TiVo Series 4 - "UnOfficial" Thread [Text View]

sholmes

04-28-09, 10:21 PM

the next generation Tivo only needs 4 things: two-way on demand ability
TRIPLE tuner
larger hard drive
faster processors

has anyone heard anything official?

Engadget just decided to do an intervention on TiVo. Hopefully TiVo reads and responds to it similar to when Palm responded to Engadget's suggestions. I really hate how non-fluid the TiVo interface is and how it hasn't changed much over the years. It really needs a window so you can continue watching TV while accessing the menus. But I pretty much agree with all of Engadget's recommendations.

Ten Years of TiVo: How Far We Haven't Come

We'll be totally honest here: we love TiVo. TiVo DVRs of every vintage are scattered throughout the Engadget editorial ranks, and Series3 units are our preferred hardware for HD Netflix streaming and Amazon's nascent HD Video on Demand service. And, well, using a TiVo is just fun in a way that no other DVR ever is -- those booping noises still provoke smiles all around.

But here's the thing: it's been ten years since TiVo first introduced the Philips-built HDR110 at NAB, and while the company's name has since become synonymous with time-shifted digital video recording, it's not because its products have achieved runaway success. In fact, it's the exact opposite: most consumers choose to get by with awful cable- or satellite-company DVRs, and TiVo's only just barely pulled a full year of profitability, two factors that have kept it firmly on deathwatch since 2005. Not only that, but while TiVo might have pushed the DVR into the mainstream, it hasn't meaningfully innovated since -- apart from HD output and the aforementioned streaming services, you'd be hard-pressed to tell a brand-new TiVo HD from an original unit by using it for five minutes. Worse, the entire DVR category's essentially remained stagnant as well -- one study found that the average DVR-enabled family records just 15-20 percent of the TV they watch, a startlingly low number by any measure.

So look -- it's not working, guys. We're happy that Comcast is now offering the TiVo interface in certain markets as a paid option, and we'll be pleased as punch when those long-promised new DirecTiVo units ship out, but the simple fact of the matter is TiVo can't continue to rely on the same strategies and ideas that haven't worked for the past ten years. What TiVo needs is a new plan -- and we've got five simple ideas that might help kickstart the company and the DVR market for the next ten years. Read on for more.

1. Embrace the computer within

Sure, the DVR is supposed to be an "appliance." And there's nothing wrong with letting things operate that way in general. But in reality you're shipping a custom Linux rig with dedicated HD video hardware, Ethernet, and external storage support -- the possibilities are endless. It's great that you've built a YouTube implementation, but a basic browser with Flash video support should have been part of the stock install for years now. The DVR that can also play Hulu without any hassles -- instant hit product. Local network streaming? It's great that it's partially supported, but half-assed codec support doesn't cut it anymore. Make your box play everything, no questions asked. People with TiVos shouldn't be tempted by a media streamer ever again.

The same goes for getting video out and onto portable devices -- you're being totally shown up by open-source projects like iTiVo and pyTiVo. TiVo Desktop Plus shouldn't be an afterthought your customers have to pay extra for -- it should be the defining feature of your product. Record a show, have it on your phone the next morning to watch on the train -- no cable company can compete with that. Mix in a little Slingbox-like placeshifting and gadget nerds will be beating down your door with $12.95 monthly subscription fees.

Can't do it, the networks and cable companies won't let us? Stop crying and point them in the direction of any decent Media Center PC, which can do all of this and more, and even do it with your interface. No excuses.

2. Put a little QWERTY in the peanut

The peanut remote is arguably one of the most iconic pieces of home theater gear ever designed. It feels great in the hand, it's intuitive, and it's powerful. It's also incredibly obsolete. What are all those number buttons for? Why is there still a switch to select between two DVRs? Why can't it control other A/V gear as well as a $25 universal can? Why is 30-second skip still a hidden command? Most importantly, why is using it to enter in search terms such a terrible pain in the ass?

If you're going to be serious about video on demand and your new search interface, you've got to make text input way easier. This isn't rocket science -- just take a cue from the smartphone market and build a slider QWERTY peanut with a friendly, stripped-down top layout. Not only will you have once again set a standard in remote design for a decade, you'll have made YouTube on TiVo something other than a painful way to torture party guests with bloopy sounds.

3. Update the interface

Speaking of the interface, it's time to rethink things. A lot's happened in the ten years since we first saw the TiVo interface, and it hasn't kept up. That new search interface is a start, but it's time to let go of the SD customer and start seriously designing for the 16:9 HD display. You've got a lot more room to work with now, so give us the data we crave, like storage meters, PIP, and network-enabled information overlays. Hell, go crazy and toss in a third-party widget API, like Yahoo's doing. Fix the simple stuff, too: there shouldn't be any jaggies. Reordering the Season Pass priority list should happen seamlessly in the background instead of locking the user out for an indeterminate period of time. Switching between the "native" TiVo interface and things like Netflix and HMO apps shouldn't be so jarring and involve obvious resolution changes.

Just being slightly better than the cable company's garbage won't cut it for much longer -- again, the Media Center PC kicks your ass right now, and the high-end customer on which you're currently relying is going to figure that out soon.

4. Ship the Series4 with tru2way support as fast as you can

Yes, we're telling you to add in a lot of features, but time is of the essence, and the next generation of TiVo hardware with tru2way support needs to hit shelves soon. The single biggest reason people don't switch to TiVo is the lack of cable company on demand and pay-per-view content, and tru2way will put an end to it. Sure, the interface might be out of your hands and largely sucky, but hey, it'll still be there. Panasonic already has tru2way hardware on the market and the system is live in a few cities with major rollouts planned for July 1 -- so what's the holdup here?

Oh -- and just call it the Series4, okay? Trust us.

5. Cajole, convince and inform your audience with advertising

Everyone -- everyone! -- says they're going to "TiVo" a show. But they don't actually know what a TiVo is, and you're not telling them. We sort of get why you wouldn't spend a ton on advertising right now -- the economy's in a hole and your offering isn't necessarily $300 and $12.95 a month better than the cable company -- but you need to invest heavily in explaining to people why your next product is going to change the way they consume media. Show them the difference between a DVR that works almost perfectly and the crap they're stuck with now. Hold their hand during the inevitably bad CableCARD installation. Offer lifetime service plans again. In short, give your customers a reason to buy into your brand and correct people who say they have "a TiVo" when they mean a generic DVR. It won't be easy, but it's doable -- you just need a product that deserves the effort.

Wrap-up

Look -- none of these ideas are guaranteed to work. Maybe the surest path to profitability is indeed selling software to cable and satellite companies. Maybe Microsoft will eat the entire DVR market for lunch with a combination of Media Center, Windows Home Server and the Xbox 360. It's damn well going to try. But we'd bet the vast majority of consumers will still be puttering along recording just 15-20 percent of their media on crap DVRs until they have a compelling reason to switch to something better. That's a huge opportunity waiting to be seized, but it's not going to sit there forever -- the TiVo brand might give you an advantage to start, but unless you make some serious moves, next-gen devices like the EchoStar SlingLoaded T2200S are going to snatch it out from under you. The next ten years starts now -- we'll be watching.

Engadget: Ten Years of TiVo: How Far We Haven't Come (http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/ten-years-of-tivo-how-far-we-havent-come/)

dean-l

05-09-09, 03:58 AM

It's good to see some sign of life but they had better be more than just working on a new product. They need to be putting the finishing trim, cleaning the windows, and getting ready to roll it into the showroom! Following some other forums, a lot of people have been unhappy with the stability of Series3 (inc. TiVo HD) players using both cable cards and the tuning adapter to work with switched digital video. If tru2way doesn't get on the scene soon for both the cable operators and TiVo you are likely to see some serious erosion in new customer numbers.

I've been very happy using a Series 2 player (and a Series 1 going back to 2001), but I'm very hesitant to go to the ToVo HD with all the bolt on parts needed to view the local channel lineup. When I do finally go to HD at home (maybe, finally, this summer) I'm seriously considering going with a *GASP* cable company DVR until a Series4 with tru2way becomes available.

I just got off the cable DVR to the TiVo HD you're complaining about - good luck to you sir. I suffered 4 years with that crap from cable.

SDV - everyone worries about it and few have it. Those that REALLY do, know the tuning resolvers work fine and are free from the cable company. DONE.

I've noticed MOST people who find "excuses" against TiVo either - never had a TiVo OR never have had a cable DVR.

I'VE HAD BOTH - No question - TiVo is vastly superior -- PERIOD.

Maybe some TiVo people need to rent a cable DVR for a while to remind them WHY they have a TiVo to begin with.

b_scott

05-18-09, 03:29 PM

any news?

bfdtv

05-18-09, 07:04 PM

any news?
No news. The TivoHD was released in the July/August timeframe, so that's probably a good bet for the next model or a refresh of the existing model, if there is one this year. In the past, TiVo used early adopters to iron out any remaining kinks before the holiday season.

I'm hoping we don't see a new model this summer, because that will mean that TiVo opted for the BCM7400 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7400-PB08-R.pdf)/BCM7405 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7405-PB04-R.pdf) (available today) rather than wait for the next-generation BCM7410 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7410-PB01-R.pdf) CPU. I think the BCM7410 will be worth the wait, but it won't ship in quantity until the second half of this year.

For comparison purposes, here's the TivoHD's CPU (http://ja.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf).

b_scott

05-18-09, 07:23 PM

thanks bfd :)

mp11

05-18-09, 09:50 PM

cypherstream

05-18-09, 10:12 PM

I think the BCM7400/BCM7405 is in the Motorola DCX set top box. Wow, Motorola is always one step behind!

b_scott

05-18-09, 10:19 PM

Tivo PLEEEEEAAASE have an on-off switch on the series 4 remote! I mean come on! Going through menus to turn it off? I love my TivoHD, I can turn it on with the remote...but cant turn it off the same way? What is the logic in that?

I understand the logic - it's supposed to be left on all the time - if it had a power button dumb people would just turn it off when they weren't watching it. My thing is, there should be a hard on/off switch so you don't have to unplug it, on the side or something. Should be used sparingly only when the system is unresponsive, because you shouldn't be hard stopping the drive arm often.

demonfoo

05-18-09, 10:23 PM

Tivo PLEEEEEAAASE have an on-off switch on the series 4 remote! I mean come on! Going through menus to turn it off? I love my TivoHD, I can turn it on with the remote...but cant turn it off the same way? What is the logic in that?

There's no "off" switch because there's no logical reason to have one. Turning it off would only make sense if there was something *to* turn off. The drive, the CPU, the memory, the tuners, all that stays on all the time. The only thing that gets turned off when you put the TiVo into standby mode is the video output. Everything else stays on 24x7. Look at the Motorola DVRs - their "off" mode only causes trouble (it puts itself into "mute" mode when it turns on to record something, then sometimes forgets to unmute). So what's the point of having an off switch?

mp11

05-19-09, 09:49 AM

[QUOTE] Turning it off would only make sense if there was something *to* turn off. The drive, the CPU, the memory, the tuners, all that stays on all the time.

2 statements and both condradicted each other. Why would the drive, the CPU, the memory and the tuners NEED to stay lit up 24/7? Thats like leaving your PC turned on 24/7 365 days/yr.

The only thing that gets turned off when you put the TiVo into standby mode is the video output.

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

demonfoo

05-19-09, 10:13 AM

2 statements and both condradicted each other. Why would the drive, the CPU, the memory and the tuners NEED to stay lit up 24/7? Thats like leaving your PC turned on 24/7 365 days/yr.

Because it needs to be able to record any time? Mine is always recording something, whether it's a scheduled recording, or a suggestion recording. Also, even when it's not recording, both tuners have live buffers spooled out to disk. So they're always on because it's always recording. Literally, always.

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

I didn't design the TiVo, so I don't know. Really the only thing you get out of it with the Series3/HD units is that EAS notices don't preempt the tuners while it's in standby mode. Otherwise, everything else remains on. I've never bothered putting mine into standby mode; there's just no need.

b_scott

05-19-09, 10:41 AM

OK not looking to argue here, but why shut off the video output while leaving everything else up and running constantly? What would it hurt to leave that on also? My point being, does it even need a standby button?

Some people watch their power like a hawk - i'll be the video output uses up energy that isn't necessary, so the option is there.

demonfoo

05-19-09, 10:59 AM

Some people watch their power like a hawk - i'll be the video output uses up energy that isn't necessary, so the option is there.

The MPEG decoder and video encoder stages aren't major power consumers though - the CPU, disk, and other subsystems which must remain on 24x7 are. As others have said many, many times before, if you're concerned about power consumption, there are other, more worthwhile targets to focus attention on in your home than your TiVo - the power supply only pulls like 50 or 60 watts. If you have have a few incandescent bulbs in your house that you use regularly, that's consuming more power than your TiVo - never mind your stove, microwave, water heater, washer, dryer, garage door opener, etc.

b_scott

05-19-09, 11:09 AM

Could also be that someone has an HDMI switch that is automatic, and if it's receiving a signal it switches, so leaving the output on could screw with that. who knows.

mp11

05-19-09, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=demonfoo;16488952]Because it needs to be able to record any time? Mine is always recording something, whether it's a scheduled recording, or a suggestion recording. Also, even when it's not recording, both tuners have live buffers spooled out to disk. So they're always on because it's always recording. Literally, always.

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing. I also was constantly recording something...daytime or middle on the night. Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.

demonfoo

05-19-09, 02:16 PM

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing.

So then, its "off" switch did the same thing that "standby" mode does on the TiVo, most likely - i.e., shut off the video output stage, and left everything else running. No power saving to speak of. I bet if you put it on an ammeter, you'd be lucky to see the power draw drop by 1 watt when you turned it "off".

Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.

It's fine. TiVo doesn't have an "off" switch because, as I said, it doesn't buy you anything. No power saving. So acknowledging reality, it's just "on" all the time. All the power switch on the HR2x DVRs does, then, is give you the warm fuzzies of having a power switch - it doesn't really do anything. Which is fine, but the lack of one isn't hurting you either. Plus it simplifies the software and hardware implementation.

bfdtv

05-19-09, 03:32 PM

Well For a couple of years I had an HR20/21. It had an off switch and it could do basically everything you stated(although in the crappy HR series way). I would go to bed at night and shut it off and it would do its thing. I also was constantly recording something...daytime or middle on the night. Sorry if I'm a little confused here. :) Thats is what I'm going by. But if you guys say its fine to stay on...thats OK by me.The HR2x are just like the TiVo. The power button just turns off the video output. The HR20 uses ~45 watts when "on" and ~43 watts when "off." The TivoHD uses ~34 watts when "on" and ~32 watts when in "standby." The TiVo Series3 uses about five watts more.

The current Broadcom DVR CPUs used in TiVo, Dish Network, and DirecTV DVRs don't have much in the way of power management features. In January, Broadcom announced a next-generation DVR CPU with power management, but it won't ship until the second half of this year.

mp11

05-20-09, 04:34 PM

The HR2x are just like the TiVo. The power button just turns off the video output. The HR20 uses ~45 watts when "on" and ~43 watts when "off." The TivoHD uses ~34 watts when "on" and ~32 watts when in "standby." The TiVo Series3 uses about five watts more.

The current Broadcom DVR CPUs used in TiVo, Dish Network, and DirecTV DVRs don't have much in the way of power management features. In January, Broadcom announced a next-generation DVR CPU with power management, but it won't ship until the second half of this year.

