WTF, we have several insiders who have stated this. Now you want video? I believe ALL of them before I believe you.
How quick were you to jump on the Paramount/MD pay-off bandwagon?

Paramount did it to take a payoff, Warner did it to end the war. Huge difference. One is FOR Hi Def movies, one was not. Also, the burdon of proof is on HD DVD supporters to prove there WAS a payoff, not the other way around, especially with Warners press release re-affirming there was NO PAYOUT.

Also, the BD insiders have said that the fox speculation is a complete and utter joke, that they had no intention of anything of the kind, and they've yet to be wrong about EVERY SINGLE THING they've ever mentioned. They predicted this warner thing and warned us all months in advance. So yah, i will take THEIR word for it (flawless track record) vs what you "think" are insiders. Thanks!

Benes

Well said. Common Sense isnt so Common these days.

Paramount did it to take a payoff, Warner did it to end the war. Huge difference. One is FOR Hi Def movies, one was not. Also, the burdon of proof is on HD DVD supporters to prove there WAS a payoff, not the other way around, especially with Warners press release re-affirming there was NO PAYOUT.

Also, the BD insiders have said that the fox speculation is a complete and utter joke, that they had no intention of anything of the kind, and they've yet to be wrong about EVERY SINGLE THING they've ever mentioned. They predicted this warner thing and warned us all months in advance. So yah, i will take THEIR word for it (flawless track record) vs what you "think" are insiders. Thanks!

Benes

Well said. Common Sense isnt so Common these days.


Until you have a video of the meeting, a press release with proof of the payoff, a transcript of the meeting ..., then you are just repeating non-sense posted to make ...owners feel like they didnt get creamed and had a chance. Also, what changes if all of the Paramount/Dreamworks stuff was true? Nothing. Buck up. Stop repeating crap all the time please. We need to move on.


:)

WTF, we have several insiders who have stated this."Several insiders"? That's flat-out untrue.

We have one person who mentioned this, and he is a journalist, not an insider.

:)

If Blu-Ray fans are to be asked like Benes or JackBee, we should all IMMEDIATELY discard our HD DVD players, sell our HD DVD movies, not buy ANYTHING that comes out of Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks along with Weinstein and other HD DVD studios that don't fit into "major" category and IMMEDIATELY buy incomplete $300 BD players or PS3s despite the fact that there's only like 10-20 movies that are worth on Blu-Ray and everything else is garbage.

LOL... fantastic

I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. You have never asked me any such thing and I have never given any such answer.

Anyone who thinks Fox was seriously considering switching to HDDVD is delusional. This is the studio that *specifically* asked for the creation of BD+. This is the studio that uses Region Code and BD+ With a Vengeance. What makes you think they would switch to a format that supports neither?

Dude, who should I believe, you or Dave Vaugh, a few other insiders, and several news reports? You lose.

btw, BD+ is compromised, although Marcovision admitted they were working on getting it to work with a certain "other" HDM format. Also, remember all those reports of region-coding on HD DVD?

I have posted proof. Do you have anything that says otherwise?

I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. You have never asked me any such thing and I have never given any such answer.

+1

"Several insiders"? That's flat-out untrue.

We have one person who mentioned this, and he is a journalist, not an insider.

Every account of what happened is the same. I have posted several items confirming this. Do you have ANYTHING that says otherwise?

Why should I believe you over Dave and other legitimate sources?

Blu-ray is going to win now, but blu-fans still keep spreading FUD. Go figure.

WTF, we have several insiders who have stated this. Now you want video? I believe ALL of them before I believe you.
How quick were you to jump on the Paramount/MD pay-off bandwagon?

Originally Posted by Dave Vaugh
But, even so, Warner is looking at the long term and long term, they aren't concerned. They weren't going to "jump ship" to HD DVD unless another studio went with them, and when the other studio (which I can't name as of yet) decided not to jump, then Warner chose the swiftest way to end the format war and made a decision that was best for their business.
(Question from D-X: How about someone under the Newscorp umbrella Dave?)
Bingo!

I think Warner didn't really care about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, they just wanted ONE format. Warner knew by looking at the numbers just like we have if they went HD-DVD alone it would flip the numbers from what we saw all last year except HD-DVD would have the 65% sales and BD would have the 35% sales and things would just drag on as they did in 2007. They needed FOX (I'm pretty sure it was FOX at least) to drop the BD side numbers down to an unsustainable level. The problem as I see it is FOX is not a big HD-DVD fan since there is no region encoding or DRM (FOX is big on both) so I'm sure they were reluctant to switch.

Now, if Warner goes BD only and takes half of the HD-DVD current market share with them then we get to numbers where BD has ~85% market share compaired to ~18% HD-DVD. At this point most seem to agree that HD-DVD is no longer viable and that leaves us with ONE format.

"Several insiders"? That's flat-out untrue.

We have one person who mentioned this, and he is a journalist, not an insider.

Bingo,it's like believing what's printed in the National Enquirer.
Do people actually think that studio execs would be posting insider info in a public forum and risk having the SEC investigate them?

This likely won't happen because the will and resources to make it happen dont' appear to be there on the red team but for grins.

1) 4 key companies on the hd dvd side have to agree to stay the course and pony up some cash to do so. Toshiba, Universal, Microsoft and Paramount. They can't lose one (and MS almost seems to be bowing out already).

2) HD group has to salvage at least a few of their major retailers to continue selling the players.

3) HD group should move all emphasis from selling red case hd dvd to selling hd dvd as an enhancement to standard dvd as combos or twin disks. Standard dvd's will be carried by all major retailers no questions asked. This could be on selected DVD releases, or even on special edition releases rather than replacing all standard dvd releases but it has to be sold as DVD + HD enhanced, not as hd dvd.

4) Because #3 costs money, the HD group has pony up a cost to subisdize the introduction and promotion of DVD+HD enhanced. Let's speculate something like a similar amount of money that it took to for BD to land it's death blow with FOX staying and Warner going exclusive.

5) For hardware support Toshiba needs to execute the partnership with China and get to $99 MSRP asap and lower th 360 addon to $99 MSRP. They can provide their own Mid and high end player offerings.

Won't happen, the companies involved don't seem that committed, but if it did it would stand a chance at a comeback... For grins only :D

Bingo,it's like believing what's printed in the National Enquirer.
Do people actually think that studio execs would be posting insider info in a public forum and risk having the SEC investigate them?

Acutally there was another source, an online article with same story. No time to look it up but a little searching here the forum has it because I posted in the thread about the Warner/FOX story.

I really like the combo idea.

HD DVD can't win. But if it stays alive - it ruins the chance for BD to take over and at least have a shot of doing some damage to DVD.

"Scorched Earth" - ever hear about that?

And PLEASE . . . no diatribes or drivel about what is good for the consumer because the consumer is LAST on the list of what matters to studios and large corporations.

Ok, forget the consumers. Please explain how a "Scorched Earth" strategy benefits Universal or Paramount. I thought they were in business to make money selling Movies.

Lower HD DVD player price wont work because of lack of content. HD DVD lose this war because of content not price or technology.

Can HD DVD hang on? yes if Universal and paramont stay HD DVD exclusive. However, i wonder why they choose to stay HD DVD side, when they know BR users increase rapidly because consumers already assume HD DVD is dead (true or not isnt the point).

Universal and paramont will soon change side or go neutral. The only way HD DVD can survie is one of the Blu Ray exlusive swith to neutral or HD DVD exclusive. Content is everything, without it HD DVD cant survive.

Less content, less hardware and less software sales, and it make the content provider to bail out.

The only way for HD to survive is for Disney to go HD. It will not happen.

Every account of what happened is the same. I have posted several items confirming this. Do you have ANYTHING that says otherwise?How can I prove the lack of something, other than by the fact that it doesn't exist? You are the one claiming "several insiders", the burden of proof is on you. Where are these "several insiders"?
Why should I believe you over Dave and other legitimate sources?Because I didn't actually state anything, just pointed out that you're claiming something that I see no evidence of?
Blu-ray is going to win now, but blu-fans still keep spreading FUD. Go figure.Huh? You're the one making claims.

Toshiba and other CE companies need to permantely knock player prices down to less then $150, plus the HD group needs to gain support of at least one other large studio to stay in the game overall.

Toshiba and other CE companies need to permantely knock player prices down to less then $150, plus the HD group needs to gain support of at least one other large studio to stay in the game overall.

Agreed. I wonder if they'll be able to get Disney/Buena Vista or Fox to go neutral.

Here are my unimportant thoughts on what it will take for HD-DVD to survive and end this format poop.

1. Toshiba works on a dual format player and works with several CEMs to convert existing Blu-ray players to DF or make new ones. Don't worry about profiles, just get them out with at least some sub $400
2. Tell us about the DF players now, something like: "Warners screwed us but we still love HD-DVD, X number of DF player models from these CEMs will be ready in 1-2 years"
3. Change the vocabulary from Blu-ray and HD-DVD to 'HDM'
4. Get studios to release titles in something other than red or blue cases, purple seems logical
5. Put an effing logo on the new 'HDM' player boxes that shows a red case, blue case and purple case with check marks next to them.
6. Tell the studios that format will be irrelevant in a year. Let me choose whatever they want without making confusing statements about switching formats and this is better than that...

Now studios can use any stupid format they choose and just stick it in a purple case (probably with a note to the format for single format players) and not worry about confusion. If this doesn't happen I can't see how any of the recent news will help.

My contrived scenario, J6P goes to BB this week:
J6P: I just read in the news that the format war is over, Warner switched to Blu-ray.
Best Buy: Yes, Blu-ray won
J6P: Finally! I would like to buy a Blu-ray player
BB: Ok, here are a bunch, these are cheaper, these are more money
J6P: I'll buy this random midranged model, now I need movies
BB: this way...
J6P: I want Transformers on BR
BB: Sorry sir, that's a Dreamworks title, they're HD-DVD exclusive
J6P: ? I thought the war was over, Blu-ray won.
BB: They did, but Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks are still HD-DVD
J6P: .... I don't get it. Ok, The Matrix is Warner right? I want that on BR
BB: Sorry sir, Warner hasn't released The Matrix on BR yet
J6P: Oh, Warner was HD-DVD exclusive before the switch?
BB: No.
J6P: ??? ahhh... What can I get on BR?
BB: Ratatouille.
J6P: That's a kids movie right?
BB: Yes but it looks really good on BR
J6P: ....Ok, I guess I'll get that. Can I play it on my portable player for the kids?
BB: No, BR player only
J6P: Are there any movies I can play on both?
BB: No, only HD-DVD released movies that can play on HD and SD players
J6P: ....... i see.....

Now, if the above happened the story can end like this:

BB: Sir, SD-DVD looks really good upconverted, you can buy an upconverting player or pick either HD or BR for now and buy those titles and in 1 year come back for a HDM player which will play both.
J6P: Ok, I can wait longer, thanks for the info.

HDM wins.

There is only one thing that the HD-DVD camp needs to do to ensure its victory - sign Universal & Paramount to HD-DVD exclusive deals for the next 2 years with no escape clauses. There cannot be a "winner" if it is missing 30% of the movies.

Sony, much more so than Toshiba, cannot afford to have this dragged out, and Toshiba should strike at this one weakness. Forget about trying to turn the existing BR studios, concentrate your resources at where it makes the most difference.

You know, I came to this site not long ago expecting to see mature discussions around home theater, and I was excited that maybe I had found a place where people got along but had mature discussions when they disagreed... but what I'm seeing instead is a bunch of hot-headed know-it-alls with a penchant for over-excited "har har! its over!!1 we won!1" statements who think stupid one-liners in response to well thought-out, sincere posts is either clever or witty. Let me tell you, they aren't. They make you look like fools. Some of the Blu-ray supporters here are just disgusting people. Not all of you, but clearly there are some people in here who are getting aroused by this whole format war, and the recent announcement has just taken their pants off.

Keep doing what they are doing. Selling stand alone devices at much lower costs than BluRay. The upcomming hardware prices for profile 1.1 devices from the Blu Crowd is anything but spectacular. I saw Sharp is supposed to introduce 1.1 profile players in May for 399 and 599. Wow thanks.......I thought this consolidation of formats was supposed to help the consumer? Prices like that 5 months from now is not encouraging imo.

Anyways keep pushing out low cost units and hope to flood the market. The only way they get Warner back is if they can show how many more stand alone devices they have in the market.

If that fails have uncle Bill buy Warner and turn them Red :D

This thread is for serious HD DVD fans to discuss realistic options for the HD DVD format in light of the announcement that Warner/NewLine has gone Blu.

Please do not respond if you are a Blu-ray fanboy. I don't want this to turn into a format war discussion.

So, it's been a few days for the news to sink in. I was curious as to what others think might be the next possible steps for the format, if there are any, that might be positive. Sure we can postulate that Paramount and Universal will go nuetral, or they will both go blu, but that's not what I am getting at. Are there any real options for HD DVD to survive and/or win?Hi fritzalla - thank you for starting a useful discussion. I think the first good news is that HD DVD have announced today that they are not giving up. I think Toshiba has nother year or two to prove that HD DVD is better commercially, but it'll be a lot tougher battle in light of the recent news.

Here are some strategies:

1) Paramount and Universal stay HD DVD That is for sure - they have to remain committed and put out loads of releases

I think it is also important to recognize that even tho Warner has switched, it does not change the fact that Bluray seems to have very limited replication capacity at this time (rumoured to be something like only 12 Bluray replication lines) especially when it comes to BD-50 replication. For this reason, I believe that Bluray will be "capacity constrained" for the foreseeable future, and will likely keep Bluray player prices relatively high to ensure that adoption does not happen more quickly than replication capacity, so that they do now have disc shortages in the market.

I expect the Chines BD players to sell for $300, but the other brands to seel for much more. I also expect there to be no increase in release rate on Bluray for much of 2008, and potentially shortages of titles if player sales increase too quickly.

HD DVD can yet take advantage of this, as they have hundreds of HD DVD replication plants available. I suggest adding more HD DVD capacity, as the conversion is relatively cheap, and using this capacity for Twin Disc replication of select DVD releases.

2) Microsoft or CD Partner introduces an XBOX 360 that has a built in HD DVD drive. I am not sure if MS will release HD DVD only consoles right now, but I feel they should definitely add Dual-Format drives to all Xbox SKUs as immediately as possible. This will make the Xbox a much better choice then the PS3 for users who are considering buying the console as a movie player. The key is to continue to get loads of HD DVD players into the market, regardless of how.

3) Microsoft makes major investment with PC vendors to subsized including HD DVD drives in PCs. Dual format players need to become the gold standard.

4) Toshiba announces combo players. What does this do? Toshiba should definitely produce Dual format players - and kick the tail out of other providers on price. Selling quality Dual-format players at $300 will enure that their players will be very popular with buyers, as the "format war" is certainly not over.

5) HD DVD forum/Toshiba or whoever, lowers licensing and prices drop on HDDVD low enought that all manufactures eventually add it as another supported standard in their players. I feel that HD DVD playback should be added to every "upscaling" player sold by Toshiba, and any other brands that can add it quicly. At this point, it is important to have HD DVD playback in many players, even if they are purchased as only upscalers. This will tie-in the strategy of making Twin Disc releases on some popular DVD releases, as Warner's departure will free up a lot of replication capacity.

6) HD DVD sales grow slowly in the next 6 months. To that of 50/50. Partially due to many more HD DVD players that were sold over the holidays. This prompts Toshiba to continue support and Microsoft continues to support it as well. I think this is unlikely given trends.Given the Warner new, it is unlikely to hit 50:50 anytime soon, unless other BD studios go neutral down the road. However, by keeping the user base growing as quickly as replication capacity can keep up, the overall sales of popular titles can exceed equivalent releases on BD, and these numbers can be used later to convince BD studios of the commercial superiority of HD DVD in the future.

7) Paramount/Universal is given big incentives (that is if Sony has any more cash) to go Blu to end it all. Paramount/Universal/WB offer trade up program for current HD DVD owners to swap discs either for free, or for small fee. Not sure I undestand what you are saying here, but I suspect that Bluray will atempt to do offers to get HD DVD owners to "trade in" their HD DVD players for a "good price" on Bluray player - they would probably attempt this to get some of those million HD DVD players out of people's hands, but I think it will be largle unsucessful.

So, most of my scenarious involve HD DVD just hanging in there long enough for combo players to become the norm. Sure it seems long shot, but as technology progresses, all competing formats have been incorporated up to now (other than the two high def audio standards).Toshiba can still help MAKE combo players the reality - particularly if you get Dual-Format playback for the same price as standard BD only playback (particularly also, if that BD playback is only BD1.0).

I have a few other thoughts, but won't share them here...

Keep doing what they are doing. Selling stand alone devices at much lower costs than BluRay. The upcomming hardware prices for profile 1.1 devices from the Blu Crowd is anything but spectacular. I saw Sharp is supposed to introduce 1.1 profile players in May for 399 and 599. Wow thanks.......I thought this consolidation of formats was supposed to help the consumer? Prices like that 5 months from now is not encouraging imo.

Anyways keep pushing out low cost units and hope to flood the market. The only way they get Warner back is if they can show how many more stand alone devices they have in the market.

