I've had the unit for about one week now. Overall, I'm pretty happy with it's abilities. It is a bit quirky at times, but it seems that that is the case with most HD/BR players.

My one major complaint is that I see digital grain at times. This generally occurs in areas of a monochromatic background.

I've posted here instead of in the "owners" thread because I wanted a thread that speaks to this specific issue.

In addition (and most importantly), is some background grain seen in players such as the BD30 panny and the tosh a35? I'm considering switching out the 5000 for those since the clarity of the image is the most important factor to me.

BTW, I've got the 5000 connected to a 58inch Panny plasma 1080P via HDMI (60 not 24).

Thanks.

Well, mine is hooked to an RS1 and the only grain I have seen is what is clearly film grain. Otherwise it is great.

I do know that my HTPC with combo HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drive looked very similar.

I completely understand your feelings regarding PQ, as I'm the same way. To me, PQ is even more important than the advanced audio codecs. And I know the difference between film grain (which many director's use for a gritty effect), and unwanted video noise that shows up as grain, especially in dark areas of the image.

I do not see unintended grain with either my XA1 or XA2 machines. I began noticing the video grain when watching various Blu ray displays. The noise was usually attributed to the use of the older MPEG codec that was used with earlier Blu Ray titles, but this issue is supposed to be resolved with newer releases that are now being mastered with a more advanced video codec.

I'm also now considering a Panasonic BD-30 player to round out my capabilities, but I plan to test certain BD titles with a BD-30 before committing.

I really wanted to like the 5000. So much so that I ordered two just to make sure I received one as quickly as possible. I even defended the right of people to buy this machine when we were attacked by a couple of posters. Having said that, I no longer own the machine. I returned one and refused delivery on the other. Why? Because I saw the "grain" that Silas and Eurotrance saw but writ large. "Grainy" scenes just seemed so much more noticeable to me. Now bad transfers are a fact of life and many movies are shot to look "grainy". This has been going on for years. But the 5000, in my experience, on my Pio 50" Plasma made the grain look like a mass of undulating ants at times. So I asked myself a few questions:

Was I influenced by the experience of Silas and Eurotrance?
Could I live with the image I was seeing?

Well, I had no basis for making a judgment other than years of watching SD DVD so I went out a bought a Tosh A-35 & a Panasonic BD 30. I ran the same discs in those machines. I immediately liked the images better. The bad frames were still there of course but they didn't "pop" out at me. The images on both machines seemed more stable, more natural. My eyes relaxed and I could just sit back and enjoy the movie without being taken out of the moment.

I'll say this about the 5000....it is quieter, loads more quickly and on well-shot scenes gives the same excellent image as the two players I kept. The GUI is great too.

But in the end I know I made the right decision for me. Also, if you've never heard the advanced codec’s (I hadn't) don't try and rationalize that you can live without them (like I did)....they are that good. I'd suggest getting them asap.

In closing, I think the problem really was there for me and I couldn't live with it.

Does anyone one this thread have had a video processor in the past where they had to dial in the output resolution? If so, does this grain effect on what should be a solid color area look anything like mismatched resolutions?

Hmmn, strange. I have just bought the 5000 and on my Sony SXRD 50" RPTV I do not notice any more monochromatic field noise than is normally endemic to the LCOS chips. I plan to move it down to my big system once my VPL-VW200 PJ arrives (hopefully in time for this weekend) and this system has a Lumagen Radiance scaler so I am curious to see if the 5000 is noisier than my current HDDVD and BR separates.

@ glashub.


I'm thinking of getting the same two players. I just hope that the noise is related to the 5000 and not to my plasma.

cmr, you can always return them but I suggest you do test the different players in your system even if it is a hassle or you'll never rest easy. I see a difference. Since there are a good number of people who don't see the grain, it might be that I received a bad player but I just got tired of the game i.e. will there be updates or not, which Samsung CSR is reporting reliable information, etc.

In a way, glad to see I wasn't imagining things (I knew I wasn't but since so many people think the UP5000's PQ is outstanding...).

OTOH, it sucks, as otherwise I like this player and the navigation problems will most likely be corrected in future firmware updates. The digital grain issue though, I'm not so sure...

I really wanted to like the 5000. So much so that I ordered two just to make sure I received one as quickly as possible. I even defended the right of people to buy this machine when we were attacked by a couple of posters. Having said that, I no longer own the machine. I returned one and refused delivery on the other. Why? Because I saw the "grain" that Silas and Eurotrance saw but writ large. "Grainy" scenes just seemed so much more noticeable to me. Now bad transfers are a fact of life and many movies are shot to look "grainy". This has been going on for years. But the 5000, in my experience, on my Pio 50" Plasma made the grain look like a mass of undulating ants at times. So I asked myself a few questions:

Was I influenced by the experience of Silas and Eurotrance?
Could I live with the image I was seeing?

Well, I had no basis for making a judgment other than years of watching SD DVD so I went out a bought a Tosh A-35 & a Panasonic BD 30. I ran the same discs in those machines. I immediately liked the images better. The bad frames were still there of course but they didn't "pop" out at me. The images on both machines seemed more stable, more natural. My eyes relaxed and I could just sit back and enjoy the movie without being taken out of the moment.

