I bought my Pioneer Pro150FD about 4 weeks ago at Best Buy(got a great price). I was initially thrilled with the TV(major upgrade from my 2 year old 55 inch fujitsu), but after living with the TV for awhile it is starting to appear somewhat dim to my eyes. I was using D-Nice's reference settings. It appears brighter in Standard mode with all the edge enhancements turned on, but I don't like to use the TV with those setting because although it does give the picture more pop, it distorts the picture. I like D-Nice's setting I just wish the TV was just a little brighter.

The good news is that because I bought it at Best Buy during the holidays I have until Jan 31st to return it.

Does anyone have any idea how much brighter the "9th" gen kuros will be. My current plan is to wait for pioneers 2008 CES announcement on January 7th. If they made significant brightness improvements, I will return this TV and wait another 6 to 9 months for the brighter kuro.

I bought my Pioneer Pro150FD about 4 weeks ago at Best Buy(got a great price). I was initially thrilled with the TV(major upgrade from my 2 year old 55 inch fujitsu), but after living with the TV for awhile it is starting to appear somewhat dim to my eyes. I was using D-Nice's reference settings. It appears brighter in Standard mode with all the edge enhancements turned on, but I don't like to use the TV with those setting because although it does give the picture more pop, it distorts the picture. I like D-Nice's setting I just wish the TV was just a little brighter.

The good news is that because I bought it at Best Buy during the holidays I have until Jan 31st to return it.

Does anyone have any idea how much brighter the "9th" gen kuros will be. My current plan is to wait for pioneers 2008 CES announcement on January 7th. If they made significant brightness improvements, I will return this TV and wait another 6 to 9 months for the brighter kuro.

I assume you have simply adjusted the brightness to see if you can get the picture closer to your preference? How about turning off the edge enhancements in Standard? Also make sure you have Power Saving: Off.

I assume you have simply adjusted the brightness to see if you can get the picture closer to your preference? How about turning off the edge enhancements in Standard? Also make sure you have Power Saving: Off.

Yes, Power Saving is set to off and I have turned off edge enhancements in standard mode(I prefer pure). If you turn up brightness too high you wash out the picture.

Yes, Power Saving is set to off and I have turned off edge enhancements in standard mode(I prefer pure). If you turn up brightness too high you wash out the picture.

True, oh well each individual has unique preferences and if it's too dim for you, that's all there is to it. I have the 110FD and find that the contrast control does add more "punch", however, particularly at night, if the contrast is too high it is painful on the eyes. Backlighting will help that and I've never wished for brightness to be much above +1.

Unless you are wedded to Pioneer, there is no reason you can't look at other brands like Sammy for example. I'm sure there is a plasma out there that comes closer to the picture quality ideals you prefer.

I do not think there is any panel in the market today which comes close to PQ of Pioneer Kuros IMO. But I agree completely with you - the Kuros are definitely dimmer than other panels.

If you are OK to wait, brightness of the panel is definitely something Pioneer has to and will work on in the next version. Or may be Panny/Samsung would up the ante in PQ of their next version of panels to match Kuros.

I could not wait for another year and hence went with the 60" Kuro.

But all said and done, in the evening/night viewing with controlled lighting, the panel PQ is stunning. Fortunately (or may be unfortunately), due to work duing day time, my viewing times are almost always only evenings/nights and hence I can live with the dimmer picture.

Rgds

I have measured the 150FD peak light output at 60+ftl with a contrast setting of 42. Reference peak light output for a plasma is 35-40ftl.....which is what my settings are geared towards. If you do not want your set to comply with the standards, there is no need to get your set ISF calibrated and/or my posted settings are useless to you. You are better off using Optimum,Dynamic, or Standard mode at their factory settings.

As a reminder the "brightness" control sets the "black Level". The "contrast" control affects the "white level" or more accurately the "video gain". These are very old carryover terms that have persisted to this day. When an observer refers to a "dimm picture" it usually means that "contrast" or "video gain" are not set high enough or the device is incapable to reproduce those levels. Increasing the "brightness" will bring the blacks up defeating the purpose of the Kuros.

I have measured the 150FD peak light output at 60+ftl with a contrast setting of 42. Reference peak light output for a plasma is 35-40ftl.....which is what my settings are geared towards. If you do not want your set to comply with the standards, there is no need to get your set ISF calibrated and/or my posted settings are useless to you. You are better off using Optimum,Dynamic, or Standard mode at their factory settings.

