Why was this thread completely deleted and not just closed?

There were some good opinions that could be benficial.

Why not just edit out the posts that may not be deemed appropriate and restore the rest in a "closed" status with a "message" from the moderator?:confused:

Why was this thread completely deleted and not just closed?

There were some good opinions that could be benficial.

Why not just edit out the posts that may not be deemed appropriate and restore the rest in a "closed" status with a "message" from the moderator?:confused:

Conspiracy - THX forced AVS to close the thread b/c it was getting too close to the truth. I was just reading through it and about to post seeing as I actually know something about wire.

Would be interested in seeing it back so we can intelligently debate the merits (or lack thereof) of THX rating wire and cable.

Carl

Why not just edit out the posts that may not be deemed appropriate and restore the rest in a "closed" status with a "message" from the moderator?:confused:

Probably because there were only about 5 posts in the entire thread that had any value. The other 99.9% was childish bickering. In my opinion there are some who should be banned.

super... then put back the 5 posts and at least provide a reason (and a slapping) why the thread has been edited/closed. Complete deletion IMO was unnecessary.

I'd still like a moderator to explain.

(and to add... I don't remember you participating in that discussion, so... )

I only made it through the first 2 pages reading the posts before it was gone. Very interesting how much mis-information there was in the original thread by THX zealots.

Carl

I know that mods monitor the forums and I have "reported" this thread requesting an explanation. After almost 6 hours... nothing.

Perhaps your thoughts indicated in post #2 may have some substance. If so... that's sad.

Well, we could always try trashing THX in this thread, too, and see if the same thing happens!:D

The moderators seem pretty invisible here (as opposed to some oter forums of my acquaintance), but I'm pretty new here and maybe I just haven't noticed them yet. Still, I doubt fedders's conspiracy theory. That thread contained multiple posts with personal slanders and/or insults, which would be reason enough to pull a thread down, rather than just close it.

I'm sure we'll get other chances to discuss THX certification in the future--perhaps with a bit more perspective and a bit less venom.

OK, then to start the discussion in the right direction - what could THX certification add to speaker wire and interconnects? I 'get' the idea behind certification of amplifiers and processors (although I don't put a lot of emphasis into it). I also 'get' speaker certification (although I totally ignore it for speakers).

What could even be certified in wire and interconnects that would benefit the consumer?

And remembering back to the original thread, what good is THX certification for wire/interconnects (other than pure marketing) if their standards are not clearly published?

Carl

...what could THX certification add to speaker wire and interconnects?

Nothing... unless you only use Mon$ter products. :rolleyes:

http://www.thx.com/news/20050331A.html
http://www.thx.com/products/home/cables.html

EDIT:
And still no response from AVS mods as to why the entire thread had been deleted.

OK, then to start the discussion in the right direction - what could THX certification add to speaker wire and interconnects?
In the deleted thread, it was suggested that, among the standards, THX required color-coding the wires to insure proper connections, and also that the wires be rated for in-wall use (although it's not clear what the basis for those assertions was, since the standards are proprietary). Obviously, neither of those things affects the sound, nor is there any standard that could affect the sound unless it were based on wire length. (And I don't think the Monster packaging says, "THX certified for up to XX feet.")

But this is why certification is borderline useless for consumers. Unless you know what the standards are, you can't possibly know whether they apply to your situation or not.

I 'get' the idea behind certification of amplifiers and processors (although I don't put a lot of emphasis into it).
From what I've been able to glean, they seem way over-specified. Yes, it's nice to know your amp will never clip, but the occasional clipped transient probably isn't audible. So a certified amp is certainly better than one that couldn't meet the standard, but it may not matter on a practical level in most situations. I think if I were building a dedicated home theater, I'd take THX seriously. For the vast majority of folks who are using a general living space, it's overkill.

I also 'get' speaker certification (although I totally ignore it for speakers).
There are an awful lot of great speakers out there that aren't on their list. Part of this has to do with things like sub crossover points--issues where there's more than one legitimate point of view. THX's way of doing things is very good, but it's not the only good way to do things. They know a lot about sound, but they are not the font of all wisdom.

I'd also like to know why the THX wiring thread was deleted so quickly.... :confused:

Maybe because it was cruel to pets?

http://www.kaybees.de/img/digi_thx.gif

H-m-m-m... after 20 hours and no response or explanation, I'd say the lack of an answer from an AVS moderator is the answer.

Pretty sad (if true) that on a public forum that censorship can be enforced from a manufacturer(s).

I would think that AVS would 'off the hook' if all they do is post a disclaimer stating that "opinions expressed on the forum do not reflect the opinions of the AVS forum owners".

If THX or Mon$ter would like to counter any of the opinions/statements made on the forum, they are free participate on the forum and speak up to make their rebuttles as opposed to strong arming to eliminate negative opinions about their products and/or marketing stategies.

If I am off base with my assumption(s), I apologize. Feel free to set the record straight.

Silence is golden... sometimes. :)

So... no one from AVS is going to make a statement?
If not, I guess Mon$ter and THX is a very large benefactor to AVS.

Kinda like the KGB... some things just happen to "disappear" with no need for an explanation.

I would expect more from a group of "professionals".

I assumed it was pulled because too many people had sand in their vaginas.

Childish responses such as yours is one type of contribution that is a perfect example. Good input... Thanks. :rolleyes:

Nude sandcastle sculpture. Yeah, it's childish, but strangely, I can't look away and wish I were Mr. Sandman.

http://www.beer.com/assets/images/photos/0511/051121_nude_sandcastle_le.jpg

Childish responses such as yours is one type of contribution that is a perfect example. Good input... Thanks. :rolleyes:

And childish "calling out the mods" threads are a good way to get banned.

There's a lot less mod interference on this forum than many others. I thought it was pretty obvious why the THX thread got canned. Just like this one will be.

And childish "calling out the mods" threads are a good way to get banned.

There's a lot less mod interference on this forum than many others. I thought it was pretty obvious why the THX thread got canned. Just like this one will be.

I'm sorry, but please, if you have nothing to contribute, no need to respond. I don't think I can be "banned" by stating my opinion and requesting an explanation. I have broken no forum rules.

Thanks again for your excellent contribution of wisdom.

Good for Ratman for asking what why it was deleted. It was a bit disorderly (like many other good threads here) and had some THX bashing, but nothing to compare with what we toss at Monster Cable and Bose.

May I suggest though that you just switch this back? Post something on the issue- What is it that makes THX certification of wire of import to the end user?

Is the answer still that there is little or nothing of import?

I used to think that there was something to be said of THX standards but they should be published (at least in the way UL does it). They could make their money by requiring companies to pay them for product testing and the license to use the THX seal. Still what could they ask of wire?

fedders- why are your products worth buying? What specs or standards are important and why? Are your products made in the US, and if not how do you assure quality control?

Good for Ratman for asking what why it was deleted.


NP... still waiting to hear anything from AVS/moderator. Quick to close, not quick to answer. :p

my .02 Cents, I genuinely get a thrill when the Local AV BB Store sales Rep grabs a pkg. of Monster this or that off of the shelf when I ask for some 12-14 Gauge Speaker Wire or connectors or whatever to go from point A-B! I am always too glad to kindly reply that I woldn't take Monster Anything if it was FREE! Of course, I would but it feels real good to say that and hope they bite for a 'discussion' as to the merits of Monster Cable......Today I had a Ratshack, no offense Ratman, employee offer me THX certified interconnects by guess who? Monster.......anyway, I was in too much of a hurry to get home and make my own Bi-Ampable Speaker Cables to LAY IT OUT for him.....

Anyway, Merry Christmas!
Joe

Anyone from AVS that can provide a reason? If it's "top secret", you can always reach me via PM and we can let this thread go to rest. Thanks

The moderators seem pretty invisible here (as opposed to some oter forums of my acquaintance), but I'm pretty new here and maybe I just haven't noticed them yet. Still, I doubt fedders's conspiracy theory. That thread contained multiple posts with personal slanders and/or insults, which would be reason enough to pull a thread down, rather than just close it.

The mods aren't invisible here in fact; they just tend to be discrete with their wrist-slappings.;)

Look, you can't convince a skeptic of anything, because the insistence is that no evidence is sufficient. The funny part of it all is that people posting on this board aren't tasked with supporting a company's reason for existence if someone else disagrees with it--but that's what the thread became hence its deletion. I think the whole thing needed to be deleted--but the reason people weren't banned is precisely because the bickering started with skeptics asking people (like me) on this forum to justify THX's existence--which clearly isn't my job.

The only ones they hurt are themselves, but my problem is the brainwashing and surreptitious PMs that occur to new people wanting objective info.

... because the bickering started with skeptics asking people (like me) on this forum to justify THX's existence--which clearly isn't my job.

And yet again...
to resurface the point. No one whatsoever is "skeptical" over the "value" of THX cerification(s), with the exception of wires/interconnects, which appears to be primarily an alliance of THX and Mon$ter.

You said the info can be found and it can't. If you state that the specs are published and can be found (by anyone), please direct us to the info to substantiate your statement. If you can't, we can accept your apology. But please, don't make everyone else out to be the "bad guy".

And yet again...
to resurface the point. No one whatsoever is "skeptical" over the "value" of THX cerification(s), with the exception of wires/interconnects, which appears to be primarily an alliance of THX and Mon$ter.

You said the info can be found and it can't. If you state that the specs are published and can be found (by anyone), please direct us to the info to substantiate your statement. If you can't, we can accept your apology. But please, don't make everyone else out to be the "bad guy".

My point is, the difficulty or lack thereof in finding the information in no way detracts from the validity of THX's point of view. Issues of national security for example are far from public domain, but just because it isn't in your face doesn't mean the task is less important. By focusing on that, a strawman is created--unfortunately a rather irrelevant one.

I never ask for apologies BTW.

My point is, the difficulty or lack thereof in finding the information in no way detracts from the validity of THX's point of view.

Without any information it is impossible to judge the validity of THX point of view. Or to even know what their point of view is. Yet you keep defending it, whatever it is...

Other than measuring resistance, capacitance, and impedance of the wire, I can't see anything else that could be specified. Maybe some physical requirement like the thickness of the outer jacket?

I've inquired with THX in the past (last year's CEDIA) to see what would be required and THX is "not interested" in any other "partners" at this time. Gotta love marketing.

Carl

I find it downright facinating that if an individual on 'building' an entire A/V system, has the desire to be 100% THX compliant and may invest thousands of dollars (amps, decoders, speakers, etc), that he/she has only one choice for cables/wire. I'd be willing to bet that most any wire/cable manufacturer can meet and/or exceed the THX/Mon$ter certification criteria. If it were that 'important', I would expect that all manufacturers would be champing at the bit to display the "THX" logo. Common sense would indicate that they don't see any benefit.

What makes Mon$ter so much "better" compared to other esoteric wire/cable manufacturers (Shunyata, Kimber, Chimera, MIT, Cobalt, etc.), that may cost hundreds/thousands more?

If THX had a certification for antennas, Terk would probably be the sole certification in that category. ;)

Actually, Monster is not the only supplier of THX certified wire and cable. As I've said before, there is perfectly good wire products available that are not THX certified ... it just means you need to know if the product is appropriate to your use.

According to the THX website, you are correct 2 out of 69 products are not Mon$ter. ;)

Dennis, I respect your experience and background and also appreciate the fact that there is more to "certification" than the wire(s) itself (jackets, connectors, netting, stress tolerance, etc.) as you indicated in the deleted thread.

But....... I feel that the THX label for cables/wires is misleading to those that may not have a lot of experience/exposure to other offerings that are quite equitable or better. And based on those marketing practices, that may limit one's ability to make a "practical" descision.

Arguendo there is something to be said in favor of THX standards, but nothing to be said about secret standards or silly standards.

Here is what Mon. Cable says about its THX certified speaker wire and pin connectors-- (emphasis added)

Monster Ultra™ Series THX® 1000 Speaker Cable with Monster Tips®
This THX certified speaker cable is for highest performance hookup of home theatre system, AV receiver, or amplifier to home theatre speakers. Ultra 1000Speaker Cable features larger copper conductors that deliver the power you need for powerful, dynamic home theatre sound.

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable
Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier. Delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound.

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Connectors
Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Connectors offer a simplified way to hook-up surround sound speaker configurations. 24k gold connectors lock into place for long-lasting reliability, best possible signal transfer and corrosion resistance.

Claims like "larger copper conductors" are the worst kind of unethical advertising--larger than what is never answered. What next? THX certified knobs or little pointy feet? It seems to me that when it all started the idea was electronics that could meet certain objective standards (noise, full power bandwidth, etc.) and theaters that had low noise levels and an even soundfield. It all made sense. But plain old wire or even audio coax? Give us a break. The odor of greed is in the air.

Well, guys. THX has standards. Manufacturers *may* voluntarily submit their products for testing. Once certified THX has no control over the 'spirited' writers in someone's marketing department.

Well, guys. THX has standards. Manufacturers *may* voluntarily submit their products for testing. Once certified THX has no control over the 'spirited' writers in someone's marketing department.

Mr. Erskine I'm afraid you have the wrong end on this one.

The earlier post by Carl suggests that for wire at least they are not open to requests for all manufacturers. Words like partnership and collaboration suggest a vendor driven or favored customer process at the very best.

An ethical standards organization or a manufacturer that certifies products by other makers as suitable for use with its product, will normally ristrict license and certificate holders in many ways, including marketing claims

But I have to say that Monster actually says very little about THX--

So, Monster joined forces with THX, the leader in audio/video quality assurance programs for select movie theatres, home theatre components, and DVDs. And a new breed of home theatre cable was born.

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable features three times more copper content than other cables

Over time, the exposure to air causes the bare copper wire to corrode. That's why THX, the industry leader in sound quality certification for movie theatres, collaborated with Monster Cable to create connection standards specifically for home theatre speaker connections.

So I guess that magnetic flux tubes aside, they only claims relating to THX are--

Monster collaborated in creating the standard.
Their cables have more copper than some other cables.
Gold plated connectors are more corrosion resistant than bare wire.

This seeming joint venture with Noel Lee seems a very poor idea for THX, but how many times does short term revenue gain trump everything else?:rolleyes:

By the way I have a THX certified receiver. I like it. I also once owned a power amp that was subsequently certified by THX. I like it. But it was a good product before it went to THX. I still own own an earlier model -never certified but of better build quality. But without open standards this venture into wire has reduced the value of their other "standards" at least for me.

We can only hope that honest installers and designers will not sell through higher priced products based upon some very suspect THX so-called standard.

Except that not every company can submit products (nor will they tell you what is required for certification). Again, they are not interested in any other manufacturers being added beyond Monster and the few Liberty products that remain.

It is a marketing strategy of trying to align the Monster image with the THX image for the great uneducated masses.

Carl

Actually, Monster is not the only supplier of THX certified wire and cable. As I've said before, there is perfectly good wire products available that are not THX certified ... it just means you need to know if the product is appropriate to your use.

Absolutely. All this talk of "defending" THX is nonsense. I've also said many times that many pieces not certified are more than capable. What I think the real issue is the fact that Monster is the most visible co-brander of THX, and the hatred here for them is well-known (albeit unjustified). That of course has nothing to do with THX.

Mr. Erskine I'm afraid you have the wrong end on this one.

The earlier post by Carl suggests that for wire at least they are not open to requests for all manufacturers. Words like partnership and collaboration suggest a vendor driven or favored customer process at the very best.

THX will still not certify something that's less than a good performing product.

Monster collaborated in creating the standard.

OK, so they created a standard for commercially-sold cables. If the brand wasn't Monster nobody here would blink. Let's not confuse the messenger with the message.
Their cables have more copper than some other cables.

Fact.
Gold plated connectors are more corrosion resistant than bare wire.

True.

This seeming joint venture with Noel Lee seems a very poor idea for THX...

To some on this forum with agenda, I would certainly concur.

By the way I have a THX certified receiver. I like it. I also once owned a power amp that was subsequently certified by THX. I like it. But it was a good product before it went to THX. I still own own an earlier model -never certified but of better build quality. But without open standards this venture into wire has reduced the value of their other "standards" at least for me.

It shouldn't, but you also know (and probably knew beforehand) that the process is paid and requires submission and certification. The standards are not less-important because of the individual placement strategies manufacturers make to present THX to the customer.

I always find it amusing the sheer arrogance of this forum. All of a sudden, an industry leader and well-known proponent of performance has to justify its existence to a bunch of keyboard jockeys with an agenda. Even better, one forum member has been singled out to carry their flag simply because he reminded people of that fact.:rolleyes:

Schticker,

What are you talking about? You are the only one that is perceiving personal agendas here. It was pretty evident that the original thread was deleted due to some obscure motivations!