I'll say this about the 5000....it is quieter, loads more quickly and on well-shot scenes gives the same excellent image as the two players I kept. The GUI is great too.

But in the end I know I made the right decision for me. Also, if you've never heard the advanced codec’s (I hadn't) don't try and rationalize that you can live without them (like I did)....they are that good. I'd suggest getting them asap.

In closing, I think the problem really was there for me and I couldn't live with it.

Hi Glashub,

I'm in the same boat as you!! I have been waiting for this player for months and months and while I know that all Hi Def players need some firmware update they still seem to have more working out-of-the-box then the 5000. While I have not seen any video problems I'm most upset that some of the disks I have will not even play, yet on some other 5000's they DO play!! I'm also upset that it won't even bitstream the advanced audio codecs.

I'm also considering the Pany 30 and the Tosh A-35. Can you expand on how you like them vs. the 5000? Also what display do you have. I have the original Sony SXRD 60" XBR1 which is limited to 1080i. Have you run either the Pany or Tosh at 1080i, and if so how does it look? Have you tried a SD DVD with either player and if so how does that stand up to the 5000.

Thanks,
Gerry

Hi Glashub,

I'm in the same boat as you!! I have been waiting for this player for months and months and while I know that all Hi Def players need some firmware update they still seem to have more working out-of-the-box then the 5000. While I have not seen any video problems I'm most upset that some of the disks I have will not even play, yet on some other 5000's they DO play!! I'm also upset that it won't even bitstream the advanced audio codecs.

I'm also considering the Pany 30 and the Tosh A-35. Can you expand on how you like them vs. the 5000? Also what display do you have. I have the original Sony SXRD 60" XBR1 which is limited to 1080i. Have you run either the Pany or Tosh at 1080i, and if so how does it look? Have you tried a SD DVD with either player and if so how does that stand up to the 5000.

Thanks,
GerryYou sound just like me! Right down to the XBR1!
You probably won't get SD to look as good on either of these players.
However, you (we) will probably be less frustrated by the quirky nature of the 5000. I recently bought an Integra 9.8 pre/pro which has the REON chip built in so that is why I am thinking of switching out of the 5000. In fact, I am picking up the BD 30 and the A-35 after work so I will have all THREE of them in my house to play with for the next 30 days...then somethinng will get returned. At least I will have had a chance to review all three players.

I'm returning the 5000 and have the bd30 and a35 on the way. Fingers crossed. :rolleyes:

I do plan on getting an AVR capable of playing the HD codecs so it's nice that they can bitstream them.:D

I think I see grain too! Received the 5000 as a Christmas gift, and hooked it up to my Sharp 46" LCD tv which is 1080p via hdmi. Popped in POTC-Black Pearl, and although overall PQ was great, I started seeing the "grain" in a few scenes. For example take the scene in the beginning, when Elizabeth Swann as a little girl closes her eyes and then opening her eyes as the adult Elizabeth. She's lying on pillows and as she gets up, I can see grain on the pillows...just like ants as mentioned here. I could see grain also in the sails of the ships in prior scenes. Anyone else see this particular effect in this movie?

I'm not sure why I see the grain and others don't. Perhaps it's in part due to my Panny 1080P plasma.

If not for the grain, I was pretty happy with the unit.

if you read the most recent issue of home theatre it says the reason for the grain is because the Reon processor does such a great job of processing the image that you see Many things you would not see with other players because their clarity is just not on par with any player that contains the Reon chip. Also out of the 3 players all of you keep mentioning the samsung is the only player that properly deinterlaces 1080/60p...while the new panasonic does not and the a35 definately does not...this can also be read in the new home theatre issue...

Semp1,

Isn't the reon processor only used up converting SD material?

Isn't the gain problem on native HD?? or everything???

Interestingly, there's a review of the A-35 where they claim that the A-35 fails several tests but looks near HD like when they watched an SD DVD disc - "The HD-A35's upconversion from 480i to 1080p was also compromised. It failed the jaggies and waving flag tests on the HQV Benchmark standard definition DVD, though it did recognize 3/2 pulldown in the 480i source.

But despite its poor performance on these specialized tests, the HD-A35 easily passed the standard definition DVD tests on both Gladiator (chapter 12, the Coliseum "flyover") and Star Trek Insurrection (the haystacks and the pan across the village behind the opening credits). In fact, despite the HD-A35's failure to shine on the HQV DVD tests, the playback from both of these DVDs looked superb, with no obvious artifacts. Gladiator in fact, nearly passed the "looks like HD" test on the 60" Pioneer PDP-6010 plasma display. "

Here's the URL - http://www.ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1107toshibaa35/

So I don't know what to think about tests but to my eyes it and the BD 30 create a cleaner, clearer image with a greater sense of depth. I may be wrong about that but I'm certain I'm right about the graininess I saw.

I have a Pioneer 5060. I can't remember if I ran 1080i but I have them set to 720P right now. Oh yeah, both players remember my settings the 5000 didn't.

Look I still have hopes for a dual format player and when one appears that is pretty straight right out of the box, I'll buy it. I hope it's this year. I didn't buy the Onkyo 805 because I couldn't justify the $799 price tag when I'd rather have a dual format player.

