface is and how it hasn't changed much over the years. It really needs a window so you can continue watching TV while accessing the menus. But I pretty much agree with all of Engadget's recommendations.

Ten Years of TiVo: How Far We Haven't Come

We'll be totally honest here: we love TiVo. TiVo DVRs of every vintage are scattered throughout the Engadget editorial ranks, and Series3 units are our preferred hardware for HD Netflix streaming and Amazon's nascent HD Video on Demand service. And, well, using a TiVo is just fun in a way that no other DVR ever is -- those booping noises still provoke smiles all around.

But here's the thing: it's been ten years since TiVo first introduced the Philips-built HDR110 at NAB, and while the company's name has since become synonymous with time-shifted digital video recording, it's not because its products have achieved runaway success. In fact, it's the exact opposite: most consumers choose to get by with awful cable- or satellite-company DVRs, and TiVo's only just barely pulled a full year of profitability, two factors that have kept it firmly on deathwatch since 2005. Not only that, but while TiVo might have pushed the DVR into the mainstream, it hasn't meaningfully innovated since -- apart from HD output and the aforementioned streaming services, you'd be hard-pressed to tell a brand-new TiVo HD from an original unit by using it for five minutes. Worse, the entire DVR category's essentially remained stagnant as well -- one study found that the average DVR-enabled family records just 15-20 percent of the TV they watch, a startlingly low number by any measure.

So look -- it's not working, guys. We're happy that Comcast is now offering the TiVo interface in certain markets as a paid option, and we'll be pleased as punch when those long-promised new DirecTiVo units ship out, but the simple fact of the matter is TiVo can't continue to rely on the same strategies and ideas that haven't worked for the past ten years. What TiVo needs is a new plan -- and we've got five simple ideas that might help kickstart the company and the DVR market for the next ten years. Read on for more.


1. Embrace the computer within

Sure, the DVR is supposed to be an "appliance." And there's nothing wrong with letting things operate that way in general. But in reality you're shipping a custom Linux rig with dedicated HD video hardware, Ethernet, and external storage support -- the possibilities are endless. It's great that you've built a YouTube implementation, but a basic browser with Flash video support should have been part of the stock install for years now. The DVR that can also play Hulu without any hassles -- instant hit product. Local network streaming? It's great that it's partially supported, but half-assed codec support doesn't cut it anymore. Make your box play everything, no questions asked. People with TiVos shouldn't be tempted by a media streamer ever again.

The same goes for getting video out and onto portable devices -- you're being totally shown up by open-source projects like iTiVo and pyTiVo. TiVo Desktop Plus shouldn't be an afterthought your customers have to pay extra for -- it should be the defining feature of your product. Record a show, have it on your phone the next morning to watch on the train -- no cable company can compete with that. Mix in a little Slingbox-like placeshifting and gadget nerds will be beating down your door with $12.95 monthly subscription fees.

Can't do it, the networks and cable companies won't let us? Stop crying and point them in the direction of any decent Media Center PC, which can do all of this and more, and even do it with your interface. No excuses.

2. Put a little QWERTY in the peanut

The peanut remote is arguably one of the most iconic pieces of home theater gear ever designed. It feels great in the hand, it's intuitive, and it's powerful. It's also incredibly obsolete. What are all those number buttons for? Why is there still a switch to select between two DVRs? Why can't it control other A/V gear as well as a $25 universal can? Why is 30-second skip still a hidden command? Most importantly, why is using it to enter in search terms such a terrible pain in the ass?

If you're going to be serious about video on demand and your new search interface, you've got to make text input way easier. This isn't rocket science -- just take a cue from the smartphone market and build a slider QWERTY peanut with a friendly, stripped-down top layout. Not only will you have once again set a standard in remote design for a decade, you'll have made YouTube on TiVo something other than a painful way to torture party guests with bloopy sounds.

3. Update the interface

Speaking of the interface, it's time to rethink things. A lot's happened in the ten years since we first saw the TiVo interface, and it hasn't kept up. That new search interface is a start, but it's time to let go of the SD customer and start seriously designing for the 16:9 HD display. You've got a lot more room to work with now, so give us the data we crave, like storage meters, PIP, and network-enabled information overlays. Hell, go crazy and toss in a third-party widget API, like Yahoo's doing. Fix the simple stuff, too: there shouldn't be any jaggies. Reordering the Season Pass priority list should happen seamlessly in the background instead of locking the user out for an indeterminate period of time. Switching between the "native" TiVo interface and things like Netflix and HMO apps shouldn't be so jarring and involve obvious resolution changes.

Just being slightly better than the cable company's garbage won't cut it for much longer -- again, the Media Center PC kicks your ass right now, and the high-end customer on which you're currently relying is going to figure that out soon.

4. Ship the Series4 with tru2way support as fast as you can

Yes, we're telling you to add in a lot of features, but time is of the essence, and the next generation of TiVo hardware with tru2way support needs to hit shelves soon. The single biggest reason people don't switch to TiVo is the lack of cable company on demand and pay-per-view content, and tru2way will put an end to it. Sure, the interface might be out of your hands and largely sucky, but hey, it'll still be there. Panasonic already has tru2way hardware on the market and the system is live in a few cities with major rollouts planned for July 1 -- so what's the holdup here?

Oh -- and just call it the Series4, okay? Trust us.

5. Cajole, convince and inform your audience with advertising

Everyone -- everyone! -- says they're going to "TiVo" a show. But they don't actually know what a TiVo is, and you're not telling them. We sort of get why you wouldn't spend a ton on advertising right now -- the economy's in a hole and your offering isn't necessarily $300 and $12.95 a month better than the cable company -- but you need to invest heavily in explaining to people why your next product is going to change the way they consume media. Show them the difference between a DVR that works almost perfectly and the crap they're stuck with now. Hold their hand during the inevitably bad CableCARD installation. Offer lifetime service plans again. In short, give your customers a reason to buy into your brand and correct people who say they have "a TiVo" when they mean a generic DVR. It won't be easy, but it's doable -- you just need a product that deserves the effort.

Wrap-up

Look -- none of these ideas are guaranteed to work. Maybe the surest path to profitability is indeed selling software to cable and satellite companies. Maybe Microsoft will eat the entire DVR market for lunch with a combination of Media Center, Windows Home Server and the Xbox 360. It's damn well going to try. But we'd bet the vast majority of consumers will still be puttering along recording just 15-20 percent of their media on crap DVRs until they have a compelling reason to switch to something better. That's a huge opportunity waiting to be seized, but it's not going to sit there forever -- the TiVo brand might give you an advantage to start, but unless you make some serious moves, next-gen devices like the EchoStar SlingLoaded T2200S are going to snatch it out from under you. The next ten years starts now -- we'll be watching.

Engadget: Ten Years of TiVo: How Far We Haven't Come (http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/ten-years-of-tivo-how-far-we-havent-come/)

It's good to see some sign of life but they had better be more than just working on a new product. They need to be putting the finishing trim, cleaning the windows, and getting ready to roll it into the showroom! Following some other forums, a lot of people have been unhappy with the stability of Series3 (inc. TiVo HD) players using both cable cards and the tuning adapter to work with switched digital video. If tru2way doesn't get on the scene soon for both the cable operators and TiVo you are likely to see some serious erosion in new customer numbers.

I've been very happy using a Series 2 player (and a Series 1 going back to 2001), but I'm very hesitant to go to the ToVo HD with all the bolt on parts needed to view the local channel lineup. When I do finally go to HD at home (maybe, finally, this summer) I'm seriously considering going with a *GASP* cable company DVR until a Series4 with tru2way becomes available.

I just got off the cable DVR to the TiVo HD you're complaining about - good luck to you sir. I suffered 4 years with that crap from cable.

