http://www.ft.com/cms/s/8d56c2a8-bc89-11dc-bcf9-0000779fd2ac.html

Paramount and DreamWorks joined the HD-DVD camp last year after securing fee payments worth an estimated $150m from the HD-DVD camp.

Universal has been the format’s biggest champion but it was tight lipped on Sunday about its next move. It was unclear whether the studios backing HD-DVD would change sides, although it is understood that Paramount has reserved the right to switch its backing to Blu-ray.

That is actually interesting news. If true, it will happen soon, as surely Paramount wants a single format as much as Warner and the other studios.

Amen Brother!!

Wow, very interasting if something comes of that.

I suspect that Universal can do whatever it wants at this point.

and if universal goes, what will parmount do?

and if universal goes, what will parmount do?

Neither one want to be left holding the last red box. If Paramount can exit, they will do so ASAP.

Serenity and Transformers with 24/48 True HD or DTS MA. I can't wait.

Proof would be nice

Proof would be nice

Logic dictates that it is most likely true. We should know in a few days anyway.

It's been known for quite some time that Universal has not renewed any exclusivity deals with the HD-DVD Promo Group. This indicates that they were at least trying to keep their options open.

I imagine this announcement by Warner will just seal the deal. Expect Universal on Blu-ray disc any time now - maybe even announced during CES.

As for Paramount, if this news is true, I can't imagine they'll be far behind.

Not that it matters. The format war is over...

I suspect that Universal can do whatever it wants at this point.

There were some that were speculating that Warner had a 2-year contract (as does Universal, so the theory goes) with the HD DVD group that ends at the end of May. If this were true, then maybe Universal might also go blue after May ... as for Paramount, I dunno, but I sure hope that they have an easy-out clause, so this crap will end sooner rather than later.

There are some nice Paramount movies I'd like to see on Blu-Ray, though Transformers is not one of them. This may be over sooner than we think.

There were some that were speculating that Warner had a 2-year contract (as does Universal, so the theory goes) with the HD DVD group that ends at the end of May. If this were true, then maybe Universal might also go blue after May ...

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

What court battle?

Did you miss the memo where Warner is stopping HD-DVD support in May? That would be 2 years and fulfillment of the contract.

What court battle?

Did you miss the memo where Warner is stopping HD-DVD support in May? That would be 2 years and fulfillment of the contract.

Ever hear of "good faith" as it pertains to a contract?

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

i would think they have some of the best lawyers on retainer avaliable.

If universal goes neutral we might finally see a remastered Jurrasic park and back to the future.

Based on the Toshiba press conference I'd say that any exclusivity contracts might be ignored at this point.

Toshiba barely mentioned HD-DVD. Since it was widely assumed an A4/A40/A45 product line would be introduced and Toshiba would spend most of their conference gushing about HD-DVD's 2nd place ("But we're a strong second!") status, I'd say it's the officially the end.

According to Warner's president they took no money what so ever.

That's not what he said.

i would think they have some of the best lawyers on retainer avaliable.

Of course.

If one agrees Paramount reserves the right to switch to BluRay/Neutral, then it follows that their decision likely wasn't swayed by $ and that there was no 18 month contract.

According to Warner's president they took no money what so ever.

LOL. It's funny how people interpret what people say.

With Paramount and Universal not saying a single word so far in regards to what Warner did, you have to clearly think something of this nature is going to happen soon. It is obvious everyone wants the format war to end. Paramount and Universal have been so quiet the last few months. Something has to give.
THey could not just perhaps be taking the studied approach of spending a few days to discuss the best strategy with the other HD DVD partners and Toshiba? Making a careful consideration could be the furthest thing from reality right?
Oh you guys are just so ....

Dee

Ever hear of "good faith" as it pertains to a contract?

You've never heard of any company out there negotiating a new contract with another company, even before their current one expires? Athletes do it all the time.

Really I must be reading something else then?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Warner:_No_Payoff_for_Move_to_Blu-ray/1327


Read the headline you don't even have to read the article. I love the made up stuff that people say sometimes.
You're not reading at all.

WHAT???? Then what am I doing then? I don't have a clue.LOL, let it go man, HD-DVD lost.
And?

If one agrees Paramount reserves the right to switch to BluRay/Neutral, then it follows that their decision likely wasn't swayed by $ and that there was no 18 month contract.

Umm, no. When they switched, Blu-ray was beating HD DVD. They obviously had some sort of clause that if Warner goes Blu-ray or if HD DVD can't overturn Blu-ray's lead by Q4 2007, then they reserve the right. You can bet the lawyers made sure there were Clauses.

Gotta love how the HD DVD losers are cheering for a lawsuit now while not complaining about Paramount pulling actual product from the shelves. Priceless.

^^^ +1000!!!

Gotta love how the HD DVD losers are cheering for a lawsuit now while not complaining about Paramount pulling actual product from the shelves. Priceless.

I haven't seen anyone cheering for a lawsuit. Paramount has the right to do with it's product what it wants to do. Breaching a contract is another thing. If Paramount breached a contract they should have been held accountable.

Gotta love how the HD DVD losers are cheering for a lawsuit now while not complaining about Paramount pulling actual product from the shelves. Priceless.

It's one of the stages of grief. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. The hard-core types here are still in Stage 1.

According to Warner's president they took no money what so ever.

Get some logic. A CEO would lie to you as soon as sell you one of their products. CEO's are right up there with politicians.

The hard-core types here are still in Stage 1.

LOL...........

You're not reading at all.


Warner Home Entertainment President Kevin Tsujihara says the studio took no pay-offs to exclusively back Blu-ray.

That quote also appeared in Variety as well. Do you have proof that they took a payoff? If not, the evidence seems to prove you wrong.

That quote also appeared in Variety as well. Do you have proof that they took a payoff? If not, the evidence seems to prove you wrong.

Seriously, how gullible are you?

Get some logic. A CEO would lie to you as soon as sell you one of their products. CEO's are right up there with politicians.

Speculation that he has lied is not the same as proof that he lied. If he did lie, it's going to show up in Warner's financials for the next one to four quarters.

That quote also appeared in Variety as well. Do you have proof that they took a payoff? If not, the evidence seems to prove you wrong.

You don't have proof they didn't take a pay off. All you have is the Warner CEO saying they didn't take money to switch, not that they didn't take money. The way I figure it, Warner was going to switch and they were gong to take the money anyway. Why wouldn't they?

Speculation that he has lied is not the same as proof that he lied. If he did lie, it's going to show up in Warner's financials for the next one to four quarters.