Well I didnt really mean to make my OP sound like I was concerned about power consumption. I guess what I illuded to(and I should have made it clear), was more a concern for the hard drive. Would it in any way shape or form shorten the lifespan of my hard drive if left on constantly? But if it only pertains to the video output, then I guess that answered my question. Thanks.

jmpage2

05-20-09, 11:24 PM

Well I didnt really mean to make my OP sound like I was concerned about power consumption. I guess what I illuded to(and I should have made it clear), was more a concern for the hard drive. Would it in any way shape or form shorten the lifespan of my hard drive if left on constantly? But if it only pertains to the video output, then I guess that answered my question. Thanks.

Probably the opposite actually. Leaving hard drives on actually results in less wear and tear then shutting them down and spinning them back up.

I would love the discussion move away from the 10 watts we all might save with better power management on the TiVo and more pressing concerns, such as whether or not TiVo actually delivers a new product this year.

b_scott

06-09-09, 04:26 PM

need more info.....

QZ1

06-09-09, 06:28 PM

The TivoHD was released in the July/August timeframe, so that's probably a good bet for the next model or a refresh of the existing model, if there is one this year.
I looked up the least two Tivo DVR release dates:

Tivo HD - 24 July 07.
Tivo HD XL - 4 Sept. 08.

So, it looks I will be waiting 1.5 - 3 mos. to see what Tivo has to offer.;):)

b_scott

08-06-09, 04:36 PM

the HD XL wasn't even a new model really, just a bigger hard drive.

Where's S4?

jmpage2

08-06-09, 06:57 PM

There might not be one. There is speculation that Tivo could drop their direct to consumer model for equipment in the next year or two (continuing of course to service the ones that are out there) and instead rely on cable company, satellite company and other contracts (Best Buy branded units) to make their dough.

Which would really really suck if true.

wmcbrine

08-06-09, 08:39 PM

There is speculationWhere?

bfdtv

08-06-09, 08:59 PM

Where?Source (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16956737&postcount=69).

;)

jmpage2

08-10-09, 02:08 AM

You guys are pretty gosh darn hilarious.

There have been a series of articles on Engadget, Gizmodo and some interesting commentary from David Zatz about what direction TiVo might go next.

It's not a sure thing that there WILL be a Series 4 Tivo, but I hope there will be. The big challenge for Tivo at this point is that they are seriously needing major updates such as Tru-2-Way functionality so that cable junkies can get On Demand and PPV services, along with update to a true HD interface that makes use of the larger amount of real estate available on new HD televisions (the current HD Tivo display is just a stretched SD resolution menu that fills up the HD space).

TiVo has a lot on their plate. I hope they take the wins they've seen in the courts and deliver us an outstanding Series 4 box with new features (place shifting, ala Sling box), etc.

Time will tell, but historically they've announced their products between August and September, so if we don't hear something in the next month or two it is extremely unlikely that we will see a product update this year.

slowbiscuit

08-10-09, 07:28 AM

Redoing the interface could be done with current hardware (they do it now with the new Tivo Search), and they are tackling the VOD/PPV problem with the Seachange announcement (http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2009/pr2009-03-02b.html). Sometime later this year, the existing S3 Tivos on some of the big cable systems may be able to get OnDemand. I don't want tru2way if it means that big cableCos control the interface.

Once they add OnDemand, there's not much missing other than more internet options, which they could add at any time. But newer/faster hardware is always good.

jmpage2

08-10-09, 12:04 PM

kimifelipe

08-10-09, 09:03 PM

The MPEG decoder and video encoder stages aren't major power consumers though - the CPU, disk, and other subsystems which must remain on 24x7 are. .... snip

I'm sorry but this simply is not true at all. I still have my circa 2004 panasonic dvd recorder (E95H) - a device which is not matched in ease of use and functionality by any current dvr I've seen, including a tivo - and this machine was left off all the time. It has a timer that will fire up the encoder, tuner, and hard drive about 1 minute before a scheduled recording, it would record, and then go back to sleep. It would wake up to get guide info, then go back to sleep. It has it's downfalls, but there's no better SD DVR. Too bad an HD version of this is not available.

Edit: I'm really surprised to read that the tivo uses 50 to 60 watts - the directv HR21 used 35 watts (off) or 37 watts (on) - yeah, funny, huh? what's the point of having it off?

kimifelipe

08-10-09, 09:26 PM

I'm a new tivo user, and fios tv user. I really think fios tv is a great service - better PQ than D*, in some cases a lot better, and better equipment too - definitely a lot better equipment. In fact, I like the fios tv interface better than the tivo interface. I really hate the absurdly small tivo hard drive in my tivo HD and the ability to transfer programs to the computer is awesome - IN THEORY. In practice, a transfer rate of 3 GB per hour is just embarrasingly silly. What a joke. This is a feature? Combined with the paltry storage space, the tivo hd is a marginal to poor value. It's the same monthly cost as the fios dvr, but you pay an extra $300 up front, and for that what do you get? Downloading movies from amazon? internet access? I'm not a fan - because this is a tv device. And it doesnt offer VOD from Verizon, which, btw, is actually excellent.

So, my advice to tivo is to get the tivo up to date. The hard drive is just a joke in 2009. The processor needs to handle higher network transfer rates. Then this might be a more compelling device. Even with another $50 increase in price, the value proposition would be a lot better. Honestly, I am very disappointed by the tivo - I was expecting to be blown away by its features and eas of use - but its not possible to get past what a pain in the ass it is to actually use the dvr.

As it is, honestly, I am really thinking about returning my tivo because it doesn't offer value for my money. I think I am better off seeing if the next tivo is more valuable. I hope so, because as poor as the HR21 is, it is a better dvr than the tivo, which can hold no more than about 5 movies. My 6 year old dvr holds a good 30 (not HD).

Bring the tivo into the latter half of the decade and it will be popular again. Right now, just about any TV provider offers a more useful (if less usable) dvr.

bfdtv

08-10-09, 09:52 PM

Edit: I'm really surprised to read that the tivo uses 50 to 60 watts - the directv HR21 used 35 watts (off) or 37 watts (on) - yeah, funny, huh? what's the point of having it off?I'm not sure where you read that about the TivoHD, but it's not true. Kill-a-watt reports my 1TB TivoHD at 34-35 watts while recording two HD channels.

One would expect the HR21 and TivoHD to be fairly similar in power consumption, because the hardware is so similar (same processor, memory, etc).

In practice, a transfer rate of 3 GB per hour is just embarrasingly silly. What a joke. This is a feature?How long have you had the TiVo? After you've got the 11.0d software and your TiVo is done indexing the guide data, you should see 1.5-2.0x that on a regular basis. Indexing takes 48-72 hours. Everything is slower until you've had the 11.0 software for 48-72 hours.

I don't agree that transfers are useless. That might be a valid argument if you had to manually transfer one program at a time, but you don't. Most of the TiVo download programs allow both queuing and autotransfer capability. There's no need to sit and wait for each download to complete.

Of course we'd all like to see faster transfers. Faster DVR processors from Broadcom started shipping in quantity this year (found only in the Moxi and Dish Network ViP722K so far), and Broadcom announced even faster CPUs for next year. With the latest generation DVR processor, TiVo could probably double network throughput. Alternatively, TiVo could wait six months for the next generation and improve throughput by 3-4x.

Combined with the paltry storage space, the tivo hd is a marginal to poor value.Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.

High-definition DVR technology is still expensive. You can't directly compare the cost of a DirecTV HR21 DVR because that (a) product is subsidized with a two year contract renewal, (b) it doesn't have OTA tuners, (c) it doesn't have analog tuners, and (d) it doesn't support CableCards. Obviously, it doesn't work with FiOS.

I do agree that the base TivoHD should really have 320GB and not 160GB. But it's not easy to simply upgrade capacity and keep cost the same, because then the old boxes won't sell. TiVo will have to do that eventually, but it probably doesn't make a whole lot of fiscal sense until a new design is ready. To compensate, TiVo supports external drives, and they make it easy enough to upgrade the internal drive. You can upgrade any TiVo with a 1TB drive upgrade for $90-$100, if you're willing to void the warranty.

bfdtv

08-10-09, 10:15 PM

They really do need new hardware for the new interface. The new Tivo Search looks great, but it's slower than molasses.

Transfer speeds are still slow. I've got two Tivo HD units and over the 100MB LAN it still takes over an hour to transfer an HD show.

They should put in a faster processor, built in gigabit ethernet
I don't think there is any point to gigabit ethernet. No announced or shipping DVR CPU can take full advantage of 100Mbps ethernet, let alone give you gigabit speeds. With the technology shipping today (i.e. the latest Broadcom DVR CPU), a new TiVo might provide a bit over 2x existing throughput. That's a significant improvement over what we have now, but it's still within the confines of 100Mbps ethernet.

Tivo's Broadcom CPU = 450 DMIPS
latest Broadcom CPU = 1000 DMIPS
next-gen Broadcom CPU = 1500 DMIPS

and definitely overhaul the interface.Moving forward, I don't think it makes much sense for TiVo to maintain separate software and interfaces for their DirecTV, Comcast, OCAP, and standalone boxes. That's not an effective use of resources. There needs to be a single codebase that can be [mostly] shared across all platforms.

I suspect that is what we will get with a next-generation TiVo. I think it very likely that the next-generation DirecTiVo will feature a 16:9 UI when it ships in early 2010 on DirecTV's next-generation hardware platform, and I would expect any future standalone TiVo to feature a very similar (if not identical) UI.

kimifelipe

08-10-09, 10:33 PM

I'm not sure where you read that about the TivoHD, but it's not true. Kill-a-watt reports my 1TB TivoHD at 34-35 watts while recording two HD channels.

One would expect the HR21 and TivoHD to be fairly similar in power consumption, because the hardware is so similar (same processor, memory, etc).

How long have you had the TiVo? After you've got the 11.0d software and your TiVo is done indexing the guide data, you should see 1.5-2.0x that on a regular basis. Indexing takes 48-72 hours. Everything is slower until you've had the 11.0 software for 48-72 hours.

I don't agree that transfers are useless. That might be a valid argument if you had to manually transfer one program at a time, but you don't. Most of the TiVo download programs allow both queuing and autotransfer capability. There's no need to sit and wait for each download to complete.

Of course we'd all like to see faster transfers. Faster DVR processors from Broadcom started shipping in quantity this year (found only in the Moxi and Dish Network ViP722K so far), and Broadcom announced even faster CPUs for next year. With the latest generation DVR processor, TiVo could probably double network throughput. Alternatively, TiVo could wait six months for the next generation and improve throughput by 3-4x.

Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.

High-definition DVR technology is still expensive. You can't directly compare the cost of a DirecTV HR21 DVR because that (a) product is subsidized with a two year contract renewal, (b) it doesn't have OTA tuners, (c) it doesn't have analog tuners, and (d) it doesn't support CableCards. Obviously, it doesn't work with FiOS.

I do agree that the base TivoHD should really have 320GB and not 160GB. But it's not easy to simply upgrade capacity and keep the cost the same, because then the old boxes won't sell. To compensate, they support external drives, and they make it easy enough to upgrade the internal drive. You can purchase a 1TB drive upgrade for $90-$100, if you're willing to void the warranty.

I read the 50/60 watts right here on this thread; don't know and don't care; I thought the 35 watts of my HR21 was awful, the tivo is too.

I appreciate your point about the new software, but come on, 7 GB an hour is every bit as pathetic as 3 GB/hr. On a 100 Mbps network when I could have a 1000 MBps network. This is 90's technology, for chrissakes. There's just no defending that.

I can't get kmttg to auto download properly - I get partials. So, I have to cue them up. At least I can cue them up. But this service is not provided by tivo - it is essentially a hack. You can't defend this either. It simply is not part of the value package. There is the "ability" to transfer videos. It is slow and manual and not worth $200. This feature represents the sole advantage of the tivo HD over the fios DVR. And the fios dvr has a far better interface and is more usable. Tivo has a poor value proposition by comparison. The D* dvr is a far better dvr, but the interface stinks and is terribly slow. Now, if the tivo could use an actual, modern network instead of being limited to 10 Mbps and you could automate transfers, then yea, this is worth a significant part of my $200 (refurbd) or $300 (new).

Buy the tivo hd xl for $250 more than the HD and all I get is a 1 TB HD worth less than $100???? Come on, that's just stupid. Who gives a rip about THX?? I just want to watch the red sox with no commercials.

Talk about contracts with D* - so, the Tivo service has no contract? Come on. It's actually cheaper to have the D* dvr. The fios dvr is comparably priced. Until you factor in the tivo purchase price, and it looks to me like the tivo is actually a pretty poor value. I don't care about using the D* dvr with fios - the fios dvr beats tivo all by itself.

Saying that old boxes wont sell as an argument not to make a competitive product is an excellent strategy for eroding your new customer base. I have been dying to have this device and now that I have it, the circa 2006 hard drive very nearly has me sending it back, eliminating the main revenue stream to tivo - the subscription.

How smart is that? If you think it makes sense then you need to take a business class or two.

kimifelipe

08-10-09, 10:40 PM

snip
Moving forward, I don't think it makes much sense for TiVo to maintain separate software and interfaces for their DirecTV, Comcast, OCAP, and standalone boxes. That's not an effective use of resources. There needs to be a single codebase that can be [mostly] shared across all platforms.
snip

Hold on there. As a firmly EX-D* customer I am warning you against this strategy. During my 1.5 years with D*, I had an HR21 dvr adn an H21 non-dvr. The latter box was nice for a while - fast and usable, the dvr just sucked - as long as 5 sec to change a channel or bring up the guide. At LEAST 3 sec. This is not acceptable. The non dvr HD box was fast - less than a second most of the time.

Then the software "upgrades" came. Hit and miss on the dvr- sometimes a marginal improvement, often and update eliminated a previous improvement.

But, the idiots at D* wanted the dvr and non-dvr boxes to have the same software. So, now, the non-dvr box is almost as slow as the DVR!!!!! IDIOTIC.

This is why I am no longer a D* customer - who wants to wait seconds to change the channel. Every time. Even when switching between the same two channels.

It is a bad idea, it makes every box as bad as the worst box, it doesnt bring out the best in each. It drives customers away.

Take a look at the fios HD box and the dvr. Sure, there are some issues, but these boxes operate the way you want a tv to operate - fast channel changes and guide performance. The D* equipment operates like an old computer with operating software written by an amateur.

Unfortunately, the tivo box is not a whole heck of a lot better.

kimifelipe

08-10-09, 10:45 PM

snip
Note Tivo does offer a 1TB version of the product. Amazon.com sells it for $499.

Actually, come to think of it, the only reason I even tried the tivo was because I could get the $200 refurbished box. $500 + $400 for the lifetime subscription (which, honestly, will be useful for 4 years if we're lucky - the box will need to be upgraded by then) is just too much. For this price it makes more sense to rent two dvrs from the provider. There's only so much value to a 1 TB disk. You can get one from newegg for less than $80. It's not worth $200 (or $300 in my case) above the cost of the (admittedly unusable) 160 GB disk.

bfdtv

08-11-09, 01:17 AM

I appreciate your point about the new software, but come on, 7 GB an hour is every bit as pathetic as 3 GB/hr. On a 100 Mbps network when I could have a 1000 MBps network. This is 90's technology, for chrissakes. There's just no defending that.I think you are confusing PC technology with DVR SoC technology. The TiVo had the latest DVR SoC technology when it shipped in 2007. TiVo could at least double network throughput with Broadcom's latest DVR SoCs, but the technology does not exist to produce a low-cost, dual-tuner HDTV DVR with PC-like network throughput.

If you want to buy your own dual-tuner CableCard PC, you can do that. But you won't be able to transfer your recordings or manipulate them. Microsoft currently uses DRM to tie recordings from cable channels to a single PC in an encrypted file. The best you can do is stream them to an authorized extender, like the Xbox360.

