SIM2 just updated its web site. www.sim2.com/frameset_video_enter.php

Coldmachine has discussed the differences between the D80E and the HT380 at length.
: improvement in light path; slight improvement in contrast; beter lens.

On the new SIM2 site, both projs. spec out the same (right down to size and weight) with the following exceptions:

1) 4500:1 contrast for the D80E; 5000:1 contrast for the HT380. (same as before).

2) Vertical lens shift on the D80E is now "half up picture +50%." I assume/hope that the lens shift is variable, which would be a huge plus over the HT380 and other SIM2 projs which have a vertical lens shift of only +/- 6%.

3) I believe it was previously reported that the D80E would not get the new Live Color Management System Software. According to the new SIM2 site, the D80E will get the software. The HT380 gets the new Live Color Management System and Gamma Function software.

If the lens shift is variable, a lot of prospective SIM2 purchasers who could not accomadate the small shift on the HT380 and other SIM2 models, will now have an alternative. The addtion of the color management system to the D80E is a HUGE plus. It may be SIM2's best bargain at this point. I believe $8500 MSRP

Has anyone seen the D80E and HT380 side by side? And...

Lumens output is a lot higher on the HT380.

Richard

SIM2 just updated its web site. www.sim2.com/frameset_video_enter.php

Coldmachine has discussed the differences between the D80E and the HT380 at length.
: improvement in light path; slight improvement in contrast; beter lens.

On the new SIM2 site, both projs. spec out the same (right down to size and weight) with the following exceptions:

1) 4500:1 contrast for the D80E; 5000:1 contrast for the HT380. (same as before).

2) Vertical lens shift on the D80E is now "half up picture +50%." I assume/hope that the lens shift is variable, which would be a huge plus over the HT380 and other SIM2 projs which have a vertical lens shift of only +/- 6%.

3) I believe it was previously reported that the D80E would not get the new Live Color Management System Software. According to the new SIM2 site, the D80E will get the software. The HT380 gets the new Live Color Management System and Gamma Function software.

If the lens shift is variable, a lot of prospective SIM2 purchasers who could not accomadate the small shift on the HT380 and other SIM2 models, will now have an alternative. The addtion of the color management system to the D80E is a HUGE plus. It may be SIM2's best bargain at this point. I believe $8500 MSRP


I would double check the shift range with Sim2 has my HT380 had a pretty decent shift range. I suspect you may find they are very similar despite what the website claims.

I'm not sure about the external CMS software. I thought the "Live color" bit was an existing bit of the internal menu system on some models that allowed you to enter specific color coordinates.

D

Lumens output is a lot higher on the HT380.

Richard

Why ?

D

The vert. shift on the HT380 is +/-6%, not a whole lot. The vert shift on the D80E is +50%, a whole lot, assuming the web site is correct.

I too do not understand why the HT380 should be any brighter than the D80E. They both use the 140W Osram bulb; neither has a high or low setting on the bulb. They should put out the same lumens.

The HT3000E is brighter as it uses a 200W Osram bulb with a high and low setting.

Jason got 608 lumens from the HT380; there is no reason why the D80E should be any different.

As I said, all the specs on the two models, except for contrast, are identical. I wonder why the contrast spec is different, though not by much (4500:1 vs. 5000:1).

As for the Live Color Management software, both the D80E and the HT380 refer to it as "new." The only difference is that the HT380 also has Gamma Function in the new software.

The vert. shift on the HT380 is +/-6%, not a whole lot. The vert shift on the D80E is +50%, a whole lot, assuming the web site is correct.

I too do not understand why the HT380 should be any brighter than the D80E. They both use the 140W Osram bulb; neither has a high or low setting on the bulb. They should put out the same lumens.

The HT3000E is brighter as it uses a 200W Osram bulb with a high and low setting.

Jason got 608 lumens from the HT380; there is no reason why the D80E should be any different.

As I said, all the specs on the two models, except for contrast, are identical. I wonder why the contrast spec is different, though not by much (4500:1 vs. 5000:1).