SDV - everyone worries about it and few have it. Those that REALLY do, know the tuning resolvers work fine and are free from the cable company. DONE.

I've noticed MOST people who find "excuses" against TiVo either - never had a TiVo OR never have had a cable DVR.

I'VE HAD BOTH - No question - TiVo is vastly superior -- PERIOD.

Maybe some TiVo people need to rent a cable DVR for a while to remind them WHY they have a TiVo to begin with.

any news?

any news?
No news. The TivoHD was released in the July/August timeframe, so that's probably a good bet for the next model or a refresh of the existing model, if there is one this year. In the past, TiVo used early adopters to iron out any remaining kinks before the holiday season.

I'm hoping we don't see a new model this summer, because that will mean that TiVo opted for the BCM7400 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7400-PB08-R.pdf)/BCM7405 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7405-PB04-R.pdf) (available today) rather than wait for the next-generation BCM7410 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7410-PB01-R.pdf) CPU. I think the BCM7410 will be worth the wait, but it won't ship in quantity until the second half of this year.

For comparison purposes, here's the TivoHD's CPU (http://ja.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf).

thanks bfd :)

Tivo PLEEEEEAAASE have an on-off switch on the series 4 remote! I mean come on! Going through menus to turn it off? I love my TivoHD, I can turn it on with the remote...but cant turn it off the same way? What is the logic in that?

I think the BCM7400/BCM7405 is in the Motorola DCX set top box. Wow, Motorola is always one step behind!

Tivo PLEEEEEAAASE have an on-off switch on the series 4 remote! I mean come on! Going through menus to turn it off? I love my TivoHD, I can turn it on with the remote...but cant turn it off the same way? What is the logic in that?

I understand the logic - it's supposed to be left on all the time - if it had a power button dumb people would just turn it off when they weren't watching it. My thing is, there should be a hard on/off switch so you don't have to unplug it, on the side or something. Should be used sparingly only when the system is unresponsive, because you shouldn't be hard stopping the drive arm often.

Tivo PLEEEEEAAASE have an on-off switch on the series 4 remote! I mean come on! Going through menus to turn it off? I love my TivoHD, I can turn it on with the remote...but cant turn it off the same way? What is the logic in that?

There's no "off" switch because there's no logical reason to have one. Turning it off would only make sense if there was something *to* turn off. The drive, the CPU, the memory, the tuners, all that stays on all the time. The only thing that gets turned off when you put the TiVo into standby mode is the video output. Everything else stays on 24x7. Look at the Motorola DVRs - their "off" mode only causes trouble (it puts itself into "mute" mode when it turns on to record something, then sometimes forgets to unmute). So what's the point of having an off switch?

[QUOTE] Turning it off would only make sense if there was something *to* turn off. The drive, the CPU, the memory, the tuners, all that stays on all the time.

2 statements and both condradicted each other. Why would the drive, the CPU, the memory and the tuners NEED to stay lit up 24/7? Thats like leaving your PC turned on 24/7 365 days/yr.

The only thing that gets turned off when you put the TiVo into standby mode is the video output.

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

2 statements and both condradicted each other. Why would the drive, the CPU, the memory and the tuners NEED to stay lit up 24/7? Thats like leaving your PC turned on 24/7 365 days/yr.

Because it needs to be able to record any time? Mine is always recording something, whether it's a scheduled recording, or a suggestion recording. Also, even when it's not recording, both tuners have live buffers spooled out to disk. So they're always on because it's always recording. Literally, always.

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

I didn't design the TiVo, so I don't know. Really the only thing you get out of it with the Series3/HD units is that EAS notices don't preempt the tuners while it's in standby mode. Otherwise, everything else remains on. I've never bothered putting mine into standby mode; there's just no need.

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

Some people watch their power like a hawk - i'll be the video output uses up energy that isn't necessary, so the option is there.

Some people watch their power like a hawk - i'll be the video output uses up energy that isn't necessary, so the option is there.

The MPEG decoder and video encoder stages aren't major power consumers though - the CPU, disk, and other subsystems which must remain on 24x7 are. As others have said many, many times before, if you're concerned about power consumption, there are other, more worthwhile targets to focus attention on in your home than your TiVo - the power supply only pulls like 50 or 60 watts. If you have have a few incandescent bulbs in your house that you use regularly, that's consuming more power than your TiVo - never mind your stove, microwave, water heater, washer, dryer, garage door opener, etc.

Could also be that someone has an HDMI switch that is automatic, and if it's receiving a signal it switches, so leaving the output on could screw with that. who knows.

[QUOTE=demonfoo;16488952]Because it needs to be able to record any time? Mine is always recording something, whether it's a scheduled recording, or a suggestion recording. Also, even when it's not recording, both tuners have live buffers spooled out to disk. So they're always on because it's always recording. Literally, always.

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing. I also was constantly recording something...daytime or middle on the night. Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing.

So then, its "off" switch did the same thing that "standby" mode does on the TiVo, most likely - i.e., shut off the video output stage, and left everything else running. No power saving to speak of. I bet if you put it on an ammeter, you'd be lucky to see the power draw drop by 1 watt when you turned it "off".

Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.

It's fine. TiVo doesn't have an "off" switch because, as I said, it doesn't buy you anything. No power saving. So acknowledging reality, it's just "on" all the time. All the power switch on the HR2x DVRs does, then, is give you the warm fuzzies of having a power switch - it doesn't really do anything. Which is fine, but the lack of one isn't hurting you either. Plus it simplifies the software and hardware implementation.

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing. I also was constantly recording something...daytime or middle on the night. Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.The HR2x are just like the TiVo. The power button just turns off the video output. The HR20 uses ~45 watts when "on" and ~43 watts when "off." The TivoHD uses ~34 watts when "on" and ~32 watts when in "standby." The TiVo Series3 uses about five watts more.

The current Broadcom DVR CPUs used in TiVo, Dish Network, and DirecTV DVRs don't have much in the way of power management features. In January, Broadcom announced a next-generation DVR CPU with power management, but it won't ship until the second half of this year.

The HR2x are just like the TiVo. The power button just turns off the video output. The HR20 uses ~45 watts when "on" and ~43 watts when "off." The TivoHD uses ~34 watts when "on" and ~32 watts when in "standby." The TiVo Series3 uses about five watts more.

The current Broadcom DVR CPUs used in TiVo, Dish Network, and DirecTV DVRs don't have much in the way of power management features. In January, Broadcom announced a next-generation DVR CPU with power management, but it won't ship until the second half of this year.

Well I didnt really mean to make my OP sound like I was concerned about power consumption. I guess what I illuded to(and I should have made it clear), was more a concern for the hard drive. Would it in any way shape or form shorten the lifespan of my hard drive if left on constantly? But if it only pertains to the video output, then I guess that answered my question. Thanks.

Well I didnt really mean to make my OP sound like I was concerned about power consumption. I guess what I illuded to(and I should have made it clear), was more a concern for the hard drive. Would it in any way shape or form shorten the lifespan of my hard drive if left on constantly? But if it only pertains to the video output, then I guess that answered my question. Thanks.

Probably the opposite actually. Leaving hard drives on actually results in less wear and tear then shutting them down and spinning them back up.

I would love the discussion move away from the 10 watts we all might save with better power management on the TiVo and more pressing concerns, such as whether or not TiVo actually delivers a new product this year.

need more info.....

The TivoHD was released in the July/August timeframe, so that's probably a good bet for the next model or a refresh of the existing model, if there is one this year.
I looked up the least two Tivo DVR release dates:

Tivo HD - 24 July 07.
Tivo HD XL - 4 Sept. 08.

