I'm posting this here because I'm concerned with bass output and my sub setup, and I've heard plenty other complain about it from HD DVD players but it doesn't seem like there has ever been a consensus that I could find.

I've got an HD-A1 connected to a yamaha 661 via HDMI. I currently have one SVS PB12/Plus. When I play certain things through it, like War of the Worlds, the bass is devastating.

However, when I do Transformers HD DVD or Bourne Ultimatum HD DVD, the bass is lacking. Its not even in the same league. I know others have said the bass on both of these is great. I have checked and rechecked my settings to make sure that dynamic range compression or something like that isn't turned on. So I left my gain on the sub at about 55% and boosted the LFE on the AVR from -5 to about +2. It was certainly more in line with what I was expecting.

So do I have something set up incorrectly? Is the LFE being sent to the AVR incorrectly? Or am I just expecting too much?

Its just with disks like WOTW if feels like the house is going go blow apart, and with HD DVDs with TrueHD or decoded dolby, it seems pretty weak.

well i had that problem at first with my A2...i changed some of the sound settings (i use optical for sound) so i had to change the HDMI input sound setting and that improved the sound by a sizable portion...running your receiver's bass a little hotter will certainly compensate for some DVD's that just are recorded at different levels...like i play transformers at about -10 and i cant turn WOTW up past -16 without my house exploding :) so different DVD's are funny...though it sounds like you have figured some things out...those are just my thoughts/opinions....hope this helps!

Ben

A lot of people found the LFE on transformers wanting. I'm one of them. If you have king kong on HD DVD then try that and watch the Kong vs T-Rex scene. If the LFE still seems weak then there's something wrong with your system. It's not WotW low, but it's low enough to see if there's something wrong.

None here, I made some setting changes per a thread here on AVS, is awesomeness a word. Sounds very good now on my dual PB12 +2 subs.

The War of the Worlds DTS track is recorded very hot. Add to that the fact that its LFE is very pronounced, and I think just about any other recording will seem "lacking." I too initially found the bass in Transformers to be a bit weak - using an SVS PB10-NSD and Infinity PS212 in an 11'x10' room. For me, boosting the subwoofer signal from my receiver from -7dB to -3dB made a big difference. My bass is calibrated to the same level by reducing my subwoofer's gain, but the bass response is far better. I'm using an A3 with optical, so I don't think it's strictly an HDMI issue. It seems like some HD DVDs need a stronger LFE signal from the receiver to give good bass. I could be wrong, but this is just my experience.

Speaking of transformers, go to the scene where Iron hide does that slow motion flip in the air over that women, and launches a grenade to bounce himself back up (Close to the end of the movie), if you don't find your house about to explode, then yes, their is something wrong with the setup somewhere. Other then that there are very rare instances in Transformers that will make your house blow apart, there is some bass here in there, but nothing like the ironhide scene.

There's been an issue with LFE audio over HDMI on many receivers (from different manufacturers). I don't remember all of the details but it involved a firmware update for my Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS. This update basically enabled a 10 dB boost option for LFE coming in over HDMI. If I recall correctly, the LFE is intentionally recorded "low" and played back "hot" to get more volume relative to the other channels. Normally that LFE boost is done automatically by the receiver's built-in DD or DTS decoders but some receivers neglect to boost the LFE when handling PCM audio over HDMI.

Edit: Lots of information here on the subject...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

There's been an issue with LFE audio over HDMI on many receivers (from different manufacturers). I don't remember all of the details but it involved a firmware update for my Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS. This update basically enabled a 10 dB boost option for LFE coming in over HDMI. If I recall correctly, the LFE is intentionally recorded "low" and played back "hot" to get more volume relative to the other channels. Normally that LFE boost is done automatically by the receiver's built-in DD or DTS decoders but some receivers neglect to boost the LFE when handling PCM audio over HDMI.

Edit: Lots of information here on the subject...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

I've done some looking in the 661 thread and I haven't found anyone reporting any mishandling of LFE with this unit. I also have a PS3, and everything coming from that thing is pretty impressive LFE wise. So could I assume that if its doing OK with the PS3 output the AVR is doing LFE correctly?