No the Reon Processor has alot more use than the upconversion of SD DVD it is what the player uses to deinterlace 1080/60p and pretty much is the reason why HDDVD's look so much crisper on the XA2 than every other player, just like the scaler in the A3/30/35 the only difference is the Reon chip actually does what it is supposed to do...and by the way if you want a real world test at how horrible a job the A30/35 deinterlace 1080/60p put King Kong on in HD and watch it at 13 minutes and 14 seconds, in the background you will see a tan building with little black flecks and a red awning. Now set it to 1080i look at the tan building again it now has instead of little black fleck very fine lines that are actually bricks...That shows you how horrible a job the A30/35 does with 1080/60p...

I see your point Semp. However, the 5000 grain is really obvious to me. It swirls and calls attentions to itself. I'm fairly certain that I would be more aware of that than not seeing brick lines on a background building.

I also considered that the 5000 could just be so sharp that we are seeing source issues. But ultimately, I don't want to see the mosquitos.

I think I see grain too! Received the 5000 as a Christmas gift, and hooked it up to my Sharp 46" LCD tv which is 1080p via hdmi. Popped in POTC-Black Pearl, and although overall PQ was great, I started seeing the "grain" in a few scenes. For example take the scene in the beginning, when Elizabeth Swann as a little girl closes her eyes and then opening her eyes as the adult Elizabeth. She's lying on pillows and as she gets up, I can see grain on the pillows...just like ants as mentioned here. I could see grain also in the sails of the ships in prior scenes. Anyone else see this particular effect in this movie?

That was the very first movie that I put in. I too was overwhelmed with grain on the openining scenes. So much so that I ejected the disc and immediately went upstairs and put it into a PS3. The grain on the PS3/Sharp 45" LCD combo was identical to what I had on the 5000/Pio plasma combo. I tried out several other discs including the Matrix on the 5000 vs XA2 and saw now issues.

I still haven't tried out Transformers and I still haven't viewed an SD-DVD but I haven't seen anything on the 5000 that the PS3 didin't show me. I also have a BD30 but had it unhooked to watch the 5000. Due to the lack of advanced codecs, I've moved the 5000 to the bedroom until an update comes.

I'm not sure why I see the grain and others don't. Perhaps it's in part due to my Panny 1080P plasma.

If not for the grain, I was pretty happy with the unit.

I think it must be a hit or nmiss thing. I have an FHD1 and didn't see any VQ differences between the 5000 and a PS3 (see comment above). I wonder if there would be any significance found by comparing Serial#'s

Semp1,

Isn't the reon processor only used up converting SD material?

Isn't the gain problem on native HD?? or everything???

I am skeptical that this grain problem is due to the higher performance of the Reon processor. I would think the easiest way to check this would be to output native 1080p24 from the 5000 (which must disable the Reon?) and see if the grain remains. I have been using HDDVD and BR separates, and at least with the latter have been outputting 1080p24 to my Lumagen Radiance processor (which is superior to the reon) without any apparent digital grain. I will try this with the 5000 this weekend.

Simon

That was the very first movie that I put in. I too was overwhelmed with grain on the openining scenes. So much so that I ejected the disc and immediately went upstairs and put it into a PS3. The grain on the PS3/Sharp 45" LCD combo was identical to what I had on the 5000/Pio plasma combo. I tried out several other discs including the Matrix on the 5000 vs XA2 and saw now issues.

I still haven't tried out Transformers and I still haven't viewed an SD-DVD but I haven't seen anything on the 5000 that the PS3 didin't show me. I also have a BD30 but had it unhooked to watch the 5000. Due to the lack of advanced codecs, I've moved the 5000 to the bedroom until an update comes.

Im glad that you confirmed what I saw. Does this mean that the grain in POTC is not really due to the 5000, but its the disc itself? Did you manage to play POTC on your BD30 to see if you can spot the same effect?

it means the movie has grain...just out of curiosity is this your first player???
Because grain is always more apparent in HD than SD it has to with the clarity of the picture.

I'm not sure why I see the grain and others don't. Perhaps it's in part due to my Panny 1080P plasma.

If not for the grain, I was pretty happy with the unit.

Not your plasma's fault at all. I have tried the UP5000 on all my displays (except my plasma) : JVC RS1, Sharp Aquos 46", Sony KDL-70XBR2, and I see the digital grain on all of them.

if you read the most recent issue of home theatre it says the reason for the grain is because the Reon processor does such a great job of processing the image that you see Many things you would not see with other players because their clarity is just not on par with any player that contains the Reon chip. Also out of the 3 players all of you keep mentioning the samsung is the only player that properly deinterlaces 1080/60p...while the new panasonic does not and the a35 definately does not...this can also be read in the new home theatre issue...

I call BS on that one. I have the XA2 and don't see the digital grain (or black pepper) like I see on the UP5000.

if you read the most recent issue of home theatre it says the reason for the grain is because the Reon processor does such a great job of processing the image that you see Many things you would not see with other players because their clarity is just not on par with any player that contains the Reon chip. Also out of the 3 players all of you keep mentioning the samsung is the only player that properly deinterlaces 1080/60p...while the new panasonic does not and the a35 definately does not...this can also be read in the new home theatre issue...

Where did you read this - I do not see a review of the 5000 on their website?

Could this "digital grain" issue be in any way related to the issue the first sammy bd player had with the noise reduction?