But in the same line of tought, now your posts here also makes me wonder if you have an agenda as well.... :rolleyes:

Exactly... it seems that we are unable to have a "discussion" and state an opinion. One individual can only ride on coattails and respond with condescending remarks (as was done in the original thread), which is unnecessary.

Hopefully, the mods will edit appropriately without deletion of the entire thread.

Exactly... it seems that we are unable to have a "discussion" and state an opinion. One individual can only ride on coattails and respond with condescending remarks (as was done in the original thread), which is unnecessary.

Hopefully, the mods will edit appropriately without deletion of the entire thread.

Hopefully the mods will not delete a post simply because a couple people disagree with it. That's what discussion is all about.

You can disagree as much as you like... just stop with the snide remarks and your posts won't be deleted. ;)

The horse is still kicking. Bring bigger sticks.

schticker, your posts are always interesting; you are the loyal opposition on many topics. I say that even though I sense a certain disdain in some of your posts, going back to your old infinite monkey signature block. (Cheap shot follows with apology in advance.) Did you change it because it came to you that there was no way to distinguish you or me or any of us from the monkeys?

I find no fault in an industry that develops or participates in developing standards or with proprietary standards per se, DIN, SAE, ASE, UL, most US government rule making etc. But it would be rare now to find a case of a single manufacturer being the only collaborator and the only one with certification. A search of the Liberty Cable web site leads me to think that all of the THX speaker cables are from Monster Cable.

But look what THX claims of about certification-

Each product carrying the THX brand is much more than a seal of approval. Certification represents months of building, testing and reviewing products and content to meet THX performance requirements. When you see the THX logo, you are selecting superior performance for exceptional entertainment experiences.

For displays and amplifiers THX at lest makes a mention of some of the performance areas covered by the standard and the requirement to include THX proprietary technology and names several large companies involved in setting the standard.

For other THX categories there is no hint of an objective standard or of more than one manufacturer participating in developing the standard.

Here is the specific and only THX claimed benefit for cables--

These cables are color coded, making home theater equipment installation easier than ever.

Nothing about "magnetic flux tubes" or "greater power transfer"

But wait, there's more!

As to Monster marketing claims, I must own up to something here. I did not do a complete job of looking at the actual Monster claims for its three THX speaker cables/plugs.

After all there were “months of building, testing and reviewing” by THX, the top of the line claims -

Exceeds THX® certification standards for proper system performance, reliability and ease of installation.

The base product claims-

Meets minimum THX® certification standards for proper system performance, reliability and ease of installation

From this I can be sure that the wires are color coded, probably do not degrade performance and can be easily inserted at the speaker and amp terminals.

They are also quite honest about the claims of more copper. MC is 16 AWG and the claim is "Based on comparison with popular, all-in-one home theater speaker wire".

But look what THX claims of about certification.

Each product carrying the THX brand is much more than a seal of approval. Certification represents months of building, testing and reviewing products and content to meet THX performance requirements. When you see the THX logo, you are selecting superior performance for exceptional entertainment experiences.

Color coding must be more arcane than I would have thought.

By the way I don't hate Monster Cable. I’ve a pair of MC audio cables that have been in continuous service since the early 1980’s (along with a no-name pair from Sansui). From what I know they have good build quality--their 16 AWG cable is at lest as good as my 16 AWG outdoor lighting cable. Their 24k gold (something or other) terminators are likely as good as or better than others who also avoid the question of application method or thickness.

Noel Lee has a business that grosses somewhere between 100 and 500 million dollars a year. He charges what the market will bear. He lives and works in California and hopefully is doing his share to deal with our insane deficit. Nothing to hate there.

I disapprove of his marketing techniques and of his self-satisfaction in employing low wage immigrant labor. Further I suspect that his made in the USA products are increasingly just packaged or assembled in the USA. I suspect that very little wire and cable is made in his single building and that he sources it in China, but does not say it. The occasional TV footage of his factory shows only office work and packaging by his happy multicultural work force. So yes I have issues with Monster Cable as I would with any snake-oil style vender who promotes himself as a good employer because he has deliberately sought to employ immigrant workers. I am concerned that snake-oil claims undermine honest and objective marketing and product evaluation and because his business practices seem to me to undermine the social good of a well or fairly paid (and tax paying) workforce. We can, by not being silent and by our buying decisions, do something about the first in places like these fora. As to a well paid workforce, that ship has sailed on many products, so why add to the misery by bringing in low wage immigrants for which we pay a long term social cost. But that is a discussion for another place.

The horse is still kicking. Bring bigger sticks.

schticker, your posts are always interesting; you are the loyal opposition on many topics. I say that even though I sense a certain disdain in some of your posts, going back to your old infinite monkey signature block. (Cheap shot follows with apology in advance.) Did you change it because it came to you that there was no way to distinguish you or me or any of us from the monkeys?

Opposition. Try voice of reason.

My apparent "disdain" is towards the concept that certain lifers on forums like this get. After enough time, they start to think questioning the obvious somehow grants them the appearance of true objectivity, and that anyone that thinks otherwise is a shill, idiot, noob, or otherwise ill-informed. Reminds me of an old woman that's lived in a neighborhood so long, she begins to think she makes the rules and can get in everyone's business, regardless of her actual involvement in neighborhood affairs or rules. Quick hint--participation on a forum (no matter the perceived impressions it offers to the outside world) doesn't change reality.

I find no fault in an industry that develops or participates in developing standards or with proprietary standards per se, DIN, SAE, ASE, UL, most US government rule making etc. But it would be rare now to find a case of a single manufacturer being the only collaborator and the only one with certification. A search of the Liberty Cable web site leads me to think that all of the THX speaker cables are from Monster Cable.

Those companies certify things that have to do with life and death. Not so much with A/V cabling. The standards are based around performance, but are not mandated like the others.

For displays and amplifiers THX at lest makes a mention of some of the performance areas covered by the standard and the requirement to include THX proprietary technology and names several large companies involved in setting the standard.

For other THX categories there is no hint of an objective standard or of more than one manufacturer participating in developing the standard.

Ever heard of an "evolving standard?" I would suspect that if many other companies submitted their products for approval they would pass. Currently, the business agreement is for limited companies to participate. I'm sure you realize that doesn't necessarily imply that anyone is doing something wrong, although the internet culture with its borderline-socialist mindset may think exclusivity otherwise.

I disapprove of his marketing techniques and of his self-satisfaction in employing low wage immigrant labor. Further I suspect that his made in the USA products are increasingly just packaged or assembled in the USA. I suspect that very little wire and cable is made in his single building and that he sources it in China, but does not say it.

Like I've said many times--outside agendas that have nothing to do with THX. You all aren't slick enough to fool anyone into thinking that the THX bashing was anything other than another anti-Monster Cable protest march. Now we delve into immigrant labor? Try to stay on topic; or at least veil your agendas to at least appear objective.

So... THX certified cables are "the best" for THX certified A/V gear? Or any gear?

Even ignoring the fact that Mon$ter is 99% of the certified cables, wouldn't one be skeptical that only ONE (generally) cable manufacturer meets or feels the need to get certification?

It sure makes me question the validity/necessity.

So... THX certified cables are "the best" for THX certified A/V gear? Or any gear?

Not necessarily. It's simply a certification.

Even ignoring the fact that Mon$ter is 99% of the certified cables,

This is AVS, so that's an utter impossibility.

wouldn't one be skeptical that only ONE (generally) cable manufacturer meets or feels the need to get certification?

I frankly think it's a good move for Monster. If I were in charge, I would have made that move as well. Why not?

It sure makes me question the validity/necessity.

C E R T F I C A T I O N

That is all. Is Good Housekeeping's Seal the mark of utter superiority? Not necessarily, but it's a good guidepoint. And for many, it's an additional layer of comfort in an ever-confusing and ever-cheapening industry.

schticker, if a THX product is not necessarily better than a non-THX product then is there reason to justify the extra expense on certification even if the added cost of certification is by no means an indication of superior quality or performance ?

Thanks.

--Regards,

schticker, if a THX product is not necessarily better than a non-THX product then is there reason to justify the extra expense on certification even if the added cost of certification is by no means an indication of superior quality or performance ?
Do you mean an extra cost to the consumer? Are you certain there IS an extra cost to the consumer? If so, how do you know this?

As I said in the other thread, that manufacturers have spun the presence of 'THX certification' into a marketing device and that miseducated and/or ignorant consumers may fall prey to such is not the fault of Lucasfilms (or whoever it is). I'd blame it on the consumer. Or capitalism. But I think you'd be really hard-pressed to prove that the THX certification is TRULY affecting the asking price of a product.

It's possible the certification/testing could be "free". But, I'd be willing to bet that a royalty or licencing fee is involved to display the THX logo on any product(s).

schticker--You are very good at this sir. Voice of reason implies that we are the voices of unreason. You are of course almost right. Some of us on some occassions do post unreasoned replies.

I must agree however that if this were a criminal law court I could not impeach MC for prior bad acts. Also it is a bit off track on the issue of whether THX cable certification has any value to the end user. As fedders put it, "OK, then to start the discussion in the right direction - what could THX certification add to speaker wire and interconnects?"

On that point I've heard of evolving standards. I even grasp the concept. But that is not the issue. The issue is an unpublished and unexplained proprietary standard, developed with only one marketer and seemingly without the participation of either academia or competing makers, and which seems to be closed to new participants. Really where does that leave us?

If you care for having an industry in which end users can make informed buying decisions, then decry this particular THX venture for what it is. It is an empty and misleading standard, that will confuse buyers and prolong the snake oil and silly claims marketing used by far too many in the audio/visual industry. It harkens back to the pre-FTC power output claims era. Lies and near lies intended to confuse and mislead and obfuscate the very real differences between various amplifiers.

The Good Housekeeping Seal is entirely different. It has open commercial element and a clear promise of satisfaction, but not a promise of superior anything. Does it work? I don't know.

The Good Housekeeping Consumer's Policy, published in every issue of the magazine, states that if a product bearing the Seal proves to be defective within two years of purchase, Good Housekeeping will replace the product or refund the purchase price.

The Seal may be carried only by those products whose ads have been reviewed and accepted for publication in Good Housekeeping.(Emphasis added.)

The answer to fedder's question is clear. THX cable certification adds nothing, except cost for the user. Although if the user believes that bad speaker cables are commonly sold the answer is different. For that person THX certification adds a feeling of confidence to the buying decision.

After all it is a bit better than the fake awards those white van net sites use. MC has CEA awards. You know, given to those who pay the fees and send in self written justifications; the ones not judged on objective criteria, measurements, listening panels or proved results. For honest marketing that is right there with some wine awards that have so many categories that every winery wins at least one. Sometimes they win all of them when no one else competes. :rolleyes:

schticker--You are very good at this sir. Voice of reason implies that we are the voices of unreason. You are of course almost right. Some of us on some occassions do post unreasoned replies.

I think the sad part is many here especially have forgotten how to formulate their own thoughts and arguments, and simply parrot the "I hate Monster and anything associated" bandwagon. That presents to the new member a poor impression of what they do. Even if you disagree with business practices, their stuff scopes well and performs. Might even be a shade overbuilt.

I must agree however that if this were a criminal law court I could not impeach MC for prior bad acts. Also it is a bit off track on the issue of whether THX cable certification has any value to the end user.

I agree. So shall we cease with the association and hold THX up to what it represents? Monster is but one dealing. And last I checked, beating others to the punch isn't immoral. If Monster didn't create the THX agreement, some even more undeserving company like AR would have been hot on the trail.

On that point I've heard of evolving standards. I even grasp the concept. But that is not the issue. The issue is an unpublished and unexplained proprietary standard, developed with only one marketer and seemingly without the participation of either academia or competing makers, and which seems to be closed to new participants. Really where does that leave us?

I would imagine if you are the first to market with anything, there would be nothing to compare to. That really isn't all that unusual. Let's revisit this in a few years when many companies decide they want the logo.

Lies and near lies intended to confuse and mislead and obfuscate the very real differences...

What are the lies in question? Does the product fail to live up to what they claim?

Although if the user believes that bad speaker cables are commonly sold the answer is different. For that person THX certification adds a feeling of confidence to the buying decision.

I wonder how much really the "added cost" here is. We talk of lack of comparisons, but there isn't any there either. For many, comfort has value. No problem there.

It's possible the certification/testing could be "free". But, I'd be willing to bet that a royalty or licencing fee is involved to display the THX logo on any product(s).
But the question is does that really significantly affect (if at all) the price of a manufacturer's mass-produced product? Do you think that Monster, for example, wouldn't ask the same price for its products if they were not THX-certified? Let's not be naive, here.


THX cable certification adds nothing, except cost for the user.
And why are you so certain that it adds cost for the user? And do you mean the cost of certification must be covered by the user or do you mean that a manufacturer may ask an inflated price for his product because it is certified. They're two VERY different things.

It is an empty and misleading standard, that will confuse buyers and prolong the snake oil and silly claims marketing used by far too many in the audio/visual industry. It harkens back to the pre-FTC power output claims era. Lies and near lies intended to confuse and mislead and obfuscate the very real differences between various amplifiers.
No, it's actually quite the opposite. Its original intent was to provide for a set of standards so that consumers couldn't or wouldn't be duped or mislead by snake oil and false manufacturing claims.

Its original intent was to provide for a set of standards so that consumers couldn't or wouldn't be duped or mislead by snake oil and false manufacturing claims.
Kind of ironic that's it's now being used by the company that re-defined "snake oil."

Kind of ironic that's it's now being used by the company that re-defined "snake oil."
And what does "used" mean?

mcnarus,
I got this one.......

Miles,
I think that mcnarus was referring to #3, not sure though.

Used according to Websters.com

1.previously used or owned; secondhand: a used car. 2.showing wear or being worn out. 3.employed for a purpose; utilized.


even better one:

use http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fused) /v. yuz or, for pt. form of 9, yust; n. yus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. yooz or, for pt. form of 9, yoost; n. yoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, used, us·ing, noun –verb (used with object) 1.to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife. 2.to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities. 3.to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided. 4.to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration. 5.to take unfair advantage of; exploit: to use people to gain one's own ends. 6.to drink, smoke, or ingest habitually: to use drugs. 7.to habituate or accustom. 8.Archaic. to practice habitually or customarily; make a practice of. –verb (used without object) 9.to be accustomed, wont, or customarily found (used with an infinitive expressed or understood, and, except in archaic use, now only in the past): He used to go every day. 10.Archaic. to resort, stay, or dwell customarily. –noun 11.the act of employing, using, or putting into service: the use of tools. 12.the state of being employed or used. 13.an instance or way of employing or using something: proper use of the tool; the painter's use of color. 14.a way of being employed or used; a purpose for which something is used: He was of temporary use. The instrument has different uses. 15.the power, right, or privilege of employing or using something: to lose the use of the right eye; to be denied the use of a library card. 16.service or advantage in or for being employed or used; utility or usefulness: of no practical use. 17.help; profit; resulting good: What's the use of pursuing the matter? 18.occasion or need, as for something to be employed or used: Would you have any use for another calendar? 19.continued, habitual, or customary employment or practice; custom: to follow the prevailing use of such occasions. 20.Law. a.the enjoyment of property, as by the employment, occupation, or exercise of it. b.the benefit or profit of lands and tenements in the possession of another who simply holds them for the beneficiary. c.the equitable ownership of land to which the legal title is in another's name. 21.Liturgy. the distinctive form of ritual or of any liturgical observance used in a particular church, diocese, community, etc. 22.usual or customary experience.

Kind of ironic that's it's now being used by the company that re-defined "snake oil."

Actually the Internet Culture has defined it as such. I would defy anyone to look at a Monster's response--measured, for the Objectivist Nazis here--and tell us all how it's lacking in performance.

Monster's guilty of one thing, and it really only matters to people needing too much detail in explanation--that is that the method in explaining benefits is grossly oversimplified. That's a problem not at retail, where it is a great benefit to fast floors, but on chat forums where people insist on a white paper bible packaged with every cable.

No, it's actually quite the opposite. Its original intent was to provide for a set of standards so that consumers couldn't or wouldn't be duped or mislead by snake oil and false manufacturing claims.

What are the standards? And how does that make a THX cable any better than 12/2 from home depot?

Still also very telling that Skywalker studios does not use THX certified cable in the systems.I wonder why that is?

And how does that make a THX cable any better than 12/2 from home depot?Who claimed THX certification necessarily makes a product "better"? Their "clever" marketing may have lead some to believe that, but I don't think that even Monster has blatantly made that claim. Home Depot 12/2 may actually have a quality and characteristics that are well above the standards for THX certification. What makes a cable "better", anyway?

THX certification is no different from any other product "standard", even governmentally regulated standards. And it's used by manufacturers for marketing purposes just as any such "standards" are used by manufacturers for marketing purposes. You're always hearing that such and such product meets such and such "standards".

