Toshiba could force the industry's hand by releasing an inexpensive dual-format player ($299 or less). This would then force other CE's to also release DF players, in which case Universal and Paramount could remain HD DVD exclusive without worrying about Blu-ray manufacturing problems and BD disc irrepairability issues.

In addition, current HD DVD owners could be given a nice discount any new dual format player.

Toshiba can't make enough royalties in the long run off of just two studios to keep subsidizing HD DVD. If they make a Combo it WILL be market priced. The days of subsidized hardware and HD DVD are all but over.

Why would they? You are assuming the war is over, and it isn't. They have been reduced to niche, but they certainly haven't thrown in the towel.

I am very happy with my two Toshiba HD DVD players. I'd be willing to consider a Blu-ray or dual format player from Toshiba. I also love their Regza TVs. The failure of HD DVD to win this battle is not something I fault Toshiba for. I will continue to consider the brand for future CE purchases.

I am amused that this seems to assume that deisgning, developing, and manufacturing a new CE product can be done in as much time as it takes to make a sandwich. By the time any of this was done, HD-DVD would be a distant memory.

You are assuming the war is over, and it isn't.

Yeah, it is. Anyone that can't see and accept that is deluding themselves.

I predict Toshiba will market either a Blu-ray or combo player by year's end.

I am amused that this seems to assume that deisgning, developing, and manufacturing a new CE product can be done in as much time as it takes to make a sandwich. By the time any of this was done, HD-DVD would be a distant memory.

That's where you are wrong. Both Sony and Toshiba work together on many projects. They even cross license IP. They are partners in cell processor development. Toshiba fabs produce Sony components, Sony just sold one of their fabs to Toshiba. I'd be willing to guess a DF player from either of these guys has already been prototyped. 5 months tops to produce it.

Why would they? You are assuming the war is over, and it isn't. They have been reduced to niche, but they certainly haven't thrown in the towel.
Toshiba has the towel in hand but is deciding on how and when (it's only been a little over 24 hours) to best throw it. Warner has spoken and Toshiba knows to listen.

Why should they develop a dual player now?

The format is done. They should develop a BD player so as to join the party.

Current HD DVD players were already given a nice discount as the players were heavily subsidized.

Agree with Thebland. It's done. Develop a BR player and start the price wars.

Why should they develop a dual player now?

The format is done. They should develop a BD player so as to join the party.

Current HD DVD players were already given a nice discount as the players were heavily subsidized.

"The format" is the format of 1 billion Chinese. Toshiba might have a dollar or four to spend on it. They don't need to develop anything, BTW. THey co-developed Samsung's player and can simply use that platform. I suspect they have platforms for several different devices anyway.

5 months is ages at this point. Paramount and Universal will probably be releasing Blu-Rays by that time. And I truly doubt that Sony and Toshiba have been developing a dual format player, even if they collaborate on other products. That would be like LSU and Ohio State working on a joint playbook.

That's where you are wrong. Both Sony and Toshiba work together on many projects. They even cross license IP. They are partners in cell processor development. Toshiba fabs produce Sony components, Sony just sold one of their fabs to Toshiba. I'd be willing to guess a DF player from either of these guys has already been prototyped. 5 months tops to produce it.

"The format" is the format of 1 billion Chinese. Toshiba might have a dollar or four to spend on it. They don't need to develop anything, BTW. THey co-developed Samsung's player and can simply use that platform. I suspect they have platforms for several different devices anyway.
Or they may have been proactive in developing a dual format player for some time. Who knows? I think it would be their best move at this point and force other CE's to go dual format with them. Samsung and LG are already doing it.

Dual format players make sense when there are 2 viable formats..Now there is one.

I just don't see the need to do so when a HD DVD player can be had for $100 (or less) yet most dual players are in the $700 and up range. You could buy a standoalone on easch side for far less money.

Toshiba developing a dual player at this juncture would serve little purpose.

It would be nice if Toshiba "rewarded" the hd dvd faithful with a dual format player so that even if hd dvd disappears altogether, they will always have hardware to play their defunct media on.

It would be nice if Toshiba "rewarded" the hd dvd faithful with a dual format player so that even if hd dvd disappears altogether, they will always have hardware to play their defunct media on.