I can't get kmttg to auto download properly - I get partials. So, I have to cue them up. At least I can cue them up.You can't call it a hack when this is officially supported functionality. TiVo provides the same queuing and autotransfer functionality -- minus the ability to automatically decode and remove commercials -- with the free TiVo Desktop software.

TiVo Desktop will automatically re-transfer (or resume?) any queued recording that is interrupted. I don't think kmttg does that yet.

This feature represents the sole advantage of the tivo HD over the fios DVR. And the fios dvr has a far better interface and is more usable.I could not disagree more. It sounds like you haven't used the FiOS DVR, or haven't used it for long. I used the FiOS DVR for 18 months.

As a DVR, the FiOS' Motorola DVR is not in the same class with TiVo. The #1 job of a DVR is to reliably record programs. The TiVo does that as good or better than anyone. The FiOS DVR does not. The FiOS DVR is probably the most unreliable DVR offered by any major cable or satellite provider in the U.S.

The FiOS DVR software is only partly to blame. The main culprit is Verizon's choice of a cheaper guide data provider that does not consistently provide reliable guide information. New episodes are often flagged as repeats and repeats are flagged as new episodes. Sometimes the guide data is completely wrong and the information in the guide does not match up with what is on TV.

A few threads on the FiOS DVR:

Verizon Forums: Guide consistently WRONG!!! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&thread.id=1887&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)
Verizon Forums: Guide wrong and what isn't wrong is incomplete (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=643)
Verizon Forums: Verizon TV Guide questions (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=12784)
Verizon Forums: New to Fios - guide information making me crazy! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=9389)
Verizon Forums: Wrong Guide Alert Thread!! (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&message.id=5823)
Verizon Forums: Guide Feedback (http://forums.verizon.com/vrzn/board/message?board.id=FiOS_TV&thread.id=177&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)

DSLReports: When do we get rid of FYI for the guide? (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21256191-When-do-we-get-rid-of-FYI-for-the-guide)
DSLReports: Fios Guide Content Bad (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19765987-Fios-Guide-Content-Bad)
DSLReports: Ultimate Wrong Guide Data (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21111553-Ultimate-Wrong-Guide-Data)
DSLReports: A few mild rants (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21676591-A-few-mild-rants)
DSLReports: Any software updates planned for HDDVR? (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22820591-Any-software-updates-planned-for-HDDVR)
DSLReports: USA HD -- Burn Notice and Royal Pains (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22610809-USA-HD-Burn-Notice-and-Royal-Pains)

The FiOS STB/DVR has a "pretty" color-coded guide with nice graphics. If you only take the program guide interface and ignore everything else, including the program guide data, then the FiOS DVR certainly looks like the better product. But I don't think any responsible comparison can do that.

Most FiOS users buy a TivoHD not for its ability to download programs, but for its ability to reliably record. After that, the top reason has got to be the support for drive expansion. Many may not be happy with the stock capacity on the standard TivoHD, but at least it allows internal and external capacity expansion; the FiOS DVR allows neither. My reasons for upgrading from the FiOS DVR:

Reliability. The FIOS DVR just isn't reliable with FYI Television as the guide data provider.

No support for internal or external drive expansion. Limited to ~20 HD hours.

Does not keep track of programs you've recorded, so it re-records episodes of cable programs after you delete them.

No wishlists or any form of autorecord based on search, so you can't set the FiOS DVR to automatically record all pro or college sports with your favorite teams; FiOS DVR can't be set to automatically record new series pilots;

Less responsive with trickplay functions like 30sec skip; inferior autocorrection; no 15min skip;

No ability to download or transfer recordings from cable channels to your computer for viewing, burning to DVD / Blu-ray, or transfer to a portable device.

I like the ability to download recordings, but that was last on my list of reasons.

I prefer the TiVo's interface for watching recording programs. I open the NPL with a single-click on my remote (see the FAQ) and all my recordings are folderized by alphabet or date, which I can change with a single-click. Inside each folder is a list of episode titles with their recorded date. I can single-click play and single-click delete both individual recordings and entire folders of recordings.

For me, the four most important features of a DVR are reliability, reliability, reliability, and ease of skipping commercials. I rarely watch liveTV, so a pretty EPG with fancy graphics is not important to me. I expect to come home, eat dinner, sit down in front of my TV, and watch the recording of my favorite series from the night before. I do not tolerate missed or incomplete recordings.

My main desire for a new TiVo is a 16:9 UI that shows more program information on the screen in the NPL, EPG, and search. I would like scheduled record indicators in the EPG (seen in this screenshot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2126646108/in/set-72157603515035363/)) and a further breakdown of the To Do List (seen in this screenshot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2125870635/in/set-72157603515035363/)), except in a 16:9 UI. I'd like high-throughput streaming for both MRV and PC video playback so I can remotely FF through recordings and videos without waiting for a transfer. I'd like DLNA support and native playback of more PC video formats at higher bitrates.

jmpage2

08-11-09, 01:25 AM

I'm glad that BFDTV brought this up. Bag on TiVo as much as you want, but it will reliably record your programs. I've owned a large variety of DVRs and only the Tivo units have reliably recorded my programs with almost zero problems.

The TiVo will almost always pick up guide changes, will extend recording time on its own in some cases, and never ever locks up.

It might be slow and missing some other features but the reliable recording along with the nice thumbs-up/thumbs-down (something I never thought I would use but rely on completely now to find programs I like during summer months when we aren't recording anything), transfers between machines, etc, makes the TiVo the best DVR out there.

It just needs an updated, FASTER, search/index system (the new beta search is a good start), HD menus (so we can watch a show while using the TiVo menu, in other words take advantage of HD real estate) and Tru-2-Way functionality.

Tru-2-Way is critical for TiVo, as the loss of On Demand and PPV is one of the primary reasons people will NOT buy a TiVo unit. We are paying for On Demand whether we are using it or not, so it would be awfully nice to be able to view the programming on TiVo boxes.

slowbiscuit

08-11-09, 07:39 AM

kimifelipe

08-11-09, 09:06 AM

bfdtv

08-11-09, 11:13 AM

I thought this thread was about what should be in the new tivo box, and I've been saying what I think that should beMany TiVo users spend 80+% to 90+% of their time watching recorded or time-delayed programs, and if that doesn't describe you, then there may be a better box for your needs. TiVo clearly did not put the same emphasis on channel-surfing and guide-surfing that Moxi and FiOS did with their products. I suspect you'll never be satisfied with the current TiVo if you spend much of your time watching live TV. I do expect TiVo to significantly improve the guide-surfing experience with their next box (16:9 version of Comcast TiVo UI (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegarfield/2126646108/in/set-72157603515035363/)?), but I suspect there will always be better products for that.

If you like to channel surf and/or watch a lot of liveTV, then you should take a look at Moxi. Moxi uses a newer CPU to provide a 16:9 GUI with nicer graphics than the Verizon box, and it has accurate / reliable guide data like the TiVo. Moxi, unlike the TiVo, made liveTV viewing and channel surfing a top priority in their design, with an excellent mini-guide, all sorts of filters, and a longer live buffer. The Moxi costs $799, but that includes a 500GB drive and lifetime subscription. It is a cable-only box, but that doesn't sound like an issue for you.

Moxi won't allow you to transfer recordings, but it sounds like you don't care for that feature unless it can be done at PC-like "speed." That's not going to happen anytime soon with a cable DVR (for reasons described above), although I fully expect the next TiVo to significantly improve throughput.

Fyi: I see you use FiOS. The original TiVo software exhibited some signal compatibility issues with FiOS, whose signal sometimes differed enough from cable companies to cause problems. This resulted in large error counts that cause pixelization; these error counts could also cause transfers to terminate prematurely. Most were able to eliminate these errors with attenuation, but the problem wasn't addressed by TiVo until the 11.0d software. Hence, you could have transfer problems with some recordings made prior to 11.0d.

jmpage2

08-11-09, 12:02 PM

Good points, but I had good luck with my D* box to reliably record programs. And my problem is that to get a box that will reliably record less than 10 movies on it, the tivo is very expensive. Honestly, the D* dvr was actually better as a dvr if you can put up with the unbelievably slow interface.

Speaking of accurate program data, I tried to record a movie on my new tivo on sunday. I had to download it to make room for another recording today, so I did. I get the file and look at it, and the end of the movie was after the end of the recording. So much for reliably recording the whole program. On another movie, I could only download the first 25 min of it. Great, thanks a lot. After multiple attempts is simply will not work. Regarding transfer speeds, fine, you say I can only expect so much, but the fact is that tivo offers program transfer as a "feature" but the implementation is so poor that I am saying it is not a very valuable feature. For the next box, it would be a lot more compelling if we weren't stuck with 1999 networking speeds. Who is impressed with 6 or 7 GB per hour transfer speeds?? Meh.

So, tivo, like any other dvr, is not perfect. And it is more expensive than anything except the Dish dvrs, which you also have to buy up front (my friend is stuck with Dish because of his dvr investment, which sucks because fios is so much better).

Sounds like you think I am a troll, fine. I am a new user and am really trying to like this very expensive box, but really it does not live up to the hype surrounding it. Is it the best dvr to be had? Well, maybe, but if it is, it is by a slim margin for sure. I'm getting the fios dvr to compare head to head against my tivo for a couple of weeks, and then I'll decide. I'd really prefer to own my equipment, but if there's no significant advantage to the tivo, I won't keep it. I'm also just assuming that a better value tivo box is coming up in the next year.

Keep in mind too that unlike many here, I really do not like the tivo interface at all. I really like the fios interface - it is by far the best that I've seen (among Charter, D*, E*, fios, and tivo). The tivo interface is not great, and until you are used to it there are a lot of counter-intuitive things.

I thought this thread was about what should be in the new tivo box, and I've been saying what I think that should be - I don't need to read a defense of the current box and its obvious and occasionally severe limitations.

This thread is for discussion of the next gen TiVo. Not your beefs about the current product.

For the record, it's trivial with Tivo to simply go in and tell it to pad an extra 10 minutes at the end (or beginning) of any program you record, something that's a PITA to do with most other DVRs.

TiVo is not the most expensive DVR option by a long shot. You buy the TiVo box for $299 and pay about the same for lifetime service. If you keep the box for 5 years your total monthly cost is $10 per month, which is less than what many crummy satellite and cable company DVRs get rented to you for.

You also get the benefit of numerous features that are available ONLY on the TiVo, such as Swivel Search, YouTube, Amazon.com downloads, room to room transfers, transfers to a computer, etc.

I'm really tired of having to defend TiVo to you. There are millions of very happy TiVo customers who will happily shell out MORE for the TiVo than for the Dish* box you like so much, and who are interested in what TiVo might bring out this year in the way of new hardware, and would like a place to discuss that free of your heckling.

Obviously TiVo is not for you, so please return it and continue your discussion about it in a different thread. You haven't even owned the box long enough to understand it's basic features and yet you are convinced you must rail on it to see what YOU want in the next version. Many of us have owned these boxes for years, many of us own multiple boxes or have gifted them to our friends and families (who love them).

So please don't try to lecture us on how inferior the product is. We know its strengths and weaknesses and still would take it over any other DVR solution available.

jmpage2

08-11-09, 12:08 PM

As mentioned above, tru2way is NOT critical for Tivo if it can handle VOD/PPV on the big providers via the new interface to Seachange. I agree that speed and a new UI would be nice, but I don't think tru2way is critical if they can properly implement VOD without it. And I agree 100% with bfdtv, reliability and ease of commercial skip are the biggies for me, and Tivo handles this well.

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.

Unless Seachange will also allow a vendor to plug in to the cable network without cable cards, etc, and unless it is going to be ready for lunch in the next 12 months, I still think that Tru-2-Way being in the next Tivo is assured.

john12lewisjl

08-11-09, 12:17 PM

demonfoo

08-11-09, 07:26 PM

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.

Unless Seachange will also allow a vendor to plug in to the cable network without cable cards, etc, and unless it is going to be ready for lunch in the next 12 months, I still think that Tru-2-Way being in the next Tivo is assured.

Seachange is a VOD system provider for cable companies. All the announcement means is that they're coming up with a way for TiVo owners to watch VoD content from their existing provider using some new functionality specifically for the TiVos (since they don't have two-way communication features at present over the cable network). It is not going to eliminate CableCARDs (and neither will tru2way for that matter, they're here to stay for now). I don't really know what the timeframe is for availability, but hopefully it'll be within that sort of timeframe - it's just extending their existing system to leverage TiVo, possibly using the IP network as a replacement backchannel (I'm guessing here, I don't have any special knowledge of what they're doing).

slowbiscuit

08-12-09, 09:50 AM

I am not familiar with Seachange, as it took me a full year to digest Tru-2-Way.
I put a link to the Tivo Seachange press release in my prior post (and google is your friend). I'm sorry that you didn't bother to read it.

Thanks for helping with the spoon-feeding, demonfoo.

jmpage2

08-12-09, 12:35 PM

I put a link to the Tivo Seachange press release in my prior post (and google is your friend). I'm sorry that you didn't bother to read it.

Thanks for helping with the spoon-feeding, demonfoo.

Let's spoon feed some back, eh?

By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly deploying TiVo set-top boxes that seamlessly integrate VOD in a single, intuitive TiVo interface,” said Tom Rogers, TiVo’s president and chief executive officer.

I'm pretty sure when I read this it indicates that Seachange is going to be for providers who are not pursuing a Tru2Way OCAP model. The problem is that most of the providers already ARE pursuing Tru2Way with OCAP. Comcast definitely is as they have launched 10 beta markets for Tru-2-Way and one of my neighbors has a Panasonic Plasma with Tru2Way.

Maybe Rogers and a few other carriers will be the only ones pursuing this?

videobruce

08-16-09, 09:50 AM

TiVo has these "refurbished" DVR's they are selling;
https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do?type=renewed&WT.ac=tivohome_renewed_199_img&%2520WT.mc_id=tivohome_renewed_199

Other than over 2x difference in price, a slightly different remote and the larger HDD, what justfies the cost difference and what series are these?

jmpage2

08-16-09, 11:13 AM

bfdtv

08-16-09, 11:43 AM

TiVo has these "refirbused" DVR's they are selling;
https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do?type=renewed&WT.ac=tivohome_renewed_199_img&%2520WT.mc_id=tivohome_renewed_199

Other than over 2x difference in price, a slightly different remote and the larger HDD, what justfies the cost difference and what series are these?The TivoHD was released in July 2007. The TivoHD XL was released in September, 2008; it's the same hardware and software as the TivoHD, but includes a 1TB drive and a backlit remote. You only save $50 by buying refurbished, because Amazon.com sells both models (new) for $50 more.

Discussion/speculation in this thread surrounds a future model. Such a model is likely to include a newer, faster processor to accomodate a higher-resolution, more graphically rich UI, as well as higher throughput between TiVos and TiVo->PC.

Tivo's Broadcom CPU = 450 DMIPS
latest Broadcom CPU = 1000 DMIPS (found in Moxi, Dish ViP922, Motorola DCX)
next-gen Broadcom CPU = 1500 DMIPS

If TiVo elects to release a new model based on latest Broadcom CPU, we could see it between now and January. If they decide to wait for the next-generation, then it could be 6-12 months away. TiVo spent $121 million on DVR R&D in the past 24 months -- roughly 1/3 of all subscription revenue -- so they are clearly working on something.

videobruce

08-16-09, 01:06 PM

The page didn't specify which series they were.
The faster processor will benefit exactly how/where?