Just like anything else, buyer beware. A "seal of approval" doesn't necessarily mean a product is better than another "non-approved" product.

Who claimed THX certification makes a product necessarily "better"? Their "clever" marketing may have lead some to believe that, but I don't think that even Monster has blatantly made that claim. Home Depot 12/2 may actually have a quality and characteristics that are well above the standards for THX certification. What makes a cable "better", anyway?

THX certification is no different from any other product "standard", even governmentally regulated standards. And it's used by manufacturers for marketing purposes just as crash test ratings are used by manufacturers for marketing purposes.

Just like anything else, buyer beware. A "seal of approval" doesn't mean a product is necessarily better than another.

I guess what I was seeing is that as you stated its "original" intent. I think we can see its really not that way at all.

But the question is does that really significantly affect (if at all) the price of a manufacturer's mass-produced product? Do you think that Monster, for example, wouldn't ask the same price for its products if they were not THX-certified? Let's not be naive, here.

Naive?

from http://digitalcontentproducer.com/displaypres/revfeat/avinstall_digital_quality/

The THX testing and certification process is part of a licensing program that ultimately adds to the manufacturer's cost of goods sold. How much the licensing fee is depends on the type of product, sales volumes, and other factors that aren't readily quotable. Suffice it to say that manufacturers need to feel it's enough of an asset to warrant the additional cost.

IMO... the certification/licencing fee(s) are passed on to the consumer in some fashion. They pay to carry the logo to increase sales/profits and I highly doubt that the profit from increased sales of THX labled cable/wire alone covers those fees. It quite possible that Mon$ter just jacks up the retail price of every product across the board to offset the fee(s).

Naive?



IMO... the certification/licencing fee(s) are passed on to the consumer in some fashion. They pay to carry the logo to increase sales/profits and I highly doubt that the profit from increased sales of THX labled cable/wire alone covers those fees. It quite possible that Mon$ter just jacks up the retail price of every product across the board to offset the fee(s).

I read the above link and wanted to post a rather disappointing fact from the article....

"THX is not a standards organization, per se, such as the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) or the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE). Rather, THX is a for-profit company that has carved out a niche in developing high-quality standard operating procedures and practices for audio production and audiovisual equipment. That big-sound trailer is the most recognizable aspect of THX, but AV professionals will also recognize THX from its certification of high-quality consumer audio gear from amplifiers to home theater cabling."

A friend of mine once taught me the phrase "the hint of impropriety is sometimes worse than the act itself", and in this case while there is not proof that THX will certify any given product for enough of a FEE, there is enough doubt about the parameters used being brought up, when especially considering the comments a few posts ago about internet/bloggers need for White Papers and there are none available that I can find.....Can anyone say RUN ON SENTENCE? That is what you get with a GED.....

ETL white papers are provided for all compliant Communications Cabling products by the manufacturers, but then again ETL (Electronics Testing Laboratories) is a Not for Profit Testing/Certification Agency and as it has been stated already, THX is a Marketing Body that does some testing to the standards they created.

I am starting to see why the last thread was shut down, we are all reiterating our points over and over again and just waiting for the other side to give up.

I say Fight On, Sir William Wallace would!:D

Okay, now I give up.....how is that for a 180?

I just went to the THX site to see if I could gleam anymore info and found something that was very telling to my thick head:


"Car Audio Certification
If you are a manufacturer of premium automobiles and are interested in THX Certification for your in-car entertainment systems, please contact us (http://thx.com/company/contactUs.html?t=auto) and we will be delighted to discuss the business and technical aspects of becoming a THX partner."

This is under the Certification tab at the bottom of the site, this tab gives you some links to applying for Cinema and Studio certifications, but nothing for Home Cinema.....So when I clicked on Car Audio looking for something about how they certify a product THX I got the above quote. Now the reason I give up is because they state very clearly there on the site "please contact us (http://thx.com/company/contactUs.html?t=auto) and we will be delighted to discuss the business and technical aspects of becoming a THX partner.". Hence a partnership which means a Profitable Partnership for at least one of the parties and the goal would be both.....In my business we have Partnerships with certain manufacturers where they come in a buy the technicians some pizza and put on a powerpoint about this product or that and then you are "Certified" with the catch being that you bring each other more BUSINESS.....So in reality THX Certification for Home Theater is the same thing and is about MARKETING....I don't capitalize that for you all I capitalize it for me, because now I am clear on what that logo on the front of my 805 is all about, as well as the lack of a logo on my JKB Custom Bi-Wired Speaker Cables.....



Thanks for the box!

It just bling for you system like this:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:KwfMZ-RAV0RVZM:http://www.mzee.com/data/img/news/event/liljon1.jpg

Some time you just want a gold grill :) No seriously the Monster THX do look good! As soon as THX figures out what XLR cables meet their high specs I may get some.

A friend of mine once taught me the phrase "the hint of impropriety is sometimes worse than the act itself".

That is what you get with a GED.....

Oversimplification you mean?

Posts 61 & 62 seem to nail it securely. IMFO of course.

Oversimplifcation you mean?No, many grammatical errors on my part is what I was referring to, but another phrase I was once told was Keep it Simple Stupid, so maybe that applies here also.

Just like anything else, buyer beware. A "seal of approval" doesn't necessarily mean a product is better than another "non-approved" product.


The "seal of approval" in any product sometimes means a lot more than a better product.

What about if I tell you here in Mexico most people think Monster THX certified cables are THE ONLY PRODUCT that CAN function with THX certified receivers, amps and some other certified equipment?

Yes, I know it is not Monster or THX fault that masses are uninformed and even stupid, but it certainly talks about their abusive marketing policy....

The "seal of approval" in any product sometimes means a lot more than a better product.

What about if I tell you here in Mexico most people think Monster THX certified cables are THE ONLY PRODUCT that CAN function with THX certified receivers, amps and some other certified equipment?

Yes, I know it is not Monster or THX fault that masses are uninformed and even stupid, but it certainly talks about their abusive marketing policy....

Good Point! Just wait until they get the Cojenes to only honor warranty claims if you are using THX certified components in all the links of your chain! In my business the mfgrs, specify partnerships with one another STRATEGICALLY and then only offer warranties if your system is with one of their partners. That makes sense on a base level, but what is a REAL KICK IN THE PANTS about it is that the products are already STANDARDS COMPLIANT!!!!!

Talk about misinformation gone awry! The Communications Cabling Industry feeds on it....Quick Story about this, I experienced where a Fortune 500 Company Hard Spec'd a product End to End and were told (From the Manufacturers and the Distributor) that the only way they would have a compliant (warranted) system is if they used all of Company "X's" components and all of Company "Y's" Cable. Only to have the customer order the 6000 Patch Cords needed for the project and have them arrive with a Third Parties name on the cable the patch cords were made with. The companies were just lucky that the customer didn't make a bigger deal out of it, but he did and does know he was scammed with the whole Unified System thing!......:rolleyes:

What about if I tell you here in Mexico most people think Monster THX certified cables are THE ONLY PRODUCT that CAN function with THX certified receivers, amps and some other certified equipment?

Yes, I know it is not Monster or THX fault that masses are uninformed and even stupid, but it certainly talks about their abusive marketing policy....

Only in marketing is the term "effective" replaced with "abusive." Selective, aren't we?

BTW - I would tell you that Mr. Lee isn't tapping into that anywhere near as much as he needs to.:D

Just like anything else, buyer beware. A "seal of approval" doesn't necessarily mean a product is better than another "non-approved" product.

Very true. The essential function of any approval is to inform that a product meets a certain level--what that level is may vary from category to category. Never has anyone said (unless attempting to create a strawman) that it means superiority--and if it does, it simply means superiority over lesser items.

Again, let's bring peace to this thread and agree that this certification is only there to provide a level of comfort and some guarantee of performance and build. Shoot, THX Monster cables do not represent the top end for them either, so let's stop attempting to create points to knock down that never existed to begin with.

...agree that this certification is only there to provide a level of comfort and some guarantee of performance and build.


Sorry, but I can't agree. IMHO it's a misleading marketing strategy. If there was a need/benefit to comply to unpublished wire/cable standards, why did only two vendors feel the need to apply and pay to get certified?

Guarantee of build? Perhaps...
Performance... very questionable (with a price/performance comparison).

The only ones "comfortable" are THX and "the only certified cable vendor".

Yes, I know it is not Monster or THX fault that masses are uninformed and even stupid, but it certainly talks about their abusive marketing policy....

Yes they are at fault. Because they have the marketing and want that impression. They also impress this upon sales staffs in stores. It is not right but its the BS they pull.

and if it does, it simply means superiority over lesser items.

.

And how is Home Depot 12/2 any less? We do not have the specs that THX uses so by your own words you and THX want us to think it is superior. It in no way could ever mean superior in the world of cables unless THX has found a way to break the laws of physics.

And how is Home Depot 12/2 any less? We do not have the specs that THX uses so by your own words you and THX want us to think it is superior. It in no way could ever mean superior in the world of cables unless THX has found a way to break the laws of physics.

Yes, because we all know all things are always created equal.:rolleyes:

I love absolutists and their amusing statements.

Performance... very questionable (with a price/performance comparison).

Well we haven't established that it causes a price increase. And all that's happened is people rolling out Home Depot 12/2 as a strawman comparison, which doesn't fly.

So people wonder why I "defend" THX. I really don't per se. But what I can't stand is blatant misinformation caused by a few trolls here that insist on indoctrinating everyone here that these companies are deliberately deceiving consumers or defrauding them. That is the implication, but at the end of the day it's all based on someone's cross to bear over a company's business practices and perceived lack of ethics or performance. Never mind that this is never supported--yet I am to magically trot out the parameters for a THX certification for a company I don't work for. Brilliant.

Yeah, I can see why the previous thread got shut down based on that. Because really, I can't see any other reason.

I'll be marketing a porno line of cables certified by some not terribly skanky porno actress. It's the only line which will work with XXX movies.

Schtiker,
If you could refrain from all of the condescending remarks, someone would listen to you.

There have been many valid observations/opinions proposed in this and "the other" thread. I have seen nothing from "you" that can substantiate any facts to back your statements.

THX is good. Many cables are good. The one "certified" cable vendor does not make non-certified cables any worse.

Please! If you need to respondm please don't come back with the snarky rhetoric. I'd like this thread to remain open. IMO, you are the only one being verbally abusive. Thanks.

Schticker, let's say they're not deliberately defrauding or deceiving people. Might one say that in the absence of tangible specifications, they're simply not informing them?

Yes, because we all know all things are always created equal.:rolleyes:

I love absolutists and their amusing statements.



Well we haven't established that it causes a price increase. And all that's happened is people rolling out Home Depot 12/2 as a strawman comparison, which doesn't fly.

So people wonder why I "defend" THX. I really don't per se. But what I can't stand is blatant misinformation caused by a few trolls here that insist on indoctrinating everyone here that these companies are deliberately deceiving consumers or defrauding them. That is the implication, but at the end of the day it's all based on someone's cross to bear over a company's business practices and perceived lack of ethics or performance. Never mind that this is never supported--yet I am to magically trot out the parameters for a THX certification for a company I don't work for. Brilliant.

Yeah, I can see why the previous thread got shut down based on that. Because really, I can't see any other reason.


Excellent non answers again. I never said I was an absolutists, I said what makes them better. YOU said they were superior over lesser items. Home depot or monoprice or blue jeans all have les expensive cable so what is it that makes the THX better? Still waiting for your answer. Again unless THX has beat the laws of physics that make a cable work then its all BUNK.

You are the only one bearing the THX cross. You say they are better because they are certified so you are the defender.

Car Audio Certification
If you are a manufacturer of premium automobiles and are interested in THX Certification for your in-car entertainment systemsNote this quote above from an earlier post (again, it is from the THX website).......What kind of Automobile? Premium Automobiles.........Hmmm.........I guess the THX committee is now an authority on what automobiles are Premium and what are not! That is interesting to say the least, and a direct point that THX is about IMAGE and MARKETING (not standards) to say the most. Just think about that, you have to be a Mfgr. of Premium cars for you to consider asking us to explain the Program and its Parameters to you. Would it diminish the THX brand if say a Hyundai or Kia had a THX certified Sound System. Look at that I am doing the same thing, who am I to say that a Hyundai or Kia are not a Premium Automobile, damn double standards for posters!

BTW, my father just traded in his Cadillac for a Lincoln SUV and one of the first things he pointed out to me when I rode to the Discount PC Store with him was the THX Certification for the Sound System. I was disappointed though, I expected the Lincoln to fly down the highway like one of the BIKES in Star Wars I flew threw the forest! Oh well, the sound was as good as the Bose system in his Cadillac!

Only in marketing is the term "effective" replaced with "abusive." Selective, aren't we?

Mmmm... Yes. That's Goebbels legacy after all. ;)

Mmmm... Yes. That's Goebbels legacy after all. ;)

Marketing you don't like is abusive lol. Whereas with the ability to remain objective, I look at Monster's tactics and am highly impressed. The fact that the product performs perpetuates the claims they make, which unlike Bose are purely build/performance issues. Monster talks chit and backs it up in other words.

Hate to say it, but everything you buy is a result either direct or indirect of marketing BTW. It's like the air we breathe. The more you insist that isn't true is testament to the most effective campaigns--which are the most transparent and pervasive.

I think my truth is that I only want to pay a premium for things that 'I think are worth a premium'. Now all that really means is that I like what I like and am Dang Thick Headed to be told anything different.

A girl friend once told me, that "Change is Inevitable", we are no longer together!

communists!

communists!

That actually has me Rolling! I don't mean a Doobie, I mean ROLLIN", you have summed this up perfectly.:p

This is the AV version of the Cold War. What an analogy and I mean that with all sincerity.

Nice!!!!!:D

BTW, you do know that there are some who believe Miles Davis was a sympathizer don't you?

Now all that really means is that I like what I like and am Dang Thick Headed to be told anything different.

JBL and Bose thank you.

JBL and Bose thank you.

Your continuation of this interested me enough to read some of your other posts in previous (and a few current) threads and I have to say that you are for the most part very consistent.

For my money I would rather deal with local small privately owned shops, but they are few and far between here in Cincinnati. There is a shop that was good enough to let me audition a Paradigm Sub once, but they wanted a Grand for it and I have to say that it came nowhere near the Build Quality/Performance/Price of the 2 SVS Subs I have now purchased so for my money I am very glad that there are companies out there that are able/willing to sell a first rate product at an affordable price in the AV world (SVS being only one of Many) for a GREAT PRICE/PERFOMRANCE BANG online! I say this because it took me awhile to figure out your signature as an under handed remark to those willing to Research and purchase online. Whilst this is not a personal attack on you based on your Signature or other threads, I had to quote you something from the SVS Setup manual that is very fitting to this Thread as a whole and also ties into your Signature and AV Politics(based on your threads I have read).

"Replete with internal blocking, CNC-cut panels, t-nut fasteners, recessed components., selling factory direct or through select, exclusive regional dealers, means your sub, and not glossy ads, get the priority at SVS."

Emphasis added by me.....

See the similarity in that statement and the topic of this thread....and then the tie into your signature line?;-)

Thanks for the insight!
Joe

Whilst this is not a personal attack on you based on your Signature or other threads, I had to quote you something from the SVS Setup manual that is very fitting to this Thread as a whole and also ties into your Signature and AV Politics(based on your threads I have read).

"Replete with internal blocking, CNC-cut panels, t-nut fasteners, recessed components., selling factory direct or through select, exclusive regional dealers, means your sub, and not glossy ads, get the priority at SVS."

Emphasis added by me.....

See the similarity in that statement and the topic of this thread....and then the tie into your signature line?;-)

Interestingly enough, most better brands tend to forgo "glossy ads" in place of dealer demo facilities and word of mouth.

ID of course plays into the "look we don't advertise so you money goes into the product" line that meshes with Internet Culture thinking incredibly well. In fact, that is a degree of marketing that is as surreptitious and non-descriptive as the best of Monster's lines.

Not saying anything about SVS obviously (good brand). My signature indeed has to do more with untested ID brands and the cult that surrounds them, and the immorality that is using a local dealer for info and audition only to purchase it online. These two topics have been covered ad nauseam (along with this one BTW) and does not need to be rehashed. You brought it up in an effort to ad hominem my position though, so I thought you'd like an explanation.

Interestingly enough, most better brands tend to forgo "glossy ads" in place of dealer demo facilities and word of mouth.

ID of course plays into the "look we don't advertise so you money goes into the product" line that meshes with Internet Culture thinking incredibly well. In fact, that is a degree of marketing that is as surreptitious and non-descriptive as the best of Monster's lines.