And is it accurate to call it grain? Grain and noise are certainly not the same thing. I actually like grain, but digital noise no way. There is a difference.

Is the noise always "black pepper" looking?

I could care less about bitstreaming the audio, pq is what really matters to me foremost.

If Samsung can fix this grain issue, I would buy the 5000 in a year when its a lower price.

Does anyone one this thread have had a video processor in the past where they had to dial in the output resolution? If so, does this grain effect on what should be a solid color area look anything like mismatched resolutions?

could you expand/elaborate on this?

when doing an a/b to an XA1 in the same setup, i could swear that the samsung 5K had some slight overscan...

i should add, though, i'm outputting 1080i60 as my display, while having a 1080p native res, only accepts 1080i...i am also seeing "jaggies" during playback and the menus seem to have this jaggy effect as well, particularly noticed on the menu text ... output from the XA1 at 1080i doesn't exhibit these jaggies and the menus seem much sharper/cleaner.

BenDover,

On my Iscan DVDO HD+ video processor, there is a feature that allows the user to make various adjustments to the output image. Some of these adjustment when viewing a solid gray test pattern will make the pattern have a pattern to it. (rather than being a solid mass of gray).

I was curious if maybe there may be a problem of outputting a resolution that is close enough to be detected by the display, but not precisely on mark....thus causing the graining effect on areas that are suppose to be a solid color.

it means the movie has grain...just out of curiosity is this your first player???
Because grain is always more apparent in HD than SD it has to with the clarity of the picture.

Yes, it's my first BD or hi-def dvd player. I guess I may need to get used to seeing these artifacts more now that I have hi-def!

BenDover,

On my Iscan DVDO HD+ video processor, there is a feature that allows the user to make various adjustments to the output image. Some of these adjustment when viewing a solid gray test pattern will make the pattern have a pattern to it. (rather than being a solid mass of gray).

I was curious if maybe there may be a problem of outputting a resolution that is close enough to be detected by the display, but not precisely on mark....thus causing the graining effect on areas that are suppose to be a solid color.

ok, well then the timing is quite remarkable b/c just last night, not having anything to watch in the time i had left before i had to retire, i opened my DVE HD DVD that had been sitting around for probably a year and was checking out what it had to offer, specifically looking for anything that might help me determine if the unit was somehow messing up 1080i output...well, i was looking for something that might walk me through but this DVE appears to be a bunch of test patterns that requires the user to know what he is doing, which i obviously don't :)

i do recall seeing patterns that had a pattern to them...is there a specific test pattern on the DVE disc that you know of that might allow me to test your theory?

do they make the silicon optix hqv test disc for hd dvd or blu-ray? i recall on sd dvd that it was more of a hold your hand walk through with a bunch of tests...more my speed given the limited amount of time i have to invest in this investigation...

would the fact that the 5K might be overscanning indicate that it is "resizing" the picture and possibly leading to this "grain" ... at least when outputting 1080i ... i didn't see this grain when i had it connected to my pio 50in plasma accepting 1080p24

BenDover,

Good question.

I'm going to have to think on that one and get back with you. The problem is how much overscan are you getting versus how much you're suppose to be getting. ...and isn't HD-DVD DVE recorded as video... so 1080p24 is a no go?

What I saw would be in the black pepper realm. On BD (Descent) the deep colors in the background seemed to undulate.

But again, I'm no videophile and have limited experience with HD.

Can anyone tell me specific titles and scenes where excessive 'grain' appears consistently? I am curious to see whether I see this with the 5000 set to 1080p24 through to my Radiance VP.

BenDover,

Good question.

I'm going to have to think on that one and get back with you. The problem is how much overscan are you getting versus how much you're suppose to be getting. ...and isn't HD-DVD DVE recorded as video... so 1080p24 is a no go?

i didn't use the DVE disc while connected to the plasma at 1080p24...

the only option on DVE i saw was 1080i or 1080p?

my time while connected to the pasma was only examining titles...i think at that point i was comparing transformers and bourne ultimatum.

Ben,

Is that plasma 1080p or 768p?

Ben,

Is that plasma 1080p or 768p?

1080p and accepts 24pfs as well

Pio Elite Pro-FHD1

Can anyone tell me specific titles and scenes where excessive 'grain' appears consistently? I am curious to see whether I see this with the 5000 set to 1080p24 through to my Radiance VP.

Try Pirates of the Caribbean-Black Pearl, and the scene that I talked about in a few posts up above, where I saw the grain in the ship's sails and Elizabeth Swann's pillow.

Try Pirates of the Caribbean-Black Pearl, and the scene that I talked about in a few posts up above, where I saw the grain in the ship's sails and Elizabeth Swann's pillow.
And your saying this grain is totally eliminated when viewing these scenes using another player?

And your saying this grain is totally eliminated when viewing these scenes using another player?

I don't know what he's saying but I do know the difference between film grain that is supposed to be there and digital grain that is NOT supposed to be there. I'm kind of getting tired of people telling the ones who are seeing digital grain (in form of moving black pepper) that what they're seeing is film grain when it's NOT what we're talking about.