(typo corrected)

bfdtv

08-16-09, 03:05 PM

The page didn't specify which series they were.
The faster processor will benefit exactly how/where?The current and next-generation Broadcom CPUs support quad-tuner designs. I'll be surprised if TiVo goes that route, because it is not yet possible to produce cost-effective design with 4x QAM/ATSC/NTSC tuners. I expect TiVo will use newer components to cut costs (and therefore price) on a dual-tuner unit. They might hit $199 MSRP for 320GB capacity if they are willing to take the same loss on the initial sale that they do with the existing box.

The most noticeable improvement on a "Series4" is likely to be a UI refresh. Like DirecTV's DVRs, the current TivoHD model uses a 4:3 SD interface scaled and stretched across a 16:9 HD background. User interface responsiveness is much improved since release (see HD video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1)), but it still lags compared to Windows Media Center, where virtually everything is instantaneous. I don't believe the current TiVo CPU is fast enough to support a graphics-intensive HD interface with a high-level of responsiveness, though it could probably support a more limited 16:9 UI.

The new and next-generation CPUs offer significantly improved 2D performance, plus 3D graphics with OpenGL 1.0. A key feature of these CPUs is Flash Lite (http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/) support. TiVo can do much more in Flash (with much less effort) than they can with their current architecture where everything is written in C. Earlier this year, there was a TiVo job posting for a "flash expert" with this bit:

TiVo designs and develops Flash Lite applications. It’s all about balancing user experience, technical capability and time-to-market. Easy? No, but we make it look that way for our customers. If you’ve shipped large and complex Flash applications (preferably on an embedded system), we’d like to talk to you.TiVo has apparently filled several other Flash-related positions. Their web site (http://www.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qMW9Vfww&page=Job%20Description&j=oUSbVfwC) currently has two Flash-related job postings for a "Flash engineer" and a "Senior Software Engineer - Flash/Actionscript." Excerpt from the responsibilities:

Be responsible for architecting and developing new FlashLite applications with a large team of developers.
I don't know whether the current Broadcom CPU -- the first to get Flash support -- provides the necessary performance for a high-definition, graphics-intensive Flash UI. That capability may not come until the next-generation BCM7410 is available in 2010.

Besides greater CPU and 2D/3D performance, Broadcom's next-generation SoC (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s358252) adds 1080p60 output, with deinterlace of 1080i into 1080p60 and pulldown of 1080p24 into 1080p60. Other new features include dynamic power management for improved energy efficiency, an integrated 1394a controller, and an integrated MoCA 1.1 modem to allow 100+Mbps networking over coax without the need for ethernet cables or wireless. None of these features are integrated with their current CPU.

jmpage2

08-16-09, 08:00 PM

That is a fantastic summary bfdtv.

My concern is that TiVo has been working harder on their rumored DirecTV box than they have on Series 4 boxes for current cable customers.

Maybe we will see a DirecTV TiVo box launch this winter with a Series 4 launching next spring.

Do you know if the MoCA modem technology will allow for the use of the coaxial cabling for 100mbps ethernet at the same time it is being utilized for normal baseband deployment for cable service? If so that would be pretty cool. You could have reasonable speed TiVo to TiVo transfer without installation of any new ethernet cable runs.

videobruce

08-17-09, 10:13 AM

Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA®) What next??
The next thing you know someone is going to come up a way to send data over power lines. :eek: :D

If that stretched SD UI would be reduced to a 4x3 interface, woulkd that reduce the load on the processor? I have read a few user comments about how great TiVo's UI is, but according to what you posted, that's highly debatable.

bfdtv

08-17-09, 03:13 PM

Do you know if the MoCA modem technology will allow for the use of the coaxial cabling for 100mbps ethernet at the same time it is being utilized for normal baseband deployment for cable service? If so that would be pretty cool. You could have reasonable speed TiVo to TiVo transfer without installation of any new ethernet cable runs.Yes, it will. Cable networks use the first 860MHz on the cable. MoCA uses a 50MHz band in the 950-1150MHz range.

Verizon FiOS already has MoCA integrated in its boxes. That's how they are able to communicate directly for MRV without any extra cables. TiVo couldn't use MoCA for Internet connectivity unless the user connected a MoCA adapter (with a coax feed) to their router, but it would certainly simplify MRV.

If that stretched SD UI would be reduced to a 4x3 interface, woulkd that reduce the load on the processor?
If you want, you can display the UI in 4:3, but that doesn't make a difference. I do think you need to consider it in context. The Tivo UI can't compare to the responsiveness of Windows Media Center on a multi-GHz PC, but it is responsive compared to most cable DVRs, and it's a speed demon compared to the current software on the DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23 DVRs.

If you watched the Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1), be aware that any loading lag with the circular animation is Youtube's fault; that is not part of the capture. This may not be obvious to those that rarely use Youtube. If you have a slow connection to the Youtube site, allow your browser to build up the buffer before viewing.

I have read a few user comments about how great TiVo's UI is, but according to what you posted, that's highly debatable.Most people buy a TiVo for its usability, unmatched reliability for digital recording, and ease of skipping commercials. Others buy it because they want internal or external storage expansion, or the ability to download recordings directly to their computer. Few people buy a TiVo because they think it has a "pretty" interface.

Until six months ago, virtually every cable and satellite DVR used the same CPU as the TiVo to display a 4:3 UI across a 4:3 or 16:9 background. The only exception to that was Dish Network's ViP622/ViP722 DVRs, which feature an upconverted 16:9 SD EPG. TiVo probably kept the existing UI in part for performance reasons, and in part because it would've required a major re-engineering effort to produce a new 16:9 UI which would still be constrained by existing hardware.

A faster CPU from Broadcom just started shipping in quantity this year, which is one of the reasons for renewed interest in a new model. Thus far, the Dish Network ViP722K, Dish Network ViP922, Moxi, and the Motorola DCX are the only DVRs with the new CPU. Of those, only the ViP922 (screenshot (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/ilovehdtv/Other/ViP922/vip922_guide1.jpg)) and Moxi have an actual HD interface.

TiVo sought feedback on this new UI (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/29/potential-new-tivo-user-interface-shown-on-video/) last year, and they used a variation of it for the Internet-connected TiVo Search. On existing hardware, this TiVo Search UI lags (video demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPirnN_z9Cw&hd=1)); it isn't nearly nearly as elegant or smooth as what you see the first link.

jmpage2

08-17-09, 05:25 PM

The Engadget videos showing the new UI give me hope. That's exactly what I would expect to be getting in a Series 4 unit, a complete UI redesign that is optimized to take advantage of the extra screen resolution of 720P and 1080P sets as well the larger screen sizes in most newer model televisions.

I really do hope we see an announcement this year. We do know that TiVo took the Engadget feedback very seriously (they had their head of marketing respond directly), and I hope they realize that they need to ship a product this year, before other products start to take a real bite out of their market.

videobruce

08-18-09, 10:11 AM

bfdtv; That's suppose to be slow (1st link)?? :confused:
Surely seems fast to me. BTW, the 2nd video didn't seem much different.

How about channel changes as in 'surfing'? Does it have the usual DVR delay?

jmpage2

08-18-09, 10:32 AM

Those videos are simulations. The slowness that he's referring to is the new search screen that looks like those simulations running on the current series 3 hardware. It is painfully slow.

To get speed like that seen in the video will definitely require new hardware capabilities.

BenJF3

08-18-09, 07:15 PM

I breezed through this thread and am awaiting a fully functional Tivo Series 4 like everyone else. I'm stuck with my Time Warner DVR and SARA software as of now. Navigator software is being tested at this time. All Tivo has to do is drop a box with PPV/VOD support and I'm there. I really would like to see them add quad tuning and be willing to pay for it or at the very least allow for dual tuner PLUS OTA.

abyssrules

08-18-09, 08:18 PM

How much do these run tivo series 4 ben ?

scsiraid

08-18-09, 08:43 PM

How much do these run tivo series 4 ben ?

They dont exist.. yet..

BenJF3

08-18-09, 09:38 PM

Yes, they are vaporware as of right now. Hopefully, Navigator will deliver the goods. However, I'm keeping a watchful eye on Tivo and Moxi because I have no doubt that when they deliver a two way capable box at some point it will crush anything TWC has.

humdinger70

08-19-09, 01:14 PM

They dont exist.. yet..

Correct. I started this thread because there had been speculation (still is) about a possible Series 4 (which would include the tuning adapter for systems that use SDV) and I felt there was need for a place for discussion on it.

Note that this is clearly marked "Unofficial" since there is currently no actual product out there.

BenJF3

08-19-09, 01:30 PM

Hopefully there will be product at some point! It's certainly needed with the lackluster garbage provider DVR's out there.

bfdtv

08-27-09, 07:27 PM

Transcript of TiVo's conference call on August 26 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/158649-tivo-inc-f2q10-qtr-end-7-31-09-earnings-call-transcript):

From page 2:
As part of this deal, TiVo and Best Buy are together working toward the development of new user interface features for TiVo DVRs sold by Best Buy, which will build upon TiVo’s seamless integration of broadcast, cable, and broadband content on the television set…

As proof of their commitment, beginning early next year Best Buy will be putting substantial marketing muscle behind this relationship as newly innovative features are rolled out.

From page 6:
I would say the essence of that [Best Buy] deal is geared toward early next year, where some product improvements and developments that we will be putting forward will be able to be wrapped into the overall strategic marketing relationship with Best Buy, so the guts of the relationship will really get under way then.

Earlier this month, RCN also indicated that it would deploy a new TiVo DVR with increased capacity in January, 2010 as its default DVR. RCN's Director of Video Operations said this was not the same product currently sold at retail

Update: RCN is now saying the DVR will be available mid-1Q, in February.

mfogarty5

08-30-09, 10:08 PM

I would not be surprised to see TiVo exit the direct retail business and rely entirely on Best Buy for retail sales with the next model. TiVo's retail sales are down and exiting the direct retail business would save them a considerable sum. They can leverage Best Buy's advertising power, supply chain management and other infrastructure that already exists.

P.S. bfdtv - you are the best poster on avs. I always enjoy reading your posts on DVRs.

zoey67

08-31-09, 08:34 AM

Wait, hold on I could have sworn people have been able to use tivo receivers with directv...can someone confirm or unconfirm this?

bfdtv

08-31-09, 11:42 AM

Wait, hold on I could have sworn people have been able to use tivo receivers with directv...can someone confirm or unconfirm this?DirecTV's first DVR was based on TiVo. The "DirecTiVo" hardware and software was designed by TiVo. When News Corp took over, they stopped deploying "DirecTiVos" and hired NDS (a News Corp subsidiary and TiVo competitor) to design new hardware and software. DirecTV still uses that NDS software for its SD DVRs, but has since moved to development of their own software for the HD DVRs.

After News Corp sold DirecTV, the new owners (Liberty Media) struck a deal with TiVo to create a new DirecTiVo. This will be new and improved TiVo software that runs on DirecTV's own DVR hardware. This software is expected to debut with (or shortly after) the release of DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware platform in early 2010. Customers will be given the choice whether they want the TiVo or DirecTV DVR software.

ubercool

09-03-09, 06:34 AM

I find it very humorous that this anticipation thread started in December 2007. I guess TiVo is like Heinz ketchup...anticipation. :D

dpcs

09-03-09, 02:49 PM

Does anyone know what series the rcn/tivo box will be? It could be released as early as January!

pweissma

09-14-09, 09:43 AM

jmpage2

09-14-09, 09:58 AM

Yes, anticipation. I check into this thread from time to time to see if there is any good news. I didn't get a lifetime subscription with my Tivo HD in anticipation of only using it for a year or two, expecting a Series4 or perhaps twc offernig tivo. Probably a bad decision.

One of my Series 3 is on a 3 year subscription, the other one is year to year, for the same reasons.

I was reluctant to buy lifetime plans when I fully anticipated updating to Series4 hardware within a couple of years.

BenJF3

09-14-09, 11:08 AM

Well, I'm not spending anything on a Tivo until they deploy a Series 4 with the features I want. At this pace, Moxi may beat them to market.

demonfoo

09-14-09, 04:52 PM

Well, I'm not spending anything on a Tivo until they deploy a Series 4 with the features I want. At this pace, Moxi may beat them to market.

I'll believe that when I see it - especially after Digeo developing several products and unceremoniously dumping them just shy of retail availability.

slowbiscuit

09-15-09, 07:39 AM

Not only that, they just released the Moxi HD box this spring. Kinda doubt you'd see a new box that would cannibalize the old one so soon.

BenJF3

09-15-09, 07:55 AM

Guys, I was being a little saracastic. Moxi makes a decent unit, but they just got SDV support. I expect Tivo to beat them to market with the next gen full two way box.

hessel holland

09-17-09, 09:54 AM

DirecTV's first DVR was based on TiVo. The "

After News Corp sold DirecTV, the new owners (Liberty Media) struck a deal with TiVo to create a new DirecTiVo. This will be new and improved TiVo software that runs on DirecTV's own DVR hardware. This software is expected to debut with (or shortly after) the release of DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware platform in early 2010. Customers will be given the choice whether they want the TiVo or DirecTV DVR software.

Yo bfdtv...is it your understanding that the Tivo software will be available the current DirecTV HD dvr's or just the next generation hardware?

b_scott

11-04-09, 01:34 PM

any news?

jmpage2

11-04-09, 01:36 PM

None, which means no new Series 4 this year.

It will be another six months at a minimum.

TiVo is squandering their good will with me with these shenanigans. The Series 3 barely does what I need it to do and looks OLD. I am ready to put up my dollars for a better machine but in two years TiVo hasn't built one.

b_scott

11-04-09, 01:39 PM

yeah I'm ready for a machine that has HD menus on an HD machine, as well as fast responsiveness and at least 100 Hours of HD video space built in. Oh, and wireless N built in, please?

jacksonian

11-07-09, 10:31 AM

bfdtv

11-07-09, 10:54 AM

I share you guys' frustration with nothing new from TiVo. I'd kill for a Tru2Way TiVo 4 with updated features and interface.

However, until someone comes out with a product that's better than my S3 or THD, they'll keep my business.Manufacturers (including TiVo) are waiting for cable companies to widely deploy their tru2way software. Some people think of tru2way as some feature that works on its own, when it is anything but. tru2way is all about the ability to run a special version of the cable company software. Until that software is made available by the cable co, tru2way capability does absolutely nothing.

Time Warner and Brighthouse are the only cable companies with widely deployed tru2way software, and until very recently, that software was specific to their own equipment. Last month, Comcast announced that it would make tru2way software available in all markets by the end of 2009. Assuming Comcast follows through, we should see a number of tru2way products shown at CES in January.

jacksonian

11-08-09, 08:46 PM

bfdtv, do you have a wild guess as to when we could even hope to see a TiVo using Tru2Way on a Time Warner or Comcast system? 2011?

bfdtv

12-30-09, 05:09 PM

bfdtv, do you have a wild guess as to when we could even hope to see a TiVo using Tru2Way on a Time Warner or Comcast system? 2011?No, I do not.

This was posted to TCF today:

I just received a TiVo HD via the "Upgrade" program today, and inside the box I received instructions on how to "Setup TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL"

It's instructional picture has a different back panel picture that isn't the HD or the Series 3. It features only one Cablecard slot and says it's for M-Cards only. It also seems a bit shorter than usual.
I'm putting up a post on my blog with a PDF link to the scanned document.

Here's a teaser:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kvhi4iOZRx1qzxrhl.jpg

Note the single M-CARD slot on the back, and the absence of s-video and RG11 (phone) connections. It still has separate cable and antenna inputs.

jmpage2

12-30-09, 05:38 PM

This is interesting information but also a bit disappointing.