As for the Live Color Management software, both the D80E and the HT380 refer to it as "new." The only difference is that the HT380 also has Gamma Function in the new software.


Robert

I hear what you're saying but based on my own HT380 the v.shift amount appeared significant as I moved from the extreme stop positions. I no longer the unit so I can't measure it.

Maybe someone from Sim2 could comment and help clear things up ?

D

I too do not understand why the HT380 should be any brighter than the D80E.
Maybe AVSRichard was thinking of the D80, the version without Unishape?

The more I read and think about "Lens Shift: half up picture 50%," the more it sounds to me like a fixed lens shift of 50% of the screen height. I emailed Sim2. Will post.

The setup for the SIM2 HT380 for color n.1 have a option: native - HDTV etc. option 2 for the white is D65 - D75 etc. but like active the option n. 2 ?

Andrea

Good Year

The vert. shift on the HT380 is +/-6%, not a whole lot. The vert shift on the D80E is +50%, a whole lot, assuming the web site is correct.

I believe the HT380 should read +/- 6 degrees, not percent. In practice this should make the two pretty much equal in this regard. I believe the lens shift of the D80e equates to the lens being in a height that's "inside" the image height, i.e. if the image is 3 feet high, starting 3 feet from the ground, the projector would have to be positioned between 3 and 6 feet from the ground.

From memory, I actually think the HT380 has a little less lens shift than this, but not by much.

(BTW, I have a D80e next to me right now, I can certainly confirm that it does have lens shift...)

How does + or - 6 degrees translate into vertical lens shift? Degrees of what, and how does that translate into inches above a 49" high 16:9 screen? Thanks. I'm totally confused.

No need to answer the question. The vertical lens shift is one half the height of the image in either direction

The biggest difference between the D80E and the Sim2 ht380 would be the T1 lens. I saw the 3000e at Cedia and the greatest advantage over every other projector in the show was its breathtaking razor sharpness and thats primarily due to the projection lens and the quality of the dichroic beamsplitter.

If the lens is different on the 30e than go with the 380 because I believe the 380 uses the same optics as the 3000E.

as far as CMS color management for JVC it would be a big deal, for Sim not so much, because Sim gets the color right to begin with.

A lot if you guys talk a lot about DLP ANSI pop and how it makes the image oh so much sharper. Let me give you a number to put this all in context.

If the lens has just 1 percent lateral color after manufacturing which means the red and blue images of pixels hit the screen at different lateral distances from each other as images are formed at different field points, You will get a color blur of 5 full pixels at half field.

Lateral color of the lens will have an order of magnitude effect over image sharpness than increasing Ansi contrast from 300 to 600.

So having different lens can make a huge difference in perceived sharpness regardless of the other specs.

Just did a search. coldmachine says that, inter alia, the HT380 has "vastly better optics" than the D80E. The HT380 uses the same T1 lens that's used in the C3X1080 and HT3000-E.

the D80E is almost twice as bright as the D80.

Thats correct. Its not just the lens that differs, optically. The HT380 uses the core HT optics (obviously) and the D80 and D80e use the Domino optics.

I hope I cleared the confusion regarding "Live Colors Management" and "Live Colors Calibration".

I may have the opportunity to "disassemble" and compare the HT380/D80E over the next few weeks. It will be interesting to compare internal layout, components etc. If it happens I'll post pictures of the internals etc.

I was told my a main UK dealer that the HT3000 used a "superior" lens to "cheaper" HT models but Sim2 told me they are the same. It would be useful to know definitively how different the lens is between the Domino and HT. The D80 model occupied the price point of the HT380 not so long ago and it does make me wonder if Sim2 has used a completely different lens. Afterall there is a significnat different in price betwwen the 3000e and HT380 yet they use the same lens. Also the zoom range on the D80E and T1 lens looks identical.

D

I may have the opportunity to "disassemble" and compare the HT380/D80E over the next few weeks. It will be interesting to compare internal layout, components etc. If it happens I'll post pictures of the internals etc.