Speaking of transformers, go to the scene where Iron hide does that slow motion flip in the air over that women, and launches a grenade to bounce himself back up (Close to the end of the movie), if you don't find your house about to explode, then yes, their is something wrong with the setup somewhere. Other then that there are very rare instances in Transformers that will make your house blow apart, there is some bass here in there, but nothing like the ironhide scene.

I agree with this. The ironhide flip does a number and it does sound like I would expect the rest of the movie too. I just became concerned when I saw so many people saying the movie had crazy bass, and when it started I had to get up and check to see if the sub was still on. I guess its perception.

I've done some looking in the 661 thread and I haven't found anyone reporting any mishandling of LFE with this unit. I also have a PS3, and everything coming from that thing is pretty impressive LFE wise. So could I assume that if its doing OK with the PS3 output the AVR is doing LFE correctly?

Yeah, just thought I'd mention that as a possibility. The PS3 connected via HDMI should be sending PCM output, so if that sounds fine then your receiver is doing the right thing. For what it's worth, I have a PS3 and a HD-XA2 (previously a HD-A2) connected via HDMI and no issues with LFE output (since getting the updated firmware). I've also not heard of any such issue with the HD-A1.

As others have already said, the LFE on WoTW is mixed so hot and there's so much low, low frequency content, most other movies seem sorely lacking by comparison.

+1 on the Ironhide flip scene from Transformers. Really gets your attention if you've got your sub(s) cranked up! The helicopter scene in the beginning has some decent LFE too. I'll have to watch WoTW again now that I've got my second DIY 18" sub finished.

Yeah, just thought I'd mention that as a possibility. The PS3 connected via HDMI should be sending PCM output, so if that sounds fine then your receiver is doing the right thing. For what it's worth, I have a PS3 and a HD-XA2 (previously a HD-A2) connected via HDMI and no issues with LFE output (since getting the updated firmware). I've also not heard of any such issue with the HD-A1.

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Is the firmware update you're referring to for the PS3, or the HD-XA2, or both. And which version of the firmware update 'fixed' it?

I too have both a PS3 and an HD-XA2.

As previously mentioned the firmware update was for my receiver, the Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS.

As previously mentioned the firmware update was for my receiver, the Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS.

Thanks, I reread the thread and now see. That's what I get for skimming over things too quickly. :o

Well I'm convinced my A1 is not decoding LFE properly when its doing dolby decoding. I was just at home and tried this.

1. Put in Hot Fuzz HD DVD. Bass was WEAK. AVR reported it was getting PCM.
2. Changed no settings, flipped disk over to SD DVD side, played. AVR reported DD+. Bass was room shaking, that first part with the sliding doors part, rattled my teeth.

So someone explain that. Same input, same cable, only difference I can see is when the AVR decodes its fine, and when the DVD player does it its low on LFE. I tried getting bitstream to the AVR on the HD DVD side, but when I select bitstream in the DVD player, my AVR only lets me do PLIIx. So frustrating.

I'll leave this section for this, as it seems its not a bass issue but a player issue, but I just wanted to update and see if anyone had any thoughts.

1. Put in Hot Fuzz HD DVD. Bass was WEAK. AVR reported it was getting PCM.
2. Changed no settings, flipped disk over to SD DVD side, played. AVR reported DD+. Bass was room shaking, that first part with the sliding doors part, rattled my teeth.




I wasn't aware that any sd-dvd had DD+ on it. Did they start doing this recently, putting DD+ tracks on SD-DVDs?

I wasn't aware that any sd-dvd had DD+ on it. Did they start doing this recently, putting DD+ tracks on SD-DVDs?

I was thinking the same thing...DD+ is only on HD DVD and Blu ray, unless I'm sorely mistaken.

I have the same issues with Standard DVD vs HDDVD. As I understand it: Standard DVD's were given a 10% LFE boost when the DVD's were recorded by the studios as to have the same BASS setting that you would hear in the theater. When they came up with the HD standard the 10% LFE boost was gone. It's up to the individual to ad the boost at your reciever to what you want to hear. Yes, the receivers that are 2-years old to now were given a firmware update to boost the LFE track to PCM so that you could pass the HDDVD sound track via HDMI thru your receiver to TV. In order to get the full benifit of any LFE track in HD you really need a new reciever capable of coding the new HD tracks. Even than you will have to adjust the LFE track to your liking.

