I've been playing with my newly acquired Sony A2020 and found something that was rather surprising to me. I am hoping someone can help me understand the relationship between some of the different settings on the tv.

Prior to purchase and during the last few days, I have done a lot of reading here on settings and calibration, well, mostly my head hurts, but some stuff makes sense.

One thing on my set surprised me. The XSRDs have a good reputation for black levels and greyscale, but I couldn't get what I consider good black levels out of the set... until tonight when I started to fiddle with the preset color temperature settings.

Watching Lord of the Rings film 1 where they go through the mines of Moria, in scenes where there were larger areas that (I think) are supposed to be black, it had a redish/purple color... until I started fiddling with the color temp. presets and started flipping back and forth between neutral, warm1 and warm2 (supposedly the closest to 65K). The big surprise to me is that warm2 gave me the closest to black!

neutral gave a bluish cast, warm1 was redish purple, and warm2 is almost black.

So why is it that the color temperature has such an effect on black with the setting with the most red (I think??) giving the best rendition?

The other puzzler is around the gama correction control shadow detail and just how much we are meant to see in dark scenes. If I turn the gama correction on to low, there is a LOT more shadow detail. Of course, a lot of the blacks go grey. Am I seeing 'below black' info that is recorded on the dvd, but not meant to be seen?

I know, I need to pick up one of the fine calibration DVDs mentioned here to get a handle on some of the settings on my set, but the relationship between color temperature and black levels suggests to me that there is much more than meets the eye to calibrating a set.

I can appreciate why there is a need for professional calibrators.

Fred

I've been playing with my newly acquired Sony A2020 and found something that was rather surprising to me. I am hoping someone can help me understand the relationship between some of the different settings on the tv.

Prior to purchase and during the last few days, I have done a lot of reading here on settings and calibration, well, mostly my head hurts, but some stuff makes sense.

One thing on my set surprised me. The XSRDs have a good reputation for black levels and greyscale, but I couldn't get what I consider good black levels out of the set... until tonight when I started to fiddle with the preset color temperature settings.

Watching Lord of the Rings film 1 where they go through the mines of Moria, in scenes where there were larger areas that (I think) are supposed to be black, it had a redish/purple color... until I started fiddling with the color temp. presets and started flipping back and forth between neutral, warm1 and warm2 (supposedly the closest to 65K). The big surprise to me is that warm2 gave me the closest to black!

neutral gave a bluish cast, warm1 was redish purple, and warm2 is almost black.

So why is it that the color temperature has such an effect on black with the setting with the most red (I think??) giving the best rendition?

To answer your question, you have to understand grayscale. To produce a shade of gray, your TV mixes each of its three primary colors (Red, Green, Blue) in a certain amount. If your TV is calibrated correctly, that mixing produces a gray called "D65." D65 is a very specific "gray," and you want everything from the darkest gray to the whitest white to follow D65. Your observations come from the fact that Warm 2 on Sony sets typically gets you the closest to D65 out of the box. The more you go toward "Cool," the more you get a bluish tint because your grayscale is tracking incorrectly. To go a step beyond Warm 2, you need instrumentation to measure your grayscale and set the "White Balance" accordingly.



The other puzzler is around the gama correction control shadow detail and just how much we are meant to see in dark scenes. If I turn the gama correction on to low, there is a LOT more shadow detail. Of course, a lot of the blacks go grey. Am I seeing 'below black' info that is recorded on the dvd, but not meant to be seen?

I know, I need to pick up one of the fine calibration DVDs mentioned here to get a handle on some of the settings on my set, but the relationship between color temperature and black levels suggests to me that there is much more than meets the eye to calibrating a set.

I can appreciate why there is a need for professional calibrators.

Fred

I have never owned an A2020, but the gamma controls on the XBR2 and A3000 are fairly useless. I can't remember if it lowers or raises the low end gamma, but it basically ends up screwing up blacks. If your brightness is set correctly, then you should never see "blacker than black" on your display. If your brightness is too high and your player will pass BTB signals, then you can end up seeing it, but it is difficult to tell with video material what is BTB and what isn't. The best investment you can make is one of the discs mentioned here. A good ISF calibrator can further dial it in from there.

If you want to read some good information on the gamma control and other controls, you can search and find some very good info in the A2000/XBR2/A3000 threads.

So why is it that the color temperature has such an effect on black with the setting with the most red (I think??) giving the best rendition?

The color temp settings change the grayscale. My A2000 (same as A2020) and A3000 SXRDs both have tinted low-grayscale. Generally with black you want the TV to output very little light. I wasn't able to get my A2000 to output as little light as my A3000, so the tint of the low-grayscale was more important on the A2000 than I find issue with on the A3000.


