Well, it was about a year ago that I began the "First Impressions of the new JVC thin (Slim D-ILA) RP sets" thread. JVC seemed to have made a major advance in compact, wall-mountable rear projection, and we looked forward to the sets with interest. They were supposed to come out last January (for the 58") and March (for the 65"), but were both very late, and unlike the previous HD-xxFC/FH/FN97 sets, the new Slim models have essentially no retail presence. I remained interested in getting the larger 65" set, and due to the lack of any retail availability, had to buy it sight unseen. I purchased the set from Brian Pool at Tape Works Texas, who was very professional and helpful. The only other trustworthy site offering these sets is B&H Photo Video, but their price is higher. Beware of the scam shops that claim to sell this set. It arrived last week, followed by the wall mount. I now have it fully installed, with the set mounted on a wall behind a drop-down 100" Dalite High Power screen and JVC RS-1 front projector. We use the RS-1 for evening cinema or occassional big screen Direct TV viewing, while using the 65S998 for more casual and day-time viewing. This is a probably unique case of "coaxial three chip LCOS", one RP and one FP, both as it happens, from JVC.

Given the news of Sony exiting the rear projection market, and the absence of more than a couple of RP sets at most major retailers, it may be that RP's days are numbered. In my opinion, though, they continue to offer the best picture quality and the best price for a large TV. Their power savings is another trendy plus these days. I have no mis impressions regarding the vitality of this new "Owner's Thread", though. To the best of my knowledge, there is only one other AVS poster who owns a 65S998, and I'm not sure if there are ANY 58S998 owners who post on AVS. If it weren't for the geometry issue, I'd think JVC has pulled off the best rear projection set out there, but with the trickle of ~ 20 per month entering the country, it is destined to remain a rarity.


In a nutshell, here are my first impressions of the JVC 65S998:

Pros:

* Picture Quality: With a few important qualifiers as described below, the picture is awesome. Bear in mind that this TV replaced an old SD set connected to analog cable (Comcast). We had Direct TV with their HD-DVR service installed just before the 65S998 showed up. Granted, we had been watching movies on the killer JVC RS-1 and high power screen for the last six months, but the overall impression is pretty amazing. Incredible detail, vivid colors, more than ample brightness, no motion artifacts, etc. While I will be candid about the flaws that I notice, these have to be viewed in the overall context of an amazing TV.

* Set Depth: JVC did a great job here. This set is way ahead of all other rear projection competitors when it comes to their thickness for a given diagonal size (10.4" for a 58" diagonal; 11.6" for a 65" diagonal). These depths hardly compare with flat panel sets, of course, but that's pretty much a given.

* LCOS Technology: JVC worked with Hughes decades ago to give birth to LCOS technology. They have been at it longer than anyone else, and it shows. Sony has gotten close, but as the RS-1 front projector (which I own) demonstrates with its 15,000:1 native contrast ratio (doubled to 30,000 in the new RS-2), JVC is the king when it comes to LCOS. Their implementation in rear projection sets, while not as advanced as that of their front projectors, is still better than Sony; they have never had to address "green blob" issues, and the fill factor is very high.

* Wall mountable design: The new HD-58S998 and 65S998 have flat backs, and are intended for wall mounting (although some will still choose to place this set on a conventional stand). For thicker rear projection sets from competing firms, this would be ridiculous, not to mention a bizarre structural cantilever. See below for my experience in wall mounting.

* Ultra-thin bezel. At 10 mm (0.4 inches), this set is essentially all picture. Many flat panel sets come up short here, with wide bezels, although to be fair, the thin bezel does not extend to the bottom, which is ~ 9 inches high.

* Build quality: At 115 and 141 pounds, respectively, these sets are hardly lightweights. Part of the weight is an expensive aluminum frame, which is a real step ahead of all plastic sets. From everything I can see, the build quality appears to be excellent.

* Viewing angle: The horizontal viewing angle is very impressive; the picture still looks great even when you are looking at a grazing angle. The vertical angle is more than adequate; the picture does not degrade much at all when moving from the floor to sitting to standing.

* Sound System: These sets have a pretty awesome 30 watt sound system, with a built-in subwoofer. Granted, some users will employ a separate surround sound receiver and speakers to handle audio, but for anyone who just wants to turn on a TV and get great sound, this set does it.

