Ok…you guy probably think I’m crazy but I have tried about every resolution/refresh possible to my XG1351 from an HTPC equipped a Bluray/HD-DVD combo drive fed via RBGHV. What I have found is I liked 1080p@ 96Hz (95.904) best. Slow pans are silky smooth compared to others I have tried and the image just looks extremely stable.

What I was using as a benchmark is the opening scene in "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" on Bluray, the long shot of the town that ends looking directly down on the playground. For HD-DVD I’m using the Universal Globe in the opening of "King Kong". When running at 1080p 60Hz those scenes looked horrible, very jerky and almost hard to watch. With 72 Hz the motion was somewhat better but with my projector I get a weird shake in the picture that is unacceptable. Running 48Hz wasn’t in the cards because of way-way too much flicker for my taste and with 1080i there was too many interlace artifacts that I found distracting. Perhaps my eyes are more sensitive to this as I see “Rainbow Effect” with many of the digital projectors.

To achieve 96Hz I do have to run some very strange porch settings with Power Strip to get enough width to fill the screen, but I feel it is well worth it to attain smooth action. The odd thing is I don’t really see that much degrading of sharpness in the video, there is some softness on the Windows Desktop but when a movie is playing I see no change at 1.0 screen width viewing distance.

http://acdnow.com/images/PSTimings.png

I think in the past I have put too much emphases on image sharpness and neglected motion, after all these are movies not still images and jerky action can be fatiguing to look at.

I am amazed at how well these new formats are in regards to handling slow pans and fast action as compared SD-DVD, satellite HD & OTA HDTV. I have yet to see something that resembles a motion artifact.

I was wondering also if anyone with a 9” projector that can truly resolve 1080p has tried 96 Hz and what they thought of it. Unfortunately also all of this is very subjective but I just thought I would share with you my outlook.

Mike

I might try 1280x720 with 95hz, but 1080p with that setting...

Go back to 720p and you might change your mind about "sharpness" (detail).

Yes, I'm sure those 24 frames per second look much smoother when they're shown four times in a row at 96hz than when they're shown three times in a row at 72.

This is interesting. If I understand the bandwidth discussion threads from awhile back, then you are losing sharpness and MTF with higher resolutions. I am not sure if there are any other parameters that are affected. A lot of people dislike the the increased softness with higher resolutions. Take a pic of the resolution pattern placed in a corner. If you like it and it works, then that is great. I will let Scott or MP take over from here.

Ahh, here are the timings. A bit lower than I guessed. Thanks.

Eric... MTF means mean time to failure?

Mike, I thought you were being sarcastic in that other thread when you mentioned you were doing 1080p @ 96Hz :eek:. This is interesting... I'm sure many people are curious to see some 1:1 test pattern shots.

As Ericglo said, look at a 1:1 test-pattern and most likely you will change your mind. I would think your problems with 72 Hz are source-related. Is Reclock active? Even 72 Hz is way to much at 1080p for a 1351. I would either try to learn to live with 48Hz or take a step back to 1600x900p @ 72 Hz, which I am using at the moment. Looks every bit as good as 1080p to my eyes.

Daniel.

Will the 1351/1352 be able to handle 1920x1080p @ 48 hz? Progressive 48 hz should look similar to a film projector and unlike interlaced 72 hz would get rid of scanlines but at the same time give a sharp enough MTF inter-pixel contrast?


Yeah, it's great if you like strobelights. Flicker drives me nuts.

1080i 96hz works.

As Ericglo said, look at a 1:1 test-pattern and most likely you will change your mind. I would think your problems with 72 Hz are source-related. Is Reclock active? Even 72 Hz is way to much at 1080p for a 1351. I would either try to learn to live with 48Hz or take a step back to 1600x900p @ 72 Hz, which I am using at the moment. Looks every bit as good as 1080p to my eyes.

Daniel.

I have picture shaking at all resolution at 72Hz if I step up refresh rate it starts as about 65Hz and ends about 80Hz even the desktop I don't think re-clock would help that, this why I don't like 72Hz. Perhaps something is wrong with the projector causing this or some type of outside interference, I will give 1600x900p a go again and see how it looks. I am also running very short cables but I don't think that would make a difference.

I will also see if I can get an image of the 1:1 pattern, my digital camera is total crap.

Yeah, it's great if you like strobelights. Flicker drives me nuts.

1080i 96hz works.

Yes 48Hz I’m afraid could cause seizures, :) for me it just doesn’t cut it.