Who said he lied?

I'm of the opinion that AVS should suspend all new account creation for 48-72 hours. All of the crazies from both sides are creating clone accounts to spew their filth and it's getting quite annoying.

Seriously, how gullible are you?

I'm a professional paranoid by trade. Until there is proof otherwise, there is only the word of Warner and a bunch of speculation from people not connected to Warner. If Warner has lied, it will show up in their financials. Until then, everything involving them taking a payoff is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumor.

I haven't seen anyone cheering for a lawsuit. Paramount has the right to do with it's product what it wants to do. Breaching a contract is another thing. If Paramount breached a contract they should have been held accountable.Did you not read the article? The point of the statement is that they wrote themselves an "out" that protects them from legal action.

Who said he lied?

What is it if it's not the truth? I'd love to get into a semantic argument with you and your friend over the meaning of truth, but I have better things to do than teach on my day off.

I'm a professional paranoid by trade. Until there is proof otherwise, there is only the word of Warner and a bunch of speculation from people not connected to Warner. If Warner has lied, it will show up in their financials. Until then, everything involving them taking a payoff is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumor.

Honestly, I hope you're right. It might restore some of my innocence and relieve me of some cynicism.

What is it if it's not the truth? I'd love to get into a semantic argument with you and your friend over the meaning of truth, but I have better things to do than teach on my day off.
There are other options than the black/white ones you want to see. Also, no one questioned truth. I really hope you are not an English teacher.

Gotta love how the HD DVD losers are cheering for a lawsuit now while not complaining about Paramount pulling actual product from the shelves. Priceless.

...and when Paramount switched BD fans were clamoring for a class action lawsuit.

Pot meet kettle. I'm sure you'll be best friends.

You don't have proof they didn't take a pay off.

You really can't prove a negative. I'm sure you know that.

You really can't prove a negative. I'm sure you know that.
I believe I qualified that statement, but I guess quoting the entire post for context was out of the question.

I believe I qualified that statement, but I guess quoting the entire post for context was out of the question.

Its not a real hard concept to grasp.

Warner has a 2 year contract with HD-DVD. Warner announces they will no longer support HD-DVD when that contract expires and they will start supporting the competition. Warner is fulfilling the terms of their contract by supporting HD-DVD until May.

It happens every day in corporate America.

If you want to talk good faith, then I'd say Warner is showing plenty of good faith by continuing to release on HD-DVD until May, unlike Paramount who pulled product from shelves and cancelled people's preorders.

Paramount should ask Blu-Ray for another 350 million before they switch so they get the same total payoff as Warner and Fox did! Sony should be able to afford that to totally shaft Universal and Toshiba.

Understand, I don't care either way what happened and why...it just changes the majority of colored cases in my collection.

All reports state that Warner was not paid anything to switch over, including direct quotes from the CEO. I don't think that statement is in dispute.

However, you can also state that incentives, marketing and replication discounts, cost avoidances, etc. are not payments and still state as truth that they were not paid (99.9% discounts).

Most executives are great at double speak, and the only way to pin them down is with a direct question regarding all possibilities. When you get a direct answer, it's usually something else. When you get a "we cannot discuss..." or "no comment" you're pretty much on the money, so to speak.

Do I believe Warner got something in the deal...absolutely...and not just one format. :)

Paramount is probably dusting off its old Blu-Rays and planning for Transformers, disappointed it missed what would have been a huge day and date release in Blu-Ray. Now it is just a catalog title, a good one, but a catalog title.

Paramount should ask Blu-Ray for another 350 million before they switch so they get the same total payoff as Warner and Fox did! Sony should be able to afford that to totally shaft Universal and Toshiba.

Paramount isn't worth the money, frankly. Considering their fantastic catalog, they've been very lackluster (in number) in their releases, both format neutral and HD-DVD only.

They should have done so much more.

Paramount isn't worth the money, frankly. Considering their fantastic catalog, they've been very lackluster (in number) in their releases, both format neutral and HD-DVD only.

They should have done so much more.

Considering how they shafted the BDA, I don't think they'll be getting much of a deal, frankly.

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

Unless you work for one of the companies involved, why does anyone on this forum give a good damn about lawsuits or court battles. What is the point of bringing up this nonsense. It really doesn't concern you or I other than those that are pissed about losing movie titles and the future potential to lose HD DVD as a format.

This legal talk is simply silly.

Slim, what is your motivation here with regards to legal issues? What is the purpose of taking this position? What does it do for you really?

I don't have the link to the original article or press release, but how soon many forget.

I DO remember when Paramount made the HD DVD announcement, that they were leaving options open in the future or that they would reevaluate down the road. Again, I can't remember specific wording, but I do remember some reference to what I mentioned.

Slim, what is your motivation here with regards to legal issues? What is the purpose of taking this position? What does it do for you really?

What does any of this really do for any of us? :confused:

Toshiba barely mentioned HD-DVD. Since it was widely assumed an A4/A40/A45 product line would be introduced <snip>

In fairness, Robert from Value Electronics had already confirmed that Toshiba was *not* introducing new models. The third gen players all came to market fairly recently (Sep-Oct if I recall).

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

I think if Toshiba are stupid enough to take any legal action on WB, with WB's market share in SD and HD media, Toshiba can kiss goodbye to any future format about media storage.

Gotta love how the HD DVD losers are cheering for a lawsuit now while not complaining about Paramount pulling actual product from the shelves. Priceless.

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

Paramount isn't worth the money, frankly. Considering their fantastic catalog, they've been very lackluster (in number) in their releases, both format neutral and HD-DVD only.

They should have done so much more.Well hell... I have to agree with you on that :)

What does any of this really do for any of us? :confused:

Who am I? Where am I?

:rolleyes:

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

One ended the war, one prolonged it.

I don't see anything wrong with either payout, but one has obviously proven to be productive the other hasn't.

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.I noticed that too. Everyone should just recognize the truth that they all took payoffs and these payoffs have been going on for several years now.

I might even mention that it was Toshiba that initiated the 500 million dollar payoffs with Fox and Warner, but when Sony matched and Fox decided to stay Blu-Ray(probably because of their copy protection paranoia), which left Warner with the decision and they made it. Warner was getting 500 million from somebody no matter what.

Paramount should ask Blu-Ray for another 350 million before they switch so they get the same total payoff as Warner and Fox did! Sony should be able to afford that to totally shaft Universal and Toshiba.

Coming from a loosing format puts you in a week position. Plus Paramount's not the 800lb gorilla, Warner is.;) Just like Warner decide which SDM (DVD) we would get they will (did) decide which HDM (BD) we will have.