* Electrical power efficiency: While these JVC sets, at 219 watts, are essentially comparable in power consumption to competitive rear projection sets, they are much more power efficient than plasmas or LCD sets, especially at the larger (65") size. Typical 65" plasmas burn three times as many watts, and 65" LCD sets burn twice as many watts. For example, the Panasonic PH-65PZ750U plasma weighs 180 lbs, and consumes 795 watts; you won't find this on the web site specs; it is conveniently buried at the back of their manual. If we as a nation move to LCD and plasma flat panel sets, while at the same time demanding large (>60") TV's, there will be significant consequences in energy consumption and environmental impacts.


Neutral issues:

Audible noise: This is a mild annoyance on the RS-1 front projector. The 65S998 has an interesting cooling design, passing air from right to left along the lower base of the set. There is audible air or fan noise, but it is of a very low wooshh that is pretty easy to tune out.

Cons:

* Color saturation: The 65S998 shares with its RS-1 front projector brother an over saturated color gamut, particularly for green, and this can lead to difficulties rendering grass in outdoor scenes. The grass can look a little unrealistically lime-neon. I'll add some screen shots that reveal this. If you turn down the color control till it looks normal, overall colors are too muted. Since the remote is different, I can't use the same keys to enter the service menu as on the Fx97 sets; I have a question on how to enter the service menu before JVC. If I could access separate RGB color controls, that could help, although this still doesn't fix the issue on the RS-1.

* Smell: I think this is behind us, but for the first few days there was a slightly burnt smell emenating from the set, which my wife especially objected to. I think we're over this.

* Geometry: This has been a major complaint about these sets. Early models had a problem in which horizontal lines in the upper third of the image curved upwards at the ends. This set has pretty good horizontal and vertical lines at the center and edges of the image, but suffers from concave outwards vertical lines about 2/3rds of the way out from center. It is noticeable and objectionable, particularly since the problem occurs right where 4:3 content is pillarboxed. I want this repaired; we will see how I do.

* Silk Screen Effect: This is one basic drawback to rear projection. It can consist of a glitter or sparkles from points on a white field, or a fixed pattern film that is tied to the screen, and shows up during pans. There are no sparkles visible with this set, but there is a filmy fixed pattern issue. When I drop the brightness down to -20 or so, it is less obvious, but that setting crushes the blacks. On some content it is completely invisible; on others, it is present and can be distracting. I have seen it in both bright and low light level scenes.

* Price: There is no doubt about it; these sets are not priced competitively with other RP sets. Granted, they have some unique strengths, but a price nearly double their peers is not supportable.

* No Center Channel capability: This is a step backward from the FH97 and FN97 models of last year. It is a stupid oversight. These sets frequently find themselves as part of a 5.1 home theater, and the need to co-locate a central speaker with the TV is ridiculous.

* No Contrast adjustment: There is a "Picture" control that might have some elements of a contrast control, but attempts to use this with the Brightness control to reduce SSE while avoiding crushing blacks has not yet yielded a suitable compromise. All of the picture setting descriptions are so terse as to leave one confused; the iris control, for example, ranges from -10 to +10, and is simply described as "The iris adjusts the level of brightness on the TV screen".


I bought the 65S998 wall mount. It was huge, but it works well. A steel U-shaped bracket bolts to your wall, although my mounting location was centered on a stud, so I had to drill holes for the left and right stud 16" to either side. This was an oversight. A full-sized steel tube and wood affair attaches to the rear of the set, while welded base brackets and a wooden shelf support the weight. The set with back and base then hooks onto the wall bracket, and can slide to the left or right before you snug up some bolts. The thin 11.6" depth of the set became 16" once the wall mount was added; I could have machined up a thinner version, but the added depth wasn't obvious when I ordered the wall mount, and it's not as though I needed a machining project right now.

A few pictures of the set follow. One is as it arrived, still in the box. It's BIG. The next is a screen shot from 2001: A Space Odyssey. The second is the same shot, with the drop down screen in front. Note the curvature of the doorway in the RP image compared to the straight lines on the FP image. The next two are shots of the wall mounting. I'll have to add a new post or two to load the other pictures.