I will repeat it again : I have 3 HD DVD players here (an A1, A2 and XA2) and 1 BD player (a PS3). Both my XA2 and PS3 are connected to both a Sony KDL-70XBR2 and a JVC RS1, and my A2 to a Sharp 46" Aquos. I compared all displays and all players with the UP5000 and the same discs. The UP5000 adds digital grain in addition to the film grain compared to all the other players, but only in scenes that already have film grain apparent. If the scene is originally with very little film grain, then there's no digital grain added. If the scene has apparent film grain, then the UP5000 adds digital grain to it, and I can tell the difference between the original film grain and the added black pepper with no problem if looking up close.

At a distance, it almost looks like a scene with a lot of film grain, but if you really get close, you notice the two different types of grain. Clearly, the crawling black dots should not be there in those scenes.

BenDover,

So what we're saying in your situation is that when outputting 1080p24 to a 1080p display, you have no grain. Yet outputting 1080i60 to the same display produces grain?

I bet the amount of overscan varies between 1080p24 and 1080i60.

BenDover,

So what we're saying in your situation is that when outputting 1080p24 to a 1080p display, you have no grain. Yet outputting 1080i60 to the same display produces grain?

I bet the amount of overscan varies between 1080p24 and 1080i60.

i believe so...if i have some time today, i will move the 5K to the pro-fhd1 again and take some pics showing the difference

...and isn't HD-DVD DVE recorded as video... so 1080p24 is a no go?Digital Video Essentials was produced and mastered at 1080p/24, plus additional material at 720p/24 and 720p/60.


Ken Whitcomb

I will repeat it again : I have 3 HD DVD players here (an A1, A2 and XA2) and 1 BD player (a PS3). Both my XA2 and PS3 are connected to both a Sony KDL-70XBR2 and a JVC RS1, and my A2 to a Sharp 46" Aquos. I compared all displays and all players with the UP5000 and the same discs. The UP5000 adds digital grain in addition to the film grain compared to all the other players, but only in scenes that already have film grain apparent. If the scene is originally with very little film grain, then there's no digital grain added. If the scene has apparent film grain, then the UP5000 adds digital grain to it, and I can tell the difference between the original film grain and the added black pepper with no problem if looking up close.



OK....gotcha. I read your posts on the "owner's thread" also.
I guess that's why some owners say they see no digital grain.
You need that original film grain to begin with, otherwise.....
no "pepper" moving around.

My intent is not to side step this discussion of grain/"pepper" but...

I have a Dish Network 622 unit which I have had connected to my Sammy TV via component since the unit arrived...several weeks back, I switched the component to HDMI...I am now seeing grain/"pepper" that I never noticed before.

I don't know if this observation means anything in relation to the BD-UP5000 issue(s), but I thought I'd share it...

I have watched both HDDVD and BR on my 5000 extensively, and I do not see this digital 'grain'. I am outputting 1080p24 from the player which presumably removes all internal processing from the video signal and allows my external VP to do the work. This suggests, at least ancedotally, that it is the reon processor that is doing something wierd. I also have not -- at least not yet -- had any of the playback problems that others have reported. Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer played through perfectly fine. Do not yet have PotC - World's End. From my perspective big thumbs up on this player.

I have watched both HDDVD and BR on my 5000 extensively, and I do not see this digital 'grain'. I am outputting 1080p24 from the player which presumably removes all internal processing from the video signal and allows my external VP to do the work. This suggests, at least ancedotally, that it is the reon processor that is doing something wierd. I also have not -- at least not yet -- had any of the playback problems that others have reported. Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer played through perfectly fine. Do not yet have PotC - World's End. From my perspective big thumbs up on this player.

could you try setting the 5K to 1080i output and see what happens?

i am tracking down an Integra DTC-9.8 and hope to experiment with it at that time, but i would love to know if my theory about grain appearing when the player is outputting 1080i vs. 1080p or 1080p24 holds any water...

Grain aside... (i started the thread)

It's also the little things about this player that miff me. I have to press the play button on the front panel 2 to 3 times to get the unit to close. Sometimes neither that nor the OPEN button work... i have to press the tray in manually to get it started.

It has a hard time reading cd's with ANY scratches. It won't even read certain cd's that are totally clean (Bob Dylan Modern Times).

Half the time, the reverse keys on the remote don't work.

Anyhow, does anyone want to by mine before I send it back to BBFB:). I heard they just jacked up the price:eek:

And your saying this grain is totally eliminated when viewing these scenes using another player?

No, I can't confirm that as I only have one BD player - the 5000, that's why I was asking others to test this using their 5000 or other BD players. I will try using component cables vs my current hdmi cable to see if that makes a difference.

As I posted in the owner's thread, I see no difference between the digital noise/grain on the 360 add-on versus the 500 in Transformers Scene 3.

I am beginning to think that this crawling dots or extra grain (digital noise) issue varies with different HDTV displays. The only grain I see seems to be the natural grain already in the original source movies. I don't see excessive grain in Transformers scene 3 at all. In the movie titled 300, that movie is naturally grainy to begin with in some scenes and I don't think the UP5K is causing the noisey grainy look.