Coming from a loosing format puts you in a week position. Plus Paramount's not the 800lb gorilla, Warner is.;) Just like Warner decide which SDM (DVD) we would get they will (did) decide which HDM (BD) we will have.Damn... you need a spell checker dude!

Damn... you need a spell checker dude!


Actually I don't see any misspelled words. I'm dyslexic so I do have a spelling problem. "loosing" is a word even though it's the wrong word. I just hit the o one too many times. "week" is a word but should be weak and "decide" is a word but should be decided. What am I missing and what is misspelled?:confused:

I think both Paramount and Universal will be bringing out their first Blu-Ray titles by the fall.

Toshiba will likely spare both of them having to make the decision by axing the format if they don't feel like there's anything else they can do studio wise.

That quote also appeared in Variety as well. Do you have proof that they took a payoff? If not, the evidence seems to prove you wrong.

What evidence ? These people are masters of lies and deception, is that your evidence ?

Damn... you need a spell checker dude!Wireless, I know it will be difficult for you, but do try your best to show some class.:)

...Toshiba will likely spare both of them having to make the decision by axing the format if they don't feel like there's anything else they can do studio wise.

Actually I believe that the DVD Forum would have to make all final decisions about asking, sorry I mean axing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12711388#post12711388).:D

According to Amir in the Insiders Thread most contracts have a "shmuck" clause which allow a company under certain circumstances to get out of a contract. The Paramount contract probably has this.

I'm of the opinion that AVS should suspend all new account creation for 48-72 hours. All of the crazies from both sides are creating clone accounts to spew their filth and it's getting quite annoying.

Seconded.

According to Amir in the Insiders Thread most contracts have a "shmuck" clause which allow a company under certain circumstances to get out of a contract. The Paramount contract probably has this.

I think that's what he was trying to imply.

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

A Tosh executive eventually fessed up to incentives, but denied the $150M value. Can't remember the guy's name. Can anyone check on that for me?

Either way, it is standard business practice. If someone would let the EU know about that, I'm sure many people would be appreciative.

According to Amir in the Insiders Thread most contracts have a "shmuck" clause which allow a company under certain circumstances to get out of a contract. The Paramount contract probably has this.

See: Paramount and DIVX.

Paramount bailed on them for failing to meet sales targets.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/8d56c2a8-bc89-11dc-bcf9-0000779fd2ac.html

While that quote is interesting, it's pretty empty if we don't know the terms of the out-clause. If a party can opt out of an agreement under any terms, they never really had an agreement in the first place.

Finding out the terms of the out-clause would be great. Get on that for us!

Brandon

See: Paramount and DIVX.

Paramount bailed on them for failing to meet sales targets.

Maybe you're onto something there. The sales prediction thread just became more significant than before this decision :eek:

Brandon

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

Since I wrote an article on this subject, let me address this.

I was very upset about the Paramount move because it was anti-consumer. I also said--and this is the key point--that changed the historical rules concerning how studios deal with their customers and formats to which they have committed. I predicted in that article that, now that the rules were changed, we would see a bidding war for Warners and that Warners would go exclusive one way or the other.

Whether or not Warners was paid I do not know. I think it is well established that Paramount was paid. I am sorry that we have come to a situation where companies dump on their customers by reneging on their apparent commitments.

At least, we were all forwarned that this was coming. I told all of my friends this fall to absolutely not believe any of the studio alliances, they were all subject to expedient behaviour.

I also believe that Toshiba would have served its own interests better in using their money last August in some way that would have actually helped their customers. For example, buy support from an exclusive Blu-ray studio. This would have gained them content without hurting Blu-ray customers. Or lower the prices in August.

It is clear that Toshiba hurt Blu-ray. It is also possible that Toshiba hurt their own chances. This is because their buyout of Paramount convinced many potential customers that the situation was highly unstable and that they could not depend on the word or integrity of any of these companies. So, when Toshiba reached for a broadening of their penetration with "popular prices", they found customers were wary.

Why should I buy the bargain "razor" if I am concerned that the "blade" manufacturers will renege?

I noticed that too. Everyone should just recognize the truth that they all took payoffs and these payoffs have been going on for several years now.

I might even mention that it was Toshiba that initiated the 500 million dollar payoffs with Fox and Warner, but when Sony matched and Fox decided to stay Blu-Ray(probably because of their copy protection paranoia), which left Warner with the decision and they made it. Warner was getting 500 million from somebody no matter what.

I just dont understand how ridiculous this payoff scenario sounds. Could be true... but its crazy!

Think about it. There are at most 1 million HDDVD players out there.
A $150 million dollar payout(advertising and such), which was apparently true(based on the words by toshiba execs)... represented $150 cost per player sold.... and many players sold for less than $150 dollars. So far... close to the truth

Now what is complete speculation... is this $500 million dollar offer to fox and Warner Bros..... which apparently was offered by toshiba, but matched by the BDA? Thats crazy. how could toshiba offer that much? 1 BILLION DOLLARS... based on 1 million players sold. THATS $1150 per user, including the paramount payoff.

You need to show something concrete. That Billion dollar payoff is a ridiculous number. Just try to think about it. Even 500 million is ridiculous

I just dont understand how ridiculous this payoff scenario sounds. Could be true... but its crazy!

Think about it. There are at most 1 million HDDVD players out there.
A $150 million dollar payout(advertising and such), which was apparently true(based on the words by toshiba execs)... represented $150 cost per player sold.... and many players sold for less than $150 dollars.

So far... close to true

Now what is complete speculation... is this $500 million dollar offer to fox and Warner Bros..... which apparently was offered by toshiba, but matched by the BDA?

Thats crazy. how could toshiba offer that much? 1 BILLION DOLLARS... based on 1 million players sold. THATS $1150 per user, including the paramount payoff.

You guys need to come up with something concrete. That Billion dollar payoff is a ridiculous number. Just try to think about it.

In the case of Paramount (and allegedly in the case of Warner), don't think of it in terms of cash; it is more like a "total compensation package." This includes some soft values such as cross-marketing, production subsidy, etc. etc.

So, the value of the services offered plus some amount of actual capital may have equaled $150 million dollars by their valuation. Certainly that much physical capital has not changed hands in these deals for exactly the reasons you've outlined. Just not possible!

All reports state that Warner was not paid anything to switch over, including direct quotes from the CEO. I don't think that statement is in dispute.



I think that's where the confusion is. in the article,it was the reporter that said that he said they didn't take a payout.
it wasn't directly quoted as was other things he said.

