.

Just buy a 4x8, or larger, sheet of Wilsonart Designer White and you will be good to go. Its about $80 a sheet and many people use this as their permanent screen solution, even some with G90s. :)

+1 for the Wilsonart.

I haven't gotten my sheet yet, but the screenshots and good things people say about it make me want to burn my BOC screen.

Well, I can't have anything heavy on the wall in my house. Per my lease. I'm not even allowed to put up picture frames! The owner is stupid, he had the walls done in plaster, not drywall and stucco! So the wall is uneven and a 4x8 sheet, even if I were allowed wouldn't work. The top left would be touching the wall, the bottom left would be about an inch away from the wall, the right top about three inches, and the bottom right about four inches away from the wall. Meaning I'd have to borrow my grandfather's laser sight and connect wooden face plates to poles which I'd have to mount the Wilsonart to! The landlord would love that.
:confused: If you can't put up picture frames, how are you planning on putting up a screen?

+1 for the Wilsonart.

I haven't gotten my sheet yet, but the screenshots and good things people say about it make me want to burn my BOC screen.

I prefer BOC to the wilsonart. I got terrible colorshift with the wilsonart. As in in an IRE window, the left side was probably at least 800° different than the right side.

.... Sounds like you may have to build a stand-up frame for your screen.. what a bunch of extra bull to have to go through.

Setting up a CRT like the 1352, I won't be around her long enough to get grumpy towards her

If your hands shake and the meds for that has a side effect that makes you grumpy..

I'll give you two days into setting up an NEC and you'll forget all about the flaws of a digital.

Sounds like a crappy plastering job. I've owned three houses with plaster walls (still living in the third), and as long as you drill holes in the plaster (using a standard masonry bit) and use anchors, rather than try to hammer in nails, there's no problem, the plaster won't crack. Although I suspect you'll have a hard time convincing your landlord of that...

Plaster has a major advantage over sheetrock - its sound insulating properties are much better.

A sheet will do your projector NO justice.. you need at LEAST blackout cloth to get a proper image. A fixed stand-up frame to hold blackout cloth or a sheet of Wilsonart wouldn't be difficult to build. Just make sure the screen CAN'T move once placed.

It doesn't matter if you get a 1351 or 1352, unless you have a HD cable box with Component out. I have a component input on my NEC switcher that I've never used (I use a PC via RGBHV aka VGA). If you find a 1352 with HD-134 lenses it may be better than one with HD-18s, but some have said there's no difference.

Don't forget the 1101LC, it's functionally identical to the 1351, and more common and cheaper.

Yes the NEC's colours are theoretically better than a G90 and a lot better than a Marquee (both can be modded however, with filtered C-elements and end up the same). G70 has the same colours as a NEC BTW.


For god's sake don't use a sheet.

My blockout cloth + gesso screen has a standalone frame and is clamped on top of my audio rack. It doesn't touch the walls at all.

The black border around the screen is IMPORTANT, as is masking for 2.35:1 movies (a tweak for later down the track).

As a NEC owner I still think you should get a G70....

I stapled the blockout cloth to a pine frame.

It's the gesso that's important - you could roll/spray this onto a MDF sheet instead.


There are many ways to make a decent DIY screen.

I think Gary went to HD18 and then back to hd134.
If we have not done a bandwith comparison with appropriate pattern it would hard to tell if they all are (110x,51, and 52) the same. Just by looking at the board or opinion based comments is NOT the correct way imo?!

I thought you or someone else said that 52 has different neck boards as well!

1352 has the same neckboards as the 751, 1101, 1351 and 852.

There are only two XG neckboards, one for 750/1100 and 1350, and one for the later ones.

If there are no board level differences (in each generation) then I struggle to see how there's any difference at all.

Mike and TSE have basically stated that no stock CRT has a bandwidth over 100mhz. The bandwidth specs are just marketing. Funny the way they are always round numbers...never 87.4mhz. Always 100, or 150, etc.

You might think about a free-standing screen. Draper and Da-lite have such beasts or DIY with 2x4's, canvas/blackout and matte white gesso. A bed sheet is about as good as projecting on a cat box.

1352 has the same neckboards as the 751, 1101, 1351 and 852.

There are only two XG neckboards, one for 750/1100 and 1350, and one for the later ones.

If there are no board level differences (in each generation) then I struggle to see how there's any difference at all.

Mike and TSE have basically stated that no stock CRT has a bandwidth over 100mhz. The bandwidth specs are just marketing. Funny the way they are always round numbers...never 87.4mhz. Always 100, or 150, etc.