I'm not sure I'd use quite the same verbiage, but yeah, that would be the justification.

Toshiba could force the industry's hand by releasing an inexpensive dual-format player ($299 or less). This would then force other CE's to also release DF players, in which case Universal and Paramount could remain HD DVD exclusive without worrying about Blu-ray manufacturing problems and BD disc irrepairability issues.

In addition, current HD DVD owners could be given a nice discount any new dual format player.Toshiba executives are no doubt burning the midnight oil to decide what to do now. I don't think they are trying to find ways to continue hemorrhaging money to support a format entering its death spiral. They may feel an obligation to develop a dual-format player, but I don't think they'll set a below cost price point on it. If they want to stay in the game, they are going to have to begin moving toward production of Blu-ray products and compete with ALL the other Blu-ray manufacturers.

As Roy Batty says in Blade Runner, "time to die".

I'm not sure I'd use quite the same verbiage, but yeah, that would be the justification.

I believe it was Pioneer, the primary (?) developer of Laserdisc and its last remaining supporter after the DVD onslaught, who made several dual-format (LD/DVD) players before finally letting it all go. But then, there was a reasonably sized, if niche, market for Laserdisc at one point.

They may feel an obligation to develop a dual-format player, but I don't think they'll set a below cost price point on it.


The more cynical amongst us might see that as a final way to squeeze a little more cash out of consumers with misguided notions of loyalty.

Toshiba executives are no doubt burning the midnight oil to decide what to do now. I don't think they are trying to find ways to continue hemorrhaging money to support a format entering its death spiral. They may feel an obligation to develop a dual-format player, but I don't think they'll set a below cost price point on it. If they want to stay in the game, they are going to have to begin moving toward production of Blu-ray products and compete with ALL the other Blu-ray manufacturers.

As Roy Batty says in Blade Runner, "time to die".


Ever hear of a little thing called DVD? Toshiba will sell a ton of them for years to come. They put HD DVD in those and CH DVD players. I figure Toshiba can take care of themselves. Only the BD side had the feeling that they needed to protect and support a giant corporation that didn't give a damn about them.

Ever hear of a little thing called DVD? Toshiba will sell a ton of them for years to come. They put HD DVD in those and CH DVD players. I figure Toshiba can take care of themselves. Only the BD side had the feeling that they needed to protect and support a giant corporation that didn't give a damn about them.Of course Toshiba will be selling DVD players for years to come, as will the consumer electronic manufacturers currently also manufacturing Blu-ray players.

DVD is not a format in its death spiral; but it is a format that is in decline and that decline will continue -- helped along by the coming rise of Blu-ray.

Toshiba should cut their losses and become part of the BDA. Any money spent by HD DVD is a waste at this point. Originally (I had a gut feeling about Warner) that when this happened it wouldn't be the end of HD DVD. I have changed my view now. It is....

BTW Midnightwatcher, are you going to take Warner off your signature before or after May?

I would buy an BD-A1 in a heartbeat.:D

That's where you are wrong. Both Sony and Toshiba work together on many projects. They even cross license IP. They are partners in cell processor development. Toshiba fabs produce Sony components, Sony just sold one of their fabs to Toshiba. I'd be willing to guess a DF player from either of these guys has already been prototyped. 5 months tops to produce it.

They should use the Cell, for that matter, to give it performance at least equal to the PS3. Let it use SD and any of us could pop in a 4GB card and call it a day.

I always loved my Toshiba DVD player. I would buy a dual format player from them.

Ever hear of a little thing called DVD? Toshiba will sell a ton of them for years to come. They put HD DVD in those and CH DVD players. I figure Toshiba can take care of themselves. Only the BD side had the feeling that they needed to protect and support a giant corporation that didn't give a damn about them.

You know, Sony is one of the companies that holds DVD patents and benefits from every DVD that's sold, right there along with Toshiba (and Hitachi, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Time Warner, JVC, Philips and Pioneer...) Maybe DVDs need to be boycotted as well - for the good of the people.

You know, Sony is one of the companies that holds DVD patents and benefits from every DVD that's sold, right there along with Toshiba (and Hitachi, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Time Warner, JVC, Philips and Pioneer...) Maybe DVDs need to be boycotted as well - for the good of the people.
Boycott away.