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

Proof of that $500M claim?

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

I'm sorry but where in the hell are you getting $500 million from? Honestly, there is not even a poorly written blogger article. The $150 million, while never proven, even had Viacom discussing promotional incentives were made, which at least one can draw an inference.

WB on the other hand made it's decision known months back. Whoever sold the most software won. This was announced in the fall. Now after 52 weeks of Nielson numbers, they decide to take a gigantic bribe, instead of following what they said.

Just enjoy the fact that HDM will survive and downloading will never be a factor. Honestly, if this war dragged out for another year, we would have been stuck in a niche market while the masses adopted 1080i compressed audio via Microsoft.

Take your pick. If you produce any quote from any studio personnel, or even from an established blogger, I will defer to your opinion that the BDA gave WB a $500 million bribe. At this point, it only comes from HD DVD supporters on message boards.

If Paramount does come over to Blu I just hope they release a higher quality version of Stardust. That was a great little movie I found on HD-DVD and I think the video could really be improved. I don't really expect much from paramount though as many of their releases come off as low class affairs.

I have no idea if there was a business deal for Warner. I suspect there was, though not remotely in the range that people are discussing. Those numbers don't seem to make much sense given the size of the market. Legitimate news outlets (NYT) reported the Paramount deal and I'm sure we'll get something from a credible source at some point, but we don't have it yet. We have "insiders" that may or may not be privvy to the negotiations at the highest level (reports are that the CEO of Sony called the CEO of Time Warner) and have restrictions on what they can and cannot say. And they are completely dependent on their sources which may or may not be right. Right now, it is all speculation and we have no way of knowing. But I am confident that the stories will come out soon enough.

Proof of that $500M claim?

How do you prove a rumor? If you can tell me, I can prove it to you I guess. I stated rumored in case you missed that.

Take your pick. If you produce any quote from any studio personnel, or even from an established blogger, I will defer to your opinion that the BDA gave WB a $500 million bribe. At this point, it only comes from HD DVD supporters on message boards.
What the hell are you people talking about? Where did I flat out say anything? I said that both sums of money were RUMORS. Christ.

And you're missing the point: HD DVD bribes, it's terrible, sneaky and underhanded. BDA bribes and it's totally cool, no one has a problem. I'm merely pointing out the double standard/hypocrisy.

How do you prove a rumor? If you can tell me, I can prove it to you I guess. I stated rumored in case you missed that.

Because rumors are more fun to believe than official corporate statements, right? As an employee of one of the Time Warner studios I resent the notion that this decision was the result of payola. It wasn't.

And you're missing the point: HD DVD bribes, it's terrible, sneaky and underhanded. BDA bribes and it's totally cool, no one has a problem. I'm merely pointing out the double standard/hypocrisy.

The rumour with Viacom was believable. At the time the Blu-ray was surging with high 60's and low 70's, plus Blockbuster and Target had just made high profile media commitments. Then you have a sudden drop of support and product pulled and incriminating first-party statements were publicly aired.

The decision by WB is not even close to this.

This is why there is no hypocrisy. The rumour about WB is not founded on even the slighest glimmer of reason; Viacom is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Gotta love how upset the Blu camp was over the rumored $150 million Paramount took to switch but are perfectly okay with the rumored $500 million that WB took.

Bullseye. ;)

Because rumors are more fun to believe than official corporate statements, right?
Yeah, you're right. No one, especially not a big multi-billion dollar corporation, ever lies about--oh, whoops...I mean "spins" stories.

Maybe you're onto something there. The sales prediction thread just became more significant than before this decision :eek:

Brandon

The sales were of DIVX capable players, not software. I think they bailed before DIVX even launched because it was horribly delayed.

How do you prove a rumor? If you can tell me, I can prove it to you I guess. I stated rumored in case you missed that.


How about finding a major publication citing sources claiming it is true. The New York Times reported on the Paramount/Dreamworks payout and sourced two unnamed executives.

How about finding a major publication citing sources claiming it is true. The New York Times reported on the Paramount/Dreamworks payout and sourced two unnamed executives.
Oh. My. God.

I'm not debating the validity of it. I'm not debating whether it actually happened.

It's a rumor, is it not? Regardless of where it came from, who said it, and any sort of factual backing: it. is. a. rumor.

Correct?

Did I say anywhere that it was solid fact? Did I accuse anyone of anything? NO.

I made a commentary on the (lack of) reaction to this rumor about a payout to WB and Fox compared to the (over)reaction of the rumor about a payout to Paramount.

Do I need to post this 10 more times before people understand or is this third time enough to get it?

How about finding a major publication citing sources claiming it is true. The New York Times reported on the Paramount/Dreamworks payout and sourced two unnamed executives.

C'mon now, "reported" means squat - anyone can "report" anything - if it were true, and those "unamed sources" had cred and E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E, then where were the lawsuits? While I do believe Paramount was paid, there was simply no evidence to verify it - and Warners actions all throughout this war suggested they where very happy with HD DVD, if you wanna convince yourself they to were not paid to now suddenly drop HD DVD, go right ahead, but the writing is on the wall thats what happened...then it was quickly erased for obvious reasons. :D

Yeah, you're right. No one, especially not a big multi-billion dollar corporation, ever lies about--oh, whoops...I mean "spins" stories.

Feel free to file a complaint with the SEC if you really believe Warner has $500k stuffed under its pillow. Here's where to report "False or misleading statements about a company (including false or misleading SEC reports or financial statements)".

http://www.sec.gov/complaint/cf942sec9570.htm

It's a rumor, is it not? Regardless of where it came from, who said it, and any sort of factual backing: it. is. a. rumor.

Correct?
Not on here, apparently. According to some distressed format fans, it's signed, sealed, and delivered.

Feel free to file a complaint with the SEC if you really believe Warner has $500k stuffed under its pillow. Here's where to report "False or misleading statements about a company (including false or misleading SEC reports or financial statements)".

http://www.sec.gov/complaint/cf942sec9570.htm

Jesus...are you just looking for an argument? Because, if so, feel free to have one with yourself--I'm not arguing anything nor am I looking to get into one. Stop reading stuff in my posts that isn't there and stop putting words in my mouth. It's annoying and it's going nowhere.

C'mon now, "reported" means squat - anyone can "report" anything - if it were true, and those "unamed sources" had cred and E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E, then where were the lawsuits? While I do believe Paramount was paid, there was simply no evidence to verify it - and Warners actions all throughout this war suggested they where very happy with HD DVD, if you wanna convince yourself they to were not paid to now suddenly drop HD DVD, go right ahead, but the writing is on the wall thats what happened...then it was quickly erased for obvious reasons. :D

No, dude. The NY Times reported it. It has to be true. :rolleyes:

but of course :D:D

Oh. My. God.