If that fails have uncle Bill buy Warner and turn them Red :D

Actually the Sharp 1.1 player is MSRP $699

Actually the Sharp 1.1 player is MSRP $699And the Samsung is $400, the Philips is $350, and the Funai is less than $300, all MSRP, which means they'll retail for less. So what's your point?
they have to remain committed and put out loads of releasesWell, Paramount sure ain't doing it. They're releasing less than Fox.
I expect the Chines BD players to sell for $300, but the other brands to seel for much more. I also expect there to be no increase in release rate on Bluray for much of 2008, and potentially shortages of titles if player sales increase too quickly.Well, unfortunately for you, there are BD players already announced for less than $300, and the Chinese haven't even announced yet. Meanwhile, other big BD player brands are dropping under $400.
I am not sure if MS will release HD DVD only consoles right now, but I feel they should definitely add Dual-Format drives to all Xbox SKUs as immediately as possible. This will make the Xbox a much better choice then the PS3 for users who are considering buying the console as a movie player. The key is to continue to get loads of HD DVD players into the market, regardless of how.Again, unfortunately for you, this idea was taken off the plate by MSFT. No "360 Ultimate" or dual-format drives anymore...
Given the Warner new, it is unlikely to hit 50:50 anytime soon, unless other BD studios go neutral down the road. However, by keeping the user base growing as quickly as replication capacity can keep up, the overall sales of popular titles can exceed equivalent releases on BD, and these numbers can be used later to convince BD studios of the commercial superiority of HD DVD in the future.And yet another talking point destroyed: Not only did BD standalones beat HD DVD standalones during the holidays, but apparently Blu-ray's software sales from holiday 2007 alone were 50% of HD DVD's total sales since they launched. Ouch.

Actually the Sharp 1.1 player is MSRP $699

Got a link?

I...

Now, if Warner goes BD only and takes half of the HD-DVD current market share with them then we get to numbers where BD has ~85% market share compaired to ~18% HD-DVD. At this point most seem to agree that HD-DVD is no longer viable and that leaves us with ONE format.

That 18 % market share would be a big problem if that is teh case for HD DVD if all studio's would be neutral.

But now we have 70..80% movies br exclusive and 20..30% movies on HD DVD studio's.

That is more or less the equal market share HD DVD studio's have as market share across the entire HVM. Going br does nothing extra for their market share they already have in the entire movie market.
Only cranking out more movies with a high percentage being blockbusters will.

Going br will only mean that they will have higher manufacturing cost in comparison to HD DVD.

heres one link, says its $700
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/sharps-bd-hp50u-blu-ray-disc-player-with-profile-1-1-support/

...

Blu has out sold hd dvd before the Warner anouncement now with the majority of the studios on they're side the mass will flock to the one true format!

Well considering the Heroes and Star Trek box sets with 10 and more discs.
Those releases combined sold almost equal numbers in discs than br did in 2007.

In case of Star Trek box almost selling 100k in 6weeks that is 1 million discs.

The sad truth is that HD DVD sold far more discs last year than br did.

Well considering the Heroes and Star Trek box sets with 10 and more discs.
Those releases combined sold almost equal numbers in discs than br did in 2007.

In case of Star Trek box almost selling 100k in 6weeks that is 1 million discs.

The sad truth is that HD DVD sold far more discs last year than br did.

Ummm, last I heard, Star Trek was a flop and sold nowhere near 100k copies. I read it was somewhere along the lines of 12,000. Guess that's why Paramount put the second season on a delay (probably permanently).

Well considering the Heroes and Star Trek box sets with 10 and more discs.
Those releases combined sold almost equal numbers in discs than br did in 2007.Uh, no they didn't. Star Trek barely broke 7500 copies first week.
In case of Star Trek box almost selling 100k in 6weeks that is 1 million discs.Sorry, but no one ever said that. The exact quote is as follows: The label predicts that its first high-definition release, the Nov. 20 HD DVD release of Star Trek: Season One, will reach 100,000 units sold.That means, eventually, in the future, they think that 100k units may be sold.
The sad truth is that HD DVD sold far more discs last year than br did.Sad truth from where? There is not a single source that has HD DVD selling close to Blu-ray, let alone selling "far more discs". If Blu-ray can sell half as many discs in less than 2 months than HD DVD can since it was launched, HD DVD ain't outselling anyone. And that's just in the US. In Europe, Blu-ray was outselling 3:1, and in Japan it was almost 25:1.

what about signing cc and bb to exclusive contracts to only sell red? is that legal?

what about signing cc and bb to exclusive contracts to only sell red? is that legal?

Ha ha ha. Oh my. It just gets better as time goes by. :eek:

Why would they do that now that 75%+ of the market is BD-exclusive? Neither has been what you could call a big supporter of HD DVD, and often stock BD software with a 2:1 advantage. No, I'm guessing one or the other will drop HD DVD software soon, and it sounds like Wal-mart is considering the same thing.

Why would they do that now that 75%+ of the market is BD-exclusive? Neither has been what you could call a big supporter of HD DVD, and often stock BD software with a 2:1 advantage. No, I'm guessing one or the other will drop HD DVD software soon, and it sounds like Wal-mart is considering the same thing.

So why do you keep posting to a thread titled "Strategies for HD DVD, serious brainstorming only"?

As I said before:

Blu players are over priced. HD DVD needs to take advantage of that.

Have China crank out as many cheap players as possible, sell them for under $100, stress the upscaling and tackle that market.

We all forget that the real opponent is the 1080p upscalers. They are crushing Blu-ray right now, and Sony is helping that. If HD DVD can replace that market, they will score a big comeback.

A sub $99 upscaler that exclusively plays Paramount, Dreamworks, and Universal HD titles too.

(btw, its still a million to one shot, so don't think I am saying HD DVD can still win)

Ha ha ha. Oh my. It just gets better as time goes by. :eek:

if warner and paramount are only going to make money from receving gifts, why not BB and CC?

one could say that they could make more money by accepting a payout than by selling the discs.

doesn't sound legal to me though.

I think the first good news is that HD DVD have announced today that they are not giving up.
Of course they aren't giving up, they have to pretend to keep their chin up so they can clean/sell as much of the HD-DVD product that remains in the pipeline. If they said they're throwing in the towel, they'd have to eat everything. Expect to see true 'fire sales' coming in the not to distant future.


That is for sure - they have to remain committed and put out loads of releases
What releases do they have left that are capable of supporting the format??? Looks to me like both have already blown their load... the remaining catalog titles (for the most part) aren't worth a hill of beans. Certainly not enough to float a format!


I think it is also important to recognize that even tho Warner has switched, it does not change the fact that Bluray seems to have very limited replication capacity at this time (rumoured to be something like only 12 Bluray replication lines) especially when it comes to BD-50 replication. For this reason, I believe that Bluray will be "capacity constrained" for the foreseeable future, and will likely keep Bluray player prices relatively high to ensure that adoption does not happen more quickly than replication capacity, so that they do now have disc shortages in the market.
You can bet you last dollar (Paso) that supply will largely meet demand. I can assure you Sony would be thrilled to have such heavy demand that they can't supply enough. In that event, I'm sure Sony could quickly expedite production and add manufacturing facilities... it would only be a short term problem, if at all.

I expect the Chines BD players to sell for $300, but the other brands to seel for much more. I also expect there to be no increase in release rate on Bluray for much of 2008, and potentially shortages of titles if player sales increase too quickly.

We've already seen name brand prices @ $300, what makes you think the "Chines" players won't be cheaper???

HD DVD can yet take advantage of this, as they have hundreds of HD DVD replication plants available. I suggest adding more HD DVD capacity, as the conversion is relatively cheap, and using this capacity for Twin Disc replication of select DVD releases.

Why in the world would they increase HD-DVD capacity or production given the writing on the wall?????????????? Twin disc is expensive and since it does nothing for SD DVD owners, and HD-DVD is going down the toilet, why would they waste money producing twin disc for a market that has very small market-share to begin with (and soon to be rapidly shrinking)???

I am not sure if MS will release HD DVD only consoles right now, but I feel they should definitely add Dual-Format drives to all Xbox SKUs as immediately as possible. This will make the Xbox a much better choice then the PS3 for users who are considering buying the console as a movie player. The key is to continue to get loads of HD DVD players into the market, regardless of how.

Again, why produce a costly dual format drive for a small, and soon to be shrinking market??? Please don't use the old "flood the market" theory... we've already seen how ineffective that's been given HD-DVD has failed to flood the market at prices almost half that of BD. The fact is, once one format has largely won, and I think we're now there, there's no point in wasting money producing dual format hardware for a soon to be extinct format... it makes no business sense at all.

Dual format players need to become the gold standard.
Again, why should manufactures waste their money to produce / market a product for a soon to be defunct format? Would you buy a HDM player for $300 which plays the the soon to be standard HDM format (plus SD DVD), or would you rather pay $700+ for the same one which also plays Beta or LD? It makes no sense! I know you'll never buy anything BD, but that's beside the point.

Toshiba should definitely produce Dual format players - and kick the tail out of other providers on price. Selling quality Dual-format players at $300 will enure that their players will be very popular with buyers, as the "format war" is certainly not over.
LOL, Toshiba is heavily subsidizing HD-DVD production (and please don't be naive and think they aren't) and their cheapest player is what $180? The unsubsidized BD players are $300... What makes you think Toshiba can produce a dual format player that will "kick the tail out of other providers on price" without costing them a fortune in substation? Even so, what point is there in the customer having a dual format player if BD has largely won the format war since very little software will be available for it??? Having a HD-DVD drive in future players won't mean anything to the vast majority who have yet to buy into HDM if BD has already been chosen by the marketplace. By the time Toshiba would be able to produce these machines, and have them widely available, it would be too late... never mind they would be loosing their shirt on such a product for no reason.

I feel that HD DVD playback should be added to every "upscaling" player sold by Toshiba, and any other brands that can add it quickly. At this point, it is important to have HD DVD playback in many players, even if they are purchased as only upscalers. This will tie-in the strategy of making Twin Disc releases on some popular DVD releases, as Warner's departure will free up a lot of replication capacity.
Again, a huge waste of money at this point!

Given the Warner new, it is unlikely to hit 50:50 anytime soon, unless other BD studios go neutral down the road. However, by keeping the user base growing as quickly as replication capacity can keep up, the overall sales of popular titles can exceed equivalent releases on BD, and these numbers can be used later to convince BD studios of the commercial superiority of HD DVD in the future.

Now why would any BD studio go neutral now? Even a huge pay out wouldn't make sense since the game is now at "check". They all stand to gain with a single format.

Not sure I undestand what you are saying here, but I suspect that Bluray will atempt to do offers to get HD DVD owners to "trade in" their HD DVD players for a "good price" on Bluray player - they would probably attempt this to get some of those million HD DVD players out of people's hands, but I think it will be largle unsucessful.

LOL, I can picture you rolling down the road with you're 8 track thumpin' away, walking in the house and throwing in a LD... :D HD-DVD is going to die my friend, if you want HDM it's going to be on BD for the next several years to come. ;)

Toshiba can still help MAKE combo players the reality - particularly if you get Dual-Format playback for the same price as standard BD only playback (particularly also, if that BD playback is only BD1.0).
Again, they can't do it and still make a buck... and with the format about to go under, why would they?

I have a few other thoughts, but won't share them here...

Please do!!! :)

I don't get this - I think you guys fail to realize just how vital Warner was for HD-DVD. Their releases have been the backbone of the format and the numbers Grubert posted recently says it all;

2007 YTD HD sales October (both formates) Top 10:
- only 1 HD-DVD exclusive title (Transformers) - 3 Warner releases present.

2007 YTD HD sales August (both formats) Top 20:
- only 1 HD-DVD exclusive title (Batman Begins) - 7 Warner releases present. No releases from Universal or Paramount on the list.

2007 YTD HD sales August (HD-DVD only) Top 20 Listed by numbers sold:
- 4 Warner titles in the Top 5 - 12-13 Warner titles overall on the list.

Link (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=23417)

Newest releases not included, but you get the picture...

Just the fact the The Lord Of The Rings will become a Blu-ray exclusive now sort of says it all...

Just the fact the The Lord Of The Rings will become a Blu-ray exclusive now sort of says it all...

Unless they decide to release those films dual format before June of 08'

Now is not the time for HD DVD to go spineless and give up. They have several hundred thousand users who will continue to buy exclusive content they want- if it remains exclusive and priced right. and there are tens of thousands of dual format users who will do the same if it is made clear that UNi and Paramount are not bolting anytime soon.
In the meantime, get to work on those dual format players. That way you can keep your current base, and feed off a new larger, bd one.But the cost involved in servicing that small number of users isn't not worth the expense.

Just the fact the The Lord Of The Rings will become a Blu-ray exclusive now sort of says it all...

Except they said it will not be the extended editions. I hope that changes, but I doubt it.

Actually this was a thread I started that was moved here. Read my whole post it is about an exit strategy for Toshiba and it is good for both companies and the customers. BDA gets what they want, Toshiba releases the studios they have and HD DVD loyalists, even the most rigid, Will be glad that thier software is still supported. If you dont understand I dont know what to say its pretty black and white.:)What financial incentive does Toshiba have to support the small number of HD DVD supporters if the format is going nowhere with no growth possiblities? That's the black and white I was looking at.

I wonder how Sony kept and keeps explaining loss of BILLIONS of dollars to it's shareholders?


Have you looked at the recent financial statements for Sony? They have turned a profit in recent quarters because of how well their other divisions have been doing. They keep posting a profit, and the shareholders will keep quiet. It is easily seen as an investment in the future.

So are the mods on vacation or something? Every rule of conduct for this forum has been broken numerous times on this thread. Wow! Looks like this forum is going right back to where it was a couple of months ago - the abyss!

Well, unfortunately for you, there are BD players already announced for less than $300, and the Chinese haven't even announced yet. Meanwhile, other big BD player brands are dropping under $400.Hmmm... must have missed that - can you provide links or info?

Only $300 BD player I'm hearing about is Funai - unless you're talking about firesales on old BD 1.0 players.

Since the announcement, the Amazon rankings for HD-DVD have cratered. Now Amazon is not the entire market, but I'm sure that's what is happening everywhere. The media and the public have properly concluded that HD-DVD is all but dead. There have been no comments from Toshiba, Universal, or Paramount that suggest they will be doing anyhing heroic to forestall the inveitable, which is the only logical thing to do since they have shareholders and businesses to run.

I understand the need to vent, but none of this will happen. Smart executives do not spend millions on hopeless last-ditch efforts to save dead products. And Universal and Warner are likely secretly happy there will be one format, as that will maximize the possibility that HDM will be a serious market.

It is all over but the posting on AVS.

Hmmm... must have missed that - can you provide links or info?

Only $300 BD player I'm hearing about is Funai - unless you're talking about firesales on old BD 1.0 players.

Well I guess the fire sale didn't work for Toshiba... :eek:

I love all of these know-it-all BR guys. Great stuff.

(sarcasm)

Of course they aren't giving up, they have to pretend to keep their chin up so they can clean/sell as much of the HD-DVD product that remains in the pipeline. If they said they're throwing in the towel, they'd have to eat everything. Expect to see true 'fire sales' coming in the not to distant future.



What releases do they have left that are capable of supporting the format??? Looks to me like both have already blown their load... the remaining catalog titles (for the most part) aren't worth a hill of beans. Certainly not enough to float a format!



You can bet you last dollar (Paso) that supply will largely meet demand. I can assure you Sony would be thrilled to have such heavy demand that they can't supply enough. In that event, I'm sure Sony could quickly expedite production and add manufacturing facilities... it would only be a short term problem, if at all.



We've already seen name brand prices @ $300, what makes you think the "Chines" players won't be cheaper???



Why in the world would they increase HD-DVD capacity or production given the writing on the wall?????????????? Twin disc is expensive and since it does nothing for SD DVD owners, and HD-DVD is going down the toilet, why would they waste money producing twin disc for a market that has very small market-share to begin with (and soon to be rapidly shrinking)???



Again, why produce a costly dual format drive for a small, and soon to be shrinking market??? Please don't use the old "flood the market" theory... we've already seen how ineffective that's been given HD-DVD has failed to flood the market at prices almost half that of BD. The fact is, once one format has largely won, and I think we're now there, there's no point in wasting money producing dual format hardware for a soon to be extinct format... it makes no business sense at all.


Again, why should manufactures waste their money to produce / market a product for a soon to be defunct format? Would you buy a HDM player for $300 which plays the the soon to be standard HDM format (plus SD DVD), or would you rather pay $700+ for the same one which also plays Beta or LD? It makes no sense! I know you'll never buy anything BD, but that's beside the point.


LOL, Toshiba is heavily subsidizing HD-DVD production (and please don't be naive and think they aren't) and their cheapest player is what $180? The unsubsidized BD players are $300... What makes you think Toshiba can produce a dual format player that will "kick the tail out of other providers on price" without costing them a fortune in substation? Even so, what point is there in the customer having a dual format player if BD has largely won the format war since very little software will be available for it??? Having a HD-DVD drive in future players won't mean anything to the vast majority who have yet to buy into HDM if BD has already been chosen by the marketplace. By the time Toshiba would be able to produce these machines, and have them widely available, it would be too late... never mind they would be loosing their shirt on such a product for no reason.


Again, a huge waste of money at this point!



Now why would any BD studio go neutral now? Even a huge pay out wouldn't make sense since the game is now at "check". They all stand to gain with a single format.



LOL, I can picture you rolling down the road with you're 8 track thumpin' away, walking in the house and throwing in a LD... :D HD-DVD is going to die my friend, if you want HDM it's going to be on BD for the next several years to come. ;)


Again, they can't do it and still make a buck... and with the format about to go under, why would they?



Please do!!! :)
How old are you?

HD-DVD is a dead format now.

Stop trying to rationalize it. Buy a Blu-Ray and move on with your lives.

HD-DVD is a dead format now.

Stop trying to rationalize it. Buy a Blu-Ray and move on with your lives.

I don't need anymore coasters over the next few years.

I want to start my post by saying I don't own either a HD-DVD or a bluray player.. I game on a xbox360 on a 46 inch 1080p LCD and I would like this stupid war to be over so I can go out and buy a damm HDM player without worrying about what format the movies I like will be released on..


From looking at the numbers it looks clear to me that bluray has this won and this format war is just stopping people like me from going to HDM now...

The best thing that can happen at this point for people like me ( the majority) is for HD-DVD to give up and then i can go buy a new PS3 and play movies on it.

HD-DVD is a dead format now.