So, it looks I will be waiting 1.5 - 3 mos. to see what Tivo has to offer.;):)

the HD XL wasn't even a new model really, just a bigger hard drive.

Where's S4?

There might not be one. There is speculation that Tivo could drop their direct to consumer model for equipment in the next year or two (continuing of course to service the ones that are out there) and instead rely on cable company, satellite company and other contracts (Best Buy branded units) to make their dough.

Which would really really suck if true.

There is speculationWhere?

Where?Source (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16956737&postcount=69).

;)

You guys are pretty gosh darn hilarious.

There have been a series of articles on Engadget, Gizmodo and some interesting commentary from David Zatz about what direction TiVo might go next.

It's not a sure thing that there WILL be a Series 4 Tivo, but I hope there will be. The big challenge for Tivo at this point is that they are seriously needing major updates such as Tru-2-Way functionality so that cable junkies can get On Demand and PPV services, along with update to a true HD interface that makes use of the larger amount of real estate available on new HD televisions (the current HD Tivo display is just a stretched SD resolution menu that fills up the HD space).

TiVo has a lot on their plate. I hope they take the wins they've seen in the courts and deliver us an outstanding Series 4 box with new features (place shifting, ala Sling box), etc.

Time will tell, but historically they've announced their products between August and September, so if we don't hear something in the next month or two it is extremely unlikely that we will see a product update this year.

Redoing the interface could be done with current hardware (they do it now with the new Tivo Search), and they are tackling the VOD/PPV problem with the Seachange announcement (http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2009/pr2009-03-02b.html). Sometime later this year, the existing S3 Tivos on some of the big cable systems may be able to get OnDemand. I don't want tru2way if it means that big cableCos control the interface.

Once they add OnDemand, there's not much missing other than more internet options, which they could add at any time. But newer/faster hardware is always good.

They really do need new hardware for the new interface. The new Tivo Search looks great, but it's slower than molasses.

Transfer speeds are still slow. I've got two Tivo HD units and over the 100MB LAN it still takes over an hour to transfer an HD show.

They should put in a faster processor, built in gigabit ethernet, and definitely overhaul the interface.

The On Demand stuff will probably be sand boxed to be a different part of the TiVo experience so that you aren't forced to look at that crap for regular guide viewing.

It still remains to be seen if they will launch Series-4 this year. I am suspicious that it won't be till next year, if it even happens.

The MPEG decoder and video encoder stages aren't major power consumers though - the CPU, disk, and other subsystems which must remain on 24x7 are. .... snip

I'm sorry but this simply is not true at all. I still have my circa 2004 panasonic dvd recorder (E95H) - a device which is not matched in ease of use and functionality by any current dvr I've seen, including a tivo - and this machine was left off all the time. It has a timer that will fire up the encoder, tuner, and hard drive about 1 minute before a scheduled recording, it would record, and then go back to sleep. It would wake up to get guide info, then go back to sleep. It has it's downfalls, but there's no better SD DVR. Too bad an HD version of this is not available.

Edit: I'm really surprised to read that the tivo uses 50 to 60 watts - the directv HR21 used 35 watts (off) or 37 watts (on) - yeah, funny, huh? what's the point of having it off?

I'm a new tivo user, and fios tv user. I really think fios tv is a great service - better PQ than D*, in some cases a lot better, and better equipment too - definitely a lot better equipment. In fact, I like the fios tv interface better than the tivo interface. I really hate the absurdly small tivo hard drive in my tivo HD and the ability to transfer programs to the computer is awesome - IN THEORY. In practice, a transfer rate of 3 GB per hour is just embarrasingly silly. What a joke. This is a feature? Combined with the paltry storage space, the tivo hd is a marginal to poor value. It's the same monthly cost as the fios dvr, but you pay an extra $300 up front, and for that what do you get? Downloading movies from amazon? internet access? I'm not a fan - because this is a tv device. And it doesnt offer VOD from Verizon, which, btw, is actually excellent.

So, my advice to tivo is to get the tivo up to date. The hard drive is just a joke in 2009. The processor needs to handle higher network transfer rates. Then this might be a more compelling device. Even with another $50 increase in price, the value proposition would be a lot better. Honestly, I am very disappointed by the tivo - I was expecting to be blown away by its features and eas of use - but its not possible to get past what a pain in the ass it is to actually use the dvr.

As it is, honestly, I am really thinking about returning my tivo because it doesn't offer value for my money. I think I am better off seeing if the next tivo is more valuable. I hope so, because as poor as the HR21 is, it is a better dvr than the tivo, which can hold no more than about 5 movies. My 6 year old dvr holds a good 30 (not HD).

Bring the tivo into the latter half of the decade and it will be popular again. Right now, just about any TV provider offers a more useful (if less usable) dvr.

Edit: I'm really surprised to read that the tivo uses 50 to 60 watts - the directv HR21 used 35 watts (off) or 37 watts (on) - yeah, funny, huh? what's the point of having it off?I'm not sure where you read that about the TivoHD, but it's not true. Kill-a-watt reports my 1TB TivoHD at 34-35 watts while recording two HD channels.

One would expect the HR21 and TivoHD to be fairly similar in power consumption, because the hardware is so similar (same processor, memory, etc).

In practice, a transfer rate of 3 GB per hour is just embarrasingly silly. What a joke. This is a feature?How long have you had the TiVo? After you've got the 11.0d software and your TiVo is done indexing the guide data, you should see 1.5-2.0x that on a regular basis. Indexing takes 48-72 hours. Everything is slower until you've had the 11.0 software for 48-72 hours.

I don't agree that transfers are useless. That might be a valid argument if you had to manually transfer one program at a time, but you don't. Most of the TiVo download programs allow both queuing and autotransfer capability. There's no need to sit and wait for each download to complete.

Of course we'd all like to see faster transfers. Faster DVR processors from Broadcom started shipping in quantity this year (found only in the Moxi and Dish Network ViP722K so far), and Broadcom announced even faster CPUs for next year. With the latest generation DVR processor, TiVo could probably double network throughput. Alternatively, TiVo could wait six months for the next generation and improve throughput by 3-4x.

Combined with the paltry storage space, the tivo hd is a marginal to poor value.Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.

High-definition DVR technology is still expensive. You can't directly compare the cost of a DirecTV HR21 DVR because that (a) product is subsidized with a two year contract renewal, (b) it doesn't have OTA tuners, (c) it doesn't have analog tuners, and (d) it doesn't support CableCards. Obviously, it doesn't work with FiOS.

I do agree that the base TivoHD should really have 320GB and not 160GB. But it's not easy to simply upgrade capacity and keep cost the same, because then the old boxes won't sell. TiVo will have to do that eventually, but it probably doesn't make a whole lot of fiscal sense until a new design is ready. To compensate, TiVo supports external drives, and they make it easy enough to upgrade the internal drive. You can upgrade any TiVo with a 1TB drive upgrade for $90-$100, if you're willing to void the warranty.

They really do need new hardware for the new interface. The new Tivo Search looks great, but it's slower than molasses.

Transfer speeds are still slow. I've got two Tivo HD units and over the 100MB LAN it still takes over an hour to transfer an HD show.

They should put in a faster processor, built in gigabit ethernet
I don't think there is any point to gigabit ethernet. No announced or shipping DVR CPU can take full advantage of 100Mbps ethernet, let alone give you gigabit speeds. With the technology shipping today (i.e. the latest Broadcom DVR CPU), a new TiVo might provide a bit over 2x existing throughput. That's a significant improvement over what we have now, but it's still within the confines of 100Mbps ethernet.