I'm not debating the validity of it. I'm not debating whether it actually happened.

It's a rumor, is it not? Regardless of where it came from, who said it, and any sort of factual backing: it. is. a. rumor.

Correct?

Did I say anywhere that it was solid fact? Did I accuse anyone of anything? NO.

I made a commentary on the (lack of) reaction to this rumor about a payout to WB and Fox compared to the (over)reaction of the rumor about a payout to Paramount.

Do I need to post this 10 more times before people understand or is this third time enough to get it?

For the love of . . .

Not all rumors are equal. One picked up, investigated and reported on by major newspapers are more valid than ones that can;t get beyond a post or two on the Internet.

Or would you give equal credence to a rumor I started right here and now?

There is a lack of commentary on the FOX/WB rumors because there is no major sources reporting on it. As much as I like Dave Vaughn, I think his sources are using him on this.

C'mon now, "reported" means squat - anyone can "report" anything - if it were true, and those "unamed sources" had cred and E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E, then where were the lawsuits? While I do believe Paramount was paid, there was simply no evidence to verify it - and Warners actions all throughout this war suggested they where very happy with HD DVD, if you wanna convince yourself they to were not paid to now suddenly drop HD DVD, go right ahead, but the writing is on the wall thats what happened...then it was quickly erased for obvious reasons. :D

Why would there be lawsuits over an activity that was patently not illegal? Toshiba admitted the payout. It is no longer a rumor, but a confessed fact. And there still won't be any lawsuits over it, as there was never anything that could be sued over.

It was business, and I never understood why anyone felt the need to deny it.

Indeed, the reports, if read correctly, are not that WB went blu for the payout, but decided to go blu and got what incentives they could to add value to their decision. Read the executives statement. He does not deny anything except that incentives were a driving factor in the decision.

Try using some critical reading skills on his statements and mine.

Jesus...are you just looking for an argument? Because, if so, feel free to have one with yourself--I'm not arguing anything nor am I looking to get into one. Stop reading stuff in my posts that isn't there and stop putting words in my mouth. It's annoying and it's going nowhere.

My apologies then. All the BS about 500k payoffs (and 500k to Fox) has made me testy. Didn't mean to snap.

Indeed, the reports, if read correctly, are not that WB went blu for the payout, but decided to go blu and got what incentives they could to add value to their decision. Read the executives statement. He does not deny anything except that incentives were a driving factor in the decision.


Suuuuure, no money was involved in any way, gotcha ;) history is going to prove they simply up and dropped the format they favored all along for other reason$....we'll see I suppose.

/sarcasm

When Paramount made their HD-DVD deal, one of the insiders on bluray.com (who I shall not name) addressed a direct question to him in their Insiders Thread concerning whether or not there were "outs" in the contract. The question was basically "Are there escape clauses? For example, if Warner went Blu and Universal went neutral, would Paramount then be able to escape out of the contract?" His response was basically "I will be careful in my wording here, but yes, there are escape clauses but neither of those situations you mention trigger it." He later said he sorta got into some issues with his employer by stepping over the line by saying that, and wouldn't comment further (which is why I'm not mentioning him here). Lots of discussion followed about what exactly that implied - "He said Neither of those, but he didn't mention BOTH" or "Maybe the escape clauses pertain to B&M support like BB and CC" and things like that. But all that followup stuff was just speculation, of course.

Why does anyone care whether incentives were made? Was it your money if true? Uh, no!

Bottom line is Warner will be BR-exclusive by June, and if Paramount and Universal have any sense, and contractual lattitude, they will announce the same as quickly as possible. Then BR will begin the real battle against DVD.

Guys, seriously, who cares who got paid what? I don't see any issues either way - cost of doing business. Who wants and/or needs it more, who's in a stronger position to make moves at what time...All that stuff just comes with the territory of doing business in the corporate world.

I don't have a clue.
And?

and you lost...lol...

If anyone is actually stupid enough to believe that Sony didn't sell the farm to get the 2 studios, I feel sorry for them. HD DVD did it with Paramount, and Sony bought the war with Warner and Fox, roughly a billion dollars. WB didn't choose BD, BD won the auction.

Suuuuure, no money was involved in any way, gotcha ;) history is going to prove they simply up and dropped the format they favored all along for other reason$....we'll see I suppose.

/sarcasm

sarcasm/// who cares??? time to put on your blu shirt and move on man.

If anyone is actually stupid enough to believe that Sony didn't sell the farm to get the 2 studios, I feel sorry for them. HD DVD did it with Paramount, and Sony bought the war with Warner and Fox, roughly a billion dollars. WB didn't choose BD, BD won the auction.


you sure 3:1 sales of their movies and stand alones outselling hd even with 99dollar prices didn't have anything to do with it?? Ofcourse logic isn't something I would expect a hardcore fanboy to understand.

This dispute about whether there was a business arrangment with Warner is both largely irrelevant and approaching the tone that got the HDM sections shut down. Step back and cool down. It doesn't matter and the fact is that nobody knows.

Why does anyone care whether incentives were made? Was it your money if true? Uh, no!

Bottom line is Warner will be BR-exclusive by June, and if Paramount and Universal have any sense, and contractual lattitude, they will announce the same as quickly as possible. Then BR will begin the real battle against DVD.

I agree, in the end it doesn't really matter, just saying on principal, Blu Ray never won over the general public as some guys floating around here are boasting like - Sony simply had more resource$ and basically shoved their format on us...not saying its wrong, but that is how they won, I mean having to pay retail chains to only carry your player, etc, c'mon, HD DVD had the same opportunity to do stuff like that as well, but, oh well, they didn't and thats that. Sony bought the victory, HD DVD didn't necessarily lose because they had a shoddy product, they simply got out hu$tled behind closed doors...just wish the BR fans would quit acting like the world took part in this war and chose BR in a landslide, please, the world hardly even knew about it, much less have a chance to see the fight, Sony ensured that.

you sure 3:1 sales of their movies and stand alones outselling hd even with 99dollar prices didn't have anything to do with it?? Ofcourse logic isn't something I would expect a hardcore fanboy to understand.

So genius, why were they going to go HD DVD first until FOX pulled out? Obviously they must be as blind as the "hardcore fan boys".:rolleyes:
You can tell yourself it wasn't the $$$, and while you are doing it say hi to the Easter Bunny for us.