Stop trying to rationalize it. Buy a Blu-Ray and move on with your lives.

As the Wall Street Journal noted today, both formats are likely to be dead in the not-too-distant future. Just buy movies and enjoy until the next best thing comes along...

As the Wall Street Journal noted today, both formats are likely to be dead in the not-too-distant future. Just buy movies and enjoy until the next best thing comes along...

Honestly, this is probably the most accurate statement (wall st journal).

Unless they decide to release those films dual format before June of 08'

Why would they do that?

I don't need anymore coasters over the next few years.

Then stop buying HD DVDs and sell what you have now. Save you it can!

Save you it can!

Huh?

Huh?

Not a yoda fan huh.

Save The Cheerleader Save The World!

As the Wall Street Journal noted today, both formats are likely to be dead in the not-too-distant future. Just buy movies and enjoy until the next best thing comes along...
Yes, we all get our technical advice from the WSJ.
They hold the crystalball for HDM and foresee it. :rolleyes:

The best thing that can happen at this point for people like me ( the majority) is for HD-DVD to give up and then i can go buy a new PS3 and play movies on it.

Why does HD DVD need to "give up" in order for you to buy a PS3? If you want one, go buy it! I didn't want to have to buy Blu-Ray, but now I am -- got 20 titles in 2 days after the WB announcement. It sucks for me, but that's life! At least now I don't have to worry about which friggin' studio is releasing which friggin' movies! :rolleyes:

This whole format war has been an abomination, and that's the same way it ended. What I can't stand is having to read garbage from idiots like Michael Bay -- "See, I told you it was the better format!" In the end, it was all about who had the deeper pockets and could grease the studios and retailers the most. Get prepared for more $45 - $50 releases from Sony and FOX, 'cause they're right on the horizon!

right, 'cause that's exactly what happened with dvd's when the DIVX format died. :rolleyes: no, it didn't did it?
Blu ray is not sony alone. all of the many CE companies and movie studios in the BDA are still going to be competing for your dollars, keeping prices in check. Which is EXACTLY how DVD worked. single format does not equal sony monopoly.

HD-DVD is a dead format now.
I will embrace denial of that until they have 0 studios left.

Stop trying to rationalize it. Buy a Blu-Ray and move on with your lives.

No.

How about a direct sales model for HD-DVD? Some think the retailers will dump HD-DVD in any case, so why not? They're going to stop carrying your DVD's? Not.

With direct sales, the "red" studios can charge $[10] sell a ton, make their profit margin and more. We know BD is internet-challenged :)

Got to keep the downward price pressure on, or we'll have another LD/DVHS.

Bring out 51GB discs and 101GB versions.
Enable full HD at 50p. Quadruple the bandwidth. Get all studios to go neutral (I don't see how it's legal for studios to be paid to not release on certain formats). Enable 4000x2000 and 10 bit colour palettes with 4:4:4.
Add support for Hologram Super-Hires HDTV like in Startrek:TNG.

Bring out 51GB discs and 101GB versions.
Enable full HD at 50p. Quadruple the bandwidth. Get all studios to go neutral (I don't see how it's legal for studios to be paid to not release on certain formats). Enable 4000x2000 and 10 bit colour palettes with 4:4:4.
Add support for Hologram Super-Hires HDTV like in Startrek:TNG.

I know not all HD DVD supporters are this delusional, but I had to highlight this.

OTOH, it's really not very different to not getting that even if Toshiba wants to continue, and can keep Paramount and Universal on-side, they're still going to have to persuade retailers to keep faith. At a certain point, Best Buy is going to decide that dropping the red cases is more profitable than taking the cash for that shelf space. And you can bet the BDA will be making that point, and generous offers for the placement.

And that's if Toshiba is fighting on, and Paramount and Universal actually announce some titles, which I note there hasn't been much of, unlike after the Paramount defection.

Bring out 51GB discs and 101GB versions.
Enable full HD at 50p. Quadruple the bandwidth. Get all studios to go neutral (I don't see how it's legal for studios to be paid to not release on certain formats). Enable 4000x2000 and 10 bit colour palettes with 4:4:4.
Add support for Hologram Super-Hires HDTV like in Startrek:TNG.


Joe . . . . You asked for it . . . YOU got it!

Ta Da!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/unicorns-rainbow-1.jpg

As the Wall Street Journal noted today, both formats are likely to be dead in the not-too-distant future. Just buy movies and enjoy until the next best thing comes along...

This is true. It's a possibility. People act like if Blu-ray is the only 1080p HD format that they are in the clear and there is not chance that it will ever not be supported. But, if Blu-ray does not take off and remains niche and simply proves to be non-profitable, then it will die too and you may be left with a whole bunch of blu coasters to go with your red ones.

Combo all new releases from Universal and Paramount and put them in standard DVD cases.. not red ones.. and then put a nice pamphlet inside the inside cover and a 1 minute "On the other side of this disc is HD-DVD.. all you need is an affordable player" commercial.

Check. Mate.

But the odds of that are slim to none.

Are you guys reading some secret WSJ article that only HD DVD fans can read? The one I see says nothing about both formats dying soon. There's one line about "the not-too-distant future", bu then it goes on to a bitter HD DVD PRG consultant saying HDM possibly being overtaken in 5-10 years, which gives it roughly the same lifecycle as DVD.

Are you guys reading some secret WSJ article that only HD DVD fans can read? The one I see says nothing about both formats dying soon. There's one line about "the not-too-distant future", bu then it goes on to a bitter HD DVD PRG consultant saying HDM possibly being overtaken in 5-10 years, which gives it roughly the same lifecycle as DVD.

In 5 to 10 years HDM will be 7 to 12 years old while DVD will be 14 to 19 years old. DVD is not going away . . . hardly.

HD-DVD is a dead format now.

Stop trying to rationalize it. Buy a Blu-Ray and move on with your lives.

I did (a 60Gb PS3), but there won't be any Blu-Ray releases with anything close to the interactivity and features (profile 2.0) as my HD-DVD titles for about another year. So I should just settle for paying $5-$15 more per title and with fewer features why?

You want consumer confusion? Try explaining Blu-Ray player profiles to the average walmart shopper. Yes, the same people that don't know and cannot tell the difference between 1080i & 1080p, let alone PCM & Bitstream.

In 5 to 10 years HDM will be 7 to 12 years old while DVD will be 14 to 19 years old. DVD is not going away . . . hardly.

In another 5 to 10 years DVD will be gone, like VHS and LD is now.

Combo all new releases from Universal and Paramount and put them in standard DVD cases.. not red ones.. and then put a nice pamphlet inside the inside cover and a 1 minute "On the other side of this disc is HD-DVD.. all you need is an affordable player" commercial.

Check. Mate.

But the odds of that are slim to none.

Again, another nice stealth idea. I like it. Hide it in plain sight.

In another thread, I suggested just making HD DVD players and calling them Upconverting DVD players. The A3 and A30 (heck, even the A35) are on par price-wise with some other upconverting DVD players, in fact, cheaper than some Denons and other brands.

Just list HD DVD as another format on the box and the manual, and have some documentation explaining what extra needs to be set up if the intention is to play HD DVDs (show the menus we've all become accustomed to for HD DVD setup) and let the masses "discover" it or trip over it themselves. Then, they have these "stealth combos" disguised as SD DVDs to put into these "stealth HD DVD players" in cognito as upconverting DVD players.

Anyone need a rope? :D

What if: 1. Microsoft uses the format as an X-box storage medium; 2. Microsoft bundles a high-quality HD-DVD plug-in for MCE (couldn't they do that for minimal cost?); and 3. Toshiba works to promote HD-compatible PC drives.

If that were done, within a couple of years there would be several million HD-DVD-capable players in consumer hands.

I was diehard red before the 4th. On the day after Warner's announcement, I bought my first Blu-ray movies. I let go. It's not hard, and it's not that big of a deal.

That said, I do not believe HD DVD can pull out of this. They would need a strategy that would make the world's greatest military leaders faint in awe.

With that, here is the only thing, in my opinion, that can save HD DVD.

1. There was a post here about Twin HD DVDs being the only option, which is a good idea.
2. Drop A3 to 99$
3. Include HD DVD drive in Xbox 360 without raising the price more than 50$ (if at all) and offer a program that will let you send in your 360 and have it replaced with an HD DVD drive. This is for movies only, not games.
4. Get Disney over to HD DVD. There have been rumors that this will happen, but I think it is extremely unlikely, even with the TL51s.
5. Considering all major studios are exclusive now, Toshiba would have to pay off a studio that does not have an exclusivity contract to go exclusive for HD DVD (or even neutral).
6. Give away HD DVD players with the purchase of new Toshiba televisions
7. Drop movie prices to the same as DVD, but with the Twin Discs.
8. Finally, release affordable burners and blank media

However, I am not holding my breath. The chances of what I just outlined happening is low.


I just want one format. Doesn't matter which one, now.

I should also add that if Toshiba was telling the truth about how Warner's move was a breach of contract, then they can report them to the FTC or sue them, and make them go neutral again.

I doubt that'll happen.

Looks like another one is leaving the fold

http://gizmodo.com/341983/hd-dvd-really-dead-now-paramount-following-warner-to-blu+ray+only-party

Any more brainstorming ideas???

Here are my idea of how Toshiba can survive and even win this format war.

Right now Toshiba's unique strengths are:

1) Combo and TL51 Hybrid Disc
2) Majority Control of the DVD IP
3) Microsoft with HDi and not Java on HD DVD
4) Universal and Paramount
5) More consumer friendly with lower price of the hardware and software
6) A possible legal action again Warner for breach of contract.


1) Combo and TL51 Hybrid Disc
This is Toshiba biggest strength and trojan horse againt the PS3 trojan horse. I agree with everyone on this board. Have Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks, and all the HD DVD content partners release only Combos and Hybrid disc, and stop the production of DVD only disc. Toshiba will still make money due to the DVD IP, but should offer to subsidize the HD-DVD side for the next year. Combine with a strong marketing push that when these consumers are ready, they can upgrade their players to get HD content without rebuying new discs. Of course prices needs to be comparable to DVD releases, maybe $2-$3 more at most. This will also create the economies of scales for HD DVD and should help drive the prices lower for HD DVD media in general. Studios should agree to this because consumers buy SD or HD, rarely will they buy both. So a price above SD but lower than HD is a good medium with the number or sales they can create with this.

A lot of early adapter like the art, therefore do not like combos, but the casual consumers couldn't care less and they are the target market that Toshiba should listen too. Nintendo proved this target audience with the Wii.

I also like that idea that retailers and even BLOCKBUSTER will be forced to carry combos and hybrids unless they don't want to rent out any new Univeral or Paramount movies.

2) Majority Control of the DVD IP
Even if HD DVD can't win, it is in Toshiba's best interest to make BR fail. This way, movie studios will continue to support DVD and Toshiba still gets royalties for the DVD IP. The simple fact that they can slow down or eliminate BR adoption will benefit them with more DVD sales. Knowing that HD DVD will not go down with a strong fight can be a bargaining too with the studio execs. This also means that Toshiba has more money to throw around then Sony. Seeing that Sony has already spent a lot on securing exclusives. Toshiba should not hold back and start spending the money they need to spend for exclusives of making hardware and software cheaper.

3) Microsoft with HDi and not Java on HD DVD
MS hates Java, and Java is part of the Blu-Ray, so Microsoft will never directly support BR. Even if they have BR drives on Xbox 360, they will not get the official BR logo because it will not support Java and forget about support for BD-Live. With this in mind, it is in MS best interest to support HD DVD or not support either. However, if BR wins, MS will be in a uncomfortable situation about supporting BR and Java, so Toshiba with the right incentives should push MS to include HD DVD into Xbox360, just so Java will not win out.

4) Universal and Paramount
Although only 2 studios, they are 2 bigs studios with a huge catalog of movies. These 2 studios are enough to force people to consider dual format. They need to announcement clear intentional support for HD DVD so that people know that HD DVD is the only way to get their movies in HD. It would also give an HD DVD equipped Xbox360 ultimate a much more attractive buy.

5) More consumer friendly with lower price of the hardware and software
It is of no doubt that HD DVD and its media is cheaper to make. So far we see a drop in hardware prices to the point where the mass market can afford it, but on the software side, it is still too expensive. Now, it is not enough to be cheaper, they need to be cheaper with a lot more value. So the combos and hybrids are needed at close to regular DVD prices. If they can get HD DVD hardware to $150 with a strong push in the media to let people know that they are alive and kicking, it will offset the perception that the lower cost means the media is dying.

6) A possible legal action again Warner for breach of contract.
If a contract was breached, they need to file a lawsuit against Warner and force them back to neutrality. If the court finds them are in breach of contract, the court can also void any agreement Warner had with Sony. They don't need to worry about Warner's feelings afterward since Warner screwed them first. This will also show other studios to take their contract seriously and not to think of it as meaningless paper. Afterall, that is what contracts are for.


A new marketing direction.
All these ideas are great, but they will also need to have a new marketing direction. I propose that they appeal to movie watchers who enjoys DVD, but are not ready to upgrade their TVs and DVD players due to price or other reason. Warner noted that people have stop purchasing DVD too because they want to see which HDM will win out before buying. So I think it would be best that Toshiba takes complete advantage of Hybrids and Combos with an emphasis that the HD content is a bonus. That way, they don't feel that they are buying into a HD format since it is only a bonus, but Knowing that HD is a free is an advantage. When they are ready to upgrade their TV and DVD player, the large collection of trojan house Combo and Hybrids will allow them to choose a HD DVD Player. Of course this will work if the Combos and Hybrids are very close in price to regular DVDs. People shouldn't feel that they are abandoning their DVD collection and combos/hybrids are the key in the transition. But as stated, they need to stop DVD only production. Combo and Hybrids are the key to Toshiba's success.

It is beginning to pain me that people spend the time and energy to draft and edit these posts.

So let me get this straight. According to the BDA and their fans:

1) HD DVD is dead and Bluray won

2) Bluray is the overwhelming choice of consumers.

If that's true then why do they keep telling us to stop buying HD DVD players/movies and buy BDs? I thought HD DVD was dead and the consumers overwhelming are in favor of BD?? Aren't we already doing that? Do we really need Cnet telling people to NOT buy HD DVD on their website?

I can just imagine the Sony rep screaming at me at Future Shop in March when I pick up season 2 of Star Trek on HD DVD...."Hey, put that down, it's not what you want. Here at Sony, we know what YOU really want (because we secretly monitor your viewing and listening habits) and besides, HD DVD died 2 years ago, didn't you hear the monthly announcements for the past 2 years? PUT THAT DISC DOWN WE WOOOONNNNNN!!!!!!! WE WONNNN!!!"

So let me get this straight. According to the BDA and their fans:

1) HD DVD is dead and Bluray won

2) Bluray is the overwhelming choice of consumers.

If that's true then why do they keep telling us to stop buying HD DVD players/movies and buy BDs? I thought HD DVD was dead and the consumers overwhelming are in favor of BD?? Aren't we already doing that? Do we really need Cnet telling people to NOT buy HD DVD on their website?

I can just imagine the Sony rep screaming at me at Future Shop in March when I pick up season 2 of Star Trek on HD DVD...."Hey, put that down, it's not what you want. Here at Sony, we know what YOU really want (because we secretly monitor your viewing and listening habits) and besides, HD DVD died 2 years ago, didn't you hear the monthly announcements for the past 2 years? PUT THAT DISC DOWN WE WOOOONNNNNN!!!!!!! WE WONNNN!!!"

A very accurate summary.

Paramount and Universal release a few hundred titles.. and the balance will shift once again... It's easy to take back Sony's thunder. But I don't think anyone really wants to at this point.. especially given just how tiny and insignificant the market is right now.

Fritzilla, while you have obviously put a lot of effort and thought behind the post, the message is very clear after the Warner announcement.

It is best for all folks (red/blue/purple) to get behind the Blu-Ray format to ensure its success over SD-DVD.

As an HD-DVD supporter I just think the following needs to happen.

1) Toshiba/Universal/Paramount should concede the war and work towards announcing schedules for BD releases.
2) BDA and Toshiba should work towards helping the million or so consumers who chose the defeated format and ensure HD-DVD gets legacy support somewhere down the line in a few players.
3) BDA should continue with aggressive marketing of the format because defeating SD-DVD and taking the format beyond enthusiast support is going to take a hell lot of work.
4) For new HD-DVD owners, WB (who I still think screwed the consumer by not announcing this pre-christmas and arguably assisted in creating upwards of 200k new HD-DVD owners) should come up with some exchange program/coupons for loyal customers to purchase new BD titles.
5) Work at increased pace towards solving the whole profile nonsense and announce full-spec players soon.

Now I realize, BDA/WB need do nothing of the sort and milk the victory for what it is worth, but if they are serious about the war against SD-DVD, they will do good by helping early adopters and the few hundred thousand folks who jumped over the Christmas period switch over seamlessly to the Blu-side.

I, for one, welcome my new Blu overlords. The war's over guys and it was a good fight which ultimately helped consumers on both sides but let's be gracious in letting it go.

Time to move on. If it's Blu Ray, then it's blu ray. What do you get to lose with going one single format. I also agree with the poster that an exchange program should go in effect so that those of us that purchased WB's HD DVDs can exchange them for Blu Rays.

Wow, more ways of a miracle comeback and/or sabotage of the HD Movie industry. I guess some people are still in the "anger" stage of the loss. Few more weeks of this and everyone will be at the Acceptance point. Sad to see grown men (or at least i hope they are) becoming mental cases and "expert analytical specialists" because they picked the wrong format.

Wow, more ways of a miracle comeback and/or sabotage of the HD Movie industry. I guess some people are still in the "anger" stage of the loss. Few more weeks of this and everyone will be at the Acceptance point. Sad to see grown men (or at least i hope they are) becoming mental cases and "expert analytical specialists" because they picked the wrong format.