Here is a PDF from the installation instructions that might make the wall mount design a little clearer, along with a geometry grid from DVE, and some overly vivid shots of green grass.

Kevin

Some 2.40, 16:9, and 4:3 content, showing the curvature, a far off axis shot, and an on-screen guide.

Kevin

The real cruncher with this TV is the geometry, the grid itself would not look out of place at a Bridget Riley exhibition, not a straight line anywhere. Sad week for LCOS.

Kevin, that mounted on your wall looks crazy! I think you may have talked me into doing it. Awesome. BTW, I can live with the very minor geometry issues. I only really notice when my comcast grid is up. The issues are nowhere near as stated before on the 58" early sets. Where exactly did you get your wall mount. I want one from a reputable dealer. That looks fantastic.

PS. I noticed your grid is a little on the high side. The old D-ILA service menu combo still works with this TV. I'm not sure if you knew about it, but here it is.

1. Press "Sleep timer" so it says 0
2. Press "Display and Video status" at the same time.
3. Press "#9"
4. "Display" button cycles between R/G/RGB
5. On RGB you can move the entire screen up/down/left/right to align with the arrow buttons.
6. Press "menu" to exit.

I did this with my old 70FH97 remote, but haven't tried it with the new one. It has the same buttons on the new one, so it may work.

I thought, based on the 58 I saw in a store last fall, that JVC had solved the geometry problems. Obviously not. Shame on JVC. They should either get out of the RPTV business completely or invest the resources necessary to produce a set with quality commersurate with the premium price they are charging. Have the managers no professional pride?

I'll continue to enjoy my D-ILA until it fails or the industry gets its act together. But what the heck, there's people in the world who don't even have clean water to drink...

aod: Thanks; I was able to access the service menu, and used the "#9" bit to better align the grid (screenshot attached). The circles are now centered left to right and up to down; the vertical scaling is just the slightest bit large, so the circles are very slightly interrupted. I couldn't find a place in the service menu to adjust R, G, and B drive levels independently. Do you know how to do this?

I bought the wall mount from Brian at TT. It was $295 + shipping, and can only be shipped via truck. The box is nearly as big as the set, but thinner. The effect of open, uncluttered space under the set is very nice, and "resembles" flat panel sets. If you are handy with metal, and can get some aluminum or steel angle, I could show you how to make your own that would be thinner and cheaper, but at some effort.

Kevin

It appears (from what I've seen anyways) that all the service menu tricks and tweaks from the Fx97 models work with ours. If you go through the owners thread there are ways to adjust pretty much everything. I used to know which option it was, but have forgotten. If you want to just move the R or B you can do this through "#9" and "Display" cycles, but the G moves with the whole screen.

Kevin - Thanks for the full update. Did you determine the build date of your 65? Where are they assembled?
Once you can access the service menu; do you think the green push can be minimized?

The wall mount for a unit this size is tremendous.

I interpreted that you have already begun the dialogue with JVC re. Geometry issues? It will be important to see how they take action.

Thanks for sticking with this JVC venture. I'm still interested in the 65, and do appreciate you and AOD for blazing the trail.

AOD - Now that Kevin has given his analysis, anything you have to update, regarding geometry and the Green push? any other new issues, or still tremendous?

Thanks, Mark

I have seen UMR work on a 70 Pro model LCOS & would very much like to see the results he would get with the 65"Slim.

This is one of the few RP's that wont be looked at as a dinosaur in 2-3 years. Part of me says "who cares" hell, I have two 180 lb. front projection CRT's hanging from my ceiling, but for most without dedicated rooms that is a nice perk.

You mention geometry issues & people stay away like the plague & this has effectively killed this set. That is a shame as Kevin has discoverd since it does so many other things well. On the 65" I see all the time (a football watching buddy) there are no geometry issues visible.

My guess is that UMR would have no problem correcting any color issues.

Merry Christmas!!

Damon,

Here are results from a recent unit. It looked good when I was done. I did not see any serious geometry issues with this 58" unit. I have not worked on one of the new 65" units.

Please forgive the dumb question D'ILA lovers but which D'ILA sets have the best picture quality--the S998 slim ones--the FN 97s--or the 2U Pro models?