I personally don't care that it may very well have been money that swayed Warner (I believe it was, like I said, Warners ACTIONS showed the format they favored all along was HD DVD, then BANG, this happens, hmmmm :rolleyes:) its just sad that the war didn't get to the next level, the big stage, where both formats pulled out all the stops with having all the major studios putting out the very best movies they had to offer at great prices, etc. Both formats are still today sitting at niche status, the war was still in its early stages IMO, many predicted it would run on for several more years while the gereral consuming public chose the victor via selection, price, quality, features, reliability, etc...sadly, that never even came close to happening - the winner was selected by the suits behind closed doors, not you or I...shame.

So genius, why were they going to go HD DVD first until FOX pulled out?

ppphhhttt.... okay, and where is your proof this ever happened, Mr. Genius? post a link of even one reputable news agency which has published a report of this as fact with witnesses willing to go on the record. no? didn't think so.

The fact that New Line released "Shoot 'em Up!" with a Blu-ray only capable bitrate is very telling. Your evidence (or lack thereof), not so much. :rolleyes:

I personally don't care that it may very well have been money that swayed Warner (I believe it was, like I said, Warners ACTIONS showed the format they favored all along was HD DVD, then BANG, this happens, hmmmm :rolleyes:) its just sad that the war didn't get to the next level, the big stage, where both formats pulled out all the stops with having all the major studios putting out the very best movies they had to offer at great prices, etc. Both formats are still today sitting at niche status, the war was still in its early stages IMO, many predicted it would run on for several more years while the gereral consuming public chose the victor via selection, price, quality, features, reliability, etc...sadly, that never even came close to happening - the winner was selected by the suits behind closed doors, not you or I...shame.What a load. Every single studio, manufacturer, editor, and journalist that put a pen to ink in the last year said that the format war itself was killing HDM. The "general consuming public" was choosing not to get involved. The consumer wasn't making a choice, so in order to save HDM, the companies made the format war a non-issue.

Get real son, that WAS my point...somebody other than us dictated the outcome. :rolleyes:"We" (the consumers) weren't deciding. If we were, all the hardware and software sales advantages were with Blu-ray.

The outcome was made by somebody other than us, period...that was my point, nothing more.

The outcome was made by somebody other than us, period...that was my point, nothing more.

Somebody other than "us", sure, but if you look at both the US and global high-def sales, then you'll see that the decision came down on the side that the majority of "us" were supporting anyway... so not sure what you're complaint would be since it seems the will of the 'people' has been executed either way.

I know that at the minimum, my own preferences are being supported by Warner's move. You should in fact change your sig to: Warner might not have chosen PS3-Ray, if the masses hadn't... and it'd be just as correct and 'clever.'

Anyway to the topic - since none of this is on it - I wouldn't be surprised if Paramount didn't have an escape clause; in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. That said, it's another matter between them having the option and them executing it. I'm hoping for news as soon as CES, but truth be told the war isn't ended just yet, even if the first nuclear bomb has gone off.

Heh, sorry, can't see it that way, and IMO, my sig is dead right, guess that might be why some folks don't likey...the masses never voted, both formats are still way niche as we sit here. ;)

Sony had the mean$ to end the war and they did...but all is fair the way I see it, so more power to 'em, but again, J6P IS the jury and he never even entered the courtroom...say what you will, Sony told the judge to stop it before the lawyers even could FULLY present their case.

Peace and goodnight. :)

Since I wrote an article on this subject, let me address this.

I was very upset about the Paramount move because it was anti-consumer. I also said--and this is the key point--that changed the historical rules concerning how studios deal with their customers and formats to which they have committed. I predicted in that article that, now that the rules were changed, we would see a bidding war for Warners and that Warners would go exclusive one way or the other.

Whether or not Warners was paid I do not know. I think it is well established that Paramount was paid. I am sorry that we have come to a situation where companies dump on their customers by reneging on their apparent commitments.

At least, we were all forwarned that this was coming. I told all of my friends this fall to absolutely not believe any of the studio alliances, they were all subject to expedient behaviour.

I also believe that Toshiba would have served its own interests better in using their money last August in some way that would have actually helped their customers. For example, buy support from an exclusive Blu-ray studio. This would have gained them content without hurting Blu-ray customers. Or lower the prices in August.

It is clear that Toshiba hurt Blu-ray. It is also possible that Toshiba hurt their own chances. This is because their buyout of Paramount convinced many potential customers that the situation was highly unstable and that they could not depend on the word or integrity of any of these companies. So, when Toshiba reached for a broadening of their penetration with "popular prices", they found customers were wary.

Why should I buy the bargain "razor" if I am concerned that the "blade" manufacturers will renege?

Post of the week! Well said and well reasoned. Congratulations, sir!

Heh, sorry, can't see it that way, and IMO, my sig is dead right...

I never said your sig is wrong, I simply pointed out that there's multiple angles from which to view a situation, and amended that the one I offered up is as correct as yours. As for jurys, J6P, and the masses, that's why I feel that enlightened dictatorship can offer up many an advantage to democracy at times; I cannot trust J6P to understand every situation in which he is asked to vote. Blu-ray is a superior long-term technology to HD DVD, even if HD DVD offers up a more 'complete' experience in the year 2007; should the later win based on the grass-roots efforts of rdjam and other HD DVD activists? No, it should not.

Whatever the cause of Warner's move, I am very much glad for it. Down the continued road of format war lay an optical wasteland of consumer confusion and apathy. As a supposed "consumer advocate" you should be glad that this thing was ended before hundreds of thousands/millions more people were burned by the eventual shake-out.

The end results were all I cared about, and when I bought into HD DVD, the movies flat out looked better, nevermind specs, it was BR that had to play catch up, it was their quality that was lagging, not the "inferior technology"....but eventually they did. However, I had already started in with HD DVD, I feel duped even...but they did deliver, the movies look just as good as BR, it came out first, it was priced better, and for my tastes, the selection was even better...of mother effin' course I sound bitter now. =)

Sucks because I'm really into Hidef now but figue I'm going to have to wait a while before I buy into BR, not sure when somebody will step in with a $200-$300 2.0 stand alone player and a few more movies suited to my tates...things that HD DVD already had given me.

Come on studios switch to Blu already!!! We are so so close to ending this mess and FINALLY getting on the right path of having ONE format!!