What exactly do you gain by coming into the thread and insulting people?

What exactly do you gain by coming into the thread and insulting people?

Hello, he gains me....what type of insult would you prefer ???

Wow, you BR fans are purposely coming into HD DVD Threads and throwing around insults. Viral marketers and BR fanboys are out in full tonight.

I am a complete HD DVD fanatic, almost to the point where you can call me a fanboy. I have been singing the praises of HD DVD, convincing friends to buy HD DVD players and buying them as gifts for the family.

At this point, I don't know what they can do to bounce back. The biggest issue I can see from reading these forums is consumer confidence is gone! There are so many threads about people dumping their stuff on ebay.

I use to work for a studio that is a Blu-ray supporter. I was constantly sending my buddies who are VPs there emails about how great HD DVD, sending them links and articles. I even had one of these VPs over at my house showing off my HD DVD collection which my XA2 on a 60 inch Pioneer plasma. He was impressed but he kept telling me that Blu-ray will be the survivor until downloads take over. There is just more to this format war than he can say or I would understand he told me.

Today I called him and admitted defeat. I told him it looks like Blu-ray may be getting very close to a victory but I will never say that Blu-ray is any better. If anything, they might be equal. His reply was, here's some inside information, never doubt me and expect some more nails very soon in the HD DVD coffin.

Wow, you BR fans are purposely coming into HD DVD Threads and throwing around insults. Viral marketers and BR fanboys are out in full tonight.Hmmm, let me check to see what area we're in...

AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HDTV Software Media Discussion

Nope, don't see the words "HD DVD Software" or "HD DVD Hardware", do you? The OP knew that there were HD DVD-specific sections, yet he chose to post here. Not our problem.

Hmmm, let me check to see what area we're in...

AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HDTV Software Media Discussion

Nope, don't see the words "HD DVD Software" or "HD DVD Hardware", do you? The OP knew that there were HD DVD-specific sections, yet he chose to post here. Not our problem.

ah so I can go troll every bluray thread in this sub forum cause its not in the bluray forum ?

Thanks for letting me know troll.


Hows that sweeny todd song go ? There is a hole in the world and its full of **** and the people who inhabit it are full of **** and its called AVS Blu-ray &hd DVD Areas !

I think that could work

Hmmm, let me check to see what area we're in...

AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HDTV Software Media Discussion

Nope, don't see the words "HD DVD Software" or "HD DVD Hardware", do you? The OP knew that there were HD DVD-specific sections, yet he chose to post here. Not our problem.

And where does this say you have a license to be a troll?

I am a complete HD DVD fanatic, almost to the point where you can call me a fanboy. I have been singing the praises of HD DVD, convincing friends to buy HD DVD players and buying them as gifts for the family.

At this point, I don't know what they can do to bounce back. The biggest issue I can see from reading these forums is consumer confidence is gone! There are so many threads about people dumping their stuff on ebay.

I use to work for a studio that is a Blu-ray supporter. I was constantly sending my buddies who are VPs there emails about how great HD DVD, sending them links and articles. I even had one of these VPs over at my house showing off my HD DVD collection which my XA2 on a 60 inch Pioneer plasma. He was impressed but he kept telling me that Blu-ray will be the survivor until downloads take over. There is just more to this format war than he can say or I would understand he told me.

Today I called him and admitted defeat. I told him it looks like Blu-ray may be getting very close to a victory but I will never say that Blu-ray is any better. If anything, they might be equal. His reply was, here's some inside information, never doubt me and expect some more nails very soon in the HD DVD coffin.

I agree with you to some extent, but I think the fight is just harder and not impossible. I'll give them till May when Warner switches over, if no new dvelops by then, I will admit HD DVD is defeated. I think it is premature to declare them dead again and I like to give them a chance to strike back, if they could.

I agree with you to some extent, but I think the fight is just harder and not impossible. I'll give them till May when Warner switches over, if no new dvelops by then, I will admit HD DVD is defeated. I think it is premature to declare them dead again and I like to give them a chance to strike back, if they could.

well put...

ah so I can go troll every bluray thread in this sub forum cause its not in the bluray forum ?

Thanks for letting me know troll.And where does this say you have a license to be a troll?I'm sorry that the facts upset you so much, but there's no reason to resort to name-calling.

Hmmm, let me check to see what area we're in...

AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HDTV Software Media Discussion

Nope, don't see the words "HD DVD Software" or "HD DVD Hardware", do you? The OP knew that there were HD DVD-specific sections, yet he chose to post here. Not our problem.

Title of OP is "Strategies for HD DVD, serious brainstorming only" not sniping or blu-ray fanboy thread cr@pping.

Question ot everyone else...what will happen in 6 months when people like this have nothing to do?

Back to the OP...

How long till be see the black market BR-ripped to HD DVDs for sale on the internet?

Also, companies like Nintendo prefer formats that are not main-stream. They shy away from CD and DVD because it is too easy for average people to burn pirated SW and modify their players to use it. Do you think that HD DVd may be a solution for them? I doubt there will be too many people with HD DVD burners in the future. Also, I doubt Nintendo would want to put a Sony plaer in their next game console.

Hmmm, let me check to see what area we're in...

AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HDTV Software Media Discussion

Nope, don't see the words "HD DVD Software" or "HD DVD Hardware", do you? The OP knew that there were HD DVD-specific sections, yet he chose to post here. Not our problem.

Then why not respects the OP request and post some suggestions for strategy changes?

There is an opportunity to take advantage of the huge HD DVD production capacity to make all new releases as combos. That's impossible for BD and HD DVD sales would instantly overwhelm BD sales. Who wins now?

There is an opportunity to take advantage of the huge HD DVD production capacity to make all new releases as combos. That's impossible for BD and HD DVD sales would instantly overwhelm BD sales. Who wins now?

Ronald McDonald would win. America gets fatter due to being depressed due to having no cover art on their discs because they are all combos and the US goes into a spiral of overweight people all wanting cover art and asking why they cant get it. Think of the children, WayneL. Think of them.

Denial. It is not just a river in Egypt..

Remember Mark Twain?

There is an opportunity to take advantage of the huge HD DVD production capacity to make all new releases as combos. That's impossible for BD and HD DVD sales would instantly overwhelm BD sales. Who wins now?HD DVD combo sales failed to come close to BD sales on a good day. Not only that, they make HD DVD combos, and no studio will be able to say what percentage of sales are for HD DVD players. The only way they could specifically make a profit would be to charge HD DVD prices, which brings us back to HD DVD combo sales failing to touch BD sales again.

I'm sorry that the facts upset you so much, but there's no reason to resort to name-calling.

You get what you dish out.

For HD DVD to survive, Tosh has to make it public domain/open source, start selling burners for $100, players for $75, disks for $2 each, and then offer downloads for all their catalog and new releases for about $5.

This is my opinion.

I'd go crazy if HD DVD went open source.

HD DVD combo sales failed to come close to BD sales on a good day. Not only that, they make HD DVD combos, and no studio will be able to say what percentage of sales are for HD DVD players. The only way they could specifically make a profit would be to charge HD DVD prices, which brings us back to HD DVD combo sales failing to touch BD sales again.

It sounds like this bothers you.

If Toshiba was really prepared to pay Waner hundreds of millions, why not use that money to subidize HD combos. Studios would sell them at SD prices and people would then build HD libraries for free. They would have discs that work in both SD and HD DVD players, and also have an large incentive to buy that $149 HD DVD player.

If studios wanted to know the % of SD vs. HD, they would just do some polling like they do with everything else.

One thing to remember is there are only 5 BD titles that have sold over 100,000 copies. An average SD release sells a million its first week. HD DVD could even only use the combo tactic on specific Action/cgi titles and still over take BD in a month.

Here is an idea I am not sure has been discussed. I already have an HD-DVD player and it up converts great. Why cant we / Toshiba / Uni / Para / just hold out and continue to buy these films in HD-DVD and the rest in SD? It is much cheaper to produce HD-DVD and I think eventually you will have smaller studios, porn and maybe even the big guys come back to produce in both formats. It wouldn’t even matter if the above studios want neutral as long as they produced both formats. Eventually the next generation of players will be able to play both formats and the porn and smaller players can continue to produce how they please. In the mean time I still get to see any movie I want.

new msrp's:

HD-A3: $99
HD-A30: $149
HD-A35: $199
HD-XA2: $249

HD-XA3: $299

HD-A4: $99
HD-A40: $149
HD-A45: $199

HD-XA4: $249

i think the only way for toshiba can keep hd dvd alive is by flooding the market with cheap players and selling a lot of players fast (within a few weeks). of course, toshiba and their retailer partners may try to offload the product at prices like what i have listed above, anyways.

don't be surprised if wal-mart, best buy, etc. try to unload product for $99 that it causes market confusion for the general public who probably doesn't follow this very closely.

paramount and universal will benefit from cheaper hardware prices. if toshiba is committed to lower hardware prices, paramount and universal will benefit from greater software (hd dvd) sales.

My strategic metaphor. Old Yeller has rabies. He fought a good fight. The humane thing to do is put him out of his misery. Pow!

Things are only going to get worse, not better by waiting. End it and let the healing begin. It's the best strategy.

My strategic metaphor. Old Yeller has rabies. He fought a good fight. The humane thing to do is put him out of his misery. Pow!

Things are only going to get worse, not better by waiting. End it and let the healing begin. It's the best strategy.

So the HD DVD PG should step away from the $135 Billion payday? (revenue for DVD from 1999 to 2007)

:confused:

Of course not, but that revenue stream will become BD, not HD-DVD. The best possible thing perhaps would be to negotiate some concessions as soon as possible. The negotiating power will diminish over time, as BD grows.

The point was HD-DVD has received a mortal blow (rabies). It will die; the question is when, not if.

So the HD DVD PG should step away from the $135 Billion payday? (revenue for DVD from 1999 to 2007)

:confused:

if things are resolved quickly all stand to gain some more than others but as this
drags on some also stand to lose more than others a lot more.

#1 HD Porn Company in the WORLD Drops HD DVD and is now Blu-Ray exclusive.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/08...-to-the-plate/

So yah, those waiting for the Porno thing to save HD DVD can breathe a sigh of relief, its not coming.

This may not please everyone, but I think it would be acceptable to most consumers. Unless Toshiba has a few aces up its sleeve in the next few weeks, I would suggest the following:

1. Toshiba should join the ranks of LG and Samsung and release an inexpensive dual format player, declare the format war effectively "over" and do what they need to convince Universal, DreamWorks and Paramount to only release on HD DVD. This is not like the Beta vs VHS war. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are 120mm and use the same codecs.

2. HD DVD exclusive studios would remain exclusive and create full featured HD DVD titles (without the worry of player incompatibilities, disc replication issues or any other problems that may be associated with BD) and the Blu-ray exclusive studios could remain BD exclusive.

3. Instead of having both Blu-ray and HD DVD sections, retailers could now just have one "High Definition Movies" section or something to that effect.

Other possibilities:

* Microsoft could proceed with an HD DVD equipped XBox 360 (if the price is not prohibitive) with the promise of releasing a Blu-ray add-on for this new XBox 360 that would also work with 'legacy' XBox 360's. If Microsoft wants to keep as many as possible from buying their competitor's gaming console, this would be a good move.

* Toshiba would continue as planned to equip all of their laptops with HD DVD or HD DVD-RW drives, and eventully with dual format drives. The BD add-on could be used for anyone who wants Blu-ray playback on HD DVD laptops, much like the way the HD DVD add-on can currently be used for movies on PCs and laptops.

* Release many more HD DVD-RW drives for PCs on the market, as well as HD DVD-R/RW discs. This would be much less expensive than BD-R and a boon for folks who have high-def home videos and want to burn it to DVD or HD DVD cheaply to play on their players. Anyone who needs even more space than what HD DVD provides could burn them to BD discs.

Anyway, that's one possibility. It's better than the alternative.

The alternative is one format. And it is better.

Interesting ideas. At the end of the day however I think one format should reign and the other should go. What needs to be done it Toshiba/HD-DVD et al sitting down with the BDA and getting a deal worked out so that Toshiba/HD-DVD can fold up their tent and yet still get a piece of the pie.

There is enough confusion out there in the mass market already. Now a total HD or some other format will be labelled? Let's call this whole thing a day, get to one format, and get on with the business of stabilizing the platform and getting towards mass market acceptance.

Enough money has been bled on both sides and the studios would love to finally see this insanity end.

The alternative is one format. And it is better.
I'm referring to Toshiba's perspective.

1. Toshiba should join the ranks of LG and Samsung and release an inexpensive dual format player, declare the format war effectively "over" and do what they need to convince Universal, DreamWorks and Paramount to only release on HD DVD. This is not like the Beta vs VHS war. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are 120mm and use the same codecs.


More pure comedy gold. If the format war is over, why would uni and paramount back the loser who isn't even going to make any hd dvd dedicated players anymore, according to your twilight zone scenario, why wouldn't they at the very least go format neutral. The only thing that would convince them to release on hd dvd only would be wheelbarrows of money for all their lost bluray sales.

This is starting to sound like the Black Knight scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail

"it's just a flesh wound"

More pure comedy gold. If the format war is over, why would uni and paramount back the loser who isn't even going to make any hd dvd dedicated players anymore, according to your twilight zone scenario, why wouldn't they at the very least go format neutral. The only thing that would convince them to release on hd dvd only would be wheelbarrows of money for all their lost bluray sales.
Toshiba will always make HD DVD players. Eventually HD DVD playback could be incorporated into all new regular DVD players. This would be especially useful for PC owners with HD DVD-RW drives for their PCs.

This is starting to sound like the Black Knight scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail

"it's just a flesh wound"

+50 :p

Toshiba will always make HD DVD players. Eventually HD DVD playback could be incorporated into all DVD players. This would be especially useful for PC owners with HD DVD-RW drives for their PCs.

Why don't you guys stop already with your woulda, coulda, shoulda. This has always been about studio alliances from the outset. Hd dvd will fail, the two studios left can't be counted on to remain, consumers can smell flop sweat and will avoid the format. Its over.

Yah im sure that Universal and Paramount are chomping at the bits to release movies that cannot be played by the MILLIONS of PS3 owners and of course, the millions of Blu-Ray Stand Alone players that will undoubtably be sold this year. Yep, they are happy with 750k core users, they are what the studios want. Good plan midnightwatcher, although im sure it was hard to type out those points from the memo you got at work today. Typing with tears in your eyes is never easy.

So so sooo much of the 'bargaining' stage of grief going on.. Funny stuff.

If the format war is over, why would uni and paramount back the loser who isn't even going to make any hd dvd dedicated players anymore...why wouldn't they at the very least go format neutral.
Exactly. Toshiba releasing a dual-format player is:

a) declaring BD the winner anyway and a big "sorry, guys" to uni and paramount

b) keeping hd dvd alive just out of spite

As each day passes, I become more convinced that they should wrap this up ASAP. My heart is with HD DVD and I would like nothing more than seeing come back from the dead, but I frankly cannot see how they can pull that off. I know making those HD DVDs into BD cannot happen overnight, and if I have to wait more than a year for an HD DVD movie to come out on BD then I might as well get a combo player (it won't be made by Toshiba). I could just hold on to my $100 A2...

Ah, to keep or not to keep my A2. That is the question...

P.S. HD DVD to BD exchange program for a minute fee. Come on, studios, it won't be that costly. Think of how that will improve your image. Oh, I forgot, you don't care, all you want is $$$.

I still wonder what M$ will say to all this

I'm curious what type of discount you'd accept to trade your player. Face it, it won't be much, but would you trade your HD-DVD player into Best Buy for $50 off a Blu-ray player?

Exactly. Toshiba releasing a dual-format player is:

a) declaring BD the winner anyway and a big "sorry, guys" to uni and paramount

b) keeping hd dvd alive just out of spite

As each day passes, I become more convinced that they should wrap this up ASAP. My heart is with HD DVD and I would like nothing more than seeing come back from the dead, but I frankly cannot see how they can pull that off. I know making those HD DVDs into BD cannot happen overnight, and if I have to wait more than a year for an HD DVD movie to come out on BD then I might as well get a combo player (it won't be made by Toshiba). I could just hold on to my $100 A2...

Ah, to keep or not to keep my A2. That is the question...

P.S. HD DVD to BD exchange program for a minute fee. Come on, studios, it won't be that costly. Think of how that will improve your image. Oh, I forgot, you don't care, all you want is $$$.

I still wonder what M$ will say to all this

I'm referring to Toshiba's perspective.

Toshiba should cut its loses and join the winning side. No sense in making a player than is more expensive than others so it can play movies in a dead format. Other than the Xbox'ers, anyone with HD-DVDs has a Toshiba already.

If Toshiba releases Blu-ray players, I see no reason why they wouldn't release DF. It was my understanding it's fairly inexpensive to make a BD player do HD DVD, but not the other way around. No?

More pure comedy gold. If the format war is over, why would uni and paramount back the loser who isn't even going to make any hd dvd dedicated players anymore, according to your twilight zone scenario, why wouldn't they at the very least go format neutral. The only thing that would convince them to release on hd dvd only would be wheelbarrows of money for all their lost bluray sales.


+1
Uni and Paramount would have to be crazy to stay exclusive at that point, it would be like Sega staying exclusive to Dreamcast in 2008.

I'm referring to Toshiba's perspective.

Ultimately, one format is always favored by everyone.

From Toshiba's perspective, plugging the leak and cutting losses is a much more sound strategy than trying to beat a dead horse. Literally, they had nothing to lose because HD DVD is not an expensive investment for them, given everything was taken from DVD and no reinventing the wheel was required. As a economy newspaper I read few months ago on singapore air suggested, Toshiba is under tremendous pressure not only from its shareholders but as the opposition pro-Sony camp from within the company. So what do you think would be the best possible solution for Toshiba? Plan B. Get out of it while you can since their loss is minimal.