Not saying anything about SVS obviously (good brand). My signature indeed has to do more with untested ID brands and the cult that surrounds them, and the immorality that is using a local dealer for info and audition only to purchase it online. These two topics have been covered ad nauseam (along with this one BTW) and does not need to be rehashed. You brought it up in an effort to ad hominem my position though, so I thought you'd like an explanation.

Fair Enough, thanks for explaining and being who you are. It would have only been immoral if my MOTIVE was as you state to 'use' the local dealer, it was not, and as I stated I was Happy to Stumble upon SVS through AVS, it has been great.

I find that for my customers, it is my responsibility to offer them the best price for the service in my industry, that by no means implies Cheapest, because I am not, but it does indicate Price for Performance. That includes informing them of lesser products that are Cheaper and why they are cheaper as well as More expensive Products that are not worth the marketing material the Manufacturer provides. We always end up somewhere in the middle, kinda like SVS, definitely not Cheap, but Definitely not JL Prices either. It is about performance to cost ratio and until THX can provide more than marketing to back up why Speaker cables with their logo are 'BETTER' (not a subjective better, but a fact based better) then I will forgo my monies to more rewarding items, and will continue to direct others I know that way.

Nice to see no Kowtowing from you, you definitely stand your ground, although you do mislead with your posts! One example is above where you questioned my MORALS, nice try.;) Good Luck, and thanks for replying.
Joe

I find that for my customers, it is my responsibility to offer them the best price for the service in my industry, that by no means implies Cheapest, because I am not, but it does indicate Price for Performance. That includes informing them of lesser products that are Cheaper and why they are cheaper as well as More expensive Products that are not worth the marketing material the Manufacturer provides. We always end up somewhere in the middle, kinda like SVS, definitely not Cheap, but Definitely not JL Prices either.

Ironically we think the same in this regard.

It is about performance to cost ratio and until THX can provide more than marketing to back up why Speaker cables with their logo are 'BETTER' (not a subjective better, but a fact based better) then I will forgo my monies to more rewarding items, and will continue to direct others I know that way.

TBH I think any cable company that speaks in terms like this is walking into a punch, because of the sheer degree of difficulty entailed to establish "superiority." I heavily misspoke if I outwardly stated that THX asserts superiority--although superiority over crap is easy. All they do is establish via certification that their endorsed product ISN'T crap.

Nice to see no Kowtowing from you, you definitely stand your ground, although you do mislead with your posts! One example is above where you questioned my MORALS, nice try.;) Good Luck, and thanks for replying.
Joe

I wasn't questioning you at all. The tone may have been different had you purchased the Paradigm sub online, which you did not.:)

I heavily misspoke if I outwardly stated that THX asserts superiority--

Now that's one thing we can all agree on. ;)

... although superiority over crap is easy. All they do is establish via certification that their endorsed product ISN'T crap.

Now, all that needs to be done is ascertain why all other speaker wire/audio cables are "crap" and the THX/Mon$ter products are worth the $$.

I wasn't questioning you at all. The tone may have been different had you purchased the Paradigm sub online, which you did not.:)

The Paradigm didn't suffice for my Room. The PB12Plus/2 does. I did actually Drive to SVS outside of Akron OH to pick it up so that is kind of like buying from a 'stereo shop' I guess. I am definitely willing to go the extra Mile and Dollar when it counts!:D

Now, all that needs to be done is ascertain why all other speaker wire/audio cables are "crap" and the THX/Mon$ter products are worth the $$.
Again, what makes you think THX certification adds ANYTHING to the price of a set of Monster cables. Do you think they'd be cheaper if they weren't "THX Certifiied"? And, again, let's not be naive.

[QUOTE=schticker;12694973] All they do is establish via certification that their endorsed product ISN'T crap.

QUOTE]


No they do not even do that. As long as we do not know what the certification does we have no idea if it is valid.

Now, all that needs to be done is ascertain why all other speaker wire/audio cables are "crap" and the THX/Mon$ter products are worth the $$.

You know, I think you may have struck upon my source of disagreement. It's a little extreme to say "all other" cables are crap. I don't think that's the implication here. THX simply says "ours are built and perform to X standard"--without making any other statements about anyone else other than to state the obvious--which is that some cables don't perform and/or aren't built all that great.

Again, what makes you think THX certification adds ANYTHING to the price of a set of Monster cables. Do you think they'd be cheaper if they weren't "THX Certifiied"? And, again, let's not be naive.

Especially when they have what, two or three levels more expensive than that?

What do you all think about some of their cables being ISF certified? Do folks here think they're on the take also?

All they do is establish via certification that their endorsed product ISN'T crap.

No they do not even do that. As long as we do not know what the certification does we have no idea if it is valid.

Not that it's up to AVS to determine that, but I digress...

Again, what makes you think THX certification adds ANYTHING to the price of a set of Monster cables. Do you think they'd be cheaper if they weren't "THX Certifiied"? And, again, let's not be naive.

Post #61 and #62 as well as the Mon$ter reputation. Are you that naive that you don't think Mon$ter defers licencing fees to the consumer... nor takes advantage of justifying that markup (in some fashion) by proudly displaying the THX logo?

C'mon... it's not a "standards" organization(s). It's a 'for profit' corporation. When it comes to cables/wire, Mon$ter and THX have a very profitable relationship when it comes to marketing. All at the expense of the uninformed..... or naive.

You know, I think you may have struck upon my source of disagreement. It's a little extreme to say "all other" cables are crap. I don't think that's the implication here. THX simply says "ours are built and perform to X standard"--without making any other statements about anyone else other than to state the obvious--which is that some cables don't perform and/or aren't built all that great.

Yes... it is the source of disagreement. Your stance has been that THX certified cables are "justified". They may be... but!

Why put only Mon$ter in the niche? This goes back to other posts. If it's that important to be certified, why do no other manufacturers submit products. IMO, because probably 90% can meet or exceed those "standards" (established/set/determined by THX), so why pay for cert and licence fees. Reputation alone works well enough.

Apparently, Mon$ter is the only one to feel it's necessary. Why? Marketing to increase sales.

It's a win/win for both THX and Mon$ter.

All I ask is to see the spec's...

Are you that naive that you don't think Mon$ter defers licencing fees to the consumer...
Not as any significant contibution to the retail price of the product, no.


................nor takes advantage of justifying that markup (in some fashion) by proudly displaying the THX logo?
As I just stated, I don't think that the cost of THX certification contributes significantly to the price of the product. But of course, I've ALWAYS said in the last thread and in this thread that they very most likely DO take advantage of that certification. Otherwise, why would they display the logo in the first place?


C'mon... it's not a "standards" organization(s). It's a 'for profit' corporation. When it comes to cables/wire, Mon$ter and THX have a very profitable relationship when it comes to marketing. All at the expense of the uninformed..... or naive.
So?



I'll say it again:

COMMUNISTS!!!!

#1 You and I don't really know the costs for cert and licence and what's applied to the retail price(s), the cost increase could be significant on a per unit basis. It's quite easy for anyone to figure out that "it ain't free".

#2 see #1 Also, I don't see other cable/wire vendors jumping on the THX bandwagon.

#3 You mean Capitalists.

You and I don't really know the costs for cert and licence and what's applied to the retail price(s), the cost increase could be significant on a per unit basis. It's quite easy for anyone to figure out that "it ain't free".
OK, let's say "it ain't free". So? That you think it DOES contribute to the retail price of the product should make such labelling all the more palatable for you.


Also, I don't see other cable/wire vendors jumping on the THX bandwagon.
So?


You mean Capitalists.
No, I don't mean capitalists. Perhaps it's unclear to you who that humorous jeer is directed toward.

No, I don't mean capitalists. Perhaps it's unclear to you who that humorous jeer is directed toward.

Are you saying that you have uncovered the secret 'Truth' that Monster Cable's are manufactured in Communist China and that Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez are on the steering Committee of THX? Sounds like that is what you are saying Miles. I for one think you could be right! Where did you find that proof at, it could mean alot as to why the 'Marketing' has been so much like the increase in OIL prices, (read MISLEADING)! Is OPEC in charge of the pricing? I would really like to know if you have proof for these statements, you can PM me if you don't want to publicly reveal your sources!

Thanks,
Joe

Are you saying that you have uncovered the secret 'Truth' that Monster Cable's are manufactured in Communist China and that Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez are on the steering Committee of THX? Sounds like that is what you are saying Miles. I for one think you could be right! Where did you find that proof at, it could mean alot as to why the 'Marketing' has been so much like the increase in OIL prices, (read MISLEADING)! Is OPEC in charge of the pricing? I would really like to know if you have proof for these statements, you can PM me if you don't want to publicly reveal your sources!

Bingo! Of course that's what I'm saying!

I THOUGHT that maybe I had been too subtle.

Why of course that's what I'm saying! Jeez, don't you know anything?!?!?!? :rolleyes:

I thought maybe I had been too subtle.

I have mentioned it twice in this thread already, but here goes again, " I can be thick headed", meaning you have to really SPELL things out for me. I am glad to read that you have come around to the 'Truth' and are willing to go to bat for the Common Man. We need to end this corruption in the AV Marketing business that is being perpetuated by THX and Monster. I am on your team, just let me know what I can do to contribute, I think that Schticker chap will be more than willing to join the fight, and yes he is a fighter!

Ready and Waiting!

Ready and Waiting!
Ooops, sorry, I edited my post while you were posting. I had to edit it a bit to make absolutely certain that everyone (especially you and your thick head) understood exactly what I was saying.

I would really like to know if you have proof for these statements................
No. It's just my opinion.

And don't put words in my mouth, btw.

Ooops, sorry, I edited my post while you were posting. I had to edit it a bit to make absolutely certain that everyone (especially you and your thick head) understood exactly what I was saying.

Thanks Captain for understanding how to get through to me. You know it's probably not all bad that my head is this Thick, if it wasn't I might have bought into that BS about Monster being the Ultra product available for Home AV Applications! I mean don't get me wrong I am not implying that those who do believe that to be the case are Thin Headed, just Naive, Ill-informed by Trusted Sources, I guess Ignorant (from the definition meaning Unknowing of the Truth) really. I think this is a great topic to inform and correct the lack of critical thinking by Home AV enthusiasts! Thanks for giving me a part in this battle!:D

OK, That was the last Salvo. I will not reply again, although it has been fun. For the record I apologize for the words in your mouth direction! All in good fun.

Thanks for giving me a part in this battle!
BTW, have you read Mein Kable?

So we all agree that THX certified speaker wire means absolutely nil other than adding to the cost...in whatever amount that may be...to the wire that was 'certified'???

So we all agree that THX certified speaker wire means absolutely nill other than adding to the cost...in whatever amount that may be...to the wire that was 'certified'???
Did you mean 'nill', 'nil', or 'nihil'? :confused:

nil...nadda...zip...zilch...NIL...

Original post extra 'l' removed...

nil...nadda...zip...zilch...NIL...

Original post extra 'l' removed...
OK, thanks. Just wanted to clarify what you were asking, exactly. It really confused me (I guess you could tell that by the smiley I used, huh?)

So we all agree that THX certified speaker wire means absolutely nil other than adding to the cost...in whatever amount that may be...to the wire that was 'certified'???

If that's the conclusion you all came to, I would wonder how you manage to open the garage AND start the car on the very same morning.:rolleyes:

If that's the conclusion you all came to, I would wonder how you manage to open the garage AND start the car on the very same morning.:rolleyes:

Get real...:rolleyes:

I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...:rolleyes:

You just go ahead and keep trying to get others to justify your 'THX' certified products to yourself...:p The rest of us know better...;)

I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...
Hell, yeah. I'm glad someone besides me understands it.


............keep trying to get others to justify your 'THX' certified products to yourself...
Yeah, keep that to myself, you.

If that's the conclusion you all came to, I would wonder how you manage to open the garage AND start the car on the very same morning.:rolleyes:

Is there any possibility that you could be capable of repsonding to a post without (IMO) attacking people? :rolleyes:

Schticker, what makes you assume that THX products do not cost more because of THX certification ? I would assume that most companies would have their products certified if there were no cost penalties involved.

--Regards,

Here's a thought - monster sells more cables now that they are THX certified. thus increasing their total profits, and financing the certification process.

The increase in sales outweighs the initial cost, thus allowing Monster to sell the cables at an unchanged price - that's marketing for you.

Just an idea, I don't know this for sure, and I'm not defending either side of this debate here.

Schticker, what makes you assume that THX products do not cost more because of THX certification ? I would assume that most companies would have their products certified if there were no cost penalties involved.
I'm not sure if that was Schticker's assertion, but I certainly said that I didn't think that THX certification affected the retail price of Monster cables. Not directly, anyway. Does Monster, perhaps, ask more for their cables because they ARE labelled as such? Quite possibly, and in fact, I would almost assume most definitely so. Otherwise, why would a company go to such effort to market their products as such in the first place? But whether it does or not is irrelevant. As I said, if it DOES actually add to the price, that would make such labelling more palatable, no?

As to why other companies do not also have their products "THX certified" has been hinted at in some earlier posts and links in this thread. Perhaps it IS a marketing "scam" (I use that term VERY loosly) between Monster and THX. Perhaps THX sets whatever price they prefer for the certification on a case to case basis. You can definitely criticize it for being an unregulated "certification". But what they're doing is not illegal in this country. In fact, we've all seen much worse examples of unscrupulous and even false advertising. There is nothing patently false in Monster's claims that their cables are "THX certified". They are. WHATEVER, that means.

If you don't want to buy Monster cables, don't buy them. Simple. No one is twisting any arms. But if you want to dedicate time to being the "cable marketing and advertising ombudsman" (note that I didn't simply say "cable ombudsman", as no one is really questioning the quality of Monster's cables) and crusade against what you perceive to be Monster's unfair (which they're not) marketing and advertising practices, I say GET A GRIP and GET A LIFE. There are MUCH more worthwhile causes to dedicate one's time and effort to. Children are starving in America.

There are watchdog organizations and even (cough, cough) our government to complain to if you think Monster's advertising practices are so unscrupulous (which they're, of course, not). But last time I checked, in this country anyway, a company, no matter what they're selling, can ask any price they want to ask for their product and they can advertise said product however they choose as long as it's not considered to be false advertising (and there is a LOT of leeway, here; a whole lot). As I said, we've all seen egregious (and downright dangerous) examples of false advertising. This isn't one of them. In this case, it's not even "fuzzy" or "grey". Monster cables ARE "THX certified", even if ALL that means is that they are labelled as such.

This thread (and the other) started out as the "THX Speaker Wire Thread" and some legitimate questions were asked regarding what THX certification means in the first place, does it somehow mean one cable is better than another (which we almost all agree that it does not, although we don't really know this for certain), and why does it seem that Monster's cables are the only ones that ARE certified. But it quickly, as usual, turned into not only a criticism of Monster cable's advertising, marketing, and pricing practices, but a criticism of its product, in general. They make a good product. Is it worth what they ask for it? That's up to the consumer to decide. Almost every time I've seen Monster cables being sold, I've seen a competitor's product being sold in the same store for a lesser price. And if it's NOT in the same store, it's usually a few klicks or clicks away.

But it quickly, as usual, turned into not only a criticism of Monster cable's advertising, marketing, and pricing practices, but a criticism of its product, in general. They make a good product. Is it worth what they ask for it? That's up to the consumer to decide. Almost every time I've seen Monster cables being sold, I've seen a competitor's product being sold in the same store for a lesser price. And if it's NOT in the same store, it's usually a few klicks or clicks away.

I agree that this thread should not turned in to Mon$ter cable sucks thread. They make cables no better or worse than lesser priced cables. But I digress...

Having the "consumer" decide is the crux of the discussion(s). Most times, the average consumer doesn't know (not informed) any better. When they go to puchase new A/V gear (especially in a B&M store), they are quickly informed that they will need wire/cables. And where are they directed? To the Mon$ter cables. That's bad enough when there may be other choices of lesser price that will work just as well.

Then, they are promptly redirected to the wire/cables that "THX" certified because they are "better". Even a novice that's done a little homework has heard the name of Mon$ter. They assume that's the "best". Add to that the "THX" moniker that consumer blindly spends (IMO) an unecessary amount of $$ for a label. Slick marketing...

If there were a 1/2 dozen other "THX certified" cable/wire manufacturers listed, this could be a little more palatable.

IMO, the THX/Mon$ter cable/wire certification passed the "duck test". ;)

Having the "consumer" decide is the crux of the discussion(s).
And it's, THANKFULLY, the crux of capitalism, too.


Most times, the average consumer doesn't know (not informed) any better.
As is the case with ANY product.


Slick marketing.........
Exactly. And what's wrong with that? That's one of the "inconveniences" of capitalism and that sort of marketing is certainly just as prevalent with other products, perhaps even more so, that represent a much more costly, important, necessary, and essential choice than audio cables.