I figured out how to access the RGB drive levels; you enter the service menu (Sleep timer 0, hit Display and Video buttons at once); select "1" (Adjust), and then the R, G, and B drive levels are S001, S002, and S003, respectively. Switch between them with the Channel +/- control, and their values can be changed with the Volume +/- control. Hitting Muting saves the new values. I set R to 130, G to 115, and B to 120. I also have the Color Temperature set to Low, Tint 0, Color -10, Picture +4, Brightness -15, Detail +5, and Iris -3. I have most of the picture enhancements turned ON, although their effect is hard to discern. Attached is another shot from "Babe", this time with with more realistic greens. All in all, I am pretty happy with the set, my remaining gripes being the geometry errors, which simply don't belong in a set of this price, and the SSE, which while muted can be seen from time to time, although this is par for the course in rear projection, and it is less obtrusive than on many RP TVs.

Kevin

Can any of the JVC D'ILA lovers here tell me which D'ILA is the greatest?

Can any of the JVC D'ILA lovers here tell me which D'ILA is the greatest?

Depends on what you're looking for. The 720p "G" series are excellent for years of dependable service if you're not looking for the ultimate in display quality. The 1080p "F" series have more pixels and better contrast ratio, but some people have complained about excess green that cannot easily be tuned out, although I've never seen it on the many store models I've seen. The new 998 series are just arriving and you can read about them on this and the other related thread. They're a little pricey.

If I was in the market now I'd definitely be considering a 56 inch F. Prices are great.

The only one I'd definitely warn against would be the early "Z" models which had multiple problems. They are long gone from stores but occasionally show up on used TV ads.

Kevin,
After having lived with the unit for a while, what are your thoughts now? Did you ever get the geometry issues corrected to your liking?

Depends on what you're looking for. The 720p "G" series are excellent for years of dependable service if you're not looking for the ultimate in display quality. The 1080p "F" series have more pixels and better contrast ratio, but some people have complained about excess green that cannot easily be tuned out, although I've never seen it on the many store models I've seen. The new 998 series are just arriving and you can read about them on this and the other related thread. They're a little pricey.

If I was in the market now I'd definitely be considering a 56 inch F. Prices are great.

The only one I'd definitely warn against would be the early "Z" models which had multiple problems. They are long gone from stores but occasionally show up on used TV ads.
Davegow...."If I was in the market now I'd definitely be considering a 56 inch F. Prices are great..."

I'm in the market for a 56FH97 display as a 2nd set. (I currently have the 61" version and love it). However, do you have some good SOURCES for pricing? I can't seem to replicate prices I spotted in December ?!

-Phil

I'm in Canada so can't help you with California sources.

I've look around for a while now on the unit's 1080p/24Hz capability but have not been able to find any.

Does anyone here knows if the HD-58S998 do 1080p/24Hz 'naturally' w/o telecine conversion?

Thank you!


Setup: JVC HD-58S998
Samsung BD-UP5000
Toshiba HD Series-3 TIVO

YuccaDave: I have been working flat out on a game-changing biological instrument that launches in two weeks, and have simply not yet found the time to contact JVC regarding the geometry problem. I still intend to, and will let everyone know what their response is. SimonHDTV, I may be wrong, but I am presuming that these sets display at 60 Hz, and hence do the 3:2 cadence thing with 1080P 24 sources.

Kevin

After a long wait I finally received the 65" modell, it wasn't easy to carry it all the way up until the last floor, and I have to say there is a huge improvements in the geometry issues in comparasion with the 58" modell but it's not totally corrected. While on the 58" I'd need a straight line between 35-40% of the total tv width to notice the deflection on the affected areas, on the 65" I would need at least 40%. Personally I use the tv also to watch video courses and seminars from the university where you can find plenty of written information and with the 58" was more than annoying watching words going up and down along the screen while on the 65" I only have the bow effect a little upper the center of the screen but less severe than the 58".
I will post geometry pictures from the 58" and 65" modell and I will also get in contact with JVC to hear what they have to say about it.

Davegow...."If I was in the market now I'd definitely be considering a 56 inch F. Prices are great..."

I'm in the market for a 56FH97 display as a 2nd set. (I currently have the 61" version and love it). However, do you have some good SOURCES for pricing? I can't seem to replicate prices I spotted in December ?!