The other puzzler is around the gama correction control shadow detail and just how much we are meant to see in dark scenes. If I turn the gama correction on to low, there is a LOT more shadow detail. Of course, a lot of the blacks go grey. Am I seeing 'below black' info that is recorded on the dvd, but not meant to be seen?

The gamma control increases the light in the middle-grayscale. My A2000 always measured with a too-low gamma and the gamma control only makes that worse. Most likely, leaving the gamma control off will be closest to intended.


I know, I need to pick up one of the fine calibration DVDs mentioned here to get a handle on some of the settings on my set, but the relationship between color temperature and black levels suggests to me that there is much more than meets the eye to calibrating a set.

Certainly using some way to measure light can give a better idea of what the TV is doing.

To produce a shade of gray, your TV mixes each of its three primary colors (Red, Green, Blue) in a certain amount.

Doh, you would think that some of my 2 years of artschool training would have stuck, even if it was more than a year or ten ago. I still remember an excercise where we had to paint a series of color bars in different colors such that in a dark room they looked like one shade of grey (depicting one greyscale value using different colors?).

Warm2 must be boosting something other than red to get it closer to an un-tinted black.

The gamma control increases the light in the middle-grayscale
That would explain why turning gama control on afffected the entire picture from dark to light areas. It seems to have the most effect on the dark areas of the screen though.

What exactly do those gama graphs published in display reviews represent? I always thought it was a representation of how accurate the representation of color intensity was across the color spectrum such that a peak at the bottom end would give a display a 'blue push'.

The color temp settings change the grayscale
So that means that the color temp. presets are adjusting the RGB gain and bias that I see in the white balance setting on the advanced menue?

Hmmm. So, adjusting white balance or changing the color temp. settings adjusts the RGB values evenly across their entire spectrum and gama changes specific frequencies of red, green and blue??

So, if I were to be able to control every aspect of the display, first I would adjust specific frequencies of color to get a completely flat gama graph(what gama control attempts??), and then adjust greyscale to get consistant greyscale values at every point in the image from light to dark? Hmmm. Luma and chroma adjustment repectively?

Sorry if this is repetitive, I tried a number of searches, but things didn't quite seem to match up to the controls on my Sony.

To go a step beyond Warm 2, you need instrumentation to measure your grayscale and set the "White Balance" accordingly.
:(
I figured that from my reading. Unfortunately, my money tree is kinda slow growing right now so it needs time to sprout new bills. ;)

you can search and find some very good info in the A2000/XBR2/A3000 threads.
I've done some searches and found a few nuggets, but (my) searches seem to miss a lot of stuff (context is such a wonderful thing). Right now I am wading through the A2000 tweeks thread thread page by page to see what I can learn, but its a slow process.

I wasn't able to get my A2000 to output as little light as my A3000
Argh, Sony didn't give us Canucks the opportunity to buy this particular model. Guess it wasn't part of their exit strategy...

Thanks gents. With your help, I'll be pining for a colorimeter in no time. :rolleyes:

Fred

What exactly do those gama graphs published in display reviews represent? I always thought it was a representation of how accurate the representation of color intensity was across the color spectrum such that a peak at the bottom end would give a display a 'blue push'.

My A2000 always had a blue/purple tint to the low-grayscale if the mid-grayscale was somewhat even.


So that means that the color temp. presets are adjusting the RGB gain and bias that I see in the white balance setting on the advanced menue?

That's right. The different color temps have different gain and bias settings in the service menu. After this quote though I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Generally the gains and bias controls are all the TV really offers for adjusting grayscale. There are basic gamma controls in the user menu, but on both of my TVs it was best to leave them off. The only thing else the TV offers that can change black are the iris settings. Less light coming from the TV (lower iris) will reduce the chance that you'll notice the low-grayscale tint. Of course different iris settings will also affect how much light the TV produces.

Doh, you would think that some of my 2 years of artschool training would have stuck, even if it was more than a year or ten ago. I still remember an excercise where we had to paint a series of color bars in different colors such that in a dark room they looked like one shade of grey (depicting one greyscale value using different colors?).

Warm2 must be boosting something other than red to get it closer to an un-tinted black.

Warm2 just comes the closest out of the box to mixing the three primaries in the right amount... so it comes the closest to D65.


What exactly do those gama graphs published in display reviews represent? I always thought it was a representation of how accurate the representation of color intensity was across the color spectrum such that a peak at the bottom end would give a display a 'blue push'.