If there were a 1/2 dozen other "THX certified" cable/wire manufacturers listed, this could be a little more palatable.
At least there are much more than a 1/2 dozen choices, "THX certified" or not. Would you rather have one single governement-supplied cable that you had no choice but to use, regardless of its quality (which would almost certainly be sub-par)?

COMMUNIST! :D

Get real...:rolleyes:

I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...:rolleyes:

Whatever makes you feel good about your .14/ft garbage.

You just go ahead and keep trying to get others to justify your 'THX' certified products to yourself...:p The rest of us know better...;)

Oh I see. THX is wholly owned and operated by me. The only thing people on this thread "know" about this topic is what other brainwashed folks taught them. Nothing more.

Learn to master debate.;)

Learn to master debate.;)

Learn how to interpret written words...When I typedto justify your 'THX' certified productsclearly means the THX certified products you own as nobody here could possibly mistake that THX iswholly owned and operated by you...:rolleyes:

I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...Of course you can. And so can Monster. So what? What sort of response is that?

Do you just want to name-call with schticker or do you want to intelligently discuss the issue(s) at hand. Do you not even read any of the other responses in the thread except his? If you can actually wrap your head around it, I'd be interested in your intelligent response to what I've been posting. I suspect that, based upon some of my past experience with you, that this might be difficult.

Whatever makes you feel good about your .14/ft garbage.


Mmmm... Now talking about mastering debates. Interesting argument. :rolleyes:

Of course you can. And so can Monster. So what? What sort of response is that?

Do you just want to name-call with schticker or do you want to intelligently discuss the issue(s) at hand. Do you not even read any of the other responses in the thread except his? If you can actually wrap your head around it, I'd be interested in your intelligent response to what I've been posting. I suspect that, based upon some of my past experience with you, that this might be difficult.

What??? Are you off your meds or something??? How many times do you need to reply to my comment...and flip flopping your responses at that???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010
I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...

Originally Posted by sivadselim: Hell, yeah. I'm glad someone besides me understands it.

Another clue you are off your meds:Do you just want to name-call with schticker Where/when did I call schticker any names???

My advice to you is to put down the pipe and walk away from it...:rolleyes:

What??? Are you off your meds or something??? How many times do you need to reply to my comment...and flip flopping your responses at that???
What flip-flopped, exactly? My initial response went right over your head, actually.

I'd still like you to respond to me (or anyone else for that matter) intelligently and legitimately instead of VERY feebly and simply saying:

Get real...:rolleyes:

I can take some .14/ft zip cord off Lowes shelf and pay THX enough to "certify" it...and charge $2.50/ft just because it has "THX" on it...:rolleyes:

You just go ahead and keep trying to get others to justify your 'THX' certified products to yourself...:p The rest of us know better...;)

I'll help you out, here. The only point that response might make is that in a capitalist society, you're free to market and label a product any way you prefer, exactly as Monster has done. So, your argument (if you want to call it that) really only supports what you perceive Monster to be doing.

Good luck marketing that cable. You've got Monster to compete with, you know. ;)

(I guess saying "Are you off your meds or something???" isn't something you would consider name-calling either, eh?)

And it's, THANKFULLY, the crux of capitalism, too.
Thankfully? I disagree. It's sad.


As is the case with ANY product.
I don't agree.

Exactly. And what's wrong with that? That's one of the "inconveniences" of capitalism and that sort of marketing is certainly just as prevalent with other products, perhaps even more so, that represent a much more costly, important, necessary, and essential choice than audio cables.
An "inconvenience" doesn't justify misleading. Does it happen with other marketing ads/products? Yes... does't make it "right" and should not be accepted by the masses.

At least there are much more than a 1/2 dozen choices, "THX certified" or not.
As I tried to state earlier, to the "new" consumer (maybe your mom and dad, sister, etc.), they could be easily mislead to go to an unnecessary expenditure.

Would you rather have one single governement-supplied cable that you had no choice but to use, regardless of its quality (which would almost certainly be sub-par)?

COMMUNIST! :D

The only reply to this statement is... try to be mature.

To get this thread back on topic.....

Is THX certification necessary for speaker wire and cables necessary? Is so... why?

And to 'play fair', let's not use the "M" name. Let's just say there is only one major player. "CABLE M"

And to 'play fair', let's not use the "M" name. Let's just say there is only one major player. "CABLE M"

Unfortunately nobody here has any rational, non-emotional statements to make without re-hashing the Monster issue.

And let's not forget that this is a two-way street. The call for me to justify THX's point of view is rather stupid. Nobody has attempted to prove that:

A: THX approval equals increased cost
B: Monster doesn't deserve the approval
C: The certification means nothing other than marketing.

Let's step to it, shall we?

BTW Splicer - I do not defend something simply because I own it. For the record, I own exactly ONE THX component cable that I got for free. Of course that isn't the point but since you have nothing, I assume ad-hominem is the natural retreating point.

Unfortunately nobody here has any rational, non-emotional statements to make without re-hashing the Monster issue.

And let's not forget that this is a two-way street. The call for me to justify THX's point of view is rather stupid. Nobody has attempted to prove that:

A: THX approval equals increased cost
B: Monster doesn't deserve the approval
C: The certification means nothing other than marketing.

Let's step to it, shall we?

BTW Splicer - I do not defend something simply because I own it. For the record, I own exactly ONE THX component cable that I got for free. Of course that isn't the point but since you have nothing, I assume ad-hominem is the natural retreating point.

Well lets really step to it, shall we???

Nobody HAS NOT proved that:

A: THX approval does not equal increased cost
B: Cable 'M' does deserve the approval over any other cable
C: The certification means something other than marketing.

Where-as many valid and factual posts, both in this thread and others, HAVE proved (just not to you) A,B & C...

BTW...Funny how I knew by your irrational defense that you own (even if only one) product that is THX certified...;)

A: The cost of THX approval, and no one knows how that's calculated, has to be absorbed somewhere. No one knows where that somewhere is. Of course, it may be one of those cross promotional kind of things where Monster pays nothing whatsoever but because of their enormous market penetration are able to splash the THX logo everywhere and THX is willing to pay for that by letting them use the logo. No way of telling without a mole in one of the organizations.
B: Anyone who passes the unknown qualifications and pays the unknown costs gets the approval. Even Monster.
C: We'll never know what other than marketing it means.

What??? No cool sexy picture to go along with your post Chu???;)

I think I did in the last thread that was shut down. Not easy to find a THX babe.

Well lets really step to it, shall we???

Nobody HAS NOT proved that:

A: THX approval does not equal increased cost
B: Cable 'M' does deserve the approval over any other cable
C: The certification means something other than marketing.

Where-as many valid and factual posts, both in this thread and others, HAVE proved (just not to you) A,B & C...

I would like to see a link to this "proof"--not just mass bandwagon hysteria from cable haters. Good luck with that. I'll give you a full day because you'll need the time.

Not my job to disprove a negative. Obviously, the technical standards have been met. I seriously doubt that THX would risk its reputation by certifying a less-than-deserving product. You may think so, but that's hardly a surprising position from you based on your other posts.

BTW...Funny how I knew by your irrational defense that you own (even if only one) product that is THX certified...;)

Only a child would think everyone thinks like a child. That's the nature of immaturity.

That cable is sitting in a box someplace with umpteen others--and it's the only one certified ;).

Oh BTW - Pretty much only siva, myself, and a couple others have attempted to maintain some objectivity in this matter. The rest of you feel that debate is only about your opinion.

Whatever makes you feel good about your .14/ft garbage.

What makes you assume that .14/ft cable is garbage ? Can you prove that .14/ft cable is garbage ?

--Regards,

It has been stated where I stand. This is not an argument either way. A funny thing happened the other day on my way to the.......

I just did some more research on THX.com and the link below is to a page that gives background and description all aspects of THX certification except for 'cables', speaker or otherwise......interesting to say the least.

http://thx.com/company/index.html

Toodles

Pretty much only siva, myself, and a couple others have attempted to maintain some objectivity in this matter. The rest of you feel that debate is only about your opinion.

Objectivity is in the mind of the beholder. Neither side of the discussion has shown any facts/proof to substantiate.

The only facts are:
1) Primarily, only "one" manufacturer has 'earned' ~98% THX certification for wire/cables.
2) No one knows what the certification specs/criteria may be.
3) No one knows the costs involved to attain certfication.
4) No one knows the costs involed for licencing.

That's about as objective as one can get no matter which side of fence one sits on.

There's a difference between being subjective, objective, opinionated or argumentative.

Objectivity is in the mind of the beholder. Neither side of the discussion has shown any facts/proof to substantiate.

The only facts are:
1) Primarily, only "one" manufacturer has 'earned' ~98% THX certification for wire/cables.
2) No one knows what the certification specs/criteria may be.
3) No one knows the costs involved to attain certfication.
4) No one knows the costs involed for licencing.

That's about as objective as one can get no matter which side of fence one sits on.

There's a difference between being subjective, objective, opinionated or argumentative.

Agreed. It's a shame however that the subject denigrated to:

1. If Schticker can't prove THX's reason for existence goes beyond marketing then THX is a scam;
2. Monster's affiliation proves it's a scam;
3. No proof to the contrary is required, regardless of the influence, respect, and recognition THX has in the marketplace.

And based on the facts as stated, I don't think anything negative can be fairly construed. Of course fairness is in the eye of the beholder as well.;)

.................and should not be accepted by the masses.
PINKO!

Is THX certification necessary for speaker wire and cables necessary?
Of course not. End of thread.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very mush.

And based on the facts as stated, I don't think anything negative can be fairly construed.

Nor anything positive.

sivadselim:
No need for the name calling. Childish and un-American IMO. If you have nothing constructive. Take it to PM's if you have something to say to me personally.

Nobody HAS NOT proved that:

A: THX approval does not equal increased cost
B: Cable 'M' does deserve the approval over any other cable
C: The certification means something other than marketing.

Where-as many valid and factual posts, both in this thread and others, HAVE proved (just not to you) A,B & C...
AND "Nobody HAS proved that":

A: THX approval does not equal increased cost
B: Cable 'M' does deserve the approval over any other cable
C: The certification means something other than marketing.


A. We don't know what THX approval costs and whether it contributes anything at all to the retail price of a THX certified product such as M. I don't think it does. M would ask the same price for their cable, regardless. What do you think a set of M costs, anyway? Fractions, and I mean fractions, of the retail cost. 1/10th at most; probably even less than that.

B. Of course they do. Whatever the hell it means. Maybe it just means someone smiled at someone the right way. Regardless, the certification IS legitimate.

C. Maybe it IS only a marketing ploy. So what?


I would suggest you read the last couple of pages of the thread.

sivadselim:
No need for the name calling. Childish and un-American IMO. If you have nothing constructive. Take it to PM's if you have something to say to me personally.
Give me a break. In that one single word I can sarcastically, humorously, succinctly, and effectively sum up my point of view on this subject. If you fail to understand, I'm terribly sorry. Should have continued to include a smiley, I suppose.

I consider YOUR viewpoint to be un-American. Maybe you should read up on some economic theory, you commie. :D

I just did some more research on THX.com and the link below is to a page that gives background and description all aspects of THX certification except for 'cables', speaker or otherwise......interesting to say the least.

http://thx.com/company/index.html

Toodles
And why are you wasting your time, might I ask? I thought you knew where you stood. No?

It's irrelevant to the direction this thread has gone. Even if you showed someone exactly what the certification means, they would not be satisified that M was not doing anything unscrupulous and taking advantage of consumers by glaringly labelling their product as such.

Does anyone here think that M's sales would go down if the requirements for THX certification of their cables were known? I would posit that their sales would most likely go up. Does anyone think that if the requirements for THX certification were know that the marketing strategies that M employs would change one iota? If anything they'd market them as such perhaps even MORE agressively. You'd all like that wouldn't you?

Go outside and play with the dog or something.

I consider YOUR viewpoint to be un-American. Maybe you should read up on some economic theory, you commie. :D

I ask you to please stop. Please refer your barbs to PM's and don't pollute the thread with nonsense.

I ask you to please stop. Please refer your barbs to PM's and don't pollute the thread with nonsense.
It's not nonsense. It cuts right to the chase. Why does it offend you so much? Seems to be the ONLY thing in my posts that makes any impression whatsoever.

It's doesn't cut to the chase. Thus the discussion. There are no "conclusive" answers. We are entitled to our opinions and are supposed to be able to express those opinions without name calling.

All I see from your posts are statements that are antagonistic and condescending.
Please reply via PM's if you feel to respond with "off topic" comments. Thanks.

We are entitled to our opinions and are supposed to be able to express those opinions without name calling.
Fair enough. I'll quit calling you a Communist. But my posts do not represent my opinion at all. They simply represent the way it is. Sorry, that the truth bothers you so much. Certain inevitable characteristics of capitalism really bother me, too. The way that Monster markets and sells its products is not at all one of those characteristics, though. There are much more worrisome imnplications of a capitalist economic system than that. Much more.


All I see from your posts are statements that are antagonistic and condescending.
You must not read my posts. Not with any attitude except an argumentative one. It is quite possible that I spent more time composing intelligent responses in this thread than you have. I resort to such very openly antagonistic statements when it's clear that that is the only way to really get someone's attention. And also to inject a bit of humorous sarcasm (sorry you missed that). I guess I could have been much more subtle, huh?

I'm still waiting for an intelligent response to what I posted in Post#142, but just like most of my other posts, that post seems to have gone unnoticed.


And remember, people fought and died so that Monster cable could sell its cables with that THX certification label. ;)

And why are you wasting your time, might I ask? I thought you knew where you stood. No?

It's irrelevant to the direction this thread has gone. Even if you showed someone exactly what the certification means, they would not be satisfied that M was not doing anything unscrupulous and taking advantage of consumers by glaringly labeling their product as such.

Does anyone here think that M's sales would go down if the requirements for THX certification of their cables were known? I would posit that their sales would most likely go up. Does anyone think that if the requirements for THX certification were know that the marketing strategies that M employs would change one iota? If anything they'd market them as such perhaps even MORE aggressively. You'd all like that wouldn't you?

Go outside and play with the dog or something.

I wasn't referring to this M BS anywhere in that post! I was referring to the fact that the THX site says nothing about cables PERIOD as far as I can find. So maybe this is a relatively new venue for THX, nothing regarding the M.

Responding with 'direction' to me of a personal nature isn't very polite....unless of course it is to be of use.

BTW, A friend once told me:
See Dick Be Arrogant
See Dick Be a Jerk
See Dick Be Alone.

Then he told me:
Don't be a Dick.

Now you told me that Miles is not your name, so what is it? I corrected your spelling mistakes, is that intelligent enough? I am removing this subscription.....so I won't be a Dick!
Joe

Does anyone here think that M's sales would go down if the requirements for THX certification of their cables were known?

I don't actually think that most consumers care.

--Regards,

I wasn't referring to this M BS anywhere in that post! I was referring to the fact that the THX site says nothing about cables PERIOD as far as I can find. So maybe this is a relatively new venue for THX, nothing regarding the M.

Responding with 'direction' to me of a personal nature isn't very polite....unless of course it is to be of use.

BTW, A friend once told me:
See Dick Be Arrogant
See Dick Be a Jerk
See Dick Be Alone.

Then he told me:
Don't be a Dick.

Now you told me that Miles is not your name, so what is it? I corrected your spelling mistakes, is that intelligent enough?
Joe
I thought you were my frin, jkreidler.

I still would like someone to respond to this:

"Does anyone here think that M's sales would go down if the requirements for THX certification of their cables were known? I would posit that their sales would most likely go up. Does anyone think that if the requirements for THX certification were know that the marketing strategies that M employs would change one iota? If anything they'd market them as such perhaps even MORE aggressively. You'd all like that wouldn't you?"

If the sales guy at CC or BB could tell the unwitting consumer exactly WHY they should buy the THX certified and more expensive M cables, what do you think the unwitting consumer would do differently? He'd buy into it lock, stock, and barrel. You think Monster's sales piss you of now, you'd really be pissed if people REALLY and TRULY thought there was a good reason to buy them.

I don't actually think that most consumers care.
I certainly don't.

I will excercise my Americanism and examine both points of view, no matter where it takes me.

http://www.sexyinblack.com/shop/media/USA_Flag_Micro_Bikini.JPG

How noble.

--Regards,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/1/newsid_2781000/2781419.stm

Why was this thread completely deleted and not just closed?

There were some good opinions that could be benficial.

Why not just edit out the posts that may not be deemed appropriate and restore the rest in a "closed" status with a "message" from the moderator?:confused:

To attempt an answer to your original question:

Because this topic elicits OPINIONS, mine yours and others. When myself, you, or others have issues with differing opinions it gets to an elementary level of individual attacks, and innuendo, of which I am a major contributor, and some intelligent debate also, of which I might or might not be a contributor of....Despite the intelligence and benefit of some of this debate the Moderator's deem the thread as a whole divisive and not productive. This would be my answer to your question......

