I am moments away from phoning the bank to see if I can afford a new Sim2 C3X1080p yet - It's replacing my aging but faultless Sony G70 CRT.

After reading every possible thread I can find on this awesome new SIM2 and seeing an impressive demo in a London dealership I now see a problem regaring my desired CIH setup:

My plan is to install it in a 7.5m long completely light controlled room - installation can be anywhere in that space. Seating will be between 4 and 6m away from the screen which will be cinemascope ratio (2.4:1 or 2.35:1) masking down to 16:9 - all OK so far... Screen size is probably going to be about 10.5 feet across for cinemascope.

I don't want to use an add-on lens like an ISCO 3 or similar - mostly because they are very expensive here in the UK but also because my wife hates how they look and the complexity they bring to using the system...
Instead we plan to use the Sim2's zoom lens to zoom in/out to fill the screen... Something I've seen done well on a Sony SXRD system.

BUT - I now see that the zoom lens throw ratios for the Sim2 T1 lens have changed since the 720p model: they are now insufficient on the 1080 to bring a 22:9 ratio image down to a 16:9 image of the same height - can anybody confirm this?

I'd also love to know if the alternative T2 longer throw lens can really do CIH this way either (the maths is VERY tight) - I've read plenty of threads warning owners to keep away from the limits of zoom to avoid problems...

My local dealer can only suggest an ISCO III with cineslide -

So can I please humbly ask 2 questions:

1. Can the T1 or T2 lens version of the C3x1080 perform CIH zoom requirements without a 3rd party add-on lens?

2. Can anyone tell me if this awesome projector has powered zoom and focus controls to make CIH use easier? Does it have memory settings for zoom and focus? This would be lots easier than manually having to re-zoom and focus.

Many thanks to everyone at AVS and all the enthusiasts that make this forum such a delight to read.

BiggerPicture

The C3X 1080 does Not have memory settings for powered zoom and focus. It does have power zoom and focus.

I do not know what zoom requirements you speak of with regard to point # 1.

I don't want to use an add-on lens like an ISCO 3 or similar - mostly because they are very expensive here in the UK but also because my wife hates how they look and the complexity they bring to using the system...
Expense I won't argue with and looks is personal, though personally when mounted properly with a classy mount I think they look cool. However your last statement IMO could not be further from the truth. They don't bring complexity to the system, just the opposite, they remove it to the greatest degree possible (though sadly not totally since DVD players cannot output AR information). I can't even imagine trying to get anyone to constantly refocus and zoom except for an UBER geek, not to mention dealing with the fact that the image will not be centered. If your wife is like most and you want to make sure she HATES the system by making it difficult to use to the point of being unusable, you are on the correct path :). My 2 cents.

p.s. Before someone debates me about the virtues of zooming versus using an anamorphic lens, I did not say there is anything wrong with zooming...as long as you are OK with your wife hating the system :). YMMV

Thanks for the thoughts QQQ - Money for an ISCO3 etc is a deal-breaker for me - it's £20,000 UKP for the projector alone and that's as far as my budget can stretch...

Thanks for confirming about the lack of power zoom and focus - does this mean that focus and zoom is done by physically twisting the lens body? I'd expected that it would be done from the remote control at least...

Regarding the zoom requirements, the math is as follows:

Zoom range for T1 is quoted at 1.37 to 1.66 -

So (for example) for a 3m wide (10ft) screen 22:9 ratio with a CIH of 2.18 metres = 4.11m throw from lens to screen at widest possible zoom setting...

In the same position, at the narrowest zoom setting for the same projector / screen location the image is too tall for 16:9 - over a foot too tall... the zoom range would need to be a minimum of 1.37 to 1.89 to do Zoom type CIH...

If I'm right then the zoom method is impossible on the C3x 1080

:(

BiggerPicture

The C3X 1080 does Not have memory settings for powered zoom and focus. It does not have power zoom and focus.

I can confirm that. I am currently test driving a C3X 1080p for a customer who is going to pick it up in a couple of days.

It has a 1.7-2.6 throw ratio which might be just enough to increase the screen width by 33% (which is necessary for constant height 21:9). But I would not rely on the pure math here (it's a very close call if you crunch the numbers).

However, I'd also strongly recommend an anamorphic lense for the C3X. I am actually using one myself at the moment and it really makes sense for the high end quality we are talking about here. It's just a sin to waste 30% of the C3X's panel when watching cinemascope ;)

I admit there are better looking setups. SIM2 actually offers a motorized sled with an ISCO lense to make the installation and handling easier.

The 3cx1080p does have power zoom and focus. It does not have powered vertical offset.

The 3cx1080p does have power zoom and focus. It does not have powered vertical offset.

It depends what you mean by power zoom and focus. It has motorized zoom and focus, but it is rather slow. It is much more efficient and faster to use an ISCO lense.

In terms of complexity, there is none with a Cineslide and ISCO III.

My Cineslide is completely controlled by triggers, as soon as a scope aspect is selected by IR remote, the trigger is activated and moves the lens into place. If any other non-scope aspect is selected, the lens moves out automatically. It is more simple (and faster) than zooming. Completely idiot proof.

For the advantage of a CIH set up, I'd recommend the Lens / Slide + a less expensive projector. Many less expensive PJs can light up a 10 ft wide screen.

The advantage of an anamorphic lens and Cineslide, to me, trumps a better projector that requires the cumbersome process of zooming.

If the lens has a 1.7-2.6 throw ratio, that is enough zoom for CIH.

If you want a cheaper anamorphic lens solution, consider the panamorph UH380. It offers similar performance to the ISCO 3 for a fraction of the cost. The optoma branded UH380 and motorized slide can be had for very cheap... I believe around 1/3 of the price of an ISCO 3 and cineslide.

God. I can't stand this nonsense particularly from dealers.

The lens does have powered zoom and focus. Powered means motorized. Come on!


Second with the T2 lens the zoom ratio is 1.75 to 2.4. This has been confirmed by the techs at Sim2 USA. It just takes Sim2 an eternity to put the knowledge they gain into revised price sheets which show the correct zoom ranges and of course the product spec sheets.

Finally, the vertical lens shift is not motorized. When the lens is zoomed the picture will move up or down depending whether the mounting is table top or shelf or whether inverted for a ceiling mount and whether the zoom is out or in. Needless to say the vertical lens shift will need manual readjustment when you zoom. It is a rather crude feeling rod with a number protruding from the top of the projector. So if the projector is hung from the ceiling, one would have to reach up and play with it. The adjustment works but it just doesn't feel all that precise because of Ii think the flexibility in the rod.

SCOs and other lens of this type are another story. people who own them become very very biased just like most people who get anything HT related. DO WHAT IDO. Its great.

ISCOs and such have drawbacks. While they allow one to employ a varticalelectronic stetch to use an entire 16x9 chip to display 2.35, the scaling needed is 13/10 and causes pixel distortion.the ISCO eats light, the ISCO causes a complete loss of focus depth of field yada yada. One has pin cushioning to deal with as well. A curved screen helps to keep things in focus and tp reduce pincushioning but because of non custimation on the screen curve to the particular projector and lens is a bandaid rather than a cure.

On balance, if you insist on constant height, the ISCO is probably a better solution than a zoom but still one must choose the poison.

BiggerPicture,

This is how the sentence in my first post (which I have now edited) was supposed to read. Sorry about that, somehow I ended up with a "not" in the second sentence when it was only supposed to be in the first sentence.
The C3X 1080 does Not have memory settings for powered zoom and focus. It does have power zoom and focus.
I certainly understand regarding the Isco pricing. I'd also consider a Panamorph lens if possible though I have not used one myself. As another poster said, the C3X 1080 does not have motorized lens shift, that is adjusted with a knob on the top (or "bottom" if ceiling mounted) of the projector.

Otherwise I would make a different choice somewhere in the chain, but again that makes assumptions based on my own experiences about what is user friendly, and what the "normal" wife is willing to tolerate :). I just can't imagine having to constantly rezoom and refocus. Then again we are a bit spoiled here in the States :).

ISCOs and such have drawbacks. While they allow one to employ a varticalelectronic stetch to use an entire 16x9 chip to display 2.35, the scaling needed is 13/10 and causes pixel distortion.
:rolleyes:

That's a Joe Kane quote QQQ. OK on your typo.:) Ii generally make them more often than you do. :)

Many many thanks people - you've helped me enormously.

So a T2 lens can do it - but with the need for refocusing/rezooming/manual vertical offset each time.

A lens may well be the lesser-of-two-evils *when* I can afford to add one...

A small extra question I'd love to ask...

For a T2 lensed 1080 - how far will the image move up/down the screen between the extreme ends of the zoom? I'd ideally like the projector shelf mounted upside down exactly in line with the top of the screen (50% offset I think)

Am I correct in thinking that the top of the 16:9 frame remains level with the lens, and the bottom of the image moves up and down as it zooms?

BiggerPicture.

So a T2 lens can do it - but with the need for refocusing/rezooming/manual vertical offset each time.

Yes, but be aware that it is a very close call, you have to do it by the inch!

How about getting some support from the dealer where you are going to buy this high end gear? Service like that should be included ... I'd try it out with an ISCO lense and see whether it works for me if I was in your shoes.

Good luck!

OK I tried to go with the zoom method that you were talking about with my RS2, but unfortunately, it only worked when the lens was centered with the screen. Big bummer. After much research and deliberation, I went with the Panamorph/Sled combination. Total cost for that was $2820 USD (Including the overpriced metal plate for mounting).

With this, I don't have to change zoom or focus. Only have to switch to the VStretch mode on the projector when the lens slides into place. I haven't received the Panamorph yet, but it seemed to be the most simple approach. I will program my remote to take care of the change with one button push.

Good luck with whatever you do.

Thanks to everybody for the help here - I'm going to get the C3X first and enjoy it whilst saving up for the add-on lens - I can also pre-warn wifey that my crackpot zoom method has some flaws that a lens would fix...

BiggerPicture

The C3X might work with the zoom method. I was going to make mine work with the RS2, but eventually caved.

That Panamorph deal going on here is really good. You may want to see if they will ship it to you.

Keep in mind you can always just buy the ISCOIII lens and NOT the Cineslide. I'm not using the Cineslide and can't justify the expense. The internal processing of the C3X will do a great job scaling the image to 16x9 with the lens in place. Even with a decently large screen (mine is 11'), the 16x9 image looks incredibly detailed and the light output doesn't change between aspect ratios (which is a plus imo).

Keep in mind you can always just buy the ISCOIII lens and NOT the Cineslide. I'm not using the Cineslide and can't justify the expense. The internal processing of the C3X will do a great job scaling the image to 16x9 with the lens in place. Even with a decently large screen (mine is 11'), the 16x9 image looks incredibly detailed and the light output doesn't change between aspect ratios (which is a plus imo).
This is a great point, and what I would do in order to strike a happy medium between performance and ease of use.

one thing to consider if you are zooming is that you can move where the image is displayed within the panel vs. the physically adjusting the vertical offset. This is the once case where the black bars come in handy. Depending on scaler/pj options this can easily be automated.

Although not as sexy as CIH, there is always the alternative of Constant Area - which would require less zoom. I feel that I don't really have the room (or zoom range) for CIH in my current setup and find CA a decent alternative. It still allows for the widescreen experience while (in my case) providing a reasonable 16:9 image size.

I'm now heavily leaning towards the ISCO3 option - but have a question (yes I know - ANOTHER question!)

If I understand it right the C3X stretches the image from 16:9 to a wider 22:9 shape (Horizontal Stretch)

Can the ISCO 3 fitted to a C3X1080 work on the wider-angle T1 lens? or only on the T2 at the far end of the zoom range? If it can work on a T1 at perhaps mid-zoom-range then that should work superbly for my room....

Also thanks to Ian Currie for that tip regarding the internal processor for a fixed ISCO3 - as an alternative could I mark up the exact position that the ISCO stands in front of the projector and just lift it into place to use it?

BiggerPicture

Yes, you can mark the exact position of the ISCO and simply (manually) move it out of the way. This way you always have the choice - move it out of the way when you're going to watch a full film, or use the internal processor to do 16x9 when you're watching casually, or need to see the full height of the image (e.g. disc menu, etc).

This is what I planned to do, but was so impressed with the scaling solution that most of the time I don't bother (but like knowing I can). Again, this assumes a shelf mount where you have easy access to remove the lens - if you ceiling mount this isn't practical.

Thanks Ian - that's probably my best bet if I can $tretch to the cost - are you using your ISCO on a T1 or T2 lensed monster?

BiggerPicture

I'd rig some sort of slide for the Isco if I were using it. I keep planning to make a less expensive "manual" mount assembly, I have the parts sitting on my bench, but never get around to wrapping it up :(. Pickup some used linear bearings of of Ebay and build a DIY mount plate. Or some high end, heavy duty drawer slides have been used by some. But to get the most out of the unit, don't down-scale the 16x9 material so it will "fit" wnen sent through a lens., move the lens.