If we are thinking about the same graph, it simply shows the luminance of the display as a function of the input. In other words, it shows how bright the display is for a given input signal. The luminance output is normally a non-linear function of the input. Gamma describes how that curve is shaped.

As alluringreality already pointed out, you may not be able to get your display to track grayscale perfectly, which can lead to tinted grays. It just depends on your display.


So that means that the color temp. presets are adjusting the RGB gain and bias that I see in the white balance setting on the advanced menue?

Yes, as alluringreality explained.

Hmmm. So, adjusting white balance or changing the color temp. settings adjusts the RGB values evenly across their entire spectrum and gama changes specific frequencies of red, green and blue??

Not quite sure what you are saying here, but I don't think it is correct. White balance/color temp simply affects the percentage of each primary used to make "gray." When you have the correct percentage of each, you get the "gray" known as D65.

Gamma simply relates the luminance ("brightness" or "intensity") of the display to the input signal.

So, if I were to be able to control every aspect of the display, first I would adjust specific frequencies of color to get a completely flat gama graph(what gama control attempts??), and then adjust greyscale to get consistant greyscale values at every point in the image from light to dark? Hmmm. Luma and chroma adjustment repectively?

Again, I think you are off a little here, but it takes a while to grasp it. You can't do anything on most displays to "adjust specific frequencies of color." What you can do is adjust the amount (percentage) of each color used to make "gray."

You use gains/bias to set the grayscale so that it tracks D65 for any luminance, all the way from a very dark gray to white. Your gamma should be between 2.2 and 2.5, which does not give a flat graph unless you graph it logarithmically.

Sorry if this is repetitive, I tried a number of searches, but things didn't quite seem to match up to the controls on my Sony.

:(
I figured that from my reading. Unfortunately, my money tree is kinda slow growing right now so it needs time to sprout new bills. ;)


I've done some searches and found a few nuggets, but (my) searches seem to miss a lot of stuff (context is such a wonderful thing). Right now I am wading through the A2000 tweeks thread thread page by page to see what I can learn, but its a slow process.


Argh, Sony didn't give us Canucks the opportunity to buy this particular model. Guess it wasn't part of their exit strategy...

Thanks gents. With your help, I'll be pining for a colorimeter in no time. :rolleyes:

Fred

Just keep reading, it will all fall in place. Take some time to read some of the stickies at the top of this forum, they are all excellent reading. It helps if you have an engineering/math/science background, but you can grasp it even if you don't. Just keep reading and asking:D

OK, thanks. I am mixing up gama with something else. Thats what I get for trying to learn too many things at once. I think I might just forget the linix firewall for now and buy a router. That way I can spend more time playing with my new toy.

I have read a number of stickies, but only so much 'stickies' in the brain when you don't/can't use what you read about.

I watched Pan's Labyrinth tonight with color temp preset on warm3 and the blacks are much better. Not quite black, but much better. The colors seem a little to warm or saturated or something to me, but that may just be my peronal preference.

I need to find DVE or similar and start playing.

Fred

OK, its been a few days and I've made some progress... I think.

Between getting hold of DVE, doing more reading here and waching some Lord of the Rings on my cousins crtrp I have figured out:

- black and white level settingson my set

- color is pretty close out of the box (as far as I can tell with gels). My set has very slight red push and seems to have a green deficit (was surprised by the green).

- Sony xbrs have no CMS so no way to correct the primaries. :(

- I should be seeing a bit more shadow detail on my set

-My blacks should also be more uniform (no tints).

So far I have: turned all the enhancement stuff off, reduced the iris to its minimum setting (this set has LOTS of brightness), moved to an auto greyscale setting much closer to D65, dialed down contrast/picture a bit, turned up brightness a bit and turned down color and tint one tic each (though there are three settings on each where things look about the same through filters). The result is a nicer picture with a little more black detail.

Watching the 'Rings Felowship extras' showed me that the director intended for us to see richer colours in much of the movie. They did a lot of digital color manipulation (very cool software). So what I saw is not from color inacuracies on my set.

I still don't quite understand how I am getting the red tint in some blacks. If the image area is black, that would be a total absense of color, so there should be no color information for the set to reproduce in that area.

Does this mean that when Sony cranked the red, it results in decoder errors such that a total absence of color (black) still translates to an 'above 0' red?

Fred

Greetings

Put up a black and white pattern. If it is still tinted one color or another ... then it has absolutely nothing to do with the color decoder. It is a grayscale issue and should be fixed in the appropriate area. The grayscale area of course. (Preferably with instrumentation)

Regards

That makes sense. I don't recall there being any tints in any of the black & white patterns I pulled up when adjusting brightness and contrast. I will go back and verify, but it dosn't look promising.

Fred