It seems far more likely that this points to a cost reduced Series-3 unit than the Series-4 unit many of us are waiting for.

TiVo in the last 12 months filed briefs with the FTC that call for the eventual death of cable card in favor of a gateway solution.

It is likely that such a gateway would look like a cable box and would communicate with the TiVo directly over coax so it is POSSIBLE that a Series 4 box could be introduced in the coming months that will support cable card in the short term with an eventual migration to some kind of gateway.

Here's hoping (against hope).

hdtvfan2005

12-31-09, 04:51 AM

The new Tivo premiere doesn't have Coaxial audio so you'll need an adaptor if you choose to use that interface.

qz3fwd

12-31-09, 02:59 PM

I'm probably in the minority here, but I would really appreciate the 1394 interface to either connect my D-VHS decks and/or
to plug external Firewire HDD enclosures in to playback the dvd ifo's/transport streams/m2ts's.:D

The current and next-generation Broadcom CPUs support quad-tuner designs. I'll be surprised if TiVo goes that route, because it is not yet possible to produce cost-effective design with 4x QAM/ATSC/NTSC tuners. I expect TiVo will use newer components to cut costs (and therefore price) on a dual-tuner unit. They might hit $199 MSRP for 320GB capacity if they are willing to take the same loss on the initial sale that they do with the existing box.

The most noticeable improvement on a "Series4" is likely to be a UI refresh. Like DirecTV's DVRs, the current TivoHD model uses a 4:3 SD interface scaled and stretched across a 16:9 HD background. User interface responsiveness is much improved since release (see HD video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1)), but it still lags compared to Windows Media Center, where virtually everything is instantaneous. I don't believe the current TiVo CPU is fast enough to support a graphics-intensive HD interface with a high-level of responsiveness, though it could probably support a more limited 16:9 UI.

The new and next-generation CPUs offer significantly improved 2D performance, plus 3D graphics with OpenGL 1.0. A key feature of these CPUs is Flash Lite (http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/) support. TiVo can do much more in Flash (with much less effort) than they can with their current architecture where everything is written in C. Earlier this year, there was a TiVo job posting for a "flash expert" with this bit:

TiVo has apparently filled several other Flash-related positions. Their web site (http://www.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qMW9Vfww&page=Job%20Description&j=oUSbVfwC) currently has two Flash-related job postings for a "Flash engineer" and a "Senior Software Engineer - Flash/Actionscript." Excerpt from the responsibilities:

I don't know whether the current Broadcom CPU -- the first to get Flash support -- provides the necessary performance for a high-definition, graphics-intensive Flash UI. That capability may not come until the next-generation BCM7410 is available in 2010.

Besides greater CPU and 2D/3D performance, Broadcom's next-generation SoC (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s358252) adds 1080p60 output, with deinterlace of 1080i into 1080p60 and pulldown of 1080p24 into 1080p60. Other new features include dynamic power management for improved energy efficiency, an integrated 1394a controller, and an integrated MoCA 1.1 modem to allow 100+Mbps networking over coax without the need for ethernet cables or wireless. None of these features are integrated with their current CPU.

hdtvfan2005

01-03-10, 09:17 PM

I'm probably in the minority here, but I would really appreciate the 1394 interface to either connect my D-VHS decks and/or
to plug external Firewire HDD enclosures in to playback the dvd ifo's/transport streams/m2ts's.:D

No plans for Firewire as Tivo want's the FCC to give them a waiver for not having to implement it. Expect more companies to stop putting in Firewire in their HD cable boxes.

jmpage2

01-07-10, 11:28 AM

Another year, another CES, another lack of anything new from TiVo.

b_scott

01-07-10, 11:41 AM

slowbiscuit

01-07-10, 12:42 PM

jmpage2

01-07-10, 02:33 PM

If they don't deliver something wrt tru2way this year, then I think they want to get out of the hardware business, at least at the 'premium DVR' level. The new boxes at BestBuy look to be cost-reduced models for the masses, and I don't care about DirectTivo.

Which is good, but not good enough for the rest of us, who apparently haven't been buying enough to keep developing them.

You might be right. Everyone wants to be in the software business and everyone views dealing with hardware as a PITA and a money losing prospect.

What this might mean for the future of TiVo is the discontinuation of TiVo branded boxes and a shift to 3rd party boxes from the cable co's, etc. Which would be a shame, as the entire point of cable card was to allow customers to have their own network neutral boxes that they owned and weren't forced to lease garbage from their provider.

I really have been expecting great things from TiVo over the past 12 months, I was certain we would see a TiVo with a native HD interface, based on a much faster processor that would start to add increasing amounts of value add services (Pandora, HULU, etc).

Unfortunately is not meant to be it seems. Time to start looking into what Moxi is doing.

bfdtv

01-07-10, 04:20 PM

You might be right. Everyone wants to be in the software business and everyone views dealing with hardware as a PITA and a money losing prospect.

What this might mean for the future of TiVo is the discontinuation of TiVo branded boxes and a shift to 3rd party boxes from the cable co's, etc.TiVo has already said a new box is coming to Best Buy in early 2010, and their CEO reiterated as much a few weeks ago, so it is premature to talk about the discontinuation of TiVo branded hardware.

There are many reasons for not announcing at CES. As soon as the product is announced and demonstrated, sales fall on the existing product. That's not something you want until the new product is ready to go. You've also got all those Christmas buyers still within their 30-day return and cancellation period.

Some companies like Apple don't announce anything at CES for fear of being "drowned out." If you only announce major new products every few years, that's not something you want.

I really have been expecting great things from TiVo over the past 12 months, I was certain we would see a TiVo with a native HD interface, based on a much faster processor that would start to add increasing amounts of value add services (Pandora, HULU, etc).At this point, it may be a good sign that Tivo didn't announce a new product at CES for immediate release. Any product shipping today would be built with components available in volume as of October. As of that date, Broadcom hadn't shipped any new high-performance SoCs for cable+OTA DVRs in the previous 10 months. That means the TiVo Premiere, if it were shipping today with OTA+cable support, would've used the same BCM7400 or BCM7405 found in the Moxi, Motorola DCX, Dish ViP722K, and Samsung DVRs released in the first half of 2009.

Those DVR SoCs offer roughly double the performance of the SoC in the TivoHD, but they also fall well short of the next-generation BCM7410 and BCM7420 solutions announced at CES last year (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s358252) (PDF (http://www.dianziw.com/upload/20092153651693.pdf)). These are the successors to the BCM7400 and BCM7405 in the Moxi and Motorola DCX; they add 50% greater CPU performance, 1080p60 output, and "PC class 2D and OpenGL 3D graphics." They support up to six tuners while streaming HD to another TV, and support four tuners while streaming HD to at least three extenders simultaneously over MoCA.

Broadcom said on Tuesday (Jan 5) that these next-generation SoCs were now in production and shipping to customers, after sampling for much of the past year. Once a new SoC is shipping in volume, it usually takes at least 2-3 months for products based on that solution to hit the market.

Broadcom also just announced (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s434164) a new, low-cost DVR SoC with 1080p60 output. This SoC offers a slower MIPS processor (likely comparable to the BCM7400), half the memory bandwidth, and no MoCA, so its tuner and multi-room capabilities are much more limited. It looks like a "lite" version of the BCM7410/BCM7420 for dual-tuner products that stream HD to one room. It's not clear when this chip will ship in volume.

Since TiVo waited this long, does it really make sense to ship a DVR with last year's tech just after it was replaced with this year's tech? We already know that more CPU and 2D/3D performance is desirable, based on reports of Moxi's performance (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17820376#post17820376). The triple-tuner Moxi appears to deliver comparable responsiveness to the TiVo, but with a compelling HD UI in place of an upconverted SD UI. I know that some users are looking for more than that; many want responsiveness more comparable to a PC, but without the PC.

jmpage2

01-07-10, 05:15 PM

I'm afraid I have a much more pessimistic view of things. The Best Buy partnership seems like a last gasp effort to increase the numbers of units being sold at retail. I expect we are going to see a box that is essentially Series 3 with some additional Best Buy branding and some additional Best Buy centric features such as an online store, direct download and rental purchases, etc.

Certainly not something that most of us at AVS want to see.

As to availability of components, if TiVo is going to continue waiting for more advanced parts we are all going to be waiting a very long time. Moxi and others have already demonstrated very nice looking and quite speedy interfaces running on hardware that was released almost a year ago.

We all know that it takes months to develop for a new platform so even if TiVo has had beta silicon in their hands for the past couple of months it would be many more months until we see a product built on it.

Television viewing is undergoing a dramatic shift over the next 12-24 months as more and more devices are internet connected and don't necessarily need a satellite or digital cable connection to deliver rich content.

Being the pioneers that they are I had really hoped to see TiVo at the forefront of this new frontier but apparently they would rather gimp along with their increasingly outdated box.

I love my TiVo units and have dumped thousands of dollars into TiVo through device purchases and software subscriptions. Increasingly though I feel that they just don't get it any more and will use their continued shrinking pool of subscribers as the excuse they need to more or less stop releasing new products.

I would have expected at least a TiVo Series 3.5 by now, something with the current interface that doesn't take 10 minutes to do a TiVo Search.

bfdtv

01-07-10, 08:14 PM

As to availability of components, if TiVo is going to continue waiting for more advanced parts we are all going to be waiting a very long time. Moxi and others have already demonstrated very nice looking and quite speedy interfaces running on hardware that was released almost a year ago.At some point, a CE manufacturer has to take what is available and run with it.

The parts in the Moxi and DCX became available in volume around this time last year. TiVo and DirecTV opted not to refresh their products based on those SoCs. Each had good reasons for that, I'm sure. If TiVo were simply going to refresh their existing hardware with a SoC to run the current software, they could've done that nine months ago.

TiVo has an agreement to supply TiVo software for DirecTV DVRs through 2015. I believe TiVo wants its next DVR to provide equal or better performance than the next-generation DirecTV DVR platform, so they can use the same core software on both boxes. Both TiVo and DirecTV have said new boxes are coming in early 2010, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I expect both to be very similar in terms of hardware capability.

We all know that it takes months to develop for a new platform so even if TiVo has had beta silicon in their hands for the past couple of months it would be many more months until we see a product built on it.Broadcom announced the BCM7410 and BCM7420 SoCs a year ago, and said they were "sampling to early access customers." Now, after 12 months, they claim to be shipping the final product.

Television viewing is undergoing a dramatic shift over the next 12-24 months as more and more devices are internet connected and don't necessarily need a satellite or digital cable connection to deliver rich content.Don't you think that makes greater CPU and 2D/3D performance more important, not less?

Last year, Broadcom announced that the BCM7400 and BCM7405 were their first SoCs with the power to run Adobe Flash. It is entirely possible that both run Flash, but not with the performance necessary to support a compelling Flash UI, like that used by the latest Boxee beta (http://lifehacker.com/5442995/first-look-at-the-boxee-beta).

TWinbrook46636

01-07-10, 08:43 PM

Broadcom also just announced (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s434164) a new, low-cost DVR SoC with 1080p60 output. This SoC offers a slower MIPS processor (likely comparable to the BCM7400), half the memory bandwidth, and no MoCA, so its tuner and multi-room capabilities are much more limited. It looks like a "lite" version of the BCM7410/BCM7420 for dual-tuner products that stream HD to one room.

Gee, I wonder which one TiVo will use? ;) There is no way TiVo will use the more expensive 7410/7420 in the TiVo Premier which is an exercise in cost-cutting. It would explain why nothing was ready for CES too.

jmpage2

01-08-10, 12:22 AM

At some point, a CE manufacturer has to take what is available and run with it.

The parts in the Moxi and DCX became available in volume around this time last year. TiVo and DirecTV opted not to refresh their products based on those SoCs. Each had good reasons for that, I'm sure. If TiVo were simply going to refresh their existing hardware with a SoC to run the current software, they could've done that nine months ago.

TiVo has an agreement to supply TiVo software for DirecTV DVRs through 2015. I believe TiVo wants its next DVR to provide equal or better performance than the next-generation DirecTV DVR platform, so they can use the same core software on both boxes. Both TiVo and DirecTV have said new boxes are coming in early 2010, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I expect both to be very similar in terms of hardware capability.

Broadcom announced the BCM7410 and BCM7420 SoCs a year ago, and said they were "sampling to early access customers." Now, after 12 months, they claim to be shipping the final product.

Don't you think that makes greater CPU and 2D/3D performance more important, not less?

Last year, Broadcom announced that the BCM7400 and BCM7405 were their first SoCs with the power to run Adobe Flash. It is entirely possible that both run Flash, but not with the performance necessary to support a compelling Flash UI, like that used by the latest Boxee beta (http://lifehacker.com/5442995/first-look-at-the-boxee-beta).

Considering that TiVo seems to be tryhing to get to the lowest price point possible on their equipment I don't really see them basing a new Series-4 platform off of the latest and greatest.

They seemed to have a hell of a hard time moving Series 3 boxes until they got down into the $199 or so price range so a $600 TiVo with 320GB hard drive just really isn't going to cut it.

Maybe TiVo should just come out with software we can run on our own boxes, then they don't have to deal with the hardware part at all.

slowbiscuit

01-08-10, 10:11 AM

They already tried that - they farmed out the Tivo interface to Nero for the LiquidTV PC product, who in turned farmed it out to a Russian crew that released a bugfest. It was recently discontinued after being on the market for little more than a year, just like what happened with ReplayTV PC Edition (Replay's last-gasp attempt to release an HD version of their interface on PC).

The big problem is lack of CableCard support, again. Well, that and releasing a crappy product that few wanted.

spocko

01-08-10, 12:23 PM

There is no way TiVo will use the more expensive 7410/7420 in the TiVo Premier which is an exercise in cost-cutting.

And you reached that conclusion based on ... a leaked picture of the back of the unit? The back of the box doesn't tell you what's inside. Let's wait for more info before we make any judgments.

TWinbrook46636

01-08-10, 11:08 PM

And you reached that conclusion based on ... a leaked picture of the back of the unit? The back of the box doesn't tell you what's inside. Let's wait for more info before we make any judgments.

No, I based it on what TiVo has been doing the past couple years. I expect them to go the cheapest route available to them.

Hakemon

01-11-10, 02:58 AM

Speed Daemon

01-11-10, 06:45 AM

Another year, another CES, another lack of anything new from TiVo.
It looks to me like TiVo is in trouble. They've resorted to doing forced advertising and other things that are the antithesis of the philosophy that led me to TiVo in the first place. If they continue down this path, they'll lose me as a customer.

After socking me with a steep $600 price for a pair of now useless TiVo 2 DT boxes, with the lure of transferring my lifetime subscriptions, I found that I had to spend another $600 just a month later to get the lifetime subscriptions transferred to HD TiVo units. After I spent $1200 to keep my 2x$200 lifetime subscriptions, they added insult to injury by once again offering the lifetime subscription! Not cool...

Face it, the only things TiVo have going for it are the program guide and the remote. There are free, open source program guide projects, and I doubt that TiVo could withstand a long patent fight over an ergonomic remote. Write them off and move on...

BenJF3

01-11-10, 07:06 AM

Moxi is really making stride too. The only downside I see for Moxi right now compared to Tivo is the lack of an OTA tuner. Since both don't offer two way yet, I will remain waiting. I'm not going to drop big money on a box that would be purchased with the intent of replacing. For the time being my piece of crap Time Warner DVR will do.

jmpage2

01-11-10, 09:57 AM

It looks to me like TiVo is in trouble. They've resorted to doing forced advertising and other things that are the antithesis of the philosophy that led me to TiVo in the first place. If they continue down this path, they'll lose me as a customer.