-Phil

Interesting - I had a feeling these were a catch when I ordered mine 4 months ago. Seems the NY blow out prices are history.
There was a small window of time when I managed to move my Z series for 6 bills (I had a good one), add another 6 and end up with an amazing 56 that kills any possible deal I could see for the year.

My calibrator kept talking about the Kuro while he was dialing in my FH. I just smiled and thought about how amazing 4 thousand less looked.

Bump! Anyone get their 65" slim geometry issues corrected to their satisfaction?

Hi. This is Luca and I'm writin from Italy.
I have just bought the 58'' model (HD-58L80U, this is the name of the italian model) and I would like to share my fisrts impressions with you.
I was a little afraid about the geometry issue... but... it's perfect!!!
No distorsions, no bending lines everything is ok. I checked using grid lines and other matierials and I can confirm that the problem seems resolved.
The colours are ok and also he green is good.
I'm really happy with this TV set.
Bye.
Luca

Will JVC ever produce another Pro series D'ILA?

What are the chances of D'ILA still being around come Christmas 2009?

...What are the chances of D'ILA still being around come Christmas 2009?

They're saying nothing so it's only a guess at this point. For what it's worth (hey, you're getting your money's worth, right?) my guess is that they are urgently doing R&D on laser LCoS to see if they think it will fly in tomorrow's market. I doubt that anyone except maybe Samsung sees much of a future in hot-lamp TVs any more.

Paperino67: Congrats on a set with good geometry. I haven't yet had the patience to wait through the holds on the JVC Tech Support line, but my work frenzy is slowing back down, so I'll try and see if they can do anything this week. If it was as simple as a mirror change-out, that would be nice. I only really notice it with 4:3 pillarboxed material, and Direct TV is quickly moving to boost their HD channel count. For movies, our JVC RS-1 projects on a screen that drops down in front of the 65S998.

I bought a Lumagen Vision HDP whose CMS ought to be able to improve the oversaturated colors on both the FP and RP set.

Kevin

This winter, I've been working part-time at a small audio/video retailer that happens to carry JVC products. AFAIK, JVC has stopped production on both the 58" & 65" LCoS RPTV's. We've been unable to order any 65" sets for several weeks and were told last Friday that the 58" TV's are being "closed out" (at a $400 or so discount, I might add:)). Just an FYI, apparently the last generation (FH) sets are still available in the 70" size as well.

Be skiing you,

h2osports

Well, the news can't be that much of a surprise. The trickle of sets coming into the US, along with JVC comments qualifying their commitment to rear projection, probably meant that this news was only a matter of time. Still, geometry aside, these two thin, wall-mountable LCOS sets are great TVs. A withdrawal does make me wonder, though, if I shouldn't talk to Mack and make sure that replacement lamps will be available when I eventually need them. They are a different model than that of the FH series before them.

Impressive - a product owner's thread that fits on one AVS page.

Kevin

Still, geometry aside, these two thin, wall-mountable LCOS sets are great TVs.

Yes, I already own last year's 61" set (61FH97) and I'm thinking about purchasing a 58" set now that they're on "closeout." I'll have to see if I can squeeze one into my "toy" budget!:)

Be skiing you,

h2osports

Good going Luca in Italy.

I see them listed at: [OKurl]http://jvcitalia.it/product.php?catid=0&id=HD-58L80U[/urlOK]
SCART and all:) We don't have SCART here n I'm guessing that's about the only difference.

As Kevin McCarthy above in post #27 pointed out, I too only ever notice a slight warp with 4:3 pillar box material. Otherwise it's perfect in my eyes. Between the respective Aspect control of my Tivo Series 3 and JVC H-DILA LiCOS remote so that I'm never watching anything at 4:3, I don't really get to view much 4:3 pillar box materials anyway. Only happens with in between adverts that broadcast it. lol. So I'm a happy H-DILA LiCOS owner! Only wish that it'd supported 1080p/24Hz too.

Can you say "Blacker Blacks" ;) and in 3 yrs time, I'll just change a bulb and Presto! Just like day 1.

Oh, and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray played on the Sammy Hybrid looks Amazing on it!