Bill

Well I'm convinced my A1 is not decoding LFE properly when its doing dolby decoding. I was just at home and tried this.

1. Put in Hot Fuzz HD DVD. Bass was WEAK. AVR reported it was getting PCM.
2. Changed no settings, flipped disk over to SD DVD side, played. AVR reported DD+. Bass was room shaking, that first part with the sliding doors part, rattled my teeth.

So someone explain that. Same input, same cable, only difference I can see is when the AVR decodes its fine, and when the DVD player does it its low on LFE. I tried getting bitstream to the AVR on the HD DVD side, but when I select bitstream in the DVD player, my AVR only lets me do PLIIx. So frustrating.

That makes sense because all of the DD/DTS decoders built into most receivers do the +10 dB LFE boost automatically. It appears that when your receiver gets a DD bitstream (from standard DVD), it does the right thing. With PCM input (as with most HD DVDs which have decoding done in the player), some receivers do not boost the LFE.

So it's a combination of the player's decoding and the receiver's handling of the LFE. It really sounds like your receiver is not boosting the LFE when the input is PCM over HDMI. But you said the PS3 works fine via HDMI (sending PCM)? That's the only part that doesn't quite add up.

If you can borrow a HD-A2 or later, or borrow another AVR to test, maybe that will help shed more light on exactly which unit is the "culprit".

That makes sense because all of the DD/DTS decoders built into most receivers do the +10 dB LFE boost automatically. It appears that when your receiver gets a DD bitstream (from standard DVD), it does the right thing. With PCM input (as with most HD DVDs which have decoding done in the player), some receivers do not boost the LFE.

So it's a combination of the player's decoding and the receiver's handling of the LFE. It really sounds like your receiver is not boosting the LFE when the input is PCM over HDMI. But you said the PS3 works fine via HDMI (sending PCM)? That's the only part that doesn't quite add up.

If you can borrow a HD-A2 or later, or borrow another AVR to test, maybe that will help shed more light on exactly which unit is the "culprit".

I would select "downmix to spdif" and see if that helps when watching HD-DVD's. My Onkyo 604 hasn't had any issues handling LFE in Multi-Channel PCM over HDMI from my HDA1. Don't think my AVR has any firmware updates but my A1 has been upgraded when I purchased it a month or so ago.

Well I've resolved this issue by trying some things in threads I found around the forum. I previously had the speaker settings and bass management set up in the player, because I was using analog outs. I got a new AVR and assumed those settings only applied to analog outs, wrongo. So I went into the speaker settings in the player, set all distances to 0, set all speakers to large, set all vols to 0, and the crossover to 120. It was immediately apparent that it resolved this issue. I guess it was hard for me to track down, because the player worked fine for audio with SD DVDs, and as mentioned above, it was only applying those settings to advanced audio codecs?

I hope other people look in this thread. I was one of the people who were not getting decent LFE on the Transformers disk, and yesterday with Bourne Ultimatum.

Interesting. I remember when receivers with DTS capability first started coming out and there was the same issue - some manufacturers were not implementing the DTS LFE properly, as they were forgetting to increase LFE by 10db.

Yes, the receivers that are 2-years old to now were given a firmware update to boost the LFE track to PCM so that you could pass the HDDVD sound track via HDMI thru your receiver to TV. In order to get the full benifit of any LFE track in HD you really need a new reciever capable of coding the new HD tracks. Even than you will have to adjust the LFE track to your liking.

Bill



VSX-82TXS
How do I update the firmware??? I need more bass, my old player sounded better ;(

VSX-82TXS
How do I update the firmware??? I need more bass, my old player sounded better ;(

Call Pioneer and ask about the firmware update. They should direct you to a nearby authorized repair place.

Bill

I also seem to have this problem with PSM on my Yamaha 6090, well at lest I think I do. My receiver was just purchased this week. Has anyone tested the 6090 to see if they can verify this problem. My only concern is the 6090 I have was actually listed as a 6090B.. so I am unsure if the firmware has been updated or not..

any help