I agree, in the end it doesn't really matter, just saying on principal, Blu Ray never won over the general public as some guys floating around here are boasting like - Sony simply had more resource$ and basically shoved their format on us...not saying its wrong, but that is how they won, I mean having to pay retail chains to only carry your player, etc, c'mon, HD DVD had the same opportunity to do stuff like that as well, but, oh well, they didn't and thats that. Sony bought the victory, HD DVD didn't necessarily lose because they had a shoddy product, they simply got out hu$tled behind closed doors...just wish the BR fans would quit acting like the world took part in this war and chose BR in a landslide, please, the world hardly even knew about it, much less have a chance to see the fight, Sony ensured that.

But this is about business and one company's view of potential revenue. I guarantee Sony would not have sunk the money they have, and Toshiba also for that matter, if they did not think that the future payout was worthwhile. As someone who has been format agnostic since the first day each was available, I think both camps have engaged in similar, but perfectly acceptable business practices. So, if our favorite format is either the winner or the loser should not really matter as long as their is one left standing.

If I were Warner, I would have done as they have done: follow the disc sales! We can debate player sales and whether to include or not include the PS3, but the overall disc sales numbers clearly favor BR. Even more so outside the USA.

I for one, applaud this move by Warner - shame they didn't do it before Paramount went HDDVD. Then things really would be over for the 'war'.

The 150 milltion was not well spent then if there was such an easy escape clause..

I hope Paramount and Universal switch to Blu-Ray soon.

They've given enough charity to HD-DVD.

It's time they started making some money with Blu-Ray.

Can't wait to get Transformers on Blu-ray with a lossless track, so people will still continue to complain about some kind of LFE issue.

Can't wait to get Transformers on Blu-ray with a lossless track, so people will still continue to complain about some kind of LFE issue.

They need to have their hearing aids checked. The track has enough bass to have my neighbor inquire what movie I was watching.

If I were Warner, I would have done as they have done: follow the disc sales! We can debate player sales and whether to include or not include the PS3, but the overall disc sales numbers clearly favor BR. Even more so outside the USA.

But thats the thing that makes this smell fishy, Warner was NOT concerned with "disc sale numbers"...face it, that was not an issue with them at this early stage, consider that they were releasing specific titles ONLY on HD DVD, like Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, Matrix set (on a strategic date to counter a MAJOR BR release no less), etc, if the HD DVD disc sales were so horrid in Warners eyes, then why was that going on? Clearly something went on behind the door that we will never know about, but the writing is on the wall that some very influential people got Warner to suddenly have a change of heart...opinions are like A-holes and everyone has one, but IMO, it reeks of $$$, just like the Paramount thing...oh well, tis all over but the shouting now, and I'm done shouting. :D

Can't wait to get Transformers on Blu-ray with a lossless track, so people will still continue to complain about some kind of LFE issue.

Yeah, and then we can actually get it in HD. Because, as Michael Bay said, obviously taking the "Beyond High Definition" slogan literally, Blu-ray is higher definition than HD DVD (which is just barely better than DVD).

So now we can finally see it in 1080p VC-1 quality. You know...different than the 1080p VC-1 quality we already have it in.

It's guys like Michael Bay and all the stupid things they say that really make me hate that format.

Maybe it is like "an eye for eye" or "fight fire with fire" sort of thing...if it were true that is. I have yet to see anything that says there was any money involved.

Regardless, most people may not believe it is right for studios to accept dollars for favoritism ... but who did it first? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. All is fair in love and war ... and business? :)

Have I mentioned enough Cliches yet? :)

How do you prove a rumor? If you can tell me, I can prove it to you I guess. I stated rumored in case you missed that.


What the hell are you people talking about? Where did I flat out say anything? I said that both sums of money were RUMORS. Christ.

And you're missing the point: HD DVD bribes, it's terrible, sneaky and underhanded. BDA bribes and it's totally cool, no one has a problem. I'm merely pointing out the double standard/hypocrisy.

All of the HD-DVD fans calling the Blu-ray Disc fans hypocrites for being upset with Paramount but not with Warner are hypocrites themselves. Even if this $500 million pay is real, all it means is that it was the winning bid. In this situation, Toshiba was already trying to do what Sony did. Toshiba tried to buy off Warner and Fox. And they failed, whether it was the result of being outbid or if the company's decision was based on other criteria, it doesn't matter.

Cry foul all you want about about this supposed payoff - Toshiba was trying to do the exact same thing. Why should Blu-ray fans be upset? Should they want Sony to take the high road and do nothing while Toshiba buys up the studios and drives them out of the business? This is just HD-DVD fans being bitter and getting in their parting shots.

His response was basically "I will be careful in my wording here, but yes, there are escape clauses but neither of those situations you mention trigger it."

Finally, some relevant information to this thread. This is very interesting, as it appears if this is true then either Paramount would have to ask out of their contract, breach it, or wait for some other conditions to be met before they can opt-out.

Just wanted to get that in before this thread get's locked cause of all of the guys that have gone from the state of denial into full on attack mode :eek:

Brandon

Even if the payout is only a rumor. Please remember it is MICROSOFT and Toshiba backing HD-DVD and knowing how Bill Gates like to use money to buy up everything and everyone. I would not doubt that Bill Gates just tried to throw 500 mil to both Warner and Fox to switch and Sony had no choice but to match. That is probably why HD-DVD planned a 2 hour hoopla at CES but now that Warner chose blu, everything got cancelled.

But thats the thing that makes this smell fishy, Warner was NOT concerned with "disc sale numbers"...face it, that was not an issue with them at this early stage, consider that they were releasing specific titles ONLY on HD DVD, like Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, Matrix set (on a strategic date to counter a MAJOR BR release no less), etc, if the HD DVD disc sales were so horrid in Warners eyes, then why was that going on? Clearly something went on behind the door that we will never know about, but the writing is on the wall that some very influential people got Warner to suddenly have a change of heart...opinions are like A-holes and everyone has one, but IMO, it reeks of $$$, just like the Paramount thing...oh well, tis all over but the shouting now, and I'm done shouting. :D

You forget that Warner has a new CEO. It's likely that the previous execs prefered HD DVD.

If anyone is actually stupid enough to believe that Sony didn't sell the farm to get the 2 studios, I feel sorry for them. HD DVD did it with Paramount, and Sony bought the war with Warner and Fox, roughly a billion dollars. WB didn't choose BD, BD won the auction.

Are you guys even thinking. Jeez. DO YOU REALLY THINK toshiba could put 1 BILLION DOLLARS on the table?

Think about it for 1 second. 1 Billion dollars+150 million for paramount. Less than 1 million HDDVD players sold. Thats more than $1150 per HDDVD player sold.