Toshiba should cut its loses and join the winning side. No sense in making a player than is more expensive than others so it can play movies in a dead format. Other than the Xbox'ers, anyone with HD-DVDs has a Toshiba already.


Please tell me how it is dead?

The winning format isn.t better they just spent more money. You act like you actually won something when in reality all "we" won is a monopolistic company and no choice whatsoever. Warner took a giant payoff pure and simple. Warner saying they didn;t get paid is Like Paramounts +Incentives+
I am not knocking BD they saw what they had too do and did it. But to say the better format won or the public has spoken is utter nonsense.


Joon, In 1 year lets see if your still happy you won. Whatever it is you think you won.
:)

IMO, Toshiba should make a deal with the BDA and release HD DVD's exclusive studios and in exchange the BDA effects a memorandum to support all existing HD DVD owners by making 70% percent of all BD players DF for 18 months. This way everyones happy. Existing hd dvders have hardware and support and the BDA is the winning format and has no HD media to fight with. Its either that or they back up the brinks truck to disney and fox and go for the jugular. The latter wont happen and is very farfetched. The other alternative is to hang on and slowly die off in the next 12 months or so. I am ok with that scenario because then I will be able to get some good deals on media and hardware.

The only "solution" to the format war, is one format.

As long as there are two, some part of the war continues.

The only "solution" to the format war, is one format.

As long as there are two, some part of the war continues.
Agreed.

There are only 2 reasons why some people want to keep HD-DVD alive :-

1) They have "issues" with Sony
2) They "early adopted" into HDM before Blu-ray came out and bought HD-DVD. Now, both their pride and their wallets stop them from being able to accept the end of HD-DVD.

The answer?

Counselling is really the only option for those who are still arrested in either of these states.

However, here are a few practical things that might helps such people for starters :-

1) Buy a non-Sony BD player, and avoid all movies released by Sony Pictures. (This doesn't address the real issue of reacting to Sony like they interfered with you as a child, only professional one-on-one counselling can really do that).

2) Look on the bright-side by reminding yourself that you now have access to 50GB HighDef Media

3) Look on the bright-side in that your home library's AQ's will generally be better now.

4) Look on the bright-side that you will benefit from a better bitrate now.

5) Flog your HD-DVD hardware and software on ebay now whilst you can still get a few dollars for it OR keep it forever and look on it as a collectors item.

1) They have "issues" with Sony

... and ...

Counselling is really the only option for those who are still arrested in either of these states.Now, come on... it's not as if Sony hasn't led the way in some of the most anticonsumers campaigns ever, in the name of drm and what not.
I understand the virtues of a single format (and I have a double format reader in my htpc), but completely negating Sony's negative sides is not making them go away.

+1
Uni and Paramount would have to be crazy to stay exclusive at that point, it would be like Sega staying exclusive to Dreamcast in 2008.

As a Dreamcast fan, that hurt me. :(

Sega is dead to me now. :mad:

Not because they're a game developer now, but because almost all their new titles suck.

Sorry for off-topicness. My nerdiness caused me to reply.

The format war is already over and there is no need for any solution. HD DVD will be dead before next Christmas.

Now, come on... it's not as if Sony hasn't led the way in some of the most anticonsumers campaigns ever, in the name of drm and what not.
I understand the virtues of a single format (and I have a double format reader in my htpc), but completely negating Sony's negative sides is not making them go away.
I'm not a fan of Sony per say myself, but it is naive to think that they are any worse than anyone else out there, particularly Microsoft!

This may not please everyone, but I think it would be acceptable to most consumers. Unless Toshiba has a few aces up its sleeve in the next few weeks, I would suggest the following:

1. Toshiba should join the ranks of LG and Samsung and release an inexpensive dual format player, declare the format war effectively "over" and do what they need to convince Universal, DreamWorks and Paramount to only release on HD DVD. This is not like the Beta vs VHS war. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are 120mm and use the same codecs.

2. HD DVD exclusive studios would remain exclusive and create full featured HD DVD titles (without the worry of player incompatibilities, disc replication issues or any other problems that may be associated with BD) and the Blu-ray exclusive studios could remain BD exclusive.

3. Instead of having both Blu-ray and HD DVD sections, retailers could now just have one "High Definition Movies" section or something to that effect.

Other possibilities:

* Microsoft could proceed with an HD DVD equipped XBox 360 (if the price is not prohibitive) with the promise of releasing a Blu-ray add-on for this new XBox 360 that would also work with 'legacy' XBox 360's. If Microsoft wants to keep as many as possible from buying their competitor's gaming console, this would be a good move.

* Toshiba would continue as planned to equip all of their laptops with HD DVD or HD DVD-RW drives, and eventully with dual format drives. The BD add-on could be used for anyone who wants Blu-ray playback on HD DVD laptops, much like the way the HD DVD add-on can currently be used for movies on PCs and laptops.

* Release many more HD DVD-RW drives for PCs on the market, as well as HD DVD-R/RW discs. This would be much less expensive than BD-R and a boon for folks who have high-def home videos and want to burn it to DVD or HD DVD cheaply to play on their players. Anyone who needs even more space than what HD DVD provides could burn them to BD discs.

Anyway, that's one possibility. It's better than the alternative.Dude, you do realize that your "possible solution to the format war" is to simply continue the war, don't you?

"This war, like all wars, will end." And the end is happening now. The CE manufacturers, in the end, will be led by businessmen and not by fanboys of either persuasion. And the format war's end includes cessation of studios producing media in HD-DVD (perhaps preceeded by a relatively short period of producing in both formats). It's over folks.

Now, come on... it's not as if Sony hasn't led the way in some of the most anticonsumers campaigns ever, in the name of drm and what not.
I understand the virtues of a single format (and I have a double format reader in my htpc), but completely negating Sony's negative sides is not making them go away.

I could not agree more. If DRM-protected content becomes the only high definition movie optical disk option, one format will not solve the issue for; I will simply not purchase HD optical disks..

This is a non-negotiable point for me in choosing any HD movie purchase. With HD DVD today as-it-stands, and with BluRay releases that exclude BD+ I can remove the DRM and store the content on my home network / Media Server, I can re-encode it to a format that is acceptible for my mobile device or to a format that is appropriate for streaming to other TVs/devices within my network. If BluRay, in its current format becomes THE only optical standard, I have complete confidence that Sony will continue doing what they always do and they will attempt to limit what consumers can do with the content that they've purchased.

They will make BD+ mandatory and they will rotate keys forever and disable software and hardware players that are compromised. They are already advertising that you should buy both the standard dev and BluRay DVD version of several of their movies. I will not buy the BluRay version, standard def version, mobile version, AND "streamable" version of the same movie as Sony wants. I will buy a movie once and it better support me viewing the content whereever and on whatever device I want.

I also don't see Sony continuing to reduce the price of BluRay disks as their manufacturing costs go down or as their profit goes up; a single Sony-owned HD optical format makes it completely trivial to fix prices on the media itself.


$0.02

I think most (all) depends on the HD DVD Groups decision to this situation. It could at this point concede such a large loss and decide to throw in the towel (of course theres many varations of different exit strategies that could be drawn out of this) or if they decide to dig in there heels for a large counter attack.

Certainly I think the HD DVD Group as a whole has the power and financial backing to successfully pull this off. I wouldnt say it is impossibile for HD DVD to buy the support of another studio at this point if they really want to open up there wallets.At this point I'm sure it would be even more expensive to do this but not impossibile. It seems Fox was already negotiating jumping ship and Warner decided to back which ever way Fox jumps.

Additionally we have already seen the effects that $99 players have with consumers, ninety thousand playes sold in one weekend. If they continued to sell players at this price point for even a few months it would greatly change the current ratio of software sales and demand.

But again it all depends on what the HD group as a whole decides to do at this point. If they counter they could have a chance, if they drag there heels now even I think they will bleed to death.

I'm waiting to see if there are any large announcements within the next 1-2 weeks that shows whether HD DVD will fight back or not.

Please tell me how it is dead?

The winning format isn't better they just spent more money. You act like you actually won something when in reality all "we" won is a monopolistic company and no choice whatsoever. Warner took a giant payoff pure and simple. Warner saying they didn;t get paid is Like Paramounts +Incentives+
I am not knocking BD they saw what they had too do and did it. But to say the better format won or the public has spoken is utter nonsense.


Agreed...get tired of the boasting like somebody really "won" some great fight - it never even reached that level, Sony ensured that now...way I see it, BR didn't really win, it was actually just selected for us by the suits behind closed doors via handshake$, wink$ and nod$ - and theres not a d@mn thing wrong with that though, Toshiba had every opportunity to do the same, and if the rumors are true, they actually were knee deep in that very process and simply got out hustled by Sony. Brag about your format coming out on top, sure, but its just lame fanboy talk when you toss out this rubbish that HD DVD was some cruddy format...keep telling yourselves that if you want, but you're not convincing me of squat - IMO, HD DVD did everything the victor did and then some, at a better price and with a better selection, period. :)

As for the vibe of "getting what you can ($) for your garbage HD DVD stuff" some guys around here are coming with - please, I don't get that mentality at all unless you're one of the few that went nuts and bought hundreds of discs and multiple players, its really just another excuse for some BR folks to look down and be d!ckheads with the cheesy "hehe, sell that sh!t" angle. I won't get rid any HD DVD movies for a mere few dollars UNTIL there is a superior version to replace it with - are you that friggin' poor\cheap that a few dollars is more important than viewing some great exclusive HD material you've got right now? Then why did you buy into Hidef? Have folks given away or sold on eg@y their DVD copies of LOTR, Gladiator, Se7en, Braveheart, etc? Course not, because at this point in time, if the urge strikes you to watch it, its still the best version avail, you didn't care about dumping them for a few dollars - so why the hell would I give up watching, Matrix, Bourne, Batman Begins, Transformers, Knocked Up, etc, etc, in HD when I own the best currently avail version? ;) Thats my strategy anyway, enjoy what I have, regardless of format, and start adding BR now to the fun as well. =)

In some cases, I'm guessing its gonna be quite a while before there is a better transfer and disc for a number of the HD DVD movies I happen to have, and in time I won't care about the small lo$$ when\if I do buy a BR version...I'll replace them when they show, but only if its reviewed and found to be superior - but I have my doubts though that anything more than a simple dump of the existing transfer is gonna happen with those initial re-releases, but we'll see...would be sweet if they DO take the time to up the ante the first go round!

This thread is for serious HD DVD fans to discuss realistic options for the HD DVD format in light of the announcement that Warner/NewLine has gone Blu.

Please do not respond if you are a Blu-ray fanboy. I don't want this to turn into a format war discussion.

So, it's been a few days for the news to sink in. I was curious as to what others think might be the next possible steps for the format, if there are any, that might be positive. Sure we can postulate that Paramount and Universal will go nuetral, or they will both go blu, but that's not what I am getting at. Are there any real options for HD DVD to survive and/or win?

Here are some strategies:

1) Paramount and Universal stay HD DVD With no rumours or rumblings about going nuetral. In other words, they stay committed to the format both in action and publically. This seems very unlikely. They don't want a fractured market any more than any of us do. They know the long term viability is with one format. However, this strategy might be taken if they have done studies that show the HD format will never go beyond niche. For instance, if they believe that in the future both BLu-ray will never take over DVD regardless if every studio converts they may just stay where they are. Remember, neither Paramount nor Universal have been "offered" $500 million like the rumoured WB payout. And, now with WB defecting, it's unlikely that going Blu will net them any good sign on bonuses. In fact, at this point, they probably will not get any favors to turn. Sony doesn't need to since in their eyes it's inevitable that Paramount and Universal will have to turn. If this scenario plays out, then we will live with two formats, and it will stall physical media. This will mean High Def movies will take longer to become mainstream with DVD still winning. HOwever, Paramount is already excited about online movies (Xbox Live for instance) and a number other other avenues for revenue. Perhaps these two studios continue to focus on new ventures and view physical media as only a portion of their strategy, thus content with partial market share. THey could also rationalize their smaller high def market by saying anyone not getting HD DVD can still enjoy their movies on SD DVD.

If this strategy were to be played out it would only be temporary. The goals would be survival and I would envision it lasting only as long as needed to get combo players in an affordable price range. If they held out, CE manufacturers would be forced to evaluated including both standards in their players. At some point, I would say 2 years, combo players would be cheap enough. Remember, this was never possible with the two physically different VHS/Beta standards. But with all discs being the same size, it's quite possible that a combo player would eventually be the norm. For instance there were two completely different standards for CD-R/CD+R and also DVD-R and DVD+R that required different drives when they all of them came out. Over time, manufacturer's said screw it, we will just support all standards. I don't see why that won't happen.

But it would require Paramount and Universal to take the stance that they are not wavering and sticking to their guns.

I believe this as the best possible scenario at this point for HD DVD to survive. IT's not the most likely and not the best for the market, but hey, I am talking as an HD DVD fan that is exploring options that would save the format.

2) Microsoft or CD Partner introduces an XBOX 360 that has a built in HD DVD drive. Ok, this was rumoured and still may be announced this week. I think it's unlikely to be announced though, now that WB has dropped the bomb. But if it does, it could continue to grow the HD DVD player base. Many of the original Xbox 360 early adopters, and those that bought the elite would get this, as well as new customers. Hey, it would piss us off, but we would find a way to "upgrade". Just like every year or other year those that love their iPods find a way to part with another $349 to get the latest version of their MP3 player. In addition to those sales, customers that would be evaluating the more expensive PS3 might now see a similarly featured Xbox with high def movies for the same price and perhaps it would steal market from PS3. Not that the Xbox needs help there, it's got somewhere in the neighboorhood of 12 million boxes sold to Sony's 5 million PS3s. But future buyers looking to the PS3 for both the gaming and movie playing make go the Xbox (and HD DVD) route if given a choice.

This would slow Blu-ray but not stop it. Frankly, nothing will stop Blu-ray now. But again, if it slowed it enough, it might give time for everyone (CE manufactures, retailers, consumers) to just say screw it, to get movies from all studios I need a combo player.

3) Microsoft makes major investment with PC vendors to subsized including HD DVD drives in PCs. Ok, so all this does is ensure the standard stays around. It does nothing to help the format in the CE market. But if they were to do that, it would again slow adoption of Blu in the PC market. This seems highly unlikely since MS has shown little overt or public interest in the format war. Sure they sided with HD DVD but they have no love for either format nor do they care about either format. In many respects, their only reason to get behind HD DVD was to slow the PS3's sales rates. And in that, they have succeeded greatly.

4) Toshiba announces combo players. What does this do? Well, it doesn't give any hope of HD DVD winning. In fact quite the opposite. However, it does do one thing for HD DVD. It gives all of us faith that at least some CE will continue to support HD DVD long enough so taht our library of HD DVD movies won't be obsolete. See, there needs to be some support for HD DVD into the future for us to feel safe. Otherwise, once our current player breaks we are Sh1t out of luck. If Toshibat can make cost effective combo players it might also give some leadership to the other combo player makers too; they may continue to make combo players.


5) HD DVD forum/Toshiba or whoever, lowers licensing and prices drop on HDDVD low enought that all manufactures eventually add it as another supported standard in their players. Sure, Sony will never, but then they will just look like they have one less feature. You see the only hope we have is that HD DVD survives to remain a standard long enough to become another logo on all CE manufacture's devices. Sort of like how DTS was an underdog and costly to support in the beggining but it was a differenciator of those higher DVD players that did support it. Then it eventually just became another feature.

6) HD DVD sales grow slowly in the next 6 months. To that of 50/50. Partially due to many more HD DVD players that were sold over the holidays. This prompts Toshiba to continue support and Microsoft continues to support it as well. I think this is unlikely given trends.

7) Paramount/Universal is given big incentives (that is if Sony has any more cash) to go Blu to end it all. Paramount/Universal/WB offer trade up program for current HD DVD owners to swap discs either for free, or for small fee. Send in your disc get new one, send in your UPC get coupon for store purchase, something. THis might work well for both Paramount and WB who have been making titles on both formats already. THis might get us further good will than continued BOGO free offers and yet be pretty much the same cost to the studios. Universal it will take some time.

So, most of my scenarious involve HD DVD just hanging in there long enough for combo players to become the norm. Sure it seems long shot, but as technology progresses, all competing formats have been incorporated up to now (other than the two high def audio standards).

What are your thoughts? Again, please only post if you take this seriously, if you care about HD DVD, and would like to contribute. I am not trying to make this a new Blu-ray vs HD DVD thread.


Another one : Paramount and Universal releasing ONLY combo HD/SD DVD at the price of regular DVDs, and which would replace them : the most consumers, say, SD-DVD consumers, would keep on buying those media no matter they be combos, because they would be at the same price, and a bunch of them (good one ?) may turn to buy low-priced chinese HD-DVD players (99-dollar ones) to benefit from the HD capabilities of the media.

This solution is industrially doable, but it requires that Para and Uni would still keep on completely supporting HD-DVD...

Another one : Toshiba give a "sufficient" incentive to a BR-exc studio (say, Disney...) to make it move purple...

They're supposedly doing an annoucement before the CES is out, aren't they ?

I sure hope they do something!!

i'm thinking on monday we will have an anouncment either way.

We will either get annoumcnets saying that universal , parmount and toshiba are fully behind this and pledge exclusive support and put an end to rumors or we get that parmount jumped ship. Perhaps if we are lucky we will get a bd studio that jumped ship. I'm sure 600m or so can get one of them to jump over

Dude, you do realize that your "possible solution to the format war" is to simply continue the war, don't you?

"This war, like all wars, will end." And the end is happening now. The CE manufacturers, in the end, will be led by businessmen and not by fanboys of either persuasion. And the format war's end includes cessation of studios producing media in HD-DVD (perhaps preceeded by a relatively short period of producing in both formats). It's over folks.
All players going dual format ends it, not prolongs it.

All players going dual format ends it, not prolongs it.