Now here is the kicker, I recall posting somewhere (in the UP5K owner's thread most likely) that I watched scenes from Superman Returns on two different HDTV displays via the component inputs to each HDTV. One was a Sony 34XBR2 CRT HDTV and the other was a brand new Samsung 23" LNT2353H LCD HDTV. Both HDTV's have excellent PQ. However on the Samsung 23" LNT2353H LCD display, I saw more of the grainy digital noise static in the dark areas of scenes whenever there was any grain in the source. I could see them more clearly moving around on the Samsung LCD HDTV. But I do not see them as much on the old Sony 34XBR2 CRT HDTV display. Both PQ look sharp an clear. Chalk it up to sharpness and contrast control settings maybe that brings out the grain more or less depending on what they are set at? Nevetheless PQ was excellent on both sets. Just that one set showed graininess more than the other.

So maybe that is why some are reporting that they see extra grain (crawling dots static) and others don't see it much at all. Different folks with different TV displays and component synergies.

Possibly the HDTV display is responsible for either showing it sharper or smoothing it over to where the graininess is either more obvious or less obvious. All depends on ones display settings.

However on the Samsung 23" LNT2353H LCD display, I saw more of the grainy digital noise static in the dark areas of scenes whenever there was any grain in the source.

I have the previous generation Samsung, also a 23". It does 720p/1080i.

One thing I have noticed, especially with 1080i, is that it has more digital noise then I would like. I've observed this with the XBox 360 w/HD DVD, Toshiba A2, LG BH200, and the Samsung BD-UP5000.

With the Sammy 5000, the menus and movie frame (for 2.35:1 films) have a little more noise then I would like - but I attribute this to the HDTV - not the player. I've been able to reduce the noise with the LG BH200 by manually adjusting the video settings and enabling mosquito noise reduction.

I have come to expect that with this particular HDTV. When I was shopping for it, I wasn't aware of it. In particular I was comparing overscan, and color.

I can also confirm that when the source material has grain, it most noticable - and when it doesn't the picture is clean. A good example is Spider-Man 3.

Interior shots with Aunt Mae have grain. The fight with Sandman in the subway, where it is dark and Sandman discovers water is bad - has no grain.

I am beginning to think that this crawling dots or extra grain (digital noise) issue varies with different HDTV displays. The only grain I see seems to be the natural grain already in the original source movies. I don't see excessive grain in Transformers scene 3 at all. In the movie titled 300, that movie is naturally grainy to begin with in some scenes and I don't think the UP5K is causing the noisey grainy look.

Now here is the kicker, I recall posting somewhere (in the UP5K owner's thread most likely) that I watched scenes from Superman Returns on two different HDTV displays via the component inputs to each HDTV. One was a Sony 34XBR2 CRT HDTV and the other was a brand new Samsung 23" LNT2353H LCD HDTV. Both HDTV's have excellent PQ. However on the Samsung 23" LNT2353H LCD display, I saw more of the grainy digital noise static in the dark areas of scenes whenever there was any grain in the source. I could see them more clearly moving around on the Samsung LCD HDTV. But I do not see them as much on the old Sony 34XBR2 CRT HDTV display. Both PQ look sharp an clear. Chalk it up to sharpness and contrast control settings maybe that brings out the grain more or less depending on what they are set at? Nevetheless PQ was excellent on both sets. Just that one set showed graininess more than the other.

So maybe that is why some are reporting that they see extra grain (crawling dots static) and others don't see it much at all. Different folks with different TV displays and component synergies.

Possibly the HDTV display is responsible for either showing it sharper or smoothing it over to where the graininess is either more obvious or less obvious. All depends on ones display settings.

If all my displays were creating that digital grain, then why don't I see any of it with either my A1, A2, XA2 or PS3 ?

If all my displays were creating that digital grain, then why don't I see any of it with either my A1, A2, XA2 or PS3 ?

The problem is that we're still getting TOTALLY different reports from different people, and as frustrating as it must be for you, from our perspective it's not possible to know how much weight to give any given report.

You, for example, are saying that the those other players are not producing the same effect as the 5000. There are reports from other people, however, that say that even though they DO see the "black pepper" grain, they see the same level of this issue on some of those other players as well (I just read a report that said this about the PS3.)

Given this, I just don't know WHAT to think at this point. All I can say with any certainty is that in my personal experience, while I CAN see this "black pepper" effect, I can NOT say whether or not it's a malfunction. What I'm seeing could still easily be in the source image. This is not to say that it's not necessarily a malfunction -- it's just that without the ability of making direct comparisons, I can't tell if it's unique to the 5000 or not, or if it's in the source or not. For all I know, if I watched an actual film projection of Transformers in a theater, I might see the exact same effect.

Larry

Hi,
Just read a post about changing the sharpness control on the 5000 in HDMI settings to low. I just did that and the graininess is practically gone.
Try it and see what happens.

Marty

Hi,
Just read a post about changing the sharpness control on the 5000 in HDMI settings to low. I just did that and the graininess is practically gone.
Try it and see what happens.

Marty

I saw a similar report to this in the main 5000 thread. That poster, however, stated that they compared "high" to "low," but did not comment on how "off" compared. Do you have any comments on this? What setting were you using before you switched to "Low"?

I'm actually not 100% sure how to interpret the 4 settings, i.e. Off, Low, Medium, and High. My first thought was that the low, med, and high settings all referred to the degree of "added" sharpness this option applied. Given this, and based on the order in which the settings are listed, you'd "think" that the "Off" setting would therefore add NO extra sharpness. Based on these comments, however, it would seem that "low" might be "less sharp" than "Off." Is it possible that the settings are incorrectly labeled, and that the "Off" setting is not actually "Off"? This might start to explain some of the differences in observations on this issue.