So there has never been actual tests or comparisions and you say XG1352 is same as 750 in performance. Is this the general understanding that Nec puts out a unit like 52 and claims its BW is twice the actual? :)

Like I said I would be interseted in some field test if has been done previously by anyone.

No, the 750 is the first generation (gen "0") and has completely different neckboards and a slightly different video path to the later models. I never said a 750 was the same, but the 751 is - bar the LC.

I know for a fact there are no relevant differences between a 751 and a 1101 - I've both full boards sets (the only differences are on the Oscillator board and HV-Board). I also know a 1351 is no different - despite difference bandwidth specs.

I know the 852/1352 uses the same neckboards as the xxxx1 models, and there is no relevant difference between the 853/1352. The rest of the video path between the xxx2 and xxx1 models is very slightly different, but not much. Only Doug would know if you could swap the boards xxx1 to xxx2.

But no, no-one I know of has done an objective test like you mention. It's not easy to do. You either need a high bandwidth scope, or careful setup of all the projectors (and some tubes focus better than others..). Given that all the board numbers are the same in the service manual, I just don't see the point.

I don't believe I have ever seen any objective bandwidth testing. None of the review mags ever did this to my knowledge. Infocomm used to have the shootouts, but I haven't seen any written reviews of these contests. It is funny in that with all of the cheap pjs floating around I don't believe VDC has bought any to do any testing or just check out.

NECs have 100 memories.

I brought up the whole video bandwidth question in this thread and I am sorry I did, because I really didn’t understand what I was quoting all I knew was larger the number the better especially when running higher scan/refresh rates. From everything I have seen this is one of the simplest definitions of video bandwidth I’ve seen they all say mostly the same thing but this one is really to the point.

“Video bandwidth refers to a monitor's ability to refresh the screen. High bandwidths allow more information to be painted across the display in a given amount of time, which translates into support for higher resolutions and higher refresh rates. Lower bandwidths result in flickering, ringing artifacts, and ghosting.

To calculate the bandwidth of a monitor (measured in megahertz, or MHz), multiply the horizontal resolution by the vertical resolution, and then multiply the product of the two figures by the refresh rate. For example, 800 x 600 x 75 = 36 MHz “

If this is the case I don’t know how manufactures can quote bandwidth specification because it is based on the resolution & refresh rate unless they somehow determined it by the maximum scan rate. So in this instance then perhaps the reason the 135x projectors would have higher bandwidth then 75x & 85x is because they can scan to higher frequency and the spec is based on the entire system perhaps measured the CRT face at the max resolution, not just the video chain. The other variable in this is refresh rates and it can play a huge role in determining the bandwidth requirement or performance of a unit. Maybe this is why I am able to run a very high refresh rate 1080p @ 96Hz on my projector without seeing a great degree of image degradation.

I don’t know the answer but it seems odd that large company like NEC would blatantly lie about a specification on a piece of equipment new costing $20K. The legal implications would be enormous and chance of class actions suite would be very high if caught. Somewhere they must have had numbers or testing to backup these specs.

Mike

Yes you can do all that and have also different color temp and/or refresh rates.
Thanks Mark. I meant subjective field test which should be fun to do anyway.
I just need to get my hands on some refrence 1080p signal.

I'm VERY surprised you are able to run 1080p 96hz without severe ringing on the LHS or image folderover. Can you please post the timings?

I'm guessing your signal is around 120khz, as I run 1080i 96hz and that is around 60khz.

In my experience with a couple of XG's (but mostly mine) you lose the ability to resolve 1:1 lines along the 1920 at around 1080p 60hz. I think Benny (Russ) has found much the same, and he set up another local guy's XG at 1280 x 1080 at 48hz (maybe 1440x 1080 at 48hz I forget), not even pushing it to 1920.

I'd really be giving 1080p 72hz a go if you are going to stay with a high refresh rate. Only Mike Parker's modded Marquee 8500 has given good results at this res - better than a G90. Nobody else is running 1080p 96hz.

Bandwidth is not related to scanrate (abeit indirectly in that you can have two different signals with the same scanrate which have different bandwidth requirements, due to different horizontal to vertical ratios - more horizontal pixels needs more bandwidth).
But at a guess you'd need well over 200mhz to do 1080p 96 well.

Please keep an eye on your projector's temperature if you are running 120khz for long periods of time.

Neato. So can I do all of these?