Tivo's Broadcom CPU = 450 DMIPS
latest Broadcom CPU = 1000 DMIPS
next-gen Broadcom CPU = 1500 DMIPS

and definitely overhaul the interface.Moving forward, I don't think it makes much sense for TiVo to maintain separate software and interfaces for their DirecTV, Comcast, OCAP, and standalone boxes. That's not an effective use of resources. There needs to be a single codebase that can be [mostly] shared across all platforms.

I suspect that is what we will get with a next-generation TiVo. I think it very likely that the next-generation DirecTiVo will feature a 16:9 UI when it ships in early 2010 on DirecTV's next-generation hardware platform, and I would expect any future standalone TiVo to feature a very similar (if not identical) UI.

I'm not sure where you read that about the TivoHD, but it's not true. Kill-a-watt reports my 1TB TivoHD at 34-35 watts while recording two HD channels.

One would expect the HR21 and TivoHD to be fairly similar in power consumption, because the hardware is so similar (same processor, memory, etc).

How long have you had the TiVo? After you've got the 11.0d software and your TiVo is done indexing the guide data, you should see 1.5-2.0x that on a regular basis. Indexing takes 48-72 hours. Everything is slower until you've had the 11.0 software for 48-72 hours.

I don't agree that transfers are useless. That might be a valid argument if you had to manually transfer one program at a time, but you don't. Most of the TiVo download programs allow both queuing and autotransfer capability. There's no need to sit and wait for each download to complete.

Of course we'd all like to see faster transfers. Faster DVR processors from Broadcom started shipping in quantity this year (found only in the Moxi and Dish Network ViP722K so far), and Broadcom announced even faster CPUs for next year. With the latest generation DVR processor, TiVo could probably double network throughput. Alternatively, TiVo could wait six months for the next generation and improve throughput by 3-4x.

Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.

High-definition DVR technology is still expensive. You can't directly compare the cost of a DirecTV HR21 DVR because that (a) product is subsidized with a two year contract renewal, (b) it doesn't have OTA tuners, (c) it doesn't have analog tuners, and (d) it doesn't support CableCards. Obviously, it doesn't work with FiOS.

I do agree that the base TivoHD should really have 320GB and not 160GB. But it's not easy to simply upgrade capacity and keep the cost the same, because then the old boxes won't sell. To compensate, they support external drives, and they make it easy enough to upgrade the internal drive. You can purchase a 1TB drive upgrade for $90-$100, if you're willing to void the warranty.

I read the 50/60 watts right here on this thread; don't know and don't care; I thought the 35 watts of my HR21 was awful, the tivo is too.

I appreciate your point about the new software, but come on, 7 GB an hour is every bit as pathetic as 3 GB/hr. On a 100 Mbps network when I could have a 1000 MBps network. This is 90's technology, for chrissakes. There's just no defending that.

I can't get kmttg to auto download properly - I get partials. So, I have to cue them up. At least I can cue them up. But this service is not provided by tivo - it is essentially a hack. You can't defend this either. It simply is not part of the value package. There is the "ability" to transfer videos. It is slow and manual and not worth $200. This feature represents the sole advantage of the tivo HD over the fios DVR. And the fios dvr has a far better interface and is more usable. Tivo has a poor value proposition by comparison. The D* dvr is a far better dvr, but the interface stinks and is terribly slow. Now, if the tivo could use an actual, modern network instead of being limited to 10 Mbps and you could automate transfers, then yea, this is worth a significant part of my $200 (refurbd) or $300 (new).

Buy the tivo hd xl for $250 more than the HD and all I get is a 1 TB HD worth less than $100???? Come on, that's just stupid. Who gives a rip about THX?? I just want to watch the red sox with no commercials.

Talk about contracts with D* - so, the Tivo service has no contract? Come on. It's actually cheaper to have the D* dvr. The fios dvr is comparably priced. Until you factor in the tivo purchase price, and it looks to me like the tivo is actually a pretty poor value. I don't care about using the D* dvr with fios - the fios dvr beats tivo all by itself.

Saying that old boxes wont sell as an argument not to make a competitive product is an excellent strategy for eroding your new customer base. I have been dying to have this device and now that I have it, the circa 2006 hard drive very nearly has me sending it back, eliminating the main revenue stream to tivo - the subscription.

How smart is that? If you think it makes sense then you need to take a business class or two.

snip
Moving forward, I don't think it makes much sense for TiVo to maintain separate software and interfaces for their DirecTV, Comcast, OCAP, and standalone boxes. That's not an effective use of resources. There needs to be a single codebase that can be [mostly] shared across all platforms.
snip

Hold on there. As a firmly EX-D* customer I am warning you against this strategy. During my 1.5 years with D*, I had an HR21 dvr adn an H21 non-dvr. The latter box was nice for a while - fast and usable, the dvr just sucked - as long as 5 sec to change a channel or bring up the guide. At LEAST 3 sec. This is not acceptable. The non dvr HD box was fast - less than a second most of the time.

Then the software "upgrades" came. Hit and miss on the dvr- sometimes a marginal improvement, often and update eliminated a previous improvement.

But, the idiots at D* wanted the dvr and non-dvr boxes to have the same software. So, now, the non-dvr box is almost as slow as the DVR!!!!! IDIOTIC.

This is why I am no longer a D* customer - who wants to wait seconds to change the channel. Every time. Even when switching between the same two channels.

It is a bad idea, it makes every box as bad as the worst box, it doesnt bring out the best in each. It drives customers away.

Take a look at the fios HD box and the dvr. Sure, there are some issues, but these boxes operate the way you want a tv to operate - fast channel changes and guide performance. The D* equipment operates like an old computer with operating software written by an amateur.

Unfortunately, the tivo box is not a whole heck of a lot better.

snip
Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.


Actually, come to think of it, the only reason I even tried the tivo was because I could get the $200 refurbished box. $500 + $400 for the lifetime subscription (which, honestly, will be useful for 4 years if we're lucky - the box will need to be upgraded by then) is just too much. For this price it makes more sense to rent two dvrs from the provider. There's only so much value to a 1 TB disk. You can get one from newegg for less than $80. It's not worth $200 (or $300 in my case) above the cost of the (admittedly unusable) 160 GB disk.

I appreciate your point about the new software, but come on, 7 GB an hour is every bit as pathetic as 3 GB/hr. On a 100 Mbps network when I could have a 1000 MBps network. This is 90's technology, for chrissakes. There's just no defending that.I think you are confusing PC technology with DVR SoC technology. The TiVo had the latest DVR SoC technology when it shipped in 2007. TiVo could at least double network throughput with Broadcom's latest DVR SoCs, but the technology does not exist to produce a low-cost, dual-tuner HDTV DVR with PC-like network throughput.

If you want to buy your own dual-tuner CableCard PC, you can do that. But you won't be able to transfer your recordings or manipulate them. Microsoft currently uses DRM to tie recordings from cable channels to a single PC in an encrypted file. The best you can do is stream them to an authorized extender, like the Xbox360.

I can't get kmttg to auto download properly - I get partials. So, I have to cue them up. At least I can cue them up.You can't call it a hack when this is officially supported functionality. TiVo provides the same queuing and autotransfer functionality -- minus the ability to automatically decode and remove commercials -- with the free TiVo Desktop software.

TiVo Desktop will automatically re-transfer (or resume?) any queued recording that is interrupted. I don't think kmttg does that yet.

This feature represents the sole advantage of the tivo HD over the fios DVR. And the fios dvr has a far better interface and is more usable.I could not disagree more. It sounds like you haven't used the FiOS DVR, or haven't used it for long. I used the FiOS DVR for 18 months.

As a DVR, the FiOS' Motorola DVR is not in the same class with TiVo. The #1 job of a DVR is to reliably record programs. The TiVo does that as good or better than anyone. The FiOS DVR does not. The FiOS DVR is probably the most unreliable DVR offered by any major cable or satellite provider in the U.S.