Hope it helps,
"Mr. Obvious":)

Why that wasn't much of a bikini at all, was it, sivadeselim?

Just an FYI. And that is ALL it is. I think we were ALL wondering why we had never seen any other cable products that are THX™ certified. But that's all you'll find. Only two companies' cables are THX™ certified.

http://secure.libertycable.com/ecomm/catalog/cat_page.php?group=360

http://secure.libertycable.com/ecomm/catalog/cat_page.php?group=359

http://secure.libertycable.com/ecomm/catalog/cat_page.php?group=487

I think we were ALL wondering why we had never seen any other cable products that are THX™ certified. But that's all you'll find. Only two companies' cables are THX™ certified.

And that's old news... we discussed that in the "old" thread and I believe in this thread also. And still... we all "wonder" why?

http://www.thx.com/products/home/cables.html

So, just curious, what would make you happy, Ratman (and others), regarding what we're discussiing? I mean what is it that irks you so about Monster's (or anyone else's) THX™ certification? Is it that they use it as a marketing tool? Is it that the actual specifications necessary for THX™ certification are not revealed? Is it simply that you think the retail price for their product is unreasonable? What changes would you wish to see?

That you are concerned about unknowledgeable consumers, although admirable, is not really grounded in any sort of facts. You simply think their products are too expensive, correct? I mean do you really think that the consumer is being duped by the THX™ labelling, meaning are they buying something with some sort of expected performance that they are then not getting from the product? If that were the case, and some REAL deception was occurring, I could understand everyone's anger. No one's house has burned down.

Do you really think that Monster wouldn't sell as many products if their THX™ certified marketing campaign were completely transparent, meaning all the purported benefits of THX™ certification were revealed clearly on a poster-board at CC, BB, etc.. My "opinion" is that that could only serve to bolster their credibility and lead to increased sales. What do you think? And it's my "opinion" that if they did something like that that their prices might actually increase. What do you think?


Monster, just like any other company, can sell any product they choose, at any price they choose, using any marketing means they desire, provided they are not breaking any laws. And I'm not saying this form my soapbox. This is not my "opinion". It is a plain and simple fact whether we like it or not. If they're breaking any laws, then they should be punished accordingly (which would be a slap on the wrist and a fine).

Trust me, I'm not some crazed anarcho-capitalist. I just understand the reality of the "system" within which we all live.

Trust me, I'm not some crazed anarcho-capitalist. I just understand the reality of the "system" within which we all live.

I trust that you are not an anarcho-capitalist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella15.html) and agree that the system allows this marketing.....BTW, how did you get the little TM to follow your THX?

So, just curious, what would make you happy, Ratman (and others), regarding what we're discussiing?
Just a discussion...

I mean what is it that irks you so about Monster's (or anyone else's) THX™ certification? Is it that they use it as a marketing tool?
That's one observation. That's yet to be determined.

Is it that the actual specifications necessary for THX™ certification are not revealed?
absolutely... that point has been made many times.

Is it simply that you think the retail price for their product is unreasonable?
It could be... we have nothing technical to compare other than a "label".

What changes would you wish to see?
Honesty.

That you are concerned about unknowledgeable consumers, although admirable, is not really grounded in any sort of facts.
There no published "facts".

You simply think their products are too expensive, correct?
Incorrect. Just want to know "why" we are purchase brand M cable over many other non-certified cables that meet or exceed the THX standards.

I mean do you really think that the consumer is being duped by the THX™ labelling, meaning are they buying something with some sort of expected performance that they are then not getting from the product?
That's a possibility.

If that were the case, and some REAL deception was occurring, I could understand everyone's anger. No one's house has burned down.
No one's "angry"... just looking for technical info and justification(s). No one's house has probably burned down with any non-THX certified speaker or audio interconnect.

Do you really think that Monster wouldn't sell as many products if their THX™ certified marketing campaign were completely transparent, meaning all the purported benefits of THX™ certification were revealed clearly on a poster-board at CC, BB, etc..
I don't know nor care really. Show me what I'm buying. That's all.

My "opinion" is that that could only serve to bolster their credibility and lead to increased sales. What do you think? And it's my "opinion" that if they did something like that that their prices might actually increase. What do you think?
Monster has credibility and a reputation that preceeds them. Good ot bad as it is...


Monster, just like any other company, can sell any product they choose, at any price they choose, using any marketing means they desire, provided they are not breaking any laws. And I'm not saying this form my soapbox. This is not my "opinion". It is a plain and simple fact whether we like it or not. If they're breaking any laws, then they should be punished accordingly (which would be a slap on the wrist and a fine). No one even brought up that anyone was breaking a "law".

Trust me, I'm not some crazed anarcho-capitalist. I just understand the reality of the "system" within which we all live.Super! It doesn't mean we all have to agree with you or anyone else. We all understand the reality of the system and not sit back and blindly agree/digest with what is "fed" to us. That's why we have voting machines! ;)

.....BTW, how did you get the little TM to follow your THX?
ALT 0,1,5,3

Honesty.
Please, show me the dishonesty. Monster's cables are THX™ certified.


Just want to know "why" we are purchase brand M cable over many other non-certified cables that meet or exceed the THX standards.
Correct this. It's unclear what you're saying here. You admit yourself that you don't know what the requirements for THX™ certification are. How do YOU know that other cables meet or exceed the standards? Is that your opinion?


That's a possibility.
And how is it a possibility? Is that your opinion, too? Please present a scenario in which that is a possibility. Do you believe "cable is cable" or not?


... just looking for technical info and justification(s).
And do you think that you're going to get that here, in this thread? I would suggest emailing the "perpetrators".


No one's house has probably burned down with any non-THX certified speaker or audio interconnect.
Exactly. And equally irrelevant, I suppose. I am still looking for some detriment, besides a lighter wallet, that a consumer may have incurred because he/she used Monster cables.


I don't know nor care really. Show me what I'm buying. That's all.
You can see right through the packaging! Are you saying you buy their products? If so, what would be different if you knew THX™ certification meant absolutely nothing versus knowing exactly what it meant? If you don;t buy their products, why does it matter at all? Do you make certain that you know and understand what the labelling on your breakfast cereal means before you buy it. What about your milk? How about your fire extinguisher? It would seem to me that these would be much more important to you than what the labelling on some silly audio cables really means. Do you try to make certain everyone else understands other products' labelling besides Monster's?


Monster has credibility and a reputation that preceeds them. Good ot bad as it is...
Of course they do. And is that bad? Companies spend a lot of money and effort toward building such reputations, worthy or not. THAT is the "crux" of marketing. Why do most people buy Levi's. Beats me, but that's what I wear. Do you find it unfair that companies pay grocers to have their breakfast cereal displayed at eye-level? That, to me, is more of an injustice than Monster labelling their product as THX™ certified. That's almost subliminal and plays upon our own human biology. There are countless examples of much more questionable marketing tactics than those employed by Monster. You are influenced by marketing tactics MULTIPLE times every single day and you don't even know it. At least Monster's crime is simply a label that is both large and plainly visible. No small print, there.


No one even brought up that anyone was breaking a "law".
And I wasn't responding to anyone. That was not even the main point of what I said. But it is important and relevant to this discussion. It is a "fact".


We all understand the reality of the system and not sit back and blindly agree/digest with what is "fed" to us.
Of course you don't. That's the beauty of the system. You don't want it, don't buy it. It's pretty simple. Competitors will usually offer similar products, often at lower prices. It's your decision as to what you buy. I asked would you rather have no choice and have to instead buy one single government provided "brand" of audio cable? Were you duped by Monster's advertising? I have some Monster cables but never once did the fact that they were labelled as THX™ certified influence my decision to buy them.

I pointed Out in a previous post that there are consumer watchdog groups as well as the government to complain to. I doubt you're really going to influence anyone's "opinion" here in this thread. In fact, I know you're not. Everyone's mind has already been made up. I find the fact that people are so willing to blindly jump on the Monster bashing bandwagon MUCH more disgusting than Monster's marketing practices. That's my opinion, of course.

What was it P.T. Barnum said?


That's why we have voting machines!
So Monster's marketing practices are driving your decision at the polls? If so, are you voting for the Communist Party's candidate?

What was it P.T. Barnum said?
Step right up and see the bearded woman?

I'm exhausted. It's all your's milesdavis. Have fun.
IMO, you just like to argue for some self satisfying reason.

I hope your desires have been fulfilled. Buh-bye

IMO, you just like to argue for some self satisfying reason.
I am not arguing, damnit! :D

No hard feelings on my end at all, Ratman. I never considered there to be any argument. What were we arguing over, exactly? Seriously, I'd like to know. I know I couldn't tell you what it was. I was never angered by any of your responses to me and I would hope that my insignificant, but certainly annoying (at least my ex-wife thought so), self wouldn't cause you to lose any sleep.

Cheers.

I'm exhausted.

Translation: I'm beaten.

IMO, you just like to argue for some self satisfying reason.

Translation: Other than Schticker, the rest of us are brainwashed cable haters and cannot be convinced, so stop trying.

Two peas in a pod.

I think it would help consumers tremendously if the THX certification requirements were publicly known.

What Barnum did not say was,

"There's a Sucker Born Every Minute"

He did however sell tickets to see rarities, including the Egress, as in

"This way to the Egress"

In an AV Science Forum two fair questions remain unanswered. What is the science in THX speaker cable certification? What does the buyer get for his money?

I suspect the answer in in the story of the Egress.

What is hillarious is the fact that THX has gone into certifying video...Just another marketing ploy...

So Monster's marketing practices are driving your decision at the polls? If so, are you voting for the Communist Party's candidate?

I for one will never vote for another Clinton. Hillary or Chelsea.

www.ronpaul2008.com
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/www.ronpaul2008.com)

What Barnum did not say was,

"There's a Sucker Born Every Minute"

He did however sell tickets to see rarities, including the Egress, as in

"This way to the Egress"

In an AV Science Forum two fair questions remain unanswered. What is the science in THX speaker cable certification? What does the buyer get for his money?

I suspect the answer in in the story of the Egress.


As I always say, it's easy to be a pessimist, because nobody hates you if you're wrong. That seems to be the AVS mantra re: cables--unless of course it's a company that has a banner up top.

I think it would help consumers tremendously if the THX certification requirements were publicly known.
How?

I for one will never vote for another Clinton. Hillary or Chelsea.

www.ronpaul2008.com
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/www.ronpaul2008.com)
LOL, Ron Paul is supported by anarcho-capitalists.

Two peas in a pod.
How's that? I'm an independent thinker, sir. Unlike many of the participants in this thread.

What Barnum did not say was,

"There's a Sucker Born Every Minute"
All the more appropriate to this thread, huh? :)

And given the opportunity, he never denied saying it either.

I think it would help consumers tremendously if the THX certification requirements were publicly known.

How?

Because then we would know what the certification means, and could determine whether it is relevant to our own particular circumstances.

In the case of most product categories, we seem to have at least a general idea of their standards. So we can decide, say, whether we really need amps with the power-handling capabilities THX requires.

In the case of wires, however, we really don't know what makes a wire "THX-certifiable." Some of us suspect that's by deisgn.

In the case of most product categories, we seem to have at least a general idea of their standards.
Sure you do.


Some of us suspect that's by deisgn.
So?

Do you think that if they spelled out on a display next to their cable at CC or BB what THX™ certification means that it would really help the consumer who is about to purchase cables? It'd only serve to encourage the purchase of Monster cables. Do you think that Monster's cable sales would go up or down? Do you think it possible that they might ask even more for their cables if they did that?

For the people in this thread, the revelation of the THX™ standards (if there are any) wouldn't influence their opinion of Monster cables one iota. No one in this thread is going to then go out and buy Monster cables just because they suddenly realize that they ARE better (which no one is saying, or ever will say) because of the THX™ certification. Those who it would influence are those that are supposedly being duped by Monster in the first place. They'd be duped even more. No one here really thinks their cables are better just because they are THX™ certified.

Whether the standards are known or not is a "straw man". This sort of thread would, essentially, unfold identically if those standards WERE known. In fact it might even be more contentious (if it's even that, now). People would really know what they're arguing against (or for, as the case may be).

Do you think that if they spelled out on a display next to their cable at CC or BB what THX™ certification means that it would really help the consumer who is about to purchase cables?
Depends on what those standards are, doesn't it? If the certification is based on the robustness of the connectors, that would be a good thing for the consumer to know, wouldn't it?

Whether the standards are known or not is a "straw man". This sort of thread would, essentially, unfold identically if those standards WERE known.
This is decidedly wrong. If the standards were known, there wouldn't be any debate about whether THX was trying to capitalize on the mythology of high-end cables. If their standards all related to mechanical robustness, no one could accuse THX of trying to promote "magic" cables. The fact that THX doesn't make its standards known is what raises questions.

Forget that Monster is part of the equation!

If only one manaufacturer has been THX certified, why should someone select that wire/cable and perhaps pay more? What makes it more desirable/better than others with good specs/construction?

Can someone explain what makes a THX certified wire/cable better other than "they"... THX Labs says so?

Forget that Monster is part of the equation!

If only one manaufacturer has been THX certified, why should someone select that wire/cable and perhaps pay more? What makes it more desirable/better than others with good specs/construction?

Can someone explain what makes a THX certified wire/cable better other than "they"... THX Labs says so?

posting here is like beating your head on the wall:rolleyes:

posting here is like beating your head on the wall:rolleyes:

Translation: I'm beaten.

Do you think that if they spelled out on a display next to their cable at CC or BB what THX™ certification means that it would really help the consumer who is about to purchase cables? It'd only serve to encourage the purchase of Monster cables. Do you think that Monster's cable sales would go up or down? Do you think it possible that they might ask even more for their cables if they did that?


No. It is not possible that Monster cable sales would go up if they did that. Do you know how I know? Because THEN THEY WOULD DO THAT!

Monster is all, 100%, about marketing. The core of marketing is to, first and foremost, actually satisfying the customer's basic need. Thus, Monster product isn't particularly crappy. It's just particularly overpriced, and a gateway drug to even more insane expenditures like Valhalla power cords.

If THX published their specifications, then cheaper, non-THX-certified brands would publish their specs, and encourage users to compare, showing that a cheaper item may be just as good (or at least meet the same specs). Consumers would win, manufacturers paying money to THX would lose.

If it's really about delivering the right movie experience to end users, THX certification would be free for qualifying products.

posting here is like beating your head on the wall:rolleyes:

I agree... but, can you (or the other "wall") answer the simple question in post #181 without the sarcasm?:(

Forget that Monster is part of the equation!

A noble but unlikely goal around here.:rolleyes:

If only one manaufacturer has been THX certified, why should someone select that wire/cable and perhaps pay more?

Let's drop the "pay more" concept if we are to operate on known facts.

What makes it more desirable/better than others with good specs/construction?

It's a product (like many others) endorsed by a known high-quality organization. Does that automatically mean superiority? Maybe not, but some people can't be bothered digging over minutae to find out the same thing the certification says.

Can someone explain what makes a THX certified wire/cable better other than "they"... THX Labs says so?

Only if we know the specifics about the certification, which we do not. Not seeing the glass half-empty and without a chip on my shoulder about cabling in general, I will assume the process is valid.

Translation: I'm beaten.

touche

Can someone explain what makes a THX certified wire/cable better other than "they"... THX Labs says so?
I agree... but, can you (or the other "wall") answer the simple question in post #181 without the sarcasm?:(
I asked you why you thought that would be answered here in these forums, in this thread.

........................endorsed by a known high-quality organization.
It's not an organization, it's a "brand". Just like NFL.

This is decidedly wrong. If the standards were known, there wouldn't be any debate about whether THX was trying to capitalize on the mythology of high-end cables.
That's not what this thread is about. Someone initially asked a legitimate question regarding what THX™ certification meant in regards to cables. Who is "trying to capitalize on the mythology of high-end cables"? That was never postulated in this thread. And high-end cables were not even discussed. That's a whole other thread.


If their standards all related to mechanical robustness, no one could accuse THX of trying to promote "magic" cables.
No one has accused them of that in this thread.


The fact that THX doesn't make its standards known is what raises questions.
What questions? What are the standards? Most of us have already decided that what Monster does with the label is purely marketing. No one is being deceived, the cables ARE THX™ certified regardless of what it means, if it even means anything at all. Did you succumb and buy their cables because they were labelled "THX™ certified"?

It's not an organization, it's a "brand". Just like NFL.

All companies are organizations. It's interchangeable.