The SCART is not the only difference.
The european model has also the Contrast adjustment and it hasn't the 4 Video Status (Standard, Dynamic etc.) but it has 3 Picture Mode (Bright, Standard, Soft), that can be adjusted individually for each connection.
Bye

What happened? Haven't seen any posts on the 65s998 for a long time. I purchased mine a few weeks ago and would like to hear some news about your sets.

Oldwart: Congratulations on your purchase! The reason that you don't see many posts is that as far as I can tell, there are probably less than a hundred of these sets in the US. There are only a handful of AVS posters who have one. I have heard that JVC is exiting rear projection, and may be discontinuing this set, even though I think that it, with a few caveats, is the best RP set out there. I posted about mine this morning:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13679862#post13679862

You might want to buy a spare bulb earlier rather than later.

Kevin

Man, I was getting worried because I didn't see the replacement lamps on their website and realized I needed to put a PK first. PK-CL120U

Kevin,
Less than a hundred? Hard to believe since this is a very fine looking set. For those who are still interested in this set, mine has no geometry problems that I can complain about. The banners on ESPN and other networks are perfectly straight and aligned with the edges of the screen as far as my old eyes can detect. I have looked closely. There is a very slight (2 or 3 mm) inward bowing on the vertical edges of a SD display. I would not have even noticed except that I was looking for it because of the comments in these threads. Maybe we are becomming too critical in certain areas.

How does your set perform on fast motion? One of the reasons I bought this set is that my wife insists on watching the the Lakers on a large screen. To my eyes, the great PQ is somewhat diminished with fast motion. There is a certain "fuzzyness" with moving players and fast pans. I have no way of knowing if it is any worse than any other competitive set. It is worse on SD, of course. I was seriously considering one of the Samsung 120 Hz led sets, thinking that motion artifacts and so on of this nature would be minimized. Comments anyone?

Justified or not, I have been enamored with lcos becaues of what seemed to me to be theoretical superiority. The lamp in my 4 yr old Philips lcos died a few weeks ago. My experience with the Philips is a good and bad story if someone is interested but in the meantime I had to resurect our 27" VEGA Trinitron. I had forgotten how good that PQ was on SD. Anyway, the HD signal to the Philips was obtained OTA with a Sony satellite reciever (SAT-HD200). The ATSC tuner in my JVC is apparently not as sensitive as the HD200. There are a couple of weak stations the HD200 detected easily which the JVC has trouble detecting consistently.

I noticed in this or the "first impressions" thread that the build date on a set that someone recently purchased was Sept 07. Mine is July. My owners manual says that the service terminal is for software updates. This might be a foolish question but is it possible that there are more recent sofware updates? Would have to contact JVC to find out, I guess. What is your build date?

Your FP projector apparently has an even better version of lcos. It doesn't look promising but I hope JVC does'nt give up on RP and migrates some of the good stuff in FP to their RP units.

Do you think that the USA replacement lamp (PK-CL120U) is the same that the european model (PK-CL120E)?
Prices in USA are cheaper, a lot cheaper...
Bye
Luca

mine has a big yellow blob like the reports of the son sxrd

Hi!
I'm Andrew from Russia.
Sorry for my language :-)
I have 58" device. I can't use sevice menu - there is no "sleep timer" button on my remout control, I can take it from user menu only. Can anyone halp me?
Thanks

To access the service menu you need to press Mute and Video Status(i) at the same time while the tv is on.

Thank You very-very much!

I missed your recent post. As to the number extent, the set was very late to market, and never really appeared in any big box stores. Individuals who tried could find one, but I'm not sure if they are still easily available. I haven't noticed motion softening, although I haven't explicitly looked for this. I doubt if any software updates have been released. I'm about to pop upstairs to watch a film on the 100" RS-1 / High Power. For Direct TV, though, we mostly use the 65S998, and like it a lot.

Kevin

Sorry, I need help again...
I have no full picture in HDMI mode, when i try to connect my notebook by DVI-HDMI connector, screen resolution is 1920x1080, there is 1/2" from up and down and 1" from left and right between the end of picture and the end of screen. Component and air mode are OK... Where is the reason?
Sorry for my english again :-(
Thanks...

Ups... I see!
I have understood, it were GF video settings.
Sorry.

does anyone know if there was ever a firmware update or what the most current should be?