That disenfranchises the majority of HDM consumers.

...would you trade your HD-DVD player into Best Buy for $50 off a Blu-ray player?
Heck, no.

I understand that if I return my A2 (full refund at WallyWorld), my choices would be to:

a) Get an expensive combo player
b) Wait a long time for an inexpensive combo player
c) Wait a long time and get a moderately priced BD player (after all studios go BD)

That disenfranchises the majority of HDM consumers.
Especially considering dual format today constitutes around 5% of the total market of standalones, leaving aside the fact that the standalone numbers are simply dwarfed by the number of PS3s and Xbox 360 add-ons that are in the wild.

The time to discuss dual format players with seriousness was a year ago, before there were seven millionish one-format-only players worldwide. Discussion of such now is nothing but pipe dreams.

Agreed...get tired of the boasting like somebody really "won" some great fight - it never even reached that level, Sony ensured that now...way I see it, BR didn't really win, it was actually just selected for us by the suits behind closed doors via handshake$, wink$ and nod$ - and theres not a d@mn thing wrong with that though, Toshiba had every opportunity to do the same, and if the rumors are true, they actually were knee deep in that very process and simply got out hustled by Sony. Brag about your format coming out on top, sure, but its just lame fanboy talk when you toss out this rubbish that HD DVD was some cruddy format...keep telling yourselves that if you want, but you're not convincing me of squat - IMO, HD DVD did everything the victor did and then some, at a better price and with a better selection, period. :)

As for the vibe of "getting what you can ($) for your garbage HD DVD stuff" some guys around here are coming with - please, I don't get that mentality at all unless you're one of the few that went nuts and bought hundreds of discs and multiple players, its really just another excuse for some BR folks to look down and be d!ckheads with the cheesy "hehe, sell that sh!t" angle. I won't get rid any HD DVD movies for a mere few dollars UNTIL there is a superior version to replace it with - are you that friggin' poor\cheap that a few dollars is more important than viewing some great exclusive HD material you've got right now? Then why did you buy into Hidef? Have folks given away or sold on eg@y their DVD copies of LOTR, Gladiator, Se7en, Braveheart, etc? Course not, because at this point in time, if the urge strikes you to watch it, its still the best version avail, you didn't care about dumping them for a few dollars - so why the hell would I give up watching, Matrix, Bourne, Batman Begins, Transformers, Knocked Up, etc, etc, in HD when I own the best currently avail version? ;) Thats my strategy anyway, enjoy what I have, regardless of format, and start adding BR now to the fun as well. =)

In some cases, I'm guessing its gonna be quite a while before there is a better transfer and disc for a number of the HD DVD movies I happen to have, and in time I won't care about the small lo$$ when\if I do buy a BR version...I'll replace them when they show, but only if its reviewed and found to be superior - but I have my doubts though that anything more than a simple dump of the existing transfer is gonna happen with those initial re-releases, but we'll see...would be sweet if they DO take the time to up the ante the first go round!
Speculating that the war was won by money being paid off to Warner is only RUMOR and FACT. It's just wishfull thinking to justify your distaste for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray sold more discs/movies and has double the player base than HD DVD.
That is FACT. That is what persuaded Warner to make the right choice and format.

Speculating that the war was won by money being paid off to Warner is only RUMOR and FACT. It's just wishfull thinking to justify your distaste for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray sold more discs/movies and has double the player base than HD DVD.
That is FACT. That is what persuaded Warner to make the right choice and format.

Given the 2:1 software sales ratio in favor of Blu-ray and consideration to almost a full years worth of BOGO software sales, did they really sell that much more in software?

That is what persuaded Warner to make the right choice and format.
Heh, you keep telling yourself that, chief - Warner didn't seem concerned an ounce of the things you mentioned by their actions throughout the course of the war and clearly favored HD DVD, F-A-C-T. Look back at it without sipping the Blu spiked kool-aid so you can justiy their $udden change of favor to Blu.

Given the 2:1 software sales ratio in favor of Blu-ray and consideration to almost a full years worth of BOGO software sales, did they really sell that much more in software?

Yes.

Toshiba gets a cheap HD DVD burner to market by End of Q2.

MSFT enables HD dling with 1 burn DRM capability ... Similar to their Audio DL's.

HD DVD is no longer obsolete when I can DL and Burn for $10. Get us access to ALL studios.

Toshiba gets a cheap HD DVD burner to market by End of Q2.

MSFT enables HD dling with 1 burn DRM capability ... Similar to their Audio DL's.

HD DVD is no longer obsolete when I can DL and Burn for $10. Get us access to ALL studios.

that would change things since no one has bothered to introduce an hd recorder short of the movie cameras.

Its amazing the better product (HD DVD) lost the war... The toshiba is years ahead with functions, menus, true hd, etc.

Its still very surprising the better player lost the format war.

Speculating that the war was won by money being paid off to Warner is only RUMOR and FACT. It's just wishfull thinking to justify your distaste for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray sold more discs/movies and has double the player base than HD DVD.
That is FACT. That is what persuaded Warner to make the right choice and format.

Every single account has stated that Warner was looking to go HD DVD first. They chose not to because they could not get another studio to go with them.

Sales, bit-rate, capacity, PS3, whatever, all had very little to with their decision.

Its amazing the better product (HD DVD) lost the war... The toshiba is years ahead with functions, menus, true hd, etc.

Its still very surprising the better player lost the format war.

Sucks, doesn't it...but thats the way it goes...in so many ways I felt HD DVD was the pound for pound better choice as well, first to market, quality, price, selection of titles, etc, yet here we are. Oh well...

I never paid attention to the whole Beta vs VHS thing, might've been too young (I'm 38), or just flat out interested in other things at that time, but from what little I've read, wasn't Beta in some ways a better medium than VHS, other than convenience?

...way I see it, BR didn't really win, it was actually just selected for us by the suits behind closed doors via handshake$, wink$ and nod$...

Don't take this as a specific criticism of your post but there are many similar posters that believe these "deals" are not customer focused and that the consumer has been denied a choice or forced to accept something.

While these simple conspiracy theories generate lots of interesting discussions on forums they really are accepted too easily without much thought. Whether the player in this market is a studio trying to sell content or a consortium trying to sell royalties or a hw manufacturer trying to sell product or a retailer trying to sell product the key word here is sell - and the target is the consumer.

Yes, the mechanisms to get the consumer to buy are complicated, mistake prone and secretive (all things that contribute to a great anti-consumer conspiracy) but they are all really undertaken to find a way to motivate the customer to buy. Think about it, just from a single player in this market - Best Buy as a retailer.

Here they dedicate an enormous amount of capital in shelf space to DVD's, high margin accessories, players, advertising, sales people, I/S systems, etc. to selling entertainment - movies in this case. DVD sales are a commodity and slowing down as customers make choices to not purchase these things or only purchase them at lower prices (profits). Hidef DVD can reinvigorate that market but it has not exactly caught on and on the horizon is VOD, IPTV, etc., that potentially moves a significant piece of what BB sells away from them. The time line and market for these alternatives are not known but clearly customers are looking for something else. It would be irresponsible of BB as trustees of their investors money to not recognize and address this.

So, what can they do? Seems to me a very legitimate action would be to pressure studios to coalesce around one format. The chances of hidef DVD succeeding (meaning the customer chooses to purchase hidef DVD stuff) increase significantly and therefore ensures BB continued success in that market. Maybe BB convenes a high-level consortium of like-retailers to apply more pressure. Maybe they offer attractive shelf space deals to content producers. Maybe they offer the odd man out some concessions to not resist. Whatever. The tactics are all aimed at trying to find out what will motivate the consumer to make a decision to buy. Multiply this by hundreds of players and you have the potential for millions of WWE-type story lines but in the end it's just normal and legal marketing which is totally consumer focused.

Sucks, doesn't it...but thats the way it goes...in so many ways I felt HD DVD was the pound for pound better choice, first to market, quality, price, selection of titles, etc, yet here we are.

I never paid attention to the whoe Beta vs VHS thing, might've been too (I'm 38), or just flat out interested in other things at that time, but from what little I've read, wasn't Beta in some ways a better medium than VHS, other than convenience?

Yes but VHS won due mainly to being cheaper whereas HD DVD is also much cheaper in price.

Yes but VHS won due mainly to being cheaper whereas HD DVD is also much cheaper in price.

Which is another reason why I'm confused.

Sucks, doesn't it...but thats the way it goes...in so many ways I felt HD DVD was the pound for pound better choice, first to market, quality, price, selection of titles, etc, yet here we are.

I never paid attention to the whoe Beta vs VHS thing, might've been too (I'm 38), or just flat out interested in other things at that time, but from what little I've read, wasn't Beta in some ways a better medium than VHS, other than convenience?

It depends on how you define winning, losing, better or worse. Beta may have not been the home users choice (unsuccessful) for playing back and recording stuff but it was virtually a unanimous choice (success) for professional use. Sony is probably very happy with their profits in that market. Point being, success is determined by how a product contributes to your bottom line. It is not a popularity contest in a every market segment.

For the record, I consider it over. But since Paramount and Uni have made no official statements yet, What would happen if they both very publicly came out and said they believe Warner made a mistake and both not only continue HD support, but step it up into high gear with alot of releases? I think Warner made their decision based on ending the war NOW, how will they respond if it backfires?

For the record, I consider it over. But since Paramount and Uni have made no official statements yet, What would happen if they both very publicly came out and said they believe Warner made a mistake and both not only continue HD support, but step it up into high gear with alot of releases? I think Warner made their decision based on ending the war NOW, how will they respond if it backfires?this is my best case scenario.
though unlikely to happen, it really would be nice to at least get Back to the Future, before Uni is nolonger HD DVD exclusive. release something huge exclusively, to get a feel for the sales numbers.

hopefully anybody who dumped their player, sold it to a BttF fan

Yes but VHS won due mainly to being cheaper whereas HD DVD is also much cheaper in price.

Another big factor was CE manufacturer support, a lesson Sony seems to have learned well.

this is my best case scenario.
though unlikely to happen, it really would be nice to at least get Back to the Future, before Uni is nolonger HD DVD exclusive.

True that. I don't know what good it would do, but I really think that if they do continue support, they have to publicly, and VERY loudly, call Warner out in order to make any sort of impact. Just saying, oh, ha ha, we will continue to support HD won't do any good. They have to absolutely reaffirm they reasoning as to why they support HD.

Again, I really do think it's over, but if Uni and Para show some stones they can at least make continue to make a dent. And I think they should.

Also, I really don't understand the mantra being tossed around by BDA supporters right now that replication will come down in price and that hardware will too. Why is this a selling point and a justification when HD is there RIGHT NOW?

Every single account has stated that Warner was looking to go HD DVD first. They chose not to because they could not get another studio to go with them.What accounts? We have Dave Vaughn and no one else. If you've got links, show us.

Again, I really do think it's over, but if Uni and Para show some stones they can at least make continue to make a dent. And I think they should.

I'd argue they, and Toshiba, should only continue the fight if they seriously believe they can win by the end of 08. What good does it do anybody if this thing drags into 2009 or beyond?

True that. I don't know what good it would do, but I really think that if they do continue support, they have to publicly, and VERY loudly, call Warner out in order to make any sort of impact. Just saying, oh, ha ha, we will continue to support HD won't do any good. They have to absolutely reaffirm they reasoning as to why they support HD.

Again, I really do think it's over, but if Uni and Para show some stones they can at least make continue to make a dent. And I think they should.

Also, I really don't understand the mantra being tossed around by BDA supporters right now that replication will come down in price and that hardware will too. Why is this a selling point and a justification when HD is there RIGHT NOW?

There was a news article reflecting this yesterday showing right after the Warner announcement one of the BR players jumped up over 30% in its previous price...

Buy a non-Sony BD player, and avoid all movies released by Sony Pictures. (This doesn't address the real issue of reacting to Sony like they interfered with you as a child, only professional one-on-one counselling can really do that).



:D

Every single account has stated that Warner was looking to go HD DVD first. They chose not to because they could not get another studio to go with them.

Sales, bit-rate, capacity, PS3, whatever, all had very little to with their decision.

A quote from an insider in another forum:
"
Quote:
Originally posted by Superfluous G…………
? for Insiders:
Rumors are fox was flirting with hd exclusivity/neutraility. How close did Fox come to changing sides?

About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.
Please, spare me anymore after-the-fact internet intrigue.

I believe that our forum has the only Fox studio Executive anywhere on the internet as an Insider and once he gets here on a regular basis, I know that he will not refute this, if you ask him about it directly. Now…..what other people looking at things through red colored sunglasses may think……..that is a different matter."


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=27341&page=100

Yes but VHS won due mainly to being cheaper whereas HD DVD is also much cheaper in price.
Consumers had no fallback position in the VHS/Beta war. If they wanted the flexibility of owning their own media, they had to buy one of them. So when VHS won, Beta owners had no alternative other than to buy VHS if they still wanted to buy movies. Whereas today, SDVD is still the more flexible and consumer-friendly format. It's a solid fallback position. Unless you have a large HDTV, the differences between Blu-Ray and a good upconverting DVD are probably not worth a $400 player, an extra $10-$20 per movie, and only being able to watch a movie on one TV for that amount of investment.

I'd argue they, and Toshiba, should only continue the fight if they seriously believe they can win by the end of 08. What good does it do anybody if this thing drags into 2009 or beyond?


I think you are right, but part of me just wants to see them say hell with it and keep scrapping. It would take a miracle, but sometimes miracles happen. =)

Yes but VHS won due mainly to being cheaper whereas HD DVD is also much cheaper in price.

VHS won because of several reasons. One big one was that Matsushita was quick to licenses VHS to other manufactures. So when you went into a store you would have Sony for Beta and Panasonic, JVC, RCA, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvana, GE,... to choose from for VHS. Do you see any similar analogy in the HD DVD/BD war?;)

Consumers had no fallback position in the VHS/Beta war. If they wanted the flexibility of owning their own media, they had to buy one of them. So when VHS won, Beta owners had no alternative other than to buy VHS if they still wanted to buy movies. Whereas today, SDVD is still the more flexible and consumer-friendly format. It's a solid fallback position. Unless you have a large HDTV, the differences between Blu-Ray and a good upconverting DVD are probably not worth a $400 player, an extra $10-$20 per movie, and only being able to watch a movie on one TV for that amount of investment.

I hope your not misunderstanding what I was saying, I agree with you. I own both HD DVD & Blu-ray and I am much happier with all the extra features and functionality provided by the lower priced HD DVD players.

Considering that Blu-ray has not been able to match these extra features and that cheap upscale dvd players offer almost as good of quality without the need of replacing entire DVD collections, I dont think Blu-ray is worth it.

I'd argue they, and Toshiba, should only continue the fight if they seriously believe they can win by the end of 08. What good does it do anybody if this thing drags into 2009 or beyond?
because I would get to continue buying great HDM for my currently owned player, without having to purchase another.

does that sound selfish? maybe I should get a PS3, so I can fit in:p

Another day, another thought.

If I were Toshiba, I would sit down and make the best pitch possible to Universal and Paramount. The pitch involves them issuing every new movie released over the next 2 years in a combo format at a reasonable price, so that buyers of the DVD also get the HD-DVD version. I would then position an entry level player at no more than $199, preferably $149. This guarantees significant penetration of HD-DVD software and makes the sales numbers go at least 80-20 for HD-DVD. It also makes it low-risk for people to buy an HD-DVD player to use for the nicest TV in their house (if it happens to be an HDTV). While analysts are scratching their heads about how many PS3 buyers are watching BluRay movies, they can also start wondering how many Uni/Para movie buyers are using the HD portion. I think this would generate enough shockwaves with consumers to stop any widespread defection to Blu-Ray.

Anything less than this, I say give up the fight.

I hope your not misunderstanding what I was saying, I agree with you.

No misunderstanding, I was just piggybacking off what you had said.

VHS won because of several reasons. One big one was that Matsushita was quick to licenses VHS to other manufactures. So when you went into a store you would have Sony for Beta and Panasonic, JVC, RCA, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvana, GE,... to choose from for VHS. Do you see any similar analogy in the HD DVD/BD war?;)

there are people that are brand loyal no mater what i was guilty of that
years ago.

A quote from an insider in another forum:
"
Quote:
Originally posted by Superfluous G…………
? for Insiders:
Rumors are fox was flirting with hd exclusivity/neutraility. How close did Fox come to changing sides?

About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.
Please, spare me anymore after-the-fact internet intrigue.

I believe that our forum has the only Fox studio Executive anywhere on the internet as an Insider and once he gets here on a regular basis, I know that he will not refute this, if you ask him about it directly. Now…..what other people looking at things through red colored sunglasses may think……..that is a different matter."


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=27341&page=100

The last person I will believe on Fox is a Fox related insider on Blu-Ray.com.
Even BD insiders have an arrogant undertone to most of their posts...

True that. I don't know what good it would do, but I really think that if they do continue support, they have to publicly, and VERY loudly, call Warner out in order to make any sort of impact.

I know what good it could do: if HD DVD support could hold out long enough to see dual-platform hardware reach the market in a significant way (as HDM broaches the mainstream), HD DVD would be effectively resurrected as a viable format because the bulk of the installed base would be purple. Studio exclusivity would no longer matter.

Of course, that's a BIG if...

VHS won because of several reasons. One big one was that Matsushita was quick to licenses VHS to other manufactures. So when you went into a store you would have Sony for Beta and Panasonic, JVC, RCA, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvana, GE,... to choose from for VHS. Do you see any similar analogy in the HD DVD/BD war?;)

This analogy doesn't quite apply, though, as the reason that this licensing helped VHS win is because it created price competition among VHS CEs and, thus, VHS quickly came down in price to levels Sony wasn't willing to match with Beta. In the HDM war, the opposite circumstance is true- the single-CE format is retailing its hardware for much lower prices than the multi-CE format.