It's just particularly overpriced, and a gateway drug to even more insane expenditures like Valhalla power cords.
I disagree. This is just silly. A "gateway drug to even more insane expenditures like Valhalla power cords". Right. The people who would buy that are not the unwitting consumers the participants in this thread are concerned about. They may be overpriced, but at $29.99, most realize that they're not high-end cables.


If THX published their specifications, then cheaper, non-THX-certified brands would publish their specs, and encourage users to compare, showing that a cheaper item may be just as good (or at least meet the same specs). Consumers would win, manufacturers paying money to THX would lose.
Well, that's a wonderful platitude, jwatte, but it's also a bit simple. Most of the participants in this thread (myself included) are content to buy cables from places like Monoprice, site unseen, in a plain, non-labelled plastic bag. They're also just as eager to recommend such cables to "unwitting customers" who visit these forums asking about cables. It's not more informative packagng that people want. IT'S CHEAPER CABLES! If cables' packaging/advertising were more informative, that'd only provide us pseudo-audiophiles with something else to "call BS" on. Remember, these are the same people (myself included) who would argue that, for the most part, "cable is cable".

All companies are organizations. It's interchangeable.
For lack of anything better to say,..................... DUH! :D

The THX™ that is displayed on Monster cables is what is legally called a "brand".

The NFL is the National Footbal League. The football at Wal-Mart that is labelled NFL™ bears their "brand".

Let's drop the "pay more" concept if we are to operate on known facts.

It is not a known fact that a THX component does not cost more than a non-THX component given the certification process involved. In fact you have not a single shred of evidence based on any fact that a THX component does not cost more than a non-THX component.

--Regards,

Let's drop the "pay more" concept if we are to operate on known facts.
It is not a known fact that a THX component does not cost more than a non-THX component given the certification process involved.
Right. That's what he said.


In fact you have not a single shred of evidence based on any fact that a THX component does not cost more than a non-THX component.
So you want a "shred of evidence" that provides proof of a "negative"? :rolleyes:

Instead of such convoluted garbledy-gook, how about this?

It is not a known fact that a THX™ certified product costs any more than a comparable non-THX™ certified product.

That's all that needs to be said and it implies nothing whatsoever.

So you want a "shred of evidence" that provides proof of a "negative"?

Why don't you quit posting convoluted "garbledy-gook" and start using some basic comprehension skills.

From observation it seems that schticker believes that there is no cost factor involved in the certification process based on no evidence that he has seen. Then claims that we must just "drop it" and stick to known facts.

What, pray tell, are the known facts ?

That's all that needs to be said and it implies nothing whatsoever.

Just like your convoluted "garbledy-gook" arguments. :rolleyes:

--Regards,

Right. That's what he said.

No. That is not what he said. Like I said, basic English comprehension skills.

--Regards,

Why don't you quit posting convoluted "garbledy-gook" and start using some basic comprehension skills.
Oh, now that is a great response. Does basic comprehension skills include not having to turn my head sideways to read your previous post?


From observation it seems that schticker believes that there is no cost factor involved in the certification process based on no evidence that he has seen.
I agree with that. I have no reason to think that THX™ certification directly affects the retail price of Monster cables. If you have evidience to the contrary, please, by all means, present it.


What, pray tell, are the known facts?
I already told you. I'll rephrase it as known fact and make it as simple, unambiguous, and unbiased as possible for you.

It is a known fact that we do not know whether or not THX™ certification affects the retail price of Monster cables.


Just like your convoluted "garbledy-gook" arguments.
Ew, you did not not get me, ...................not. :D

No. That is not what he said. Like I said, basic English comprehension skills.
That is exactly what he said.

He said:

"Let's drop the "pay more" concept if we are to operate on known facts."

Which implies that it is not a known fact that THX™ certification adds anything to the retail price of Monster cables.

And it also implies, as you said, that it is not a known fact that THX™ certification does NOT add anything to the retail price of Monster cables. Correct me if that is not the same thing that you said?

And as I said, a much simpler (and yes, much more gramatically clear) unambiguous and unbiased summary of those two statements is:

It is a known fact that we do not know whether or not THX™ certification affects the retail price of Monster cables.


Now, I invite you to PLEASE try and spin this statement.

It is a known fact that we do not know whether or not THX™ certification affects the retail price of Monster cables.


Now, I invite you to PLEASE try and spin this statement.

Invitation Accepted.. ;-)

.selbac retsnoM fo ecirp liater eht stceffa noitacifitrec XHT ton ro rehtehw wonk ton od ew taht tcaf nwonk a si tI

I figured I been gone long enough, and you know someone was going to do it, so I thought might as well be me!!!!:D

Invitation Accepted.. ;-)

.selbac retsnoM fo ecirp liater eht stceffa noitacifitrec XHT ton ro rehtehw wonk ton od ew taht tcaf nwonk a si tI

I figured I been gone long enough, and you know someone was going to do it, so I thought might as well be me!!!!:D
It still says the same thing. :D

"Paul is dead".

Oh, now that is a great response.

Thanks. ;)

--Regards,

And it also implies, as you said, that it is not a known fact that THX™ certification does NOT add anything to the retail price of Monster cables.

Goodness gracious, you can't read. He assumed a priori, based on known evidence, that THX certification does not add to the cost of a consumer product (and if he never directly claimed this then he at least insinuated this indirectly) and that we should just "drop it" as if it were some foregone conclusion that had been reached.

All I said was that no such evidence had been submitted so there is nothing to drop. End of story. Now what is so damn difficult to understand about this ? I assume that we both can comprehend (and grasp) the English language so I see no reason to prolong this further.

Correct me if that is not the same thing that you said?

No, it is not the same thing I said, but close enough. ;)

--Regards,

It is a known fact that we do not know whether or not THX™ certification affects the retail price of Monster cables.

1) It is a known fact that there is a fee for THX certification/testing.
2) It is a known fact that there is a licencing fee to display the THX logo.
3) It is an unknown fact of the $$ amount to attain/qualify for the certification/licencing nor that criteria that makes THX certified "better" than non-THX certified.

I think that most anyone can come to the conclusion that no manufacturer is nice enough to absorb those expeditures/fees. Whether it be pennies or dollars, it gets passed on to the naive consumer. And you know it's not inexpensive or "everyone" would be jumping on the THX cable/wire bandwagon.

Now that is gramatically clear, unambiguous and unbiased summary. ;)

--Regards,

...I think that most anyone can come to the conclusion that no manufacturer is nice enough to absorb those expeditures/fees. Whether it be pennies or dollars, it gets passed on to the naive consumer...

Probably, but not a fact. Perhaps some marketing genius did a survey that showed that if a THX badge was displayed on either the cable or the cable package that sales would go up by a factor of "X" and that the cost of attaining the the right to display such a badge was "Y" and that X was far greater than Y. Well then it well could have been a simple marketing decision and perhaps, just perhaps, there was no incremental cost to the consumer. Farfetched, I agree, but not impossible.

And I have no idea why I posted in this thread just as I have no idea why this thread has gone on for as long as it has. The facts, as some of you state, are simply that:

Nobody knows what the certification process is.
Nobody knows how to find out.
Nobody knows if the spec is good, bad, or something in the middle.
Nobody knows if any other cable manufacturers would meet or not meet the spec.
Nobody knows if Monster is or isn't passing on the cost of the certification.
Nobody knows what the costs are associated with it.

So...all of this could have been said and was said in just a few posts. Yet here you all are, still posting the same shitck over and over and over again. for 7 long dull pages looking for yet new opportunities to argue and insult each other.

On second thought, this is a quite normal AVS thread. Sorry for the interuption. Carry on :D

Okay... how about, "nothing is free".

Also... I bet you didn't read all of the 200+ posts. ;)

So...all of this could have been said and was said in just a few posts. Yet here you all are, still posting the same shitck over and over and over again. looking for yet new opportunities to argue and insult each other

And your post will help continue the process. :)

Okay...I bet you didn't read all of the 200+ posts. ;)

Actually, I did. What does that say about me? Too much time on my hands :p

...And your post will help continue the process. :)

I know, I know. I never said I was any different than the rest of you. I've been around taking and giving abuse for 6 years. :o

atdamico, that was probably the most coherent and well written verbiage that I have ever read on this forum.

This thread is turning into a perpetual downward spiral of rehash after rehash and just plain repetition. It's like it's argument by repetition. Let's see who can rehash this argument and then repeat and then spin his or her interpretation so there really is no answer but more repetition and wiggly-woggly mishmash.

I think I need to sit down.

--Regards,

...And your post will help continue the process. :)

1) It is a known fact that there is a fee for THX certification/testing.
No it isn't. Do you have a link showing that there is a fee for THX™ certification of speaker cable or interconnects?

2) It is a known fact that there is a licencing fee to display the THX logo.
Again, got a link?

3) It is an unknown fact of the $$ amount to attain/qualify for the certification/licencing nor that criteria that makes THX certified "better" than non-THX certified.
What does "It is an unknown fact of the $$ amount to attain/qualify for the certification/licencing". And no one has ever, ever posited that THX™ certification makes any product "better" than a non-THX™ certified product. Ever. Not even Monster in their marketing of the product. How many times do we have to go over this?


I think that most anyone can come to the conclusion that no manufacturer is nice enough to absorb those expeditures/fees.
What fees? And I ask you again, do you think that those imaginary fees contribute to the retail price of a THX™ certified cable. If you do, you know absolutely nothing about business OR marketing. They sell a cable that probably costs them $2, tops, for $29.99. You think that markup is directly due to the cost of THX™ certification? Do some of the math.


Whether it be pennies or dollars, it gets passed on to the naive consumer. And you know it's not inexpensive or "everyone" would be jumping on the THX cable/wire bandwagon.
No, I don't know that it's expensive and neither do you. For all you or I know, it costs nothing. As I already pointed out, THX™ as it appears on Monster cables is simply a "brand". Nothing less. Nothing more.


Instead of posting the same repetitive bullsh!t in this thread, contact those who you consider to be the perpetrator with all your "complaints". You're not going to get anything except a headache from posting in this thread. Your posts are not informative. Your naive customers, for whom you crusade so bravely, are not even reading this thread. Maybe you should go to CC/BB and hold up a signboard.

Read post #61 again.
This has turned into an "I know you are, so what am I?" thread. I can umderstand your ex-wife's complaints. ;)

sivadselim, I'm working off memory here, but a couple of years ago I did email them and was told that there was indeed a fee just to get the process started. That process included non-disclosure agreements. I didn't get specific numbers but they refused to divulge any information unless some cash changed hands. Now, that might change for a large player like Monster or Liberty, but for me, who they don't know from a hole in the wall, they played very close to the vest. If I still had the email, I'd post it.

Instead of posting the same repetitive bullsh!t in this thread, contact those who you consider to be the perpetrator with all your "complaints". You're not going to get anything except a headache from posting in this thread. Your posts are not informative. Your naive customers, for whom you crusade so bravely, are not even reading this thread. Maybe you should go to CC/BB and hold up a signboard.

Okay... now you want to get "personal". Not good.

Anyway, as opposed to you being contrary to each and every statement I profess, why don't you come back with "proof" that THX certification doesn't require a fee and/or licensing doesn't require a fee/royalty? It should be just as easy for you to back your opinion(s) as you've tried to badger from me.

THX is not a "brand". It is a "badge" that says a product has met the THX standard (whatever that may be for wire/cable). It is a licensed trademark. It is not free to anyone. It's a business and they are out to make a buck. Not too tough to figure out for anyone.

Read post #61 again.
This has turned into an "I know you are, so what am I?" thread. I can umderstand your ex-wife's complaints. ;)
There is absolutely nothing in that link regarding the cost of THX™ certification of a speaker cable or interconnect. The article is entitled : Picture This: Digital Quality. The subtitle of the article is: THX projector certification puts the seal of approval on high-quality display.. The article goes on to say: "The THX testing and certification process is part of a licensing program that ultimately adds to the manufacturer's cost of goods sold. But does it add to the retail price of a pair of $29.99 RCA patch cords? I know it doesn't. You can think what you wish. But I asked you to do the math. The cables probably cost them $2, tops. And do you really think they make certain that the cables that are flying off the conveyer belt in China are up to any special specs that would then make them THX™ certified? Just as you suspect, THX™ certification of cables probably doesn't mean a thing. THX™ is a brand.


Please quit operating under the assumption that:

1. THX™ certification means ANYTHING at all.
2. THX™ certification directly adds to the retail cost of a pair of cables.
3. Any manufacturer has made any overt claims that THX™ certification of their cables makes that cable better than a non-THX™ certified cable.
4. A manufacturer is doing something illegal, improprietous, or deceiving.

Anyway, as opposed to you being contrary to each and every statement I profess, why don't you come back with "proof" that THX certification doesn't require a fee and/or licensing doesn't require a fee/royalty? It should be just as easy for you to back your opinion(s) as you've tried to badger from me.
Now YOU want me to prove a negative. Read my response to someone else who was foolishly asking for the same thing. Sorry, but any burden of proof in this circumstance is on you, otherwise you're blowing smoke, which is what you've been doing anyway.

You show me where Monster even makes one claim that THX certification makes a cable better than a non-THX certified cable.

THX is not a "brand". It is a "badge" that says a product has met the THX standard (whatever that may be for wire/cable). It is a licensed trademark. It is not free to anyone. It's a business and they are out to make a buck. Not too tough to figure out for anyone.
A "badge", huh? What is a "badge"? It's not a legal term. If anything, a "badge" is simply advertising. In the case of Monster cables, THX™ IS a "brand" and nothing more. In the case of what you read on a package of Monster cables that is exactly what it is and all that it is. It's THX™ certified, not THX-certified™. There is a big distinction. And nowhere on the packaging of a set fo cables do they claim that that THX™ certification label means ANYTHING at all. NOTHING. Basically, what you're completely hung up on is some advertising on the outside of a product's package. Go read up on some Marketing 101 and some business law.

But does it add to the retail price of a pair of $29.99 RCA patch cords? I now it doesn't.
Is that a fact or your opinion? You ask me to "prove" it... now back at ya. ;)

Please quit operating under the assumption that:

1. THX™ certification means ANYTHING at all.
I agree... for wire/cable, it means nothing IMO.

2. THX™ certification directly adds to the retail cost of a pair of cables.
It does in some fashion or else THX wouldn't have a "for profit" corporation that's still in business.

3. Any manufacturer has made any overt claims that THX™ certification of their cables makes that cable better than a non-THX™ certified cable.
If there is not any benefit whatsoever, then why label as such?

4. A manufacturer is doing something illegal, improprietous, or deceiving.
Never said illegal nor improprietous. Unless one knows exactly what the THX label denotes (techincally) on a cable/wire, I would be skeptical about what exactly I am buying and suspect deceit on someone's part.

Anyone who thinks THX certification doesn't cost money is being naive. Everything costs money. But a manufacturer cannot just automatically pass on costs to the consumer. However, certification benefits Monster two ways:

1) It encourages more people to buy the product. (The new hires at Circuit City now have an answer when someone asks, "What's the difference between Monster and the other stuff?")

2) It allows Monster to raise the price, because some consumers will pay more for a product that is "certified" by a name they trust. How much Monster raises the price is not a function of THX's fees, however. It's a function of the demand elasticity curve that Monster faces--the trade-off between higher price and lower sales.

My guess is that #1 is far more important than #2.

None of this changes the underlying facts:
1) Monster doesn't sound different from the other stuff.
2) THX knows this.
3) THX is willing to play along with Monster and take its money anyway.

Is that a fact or your opinion? You ask me to "prove" it... now back at ya. ;)
No, it's common sense. I know that THX certification doesn't increase the cost of a $2 (if that) set of cables to $29.99.


It does in some fashion or else THX wouldn't have a "for profit" corporation that's still in business.
FO sourse it's for profit. So is Monster. And they're in cahoots, so to speak. But the certification doesn't add directly to the retail price for the Monster cables.


If there is not any benefit whatsoever, then why label as such?
Jeez! Have you absorbed nothing? It is f@cking marketing, for crying out loud! That you think it means something means you fell for it, too! Well I NEVER fell for it. I know what it is.


Never said illegal nor improprietous. Unless one knows exactly what the THX label denotes (techincally) on a cable/wire, I would be skeptical about what exactly I am buying and suspect deceit on someone's part.
You seem awefully defensive whenever I mention illegal or improprietous with your defense being "I never said that". I never said you said anything like that. However you certainly behave as if you think there is something improprietous going on. I'm just pointing out a plain fact. They are doing nothing illegal, nor improprietous. It's pure marketing that even you, as evidenced above, have apparently fallen for. That you are paranoid about what you buy and why is healthy, but as I pointed out over and over in this thread, marketers pull the wool over your eyes every day.

However, certification benefits Monster two ways:

1) It encourages more people to buy the product.
So what? That's called MARKETING. Are you a communist, too?