The FiOS DVR software is only partly to blame. The main culprit is Verizon's choice of a cheaper guide data provider that does not consistently provide reliable guide information. New episodes are often flagged as repeats and repeats are flagged as new episodes. Sometimes the guide data is completely wrong and the information in the guide does not match up with what is on TV.

A few threads on the FiOS DVR:

Verizon Forums: Guide consistently WRONG!!! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&thread.id=1887&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)
Verizon Forums: Guide wrong and what isn't wrong is incomplete (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=643)
Verizon Forums: Verizon TV Guide questions (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=12784)
Verizon Forums: New to Fios - guide information making me crazy! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=9389)
Verizon Forums: Wrong Guide Alert Thread!! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=5823)
Verizon Forums: Guide Feedback (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&thread.id=177&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)

DSLReports: When do we get rid of FYI for the guide? (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21256191-When-do-we-get-rid-of-FYI-for-the-guide)
DSLReports: Fios Guide Content Bad (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19765987-Fios-Guide-Content-Bad)
DSLReports: Ultimate Wrong Guide Data (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21111553-Ultimate-Wrong-Guide-Data)
DSLReports: A few mild rants (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21676591-A-few-mild-rants)
DSLReports: Any software updates planned for HDDVR? (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22820591-Any-software-updates-planned-for-HDDVR)
DSLReports: USA HD -- Burn Notice and Royal Pains (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22610809-USA-HD-Burn-Notice-and-Royal-Pains)

The FiOS STB/DVR has a "pretty" color-coded guide with nice graphics. If you only take the program guide interface and ignore everything else, including the program guide data, then the FiOS DVR certainly looks like the better product. But I don't think any responsible comparison can do that.

Most FiOS users buy a TivoHD not for its ability to download programs, but for its ability to reliably record. After that, the top reason has got to be the support for drive expansion. Many may not be happy with the stock capacity on the standard TivoHD, but at least it allows internal and external capacity expansion; the FiOS DVR allows neither. My reasons for upgrading from the FiOS DVR:

Reliability. The FIOS DVR just isn't reliable with FYI Television as the guide data provider.


No support for internal or external drive expansion. Limited to ~20 HD hours.


Does not keep track of programs you've recorded, so it re-records episodes of cable programs after you delete them.


No wishlists or any form of autorecord based on search, so you can't set the FiOS DVR to automatically record all pro or college sports with your favorite teams; FiOS DVR can't be set to automatically record new series pilots;


Less responsive with trickplay functions like 30sec skip; inferior autocorrection; no 15min skip;


No ability to download or transfer recordings from cable channels to your computer for viewing, burning to DVD / Blu-ray, or transfer to a portable device.

I like the ability to download recordings, but that was last on my list of reasons.

I prefer the TiVo's interface for watching recording programs. I open the NPL with a single-click on my remote (see the FAQ) and all my recordings are folderized by alphabet or date, which I can change with a single-click. Inside each folder is a list of episode titles with their recorded date. I can single-click play and single-click delete both individual recordings and entire folders of recordings.

For me, the four most important features of a DVR are reliability, reliability, reliability, and ease of skipping commercials. I rarely watch liveTV, so a pretty EPG with fancy graphics is not important to me. I expect to come home, eat dinner, sit down in front of my TV, and watch the recording of my favorite series from the night before. I do not tolerate missed or incomplete recordings.

My main desire for a new TiVo is a 16:9 UI that shows more program information on the screen in the NPL, EPG, and search. I would like scheduled record indicators in the EPG (seen in this screenshot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2126646108/in/set-72157603515035363/)) and a further breakdown of the To Do List (seen in this screenshot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2125870635/in/set-72157603515035363/)), except in a 16:9 UI. I'd like high-throughput streaming for both MRV and PC video playback so I can remotely FF through recordings and videos without waiting for a transfer. I'd like DLNA support and native playback of more PC video formats at higher bitrates.

I'm glad that BFDTV brought this up. Bag on TiVo as much as you want, but it will reliably record your programs. I've owned a large variety of DVRs and only the Tivo units have reliably recorded my programs with almost zero problems.

The TiVo will almost always pick up guide changes, will extend recording time on its own in some cases, and never ever locks up.

It might be slow and missing some other features but the reliable recording along with the nice thumbs-up/thumbs-down (something I never thought I would use but rely on completely now to find programs I like during summer months when we aren't recording anything), transfers between machines, etc, makes the TiVo the best DVR out there.

It just needs an updated, FASTER, search/index system (the new beta search is a good start), HD menus (so we can watch a show while using the TiVo menu, in other words take advantage of HD real estate) and Tru-2-Way functionality.

Tru-2-Way is critical for TiVo, as the loss of On Demand and PPV is one of the primary reasons people will NOT buy a TiVo unit. We are paying for On Demand whether we are using it or not, so it would be awfully nice to be able to view the programming on TiVo boxes.

As mentioned above, tru2way is NOT critical for Tivo if it can handle VOD/PPV on the big providers via the new interface to Seachange. I agree that speed and a new UI would be nice, but I don't think tru2way is critical if they can properly implement VOD without it. And I agree 100% with bfdtv, reliability and ease of commercial skip are the biggies for me, and Tivo handles this well.

Good points, but I had good luck with my D* box to reliably record programs. And my problem is that to get a box that will reliably record less than 10 movies on it, the tivo is very expensive. Honestly, the D* dvr was actually better as a dvr if you can put up with the unbelievably slow interface.

Speaking of accurate program data, I tried to record a movie on my new tivo on sunday. I had to download it to make room for another recording today, so I did. I get the file and look at it, and the end of the movie was after the end of the recording. So much for reliably recording the whole program. On another movie, I could only download the first 25 min of it. Great, thanks a lot. After multiple attempts is simply will not work. Regarding transfer speeds, fine, you say I can only expect so much, but the fact is that tivo offers program transfer as a "feature" but the implementation is so poor that I am saying it is not a very valuable feature. For the next box, it would be a lot more compelling if we weren't stuck with 1999 networking speeds. Who is impressed with 6 or 7 GB per hour transfer speeds?? Meh.

So, tivo, like any other dvr, is not perfect. And it is more expensive than anything except the Dish dvrs, which you also have to buy up front (my friend is stuck with Dish because of his dvr investment, which sucks because fios is so much better).

Sounds like you think I am a troll, fine. I am a new user and am really trying to like this very expensive box, but really it does not live up to the hype surrounding it. Is it the best dvr to be had? Well, maybe, but if it is, it is by a slim margin for sure. I'm getting the fios dvr to compare head to head against my tivo for a couple of weeks, and then I'll decide. I'd really prefer to own my equipment, but if there's no significant advantage to the tivo, I won't keep it. I'm also just assuming that a better value tivo box is coming up in the next year.

Keep in mind too that unlike many here, I really do not like the tivo interface at all. I really like the fios interface - it is by far the best that I've seen (among Charter, D*, E*, fios, and tivo). The tivo interface is not great, and until you are used to it there are a lot of counter-intuitive things.

I thought this thread was about what should be in the new tivo box, and I've been saying what I think that should be - I don't need to read a defense of the current box and its obvious and occasionally severe limitations.

I thought this thread was about what should be in the new tivo box, and I've been saying what I think that should beMany TiVo users spend 80+% to 90+% of their time watching recorded or time-delayed programs, and if that doesn't describe you, then there may be a better box for your needs. TiVo clearly did not put the same emphasis on channel-surfing and guide-surfing that Moxi and FiOS did with their products. I suspect you'll never be satisfied with the current TiVo if you spend much of your time watching live TV. I do expect TiVo to significantly improve the guide-surfing experience with their next box (16:9 version of Comcast TiVo UI (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2126646108/in/set-72157603515035363/)?), but I suspect there will always be better products for that.