After socking me with a steep $600 price for a pair of now useless TiVo 2 DT boxes, with the lure of transferring my lifetime subscriptions, I found that I had to spend another $600 just a month later to get the lifetime subscriptions transferred to HD TiVo units. After I spent $1200 to keep my 2x$200 lifetime subscriptions, they added insult to injury by once again offering the lifetime subscription! Not cool...

Face it, the only things TiVo have going for it are the program guide and the remote. There are free, open source program guide projects, and I doubt that TiVo could withstand a long patent fight over an ergonomic remote. Write them off and move on...

The primary TiVo features I still rely on are box to box transfer of recordings and the TiVo Suggestions feature, which my family really enjoys.

I don't *wish* harm on TiVo and I definitely don't want them to fail. I am however also very concerned that they are running out of gas.

jmpage2

01-11-10, 09:57 AM

I was going to purchase a Tivo this weekend. I take it I should wait now?

I'm using a regular 4250HDC cable box from Bright House here in Orlando, and it SUCKS. Locks up, reboots by itself, asks me if I want to continue watching a channel and if I don't find the remote in time, picture goes black. All foolish. Oh, and not a DVR.

There's no reason to wait. TiVo showed no product so anything new is months and months away.

We might see a cost reduced or new TiVo in a few months but I don't know that I'd wait on it for a really long time.

waltzonice

01-11-10, 11:18 AM

I'm tired of waiting for the new Tivo... decided to go "cheap" and bought the DTVpal at Sears.com this weekend while they had a sale. I only have OTA -- no cable or satellite.

bfdtv

01-11-10, 03:41 PM

There's no reason to wait. TiVo showed no product so anything new is months and months away.

We might see a cost reduced or new TiVo in a few months but I don't know that I'd wait on it for a really long time.TiVo told some CES attendees that they had planned to show something new, but weren't quite ready.

Last month, RCN said the rollout of their "different from current retail" TiVo DVR with a 250-320GB drive was delayed from early January to "mid 1st quarter" (i.e. mid/late Feb). If the RCN TiVo debuts in six weeks and looks just like the current TiVo, then I'll agree that no new box is expected soon.

jmpage2

01-11-10, 03:54 PM

TiVo told some CES attendees that they had planned to show something new, but weren't quite ready.

Last month, RCN said the rollout of their "different from current retail" TiVo DVR with a 250-320GB drive was delayed from early January to "mid 1st quarter" (i.e. mid/late Feb). If the RCN TiVo debuts in six weeks and looks just like the current TiVo, then I'll agree that no new box is expected soon.

In previous years TiVo has shown off software that was months away from being ready, so I don't quite understand what the delay would be, other than worry about impacting current sales.

I'm not sure what/who RCN is so can't comment there.

I can understand TiVo being in a tight spot. Do they launch series-4 on Cable Card even though Cable Card is doomed? Do they hold off on series-4 for another 12-18 months until the next standard is approved and adopted?

Do they abandon retail entirely and go towards partnerships with other companies (DTV, etc)?

Bottom line though is that as a consumer who has spent thousands with TiVo I expect them to do better.

Take a look at the demos of the Boxee Box and the ability to find content from all over the place and look at the Series-3 and what it is capable of and it's easy to see where this is headed. Either TiVo gets something truly revolutionary out there or they are going to see massive defection from their expensive services.

Hakemon

01-11-10, 03:59 PM

But then if Cable Card is doomed, that means it'll take my cable company 5 years to adopt something new..

I mean, the cable box Bright House gave me, the 4250HDC, is a cable card box.

jmpage2

01-11-10, 04:02 PM

Cable card is not doomed per se, but Tru2Way implementations for OCAP appear to be dead. Last year there were dozens of products shown off that were Tru2Way capable and I saw nothing of it this year from CES.

Something has to replace cable card or the cable companies run the risk of pushing their customers away towards direct internet delivery of content, which is absolutely something they are terrified of. Put it this way, if Google announced next week that they had inked deals with 30 TV networks for direct delivery of their content you would see shares of Comcast and others down 40%. The market is ripe for a new distribution model for TV and the only thing keeping the cable companies entrenched are their expensive lobbyists.

You should be able to purchase any TV or DVR box, plug it in, get it authorized on your local cable network and be able to access not only programming but pay-per-view, on-demand services, etc.

Cable companies say this is what they want too, but then they lobby the FCC relentlessly to undermine Cable Card and its alternatives, keeping subscribers locked into leasing their boxes.

slowbiscuit

01-12-10, 07:42 AM

I agree. There are some people here that believe that the cableCos do not make any money on STBs (even HD DVRs at $16/mo.), and that may be true. But they do make a lot of money on PPV/VOD, package upgrades initiated by users when they see shows they want on channels that cannot be deleted from the guide, ads in guides, etc.

The bottom line is while they don't want 3rd-party devices for support reasons, more importantly they don't want to lose control over the user experience even if they don't make money on their own boxes.

jmpage2

01-12-10, 10:02 AM

ubercool

02-25-10, 03:03 PM

Hey guys, they're finally arriving on March 27:

TiVo Premiere, XL DVRs show up in Best Buy systems for $299, $499; due March 27 (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/25/tivo-premiere-xl-dvrs-show-up-in-best-buy-systems-for-299-49/)

:)

BenJF3

02-25-10, 03:26 PM

That's all well and good, but if they don't offer anything new and different like built in SDV compatibility, VOD, PPV and enhancements then it doesn't help me out. I hope this isn't what the big announcement is come March 2nd!

For me to jump to Tivo, I need the following options:

1) SDV compatibility because we have over 100 HD channels here and most all are SDV.

2) VOD/PPV compatibility because you have to order from a VOD menu for certain items. (Separate from Internet delivery of things like Netflix, Hulu etc. which should be included anyway)

3) More than two available tuners and I'd take OTA as the extras. If they allow for recording at least three and watching one live (or recording 4 streams and watching recorded), that would be fantastic.

4) HD, customizable guide interface

5) eSata for storage expansion

These are NOT pie in the sky requirements and should be able to be accomplished. I don't hold Tivo completely at fault here either because the cableco's do their best to block third party devices and it's bunk. If I have a Tivo with VOD/PPV capability, the cableco STILL makes money off me because I will order events! Right now, I deal with the crappy software and box from the cable company because it suffices. However, I would gladly pay a little more for a Tivo experience with the above.

Hakemon

02-25-10, 04:20 PM

Yea, no built in SDV, no purchase from me. By cable companies tuning adapters are known to be crap and constantly failing daily. Not dealing with that.

jacksonian

02-25-10, 04:45 PM

jacksonian

02-25-10, 04:47 PM

Yea, no built in SDV, no purchase from me. By cable companies tuning adapters are known to be crap and constantly failing daily. Not dealing with that.
I've had 2 (now 3) tuning adapters for about 10 months now and I've had to call TWC a total of 6 times. That's 6 more than I'd like, but it sure isn't "constantly failing daily".

BenJF3

02-26-10, 04:18 AM

I understand your frustration, and I'd love to have all those features too. But your first 3 wishes are kind of pie in the sky because the first 2 are beyond TiVo's control right now and they're making as much noise as they can to get that fixed, and for #3, well, I have yet to find a DVR that has more than 2 tuners.

Dish Network DVRs currently have more than two tuners. Two OTA and Two Sat for recording. DirecTV's do as well with an add on AM-21, but you are still limited to only two recordings. Echostar has the best hardware currently on the market and DirecTV has really fallen off their game. Slow DVRs, loss of HD channels and nothing really compelling on the horizon.

I agree that cable companys are holding up the VOD/PPV and stated such, but my point is it can easily be done so I don't view it as pie in the sky. If my piece of crap SA8300 can function reliably with ancient software and give these things, then Tivo should certainly be able to make it happen by working with cable companies. Hell, all the Tivo really needs to be is addressable by the cable op somehow.

bfdtv

02-26-10, 06:06 AM

I agree that cable companys are holding up the VOD/PPV and stated such, but my point is it can easily be done so I don't view it as pie in the sky.Different areas use different, completely incompatible SDV implementations.

tru2way is supposed to make it possible for a single piece of hardware to support all implementations through the addition of an embedded cable modem and Java virtual machine to download and run the cable company's own software. That cable company software would include the localized, system-specific SDV support.

If a cable company doesn't provide tru2way software...then there is no possibly way for TiVo to directly support SDV on all systems, much less do it "easily." TWC does offer said software in nearly every market, although I'm not sure how well it plays on non-Samsung DVRs.

PedjaR

02-26-10, 12:23 PM

... well, I have yet to find a DVR that has more than 2 tuners.

Moxi has a 3 tuner version. Cisco tuning adapters impose 2 tuners limitation, though.

b_scott

03-01-10, 02:07 PM

tomorrow!

garberfc

03-02-10, 07:26 AM

Let's hope it delivers on the features we're looking for...

BenJF3

03-02-10, 07:28 AM

Here's hoping for awesome news, but preparing myself for a let down...

Kimeran

03-02-10, 10:01 AM

Here's hoping for awesome news, but preparing myself for a let down...

agreed! I have been avoiding this topic so I dont get let down. I realy hope its a new HD Directivo though....along with everything else you guys have stated.

b_scott

03-02-10, 10:29 AM

nothing that has been rumored is "revolutionary" so who knows

humdinger70

03-02-10, 11:35 AM

Amazing. I started this thread back in December 2007 and it took THIS long (2+ years) for anything to come of it.

We hope....

rplotkin

03-02-10, 03:43 PM

2.75 more hours. who makes a 6pm announcement!?

hdtvfan2005

03-02-10, 03:50 PM

The info is being embargoed until 7PM EST.

b_scott

03-02-10, 04:41 PM

any way to get rid of the stupid redundant useless "HD Recordings" folder?

also, I want a way to save your season passes to their site online same as you can see your To Do Lists, etc. In case your box dies or you upgrade, then you don't have to re-do them all (and ones that aren't in the guide yet won't even be searchable anyway)

b_scott

03-02-10, 04:45 PM

http://apimages.ap.org/Search.aspx?st=det&sort=date&id=TiVo&showact=events&prds=10134&intv=3d&sh=10&kwstyle=and&adte=1267558329&pagez=20&cfasstyle=AND&

Tivo Premiere pics (w/HD menus)

jonnyb

03-02-10, 05:36 PM

Here is a link to a clearer picture of the Tivo Premiere GUI (without the associated press watermarks). It looks like an 802.11n adapter is coming as well (from b_scott's link).

http://newshopper.sulekha.com/tivo-redo_photo_1196004.htm

b_scott

03-02-10, 05:49 PM

thanks Jonny

i think it's funny that they say it combines all that in one box when TivoHD already does that.

humdinger70

03-02-10, 06:50 PM

I just saw the following on Cnet. How much you can trust it is debatable.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462438-1.html

Dawn Gordon

03-02-10, 07:13 PM

Here's the Engadget info:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/dnptivo-premiere-and-premiere-xl-usher-in-a-brand-new-interface/

Glad they added the space meter and the picture-in-picture. Haven't seen any images of the programming grid. I'm hoping they added the ability to see what's going to be recorded in the grid view.

progprog

03-02-10, 07:16 PM

Here's the Engadget info:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/dnptivo-premiere-and-premiere-xl-usher-in-a-brand-new-interface/
Has anybody seen a photo of the back panel yet?

ubercool

03-02-10, 07:32 PM

Wow HD interface based on flash! Cool! :cool:

BenJF3

03-02-10, 07:58 PM

TiVo FAIL! Nothing I see so far that is groundbreaking unless you are an RCN sub. I'm mobile right now, so I have to get to my PC & really pick over the announcement.

b_scott

03-02-10, 08:01 PM

disappointing. no new UI on the Series 3 either.

shyguy3763

03-02-10, 08:04 PM

Still only 2 tuners,BIG LET DOWN :mad:

b_scott

03-02-10, 08:05 PM

no streaming to other systems either, still download only. no multiple system recording service, spread across your Tivos.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 08:36 PM

BenJF3

03-02-10, 08:45 PM

Wow, tough crowd. Seems like they did a pretty good job of adding features that we had been asking for.

As for more tuners, the Cisco tuning adapters only support 2 tuners, right? So if you wanted more than 2 tuners you'd have to get 4 multistream cards and 2 tuning adapters, right? And would that even work? I guess I just don't run into that many occasions where I need more than 2 tuners at a time.

How is it being a tough crown when all this amounts to is an update of what they currently offer? Even if the Cisco tuning adapters are limited to 2 tuners, they still could have made the unit internally support two 4 separate streams. The point is the should be working to eliminate tuning adapters altogether and have SDV onboard. At least have OTA and allow for 2 plus two OTA.

Tivo still doesn't widely support VOD/PPV (unless apparently you have RCN).

So, Tivo is officially off my maybe list and Moxi isn't doing anything new either. If you want full functionality you will remain stuck with whatever the cable company offers.

b_scott

03-02-10, 08:48 PM

Wow, tough crowd. Seems like they did a pretty good job of adding features that we had been asking for.

As for more tuners, the Cisco tuning adapters only support 2 tuners, right? So if you wanted more than 2 tuners you'd have to get 4 multistream cards and 2 tuning adapters, right? And would that even work? I guess I just don't run into that many occasions where I need more than 2 tuners at a time.

there was so much they could've done, instead all they did was give an HD interface (which their HD models should've already had) and made you purchase a new box to get it. Basically a big middle finger to us HD owners who put a lot of money into their products.

what features did they add "that we've been asking for"?

FYI AT&T U-Verse boxes do four tuners at a time on one box, and there are HTPC's doing it soon.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 08:50 PM

How is it being a tough crown when all this amounts to is an update of what they currently offer? Even if the Cisco tuning adapters are limited to 2 tuners, they still could have made the unit internally support two 4 separate streams. The point is the should be working to eliminate tuning adapters altogether and have SDV onboard. At least have OTA and allow for 2 plus two OTA.

Tivo still doesn't widely support VOD/PPV (unless apparently you have RCN).

So, Tivo is officially off my maybe list and Moxi isn't doing anything new either. If you want full functionality you will remain stuck with whatever the cable company offers.
Being a tough crowd is asking for things that TiVo can't control, no one can get past SDV right now. TiVo's making all the noise they can about it.

BenJF3

03-02-10, 08:56 PM

Being a tough crowd is asking for things that TiVo can't control, no one can get past SDV right now. TiVo's making all the noise they can about it.

Granted, but it should be a priority. Until that is addressed, Tivo is losing out to a huge potential market. Tivo could have worked with Cisco to integrate tuning adapters and coupled them with OTA integration. Even that would have been enough to keep many of us stuck with crappy cable guides satisfied. How about adding Hulu and as many net options as possible, then I can forego the VOD. I concur with the bulk of the posts here - Tivo could have done so much more than they did. All this announcement amounts to is an updated interface with a few bells and whistles.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 08:58 PM

there was so much they could've done, instead all they did was give an HD interface (which their HD models should've already had) and made you purchase a new box to get it. Basically a big middle finger to us HD owners who put a lot of money into their products.
I hate that you're taking it personally. I own 3 TiVo Series 3's/HD's and I don't feel like TiVo is giving me the finger.

what features did they add "that we've been asking for"?People have been complaining forever about the old interface, lack of storage meter, lack of qwerty keyboard entry, lack of PIP while browsing, etc...

I'm not talking about pipe dreams of magically somehow overcoming the SDV problem. Did people seriously think that somehow TiVo could circumvent the rules of the game that the cable companies have setup? Really?