Assuming a 52 series:

1) 3D0 640x480i s-video 4:3
2) NES 256x240p RCA 4:3 (NTSC allows for progressive output with 240 lines or lower, the a regular NTSC 384i or 480i RCA signal can be processed as 240p and the other lines are skipped. The active lines are drawn twice!)
3) PS2 720x480i component 4:3
4) PS2 720x480p component 16:9
5) Xbox 360 1280x720p VGA 16:9
6) 1920x1080i60 component from a cable box.
7) 1920x1080p96 VGA from a PC

So let's say I want to make a memory #7 and I want to be crazy like MikeEby and try 1920x1080p96, I'll be able keep all my work of #6 at regular 1080i? Along with 1-5 too, switching sources at will?

LOL Yes you can try being crazy like me. But don't even consider running 480i on a 1352. Find some sort of cheap line doublers even an old Iscan 480p unit, 480i is simply crap.

If you are thinking about a 4:3 screen I would think twice, If not for any reason other than it looks like 1950's technology compared to a modern looking 16:9 screen. Remember analog tv is going away next year, well sort of. :)

I would also really think twice about a lot of video games on a CRT, static images are a CRT’s enemy. Get totally cheap bulb unit for that and throw it on the coffee table. Save the “minty tubes” for the good stuff.

Mike

Bulb rating is like CRT hour rating. Bandwidth is a different beast.
I always thought that 1101, 1351 are 110 and 1352 is 130 and it should be good enough. Running the 52 with 960p @72Hz is awesome.

We know that 52 uses a different sys board and has different firmware therefore looking at the boards and estimating is waste of time imo.
I will run some 1 pixel test 1080p soon.

I'm VERY surprised you are able to run 1080p 96hz without severe ringing on the LHS or image folderover. Can you please post the timings?

I'm guessing your signal is around 120khz, as I run 1080i 96hz and that is around 60khz.

In my experience with a couple of XG's (but mostly mine) you lose the ability to resolve 1:1 lines along the 1920 at around 1080p 60hz. I think Benny (Russ) has found much the same, and he set up another local guy's XG at 1280 x 1080 at 48hz (maybe 1440x 1080 at 48hz I forget), not even pushing it to 1920.

I'd really be giving 1080p 72hz a go if you are going to stay with a high refresh rate. Only Mike Parker's modded Marquee 8500 has given good results at this res - better than a G90. Nobody else is running 1080p 96hz.

Bandwidth is not related to scanrate (abeit indirectly in that you can have two different signals with the same scanrate which have different bandwidth requirements, due to different horizontal to vertical ratios - more horizontal pixels needs more bandwidth).
But at a guess you'd need well over 200mhz to do 1080p 96 well.

Please keep an eye on your projector's temperature if you are running 120khz for long periods of time.

Here is my timings.

http://acdnow.com/images/PSTimings.png

Right now I'm playing the hell out of Assassin's Creed on my 21.6 inch wide Sammy HDTV CRT. I couldn't even see the black detail on a $6,000 top of the line 500,000:1 CR Sammy LCD. My CRT HDTV with ~20,000:1 CR apparently beats 500,000:1!

If I turn down contrast and brightness when playing the 360, wouldn't that save the tubes? Actually, wouldn't I just need to turn down contrast? Phosphor's worst enemy is too high of a contrast setting? What would a safe video gaming contrast and brightness setting be, and what's the normal contrast and brightness settings?

So if you're talking about NES or 3DO, I can probably pass on those. But the Xbox 360 can't be run properly on anything other than a CRT without losing black detail on dark games like: Oblivion, Assassin's Creed, Lost Planet, and King Kong, just to name a few.

I have a friend who plays Assassin's Creed on a Westinghouse 42" 1080p LCD. I was laughing at him. He says it's "just fine". He can see all the details. I personally think he's friggin' blind! All he can say is, "woo look at how sharp it is, I can see lines, look at your CRT it's blurry as hell!"

Your sound like you know what your doing, and the newer games are probably better then the old games when it comes to static images just keep it in mind. Not a big gamer here so I have no idea what your talking about. :)

Mike

I know. That's why I said 1351 with a component board added. I don't want a transcoder because they can be flakey, poor quality and none do 1080i properly ( pseudo 1080i as 540p bob and weave, ewww ).


Really and what are you basing this on? I haven't heard any complaints about the Kimcoder, but you obviously know more than I do.:rolleyes:

I want real 1080i with all the flicker effects. Some games done with interlace do flicker effects. I tried the Audio Authority 9A65, it had problems with flicker effects.




LOL You want flicker? :confused: Guess gammers are different beed.

Mike

reio-ta wrote:
> I don't want a transcoder because they can be flakey, poor quality and none do 1080i properly ( pseudo 1080i as 540p bob and weave, ewww ). <

I'm not sure what you're talking about, because a transcoder simply converts from the YPbPr domain to RGB (or vice-versa). It has no effect at all on i/p, and simply puts out whatever's going in. It sounds like you've got "transcoder" confused with a deinterlacer or scaler. And thus your prejudice against using one is unjustified.