Right now only dual format players can play all HD movies. What if Toshiba made the best priced dual format player and pushed with marketing that the PS3 cannot play all HD movies but their own player can? If Universal and Paramount stay HD DVD long enough it'd be workable. It'd all depend on how low they can bring the price on the dual format players.

This analogy doesn't quite apply, though, as the reason that this licensing helped VHS win is because it created price competition among VHS CEs and, thus, VHS quickly came down in price to levels Sony wasn't willing to match with Beta. In the HDM war, the opposite circumstance is true- the single-CE format is retailing its hardware for much lower prices than the multi-CE format.here's a related, off topic, question...

during that format war, did Sony own a studio?
also, were studios format exclusive?

I'd say producing players for around $80, get Microsoft to drop the HD DVD drive price to $50 and throw in a 2 disk, one year subscription to Netflix.

Honestly, John Q masses is not going to fork over $400 for a player, or even $200, and then pay another $20-$30 for movies, some of which he already he owns. Especially, when he already gets HD content from cable or satellite.

Its amazing the better product (HD DVD) lost the war... The toshiba is years ahead with functions, menus, true hd, etc.

Its still very surprising the better player lost the format war.
Yes on white paper but in reality, there are so many issues with HD DVD discs and players reported daily that HD DVD itself as a format should be recalled for being a lemon format.

It just seems those who bet on the wrong format to win are very bitter these days and will grasp at straws to validate their choice but in the end, you will have to buy a Blu-ray player or watch one at your friends/neighbors house if you boycott Hi Definition in your own home.

What accounts? We have Dave Vaughn and no one else. If you've got links, show us.Find your own links but you don't really want to do that do you.;)
There are several accounts from several solid sources at several websites. BH knows it too, why isn't he talking?
For me and most people here, Dave Vaughn is a solid gold source.
What are your sources? Or do you just specialize in questioning people's veracity in a back-handed C-S way?

Why is this so hard to accept this time. The Paramount deal was accepted as gospel before it was really confirmed. This is no different other than it was a MUCH bigger deal in every way and word leak sooner.

But really in the end why fight it. It happened. It's over. There's no point in arguing it. I think some people on both sides of the aisle have a hard time with the fact that in their minds that this wasn't a "fair fight".
It really never was a fair fight as such, BR had the upper-hand after a disastrous start but the market was and is so small that it didn't matter.

I'd say producing players for around $80, get Microsoft to drop the HD DVD drive price to $50 and throw in a 2 disk, one year subscription to Netflix.

Honestly, John Q masses is not going to fork over $400 for a player, or even $200, and then pay another $20-$30 for movies, some of which he already he owns. Especially, when he already gets HD content from cable or satellite.

Oh but it's ok(reasonable) for people to pay $249-400 for an iPod or cellphone for individual use whereas a HDM player is enjoyed by many. :rolleyes:
And my Comcast with basic HD, 1 convertor box and cablecard costs me $90+. I guess that's reasonable too for the general public to pay.

I'd say producing players for around $80, get Microsoft to drop the HD DVD drive price to $50 and throw in a 2 disk, one year subscription to Netflix.

Honestly, John Q masses is not going to fork over $400 for a player, or even $200, and then pay another $20-$30 for movies, some of which he already he owns. Especially, when he already gets HD content from cable or satellite.

Find your own links but you don't really want to do that do you.;)I'm not making the claim, the burden of proof isn't on me. After all, how can I prove the absence of something?
There are several accounts from several solid sources at several websites.And what "accounts" and "solid sources" are they? Again, no one wants to provide links. If you're so sure, all you have to do is post them.
What are your sources? Or do you just specialize in questioning people's veracity in a back-handed C-S way?Again, how do I prove something that doesn't exist? Do you just point to blank space and say that say, alligators don't exist because there's not one there?

But really in the end why fight it. It happened. It's over. There's no point in arguing it.That's all we're asking.

If Toshiba had one of their players permanently at $99 and Paramount Universal dropped HD-DVD prices to the levels of SD DVD, I believe it would be possible over the next 5 month's for Warner to reverse it's decision. No one in these forums is really even mentioning the 5 month window of opportunity before Warner closes it's doors on HD-DVD.

When it comes down to it, the average consumer will not pay the prices BD players are currently at, but will pay for players similar to the cost of SD DVD players. There are already at least 1 million people out their with HD-DVD players, so it's not like their starting with no customer base.

If Toshiba had one of their players permanently at $99 and Paramount Universal dropped HD-DVD prices to the levels of SD DVD, I believe it would be possible over the next 5 month's for Warner to reverse it's decision. No one in these forums is really even mentioning the 5 month window of opportunity before Warner closes it's doors on HD-DVD.

When it comes down to it, the average consumer will not pay the prices BD players are currently at, but will pay for players similar to the cost of SD DVD players. There are already at least 1 million people out their with HD-DVD players, so it's not like their starting with no customer base.


I think its just a matter of $100 player and combos

Put out all the big movies they got on combo only disc. Don't even release on dvd. Sell them at $20 bucks on the first tuesday they are out.

A big movie like I am legend (don't think they have this one anymore ) would easily sell 1m copies . That would get the press releases and that would suddenly get 1m people to own a hd dvd.

The next trick is to before the movie have a great ad explaining that with a $100 hd dvd player and flipping the disc over you can now enjoy this movie in high defeniton .

It will move units and I don't see how it would cost toshiba that much. They should hve been doing this from the start imo

Yes on white paper but in reality, there are so many issues with HD DVD discs and players reported daily that HD DVD itself as a format should be recalled for being a lemon format.
Please. :rolleyes: The format was every bit as solid as BR, not to mention, *complete* - other than further enhancemets. For every person that said they had a problem with something, there was far more like myself that have yet to encounter a single problem from my player or any disc, combo or otherwise...you're hatred for HD DVD is transparent, but then you'd prolly agree with that. :p

It just seems those who bet on the wrong format to win are very bitter these days and will grasp at straws to validate their choice but in the end, you will have to buy a Blu-ray player or watch one at your friends/neighbors house if you boycott Hi Definition in your own home.
Don't think so, you may WAN'T this to be the case, gives you reason to continue stirring the pot - I've been seening the majority of HD DVD fans actually acknowledgeing its over, but then continuously having to state why we think it ended so abruptly or defending why we bought into it due to the likes of you saying things like "HD DVD was a lemon format", is there any harm in that?

Bitter has nothing to do with it, nobody stole my HD DVD stuff...of course I'm buying a BR player soon, a few flicks as well, quite excited about it actually, but I'm with you - I WANT there to only be one format now, all for it being Blu since the the chips have fallen...just don't see the need to dump on the format that came up short, seems lame, and the guys that keep doing this just keep coming off like pr!cks :::insert mirror here:::

Also, Universal and Paramount could start using the new Twin disc, if it works. Then if HD-DVD doesn't succeed, you can put it in any player without having to check which side is which.

Sony had to take huge risks and spent a tremendous effort to get a win for the Blu. That tells you that HD-DVD could have been the dominant format. Toshiba hasn't done enough in marketing. Knowing that the writing is on the wall and they have limited time left, and a whole lot to lose, they need to make one last ditch effort. A real effort. Not only to lower the prices for entry level consumers, but get some marketing bucks out there on Prime Time tv and get more deals to put out displays like Sony's in the B&M stores.

The members of this forum are movie enthusiasts. Just remember, the average consumer is all about quality and price. The Blu players are too expensive for my friends and relatives that are satisfied with upconverting players. They don't even know what HD DVD and Blu Ray is. The average consumer has still not been won yet, so whatever happens, there is still time left.

There is a difference between having a greater market share vs winning. You haven't won if you are missing 30% of the movies. What the Warner deal did is give BR greater market share. As to saying that it has "won", that is premature. What the HD-DVD camp needs to do is to hang on to that 30%. It is in a much better financial position to wait this out than Sony, in the sense that it is not risking an entire sector (gaming) to try to achieve victory in another.

Toshiba hasn't done enough in marketing.

+1.

There is a difference between having a greater market share vs winning. You haven't won if you are missing 30% of the movies. What the Warner deal did is give BR greater market share. As to saying that it has "won", that is premature. What the HD-DVD camp needs to do is to hang on to that 30%. It is in a much better financial position to wait this out than Sony, in the sense that it is not risk an entire sector (gaming) to try to achieve victory in another.

exactly

hd dvd can actually start to make up ground if they are smart about it . A year from now with the proper plan we could be talking about the comback kid . of course it all depends on what toshiba does

Every single account has stated that Warner was looking to go HD DVD first. They chose not to because they could not get another studio to go with them.

Sales, bit-rate, capacity, PS3, whatever, all had very little to with their decision.

You can keep telling yourself that over and over until you are blu in the face and it doesn't change the facts.

Kevin Tsujihara, president of Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group, acknowledged in an interview that the HD DVD format had some advantages.

"The interactivity is more advanced on the HD DVD side, but I'm confident that we're going to get there" with Blu-ray, he said.

HD DVD discs were almost cheaper to produce, being more similar to traditional DVDs than Blu-ray discs.


"There were cost advantages on the HD DVD side," Tsujihara said. However, "even with that price advantage, you weren't seeing the consumer move toward that format."

exactly

hd dvd can actually start to make up ground if they are smart about it . A year from now with the proper plan we could be talking about the comback kid . of course it all depends on what toshiba does
Blu-ray/Sony is the comeback kid. They started late. Had unfinished specs but won with superior technology and consumer backing.
Toshiba was the leader who was taken down.

There is a difference between having a greater market share vs winning. You haven't won if you are missing 30% of the movies. What the Warner deal did is give BR greater market share. As to saying that it has "won", that is premature. What the HD-DVD camp needs to do is to hang on to that 30%. It is in a much better financial position to wait this out than Sony, in the sense that it is not risking an entire sector (gaming) to try to achieve victory in another.As mentioned in another thread, HD DVD doesn't have 30% of the movies. At best (using DVD market #s), it could have about 25% of the hi-def market share, but the reality is probably closer to 15%-20%. Paramount has the smallest number of hi-def releases of all the major studios. It's barely released more than Lionsgate. It has less titles than Fox alone, even if you're nice and include Dreamworks. And you might as well throw out Weinstein because not only have they not released in 7 months, their sales numbers were dismal.

Assuming that Blu is victorious in the next few month's, we know dual format players will be available. Samsung is already committed to their dual format players, LG has a player, and Toshiba would definitely make a dual format player.

People are saying Beta vs VHS. This reminds me more of DVD+R and DVD-R. At one time, we had to be careful that we had the right drive and the right disc. Now, no one even knows the difference, although the discs are being sold side by side.

As long as dual format players are available, several years from now, no one will know the difference. The cases look the same now, except for the color.

Since there are more lines producing HD-DVD, and it's easier to retrofit an existing DVD line to produce HD-DVD, HD-DVD could once again become the format of choice due to the cost to set up and produce the discs. It's still difficult to believe that there is only one line in the US, owned by Sony that can produce BD50.

In the end, I want the consumer to win. With over a million HD-DVD customers and a millions Blu-ray customer, and over 400 titles availabe in each format the best solution would be affordable dual players

Blu-ray/Sony is the comeback kid. They started late. Had unfinished specs but won with superior technology and consumer backing.
Toshiba was the leader who was taken down.

Your consumer backing comment is a total joke. They won on forcing Blu-ray on the consumer via the PS3 and big checks to the studios.

If HD DVD had paid for 80% of studio support who would have won?

What percent of PS3 owners would have chosen to pay $200 less and passed on Blu-ray support?

How could consumers decide if all studios were not neutral.

Admit it, the consumer NEVER had a fair choice. The studios, Sony and Toshiba were always making it for them.

Your consumer backing comment is a total joke. They won on forcing Blu-ray on the consumer via the PS3 and big checks to the studios.

If HD DVD had paid for 80% of studio support who would have won?

What percent of PS3 owners would have chosen to pay $200 less and passed on Blu-ray support?

How could consumers decide if all studios were not neutral.

Admit it, the consumer NEVER had a fair choice. The studios, Sony and Toshiba were always making it for them.

were they not guilty of paying paramount both sides played a dirty war.

You can keep telling yourself that over and over until you are blu in the face and it doesn't change the facts.
Here's a fact yooze guys like to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda here, and its got nothing to do with figures, just admit it already - WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD, deny THAT as many times as you can, it'll still be a FACT and sound reasoning for while people will always say this whole thing smelled fishy, nevermind the rumors...then, outta the clear Blu $ky, they have a change of heart, a complete 180...gee, wonder what happened, lmao. :D

What percent of PS3 owners would have chosen to pay $200 less and passed on Blu-ray support?

That's a cute hypothetical.

Imagine the PS3 had launched with two models: the familiar, existing model and an HD DVD-instead-of-Blu-ray-equipped version retailing for $200 less. Anyone care to speculate on the sales ratio there?

I'd bet that not only would the HD DVD PS3 have blown the Blu-ray PS3 out of the water, there would probably be a few million more PS3s in homes right now.

Oh but it's ok(reasonable) for people to pay $249-400 for an iPod or cellphone for individual use whereas a HDM player is enjoyed by many. :rolleyes:
And my Comcast with basic HD, 1 convertor box and cablecard costs me $90+. I guess that's reasonable too for the general public to pay.


To compare what most households will pay to cable and satellite service with how much they are willing pay to transition from DVD to a HDM format is silly.


Your logic fails itself. You're trying to illustrate that most people will pay current prices for HDM players, yet they don't. ;)

Warners may have looked at their sales of both formats and compared those to the demographics of their unissued titles and the demographics of the format buyers.

My guess is that this type of analysis would conclude that the people buying the standalone players don't buy as many discs as those that buy game machines that play movies.

If the movies remaining to be issued on HDM are those that would be attractive buys for people who would also buy a game machine, bingo!!

Kids buy game machines and most movies being made are aimed at a young audience.
Most older audiences wouldn't even rent some of the newer releases, much less pay a premium to own them.

Here's a fact yooze guys like to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda here, and its got nothing to do with figures, just admit it already - WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD, deny THAT as many times as you can, it'll still be a FACT and sound reasoning for while people will always say this whole thing smelled fishy, nevermind the rumors...then, outta the clear Blu $ky, they have a change of heart, a complete 180...gee, wonder what happened, lmao. :DWhat actions proved this FACT?

Was it when Warner went from HD DVD exclusive to neutral in 2005?
Was it when Warner used the same video encodes for both formats?
Was it when Warner used the same audio bitrates for both formats?
Was it when Warner offered multiple lossless tracks on Blu-ray titles?

Because any of those facts blow away the "ALL ALONG" argument.

Or maybe it was the FACT that Warner dropped exclusivity! :)

To keep fighting, Toshiba needs to keep both Paramount and Universal totally red. They also need to keep the price pressure, and increase the sales of discs by getting the studios to launch more catalog titles. They keep pushing HD-DVD drives on laptops, and eventually on desktops, and figure out a way of selling downloadable movies that can be burned by the customer.
They also have to hope that the PS3 keeps sagging, and that some bluray studio decides enough is enough and jumps ship.

Much more likely is that Paramount and Universal will now jump ship. Fighting in a winnable battle is one thing, fighting to reach a tie were both sides lose half the market by default is simply stupid. Although they might want to hold on a little longer to keep the price pressure on the hardware.

There are two things holding down format adoption: Uncertainty about which format will win, and the competition with DVD. The first only ends when a format win, the second is the same problem, no matter which format wins. Player pricing is a lesser problem, unless you want to replace DVD.(why would they want to replace DVD? I'd rather sell a DVD for 19,99 than a HD-DVD for 19,99...)

Allan

Here's a fact yooze guys like to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda here, and its got nothing to do with figures, just admit it already - WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD, deny THAT as many times as you can, it'll still be a FACT and sound reasoning for while people will always say this whole thing smelled fishy, nevermind the rumors...then, outta the clear Blu $ky, they have a change of heart, a complete 180...gee, wonder what happened, lmao. :D

May be in the beginning but the consumer buying power spoke to Warner and help them decide.
Basically, the consumer buying habbits have spoken.
Here are some facts/statements for you to chew on.

Kevin Tsujihara, president of Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group, acknowledged in an interview that the HD DVD format had some advantages.

"The interactivity is more advanced on the HD DVD side, but I'm confident that we're going to get there" with Blu-ray, he said.

HD DVD discs were almost cheaper to produce, being more similar to traditional DVDs than Blu-ray discs.

"There were cost advantages on the HD DVD side," Tsujihara said. However, "even with that price advantage, you weren't seeing the consumer move toward that format."

Your logic fails itself. You're trying to illustrate that most people will pay current prices for HDM players, yet they don't. ;)
That's because of the two fomats available.
Now that there is a single HDM format, it won't be hard for the general public to decide to make a Blu-ray player purchase.

Also, Best Buy and Circuit City are bundling FREE Blu-ray players with their Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Panasonic HDTV's.
How hard of a choice is FREE. :)

That's because of the two fomats available.
Now that there is a single HDM format, it won't be hard for the general public to decide to make a Blu-ray player purchase.

Also, Best Buy and Circuit City are bundling FREE Blu-ray players with their Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Panasonic HDTV's.
How hard of a choice is FREE. :)

You can be sure the next responses will be, "But people aren't buying those HDTVs either, they are only buying Vizios or not buying HDTVs at all!"

Now that there is a single HDM format

Really? You must know something we don't.

That's because of the two fomats available.
Now that there is a single HDM format, it won't be hard for the general public to decide to make a Blu-ray player purchase.

:)

Oh yes it will ber VERY hard for the general public to pay $300-$500 for a BR player and $30-$40 for a BR movie that looks not a whole lot better on their 30-40" TV than a SD DVD!

Oh yes it will ber VERY hard for the general public to pay $300-$500 for a BR player and $30-$40 for a BR movie that looks not a whole lot better on their 30-40" TV than a SD DVD!