It would be nice if Toshiba "rewarded" the hd dvd faithful with a dual format player so that even if hd dvd disappears altogether, they will always have hardware to play their defunct media on.
Toshiba IMHO should offer up a $100 rebate towards the inevitable Toshiba Blu Ray player to those that bought HD DVD. .

Why should they develop a dual player now?

The format is done. They should develop a BD player so as to join the party.

Current HD DVD players were already given a nice discount as the players were heavily subsidized.

And the PS3 hasn't been HEAVILY subsidized?:rolleyes:

Why should they develop a dual player now?

The format is done. They should develop a BD player so as to join the party.

Current HD DVD players were already given a nice discount as the players were heavily subsidized.

BTW, Join WHAT Party?

The folks that live on indisposable income party like yourself?

Joe Blow does NOT live on the same planet as YOU Jeff, sorry to disappoint you!

I believe it was Pioneer, the primary (?) developer of Laserdisc and its last remaining supporter after the DVD onslaught, who made several dual-format (LD/DVD) players before finally letting it all go. But then, there was a reasonably sized, if niche, market for Laserdisc at one point.

I don't think this is particularly comparable. LD & DVD are way different physically, just as VHS & Beta and VHS & DVD. A combo-player for any of those combinations is nearly two distinct players stuck in single box w/ the outputs wired together.

Blu-ray and HD DVD conversely are much more alike than they are different. I think it would be a great idea if Toshiba (and others) made BD players that included HD DVD support in much the the same way HD players include DVD support, and SACD support, and DVD-Audio support, and CD support.

Midnightwatcher,

If Toshiba is able to join the BDA and make a BD player, Im sure they would make it a DF player to make it easier on the customers who bought into HD-DVD, but Universal and Paramount releasing their films on HD-DVD will NOT be happening at that point. The BDA would not allow it.

"The format" is the format of 1 billion Chinese.

Sorry, but China hasn't "officially" adopted HD DVD (theere wasn't a single one available that I could find in Beijing as of late November), all they did was sign an agreement to legitimize development of an alternative form of HD DVD if they choose to. The BDA has simply been working with Chinese manufacturers to help them develop players based on "regular" Blu-ray, rather than some watered down spec. As the Chinese middleclass grows, they aren't going to want to spend their money on a watered down version; taht's why U.S. and european brands are already so popular there, despite the price premium.

Blu-ray and HD DVD conversely are much more alike than they are different. I think it would be a great idea if Toshiba (and others) made BD players that included HD DVD support in much the the same way HD players include DVD support, and SACD support, and DVD-Audio support, and CD support.

Fair enough. I was just reminiscing on my Laserdisc days... I still have a stack of discs I haven't had the heart to put in the trash. :(

Midnightwatcher,

If Toshiba is able to join the BDA and make a BD player, Im sure they would make it a DF player to make it easier on the customers who bought into HD-DVD, but Universal and Paramount releasing their films on HD-DVD will NOT be happening at that point. The BDA would not allow it.

Huh?? Since when does the BDA determine what formats an unaffiliated studio can and can not publish in? If Universal & Paramount said they were going to keep releasing in only HD DVD regardless... is the BDA going to send some hitmen after their CEOs or something?

Fair enough. I was just reminiscing on my Laserdisc days... I still have a stack of discs I haven't had the heart to put in the trash. :(

I don't blame you. Laserdiscs were really awesome for their time and there were some awesome releases, some of which haven't been challenged in terms of comprehensiveness to this day. It's sad that the only way to buy a player anymore is through used channels.

I think this is one of the really nice things about the 5-inch digital optical media though - it provides a mechanism that can be used to keep obsolescence due to physical characteristics at bay.

I'll take your word for it, but will still keep on mind that you are at the top of the BD fans boys.

Wow...I guess I should be impressed with myself. I don't even have that high of a post count (Lee, I'm looking at you ;) )

Call me what you want; I owned an HD DVD player for 6 months before I owned a Blu-ray player. I've often been amongst the first to condemn the over-exhuberent proclomations of victory byt he BDA (even while expecting their ultimate victory).