> I tried the Audio Authority 9A65, it had problems with flicker effects. <

Sure. That's because the AA-9A65 was never designed to handle 1080i in the first place, nor did Audio Authority claim it could. It was a 480i/p component to VGA transcoder, that could handle a somewhat larger range of frequencies. From AA's product description... "Convert your Progressive Scan DVD player or game boxes at 480i/480p resolutions to VGA (RGBHV) to connect to a front projector or PC monitor." They were also clear that "This product was designed to work with DVD players. Although there are other applications where a product like this might be used (e.g. PVRs, satellite receivers, or video game consoles), the 9A65 may not work reliably in these other applications".

Many gaming transcoders were designed simply to let you run relatively low-rez games (of the time) on VGA computer monitors. And they didn't make any effort to prevent confusion about their limitations. There are still lots of these cheap "gaming transcoders (aka, VGA converters) around. You need a better transcoder to handle HD video signals. Your blanket condemnation that "none do 1080i properly" is simply not true.

- Tim

Eh? There's any number of transcoders that will do 1080i.

Kim's one, Moome cards, Mike's transcoder.

Keeping the 1080i isn't hard, avoiding crushed blacks is the tricky bit.

I'd love to be proved wrong, show me.

I'm not talking about a gaming transcoder like an XRGB VGA box. I'm talking about a Calrad composite RCA to VGA transcoder:
http://www.calrad.com/download/40-889.pdf



Under what circumstances are you finding a 1080i signal on a Composite Video cable? I don't see how that Calrad transcoder relates to the discussion about transcoding 1080i.

-Mark

reio-ta

I, for one, am confused. Are you talking about COMPONENT (YPbPr) signals or COMPOSITE?

None of us expect to get HD video over COMPOSITE!!

There are some fine component to VGA transcoders available - many of us have tried them and been quite happy.

It doesn't sound like you've done your homework and researched the options that have become available over the last year or so.

My 2 cents

reio-ta writes:
> I'd love to be proved wrong, show me. <

Sure. Here's the proof. Pick up a Kimcoder ($159, or $189 with gamma correction) here:
http://crescendo-systems.com/rev_transcoder.html

It does a superb job, and many here in the Forum are extremely happy with their units. That's why lots of folks are scratching their heads at your comments... they're doing every day exactly what you think can't be done for under a grand.

- Tim

I second the recommendation of Kim's transcoder. I have an NEC XG110 and I'm using the RTC2200 with gamma and I can honestly say that it's made more of an improvement to my display than anything else I've tried. The built in gamma adjustment is in my opinion A MUST if you plan on running an NEC CRT projector. I also think you should take the suggestion of a member early on about using the Designer White laminate material. This is what I am using and it's really not difficult to hang up. Just pre-drill your holes for mounting and the plaster walls will be fine. When I was still testing mine I hung it up with two of those "Hercules Hooks" like you see on TV. Cheesy I know but it worked just fine. I now have it mounted to the wall with a wood frame backing. My second choice would be a BOC screen which is what I was using before.

1. Like others have stated there are many analog and digital based transcoders that will handle 1080i fine. I've got petrs NEC ISS switcher card transcoder and it is great for either true 1080i or 720p both straight passthrough.

2. For your low res gaming (since you aren't concerned about upscaling it) ... and Mario test... forget the transcoders... most CRT's including the XG will have a straight composite video input. It should handle your Mario test just fine directly into it.

I know I am a bit late in posting but I just saw the thread here.

The RTC2x00 will transcode all common video frequencies including 1080i correctly from component to VGA. It does not do bob or weave or whatever, it will just change the color-space line by line. To be honest I have no idea if it will do 240p because I have never tried it and don't have the equipment to generate it.

My guess is that your problem lies in the display equipment and not the transcoder. No computer LCD (and probably no LCD projector/TV either) will display 1080i (or any interlaced signal) natively. Since LCD/DLP displays are inherently fixed pixel and progressive they will scale the incoming signal to its native progressive resolution. Depending on how well it does that you can see all sorts of artifacts.

Only a multisync display that just syncs to the input and displays it on the screen without changeing the scanning, most likely a CRT in whatever form, will be able to correctly display any (non)-interlaced video signal at various scanning rates.

You probably already know that the 240p was chosen because it is easy to generate low res games in and it is treated as 480i by any commonly existing NTSC CRT TV.