I'm curious to hear more feedback on this, and plan to test this when I have a chance. My inclination is always to leave this sort of option "Off" in order to avoid any added artifacts.

Remember that the idea is not to "eliminate grain," but rather to display an image that's as close to the original source as possible. Films have varying degrees of grain, and if the source had grain, the same amount of grain SHOULD be visible on the disc.

Thanks,

Larry

Hi,
Just read a post about changing the sharpness control on the 5000 in HDMI settings to low. I just did that and the graininess is practically gone.
Try it and see what happens.

Marty

When you do that, does the picture turn soft????

Hi,
Just read a post about changing the sharpness control on the 5000 in HDMI settings to low. I just did that and the graininess is practically gone.
Try it and see what happens.

Marty

Ah, that is very interesting. I have the sharpness control at its minimum setting as I find it is completely not necessary with HDM and just adds artifacts (sharpness is useful for SD DVD, though).

I have tried outputting 1080i@60 from the 5000 into my external VP, and although it does not look as good as outputting 1080p@24, I still do not see the digital grain.

Here's the full posting from the "owner's thread"


Originally Posted by texrb
I think I fixed my "grainy" problem or as others have referred it it as "pepper". I set the sharpness under HDMI to low, previously was on high.

Interesting -- I may have an explanation. My theory is this is a code wrap (white pixels becoming black and visa-versa).
"Sharpness" enhancements boost high frequencies. It's possible the boost is causing white to "wrap around" to become black or black to wrap around to white. I've seen this happen if the circuitry/DSP doesn't check for overflow in the calculations.

There are several factors that could combine to cause this wrap: Sharpness, scaling, deinterlacing, dither, ringing on the digitized signal or even MPEG compression/decompression. Dither of +/- 1/2 should always be added to hide the least significant bit especially when reducing the number of bits (12-bit DSP to 10 or 8-bit output). If you're right on the edge, dither could cause the code wrap so moving dots could occur even with a paused image.

Another owner said turning the Sharpness off
softened the picture too much. Using the low setting seemed best
as the post above this says.

I have a suggestion for the noise/grain issue :
Test players with the BD/HD-DVD "Tim Burton's Corpse Bride". This movie has no film grain at all (it's shot with D-SLR Canon eos 1D mkII @100 iso with always the exposure needed). So if you get noise with it on the sammy 5000, it's definitely the player adding noise (digital noise), otherwise, it would mean it's the natural film grain when you see it on other movies (and in this case, I doubt anyone is capable of telling what player is more accurate with grain)

oops : forgot to tell, if you have noise on this disc with every player possible, maybe it's the display ;)

I tried all levels of sharpness in the player, and the black pepper never disappeared. That was actually the 1st thing I tried two weeks ago when I got the player. Also, as I mentioned in the owners' thread, movies that are purely digital in nature do not show the black crawling dots. It's the way the UP5000 handles film grain : no film grain, no digital grain. Film grain, added black crawling dots.

This will be my last post on this subject. As I said a few times already, there is a difference between the normal film grain and that added digital grain : both forms of grain do NOT look the same. Getting close enough to the display, it's easy to see. The digital grain is very sharp black dots (the size of a pixel each), the film grain looks as if it's an integral part of the picture : the first one is not supposed to be there.

I tried all levels of sharpness in the player, and the black pepper never disappeared. That was actually the 1st thing I tried two weeks ago when I got the player. Also, as I mentioned in the owners' thread, movies that are purely digital in nature do not show the black crawling dots. It's the way the UP5000 handles film grain : no film grain, no digital grain. Film grain, added black crawling dots.

This will be my last post on this subject. As I said a few times already, there is a difference between the normal film grain and that added digital grain : both forms of grain do NOT look the same. Getting close enough to the display, it's easy to see. The digital grain is very sharp black dots (the size of a pixel each), the film grain looks as if it's an integral part of the picture : the first one is not supposed to be there.

Could you tell me exactly what scene I should look at in Transformers to see the black crawly dots? (like what chapter or time should I look at?). I want to really check for this but am not sure what is meant by the "snow scene"?

For now I was just checking with FF Return of the Silver Surfer movie since I had it on,
It's interesting I tried changing my Sharpness setting and noticed that the sharpness setting is under the HDMI settings submenu. I am using component 1080i to connect to my display and not HDMI. I wonder if the sharpness setting only changes and affects HDMI output or does it adjust sharpness for all video outputs on this Samsung UP5K?
I tried changing mine from sharpeness = off, to high and saw no noticable difference in PQ on my Sony KD-34XBR2 CRT display.

Could you tell me exactly what scene I should look at in Transformers to see the black crawly dots? (like what chapter or time should I look at?). I want to really check for this but am not sure what is meant by the "snow scene"?

For now I was just checking with FF Return of the Silver Surfer movie since I had it on,
It's interesting I tried changing my Sharpness setting and noticed that the sharpness setting is under the HDMI settings submenu. I am using component 1080i to connect to my display and not HDMI. I wonder if the sharpness setting only changes and affects HDMI output or does it adjust sharpness for all video outputs on this Samsung UP5K?
I tried changing mine from sharpeness = off, to high and saw no noticable difference in PQ on my Sony KD-34XBR2 CRT display.

transformers, ch 3, during the fly over to the ship...

transformers, ch 3, during the fly over to the ship...