I didn't stop buying HD DDs out of any percieved lack of quality (although I would have liked more lossless tracks), but rather because of the market pressures that were clearly in Blu-rays favor months ago. The only "fanboy" I am is of good data and logical interpetation. The problem is that when an insular group of people (say, a post board) is made up of a population of people who already agree with each other they tend to develop reinforcing arguements that do not mirror reality, and that's exactly what's happened here, with several myths that still rear their heads (my favorite being that there was no Paramount payoff, despite the fact that Toshiba admitted it and the amount was confirmed by Viacom execs).

Anyways, in light of the current events (and those about to unfold next week) I doubt China will be any to eager to adopt their cheaper version of HD DVD, especially since as a country and as individuals they do not want to be seen as technologically backwards or behind the rest of the world (although they still have some catching up to do, in point of fact).

Now wouldn't it be ironic/poetic if Toshiba brought out a fully specced profile 2.0 compliant BD player for $150 and it became the most popular BD player out there - undercutting Sony, Samsung et al? Is there any practical reason why they couldn't do that? If they can produce HD DVD players with the equivalent of BD 2.0 for that price is there a reason they couldn't produce a BD player?

It will undoubtedly be a DVD+/- style player... Or a DVD-A SACD style. Everyone knows there are MANY people (myself included) that will cherish and PREFER my HD DVD collection over my Blu-rays... It will not simply disappear and way to many people are trying to run for the hills.

I will continue to purchase ALL possible titles in HD DVD. It just makes the most sense to me.

Now wouldn't it be ironic/poetic if Toshiba brought out a fully specced profile 2.0 compliant BD player for $150 and it became the most popular BD player out there - undercutting Sony, Samsung et al? Is there any practical reason why they couldn't do that? If they can produce HD DVD players with the equivalent of BD 2.0 for that price is there a reason they couldn't produce a BD player?
Because it would cost Toshiba about $200 to $300 to make one. Toshiba's only reason foe subsidizing HD DVD hardware was the (broken) promise of royalties from software sales in the future. Now that's no longer possible why on earth would Toshiba subsidize a BD player with no chance of royalties?

Toshiba make a combo player! :eek: :D

I think a year from now at CES 2009, toshiba will be announcing a fully compliant Blu ray 2.0 and HD DVD combo player for $300.

I will then buy back into HDM. In the meantime I will continue to use my A3 for great upconversion and hd dvds.

Midnightwatcher,

If Toshiba is able to join the BDA and make a BD player, Im sure they would make it a DF player to make it easier on the customers who bought into HD-DVD, but Universal and Paramount releasing their films on HD-DVD will NOT be happening at that point. The BDA would not allow it.
If Universal and Paramount wanted to continue releasing in HD DVD only the BDA has zero say.

Because it would cost Toshiba about $200 to $300 to make one. Toshiba's only reason foe subsidizing HD DVD hardware was the (broken) promise of royalties from software sales in the future. Now that's no longer possible why on earth would Toshiba subsidize a BD player with no chance of royalties?
Because it would force all other CE's to release dual format players. Toshiba would get payments from those other CE's for HD DVD playback.

I don't blame you. Laserdiscs were really awesome for their time and there were some awesome releases, some of which haven't been challenged in terms of comprehensiveness to this day. It's sad that the only way to buy a player anymore is through used channels.

Yeah. For a long time, my Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Edition on LD was the best (and only) digital version of the theatrical releases that you could get. Plus, it has that awesome book and more bonus features than many DVD's today. That's probably the one reason I still have my LD player around.

is there any legal hurdle to Toshiba using inexpensive OEM'd Funai Bd players, modifying those to also play HD DVD, and then re-badging them under the Tosh brand?

It would be nice if Toshiba "rewarded" the hd dvd faithful with a dual format player so that even if hd dvd disappears altogether, they will always have hardware to play their defunct media on.
I would buy a Toshiba dual-format player for exactly this reason.

I believe it was Pioneer, the primary (?) developer of Laserdisc and its last remaining supporter after the DVD onslaught, who made several dual-format (LD/DVD) players before finally letting it all go. But then, there was a reasonably sized, if niche, market for Laserdisc at one point.
Pioneer was not at all a developer of the Laser Disc format, but was an early supporter that eventually almost ran the whole format, and did introduce many of the later upgrades.