Kim

Without knowing the exact model of your TV I cannot say for sure what it does to the signal, Samsung in my opinion goes hog-wild on the processing. It can also depend on the input, component may be fine for 1080i because it will be treated as video while the VGA/RGB input goes through a different processing path because it is treated as a computer resolution. Some TV's won't even accept 1080i through the VGA.

It is best tested on a old multisync CRT based computer monitor or a CRT front-projector that does no processing of its own.

The RTC2200 is indeed also called Kimcoder (for obvious reasons) and I am out of stock at this moment (I can only send you a board without case).


Kim

As far as I can see this Samsung up-converts 480i to 480p and seems to leave 1080i alone. This makes sense since the timing of 480p and 1080i are almost identical making it easier to create the deflection circuitry.

960i has the same timing as 480p so that will work and I am pretty sure you can make 540p work as well as the timing is the same as 1080i.

The component inputs on the NEC were not regarded well, from what I recall....

I hope you're ready for a big, really loud projector that is a serious challenge to setup well...because that's what you're in for. And when I say loud, I mean loud...I think it has 10+ fans in it. But hey, I'm a real stickler for loudness...it's made me get rid of many projectors over the years.

Get the kimcoder...it's great and has a much needed gamma boost.

Ben

Oh yah...one other thing. It is big and loud, but it does throw as good an image (if not better) than just about anything else out there.

Ben

Hey reio-ta

While you're try to decide which pj to acquire, why not just your feet wet with an inexpensive Zenith 895 now on eBay? It can do 1080i, weighs less than 100 pounds, supposedly not too noisy, and is even liquid coupled!

http://cgi.*********/ZENITH-HD-VIDEO-PROJECTOR-CRT-Pro895x-LINE-DOUBLER_W0QQitemZ200194237142QQihZ010QQcategoryZ32862QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If nobody else bids, you can get it for $10 plus gas.

I have been running component with my xx52 for 7 years and puts out exceptionally detailed picture. I don't have any issues. Where the big comes from? It is about the same size as average 8" CRT but much less hight profile which is good thing on the ceiling. I say it one more time..noise is overblown unless those fans are worn out and need replacement. All crt's are noisy and need hushbox both for noise and proper cooling.
I set up a new entry in 20 mins without grayscale or g2. That is fast and only have done it 10+ times.

Sure Caspian...I guess the NEC is small and quite...easy to install and setup. My bad...

That is not what I said!
It is all relative when comes to noise level. It is noisy but show me a quiet CRT other than Dwin. If quietness is the objective picking one up a Dwin makes sense.
Size of the Nec is not an issue again relative to other 8" and weight is about the same too compared to like G70. XG has a low profile which makes it a good choice if one has a 8' or lower ceiling.
I have posted a couple of screenshots that were taken with component feed. While screenshots are not a proof of performance they look good nevertheless and i have been happy. Perrhaps I am not anal.
If he wants a small, quiet, ease of set up and frequently on the move he is in the wrong forum imo and has nothing to do with Nec.

Also, every time I move, I'd have to re-setup geometry which is a big ass bitch on ANY NEC! :(

How do you know that? I think it's quite easy...

Anyway, you wouldn't have to do it from scratch. Just mount it in almost exactly the same relationship to the screen and tweak it.

Barco's are also quite...Marquee's are easily modded to be quite quite. Even a PG can be toned down, but an XG requires more work, better hushbox etc...

I love it's pic though...it's fantastik!

I'm just trying to give this guy the info he needs...that's all.

I bought mine and have never messed with astig. It was done right at the factory and still looks good. It was done in Japan and I am here in the US.
It is difficult to find a pj that stikes a good balance between PQ and other parameters.
We are here for PQ and try to work out or compromise the down sides.

Having said that all the 8" LC are very nice and budget oriented. For absolute best a 9" CRT is the prime choice but then it is even heavier, and bigger and so forth.

Part availability should be a top concern and for that I would pick a Marquee. It is also easier to service and set up and quieter but not quiet.

2) Reds look orange :(

:(

Have you tried the service menu to see if there are color adjustments?

but now you have the color of your room reflecting light back at the screen...do you have an all black room?

I am indeed the same Kim. The RTC2x00 transcodes video frequencies up to 1080p and will pass any VGA/RGBHV signal up to 1600x1200@75Hz (i or p) without changing the timing. Additionally you have manual control over the sync polarity (H and V separately), the H and V sync width and the H-delay (positive delays only).


Kim

In my opinion, Kim makes the very best transcoder available. If you are using a CRT projector then the built in gamma adjustment of the RTC2200 is a must. This is still the single biggest improvement I have made to my setup.