Mike

Weird. A film projector does the shutter twice every frame, making it flicker the black shutter at 48 hz. I hate flicker too. I wonder why 48 hz progressive on a top notch CRT would flicker that badly? I was always under the impression CRT projectors have a lot longer persistence of the phosphors than your typical PC direct view CRT monitor. Damn :(

Does 96 hz interlaced on a NEC flicker fast enough you can't see the scanlines unless you put your nose to the screen? Besides flicker, I hate scanlines.

Don't let Mark get to you - he thinks interlacing artefacts are an integral part of the picture ;)

A lot of people here on AVS run their projectors at 48Hz 1080p, probably more than those that run them at 1080i 96.

I suggest to try both and make up your mind yourself, with regard to bandwidth and MTF both resolutions should yield the same results, 1080i 96 might still look a tad sharper because of scan line structure.

Haha :D

Just curious, which cable to most of you guys use as a VGA to 5-BNC breakout? I don't want to get one that's too cheap of quality but also I think something like a Blue Jeans cable is going overboard and pretty much snake oil. 96 hz is some serious BW and I want to make sure I'm covered.

When dealing with analog cables, you can't call a $100 cable snake oil. Maybe a $700 cable. Digital is another story though.

But I'm sure some people will disagree with me...

Don't let Mark get to you - he thinks interlacing artefacts are an integral part of the picture ;)

A lot of people here on AVS run their projectors at 48Hz 1080p, probably more than those that run them at 1080i 96.

I suggest to try both and make up your mind yourself, with regard to bandwidth and MTF both resolutions should yield the same results, 1080i 96 might still look a tad sharper because of scan line structure.

Hehehehe.

You picks your compromises. I can't stand the flicker of 48/50hz, and the cinema drives me nuts now.

I'll take the occasional field line visibility (white objects moving vertically), over constant, unrelenting flicker. 95% of the time the image is basically perfect.

Horses for courses. At least we have options.

Hehehehe.

You picks your compromises. I can't stand the flicker of 48/50hz, and the cinema drives me nuts now.

I'll take the occasional field line visibility (white objects moving vertically), over constant, unrelenting flicker. 95% of the time the image is basically perfect.

Horses for courses. At least we have options.

Yup, we have options and I have to admit that I know of one person that watched my pic and complained of flicker, everybody else did not.

When you are so sensitive to it I think 72/96Hz interlaced is the best way to go.

From what you write you seem to perceive even dark passages as flickering, that puzzles me. Very bright stuff like Ice Age I could understand although even there it does not bother me but Blade Runner ? No flickering to be seen there, at least for me.

Ahh, you got me, you are right.

Obviously a black screen does not flicker, so the appearance of flicker is proportional to output. However to me, the flicker is very obvious in a scene that will not reveal field lines.

For instance I watched Shooter last night (don't bother..) and didn't notice field lines once. However Transformers last week had them quite a lot.

The sensitivity is learned. A normal old interlaced 50hz PAL tv didn't use to bother me. Then I picked up a 1080i 100hz CRT TV, which is rock solid. Now the normal TV flickers like crazy too...

Beware, looking for flicker is like looking for 3:2 Pulldown judder. Once you decide you don't like it, you are forever doomed...

Luckily I am not bothered much by flcker and can enjoy my images nice and progressive. Plus it is a bonus not to have to do anything about scanlines with a 9" unit.

Sensitivity to certain phenomena is reilly weird - once you see it you can never forget about it again, I am lucky I do not feel that way about 48 Hz.

For instance I watched Shooter last night (don't bother..) and didn't notice field lines once. However Transformers last week had them quite a lot.



maybe you can't use Transformers as an example - I watched it twice last week - on my trusty 980 (960p 72) and on the Mits 5000 1080p lcd. Was fine on my rig - but the background and most other scenes made me sick on the Mits. Any solid coloured area was crawling - nice effect, but I doubt it was intentional. That, and everything seemed so EE on the digital, perhaps it is just a poorly encoded film - I know that it was virtually unwatchable on the lcd. --Perhaps those same flaws are magnified on an interlaced display.

And fwiw, this was before NY Eve - so the problem was not internal to my decoding devices. :D

Transformers HD-DVD? Looked pretty darn good to me..

I only watch HD!!!

Transformers HD-DVD? Looked pretty darn good to me..



Looks good on my rig too - but hideous on the lcd - @1080p/60, with a Reon inside the pj. Just thought it might be something in the film, since the pj is "the next big thing" of the week over in bulb land. ;)

Weird. A film projector does the shutter twice every frame, making it flicker the black shutter at 48 hz. I hate flicker too. I wonder why 48 hz progressive on a top notch CRT would flicker that badly?To watch HD-DVD or BR, I'm using 1080p48 mode on my G90 with reduced timings in PS (119MHz pixelclock). I've noticed that lowering the video porches as much as possible is decreasing the flickering effect on the windows desktop (and also decrease the delivered VBW, providing a sharper 1080p picture).
On a movie, I simply can't see any flickering effect (my wife neither). We must be lucky...