I honestly don't think many people pay $30-$40 for a BR movie. Out of 9 people I know who own Blu-Ray, none of them have ever paid more than $20. That hardly makes up the general public, but I doubt people are paying $30-40 consistently.

Here's a fact yooze guys like to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda here, and its got nothing to do with figures, just admit it already - WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD, deny THAT as many times as you can, it'll still be a FACT and sound reasoning for while people will always say this whole thing smelled fishy, nevermind the rumors...then, outta the clear Blu $ky, they have a change of heart, a complete 180...gee, wonder what happened, lmao. :D
Do you really, truly want to know the answer to this?

Warner's #1 HD DVD proponent, Steve Nickerson, steps down in late August 2007.
http://www.sirdvd.com/2007/08/rumor-warner-brothers-steve-nickerson.html

Jeff Bewkes, backer of Blu-ray named future CEO of Time Warner in November 2007:
http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,1680750,00.html

Jeff Bewkes assumes CEO position officially, January 2, 2008:
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/01/03/jeff-bewkes-first-day-as-time-warner-ceo-negated-by-market/

Warner announced Blu-ray exclusivity January 4, 2008.

Your consumer backing comment is a total joke. They won on forcing Blu-ray on the consumer via the PS3 and big checks to the studios.

If HD DVD had paid for 80% of studio support who would have won?

What percent of PS3 owners would have chosen to pay $200 less and passed on Blu-ray support?

How could consumers decide if all studios were not neutral.

Admit it, the consumer NEVER had a fair choice. The studios, Sony and Toshiba were always making it for them.

Good post . . . kudos:)

What actions proved this FACT?

Was it when Warner went from HD DVD exclusive to neutral in 2005?
Was it when Warner used the same video encodes for both formats?
Was it when Warner used the same audio bitrates for both formats?
Was it when Warner offered multiple lossless tracks on Blu-ray titles?

Because any of those facts blow away the "ALL ALONG" argument.

Or maybe it was the FACT that Warner dropped exclusivity! :)

Yikes! There is absolutely no reason for me to list the numerous reasons and samples of why nearly everyone and his broher, BR fan or HD DVD, recognized that Warner had been favoring HD DVD, you know they were, let that one go, no smoke and mirror post you (or anyone else) puts up will change the history of what they've physically put out on HD DVD, and in some cases WHEN, as opposed to what they did for BR (until now). I won't even dignify that with a list...

That's because of the two fomats available.
Now that there is a single HDM format, it won't be hard for the general public to decide to make a Blu-ray player purchase.

Also, Best Buy and Circuit City are bundling FREE Blu-ray players with their Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Panasonic HDTV's.
How hard of a choice is FREE. :)

Nice backpedal. The war has long been over. The Warner's announcement was a death nail to HD DVD but meant nothing to Blu-ray (release wise) as they were already in the Blu-ray camp.

Why do they have to give them away if most people were willing to pay $300-400 for them? Because of sluggish HDTV sales? :rolleyes: Thanks for making my point.

Also, Best Buy and Circuit City are bundling FREE Blu-ray players with their Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Panasonic HDTV's.
How hard of a choice is FREE. :)
Now were talking! First useful post I've read of yours (for me) in a while - are there REALLY any deals right now, or is this something you think may happen? I am buying a new display in the next couple of weeks, and as it be, its the Samsung LED DLP (61") - if there is a place I can nab a BR player with it I'd crap myself for joy!! :)

Seriously, I ask because I've been looking at those sites and have not seen a bundle deal yet, must be missing it...time to go back in...

Now were talking! First useful post I've read of yours (for me) in a while - are there REALLY any deals right now, or is this something you think may happen? I am buying a new display in the next couple of weeks, and as it be, its the Samsung LED DLP (61") - if there is a place I can nab a BR player with it I'd crap myself for joy!! :)

Seriously, I ask because I've been looking at those sites and have not seen a bundle deal yet, must be missing it...time to go back in...Try here:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=30360

Try here:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=30360

Thanks! :)

Now were talking! First useful post I've read of yours (for me) in a while - are there REALLY any deals right now, or is this something you think may happen? I am buying a new display in the next couple of weeks, and as it be, its the Samsung LED DLP (61") - if there is a place I can nab a BR player with it I'd crap myself for joy!! :)

Seriously, I ask because I've been looking at those sites and have not seen a bundle deal yet, must be missing it...time to go back in...

he is right i looked in the sunday best buy add its there.

Try here:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=30360

I think whippersnapper is the recruiting officer for blu-ray.com, but it is useful for finding deals...just don't drink the Koolaid they offer.

Here on AVS there is a good thread "Blu-ray Player Special Deals: ALL pricing deals and locating talk goes here".
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937817&page=52

If there are any deals on Samsung TVs, they should show up there. Also try slickdealz.net.

i say just give up.... this is a high end battle and with your supporters (universal and paramount) not helping... it looks like the battle is lost

Now were talking! First useful post I've read of yours (for me) in a while - are there REALLY any deals right now, or is this something you think may happen? I am buying a new display in the next couple of weeks, and as it be, its the Samsung LED DLP (61") - if there is a place I can nab a BR player with it I'd crap myself for joy!! :)

Seriously, I ask because I've been looking at those sites and have not seen a bundle deal yet, must be missing it...time to go back in...
Let me help you out. :)

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat140600050012&type=category

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat140600050006&type=category

Looks like the Samsung/Sony bundle ended last week.

I was curious as to what others think might be the next possible steps for the format, if there are any, that might be positive. Sure we can postulate that Paramount and Universal will go nuetral, or they will both go blu, but that's not what I am getting at. Are there any real options for HD DVD to survive and/or win?
A possible move: subsidizing non-US distributors
A lot of non-US distributors have bought the right to exploit BD-exclusive films in their area. They can release them in HD DVD.
As the world of e-commerce has no frontier, these HD DVD can be got by everyone around the world.


Another possible move: promoting additional subtitles download mechanisms
=> big non-US film market: much more non-US films, much more non-US cinephiles
http://www2.sims.berkeley.edu/research/projects/how-much-info-2003/photo.htm

=> issue: too much languages
=> solution: additional subtitles streaming (a standard HD DVD feature)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3619/bdlivexx3.jpg

This additional subtitles download feature is included in the BD-Live profile, but it’s almost useless if the BD is region coded.

and Toshiba would definitely make a dual format player.
You know this how? :rolleyes: Without any facts to back this up, it's speculation at this point. Toshiba at this point, has not indicated they would be producing a dual-format machine.

That's because of the two fomats available.
Now that there is a single HDM format, it won't be hard for the general public to decide to make a Blu-ray player purchase.
And won't the general public be pissed when they find out that the cheap close-out Blu-ray player they got won't play a lot of the new movies they just purchased. ;)

And won't the general public be pissed when they find out that the cheap close-out Blu-ray player they got won't play a lot of the new movies they just purchased. ;)No, because that's a flat-out lie.
Yikes! There is absolutely no reason for me to list the numerous reasons and samples of why nearly everyone and his broher, BR fan or HD DVD, recognized that Warner had been favoring HD DVDYou're right, there's no reasons or samples because they don't exist. You said "WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD". I just provided several that show they didn't. If you don't have any, just move on. Or, by all means, keep responding, and dig a deeper hole.

You're right, there's no reasons or samples because they don't exist. You said "WARNERS ACTIONS ALL ALONG PROVED THEY FAVORED HD DVD". I just provided several that show they didn't. If you don't have any, just move on. Or, by all means, keep responding, and dig a deeper hole.
Psssst...you're wrong.

That is unless you consider numerous exclusive titles released on one format but not the other, or releasing an exclusive major box set on a specific date to counter a major BR release just mere coincidence. Give it a rest - they favored HD DVD with these actions as well as others....scram now, son, this hole doesn't have enuff room, tis awefully shallow. :p :D

No, because that's a flat-out lie.
Keep thinking that if it makes you feel better. ;)

Psssst...you're wrong.

That is unless you consider numerous exclusive titles released on one format but not the other, or releasing an exclusive major box set on a specific date to counter a major BR release just mere coincidence. Give it a rest - they favored HD DVD with these actions as well as othersWell, then maybe you just want to play at semantics, but all that means is that they favored HD DVD at some point(s), not all along.
....scram now, son, this hole doesn't have enuff room, tis awefully shallow.You're quite right.
Keep thinking that if it makes you feel better. ;)I don't have to think it, I know it, because you see it's fact. Why don't you show us some links that say most Blu-rays won't play on BD players.

Because there aren't any. I eagerly await your next response. I predict another smarmy "comeback" with no backbone, a smiley or two, and no evidence.

And won't the general public be pissed when they find out that the cheap close-out Blu-ray player they got won't play a lot of the new movies they just purchased. ;)
Care to back up your statement with facts ?

Only player having an issue with several titles is the BD-P1200.
There is a FW in the works to resolve those issues.

What about the thousands of 3rd gen HD DVD players that can't play discs in the box ?
Ya, they got a bargain. :rolleyes:
How about the countless amount of playback issues of NEW discs?

And I wonder how many people feel burned like this guy for buying in to HD DVD.


Rob Bohl of Highland Park, N.J., bought an HD DVD player in December for $179.98, without considering a Blu-ray player instead. He had forgotten about the other format.

"I wish I had been more careful and waited," he said.

He feels a bit "burned" by the experience, but it's probably not enough to keep him out of the market.


"The fact is: when I get my tax refund, they'll probably have a cheap player, and I'll probably wind up getting one," Bohl said.

SOURCE (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22544356/)


I guess we know now what a lot of tax returns will be used for this year. :D

.

Well, then maybe you just want to play at semantics, but all that means is that they favored HD DVD at some point(s), not all along.

LOL, yeah, sounds about like what like I expected - not touching the actual point made about the E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E mentioned that you asked for....

Tip: stick with the semantics angle, its all you have here...it'll work out much better for ya in the long run on this subject. :D

EDIT: BTW, serious thanks to all for the helpful links provided, I am indeed checking each one, even skimming the blu-ray.com thing...

Rob Bohl of Highland Park, N.J., bought an HD DVD player in December for $179.98, without considering a Blu-ray player instead. He had forgotten about the other format.
sounds like HD DVD has some pretty good marketing built directly into the name:cool:

oh DVD Forum, you'v done such a good job throughout the years, but I guess Sony gets to provide for the consumer from now on:eek: *runs for the hills*

just my 2 cents, Toshiba should have a $99 street price player now, and combo discs could have had a viral effect on the SD DVD market. SD disc sales are way still way higher, that would have put millions of discs in the hands of people that all of the sudden realized they could be watching HD and not have to double dip on the movie. An educational video on the SD side before the movie could have helped. I just fear it's too late now.

edit: combo discs for all studios (except sony) at the SAME price as current DVD's

I don't have to think it, I know it, because you see it's fact. Why don't you show us some links that say most Blu-rays won't play on BD players.
Well first of all, if you had read my post correctly :rolleyes: - I did not say most Blu-ray players. I said cheap close-out models - that means early 1st gen models that "most" consumers will buy because it's cheaper. And trust me, the general consumer is still concerned about the price point. :)

I'm sure you're capable of searching yourself (but maybe not, as you didn't comprehend my original post very well), so here's some:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858333&highlight=blu-ray+youtube+pirates

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12550401#post12550401

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12410193#post12410193

All of this stems from the problems of early BD profiles, BD was simply in a rush to get Blu-ray out the door so quickly. But if you need any more examples, just let me know. ;)

This thread is for serious HD DVD fans to discuss realistic options for the HD DVD format in light of the announcement that Warner/NewLine has gone Blu.

Please do not respond if you are a Blu-ray fanboy. I don't want this to turn into a format war discussion.


Why do you want to keep fighting? Its like those Japanese soldiers stranded on islands in the South Pacific still fighting world war II in the 60's.

The war is over, lets just start being nice to each other again.

Daniel.

sounds like HD DVD has some pretty good marketing built directly into the name:cool:

oh DVD Forum, you'v done such a good job throughout the years, but I guess Sony gets to provide for the consumer from now on:eek: *runs for the hills*
"My HD Upconvert works so well that it can play HD DVD too." Says J6P. :D

Care to back up your statement with facts ?

Only player having an issue with several titles is the BD-P1200.
There is a FW in the works to resolve those issues.

What about the thousands of 3rd gen HD DVD players that can't play discs in the box ?
Ya, they got a bargain. :rolleyes:
How about the countless amount of playback issues of NEW discs?

And I wonder how many people feel burned like this guy for buying in to HD DVD.

[/size]

SOURCE (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22544356/)


I guess we know now what a lot of tax returns will be used for this year. :D

.

There are multiple Blu-ray players with issues. Many Samsungs and the LG player can not play RotSS or DAT with out an FW update. That update is NOT provided when you buy the player.

The people who don't know that you have to load FW when you buy a Blu player are going to be very upset.

Of couse there is also the issue of most Blu stand alones that take 2 to 5 minutes to load BD-J titles. That will make peolpe upset too.

Plese don't change the topic to HD DVD. The fact is Blu-ray players (besides the PS3) are STILL not ready for primetime.

"There is a FW in the works to resolve those issues." Tell that to a owner... yeah some day it will work, just not today. You are SOL.

Well first of all, if you had read my post correctly :rolleyes: - I did not say most Blu-ray players. I said cheap close-out modelsYou're right, you actually said most of their movies won't play. You're still lying. Actually, you're lying twice, because as we'll see below, your claim is based not on cheap close-out models, but expensive first-gen combo players and less than 10 titles out of 400+.
I'm sure you're capable of searching yourself (but maybe not, as you didn't comprehend my original post very well), so here's some:Congratulations. You've successfully...shot down your own argument.

The first post is a problem that's already been fixed.
The second post is 8 titles (out of 400+) that won't play on an expensive combo player (which make up maybe 2% of non-PS3 players).
The third post is a twofer: you choose another expensive combo player followed by this line:We watched Pirates 3 Blu-ray that was rented from Blockbusters and it worked GREAT. No problems.Truly amazing.

There are multiple Blu-ray players with issues. Many Samsungs and the LG player can not play RotSS or DAT with out an FW update. That update is NOT provided when you buy the player.

The people who don't know that you have to load FW when you buy a Blu player are going to be very upset.

Of couse there is also the issue of most Blu stand alones that take 2 to 5 minutes to load BD-J titles. That will make peolpe upset too.

Plese don't change the topic to HD DVD. The fact is Blu-ray players (besides the PS3) are STILL not ready for primetime.
And I guess HD DVD was doomed since FW upgrades were required monthly lately. :rolleyes:

2 minutes but no disc I've put in my BD-P1200 took 5 minutes.
My A20 takes a long time to load as well. May be I should crush it for being 10ms slower loading discs than my BD-P1200 ?

And what are people with HD DVD playback issues of discs INCLUDED in the box don't work or can't play new titles to do when FW updates DO NOT resolve the issue?
(*These are new 3rd gen players that should have bugs worked out by now or at least not be so problamatic in large quantities of players sold.)

Oh, ya, they take them back to the store to get a Blu-ray player.

There are multiple Blu-ray players with issues. Many Samsungs and the LG player can not play RotSS or DAT with out an FW update. That update is NOT provided when you buy the player.

The people who don't know that you have to load FW when you buy a Blu player are going to be very upset.

Of couse there is also the issue of most Blu stand alones that take 2 to 5 minutes to load BD-J titles. That will make peolpe upset too.

Plese don't change the topic to HD DVD. The fact is Blu-ray players (besides the PS3) are STILL not ready for primetime.

"There is a FW in the works to resolve those issues." Tell that to a owner... yeah some day it will work, just not today. You are SOL.

::: warning, off topic - sorry :::

You seem to be a current HD DVD owner who happens to be on the ball and up to date with the BR players - if you had your choice of a stand alone player thats avail today, money not an object, lets say someone were to give you one, which model (not dual, I don't want a dual) would you consider? Just curious, I'm nervous now about these package deals, thinking it might be better to wait on this 5500 model everyone is talking about? Thanks

You're right, you actually said most of their movies won't play. You're still lying.
Once again, I did not say most of their movies won't play. I said some of the new titles they just bought won't play. :rolleyes: Your lack of reading comprehension is really making you look quite foolish now. ;)

And I guess HD DVD was doomed since FW upgrades were required monthly lately. :rolleyes:

And what are people with HD DVD playback issues of discs INCLUDED in the box don't work or can't play new titles?
(*These are new 3rd gen players that should have bugs worked out by now or at least not be so problamatic in large quantities of players sold.)

Oh, ya, they take them back to the store to get a Blu-ray player.

I am sorry we are talking about Blu-ray. You know that format who's motto is:

There is a FW in the works to resolve those issues.

Just as YOU said!

Once again, I did not say most of their movies won't play. I said some of the new titles they just bought won't play. :rolleyes: Your lack of reading comprehension is really making you look quite foolish now. ;)

So now you change your tune to "some" instead of "alot" after you were called out.

And won't the general public be pissed when they find out that the cheap close-out Blu-ray player they got won't play a lot of the new movies they just purchased. ;)

And I guess HD DVD was doomed since FW upgrades were required monthly lately. :rolleyes:
At least firmware updates would allow all new HD DVD movies and the associated features and extras to be played on any HD DVD player. This isn't the case with early Blu-ray players. ;)

You seem to be a current HD DVD owner on the ball and up to date with the BR players - if you had your choice of a stand alone player that avail today, money not an object, which model (not dual, I don'y want a dual) would you consider?

I am a PS3 owner. It loads BD-J titles fast and will be 2.0 compliant. I am not sure how fast the new Panasonic player is, but that is the only current one I would consider. My fear is that most players take forever to load a disc. Boot time doesn't bother me because I can just leave the player on, but a 2 minute load time is a killer, and more discs are going to be BD-Java.

So now you change your tune to "some" instead of "alot" after you were called out.
True - I did say a lot. That still doesn't change anything, and what I stated is still true. ;)