If you like to channel surf and/or watch a lot of liveTV, then you should take a look at Moxi. Moxi uses a newer CPU to provide a 16:9 GUI with nicer graphics than the Verizon box, and it has accurate / reliable guide data like the TiVo. Moxi, unlike the TiVo, made liveTV viewing and channel surfing a top priority in their design, with an excellent mini-guide, all sorts of filters, and a longer live buffer. The Moxi costs $799, but that includes a 500GB drive and lifetime subscription. It is a cable-only box, but that doesn't sound like an issue for you.

Moxi won't allow you to transfer recordings, but it sounds like you don't care for that feature unless it can be done at PC-like "speed." That's not going to happen anytime soon with a cable DVR (for reasons described above), although I fully expect the next TiVo to significantly improve throughput.

Fyi: I see you use FiOS. The original TiVo software exhibited some signal compatibility issues with FiOS, whose signal sometimes differed enough from cable companies to cause problems. This resulted in large error counts that cause pixelization; these error counts could also cause transfers to terminate prematurely. Most were able to eliminate these errors with attenuation, but the problem wasn't addressed by TiVo until the 11.0d software. Hence, you could have transfer problems with some recordings made prior to 11.0d.

Good points, but I had good luck with my D* box to reliably record programs. And my problem is that to get a box that will reliably record less than 10 movies on it, the tivo is very expensive. Honestly, the D* dvr was actually better as a dvr if you can put up with the unbelievably slow interface.

Speaking of accurate program data, I tried to record a movie on my new tivo on sunday. I had to download it to make room for another recording today, so I did. I get the file and look at it, and the end of the movie was after the end of the recording. So much for reliably recording the whole program. On another movie, I could only download the first 25 min of it. Great, thanks a lot. After multiple attempts is simply will not work. Regarding transfer speeds, fine, you say I can only expect so much, but the fact is that tivo offers program transfer as a "feature" but the implementation is so poor that I am saying it is not a very valuable feature. For the next box, it would be a lot more compelling if we weren't stuck with 1999 networking speeds. Who is impressed with 6 or 7 GB per hour transfer speeds?? Meh.

So, tivo, like any other dvr, is not perfect. And it is more expensive than anything except the Dish dvrs, which you also have to buy up front (my friend is stuck with Dish because of his dvr investment, which sucks because fios is so much better).

Sounds like you think I am a troll, fine. I am a new user and am really trying to like this very expensive box, but really it does not live up to the hype surrounding it. Is it the best dvr to be had? Well, maybe, but if it is, it is by a slim margin for sure. I'm getting the fios dvr to compare head to head against my tivo for a couple of weeks, and then I'll decide. I'd really prefer to own my equipment, but if there's no significant advantage to the tivo, I won't keep it. I'm also just assuming that a better value tivo box is coming up in the next year.

Keep in mind too that unlike many here, I really do not like the tivo interface at all. I really like the fios interface - it is by far the best that I've seen (among Charter, D*, E*, fios, and tivo). The tivo interface is not great, and until you are used to it there are a lot of counter-intuitive things.

I thought this thread was about what should be in the new tivo box, and I've been saying what I think that should be - I don't need to read a defense of the current box and its obvious and occasionally severe limitations.

This thread is for discussion of the next gen TiVo. Not your beefs about the current product.

For the record, it's trivial with Tivo to simply go in and tell it to pad an extra 10 minutes at the end (or beginning) of any program you record, something that's a PITA to do with most other DVRs.

TiVo is not the most expensive DVR option by a long shot. You buy the TiVo box for $299 and pay about the same for lifetime service. If you keep the box for 5 years your total monthly cost is $10 per month, which is less than what many crummy satellite and cable company DVRs get rented to you for.

You also get the benefit of numerous features that are available ONLY on the TiVo, such as Swivel Search, YouTube, Amazon.com downloads, room to room transfers, transfers to a computer, etc.

I'm really tired of having to defend TiVo to you. There are millions of very happy TiVo customers who will happily shell out MORE for the TiVo than for the Dish* box you like so much, and who are interested in what TiVo might bring out this year in the way of new hardware, and would like a place to discuss that free of your heckling.

Obviously TiVo is not for you, so please return it and continue your discussion about it in a different thread. You haven't even owned the box long enough to understand it's basic features and yet you are convinced you must rail on it to see what YOU want in the next version. Many of us have owned these boxes for years, many of us own multiple boxes or have gifted them to our friends and families (who love them).

So please don't try to lecture us on how inferior the product is. We know its strengths and weaknesses and still would take it over any other DVR solution available.

As mentioned above, tru2way is NOT critical for Tivo if it can handle VOD/PPV on the big providers via the new interface to Seachange. I agree that speed and a new UI would be nice, but I don't think tru2way is critical if they can properly implement VOD without it. And I agree 100% with bfdtv, reliability and ease of commercial skip are the biggies for me, and Tivo handles this well.

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.

Unless Seachange will also allow a vendor to plug in to the cable network without cable cards, etc, and unless it is going to be ready for lunch in the next 12 months, I still think that Tru-2-Way being in the next Tivo is assured.

+1

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.

Unless Seachange will also allow a vendor to plug in to the cable network without cable cards, etc, and unless it is going to be ready for lunch in the next 12 months, I still think that Tru-2-Way being in the next Tivo is assured.

Seachange is a VOD system provider for cable companies. All the announcement means is that they're coming up with a way for TiVo owners to watch VoD content from their existing provider using some new functionality specifically for the TiVos (since they don't have two-way communication features at present over the cable network). It is not going to eliminate CableCARDs (and neither will tru2way for that matter, they're here to stay for now). I don't really know what the timeframe is for availability, but hopefully it'll be within that sort of timeframe - it's just extending their existing system to leverage TiVo, possibly using the IP network as a replacement backchannel (I'm guessing here, I don't have any special knowledge of what they're doing).

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.
I put a link to the Tivo Seachange press release in my prior post (and google is your friend). I'm sorry that you didn't bother to read it.

Thanks for helping with the spoon-feeding, demonfoo.

I put a link to the Tivo Seachange press release in my prior post (and google is your friend). I'm sorry that you didn't bother to read it.

Thanks for helping with the spoon-feeding, demonfoo.

Let's spoon feed some back, eh?

By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly deploying TiVo set-top boxes that seamlessly integrate VOD in a single, intuitive TiVo interface,” said Tom Rogers, TiVo’s president and chief executive officer.

I'm pretty sure when I read this it indicates that Seachange is going to be for providers who are not pursuing a Tru2Way OCAP model. The problem is that most of the providers already ARE pursuing Tru2Way with OCAP. Comcast definitely is as they have launched 10 beta markets for Tru-2-Way and one of my neighbors has a Panasonic Plasma with Tru2Way.

Maybe Rogers and a few other carriers will be the only ones pursuing this?

TiVo has these "refurbished" DVR's they are selling;
https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do?type=renewed&WT.ac=tivohome_renewed_199_img&%2520WT.mc_id=tivohome_renewed_199

Other than over 2x difference in price, a slightly different remote and the larger HDD, what justfies the cost difference and what series are these?

TiVo has these "refirbused" DVR's they are selling;
https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do?type=renewed&WT.ac=tivohome_renewed_199_img&%2520WT.mc_id=tivohome_renewed_199

Other than over 2x difference in price, a slightly different remote and the larger HDD, what justfies the cost difference and what series are these?

You mean refurbished?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refurbishment_%28electronics%29

The units on the page you linked are mostly Tivo HD units which are SERIES 3 and have been out now for a couple of years (you can find tons and tons of info on them at the Series 3 forum http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=51).