I'm really happy with my 1080p48 PS setting :)

John

I tried what John suggested on my XG, but I was unable to get the porches low enough to reduce flicker, without causing ringing on the LHS and black clamping issues :(

Yes Mark,

This all depends on the PJ electronic retrace time value (should be the lowest value as possible). I think that Sony did their best electronic design on this point.

FYI, I've also setuped a DVDO VP50 scaler linked to another G90 (one unit I sold to a customer). I've set the VP50 in advance mode and fill the porches with those reduced porches value and this is working very nice with XA2/XE1 !

John

John - as a VP50 owner, using a Wyman card, figure I can ask - which values in the VP50 are porches, and what constitutes a "small" value? I've played with the advanced settings menu, but have seen little difference when playing with values (other than shift, and that if I go too far on a setting, the picture ceases to display.)

thanks

Here we go Jon :

VP50 parameters for 1080p48 mode (HD-DVD or BRD playback)
Mode = 1080p60 - 47.95Hz locked
Freq.H = 53.946KHz
Sync.V = 47.952Hz
Pixel rate = 118.681MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 48Hz Lock

VP50 parameters for 1080p50 mode (For Europe : SD-DVD or some HD-DVD playback)
Mode = 1080p50 - 50Hz locked
Freq.H = 56.25KHz
Sync.V = 50.00Hz
Pixel rate = 123.75MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88 (Instead of initial 528 value not suitable for CRT projectors)
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 50Hz Lock

These parameters can also be use on a HTPC with Powerstrip under 'advanced Timings options' menu.

Ending, please note that these values were tested on Sony VPH-G90U/G70 projectors and may be slightly different for others CRT projectors references (because of different 'retrace time')

Hope this helps

John

I wonder if the flicker on film is more noticeable then on a CRT running 48Hz? They are both showing the image at the same rate, but the CRT has the persistence of the phosphor to figure in. On film I guess it depends on how the shutter works. Turns out that some film projectors use a shutter rate of 72 Hz, to reduce the amount of flicker.

Suppose ably our visual process has a certain amount of persistence of vision. I wonder if you can train yourself to view things differently?

Deron.

I tried what John suggested on my XG, but I was unable to get the porches low enough to reduce flicker, without causing ringing on the LHS and black clamping issues :(

In my experience the XG needs at least 100 total pixels more, even the 1292 got by on very small porches when I used one.

I tried 1600X900p for 1/2 a movie thought it lacked detail, switched back to 1920X1080p for the rest and I still preferred 1080p. I will try to take some shots of the 1:1 pattern.

Mike

try a custom resolution of 1920x810, - 1600x900 will loose alot of horizontle detial for sure...
you will need something like yxy to correct aspec ratio for 1920X810

I'd really appreciate a few tips from you seasoned XG experts on what setting to use with my XG135.

I have just installed the Moome HDMI card and have noticed an immediate improvement in the image, which now appears much more lifelike than through the rgbhv.

I have been playing with 1080p coming out of a Sony BD300 going through a VP30. I am getting a lot of horizontal lines/waves coming through the image and in some blu ray movies the image seems to fold over on the left.

I've noticed a bit of talk about porch settings and timings, if anyone can spare some time would you be able to send me the settings that I could punch into the VP30 to try and clean up the picture.

I also have the BD300 going into a Sony 5300ES amp which then hooks into the VP30 via hdmi. Does the Amp need to be set to pass through?

Any tips at all are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Rob

:eek: Welcome to the forum, you had to bring this old thread up. :o I have since settled on 72Hz as 96Hz was much too soft. I found out what was causing the fludder in the image at 72 Hz, it was cause by a hush box fan mounted above the projector. About the only way I know of to get rid of the foldover is to use a stand alone scaler or an HTPC with custom porch settings.

Mike

Jon already posted some timimgs above, however you may need to add more pixels to the horizontal back porch as Xgs are not at tolerant as Sonys.

I use 1080i 96hz on my PC


PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,40,96,240,1080,54,14,97,137073,542

Generic timing details for 1920x1080:
HFP=40 HSW=96 HBP=240 kHz=60 VFP=54 VSW=14 VBP=97 Hz=48

VESA detailed timing:
PClk=137.07 H.Active=1920 H.Blank=376 H.Offset=24 HSW=96 V.Active=1080 V.Blank=165 V.Offset=54 VSW=14

Linux modeline parameters:
"1920x1080" 137.073 1920 1960 2056 2296 1080 1134 1148 1245 interlace -hsync -vsync

Nautikal,
Sorry, I never saw your reply. MTF is modular transfer function. It is a good way to measure sharpness and resolution. There are a bunch of threads on this written by more capable individuals than me.