I was told my a main UK dealer that the HT3000 used a "superior" lens to "cheaper" HT models but Sim2 told me they are the same. It would be useful to know definitively how different the lens is between the Domino and HT. The D80 model occupied the price point of the HT380 not so long ago and it does make me wonder if Sim2 has used a completely different lens. Afterall there is a significnat different in price betwwen the 3000e and HT380 yet they use the same lens. Also the zoom range on the D80E and T1 lens looks identical.

D

Go for it if you can.

If there is a real difference, it is useful to know. If not, it is always fund to catch a company putting out specs that are designed to obfuscate.

I may have the opportunity to "disassemble" and compare the HT380/D80E over the next few weeks. It will be interesting to compare internal layout, components etc. If it happens I'll post pictures of the internals etc.
Looking forward to that if it comes to fruition. Hopefully you'll also get to look at both projectors running side by side. Interesting as it is to know what's inside the two projectors I guess it's the final results that ultimately justifies the extra cost

Go for it if you can.

If there is a real difference, it is useful to know. If not, it is always fund to catch a company putting out specs that are designed to obfuscate.

I'm just curious about the real differences in the models. I not sure Sim2 are making any confusing claims in their specs. Lets face it it would be difficult to notice a 500:1 difference in CR as basic unit variances could account for such as small difference. :)

Also AFAIK Sim2 don't claim they use a different quailty lens in the D80. In fact when I asked them the direct question they said the difference was the HT380 had more lens options than the Domino not that the lens was better.


We do not have any details as yet of the introduction of DC4 on the 3000E I'm afraid.

The difference between D80 & HT380 is that there are two lens options on the 380, enhanced Brilliant Color which enables full CMS with our new Live Colors Calibration software, which enables full control of primaries & secondry colors.

Our colour wheels RGBCMY
__________________
Regards
Alan Roser
SIM2

D

I not sure Sim2 are making any confusing claims in their specs. D


To me at least, two essentially identical projectors with different specs at very different price points is confusing. Maybe its not confusing at all. :)

In summary, the differences are........T series lenses, HT optical components, better processing and full CMS computability.


Who makes the lens used in the Domino and how does this differ in specification from the T1 ? Also can you define better processing and provide some objective tests that show the difference in an a/b comparison. Once I access to both units I will run the tests and take a closer look at the lens units.

Thanks.

D

I'll jump in...the T series lenses are NOT used in Dominos and that there are no differences between the HT380 lenses and the other T1 and T2 equipped machines.

Also, coldmachine is spot on pertaining to the HT380/D80E differences.

As a personal comment...I prefer the HT380...to me it is a noticeable difference and worth the cost. Again, my opinion. :)

As I said, I expect the company to address the issues in a more detailed fashion. The AVS staff who are familiar with these machines will also confirm these differences. They may also chime in on this to corroborate the points i made regarding these differences.

Hope this helps.

Thanks

Look forward to the detailed response from Sim2. :)

D

I never started this thread to imply that the D80E and HT380 were the same projectors, or that SIM2 was pulling a fast one on us.

I find the suggestion that that is what is going on ludicrous, outrageous, unfair to SIM2, and down right insulting to coldmachine.

How about Marantz? The VP-11S1 and VP-15S1 look the same, except for the chassis color (smart thinking on Marantz's part), and have the EXACT same dimensions and weight. Is anyone claiming that these two projectors are one and the same? No.

Why not? You're doing it now with SIM2 based on the same flimsy, warped logic. The lens LOOK the same, ergo, they are the same. The projs are the SAME size, ergo, they are the same projector.

If you used the same kind of reasoning and applied it accross the board, BenQ, Marantz, SIM2, Planar, InFocus and lord knows how many other companies would be participating in massive consumer fraud.

Get real. The question you should be asking is NOT whether the D80E and the HT380 are the same projector. The question you should be asking is whether the improvement in performance in the HT380 over the D80E warrants the price difference. The same question you ask when comparing any other two projs.

And, in addition to describing the difference in the two projectors, ad nauseum, coldmachine has descibed the performance difference between the two:
"I have used the two back to back, and there is a clear difference. Not night and day, but it's clear. The HT380 is cleaner and sharper."

Get real people. Enough for your SIM2 conspiracy theories. And to cold machine, on behalf of my fellow AVSers who have taken leave of their senses, may I offer their apologies; they won't.

P.S. To SIM2: Give the lenses used in the Domino series a model number like "X1" so it will be clear it's not the T1.

For everyone's info, SIM2 prices went up on Jan. 1. AVS does not yet have the new prices.

More on the stupid issue of whether the D80E and HT380 are the same projectors selling for thousands of dollars difference.

At www.avwow.com, a British dealer, they compared the D80E with the InFocus IN82:

We compared the IN82 to the D80E and the SIM2 was slightly better. However, it took three hours of scene flipping and the difference was not easily noticeable; however it was agreed that on dark scenes the SIM2 was margainally better. The SIM2 is slightly better than the IN82; however to most people it may not be worth the price difference.

I am sure that neither coldmachine nor SIM2 are thrilled by the above comments. The IN82 is, I believe, $3000 less than the D80E before the price increase.

But can you people honestly maintain that the D80E and the HT380 are the same projector after reading that? If the answer is yes, save yourselves tons of money, don't get either SIM2, and get an IF IN82.

How about Marantz? The VP-11S1 and VP-15S1 look the same, except for the chassis color (smart thinking on Marantz's part), and have the EXACT same dimensions and weight. Is anyone claiming that these two projectors are one and the same? No.


They are clearly not the same projector but Greg Rogers, in his review of the 15S1 stated that the 15S1 "provides nearly the same performance as last year’s top-of-the-line VP-11S1 for just half the price."

I am curious if that statement holds true with these two SIM2 projectors.

But can you people honestly maintain that the D80E and the HT380 are the same projector after reading that? If the answer is yes, save yourselves tons of money, don't get either SIM2, and get an IF IN82.

I always keep an open mind re the comments of members on this and other forums. :) I'm not sure anyone is saying there are the same but perhaps they are more alike than unalike. Hopefully if I get to play with both shortly I will be able to see what's the same and what's different.

Having owned the Sim2 HT380 I don't really need to read the opinions of a dealer to know what I see with my own eyes.

D

The basic rule is this: you can have several projectors offering similar performance for say, $5000. Relatively minor improvements in black levels, signal processing,and brightness can increase retail by 100% or more.

Videophiles are willing to shell it out. I'm assuming Marantz sells a fair number of their single-chip DLPs retailing for $20,000 for these reasons (minus the brightness).

TA

Can a D80 be upgraded to a D80E by sending the D80 in for upgrade, or must one purchase the D80E separately? And does one know what the cost to upgrade the D80 would be?

Why do you assume that? I have no vested interest whatsoever. My impending HT construction will probably not be using a Sim2 machine ( he new 2 lamp HT5000 host is only JUST hanging on to a place on the the shortlist). I wish companies would produce superior machines on a regular basis as i would have more toys to buy.

As I said the difference is clear but not night and day. In agreement with Jason, the cost difference was worth it for me. It may not be for others. The D80e is a good low cost alternative to the 380 and provides most of the performance. By the same token the HT380 provides most of the image of my HT5000.

That is a bold statement from Cold Machine and tells me that the 380 is the value leader of the Sim line. when I saw the 3000e at Cedia, what I noticed was that the lens had very little drop off in sharpness across the entire field. Now it could have been that particular lens on that particular day meaning that the projector had optics in it that were statistically better than average but it was impressive. I mean you may buy the projector and get good results but not have the extreme razor sharpness I saw across the field that day.

I would love to know what the lateral color specifications as a percentage distortion were on the T1

That is a bold statement from Cold Machine and tells me that the 380 is the value leader of the Sim line. when I saw the 3000e at Cedia, what I noticed was that the lens had very little drop off in sharpness across the entire field. Now it could have been that particular lens on that particular day meaning that the projector had optics in it that were statistically better than average but it was impressive. I mean you may buy the projector and get good results but not have the extreme razor sharpness I saw across the field that day.

I would love to know what the lateral color specifications as a percentage distortion were on the T1

I posted some shots at extreme close up at image edge with the T1 equiped 380 using torture test software with single pixel lines and also shots from well under and inch showing single pixel focus. Everyone who saw them and commented or pm'd said the geometry, registration and focus was either outstanding or the best they'd ever seen.

I posted some shots at extreme close up at image edge with the T1 equiped 380 using torture test software with single pixel lines and also shots from well under and inch showing single pixel focus. Everyone who saw them and commented or pm'd said the geometry, registration and focus was either outstanding or the best they'd ever seen.

According to Sim2 there are variances from unit to unit. Your appear to have a unit that is at one extreme and I had a unit at the other. If this is a concern for anyone I would suggest seeing your actual unit before purchase. Alternatively use a dealer that will swap the unit even if Sim2 claim it's "in spec".

The other point Sim2 made was that CA on the T1 lens is more than the T2 which may be a consideration for some.

D

I am looking at the HT380. Does it have the latest DLP chip?

I am looking at the HT380. Does it have the latest DLP chip?

If by latest you DC4 then no. It uses the existing DC3. :)

D

If by latest you DC4 then no. It uses the existing DC3. :)

D
I did mean DC4. Does anyone know what the major differences are? I am curious because I am hoping there is not a substantial difference before such a major purchase (for me at least).

I did mean DC4. Does anyone know what the major differences are? I am curious because I am hoping there is not a substantial difference before such a major purchase (for me at least).

The DC4 claims improvments in on/off contrast ratio. I believe the small number of current products using the DC4 claim on/off CR of greater than 10K:1. The HT380 has very good ansi CR but its relatively low on/off is lacking compared to some in lower APL scenes. The DC4 may help improve performance in this area assuming the HT environment allows. :)


D

More on the stupid issue of whether the D80E and HT380 are the same projectors selling for thousands of dollars difference.

At www.avwow.com, a British dealer, they compared the D80E with the InFocus IN82:

We compared the IN82 to the D80E and the SIM2 was slightly better. However, it took three hours of scene flipping and the difference was not easily noticeable; however it was agreed that on dark scenes the SIM2 was margainally better. The SIM2 is slightly better than the IN82; however to most people it may not be worth the price difference.

I am sure that neither coldmachine nor SIM2 are thrilled by the above comments. The IN82 is, I believe, $3000 less than the D80E before the price increase.

But can you people honestly maintain that the D80E and the HT380 are the same projector after reading that? If the answer is yes, save yourselves tons of money, don't get either SIM2, and get an IF IN82.

For $3K less than the D80E, there's the D75. I'm betting it is on parr with the IN82.

NO! The D75 is the same as the D80. IT IS NOT THE E VERSION. The light output from the D75 will be FAR FAR less the the IN82 which is very bright. The D80 can be upgraded to the D80E, which will be at least as bright as the IN82. I do not know if the upgrade is available for the D75, nor the cost of the upgrade. Again, the D75 and D80 are quite dim. The D80E and the D75E (if it exists) are very bright.

IIRC the D75 was a "special" for a customer that fell through and AVS were able to secure a load. It was actually a D80 at a seriously crazy price.

coldmachine

Can the D75 be upgraded to a D75E?

coldmachine

Can the D75 be upgraded to a D75E?

Not sure. You'd need to pm Jason or Alan.

According to Jason, AVS has no D75s left, and an E upgrade was not available for it in any case.

According to Jason, AVS has no D75s left, and an E upgrade was not available for it in any case.

That was a real bargain for a D80. Looks like others thought so too.

According to the dealer that sold me my C3X 1080, the D75 is still available and he said it is the same as the D80 before it was upgraded to D80E. For someone on a budget, I'd have to say that the D75 represents a pretty good value.

Only thing is that the E is a huge upgrade, as it is with the C3Xe and HT3000e.

Pete-

Check with your dealer about upgrading the D75 to a D75E. Jason may have been mistaken. I believe the cost is $1k, and well worth it.

Check with your dealer about upgrading the D75 to a D75E

A great idea if possible, but be careful: I've had an HT-3000 in for the "e" upgrade since Nov. 19, and really don't know when I'll get it back. This is a procedure for those with at least one other projector on hand. ( I do)

Of course, the holidays might have somethin' to do with it . . .

TA

The kits can also be pre ordered.

I posted some shots at extreme close up at image edge with the T1 equiped 380 using torture test software with single pixel lines and also shots from well under and inch showing single pixel focus. Everyone who saw them and commented or pm'd said the geometry, registration and focus was either outstanding or the best they'd ever seen.

If I was not getting headaches from eyestrain , my own very particular problem , from the Sim single chip I have owned for 3 years, I would purchase that 380 in a second.

A great idea if possible, but be careful: I've had an HT-3000 in for the "e" upgrade since Nov. 19, and really don't know when I'll get it back. This is a procedure for those with at least one other projector on hand. ( I do)

Of course, the holidays might have somethin' to do with it . . .

TA


Also something else to consider that suprised me. I do not see RBE with the D80 or 3000 and I'm generally not sensitive to the phenomenon. However, I do see them on the "E" version and I also see them on the HT380 I owned. I don't know why but I speculate that it is due to the increased brighness coupled with changes to the color wheel design. :(

If anyone is intending to upgrade it may be worth checking this is not an problem before hand. :)

D

Also something else to consider that suprised me. I do not see RBE with the D80 or 3000 and I'm generally not sensitive to the phenomenon. However, I do see them on the "E" version and I also see them on the HT380 I owned. I don't know why but I speculate that it is due to the increased brighness coupled with changes to the color wheel design. :(

If anyone is intending to upgrade it may be worth checking this is not an problem before hand. :)

D

This is basic human physiology When the brightness goes up more people will be affected by RBE than would be with a less bright projector. Most people will not be affected at all. The term used is the Flicker frequency the frequency where the image frames fuse in your brain and it is different for different people but always goes up as a function of brightness.

This is basic human physiology When the brightness goes up more people will be affected by RBE than would be with a less bright projector. Most people will not be affected at all. The term used is the Flicker frequency the frequency where the image frames fuse in your brain and it is different for different people but always goes up as a function of brightness.

I'm not sure. There's a scene in Spider Man 3 near the beginning where Goblin Junior chases Peter Parker. During the sequence PP drops a ring and tries to catch it with a web. He fails and the ring spins away. I watched this sequence at 1080p/24 numerous times on a brand new Sim2 3000E about a month ago. Not matter what I did to the lamp setting I always observed RBE when the ring spun away. Interestingly I've just watched the same on a different DLP set in its highest brightness mode (AFAIK the lumens output is in a similar range to the 3000e) and I don't observe RBE even at 5x CW. :confused:

D

I'm not sure. There's a scene in Spider Man 3 near the begining where Goblin Junior chases Peter Parker. During the sequence PP drops a ring and tries to catch it with a web. He fails and the ring spins away. I watched this sequence at 1080p/24 numerous times on a brand new Sim2 3000E about a month ago. Not matter what I did to the lamp setting I always observed RBE when the ring spun away. Interestingly I've just watched the same on a different DLP set in its highest brightness mode (AFAIK the lumens output is in a similar range to the 3000e) and I don't observe RBE even at 5x CW. :confused:

D

Now we have a mystery. maybe there is something about the pulsed lamp which increases the incidence of RBE

Colors shifting/changing tones and increased RBE seem to be some downsides to some of these lamps. Maybe Marantz knew what they were talking about when they elected to pass on them. Just like with dynamic irises, theres always some kind of tradeoff.

Im sure we will see more DLP projectors able to hit similar levels of CR and brightness without pulse lamp technology in the near future.