I don't think we should spend time in this thread discussing the pros and cons of these units. This thread is for discussion of the as yet unreleased SERIES4 units.

TiVo has these "refirbused" DVR's they are selling;
https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do?type=renewed&WT.ac=tivohome_renewed_199_img&%2520WT.mc_id=tivohome_renewed_199

Other than over 2x difference in price, a slightly different remote and the larger HDD, what justfies the cost difference and what series are these?The TivoHD was released in July 2007. The TivoHD XL was released in September, 2008; it's the same hardware and software as the TivoHD, but includes a 1TB drive and a backlit remote. You only save $50 by buying refurbished, because Amazon.com sells both models (new) for $50 more.

Discussion/speculation in this thread surrounds a future model. Such a model is likely to include a newer, faster processor to accomodate a higher-resolution, more graphically rich UI, as well as higher throughput between TiVos and TiVo->PC.

Tivo's Broadcom CPU = 450 DMIPS
latest Broadcom CPU = 1000 DMIPS (found in Moxi, Dish ViP922, Motorola DCX)
next-gen Broadcom CPU = 1500 DMIPS

If TiVo elects to release a new model based on latest Broadcom CPU, we could see it between now and January. If they decide to wait for the next-generation, then it could be 6-12 months away. TiVo spent $121 million on DVR R&D in the past 24 months -- roughly 1/3 of all subscription revenue -- so they are clearly working on something.

The page didn't specify which series they were.
The faster processor will benefit exactly how/where?

(typo corrected)

The page didn't specify which series they were.
The faster processor will benefit exactly how/where?The current and next-generation Broadcom CPUs support quad-tuner designs. I'll be surprised if TiVo goes that route, because it is not yet possible to produce cost-effective design with 4x QAM/ATSC/NTSC tuners. I expect TiVo will use newer components to cut costs (and therefore price) on a dual-tuner unit. They might hit $199 MSRP for 320GB capacity if they are willing to take the same loss on the initial sale that they do with the existing box.

The most noticeable improvement on a "Series4" is likely to be a UI refresh. Like DirecTV's DVRs, the current TivoHD model uses a 4:3 SD interface scaled and stretched across a 16:9 HD background. User interface responsiveness is much improved since release (see HD video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1)), but it still lags compared to Windows Media Center, where virtually everything is instantaneous. I don't believe the current TiVo CPU is fast enough to support a graphics-intensive HD interface with a high-level of responsiveness, though it could probably support a more limited 16:9 UI.

The new and next-generation CPUs offer significantly improved 2D performance, plus 3D graphics with OpenGL 1.0. A key feature of these CPUs is Flash Lite (http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/) support. TiVo can do much more in Flash (with much less effort) than they can with their current architecture where everything is written in C. Earlier this year, there was a TiVo job posting for a "flash expert" with this bit:

TiVo designs and develops Flash Lite applications. It’s all about balancing user experience, technical capability and time-to-market. Easy? No, but we make it look that way for our customers. If you’ve shipped large and complex Flash applications (preferably on an embedded system), we’d like to talk to you.TiVo has apparently filled several other Flash-related positions. Their web site (http://www.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qMW9Vfww&page=Job%20Description&j=oUSbVfwC) currently has two Flash-related job postings for a "Flash engineer" and a "Senior Software Engineer - Flash/Actionscript." Excerpt from the responsibilities:

Be responsible for architecting and developing new FlashLite applications with a large team of developers.
I don't know whether the current Broadcom CPU -- the first to get Flash support -- provides the necessary performance for a high-definition, graphics-intensive Flash UI. That capability may not come until the next-generation BCM7410 is available in 2010.

Besides greater CPU and 2D/3D performance, Broadcom's next-generation SoC (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s358252) adds 1080p60 output, with deinterlace of 1080i into 1080p60 and pulldown of 1080p24 into 1080p60. Other new features include dynamic power management for improved energy efficiency, an integrated 1394a controller, and an integrated MoCA 1.1 modem to allow 100+Mbps networking over coax without the need for ethernet cables or wireless. None of these features are integrated with their current CPU.

That is a fantastic summary bfdtv.

My concern is that TiVo has been working harder on their rumored DirecTV box than they have on Series 4 boxes for current cable customers.

Maybe we will see a DirecTV TiVo box launch this winter with a Series 4 launching next spring.

Do you know if the MoCA modem technology will allow for the use of the coaxial cabling for 100mbps ethernet at the same time it is being utilized for normal baseband deployment for cable service? If so that would be pretty cool. You could have reasonable speed TiVo to TiVo transfer without installation of any new ethernet cable runs.

Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA®) What next??
The next thing you know someone is going to come up a way to send data over power lines. :eek: :D

If that stretched SD UI would be reduced to a 4x3 interface, woulkd that reduce the load on the processor? I have read a few user comments about how great TiVo's UI is, but according to what you posted, that's highly debatable.

Do you know if the MoCA modem technology will allow for the use of the coaxial cabling for 100mbps ethernet at the same time it is being utilized for normal baseband deployment for cable service? If so that would be pretty cool. You could have reasonable speed TiVo to TiVo transfer without installation of any new ethernet cable runs.Yes, it will. Cable networks use the first 860MHz on the cable. MoCA uses a 50MHz band in the 950-1150MHz range.

Verizon FiOS already has MoCA integrated in its boxes. That's how they are able to communicate directly for MRV without any extra cables. TiVo couldn't use MoCA for Internet connectivity unless the user connected a MoCA adapter (with a coax feed) to their router, but it would certainly simplify MRV.

If that stretched SD UI would be reduced to a 4x3 interface, woulkd that reduce the load on the processor?
If you want, you can display the UI in 4:3, but that doesn't make a difference. I do think you need to consider it in context. The Tivo UI can't compare to the responsiveness of Windows Media Center on a multi-GHz PC, but it is responsive compared to most cable DVRs, and it's a speed demon compared to the current software on the DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23 DVRs.

If you watched the Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1), be aware that any loading lag with the circular animation is Youtube's fault; that is not part of the capture. This may not be obvious to those that rarely use Youtube. If you have a slow connection to the Youtube site, allow your browser to build up the buffer before viewing.

I have read a few user comments about how great TiVo's UI is, but according to what you posted, that's highly debatable.Most people buy a TiVo for its usability, unmatched reliability for digital recording, and ease of skipping commercials. Others buy it because they want internal or external storage expansion, or the ability to download recordings directly to their computer. Few people buy a TiVo because they think it has a "pretty" interface.

Until six months ago, virtually every cable and satellite DVR used the same CPU as the TiVo to display a 4:3 UI across a 4:3 or 16:9 background. The only exception to that was Dish Network's ViP622/ViP722 DVRs, which feature an upconverted 16:9 SD EPG. TiVo probably kept the existing UI in part for performance reasons, and in part because it would've required a major re-engineering effort to produce a new 16:9 UI which would still be constrained by existing hardware.

A faster CPU from Broadcom just started shipping in quantity this year, which is one of the reasons for renewed interest in a new model. Thus far, the Dish Network ViP722K, Dish Network ViP922, Moxi, and the Motorola DCX are the only DVRs with the new CPU. Of those, only the ViP922 (screenshot (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/ilovehdtv/Other/ViP922/vip922_guide1.jpg)) and Moxi have an actual HD interface.

TiVo sought feedback on this new UI (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/29/potential-new-tivo-user-interface-shown-on-video/) last year, and they used a variation of it for the Internet-connected TiVo Search. On existing hardware, this TiVo Search UI lags (video demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPirnN_z9Cw&hd=1)); it isn't nearly nearly as elegant or smooth as what you see the first link.