Here we go Jon :

VP50 parameters for 1080p48 mode (HD-DVD or BRD playback)
Mode = 1080p60 - 47.95Hz locked
Freq.H = 53.946KHz
Sync.V = 47.952Hz
Pixel rate = 118.681MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 48Hz Lock

VP50 parameters for 1080p50 mode (For Europe : SD-DVD or some HD-DVD playback)
Mode = 1080p50 - 50Hz locked
Freq.H = 56.25KHz
Sync.V = 50.00Hz
Pixel rate = 123.75MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88 (Instead of initial 528 value not suitable for CRT projectors)
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 50Hz Lock

These parameters can also be use on a HTPC with Powerstrip under 'advanced Timings options' menu.

Ending, please note that these values were tested on Sony VPH-G90U/G70 projectors and may be slightly different for others CRT projectors references (because of different 'retrace time')

Hope this helps

John

John, could any of these settings work with my Sony 1271? I'd need to do it interlaced. I have been hoping to find someone who has working 1080i settings for my projector.

I can't remember what is the video bandwidth of the 1271... I assume it is something like 75MHz. If yes, then those 1080p48/50 with reduced porchs setting can't fit for the 1271 since the pixelclock of these mode are about 120MHz.

But if you go interlaced, that can fit.

John

I can't remember what is the video bandwidth of the 1271... I assume it is something like 75MHz. If yes, then those 1080p48/50 with reduced porchs setting can't fit for the 1271 since the VBW of these is 120MHz.

Assuming he will keep the vertical refresh rates at 48/50Hz he will only need half the bandwidth going interlaced. If so, your settings will probably be ok for the 1271.

I can't remember what is the video bandwidth of the 1271... I assume it is something like 75MHz. If yes, then those 1080p48/50 with reduced porchs setting can't fit for the 1271 since the VBW of these is 120MHz.

John

Bandwidth isn't a brick wall limit.

Everything is worth a try ;)

Thanks, I'd love to try to plug these in and get a true HD setup. I can't seem to grok the panoply of settings in Powerstrip on my own. I just want to cut and paste if at all possible. :p

grok the panoply

Easy now...

:p

Another nice resolution sometimes is 1080i @ 120 Hz. This is the same BW as 1080p @ 60 Hz but won't judder on film and it will also be smooth on NTSC and HD video because 120 is divisible by both 60 and by 24. There will be an occasional frame dropped, but you'll never see it.

With this resolution it (of course) depends on the projector, but also seating distance. If you are close you may see scan lines at certain points...

craigr

Here we go Jon :

VP50 parameters for 1080p48 mode (HD-DVD or BRD playback)
Mode = 1080p60 - 47.95Hz locked
Freq.H = 53.946KHz
Sync.V = 47.952Hz
Pixel rate = 118.681MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 48Hz Lock

VP50 parameters for 1080p50 mode (For Europe : SD-DVD or some HD-DVD playback)
Mode = 1080p50 - 50Hz locked
Freq.H = 56.25KHz
Sync.V = 50.00Hz
Pixel rate = 123.75MHz
Syncs = H+/V+
Advanced Parameters :
Hshift=148
Hsize=1920
H_Front=88 (Instead of initial 528 value not suitable for CRT projectors)
H_sync=44
H_Back=148
-----------
Vshift=36
Vsize=1080
V_Front=4
V_sync=5
V_back=36
Aspect ratio - Display = 16/9
Aspect ratio - Screen = 16/9
Colorspace = RGB (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Output level = PC (Only for DVI-D display devices like BG-DVI or IFB-DVI)
Framerate = 50Hz Lock

These parameters can also be use on a HTPC with Powerstrip under 'advanced Timings options' menu.

Ending, please note that these values were tested on Sony VPH-G90U/G70 projectors and may be slightly different for others CRT projectors references (because of different 'retrace time')

Hope this helps

John

Funny John, I just tried my G90 with your settings and then with some that were even more aggressive, but I still can't stand the 48 flicker. What kind of tubes are you running? I have stock tubes with stock phosphor decay...

craigr

Hello Craigr,

I do have Sony stock tubes inside my G90 (they were changed with new at 5000 hours or so, now thay have ~600hrs running time). For me it's very difficult to see the 48Hz flicker at 1080p48 so image is very smooth, not aggressive at all (and judderfree). Thanks to the reduced video porches setting that reduce the flicker very well ...

John

Hey guys,

What would you recommend for a BD808 ?
I guess 1080i is what it's capable of.
The question then is about the flicker and the porch settings.
Anyone have any suggestions on were to start or is just lower them until...no picture, or ?