FYI AT&T U-Verse boxes do four tuners at a time on one box, and there are HTPC's doing it soon.
U-Verse doesn't have to contend with SDV issues does it? So get AT&T U-verse then. I guess you like the functionality of their box better than TiVo? I can't get and don't want U-Verse.

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:03 PM

Being a tough crowd is asking for things that TiVo can't control, no one can get past SDV right now. TiVo's making all the noise they can about it.

I don't care about SDV, I don't really need it. VOD would be nice but it's not something that's a dealbreaker since they can't fix it right now. They made the interface Premiere ONLY so you have to upgrade your hardware to get it, when it's very likely it could run on the S3's if they tweaked it. The people who just bough XL's are now screwed out of the new interface.

They could've made MRV streaming, they could put larger HD's in them (really? 1TB is the best you can do? I can get a TB 3.5" drive for $80 tops). They could've put Hulu access in it, they could've made it link to all other Tivos on your network to schedule shows and only have one Season Pass Manager so it figured out the best place to record what, instead of micro-managing. Among all sorts of other things that they are completely in control of and have nothing to do with SDV. They could've included Wireless N inside FINALLY. They could've included the QWERTY remote instead of charging extra. It's crap.

Maybe people who are morons wanted a storage meter, but anyone who knows anything about tech knows that the drive is always full. It doesn't matter how much is "left" since there's never really any left.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:03 PM

Granted, but it should be a priority. Until that is addressed, Tivo is losing out to a huge potential market. Tivo could have worked with Cisco to integrate tuning adapters and coupled them with OTA integration. Even that would have been enough to keep many of us stuck with crappy cable guides satisfied. How about adding Hulu and as many net options as possible, then I can forego the VOD. I concur with the bulk of the posts here - Tivo could have done so much more than they did. All this announcement amounts to is an updated interface with a few bells and whistles.
It IS a priority, what makes you think it's not? TiVo has made proposals to the FCC. What else can they do?

And integrating tuning adapters? Wouldn't that require the cooperation of the cable companies? I have to get my cable cards and my tuning adapters from TWC. How could TiVo incorporate them?

I guess it just seems like folks were hoping that somehow TiVo could break all the rules and leap over all the cable companies in a single bound.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:05 PM

It's crap.
Then why are you here? Don't buy it. Sell your TiVoHD and buy U-verse.

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:07 PM

Then why are you here? Don't buy it. Sell your TiVoHD and buy U-verse.

that's the answer. don't demand more of your services, just jump ship. good call.

BenJF3

03-02-10, 09:11 PM

It IS a priority, what makes you think it's not? TiVo has made proposals to the FCC. What else can they do?

And integrating tuning adapters? Wouldn't that require the cooperation of the cable companies? I have to get my cable cards and my tuning adapters from TWC. How could TiVo incorporate them?

I guess it just seems like folks were hoping that somehow TiVo could break all the rules and leap over all the cable companies in a single bound.

Tivo could have gone around cable ops and worked with Cisco to at least integrate tuning adapters. I was hoping for other things that b_scott wanted as well like true MRV and Hulu access. Honestly, the best way Tivo could proceed is to try and work with Cable Companies to offer Tivo through them. If Cisco can make a box that works nationwide in various cable markets, Tivo should be able to do the same, that's my main point. I'll give you that the cable ops are boneheads for not being willing to work with Tivo.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:12 PM

I think you're confusing demanding with whining. Seriously, why WOULDN'T TiVo want to make all of us happy and sell a billion of these boxes? Really. If it was that easy, don't you think they'd do it? You really believe that TiVo is trying to milk another purchase out of you and risk losing a subscriber?

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:14 PM

Tivo could have gone around cable ops and worked with Cisco to at least integrate tuning adapters. I was hoping for other things that b_scott wanted as well like true MRV and Hulu access. Honestly, the best way Tivo could proceed is to try and work with Cable Companies to offer Tivo through them. If Cisco can make a box that works nationwide in various cable markets, Tivo should be able to do the same, that's my main point. I'll give you that the cable ops are boneheads for not being willing to work with Tivo.
You just stated the problem: "work with cable companies." The cable companies don't want to work with TiVo. I would love for TWC to offer me a TWC-TiVo just like a DirecTiVo, but it ain't happening.

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:14 PM

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:17 PM

yes. i believe Tivo sees most users as lemmings. All the things I listed have nothing to do with Cable company compliance.
Come on, be serious. Does that make good business sense? TiVo has been fighting for its place in this market forever. I just can't believe that TiVo execs are sitting around risking their jobs and the future of the whole company with their fingers tapping like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons. That's just a really facile way of viewing the world.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:19 PM

Maybe people who are morons wanted a storage meter, but anyone who knows anything about tech knows that the drive is always full. It doesn't matter how much is "left" since there's never really any left.
Enlighten me on this one, oh wise one. The only way to know how close you were to having one of your recordings deleted up to now was to look at the deleted items folder and see how much approximate room was left.

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:19 PM

Come on, be serious. Does that make good business sense? TiVo has been fighting for its place in this market forever. I just can't believe that TiVo execs are sitting around risking their jobs and the future of the whole company with their fingers tapping like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons. That's just a really facile way of viewing the world.

Explain to me why they wouldn't add basically anything we've been talking about for years, while touting some revolution of TV with a special secret press conference? They decided to do a slight update with a necessary upgrade included, so they could sell more boxes with the least amount of effort.

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:21 PM

Enlighten me on this one, oh wise one. The only way to know how close you were to having one of your recordings deleted up to now was to look at the deleted items folder and see how much approximate room was left.

What was the other option? The whole system is set up to delete least priority stuff first, and it'll still be that way - meter or not. You can already set priority in deletion. This won't change anything.

scsiraid

03-02-10, 09:24 PM

Tivo could have gone around cable ops and worked with Cisco to at least integrate tuning adapters. I was hoping for other things that b_scott wanted as well like true MRV and Hulu access. Honestly, the best way Tivo could proceed is to try and work with Cable Companies to offer Tivo through them. If Cisco can make a box that works nationwide in various cable markets, Tivo should be able to do the same, that's my main point. I'll give you that the cable ops are boneheads for not being willing to work with Tivo.

Cisco's box doesnt work nationwide... It only works on Cisco systems... Different Cisco systems use different firmware. Motorola systems use a Motorola TA. Different beasts. Integrating the TA is a nonstarter. That is what <tru2way> was about.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:24 PM

What was the other option? The whole system is set up to delete least priority stuff first, and it'll still be that way - meter or not. You can already set priority in deletion. This won't change anything.
Gotcha. That's why people have been asking for it, why every other DVR has it, and why they just added it. Guess TiVo was just feeding the morons.

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:25 PM

Explain to me why they wouldn't add basically anything we've been talking about for years, while touting some revolution of TV with a special secret press conference? They decided to do a slight update with a necessary upgrade included, so they could sell more boxes with the least amount of effort.
It's an evil conspiracy. You probably shouldn't buy their stuff. In fact, maybe you should start your own company since you're clearly smarter than they are and you would NOT at all be interested in making any money, but rather would give your DVR and features away to the people like Robin Hood.

keenan

03-02-10, 09:27 PM

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:28 PM

It's an evil conspiracy. You probably shouldn't buy their stuff. In fact, maybe you should start your own company since you're clearly smarter than they are and you would NOT at all be interested in making any money, but rather would give your DVR and features away to the people like Robin Hood.

you can be snarky all you want, but most people here agree with me. we're just the only ones in the thread right now.

uw69

03-02-10, 09:29 PM

What a huge let down this announcement was. I guess I should take a look at Moxie, I hear they have 3 tuners? :)

BenJF3

03-02-10, 09:29 PM

Cisco's box doesnt work nationwide... It only works on Cisco systems... Different Cisco systems use different firmware. Motorola systems use a Motorola TA. Different beasts. Integrating the TA is a nonstarter. That is what <tru2way> was about.

Copy that, I mean that Cisco/SA makes an 8300HD set top that can go to any market that supports that hardware which is most and be made to work with said system by just having its firmware flashed and downloaded with that divisions software. I agree that Tru2Way needs to be implemented to allow for a truly independent market place where 3rd party devices can get tractions and become mainstream.

scsiraid

03-02-10, 09:32 PM

Doesn't Motorola's adapter work with 3 tuners whereas the Cisco model will only work with 2?

I believe the Motorola TA will support more than 3 but not sure what the number is... BUT... only on Motorola systems. :)

jacksonian

03-02-10, 09:33 PM

you can be snarky all you want, but most people here agree with me. we're just the only ones in the thread right now.
I don't doubt that many people will agree with you. Every time a new product or a refresh/update is released, there's never a shortage of Monday morning quarterbacks chiming in about how stupid or evil the company is and how much smarter they are because they would have done it better. Doesn't matter if it's Apple and the iPhone launch (which goes on to change the entire industry) or TiVo. There's always a chorus of "FAIL" "No 4 tuners, no sale" from a bunch of people who think they know more than everyone else.

Start your own company, do it better. Clearly you have both the technical expertise as well as the business mind for it. So why are you on a forum complaining about someone else's company? Put your money where your mouth is.

keenan

03-02-10, 09:34 PM

I believe the Motorola TA will support more than 3 but not sure what the number is... BUT... only on Motorola systems. :)

Of course, of which my market is one. :)

b_scott

03-02-10, 09:57 PM

Kimeran

03-02-10, 09:58 PM

so I have now seen one article say that it is compatible with satelite and another that says it is not. Anyone know about this?

jacksonian

03-02-10, 10:05 PM

you are ridiculous. I don't know why I even bother. Anyone else want to take this?
Seriously? There are a million internet jockeys who obviously know more than Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and every other successful business owner out there. But you don't do anything about it. And you accuse them of being stupid or evil, or both.

If you don't like their product, then either buy something else or start your own company and do it better. But whining on an internet forum about how evil/stupid they are and how "easy it is" to do all these things just doesn't look good on you.

akbungle

03-02-10, 10:37 PM

so I have now seen one article say that it is compatible with satelite and another that says it is not. Anyone know about this?

I would say no here is the specs from the press release:
TiVo Series4™ architecture
Supports digital cable, high-definition digital cable, antenna (ATSC) and Verizon FiOS
Outputs: HDMI, Component video, Composite video, Optical audio, Analog audio
Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Inputs: CableCARD™ support, Cable coax, Antenna coax, Ethernet
Ethernet connection, USB 2.0 ports (2), E-SATA support for external storage
TiVo Wireless N and G Network Adapter support
ENERGY STAR® certified

Kimeran

03-02-10, 10:41 PM

I would say no here is the specs from the press release:
TiVo Series4™ architecture
Supports digital cable, high-definition digital cable, antenna (ATSC) and Verizon FiOS
Outputs: HDMI, Component video, Composite video, Optical audio, Analog audio
Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Inputs: CableCARD™ support, Cable coax, Antenna coax, Ethernet
Ethernet connection, USB 2.0 ports (2), E-SATA support for external storage
TiVo Wireless N and G Network Adapter support
ENERGY STAR® certified

Thank You, I didnt see any official specs in the articles I read. I thouht they would have released that today since it has already been confirmed by Direct TV and Tivo...I guess as long as its out by the time I move into my new house.....which isnt till july or so.

bfdtv

03-02-10, 11:07 PM

Engadget posted datasheets in PDF format:

TiVo Premiere (PDF) (http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/tivopremiere.pdf)
TiVo Premiere XL (PDF) (http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/tivopremierexl.pdf)

brentsg

03-02-10, 11:26 PM

So, Tivo is officially off my maybe list and Moxi isn't doing anything new either. If you want full functionality you will remain stuck with whatever the cable company offers.

This is absolutely, positively the biggest problem. It's also 100% the cable companies' strategy. They will drag their feet at every turn and impede any initiative that would open up the market.

I was working in engineering at the corporate HQ of one the largest cable companies in the USA and I STILL couldn't get cablecards provisioned for my TiVo S3. I had the knowledge to do it myself but wasn't allowed to. They want you using their box with their guide, so you are staring at their stupid integrated advertising.

Of course this is an oversimplification, but that is certainly a primary reason.

gtgray

03-03-10, 04:06 AM

I don't doubt that many people will agree with you. Every time a new product or a refresh/update is released, there's never a shortage of Monday morning quarterbacks chiming in about how stupid or evil the company is and how much smarter they are because they would have done it better. Doesn't matter if it's Apple and the iPhone launch (which goes on to change the entire industry) or TiVo. There's always a chorus of "FAIL" "No 4 tuners, no sale" from a bunch of people who think they know more than everyone else.

Start your own company, do it better. Clearly you have both the technical expertise as well as the business mind for it. So why are you on a forum complaining about someone else's company? Put your money where your mouth is.

I think that Tivo Owners have every right to comment on the new product. With what we have to go on so far makes this seem like a not very compelling upgrade. Maybe it is a cost reduced platform that is greener, which is all okay but not necessarily compelling enough to get exisiting owners to upgrade. Ultra low power Windows 7 boxes are beginning to look more and more attractive used with cablecard based network tuners. Why not have HD DVR access all over the house without limits and a zero cost program guide. Many different ways to go about things Tivo or the Cable Companies box are not the only solutions in the market place. Win 7 Media Center kits and a couple of HD Homeruns with or without cable cards offer real advantages. Back up to Windows Home Server unlimited storage, real internet not just some apps.

BenJF3

03-03-10, 09:03 AM

This is absolutely, positively the biggest problem. It's also 100% the cable companies' strategy. They will drag their feet at every turn and impede any initiative that would open up the market.

I was working in engineering at the corporate HQ of one the largest cable companies in the USA and I STILL couldn't get cablecards provisioned for my TiVo S3. I had the knowledge to do it myself but wasn't allowed to. They want you using their box with their guide, so you are staring at their stupid integrated advertising.

Of course this is an oversimplification, but that is certainly a primary reason.

Oh I totally KNOW that's the case and it's really stupid of them to alienate tech savvy users. 1st) There is no on guide advertising in our current SARA guide. 2nd) By allowing VOD/PPV compatibility, the cable op still derives revenue from the sub. 3rd) The cable op DOESN'T have to officially support the device via it's customer service thus saving money.

Personally, I'd gladly pay extra for a Time Warner DVR made by Tivo if that's what they want. The cable company needs a high end product for us and it just ain't happening. I hate my cable DVR, but it works for the VERY basic function of recording what I want. I'd love to get a Moxi that supports Hulu and such, but still no OTA input (however, they do offer 3 tuner recording if your cable op supports it) and have MRV with Live TV via Moxi Mate.

On the other hand, CableCard PCI-e adapters will be out soon and should work with Windows 7 Media Center so I'm kicking the idea around of saying to hell with all the mainstream options and build an HTPC that does EXACTLY what I want (or damn close to it).

jacksonian

03-03-10, 09:05 AM

I think that Tivo Owners have every right to comment on the new product. With what we have to go on so far makes this seem like a not very compelling upgrade. Maybe it is a cost reduced platform that is greener, which is all okay but not necessarily compelling enough to get exisiting owners to upgrade. Ultra low power Windows 7 boxes are beginning to look more and more attractive used with cablecard based network tuners. Why not have HD DVR access all over the house without limits and a zero cost program guide. Many different ways to go about things Tivo or the Cable Companies box are not the only solutions in the market place. Win 7 Media Center kits and a couple of HD Homeruns with or without cable cards offer real advantages. Back up to Windows Home Server unlimited storage, real internet not just some apps.
I don't have any problem with TiVo owners "commenting", heck, I commented on it. It's the whining and bashing stuff like "It's crap" or "FAIL!" that I think is just pointless.