Hmmm, Okay. I think that is the scene I've been looking at. Unfortunately my UP5000 player seems to always show a number "3" in its front panel display meaning chapter 3 no matter how many times I hit the skip chapter button. ?:confused: Anyway I see a scene that has a flyover to the ship in an iceberg filled waters with white snow on the ice caps. Is this the scene?
It is at time 09:42 approximately as shown by my player.
I do see some sprinkly dots or noisey graininess on the white snow capped icebergs and theyare glimmering. But it does not look so horribly intrusive on my screen. The scene is so brief and over so quickly, I don't think it bothers me at all now that I see it more precisely. all the other movie scenes are pretty nice and don't have all those crawly dots in the snow scene. I don't know how much is really in the source and how much is caused by UP5K player though as I have no other player to compare against.

Oh, I should add that my player was set with sharpness = high during this observation. I will try it with it off now...

Update: I just viewed the scene with sharpness = off now. I still saw the same crawly dots noise on the white snow caps.
I then tried sharpness = low and saw the same thing. I don't think the sharpness control settings work for component out on this model.
No difference observed with the different sharpness settings. It might only be for HDMI video connections only.?

^Yes, that is likewise what I'm seeing over HDMI with sharpness off. However, the same dots are visible over the 360 add-on (Elite)! This tells me it's a digital artifact problem with regards to how the players process the signal OR it's present in the video feed itself as a compression artifact. These were also visible on a smaller 720p display I own, just less pronounced naturally.

I have a suggestion for the noise/grain issue :
Test players with the BD/HD-DVD "Tim Burton's Corpse Bride". This movie has no film grain at all (it's shot with D-SLR Canon eos 1D mkII @100 iso with always the exposure needed). So if you get noise with it on the sammy 5000, it's definitely the player adding noise (digital noise), otherwise, it would mean it's the natural film grain when you see it on other movies (and in this case, I doubt anyone is capable of telling what player is more accurate with grain)

oops : forgot to tell, if you have noise on this disc with every player possible, maybe it's the display ;)
Corpse Bride was mostly flawless for me, though I do remember seeing some digital noise in the background of one scene. Otherwise perfection. I'll be revisiting the title and comparing it on the 360 add-on in the near future.

On a similar note, I watched "A Scanner Darkly" last night and due to the rotoscope animation, there was no noise to be seen. Only negative was some banding in some of the background hues (i.e. sky).

Hooked up the bd30 and a35 yesterday and .... no digital noise. I'm using a Panny 58 1080p plasma and the hdmi outputs from the units through an Onkyo 875.

So far so good.

Guys,

It's been well over a year since I used DVE to calibrate my TV.

I could swear DVE describes sharpness as something used in the CRT world because the broadcast technology of the time was essentially trash. With the pixel/pixel control in the flat panel display it's an unnecessary evil (we don't need it).

I could swear Kane said to bring sharpness down as low as possible and walk away. If lowering sharpness is having a positive impact then this may be the case.

It's flat panel 101 boys!

Can anyone who used the disk recently confirm?

BG

So, did we establish whether changing the 5000 from 1080p 60fps to 24fps affects the grain? And what about to 1080i....same thing? HDMI or component output.....any difference?

Guys,

It's been well over a year since I used DVE to calibrate my TV.

I could swear DVE describes sharpness as something used in the CRT world because the broadcast technology of the time was essentially trash. With the pixel/pixel control in the flat panel display it's an unnecessary evil (we don't need it).

I could swear Kane said to bring sharpness down as low as possible and walk away. If lowering sharpness is having a positive impact then this may be the case.

It's flat panel 101 boys!

Can anyone who used the disk recently confirm?

BG


I can confirm that's what I see from settings on ISF calibrated sets (including mine). I believe the sharpness on my Sony LCD is down around 25 or 30 (out of 100).

Tostito,

Amazing how quickly I forget stuff... I am getting older. My main theater plasma was ISF calibrated about 6 months ago... Duh.

I would not touch the settings on a calibrated TV. How about the 5000. Have you tested the impact of playing with the players internal sharpness settings?

BG



I can confirm that's what I see from settings on ISF calibrated sets (including mine). I believe the sharpness on my Sony LCD is down around 25 or 30 (out of 100).

Tostito,

Amazing how quickly I forget stuff... I am getting older. My main theater plasma was ISF calibrated about 6 months ago... Duh.

I would not touch the settings on a calibrated TV. How about the 5000. Have you tested the impact of playing with the players internal sharpness settings?

BG

A little bit. I tested it enough to find out that it did about what I expected it to do and that I didn't want to use it. Basically, as I turned it up contrast boundries got sharper and sometimes had that weird halo effect you see when sharpness is too high (test patterns or text show this well). Grainy films got worse as expected. In my case at least, if I want to adjust sharpness I think I'm better off using the TV to do it.

It's very simple. I have no issues with HD DVD movies, Pirates of the C that is supposed to be the best looking BD, has grain, looks like someone turned up the Sharpness to almost full. I'm going to return the 5000 and get the new Denon. too bad because HD DVDs look better