So there is a reference standard for light output? What is the reference peak output for an LCD? I guess the current problem with plasma's is that they are forced to "dim" themselves as the overall white level rises on the screen. I see this as the only problem, as I still prefer plasma over any other display type.

I don't think optimum and standard mode are that much brighter, I just think the whites are more blue and appear brighter. I had my last display professional calibrated so I know what white should look like.

I think the 50 inch Kuros are brighter than 60 inch.

So there is a reference standard for light output? What is the reference peak output for an LCD?For some reason, LCDs have a more lenient standard of 50ftl. However, most ISF calibrators will still prefer to set them to 35-40ftl.

I had my last display professional calibrated so I know what white should look like.If this is the case, then you should not be complaining about the peak light output of your Kuro as it would match the CRT....unless your calibrator did not calibrate your CRT to reference.

For some reason, LCDs have a more lenient standard of 50ftl. However, most ISF calibrators will still prefer to set them to 35-40ftl.

If this is the case, then you should not be complaining about the peak light output of your Kuro as it would match the CRT....unless your calibrator did not calibrate your CRT to reference.

The display I had calibrated was a 55 inch fujitsu plasma and it was calibrated to reference. Before buying the fujitsu I owned a 42 inch panasonic and I ran in it in vivid mode for 2 years, it was quite an initial shock to watch a calibrated TV after watching a TV in vivid mode for 2 years, but it soon become obvious how much detail was being washed out by all the over saturated colors.

My only complaint is that the display has to "DIM" itself as the white level on the screen rises. Hopefully 10 lumen tech will eliminate that issue, as it will have enough power to keep the light output at a constant level. ( just like an LCD ). Image that, a plasma with LCD brightness, or at least a plasma that can keep a constant luminous level no matter what the screen content.

Turn up the contrast ratio and use User or Standard mode. User actually runs brighter than Movie mode.

If you want an unrealistic bright level/contrast level, go LCD.

The deed is done, the guys from Best Buy just came by and picked up the TV. Overall it really was a good TV, but with 10 Lumen Tech right around the corner, I have decided to wait for that.

The deed is done, the guys from Best Buy just came by and picked up the TV. Overall it really was a good TV, but with 10 Lumen Tech right around the corner, I have decided to wait for that.

2-3 years is not around the corner.

How many of these "not bright enough" threads are there? Geez it is getting old.

Kind of surprising to see these threads at all .. My 5080 is considerably brighter than my Sony XBR960 CRT HDTV.. Sure there's a couple minor issues I have with the 5080 such as slightly inaccurate color's vs. the CRT and not being able to save pictures settings per picture mode / per input like the CRT (at least it saves settings on User mode per input on the 5080) but the last thing on my mind is it being "too dim".

How many of these "not bright enough" threads are there? Geez it is getting old.

As someone who is currently in the buying market, they are also a bit disconcerting. As I look at various models in the stores, I am noticing the same things but have been thinking it was due to store settings. Now I wonder. Perhaps these threads are a SERVICE, as opposed to a nusiance. (?)

Makes me wonder if a lot of the newer models (not just Pio) were designed for the "HOME THEATRE" settings I see in the more upscale homes where I live - the ones where it actually looks like a mini-theatre - no windows, controlled lighting, etc., etc. - as opposed to your average run-o-the-mill living room.

If that's the case, I say: "wonderful". Someone needs to address that market segment.

2-3 years is not around the corner.No, but this gives me some time to recover from the "shock" of purchasing my PRO-150FD last September; before the next greatest display since sliced bread comes along... :D

I'm thinking of an "extreme-contrast," interactive Kuro 1080p PDP in the 70" - 80"+ range. :)

As someone who is currently in the buying market, they are also a bit disconcerting. As I look at various models in the stores, I am noticing the same things but have been thinking it was due to store settings. Now I wonder. Perhaps these threads are a SERVICE, as opposed to a nusiance. (?)

Makes me wonder if a lot of the newer models (not just Pio) were designed for the "HOME THEATRE" settings I see in the more upscale homes where I live - the ones where it actually looks like a mini-theatre - no windows, controlled lighting, etc., etc. - as opposed to your average run-o-the-mill living room.Why would anyone spend nearly $8000 :eek: for a display unless striving for that in-home BIG screen HDTV theater-like experience?

Just the other day I picked up this 19" LCD beauty:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/Magnavox-19MF337B.JPG

@ Sam's Club for only $300. :)

Newb question here. Is it more difficult to produce a bright image with higher resolution (smaller pixels)? Do 720P sets have an advantage here?