If you like a Windows 7 box, then that sounds like a good plan for you. I had enough frustration with Windows PC's, I don't think I want to bring that frustration to my TV watching experience. But that's just my opinion. YMMV.

bull3964

03-03-10, 09:51 AM

As someone who was anxiously awaiting for TiVo to release a product that would be the definitive DVR and not a warmed over Boxee Box with last generation DVR functionality, I'm incredibly disappointed. This would have been a fine product refresh in 2008, but now it's just too little too late. Hopefully the platform will evolve into something, but I'm not going to consider buying in until then.

TiVo seems to have forgotten their core product, the DVR. I can plug internet content into my TV a half dozen ways right now with more and more coming for better and cheaper. Having Youtube, Amazon, or Netflix integration in your box doesn't make you stand out from the pack anymore. They are nice things to have in addition to a strong core product, but simply upping to the storage to 320gb (seriously, that's it?) and finally implementing a UI that people have rightfully been expecting for years just doesn't scream innovation.

Oh well, I'll keep my eye out for some deals. Drop the box to $199 and half lifetime service and I'll probably jump. But if I'm going to spend nearly $700 on a DVR solution, I'm probably going to explore a 3 tuner Moxi + Moxi Mate or a Windows Media 7 + cablecard tuner solution first.

bidger

03-03-10, 10:13 AM

Wow, tough crowd. Seems like they did a pretty good job of adding features that we had been asking for.

As much as you may not like to admit it, the fault for this lies squarely with TiVo. The theme of the announcement was "Inventing the DVR was just a warm-up...". That statement not only stirs the imaginations of consumers, it sets lofty expectations. People fantasized and found the actual announcement lacking because a) features they'd visualized didn't materialize, and b) in order to get most of the new features, they'd have to shell out several hundred dollars. Not an attractive proposal in this economic climate.

If you like a Windows 7 box, then that sounds like a good plan for you. I had enough frustration with Windows PC's, I don't think I want to bring that frustration to my TV watching experience. But that's just my opinion. YMMV.

I've been running MCE for nearly 4 years now, so yeah, My Mileage Has Varied. Ability to do more than just record Live TV, a much more modern interface than on current TiVos with the Vista and W7 editions, lots of third party apps, and no subscription charge. I'm also running Boxee, Miro, and ShoutcastTV on Winamp. My only disappointment is that DirecTV backed out of doing a tuner card for MCE. And contrary to your opinion, I haven't found it high maintenance. There's a whole community of enthusiasts out there, just like with TiVo, so answers aren't hard to find.

I can understand how some might prefer a standalone DVR, I just see no good reason to limit my choices when it comes to DVRs. And part of what was contained in TiVos announcement yesterday was the desire to be an "all-in-one" box. Well, I've had that for years now.

jacksonian

03-03-10, 10:22 AM

As much as you may not like to admit it, the fault for this lies squarely with TiVo. The theme of the announcement was "Inventing the DVR was just a warm-up...". That statement not only stirs the imaginations of consumers, it sets lofty expectations. People fantasized and found the actual announcement lacking because a) features they'd visualized didn't materialize, and b) in order to get most of the new features, they'd have to shell out several hundred dollars. Not an attractive proposal in this economic climate.
It's not TiVo's fault that people had unrealistic expectations and can't handle their disappointment in an adult manner. If it's your company and you're releasing a new product, you're going to hype it up. That's business. If you can't understand that, then well, that's why none of these guys are in their own business and making their own fabulous DVRs. I read the exact same press release, and while I would have loved even more, I got what I thought was realistic. And if people are angry that they have to spend more money to get new features instead of having them given to them for free, will that's a problem for them. It's gonna be a hard life.

I've been running MCE for nearly 4 years now, so yeah, My Mileage Has Varied. Ability to do more than just record Live TV, a much more modern interface than on current TiVos with the Vista and W7 editions, lots of third party apps, and no subscription charge. I'm also running Boxee, Miro, and ShoutcastTV on Winamp. My only disappointment is that DirecTV backed out of doing a tuner card for MCE. And contrary to your opinion, I haven't found it high maintenance. There's a whole community of enthusiasts out there, just like with TiVo, so answers aren't hard to find.

I can understand how some might prefer a standalone DVR, I just see no good reason to limit my choices when it comes to DVRs. And part of what was contained in TiVos announcement yesterday was the desire to be an "all-in-one" box. Well, I've had that for years now.
So rock the W7 box. Why be disappointed with TiVo? Why even care about TiVo? If I was enjoying such a magical box like you are, I sure wouldn't be reading, much less posting in a TiVo thread.

b_scott

03-03-10, 11:01 AM

It's not TiVo's fault that people had unrealistic expectations and can't handle their disappointment in an adult manner. If it's your company and you're releasing a new product, you're going to hype it up. That's business. If you can't understand that, then well, that's why none of these guys are in their own business and making their own fabulous DVRs. I read the exact same press release, and while I would have loved even more, I got what I thought was realistic. And if people are angry that they have to spend more money to get new features instead of having them given to them for free, will that's a problem for them. It's gonna be a hard life.

Yes, yes it is. Their tagline "Inventing the DVR was just a warm up.." sets lofty goals and aspirations. And they did not deliver. Contrary to your opinion, it's the truth. You calling all the detractors little children only makes you look like an a**hole.

bidger

03-03-10, 11:04 AM

jacksonian's TiVo apologist status confirmed.

brentsg

03-03-10, 11:06 AM

Oh I totally KNOW that's the case and it's really stupid of them to alienate tech savvy users. 1st) There is no on guide advertising in our current SARA guide. 2nd) By allowing VOD/PPV compatibility, the cable op still derives revenue from the sub. 3rd) The cable op DOESN'T have to officially support the device via it's customer service thus saving money.

That's great that you don't have an ugly ad-ridden guide. When I was working for said cable company I got almost all the services for free. But the cable TV service sucked and the ads bugged me so I paid for D*. Then they oversold their broadband and had huge bottlenecks on their internet drains at primetime so I paid for DSL. Hey at least the phone worked (most of the time).

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:15 AM

Yes, yes it is. Their tagline "Inventing the DVR was just a warm up.." sets lofty goals and aspirations. And they did not deliver. Contrary to your opinion, it's the truth. You calling all the detractors little children only makes you look like an a**hole.
It's called marketing hype. Everyone does it, it's business. If you knew half as much about this technology as you claimed to, then you'd have had realistic expectations like I did. Take a business marketing class. And again, it's not about "commenting" or even pointing out reasonable shortcomings, it's about not calling things "crap" because they they don't have the features that you wanted.

Last time, start your own company and do it better. Clearly you know how.

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:16 AM

jacksonian's TiVo apologist status confirmed.
Lame. Read my posts. I'm not apologizing for TiVo. Of course I wanted more, but I'm not going to post angry rants because I had ridiculously outlandish expectations because on marketing hype.

And again, why are you here if you're so happy with your Windows box? Trolling?

b_scott

03-03-10, 11:17 AM

It's called marketing hype. Everyone does it, it's business. If you knew half as much about this technology as you claimed to, then you'd have had realistic expectations like I did. Take a business marketing class. And again, it's not about "commenting" or even pointing out reasonable shortcomings, it's about not calling things "crap" because they they don't have the features that you wanted.

Last time, start your own company and do it better. Clearly you know how.

Marketing hype is fine, misleading almost to the point of lying is another thing. Especially with a huge to-do months in advance and secretive bans on information only to release what's basically the same product with a little extra shine to it.

I don't reply to your idiotic statements about "making my own" because they're ridiculous. As a consumer I have the right to complain and request things be different since I'M the one buying the products that they are creating to be consumed. I don't need to "start my own company" in order to be allowed to be upset about stupid moves.

BenJF3

03-03-10, 11:18 AM

That's great that you don't have an ugly ad-ridden guide.

No ads, but it sure is ugly! The SARA guide looks like something a sixth grader did on a Commodore 64 back in 1986...

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:19 AM

Marketing hype is fine, misleading almost to the point of lying is another thing. Especially with a huge to-do months in advance and secretive bans on information only to release what's basically the same product with a little extra shine to it.

I don't reply to your idiotic statements about "making my own" because they're ridiculous. As a consumer I have the right to complain and request things be different since I'M the one buying the products that they are creating to be consumed. I don't need to "start my own company" in order to be allowed to be upset about stupid moves.
Misleading almost to the point of lying? Seriously? Dude, it's marketing. Look it up. They didn't promise you more tuners, they didn't promise you all the things you wanted. They hyped a press conference for a new release. Every company does it.

You also have the right to vote with your wallet and buy something else. The market will dictate whether you are correct or not.

b_scott

03-03-10, 11:20 AM

You also have the right to vote with your wallet and buy something else. The market will dictate whether you are correct or not.

obviously. and while voting with my wallet, i'm also allowed to vote with my voice, considering we still have freedom of speech in the US as far as I know.

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:31 AM

obviously. and while voting with my wallet, i'm also allowed to vote with my voice, considering we still have freedom of speech in the US as far as I know.
You sure do. And you also have the right to be called out by other people for making incredibly silly accusations that TiVo thinks its customers are lemmings and that they did all this as some cruel conspiracy.

humdinger70

03-03-10, 11:35 AM

To moderator: Please change title of this thread from "UnOfficial" to "Official", since the 'Series 4' moniker is now, well, official.

b_scott

03-03-10, 11:35 AM

You sure do. And you also have the right to be called out by other people for making incredibly silly accusations that TiVo thinks its customers are lemmings and that they did all this as some cruel conspiracy.

I never said they did all this as some cruel conspiracy. You said that. Don't put words into my mouth.

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:35 AM

No ads, but it sure is ugly! The SARA guide looks like something a sixth grader did on a Commodore 64 back in 1986...
That's a dead on description.

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:40 AM

I never said they did all this as some cruel conspiracy. You said that. Don't put words into my mouth.
Ah, my apology. I said, "you really think TiVo's trying to milk another purchase out of you and risk losing a subscriber" and you said, "yes, I believe TiVo sees most users as lemmings."

I misinterpreted that then. It sounded to me like you were saying that TiVo really thought we were lemmings and that they had misled us with all this hyped up secret press conference into buying another box. I misinterpreted that into thinking it was some cruel conspiracy.

Can you clarify for me exactly what it was you meant then?

jacksonian

03-03-10, 11:41 AM

To moderator: Please change title of this thread from "UnOfficial" to "Official", since the 'Series 4' moniker is now, well, official.
But it's not "Series 4" is it? I thought it was the TiVo Premiere and Premiere XL?

PedjaR

03-03-10, 12:16 PM

Misleading almost to the point of lying? Seriously? Dude, it's marketing. Look it up. They didn't promise you more tuners, they didn't promise you all the things you wanted. They hyped a press conference for a new release. Every company does it.

You also have the right to vote with your wallet and buy something else. The market will dictate whether you are correct or not.

"Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" clearly implies that the thing they are about to unveil is (and considerably so) bigger/better/more important than the invention of DVR. Since this incremental update (mostly HD UI, which was already available for months on competing products) is not anywhere close to being as important as the invention of DVR, it was lying, plain and simple.
Marketing hype this plainly false is lying. There are a lot of ways to say "we have something new and cool to unveil" that are short of saying "this is much better than the invention of DVR". It sets unrealistic expectations, and then, of course, backlash comes, and deservingly so.

bull3964

03-03-10, 12:34 PM

After mulling it over, I think we've all interpreted the marketing tagline wrong. "Inventing the DVR was just a warmup" isn't so much a prelude to a evolution of the DVR as it is a farewell to what got them started in this business.

What was unveiled yesterday was not the Tivo Premiere, it was the software running on the Premiere. They set out to design a modular content aggregation software package with a UI that's easily ported to nearly any new STB. The hardware is incidental at this point, it's just a stepping stone to the next evolution of the company, being a software vendor for MSOs STBs.

I would NOT be surprised if this was the last bit of TiVo branded hardware ever released. It's simply a devkit gussied up for consumer release to keep the name viable in the market for the next few years.

gtgray

03-03-10, 12:57 PM

Judging by the price point and feature list I have to say who is the target audience for the new product. They could have stuck an ABT or HQV or other top notch processing chip in the box. Heck for the price point of the XL they could have thrown in a blu-ray player. I just don't see how these new set top boxes drive subscription sales.

The service is already incredibly expensive going in. I don't see where they are building an architecture that gracefully expands. One should be able to buy multiple STBs pay one subscription price.

Tivo really missed the boat, they could have grabbed at being a central video hub type positioning for a whole house. The price points would allow one to do that. Now what they have is yet another me too media streamer with a hugely expensive subscription service.

blackngold75

03-03-10, 01:23 PM

While not ground-breaking, I see enough in the Premiere that I am ordering it. I was considering a second Tivo or building an htpc - with a discount on lifetime subscription it's about $600. Not cheap, but I have been really happy with my TivoHD. I watch broadcast TV plus Netflix and other content on-line like the HD podcasts. Something like a Moxi doesn't work for me since I don't have cable.

I wasn't expecting anything earth-shattering in yesterday's announcement, so I have not been let down. Here are the benefits I see in Tivo in general and in the Premiere:

- Excellent OTA reception/picture
- Recording has been flawless
- Netflix HD streaming
- Access to my media library from the Tivo
- Ability to transfer programs between Tivo/PC/iPod ( and between Tivo's, I expect, when I get the second one)
- I only have dealt with Tivo customer service a couple times, but service has been excellent
- No recurring fees (since I have lifetime subscription on the box)
- New interface on the Premiere looks like an improvement to me
- A little bit larger drive space/recording time

Bottom line: for everything my family and I have used the TivoHD for, the damn thing just works. My 8-year-old figured it out in a matter of minutes. I expect the Premiere to do more of the same, and so Tivo has earned my business. If you care to know, I'll let you know more about my experience with the Premiere when I receive it - hopefully in about a month.

b_scott

03-03-10, 01:35 PM

BillyDude

03-03-10, 02:08 PM

Quick question: Does anyone know how well the Series 4 will work with just an OTA HD antenna? Will the Guide still show the appropriate channels and all of the Season Pass and other features work seamlessly with ONLY OTA reception (i.e. no cable card)?

Background: I finally got fed up with the $90 per month DTV subscription. Plus, I've been unhappy with DTV since they moved to MPEG4 compression and I lost most of the HD channels on my beloved Hughes Tivo HDVR2. So just last month I canceled my DTV subscription and built a Home Theatre PC.

Well, now I find myself greatly missing my Tivo software. It doesn't matter whether I use Windows Media Center, Boxee or Hulu, these things are all poorly designed and buggy. In fact, I've found them surprisingly unsatisfactory. I always thought the Tivo usability and software design were good, but now that I'm a little more familiar with the state of the art elsewhere, I have to conclude that the Tivo interface nears perfection, at least comparatively.

But, I've also concluded that I can get enough of the content I want for free through a combination Over The Air HD reception and the internet. Yes, I miss the occasional Good Eats episode, but I can buy the cookbook. I miss Doctor Who, but I can get it from BBC online if I just lag by one season. I'll miss Flight of the Conchords if they ever do another season, but I can get that through Netflix. I can already get more sports from ESPN360 than I was getting on DTV anyway. Most of the other stuff I watch comes in HD over the air.

Ideally, the new Series 4 would be the solution to all my problems: the free content delivery of the HTPC with the software and usability of the Tivo. Nirvana!

But the Guide, Season Passes and all the other software will need to work with my OTA HD channels. Any idea if this will work? If so, I'm ready to order one now and demote the HTPC.