When I was first considering buying a DVD player, I figured to pick the Pioneer combo as the most logical, but it ultimately was better to buy a DVD-only machine.

If Toshiba released a dual-format player, I would still want it to be full-featured (BD 2.0, built-in all-format audio decoders, etc.), as I will want those features anyway before I replace my existing players.

A little more than a year ago I bought an OPPO 981HD for $229to go with my Westy 37w3/PCs/DVR/5.1 speakers. I did this so I could watch the format wars from the sidelines. If I did not have the OPPO I would buy an HD-DVD model that outputs at 1080P, but mostly for the upconversion, not the new content. Although I enjoy watching DVD movies I work from home now, and I usually listen to CDs or Rock concert DVDs without even using PIP on my Westy. When I am not working, I really enjoy Superbit and and animated DVDs.

I have been lurking in the BD/HD/dual-format forums here and elsewhere. The impression I get is that BD hardware is not mature enough for my taste. When I buy multimedia and computer hardware, I figure that it usually has a 24-48 month life expectancy. The BD hardware I see being discuss does not seem to me to be able to last even 24 months. Now, HD-DVD content might turn out to be in short supply.

I think that the BD hardware producers anticipate a time when they will no longer have to subsidize players and this will keep prices from falling as fast as they might otherwise. On the other hand, they might have to pay out less in 'incentives' to content providers. Who knows...

my $.02

edit: The day after I posted this, I read that Toshiba intends to emphasize the DVD upconversion ability of its HD-DVD players. Man I should be making the loooong green!

Wow...I guess I should be impressed with myself. I don't even have that high of a post count (Lee, I'm looking at you ;) )

Call me what you want; I owned an HD DVD player for 6 months before I owned a Blu-ray player. I've often been amongst the first to condemn the over-exhuberent proclomations of victory byt he BDA (even while expecting their ultimate victory).

I didn't stop buying HD DDs out of any percieved lack of quality (although I would have liked more lossless tracks), but rather because of the market pressures that were clearly in Blu-rays favor months ago. The only "fanboy" I am is of good data and logical interpetation. The problem is that when an insular group of people (say, a post board) is made up of a population of people who already agree with each other they tend to develop reinforcing arguements that do not mirror reality, and that's exactly what's happened here, with several myths that still rear their heads (my favorite being that there was no Paramount payoff, despite the fact that Toshiba admitted it and the amount was confirmed by Viacom execs).

Anyways, in light of the current events (and those about to unfold next week) I doubt China will be any to eager to adopt their cheaper version of HD DVD, especially since as a country and as individuals they do not want to be seen as technologically backwards or behind the rest of the world (although they still have some catching up to do, in point of fact).

Clapping hands. :) Good job.

Toshiba could force the industry's hand by releasing an inexpensive dual-format player ($299 or less). This would then force other CE's to also release DF players, in which case Universal and Paramount could remain HD DVD exclusive without worrying about Blu-ray manufacturing problems and BD disc irrepairability issues.

In addition, current HD DVD owners could be given a nice discount any new dual format player.

Interesting thought. I've been enjoying my A30s pricing & mature featureset. Toshi seems well suited to develop a DF player, I'm sure it would be MSRP less than the Sammy 5000 (& potentially much less than the 5500).
AND if they got the TRUE HD & DTS audio right - ZOWIE.

If you don't see many new combo players you know the fix is in--they're trying to kill HD-DVD.

Once Toshiba officially abandons HD-DVD they will be allowed to produce a combo player in return for not making anymore HD-DVD players.

No more movies will be made in HD-DVD but there will always be at least one combo player out there being produced.

This is the way they'll for all purposes kill HD-DVD.

So if you have a collection of HD-DVDs don't worry--you'll always be able to play them--but new titles in HD-DVD will eventually cease to exist.

i really hope that toshiba makes a dual format player, eventhough i have only 9 hddvds and they were all free the PQ is far superior to sddvd and dont want to part with them

What they SHOULD do is include HD DVD playback on ALL their BD players, like how Sony is pretty good in adding SACD support to many of even their lowest priced DVD players (and even the PS3).