2-3 years is not around the corner.

I expect Pioneer to have this technology in 2009.

As someone who is currently in the buying market, they are also a bit disconcerting. As I look at various models in the stores, I am noticing the same things but have been thinking it was due to store settings. Now I wonder. Perhaps these threads are a SERVICE, as opposed to a nusiance. (?)

Makes me wonder if a lot of the newer models (not just Pio) were designed for the "HOME THEATRE" settings I see in the more upscale homes where I live - the ones where it actually looks like a mini-theatre - no windows, controlled lighting, etc., etc. - as opposed to your average run-o-the-mill living room.The Kuros are designed to be the most accurate representation of the current standards that dictate broadcast, film and video standards. Objectively and subjectively it has accomplished this feat better than any flast panel out there (once calibrated to that standard).

The crave for a "brighter" product is a personal preference and has absolutely nothing to do with the Standard that is currently in place.

For those who can care less about seeing a picture based on the standards in place should:

-Probably stay away from the Kuros
-Never get their set ISF calibrated
-More than likely look at the LCD market

Why would anyone spend nearly $8000 :eek: for a display unless striving for that in-home BIG screen HDTV theater-like experience?

Just the other day I picked up this 19" LCD beauty:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/Magnavox-19MF337B.JPG

@ Sam's Club for only $300. :)

That is one beautiful TV! :)

Newb question here. Is it more difficult to produce a bright image with higher resolution (smaller pixels)? Do 720P sets have an advantage here?didn't I just say that? :confused:

"A plasma display panel is a display device having superior visibility and characterized by its thinness, lightness and large display. The plasma display panels are classified into two driving systems, i.e., an AC type and a DC type, and classified into two electric discharge systems, i.e., a surface discharge type and an opposed discharge type. The AC and surface discharge type plasma display panel is becoming a mainstream, because it is suitable for high resolution and is easy to manufacture.

However, brightness and luminous efficiency of plasma display panels remain low, so that current plasma display panels have only approximately 1/3 the luminous efficiency of a CRT, which is popular as a display apparatus. Accordingly, various plasma display panels have been developed for the purpose of high brightness and high efficiency.

In general, the luminous efficiency of the plasma display panel is known to increase as the space (i.e., a discharge gap) between electrodes for generating discharge increases. For example, Japanese Patent Unexamined Publication No. 2000-305516 discloses an example of a plasma display panel having two times higher luminous efficiency by forming a three to five times larger discharge gap than usual. FIG. 8 is a sectional view of a plasma display panel having high luminous efficiency by forming a large discharge gap. The discharge gap between display electrodes 62 (i.e., a pair of bus electrodes 62a and 62b), which are disposed parallel to each other on front substrate 60, is formed larger (e.g., 400 µm to 500 µm). Dielectric layer 65 and protective layer 66 are formed in a manner to cover display electrodes 62. A plurality of parallel data electrodes 74 are disposed on rear substrate 70, and dielectric layer 75 covers both of them. A plurality of barrier ribs are disposed thereon parallel to data electrodes 74, and phosphor layer 77 is formed on a surface of dielectric layer 75 and sides of the barrier rib. Front substrate 60 and rear substrate 70 are faced and stuck to each other in a manner that display electrodes 62 cross over data electrodes 74, and discharge gas is sealed into discharge space therebetween. In the plasma display panel discussed above, when a voltage is applied to display electrodes 62, plasma discharge with high luminous efficiency is generated through the large discharge gap.

However, a size of a pixel is determined by the necessary number of pixels and a screen size of the display device, so that the size of the discharge gap is restricted by the size of the pixel and can not be freely enlarged. For example, in a 42 inch plasma display used for a standard television image receptor, the size of one pixel becomes approximately 1 mm, whereby the size of the discharge gap is restricted to at most approximately 500 µm. In the future, according to high resolution of the plasma display panel, the size of the pixel tends to be smaller, so that the method of increasing luminous efficiency by enlarging the discharge gap will reach the limits. In addition, according to the high resolution, a luminous area of the plasma display panel is reduced, so that deterioration of brightness is anticipated. Therefore, higher brightness and higher efficiency are necessary for high resolution."

That is one beautiful TV! :)Actually, I was surprised @ how good it looks for $300.