(The new hires at Circuit City now have an answer when someone asks, "What's the difference between Monster and the other stuff?")
What? "It's THX certified"? They don't have too much to say beyond that, though, do they? What do they say when someone says "And what is that?"


2) It allows Monster to raise the price, because some consumers will pay more for a product that is "certified" by a name they trust. How much Monster raises the price is not a function of THX's fees, however. It's a function of the demand elasticity curve that Monster faces--the trade-off between higher price and lower sales.
Who "trusts" THX? And if they do, that's brilliant MARKETING on the part of THX. Nothing more, nothing less.

I never, ever proposed that THX certification didn't indirectly affect the retail price that Monster asks for their cables. If they feel they can ask a higher price for their product because of something it says on the label, that is what we call MARKETING. That is the whole reason stuff we buy doesn't come ini a plain white wrapper.

What I did ask is if anyone really thought that they would sell their cables for a lesser price if they were not THX certified. I think we all know the answer to that question.


None of this changes the underlying facts:
1) Monster doesn't sound different from the other stuff.
And no one, not even Monster, makes this claim.

3) THX is willing to play along with Monster and take its money anyway.
So? I'll ask you again. Are you a Communist? You don't like something about MOnster or THX, DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCTS. It's simple as that. That's the power you have as a consumer.

No, it's common sense. I know that THX certification doesn't increase the cost of a $2 (if that) set of cables to $29.99.



FO sourse it's for profit. So is Monster. And they're in cahoots, so to speak. But the certification doesn't add directly to the retail price for the Monster cables.



Jeez! Have you absorbed nothing? It is f@cking marketing, for crying out loud! That you think it means something means you fell for it, too! Well I NEVER fell for it. I know what it is..

Do you have anything to back your claim/opinion?

No one disagrees that it's only marketing to sell product(s). And to go full circle... what makes THX a "better" choice over brand X wire/cable?

Now YOU want me to prove a negative.

Prove a negative ? You make claims of knowledge and except people to shoulder their claims without support for your own ? It seems we have double standards now.

Read my response to someone else who was foolishly asking for the same thing.

Foolish ? You lack reading comprehension ability for goodness sake ! You are the one foolishly going around making claims of knowledge that you couldn't possibly know and then chalk it up to "common sense".

Please. These tactics are starting to wear thin.

Sorry, but any burden of proof in this circumstance is on you, otherwise you're blowing smoke, which is what you've been doing anyway.

Pot calling the kettle black ?

No, it's common sense. I know that THX certification doesn't increase the cost of a $2 (if that) set of cables to $29.99.

Prove it ! You've just made a claim of knowledge now you must shoulder that claim. Prove that THX certification doesn't increase the cost of a $2 set of cables.

And please, stop whining that people need to shoulder their claims without shouldering your own. :rolleyes:

--Regards,

But the certification doesn't add directly to the retail price for the Monster cables.

There you did it again ! Another claim. Where is the evidence sivadselim ? All talk and little substance. Again. :rolleyes:

--Regards,

Do you have anything to back your claim/opinion?
No

No one disagrees that it's only marketing to sell product(s). And to go full circle... what makes THX a "better" choice over brand X wire/cable?
Who are you talking to? I don't think it does make a better choice. Monster doesn't claim that, either. That you even think that indicates that you fell for their marketing ploy. Can you show me where Monster claims that the THX certification makes their cables "better"? Or even "better choice", which would mean something different?

[QUOTE=sivadselim;12768650]


And no one, not even Monster, makes this claim.
QUOTE]

Yes they do. From the monster website.

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier. Delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound.

Now funny thing is 100ft of 16 gauge speaker THX cable is 35 bucks on monsters site. Regular non THX 16 gauge is .60 cents a foot.

There you did it again ! Another claim. Where is the evidence sivadselim ? All talk and little substance. Again.
You're not even worthy of a response, goneten.

Yes they do. From the monster website.
No, they don't.


Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier.
As do all cables.


Delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound.[/QUOTE]


Nowhere in that quote do they claim that it is because they are THX certified. Nowhere. You're not going to find that because they know it, too. Do Monster cables "deliver more power transfer"? Who knows? How is that measured? Do they provide "an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound"? OF course they do. So do any other cables.

[QUOTE=speco2003;12769481]
Nowhere in that quote do they claim that it is because they are THX certified. Nowhere. You're not going to find that because they know it, too.

Yes they do did you read the quote? Here I will post it again with the link. Maybe you can read it better there.

QOUTE"Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier. Delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound. " End


http://www.monstercable.com/home_av/speaker_cables/stereo_and_surround.asp

How about we look at someone else's completely different product and advertising and let's pick it apart. In the end, the result would be the same. It's legal marleting.

I'm speaking to everyone that wants to "discuss" as opposed to challenge.

I never fell into the marketing ploy because I'm informed and have some background to make an informative descision. There are many that blindly follow the lead(s) of the salesperson or e-tailers.

I've run across so many individuals over the years that state, "Monster is the best" and add to that, "THX must even be better. That's the company that made Star Wars!".

I find it very curious as to why you feel the need to strongly "defend" and challenge this topic. Stockholder? ;)

As much as the conspiracy theorist in me would like to prove this statement(they don't claim it is better) wrong, I have to concur....it appears that they are very careful to not state that this is the HIGHEST PERFORMING CABLE because of THX Certification. They don't even really say it is the highest performing cable at all, they just say that you need the HIGHEST PERFORMING CABLE. It is almost like an optical illusion, for some reason when I read this 'marketing' my mind wants me to think the are claiming the WORLDS BEST CABLES, butt after careful reading I have to admit I can't find it!!!

This doesn't change the fact that I don't find them to be any better than zipcord.....

Here is a quote from their THX Speaker Cable page:

When You're Serious About Home Theatre You Need the Highest Performance Cable
Serious home theatre means achieving the best possible picture and sound. Maximizing performance requires using the most advanced cable. For Monster Cable, that meant making our best even better. The main criteria was performance-create the world's highest quality, most advanced line of home theatre cable. So, Monster joined forces with THX, the leader in audio/video quality assurance programs for select movie theatres, home theatre components, and DVDs. And a new breed of home theatre cable was born.

Introducing Monster Ultra Series THX-Certified Speaker Cable
Monster's Ultra Speaker Cable 1000 features low-loss QuadraPole™ construction to dramatically reduce high frequency signal loss. Unlike Monster, ordinary cable with its two conductor design will have high inductance, which causes a loss of high frequencies. Large space between electrical fields (+ and -) creates inductance, an electrical phenomenon causing high frequency signal loss. The effect is lackluster sound as the highs are rolled off. QuadraPole™ optimizes the relationship between electrical fields by utilizing four high purity copper conductors, tightly twisted in a helical configuration. This reduces the space between the conductors and reduces the inductance. You'll hear the full audio bandwidth with amazing clarity and more balanced sound.

Advanced Time Correct® Windings and Magnetic Flux Tube® Construction for Unprecedented Balance and Sonic Accuracy
Each wire network of Monster's Ultra Speaker Cable 1000 utilizes patented Time Correct windings for precise imaging and exact placement of dialogue, music and sound effects across a wide sound stage. The patented Magnetic Flux Tube® increases current-handling capacity for deeper, tighter bass.

Greater Power Transfer for Full Dynamic Range
Maximum power transfer. It's one of the cornerstones of great home theatre speaker cable performance. With Monster, you've got the power! Monster Ultra Series Speaker Cable features not the typical two, but four larger gauge copper conductors for greater power transfer that brings all the heart-pounding home theatre movie excitement to life.

:(

You're not even worthy of a response, goneten.

I'm not worthy ? You are ridiculous. You make claims and don't support them. You whine like a little child when called to support said claims. You insult numerous members on several occasions on a consistent basis. You also seem unable to actually read what is written on these pages.

What a complete waste of space. What on earth is the point of having a discussion if you can't even follow the rules of basic argumentation ? It's ridiculous.

--Regards,

Monster Standard® THX-Certified Speaker Cable delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier.
Nowhere in that quote does it attribute or even imply that the reason it "delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier" is because it is THX certified. If that is what it means to you, then their marketing "worked" on you, too.

I'll paraphrase that statement for you. It says:

OUR CABLE "delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier".

And that is ALL it says. If it means what you are trying to say it means, you've been duped. Consumers really need to learn to read and think for themselves.

BTW, in case you didn't figure it out, MOST ALL CABLE "delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier".


"Delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound."
On it's own, that statement is not even connected to the cable's THX certification. But even if it said:

Our THX certified cable "delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound".

All that it would be saying is:

OUR CABLE "delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound".

Nowhere in either of those quotes does it say:

Because our cable is THX certified, it "delivers the full dynamic range of soundtracks when hooked up to a surround sound speaker, A/V receiver or amplifier".

Because our cable is THX certified, it "delivers more power transfer than those ordinary cables providing an accurate, total spectrum of solid sound".

Nowhere.

You can hem and haw all you want. What you are quoting does not say what either you think it says (which would indicate that you either are not a discerning reader or you fell for the marketing). And it doesn't say what you wish for it to say for the sake of your argument.

We're talking about advertising and marketing here and your claims would never, ever hold up in a court of law. EVER.

You know, there ought to be classes in HS on how to understand advertising.

What a strong argument you have. You make claims and don't support them.
I've responded to your meaningless questions in spades, goneten. You simply came back and repeated what you've already posted. I would suggest you go back and read my previous responses to you. I'm not going to type them again. In fact, I would suggest you go back and read ALL my responses in this thread.

You know, there ought to be classes in HS on how to understand advertising.
Perhaps. I would suggest that there are people who never learned how to read with any discernment in the first place.

There ARE classes in HS that teach marketing, and even advertising, btw.

KLIPSCH - The Ultimate Sound Experience™

HSU Research - Engineered for Breathtaking Sound

SVS - The Sound Authority

Paradigm - The Ultimate in Sound for Music and Theater™

Definitive Technology - The Leader in High Performance Loudspeakers™

"B&W makes the world's most advanced home cinema, hi-fi and iPod® speakers,........"

Ascend Audio - Reaching the Peak of Audio Purity

EPIK Subwoofers- The Bass Champion

Audio Concepts Incorporated - Sound that Satisfies............... Since 1977


Now, go look in your cupboard.

Do you think that Wonder Bread "builds strong bodies"?

Are Wheaties really "The Breakfast of Champions"?

I could go on and on and on with this. And yes, there are even "YADDA-YADDA-YADDA certified" items in your pantry.

I've been wondering what that NBA-certification on that shoe down at Dick's means. How about that NFL certified t-shirt?

How about that ADA certified toothbrush. Even if you could find the standards necessary for that certification, I guarantee you it ain't much besides having some bristles and being a certain length (if that). And even if you can find some stringent requirements, you're not going to find ANY manufacturer claiming that their ADA certified toothbrush can brush teeth any better than a non-ADA certified toothbrush.

And don't forget:

"4 out of 5 Dentists surveyed would recommend Trident for their patients who chew gum."

... and none have the THX trademark included in the marketing hype.

True, they (Monster) do not state "our cable", but they do prefix, "THX-certified cable".

... and none have the THX trademark included in the marketing hype.
No but KLIPSCH has trademarked "The Ultimate Sound Experience™" Paradigm has trademarked "The Ultimate in Sound for Music and Theater™" Man, if you bought a setup including both those brands you'd be set, wouldn't you?

But I am glad that you see that THX™ is only a trademark included as marketing hype.

True, they (Monster) do not state "our cable", but they do prefix, "THX-certified cable".
And...................................


I'm still waiting to see where Monster claims that their cables are better because they are THX certified.

I've responded to your meaningless questions in spades, goneten.

Meaningless as in "pertinent" ? "Responding" and "addressing' are two different things sivadselim. Have you decided to shoulder the claims you have made in this thread ? No.

I'm not going to type them again. In fact, I would suggest you go back and read ALL my responses in this thread.

Wading through all your tedious responses in this thread is something I would rather avoid.

--Regards,

I've been wondering what that NBA-certification on that shoe down at Dick's means. How about that NFL certified t-shirt?

In the fairness of thoroughness and consistency, The NBA and NFL are brands. Monster Cable is a brand. THX Certified is not a brand, it is an Identifier/Logo....THX is a Brand but not when it is an adder to another's Brand, it is then just an Approved Product.

The above mentioned Shoes are not Certified by the NBA, and the mentioned shirts are not Certified by the NFL, they are "Approved", meaning Co-Marketed. The Monster Cables are branded by Monster and Approved/Certified by THX (the proof is in the above post where I pasted directly from Monsters site, I am not going to repaste, just read above if questioning). Again, all this is in the guise of thoroughness and consistency.

How do we post a poll? The poll should read:

In your Experience is there a need for Speaker Cables to be THX Certified?

A) Yes

B) No

C) Are you Serious?

:)

HERE (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/monster-and-andre-young-offer-up-beats-by-dr-dre-headphones/)

I saw this in a post in another forum here.

"Yo! Better because Dr. Dre says so™" :D

There ARE classes in HS that teach marketing, and even advertising, btw.Yes, my oldest was into DECA. I'm talking about it from the POV of the consumer in order to quickly educate them into how to read what's said, what's not said, and the ways consumers are marketed to. Make them more aware. Maybe toss in some Penn & Teller too. I'm going to see if my 'usually reliable sources' have any inside information on this.

There are many that blindly follow the lead(s) of the salesperson or e-tailers.
Yeah, how many?


I've run across so many individuals over the years that state, "Monster is the best" and add to that, "THX must even be better. That's the company that made Star Wars!".
How many is "so many"?


I find it very curious as to why you feel the need to strongly "defend" and challenge this topic. Stockholder?
I'd probably defend any product against slander when it's unwarranted. Monster's THX certification is actually easier to defend than, say, KLIPSCH's assertion that they are "The Ultimate Sound Authority" or EPIK's claim that they are "The Bass Champion". Monster's products that are labelled as such ARE THX certified.

You're not even worthy of a response, goneten.

What a cop-out...:rolleyes:

What happened to Schticker?

[I] As much as the conspiracy theorist in me would like to prove this statement(they don't claim it is better) wrong, I have to concur....it appears that they are very careful to not state that this is the HIGHEST PERFORMING CABLE because of THX Certification. They don't even really say it is the highest performing cable at all, they just say that you need the HIGHEST PERFORMING CABLE. It is almost like an optical illusion, for some reason when I read this 'marketing' my mind wants me to think the are claiming the WORLDS BEST CABLES, butt after careful reading I have to admit I can't find it!!!
EXACTLY


This doesn't change the fact that I don't find them to be any better than zipcord.....
And me either. Not in tranferring a signal to speaker, anyway. Construction-wise, they "might" be better.


Here is a quote from their THX Speaker Cable page:
And what is it supposed to demonstrate to me. I would think people would be more up in arms about the Quadrapole construction.

What a cop-out...:rolleyes:
Oh, have a not typed enough for you, yet. Maybe it was too much for you to read, too.

In the fairness of thoroughness and consistency, The NBA and NFL are brands. Monster Cable is a brand. THX Certified is not a brand, it is an Identifier/Logo....THX is a Brand but not when it is an adder to another's Brand, it is then just an Approved Product.It IS a brand. That is exactly what it is as it is used on a package of Monster cables; a brand. Period. THX calls it that themselves. Find the press release where Monster announces that they will now display the "THX brand". It is a brand in exactly the same way that NFL is a brand. Ask a business lawyer. It is a "brand". I already discussed this earlier in the thread.


The above mentioned Shoes are not Certified by the NBA, and the mentioned shirts are not Certified by the NFL, they are "Approved", meaning Co-Marketed. The Monster Cables are branded by Monster and Approved/Certified by THX (the proof is in the above post where I pasted directly from Monsters site, I am not going to repaste, just read above if questioning).
What your quote says is:

"So, Monster joined forces with THX, the leader in audio/video quality assurance programs for select movie theatres, home theatre components, and DVDs. And a new breed of home theatre cable was born."

The also call the cable "THX Certified Cable". Nowhere does it say "Approved/Certified by THX" (unless I missed it). And even if it did, why do you folks think certified in this instance means ANYTHING in particular regarding ANY sort of standards. It's meaningless, as many here, myself included, have asserted.

EXACTLY



And me either. Not in tranferring a signal to speaker, anyway. Construction-wise, they "might" be better.



And what is it supposed to demonstrate to me. I would think people would be more up in arms about the Quadrapole construction.

A) Construction looks better than Zip Cord, unless the minimalist in you wins out.

B) It was meant for reference to my Non-Finding of the PROOF I was so sure I would find that is all. Was your question meant as a dig? Quadrapole? Is that what they call it after you have had one two many and decide it is a good idea to take your 500cc ATV down the neighborhood street and meet a Telephone POLE head on?

:eek: