I have a relatively small media room, it's about 14' side wall to side wall, and 11.5' front wall to back wall. Because of this, I have only 2 real options to place my subwoofer (SVS PB12NSD). One spot is next to my couch on the right side, basically next to the listener with woofer facing forward, there may be enough room to turn it sideways to have the woofer facing the listener as well, though this may be difficult. Whether facing forward or sideways, this would place the sub close to the surround (in front of it). The surrounds are in a side position next to the listener and slightly toed in (if this is any help). The other option is up front behind the right front speaker and in a corner. This may be tough as well as it requires moving a bookshelf, but it can be done. Like I said, the room is small, and this is what I have to work with. The easiest thing for me would be the first option, and if it's workable it would be sweet. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

The key question is: What crossover will you use? If you can crossover to your mains at 80 Hz or lower, the position beside the couch will be fine. If you need to crossover higher than 80 Hz, the front corner position will be preferable.

Why 80 Hz? Because sub's start to become "localizable" at about 80 Hz and above. "Localizable" means that you will start to hear sounds "originate" from the sub. For example, deep male voices and the low to mid-bass sounds of explosions, gunshots, etc. will sound like they are coming from the sub. If it's placed next to you, this will be very distracting. If it's up front, it will be less problematic.

What main speakers are you using, and what crossover point will you use?

Craig

The key question is: What crossover will you use? If you can crossover to your mains at 80 Hz or lower, the position beside the couch will be fine. If you need to crossover higher than 80 Hz, the front corner position will be preferable.

Why 80 Hz? Because sub's start to become "localizable" at about 80 Hz and above. "Localizable" means that you will start to hear sounds "originate" from the sub. For example, deep male voices and the low to mid-bass sounds of explosions, gunshots, etc. will sound like they are coming from the sub. If it's placed next to you, this will be very distracting. If it's up front, it will be less problematic.

What main speakers are you using, and what crossover point will you use?

Craig

Thanks for the response Craig. I am using Infinity Alpha 50's front, Alpha 37c center, and Primus 150's for surround. I was thinking about crossing over between 60-80 hz. The Alpha 50's can go down to 35 hz, and I believe the Primus can do 55hz. I currently have the crossover set at 70hz. I just ordered the sub yesterday, and I'm really excited. Will it be overkill in my small room?

It will be more than you "need", but there is no such thing as "overkill" when talking about subwoofers.

"subwoofer overkill" = oxymoron = "jumbo shrimp"

:D:D:D

Craig

It will be more than you "need", but there is no such thing as "overkill" when talking about subwoofers.

"subwoofer overkill" = oxymoron = "jumbo shrimp"

:D:D:D

Craig

Now that is what I want to hear:D So the placement beside the couch is fine for my setup and speakers? I would imagine so, my mains go down pretty low. Thanks again.

Now that is what I want to hear:D So the placement beside the couch is fine for my setup and speakers? I would imagine so, my mains go down pretty low. Thanks again.
Yup, should be fine. However, if you can localize it at all, try a lower crossover, say 60 Hz.

Craig

I'm still pretty new to all of this Craig, what do you mean by localize? Also, I don't have a SPL meter, so I'm going to have to do this setup by ear. My receiver channel levels are for the center, sub, and surround only. The only thing available for the fronts is balance. The level controls go from -10db to +10 db for the channels. I currently have it set to -1db center, and -2db for the surrounds. I was thinking that something like 0db or +1db for the sub would be good.

Would anyone else like to chime in? Opinions are always welcome.

I'm still pretty new to all of this Craig, what do you mean by localize?.

"Localize" essentially means you can hear where your subwoofer is located in the room.

"Localize" essentially means you can hear where your subwoofer is located in the room.

Ah, I got ya. So if I keep my crossover low enough, this shouldn't be a problem?

This might not sound too helpful, as it's a pretty obvious way to think about it, but obviously I'd try the preferred, easier subwoofer position first. After tinkering with crossover, gain, phase, etc, if you cannot make the PB12 integrate well with your system, it's time to move the bookshelf. I know it can be a pain, but subwoofer placement is crucial for obtaining good, accurate frequency response. It's difficult to recommend a placement for you, since we haven't seen your room and don't know its acoustics. Every room affects a subwoofer's response substantially. Along with subwoofer placement, gain setting, and phase setting, your room's dimensions and acoustic "liveliness" will affect it as well.

Anyway, since you only have two possible placement options, and one is significantly easier to implement, I'd obviously go with that one first. If it isn't too much work, I'd really try both before settling on one. You might think your frequency response is great in the first position, only to put it in the second and realize it's much better. I too have a small room (11x10x8) with only two possible subwoofer placement options for my PB10-NSD. The room has the TV angled in the corner. One option is behind the TV, the other option is behind the listening position in the back corner. The rear position was far easier to access, and I had the PB10 there for quite a while. However, I've found the rear position to be too localizable, regardless of my crossover settings, so my PB10 needed to be placed in the front corner. It was a pain, but I enjoy the PB10 much more now. Sorry to post so long, but the moral of the story is to try both options and see which you prefer. It might be time consuming, but the rewards are well worth it, IMO. Good luck, and congrats on your new SVS purchase! That PB12-NSD will rock that room! I myself have a second PB10-NSD on the way, and can't wait.

Stephen

Ah, I got ya. So if I keep my crossover low enough, this shouldn't be a problem?

Crossing over your subwoofer low should help reduce the perceivable directionality of the subwoofer, but I still could tell where some bass was coming from with the subwoofer placed nearfield behind my listening position, even crossed over at 50hz, and found it distracting. You'll have to judge for yourself. The other downside of using a low crossover is that it puts a lot more strain on your other speakers, which will need to cover the upper bass frequencies that the subwoofer is not. While your speakers are rated to get well below 50hz, low extension takes a lot of power. This should become apparent to you when you think about the power ratings of your amplifier. The PB12-NSD has a 325w RMS amp, and the sub only covers from around 15hz-80hz. In comparison, many receivers have about 100w per channel, and these channels are asked to cover from the crossover all the way to 20,000hz! Obviously, low frequency sound reproduction takes the most power. Anyway, if your amplifier is not up to the task, you may find that your speakers begin to sound a bit "restricted" in the midrange and treble frequencies. They might also start to run out of gas if you listen at higher volumes. Using a lower crossover can impact the dynamic range of your system. I'm not saying not to try a low crossover. Try a variety of crossovers, subwoofer placements, etc, and see which one works best in your situation.

Ah, I got ya. So if I keep my crossover low enough, this shouldn't be a problem?

Yes. They say that anything below 80Hz can't be localized. This is why the THX crossover setting is set at 80Hz.

Yes. They say that anything below 80Hz can't be localized. This is why the THX crossover setting is set at 80Hz.

I agree this is pretty much true. However, some people are more sensitive to directionality at lower frequencies. Some people can get away with crossing their sub at 120hz or 150hz and not notice where the sub is. Others (like me) can localize a subwoofer if it's crossed at 80hz behind me, but if placed in the front soundstage, it blends in much better. One thing I've found distracting with a nearfield placement is the physical impact of the subwoofer. I've had my PB10 placed just a foot or two behind my listening position, and can feel the air against the back of my seat. It's a very visceral, exciting sensation, but at the same time, I find it odd to have the BACK of my seat being "punched" with LFE when the explosion is happening in FRONT of me. A minor quibble, but something that's caused me to move my subwoofer to the front soundstage. It would be interesting for me to try rear placement with a downfiring subwoofer, though, because I think that would eliminate this problem.

The other thing to consider is that a crossover isn't a brick wall, but rather the beginning of a slope. So if your subwoofer is crossing over at 80hz, depending on the crossover slope, it can still have significant bass output at 100hz or even 120hz, which are much more localizable. Again, I'd recommend to the OP that he try the more convenient placement first, and try a couple crossovers. More than likely, this will work out fine. However, unless the OP finds this placement to be flawless, I'd recommend at least testing both locations to see which he prefers.

For the record, iceperson, I agree with your statement as a general rule, but my personal experience has somewhat differed from the norm. Still, I believe 80hz is a good starting place. I use 80hz as my crossover now, but with the subwoofer in front instead of behind, and it integrates flawlessly. Just my two cents.

Stephen

lalakersfan, very informative posts, thanks. I will try both places, and although it's a pain to move the bookshelf, it's not that heavy....because it's cheap:D Laziness can be a driving force, but I want the best sound my room can give with what I have to work with, so no sweat. I have a feeling that it may sound better in front, like you described, having that punch right next to you may be distracting....or I may like it, who knows. I'll give them both a shot. I am really looking forward to hooking this beast up, I am under the impression that I will not be disappointed by this SVS sub. I am going from a Mission 10" sub that weighed 40lbs that eventually gave out (it was a floor model) to this.

By the way, no problem with the long post, very informative and thanks for your time.

Damon

Good stuff....I am in the same position as you. This helped.

Glad to help, if even a little. I've learned so much from everyone here, it's fun to contribute a bit myself (though my knowledge compared to many on AVS is miniscule at best). Good luck, and believe me, going from that small 10" Mission to a PB12-NSD will be a VERY nice upgrade :D.

^ Good advice, lalakersfan34!!!

Craig

Thank you everyone for the advice. This is why I became a member here, to chat with people who have the same interests and more knowledge than myself. There is nothing better than A/V...well maybe beer and bedroom activities:) In any event, my sub comes Monday, and I will post back on how it sounds and which spot I settle on.

Damon

The other option is up front behind the right front speaker and in a corner.

That gets my vote. See this article:

www.realtraps.com/art_sub-placement.htm

--Ethan

That gets my vote. See this article:

www.realtraps.com/art_sub-placement.htm

--Ethan

Thanks for the tip Ethan, and I did check out your link. I do have a couple of questions though. Having the sub in the front corner, will that make my bass boomy? Will there be any performance sacrifice between that position and the other one I have to work with. I am not in a position right now to be able to by acoustic treatments and such. I just bought a new condo and money is tight. Thanks for the advice.

Having the sub in the front corner, will that make my bass boomy?

The only way to know is to try it. If you have a very large open living room it could be fine. If you have a 10 by 12 room it might well be boomy.

--Ethan

First off I would like to thank everyone who provided advice on my placement question. I took delivery of the SVS yesterday and decided on the front corner next to the right speaker for placement. I have not tried the other spot yet, and to be honest I'm not sure if I'm going to. With the room being so small, and both spots essentially in the corner, I can't see how changing the position to the rear of the room will affect the sound dramatically.

Here are my impressions of the sub...wow! My jaw dropped quite a few times yesterday. The most notable sound was the scene in Transformers, when Ironhide uses his cannons to flip himself over....unbelievable. The sub can be a tad boomy, but I suspect it's because of the corner placement, and the room size. I have my crossover set at 70hz, that sounded better to me. The recommended 80hz kind of made my mains sound a little hollow. I have the sub level in the receiver set between 0 and +2 depending on the movie and the source. The volume on the sub is set at a quarter beneath one half. I can't imagine having to turn it up more, unless I need to listen to a movie at a lower master volume.

I also found setting my front speakers to large yielded the best sound. With them set to small, they overall sound was again a little hollow. I had my wife listen as I fiddled with the phase, and we found between a third and half was were it sounded best and most powerful. When watching movies around the -10 mark on my receiver, the sub was kicking out the bass, like the aforementioned Iron Hide scene. I'm not sure what the limits of this sub are, nor do I really want to see what they are, but that woofer was moving hardcore. How do I know when enough is enough? I don't want to break my new purchase. As much as it was moving, it didn't sound stressed, just powerful.

All in all, I am completely happy and satisfied:D
If it wasn't for this forum, I would have ended up with an Infinity sub over this SVS. It was a toss up between SVS and HSU, but I couldn't justify spending an extra 50 dollars on shipping and $30 extra on the sub itself for similar performance.

Thanks again,
Damon

How do I know when enough is enough? I don't want to break my new purchase.

Take the $50 you saved and get yourself an SPL meter (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=2032057). It's mandatory equipment, IMO.


Scott

Here are my impressions of the sub...wow!

:D

The sub can be a tad boomy, but I suspect it's because of the corner placement, and the room size.

The sub itself is not boomy at all. I'm sure it's your room, especially if you have no bass traps.

--Ethan

Take the $50 you saved and get yourself an SPL meter (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=2032057). It's mandatory equipment, IMO.


Scott

I second this. Get an SPL meter and calibrate your levels. Also might want to look into something like AVIA Guide to Home Theater. It gives great video test patterns for video calibration, as well as multiple audio test tones to check speakers levels, phase, etc. BTW, congratulations on your purchase! That PB12-NSD is in a whole different league than any Infinity sub you might have ended up with. :D

I second this. Get an SPL meter and calibrate your levels. Also might want to look into something like AVIA Guide to Home Theater. It gives great video test patterns for video calibration, as well as multiple audio test tones to check speakers levels, phase, etc. BTW, congratulations on your purchase! That PB12-NSD is in a whole different league than any Infinity sub you might have ended up with. :D

lalakersfan, I read that you are adding a second sub to your room, please let us know how that works out. I could only imagine having two of these kicking out the bass. Good luck.

Damon

:D



The sub itself is not boomy at all. I'm sure it's your room, especially if you have no bass traps.

--Ethan

Thanks for the info, Ethan. I'm sure you are correct. I would like to, in the future, make some diy acoustic and/or sound proofing tiles. Would these benefit me in the boominess scenario? Also, since I live in a condo, I would like to be able to reduce any noise coming from my media room. Next on my list of things to do is to get an spl meter.

lalakersfan, I read that you are adding a second sub to your room, please let us know how that works out. I could only imagine having two of these kicking out the bass. Good luck.

Damon

Yep, my second PB10-NSD should arrive tomorrow. My plan is just to stack them so I get a 6dB increase in SPL. Your PB12-NSD is an incredible value, and if I'd had the room, I'd have purchased a PB12 instead. From 15-20hz, your single PB12-NSD should equal or beat my dual, stacked PB10's. Above 20hz, the PB10's should win out from between one and four dB, depending on the frequency. But in an 11x10 bedroom, floorspace was limited, and stacking PB10's was the best option. Don't worry, I'll give impressions once things get set up. I totally want to ditch my classes tomorrow and just play around with the subs, but I don't think I will. Anyway, I'll post back tomorrow. And enjoy your PB12! I bet it makes a HT a completely different experience :D.

BTW...pictures of your new setup are eagerly anticipated :D ;)

BTW...pictures of your new setup are eagerly anticipated

I wish I could lalakersfan, but I don't own a digital camera:o

I wish I could lalakersfan, but I don't own a digital camera:o

I don't either, actually. I have to use my webcam, which takes crappy pictures, but at least it's something :cool:. Anyway, enjoy your PB12-NSD. BTW, I ended up getting my second PB10 and I'm liking my setup a lot :D. Impressions on the Official SVS Owners thread.

Would these [bass traps] benefit me in the boominess scenario?

Yes! :D

since I live in a condo, I would like to be able to reduce any noise coming from my media room.

Unfortunately that's much more difficult, and unrelated to acoustic treatment that improves the sound quality inside the room.

--Ethan