I have still been playing around with the settings on my 5010. Try setting the contrast to 34 and the brightness to +2 then go to ESPN and watch the Olympic X games in Aspen Colorado................gorgeous!!!

And I even have my patio blinds open right now with full lighting......

Why would anyone spend nearly $8000 :eek: for a display unless striving for that in-home BIG screen HDTV theater-like experience?

Just the other day I picked up this 19" LCD beauty:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/Magnavox-19MF337B.JPG

@ Sam's Club for only $300. :)

The Kuros are designed to be the most accurate representation of the current standards that dictate broadcast, film and video standards. Objectively and subjectively it has accomplished this feat better than any flast panel out there (once calibrated to that standard).

The crave for a "brighter" product is a personal preference and has absolutely nothing to do with the Standard that is currently in place.

For those who can care less about seeing a picture based on the standards in place should:

-Probably stay away from the Kuros
-Never get their set ISF calibrated
-More than likely look at the LCD market

I agree, and as good as they are now, they are even going to be better next year. I just decided to wait just a LITTLE bit longer. I watch one last movie on it last night called "Underworld: Evolution". That movie looks absolutely incredible on the PRO-150. It really shows off the capabilities of that TV. If you guys own a KURO, you must watch that movie on it. To be honest it wasn't an easy decision to return it, but after hearing all the benefits of the 10 Lumen tech, I decided to wait it out. I really expect Pioneer to deliver in 2009. If I thought it was 2 or 3 year away I would have kept the 150.

I've watched Underworld Evolution at least a dozen times on my 4280. It really does look incredible in HD. All the dark scenes really make the Kuro's shine.

For those who can care less about seeing a picture based on the standards in place should:

-Probably stay away from the Kuros
-Never get their set ISF calibrated
-More than likely look at the LCD market

I'd say that's going a little far. These displays should have no problem providing satisfying images in the vast majority of viewing environments. The problem is that there's really no "reference" setting to satisfy everyone. The 35-40 ft-l light output standard is based on a viewing environment with controlled/dim lighting is it not?

To the OP: If the display looks too dim I'd first simply raise the contrast setting some until it looks more pleasing. Normally, as long as it's not raised past the factory default level whites won't be crushed. You can double check this by looking at the Avia needle pulses pattern or the THX optimizer white blocks patterns to be sure you can still see the distinct gradations of white.

Standard and User modes will provide more punch to the image. Movie mode is dimmer by design.

The Kuros are designed to be the most accurate representation of the current standards that dictate broadcast, film and video standards. Objectively and subjectively it has accomplished this feat better than any flast panel out there (once calibrated to that standard).

The crave for a "brighter" product is a personal preference and has absolutely nothing to do with the Standard that is currently in place.

For those who can care less about seeing a picture based on the standards in place should:

-Probably stay away from the Kuros
-Never get their set ISF calibrated
-More than likely look at the LCD market

I don't CRAVE for anything. I understand how some boost white balance to gain attention. Can’t say that I particularly appreciate your thinly disguised condescension or attitude.

I don't CRAVE for anything. I understand how some boost white balance to gain attention. Can’t say that I particularly appreciate your thinly disguised condescension or attitude.condencending...no
attitude...no
you not liking what i said....yes

You wanting a brighter picture is a personal preference. The only thing I pointed out is that your personal preference has nothing to do with the standards in place. The Kuros are fully capable of meeting the standards for max light output based on viewing conditions (daylight, low light, and no light). Anything above that is truly "personal preference".

I don't CRAVE for anything. I understand how some boost white balance to gain attention. Can’t say that I particularly appreciate your thinly disguised condescension or attitude.What is really amazing, the so-called reference settings make the images rendered by my PRO-150FD look worse, not better. :rolleyes:

What is really amazing, the so-called reference settings make the images rendered by my PRO-150FD look worse, not better. :rolleyes:Based on what i know about you, you could not recognize a correct picture if your life depended on it.

Keep it up old man, you're just making things worse.

These settings are all based on personal preference anyway.
I used D-Nice reference settings and then tweaked them to where I want them. If everyone liked the same thing they would make the plasma/lcd tvs without user settings.

Im sorry but I just dont understand everyone complaining about the brightness or whites on the Pioneer. It is more vibrant and bright than my Sony CRT. I can have the blinds open in my room and the picture still looks fine........the crt has more of a problem with this. I guess people have forgotten where they started.....CRT.

I'd say that's going a little far. These displays should have no problem providing satisfying images in the vast majority of viewing environments. The problem is that there's really no "reference" setting to satisfy everyone. The 35-40 ft-l light output standard is based on a viewing environment with controlled/dim lighting is it not?

To the OP: If the display looks too dim I'd first simply raise the contrast setting some until it looks more pleasing. Normally, as long as it's not raised past the factory default level whites won't be crushed. You can double check this by looking at the Avia needle pulses pattern or the THX optimizer white blocks patterns to be sure you can still see the distinct gradations of white.

Standard and User modes will provide more punch to the image. Movie mode is dimmer by design.

I personally think that alot of members are trying to increase light output on the Kuros by increasing brightness rather than contrast.

Based on what i know about you, you could not recognize a correct picture if your life depended on it.You don't really know anything about me, which is why you cannot appreciate my fine eye for detail. Hence the ability to "build a better box." ;)

Keep it up old man, you're just making things worse.I thought you were in/near my age bracket, but I guess not because life's experience certainly has not taught you very much.

You don't really know anything about me, Keep thinking that;)

I thought you were in/near my age bracket, but I guess not because life's experience certainly has not taught you very much.I'm no where near your age bracket. Consider me a "whipper-snapper".

I have measured the 150FD peak light output at 60+ftl with a contrast setting of 42. Reference peak light output for a plasma is 35-40ftl.....which is what my settings are geared towards. If you do not want your set to comply with the standards, there is no need to get your set ISF calibrated and/or my posted settings are useless to you. You are better off using Optimum,Dynamic, or Standard mode at their factory settings.

I am surprised that the 60 inch 150FD has a higher peak light output than the 50 inch 110FD. The reviewer of the 110FD measured only 14.8 ft-L at full white and 47.8 ft-L small area white...

He also stated that any user selectable gamma curves starts crushing (or limiting) white at around 23 ft-L which is far less than your 35-40 ft-L ref setting. This means that the set MUST be calibrated to ever reach that reference peak output for plasma.

I find that poor factory calibration for a set that costs msrp 6 k (50 inches) or 7.5 k (60 inches) and its easy to understand why those sets look so dim in the stores or at home ... Hopefully ISF calibration is included in that prize!

35-40 ft-L is also not exactly bright (even if its the standard for broadcast...); to put a little perspective into this: a monitor for diagnostic purpose (hospital use) is calibrated to more than 120 ft-L peak white (formerly crt, now lcd) and people look at those all day to search for all kinds of trouble in human bodies

condencending...no
attitude...no
you not liking what i said....yes

You wanting a brighter picture is a personal preference. The only thing I pointed out is that your personal preference has nothing to do with the standards in place. The Kuros are fully capable of meeting the standards for max light output based on viewing conditions (daylight, low light, and no light). Anything above that is truly "personal preference".


Regardless of how many posts you have here, it doesn't allow you to act jerkishly, which is what you are doing to me, and for no reason. AND you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that I wanted a brighter picture, in the sense that I want a something on the brighter side of neutral like you are erroneously implying. Too, it is YOU that is responding in a knee-jerk fashion because you are not hearing what you want - not me.

All I said that was some of the Pioneer (and a few other) sets that I have been seeing lately look a bit on the dark side. This seems not limited to me as many others have mentioned same. I also know that some sets push the white balance to attract attention - some of the Sonys and Samsungs being the major culprits.

I have been watching and critically viewing TV's since the B&W days, so I don't need you telling me what STANDARDS are. One of the other posters said it correctly in that many of these viewing parameters are somewhat subjective. The problem I have with your response is that you seem to label people not seeing things the same as you as WRONG and YES, you did so in a highly condescending way. And, please act within the rules of the forum and do not call me names based on my age, like you did the other poster.

My wife and I went and looked today at several displays and took great care to be as objective as possible in terms of assessing "darkness". We are deciding whether to purchase a Pioneer, or whether there is little enough difference to save a few bills on a Panasonic or a Sony LCD. We thought the Pioneer 5080 WAS TOO DARK. By that I mean that while black levels were deep, there was very little detail in darks and very little shadowing nuance. We have known the guy at BB since he worked in a small B&M shop. He let us use the remote and we adjusted contrast and toyed with brightness in combination. While not a thorough exam, it showed us that by the time we got the overall level to an "acceptable level" to the three of us, the blacks were no longer there and there was still no shadowing detail. If that set is "fully capable of meeting the standards for max light output based on viewing conditions (daylight, low light, and no light)", neither we, nor the salesperson with 25 years experience, were able to achieve such.

When we moved along to the 6010, the difference was marked. There was nice detail in the blacks while the overall picture was at a brightness/contrast level that was pleasing. In comparison, the 52" Sony (WBR5) definitely had a pumped up white balance and was artificially bright (which, contrary to your spurious and incorrect assumption, we find largely displeasing) and the blackest blacks were actually gray. The Panasonic 58" fell between the two and sacrificed a bit of blackness to achieve an otherwise balanced looking display. I can understand why some opt for this tradeoff in the spirit of saving $1500. The Elite 60" was not as much better than the 6010 as we'd have expected, but then it was not in the same lighting and we didn't take the opportunity to adjust settings on that display as it was more than we intend to spend, anyway. I limit my $5K+ per component purchases for my 2-channel audio rig! ;)

Then, we returned home and watched a few HD sources on our 65" HD Mitsubishi rear projector CRT. It has blacks as good or better than the Pioneer plasmas (which had the best blacks in the store), but did not suffer in any way from subdued contrast or an overall sense of being "dim" - in comparison to several of the plasma which did seem dim. As such, I stand by my assertion that some of the new plasma (including the Pioneer 5080) have a dark look which I do not care for in the least. I can see from this site that you have a lot of time and emotion invested in Pioneers and I am sure some appreciate your settings reports a a place to begin, but that don’t get hung up in thinking your favorite can never do wrong. (As an aside, I still have some SUPER vintage, museum quality Pioneer audio pieces). As it is, we will more than likely go with the 6010 because a recent chance in our viewing room dictates a wall mount so that we can maximize floor space without sacrificing screen size.

I am surprised that the 60 inch 150FD has a higher peak light output than the 50 inch 110FD. The reviewer of the 110FD measured only 14.8 ft-L at full white and 47.8 ft-L small area white...Did he supplie the contrast setting for that measured output....I'll aswer it for you, No.

He also stated that any user selectable gamma curves starts crushing (or limiting) white at around 23 ft-L Full screen white or window? I've seen neither.

which is far less than your 35-40 ft-L ref setting. This means that the set MUST be calibrated to ever reach that reference peak output for plasma.Stop skewing the facts. Plasma brightness is measured per a 100% white window not 100% full screen white. This is due to the fact that all plasmas feature a peak limiter that protects the screen from overheating.

I find that poor factory calibration for a set that costs msrp 6 k (50 inches) or 7.5 k (60 inches) and its easy to understand why those sets look so dim in the stores or at home ... Hopefully ISF calibration is included in that prize!You are basing this on what facts? Links please.

35-40 ft-L is also not exactly bright (even if its the standard for broadcast...); to put a little perspective into this: a monitor for diagnostic purpose (hospital use) is calibrated to more than 120 ft-L peak white (formerly crt, now lcd) and people look at those all day to search for all kinds of trouble in human bodiesWhat the hell does this have to do with video standards?

Regardless of how many posts you have here, it doesn't allow you to act jerkishlyif you feel this way, I apologize. Whether you accept that apology, is your choice.
I have been watching and critically viewing TV's since the B&W days, so I don't need you telling me what STANDARDS are.Were you looking at those sets per SMTPE standards?
And, please act within the rules of the forum and do not call me names based on my age, like you did the other poster.What I said to "him there" has nothing to do with you. Please leave it alone as you do not understand the "history".
When we moved along to the 6010, the difference was marked. There was nice detail in the blacks while the overall picture was at a brightness/contrast level that was pleasing.Interesting as the 6010 has a lower max light output than the 5080 series Kuros. I think you saw the "size" effect.
Then, we returned home and watched a few HD sources on our 65" HD Mitsubishi rear projector CRT. It has blacks as good or better than the Pioneer plasmas (which had the best blacks in the store), but did not suffer in any way from subdued contrast or an overall sense of being "dim" How can you come to this conclusion when the lighting environment at the store exponentially brighter that your home environment? Do you have store lighting at your residence. If you want to do a true comparison of any display against your RPTV, bring one home and do a side-by-side comparison.
can see from this site that you have a lot of time and emotion invested in Pioneers and I am sure some appreciate your settings reports a a place to begin, but that don’t get hung up in thinking your favorite can never do wrong.I don't know how you can to this conclusion, but by no means do I defend Pioneer. They Kcuf up just as much as other brands.

I'm no where near your age bracket. Consider me a "whipper-snapper".I guess that's why you take yourself so seriously. Wait another 20 years, gain some perspective & then you will understand that nothing expressed here really matters.

then you will understand that nothing expressed here really matters.Been there done that.

if you feel this way, I apologize. Whether you accept that apology, is your choice.
Were you looking at those sets per SMTPE standards?
What I said to "him there" has nothing to do with you. Please leave it alone as you do not understand the "history".
Interesting as the 6010 has a lower max light output than the 5080 series Kuros. I think you saw the "size" effect.
How can you come to this conclusion when the lighting environment at the store exponentially brighter that your home environment? Do you have store lighting at your residence. If you want to do a true comparison of any display against your RPTV, bring one home and do a side-by-side comparison.
I don't know how you can to this conclusion, but by no means do I defend Pioneer. They Kcuf up just as much as other brands.


There you go assuming again. You are not as omniscient as you may think. You have no clue what the lighting was like where we saw the set, yet you base your assertion on that assumption. FYI, the set was in a separate "high-end" room as part of their Magnolia facade. Nowhere near as bright as my usual home environment - day or night. You would seem to know about a lot of these sets and can state facts about them. Try not stating as fact that which you have no knowledge. I really don’t care to argue with you further as I doubt you’re worth the time. Actually, I had no beef with much of what you were saying to begin with, but I DO take issue when someone ascribes spurious things to me and puts words in my mouth that aren’t there, especially when done in the holier than thou way which a scan of your past posts shows is pretty much your standard MO. You can have the last word though, since it seems to be so very important to you.

I'd like to know what D's qualifications are, that made him the AVSF go-to-guy regarding everything Pioneer. I think he has a help desk job.

For those who can care less about seeing a picture based on the standards in place should:

-Probably stay away from the Kuros
-Never get their set ISF calibrated
-More than likely look at the LCD market

I think I'm leaning that way now. I'd gotten a pretty accurate picture after a few weeks of tweaking and after 150 hours or so on the set but my final/preferred settings added a little more punch.

I think I'm leaning that way now. I'd gotten a pretty accurate picture after a few weeks of tweaking and after 150 hours or so on the set but my final/preferred settings added a little more punch.I guess the engineers @ Pioneer don't know what they're doing? :rolleyes:

BTW... aren't the settings posted @ the top of the "official" Kuro PDP thread derived by an "expert" using "professional" calibration equipment?

I think I'm leaning that way now. I'd gotten a pretty accurate picture after a few weeks of tweaking and after 150 hours or so on the set but my final/preferred settings added a little more punch.

Leaning what way? I don't understand your response.

ewitte, can you post pictures of your display? I know pics usually don't tell the whole picture, but to me every time I see the PRO-150, it has been nothing but lush, beautiful, vibrant and smooth. I can't see how anyone would prefer an LCD over that. In fact, i'm upgrading my 4280 and it's one of the models i'm strongly looking at.

Looked closely at a 6010 yesterday.

I agree fully with the original post,
the sets are dim once you move it out of standard mode.
But, dim is relative to your room brightness.

Still in a light controlled room, the Kuro image is among the best,
if you want brightness the 81 series Samsungs cant be beat for
a combination of amazing black level and options for high brightness.

If you can control your light, the Pioneer image for movies looks the best,
and I think you'll miss your set.

Anyone ever heard of curtains?

Anyone ever heard of curtains?I recall a Not Ready For Prime Time Player named: Jane Curtin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Curtin).

Jane, you ignorant sl@t. :)

Doesn't the Pioneer's have a light sensor to detect room light. What is this sensor for, I thought it would allow you to have two settings, one for day and one for night, and change them automatically. Anyone know?

Doesn't the Pioneer's have a light sensor to detect room light. What is this sensor for, I thought it would allow you to have two settings, one for day and one for night, and change them automatically. Anyone know?The room light detector is primarily used for Optimum mode to make changes on the fly. I can be used for with the other A/V modes, however I do not know of any owner who actually uses it in that fashion.

It is not for any type of "Day/Night" mode.

The room light detector is primarily used for Optimum mode to make changes on the fly. I can be used for with the other A/V modes, however I do not know of any owner who actually uses it in that fashion.

It is not for any type of "Day/Night" mode.


Hey D-nice, this is a little off topic for this thread, but will the new 9g Kuro lineup be anounced some time in Feb? I know the pricing won't be till later this year, but i'm anxious to see what models are going to be offered this upcoming year :)

Did he supplie the contrast setting for that measured output....I'll aswer it for you, No.

The contrast setting (or the NUMBER, not a measurement or value as you call it) has nothing to do with the maximum luminance in this case since the maximum will not go any higher whatever contrast setting you choose - otherwise the publishing of these values is meaningless.

Full screen white or window? I've seen neither.

Just read the review: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/PioneerPRO-110FD.html

Stop skewing the facts. Plasma brightness is measured per a 100% white window not 100% full screen white. This is due to the fact that all plasmas feature a peak limiter that protects the screen from overheating.

So the other reviewer mentioned full white screen (I assume full means 100 %) and NOT window - big difference LoL

I am not skewing anything. Whatever YOU are measuring are YOUR facts, whatever others are measuring (and publishing) are THEIR facts - sorry that you only accept the bright and best panel ever reviews but not others - a personal problem but NOT mine.

You are basing this on what facts? Links please.

See above

What the hell does this have to do with video standards?

That has indeed NOTHING to do with video standards. But maybe the normal public cares less about video standards, they want a nice picture, maybe not a dim picture and maybe NOT a picture the film producer intended because the public may want to see all the details and NOT some cutoff crap in the dark.
Speaking of that - I recently looked at the producer intended dim blue superman movie on the calibrated PRO-110FD. I could care less that the producer intended for me to see a sterile colorless blue movie in the dark, or was it the tvs fault?
To me the movie did not look good. Maybe I am crazy but I prefer a crappy wrong picture in a normal color and normal brightness - like real live looking out the window and not a crappy video standard.

But seems thats NOT the norm, I am NOT supposed to see real live images but a video standard - fine! Maybe that standard comes from a time when tvs had a hard time to produce any great luminance...time for an upgrade?

So STOP defending your holy grail video standard please.....and certain tv sets not able to reach it for that matter.

I any case the same size 50 inch PRO-110FD was measured by somebody else and not you being 32 % DIMMER than the previous generation PRO-FHD1, while this much smaller brightness dropped an astonishing 65 % looking from 45 degrees above and below centerline; compared to only 30 % drop accomplished by the competition which has a much higher brightness to begin with.

You can turn the facts all the way you want, defend your video standard all night and day but dimmer is just dimmmmmmmmmmer and progress should not be dimmmmmmmmmmer but brigher! Why can you not agree with that, whats wrong with that statement?

Why do you think panasonic is trying to introduce a brighter tv than the previous generation - because people like to watch in a cave?
Please don't tell me panasonic needed it - after all the 9th gen panasonic 2 years ago was still brighter that the current gen kuro .... :)

.....

.......
What the hell does this have to do with video standards?

Shall I tell you what the hifi (or audio) standard is?

I am sure you know that! BUT I can assure you that audio equipment fulfilling just that standard might sound TERRIBLE!

On the other hand better than that standard might sound incredible :)

What has that to do with video standards? Nothing, BUT standards are just like that, a house number, a figure, somebodies idea what is good - its like statistics - don't believe in it if you didn't fake it yourself...

speaking of standards. this whole thread is full of posts that do not meet AVS standards: you guys can do much better

Jane, you ignorant sl@t. :)Oh God, I feel old these days.Hey D-nice, this is a little off topic for this thread, but will the new 9g Kuro lineup be anounced some time in Feb? I know the pricing won't be till later this year, but i'm anxious to see what models are going to be offered this upcoming yearI’m not a Royal Highness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HRH), but take a look at "Phil Hinton's" CES 2008 Round Up - Pioneer gives us the star of the show with Contrast Kuro (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688534) @ AVForums (http://www.avforums.com/). He provides a good summary of the 9G Kuro’s.

Oh God, I feel old these days.I’m not a Royal Highness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HRH), but take a look at "Phil Hinton's" CES 2008 Round Up - Pioneer gives us the star of the show with Contrast Kuro (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688534) @ AVForums (http://www.avforums.com/). He provides a good summary of the 9G Kuro’s.

I had read that article. It looks like the 2008 Pioneers should contain a lot of major technical improvements. I must be missing something; what is your "Royal Highness" link about? What is the connection to the thread topic?

speaking of standards. this whole thread is full of posts that do not meet AVS standards: you guys can do much better

No kidding. Most of us come here to learn about our plasma displays, not to be unwilling bystanders to anti-product rants, one-upmanship and the public working out of passive-aggressive problems.

This is a great forum, but it could be even better if egos were checked at the door.