The Engadget videos showing the new UI give me hope. That's exactly what I would expect to be getting in a Series 4 unit, a complete UI redesign that is optimized to take advantage of the extra screen resolution of 720P and 1080P sets as well the larger screen sizes in most newer model televisions.

I really do hope we see an announcement this year. We do know that TiVo took the Engadget feedback very seriously (they had their head of marketing respond directly), and I hope they realize that they need to ship a product this year, before other products start to take a real bite out of their market.

bfdtv; That's suppose to be slow (1st link)?? :confused:
Surely seems fast to me. BTW, the 2nd video didn't seem much different.

How about channel changes as in 'surfing'? Does it have the usual DVR delay?

Those videos are simulations. The slowness that he's referring to is the new search screen that looks like those simulations running on the current series 3 hardware. It is painfully slow.

To get speed like that seen in the video will definitely require new hardware capabilities.

I breezed through this thread and am awaiting a fully functional Tivo Series 4 like everyone else. I'm stuck with my Time Warner DVR and SARA software as of now. Navigator software is being tested at this time. All Tivo has to do is drop a box with PPV/VOD support and I'm there. I really would like to see them add quad tuning and be willing to pay for it or at the very least allow for dual tuner PLUS OTA.

How much do these run tivo series 4 ben ?

How much do these run tivo series 4 ben ?

They dont exist.. yet..

Yes, they are vaporware as of right now. Hopefully, Navigator will deliver the goods. However, I'm keeping a watchful eye on Tivo and Moxi because I have no doubt that when they deliver a two way capable box at some point it will crush anything TWC has.

They dont exist.. yet..

Correct. I started this thread because there had been speculation (still is) about a possible Series 4 (which would include the tuning adapter for systems that use SDV) and I felt there was need for a place for discussion on it.

Note that this is clearly marked "Unofficial" since there is currently no actual product out there.

Hopefully there will be product at some point! It's certainly needed with the lackluster garbage provider DVR's out there.

Transcript of TiVo's conference call on August 26 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/158649-tivo-inc-f2q10-qtr-end-7-31-09-earnings-call-transcript):

From page 2:
As part of this deal, TiVo and Best Buy are together working toward the development of new user interface features for TiVo DVRs sold by Best Buy, which will build upon TiVo’s seamless integration of broadcast, cable, and broadband content on the television set…

As proof of their commitment, beginning early next year Best Buy will be putting substantial marketing muscle behind this relationship as newly innovative features are rolled out.

From page 6:
I would say the essence of that [Best Buy] deal is geared toward early next year, where some product improvements and developments that we will be putting forward will be able to be wrapped into the overall strategic marketing relationship with Best Buy, so the guts of the relationship will really get under way then.

Earlier this month, RCN also indicated that it would deploy a new TiVo DVR with increased capacity in January, 2010 as its default DVR. RCN's Director of Video Operations said this was not the same product currently sold at retail.

I would not be surprised to see TiVo exit the direct retail business and rely entirely on Best Buy for retail sales with the next model. TiVo's retail sales are down and exiting the direct retail business would save them a considerable sum. They can leverage Best Buy's advertising power, supply chain management and other infrastructure that already exists.

P.S. bfdtv - you are the best poster on avs. I always enjoy reading your posts on DVRs.

Wait, hold on I could have sworn people have been able to use tivo receivers with directv...can someone confirm or unconfirm this?

Wait, hold on I could have sworn people have been able to use tivo receivers with directv...can someone confirm or unconfirm this?DirecTV's first DVR was based on TiVo. The "DirecTiVo" hardware and software was designed by TiVo. When News Corp took over, they stopped deploying "DirecTiVos" and hired NDS (a News Corp subsidiary and TiVo competitor) to design new hardware and software. DirecTV still uses that NDS software for its SD DVRs, but has since moved to development of their own software for the HD DVRs.

After News Corp sold DirecTV, the new owners (Liberty Media) struck a deal with TiVo to create a new DirecTiVo. This will be new and improved TiVo software that runs on DirecTV's own DVR hardware. This software is expected to debut with (or shortly after) the release of DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware platform in early 2010. Customers will be given the choice whether they want the TiVo or DirecTV DVR software.

I find it very humorous that this anticipation thread started in December 2007. I guess TiVo is like Heinz ketchup...anticipation. :D

Does anyone know what series the rcn/tivo box will be? It could be released as early as January!

Yes, anticipation. I check into this thread from time to time to see if there is any good news. I didn't get a lifetime subscription with my Tivo HD in anticipation of only using it for a year or two, expecting a Series4 or perhaps twc offernig tivo. Probably a bad decision.

Yes, anticipation. I check into this thread from time to time to see if there is any good news. I didn't get a lifetime subscription with my Tivo HD in anticipation of only using it for a year or two, expecting a Series4 or perhaps twc offernig tivo. Probably a bad decision.

One of my Series 3 is on a 3 year subscription, the other one is year to year, for the same reasons.

I was reluctant to buy lifetime plans when I fully anticipated updating to Series4 hardware within a couple of years.

Well, I'm not spending anything on a Tivo until they deploy a Series 4 with the features I want. At this pace, Moxi may beat them to market.

Well, I'm not spending anything on a Tivo until they deploy a Series 4 with the features I want. At this pace, Moxi may beat them to market.

I'll believe that when I see it - especially after Digeo developing several products and unceremoniously dumping them just shy of retail availability.

Not only that, they just released the Moxi HD box this spring. Kinda doubt you'd see a new box that would cannibalize the old one so soon.

Guys, I was being a little saracastic. Moxi makes a decent unit, but they just got SDV support. I expect Tivo to beat them to market with the next gen full two way box.

DirecTV's first DVR was based on TiVo. The "

After News Corp sold DirecTV, the new owners (Liberty Media) struck a deal with TiVo to create a new DirecTiVo. This will be new and improved TiVo software that runs on DirecTV's own DVR hardware. This software is expected to debut with (or shortly after) the release of DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware platform in early 2010. Customers will be given the choice whether they want the TiVo or DirecTV DVR software.


Yo bfdtv...is it your understanding that the Tivo software will be available the current DirecTV HD dvr's or just the next generation hardware?

any news?

None, which means no new Series 4 this year.

It will be another six months at a minimum.

TiVo is squandering their good will with me with these shenanigans. The Series 3 barely does what I need it to do and looks OLD. I am ready to put up my dollars for a better machine but in two years TiVo hasn't built one.

yeah I'm ready for a machine that has HD menus on an HD machine, as well as fast responsiveness and at least 100 Hours of HD video space built in. Oh, and wireless N built in, please?

I share you guys' frustration with nothing new from TiVo. I'd kill for a Tru2Way TiVo 4 with updated features and interface.

However, until someone comes out with a product that's better than my S3 or THD, they'll keep my business.

I share you guys' frustration with nothing new from TiVo. I'd kill for a Tru2Way TiVo 4 with updated features and interface.

However, until someone comes out with a product that's better than my S3 or THD, they'll keep my business.Manufacturers (including TiVo) are waiting for cable companies to widely deploy their tru2way software. Some people think of tru2way as some feature that works on its own, when it is anything but. tru2way is all about the ability to run a special version of the cable company software. Until that software is made available by the cable co, tru2way capability does absolutely nothing.

Time Warner and Brighthouse are the only cable companies with widely deployed tru2way software, and until very recently, that software was specific to their own equipment. Last month, Comcast announced that it would make tru2way software available in all markets by the end of 2009. Assuming Comcast follows through, we should see a number of tru2way products shown at CES in January.

bfdtv, do you have a wild guess as to when we could even hope to see a TiVo using Tru2Way on a Time Warner or Comcast system? 2011?