How much do HDDVD players sell for again? less than $200 with 10 free movies. Why would Toshiba even consider that? Thats crazy. It would be cheaper for them to give away 5 million players with 5 Free MIR.... for free.... FREE.

Dont worry, its just a matter of time before Paramount and Uni go Blu exclusive. They will see how much money will be lost by supporting the dead format of HD while all the other studios are making huge revenue from Blu ray sales. I honestly believe Universal will go neutral first and then Blu exclusive before Paramount, and that Paramount will jump over to Blu exclusive immediately after Uni does.

The end results were all I cared about, and when I bought into HD DVD, the movies flat out looked better, nevermind specs, it was BR that had to play catch up, it was their quality that was lagging, not the "inferior technology"....but eventually they did. However, I had already started in with HD DVD, I feel duped even...but they did deliver, the movies look just as good as BR, it came out first, it was priced better, and for my tastes, the selection was even better...of mother effin' course I sound bitter now. =)

Sucks because I'm really into Hidef now but figue I'm going to have to wait a while before I buy into BR, not sure when somebody will step in with a $200-$300 2.0 stand alone player and a few more movies suited to my tates...things that HD DVD already had given me.

I dont know why you feel duped. You got the cheaper hardware, you enjoyed it for year/s.. and in your opinion, the quality was just as good as BD.

You had to know from the beginning that the PS3's inclusion of BD, was going to be the eventual end of HDDVD. Esp since MSFT didnt include HDDVD, and their Add-on was pretty weak.

Are you guys even thinking. Jeez. DO YOU REALLY THINK toshiba could put 1 BILLION DOLLARS on the table?

Think about it for 1 second. 1 Billion dollars+150 million for paramount. Less than 1 million HDDVD players sold. Thats more than $1150 per HDDVD player sold.

How much do HDDVD players sell for again? less than $200 with 10 free movies. Why would Toshiba even consider that? Thats crazy. It would be cheaper for them to give away 5 million players with 5 Free MIR.... for free.... FREE.

Not a Billion. A mere 650M.

According to insiders that post here Warner turned down $250M during the Paramount switch and have had their hands out since then. According to numerous other reports they received 500M. Now when I say they got $500M I am sure none of it was cash and it was all marketing considerations (like Paramount), allowing the Warner guy to say he didn't take any money (yeah right, I dare you to tell your stockholders you turned down half a Bill). All that means is that Sony will put ads on TV for Warner titles and at the end throw on an "available on BD". According to MANY sources Warner was trying to get Fox to turn Red. Warner wanted the format war over and knew the only way to get it over and have red win was to get a Blu studio to some with them. Fox may or may not have been ever considering such a move but they DAMN SURE knew how much leverage they had at the moment. Sources said they were able to secure $150M. I think Sony got off easy there. Either way, thats $650M that Sony paid up. That leaves their loss/investment in Blu/PS3 somewhere around $7-8B. We'll soon see how they plan to get all that money back.

I dont know why you feel duped. You got the cheaper hardware, you enjoyed it for year/s.. and in your opinion, the quality was just as good as BD.

You had to know from the beginning that the PS3's inclusion of BD, was going to be the eventual end of HDDVD. Esp since MSFT didnt include HDDVD, and their Add-on was pretty weak.

Except the PS3s inclusion of a BD drive had nothing to do with WBs switching. All the PS3 did was make the ratio 1.85 to 1. Hardly anything to proclaim as definitive or winning especially in the numbers sold.

$500 million is why BD got WB.

Does anyone read the insider thread anymore or is it easier to just keep your head in the clouds and ignore fairly standard business practices (buy outs and corporations are like PB & J)?

Not a Billion. A mere 650M.

According to insiders that post here Warner turned down $250M during the Paramount switch and have had their hands out since then. According to numerous other reports they received 500M. Now when I say they got $500M I am sure none of it was cash and it was all marketing considerations (like Paramount), allowing the Warner guy to say he didn't take any money (yeah right, I dare you to tell your stockholders you turned down half a Bill). All that means is that Sony will put ads on TV for Warner titles and at the end throw on an "available on BD". According to MANY sources Warner was trying to get Fox to turn Red. Warner wanted the format war over and knew the only way to get it over and have red win was to get a Blu studio to some with them. Fox may or may not have been ever considering such a move but they DAMN SURE knew how much leverage they had at the moment. Sources said they were able to secure $150M. I think Sony got off easy there. Either way, thats $650M that Sony paid up. That leaves their loss/investment in Blu/PS3 somewhere around $7-8B. We'll soon see how they plan to get all that money back.

Well according to MANY RELIABLE insiders with a PROVEN track record the PAYOFF never took place and FOX and WB were NEVER going to go red.

Well according to MANY RELIABLE insiders with a PROVEN track record the PAYOFF never took place and FOX and WB were NEVER going to go red.

Link? Names? Are they woking for a blu studio or affiliate?

Dave Vauhgn's word has been solid gold on everything he has predicted or talked about.

When Dave reports the weekly sales figures ahead of release everyone listens and Blu fans rejoice but if he reports news that is bad for blu there are all kinds of people that want to throw him under the bus.

Notice, I never said Fox was going to switch. Just that they had the opportunity to sit down with Sony and say "I can bring your world down. Pay me".

Considering how they shafted the BDA, I don't think they'll be getting much of a deal, frankly.

Paramount (Viacom) will get what they deserve when they re-enter the BD market. Do not expect 1 cent to be paid by the BDA. :)

When Dave reports the weekly sales figures ahead of release everyone listens and Blu fans rejoice but if he reports news that is bad for blu there are all kinds of people that want to throw him under the bus.

Notice, I never said Fox was going to switch. Just that they had the opportunity to sit down with Sony and say "I can bring your world down. Pay me".

At this point, anyone who thinks otherwise about the pay out is naive or still in the "HD DVD vs Blu Ray" smack down mode.

And thats been my biggest complaint of the die hard Blu crowd for the last year. When the argument or source fits thier needs the info is treated as the second coming of Christ, otherwise there is no argument and the source is sketchy, even ifs the same source or info...

Paramount (Viacom) will get what they deserve when they re-enter the BD market. Do not expect 1 cent to be paid by the BDA. :)

Then don't expect Paramount to switch to a niche format. The arrogance of Sony and the BDA applauded in these threads is why we have a format war to begin with.

And thats been my biggest complaint of the die hard Blu crowd for the last year. When the argument or source fits thier needs the info is treated as the second coming of Christ, otherwise there is no argument and the source is sketchy, even ifs the same source or info...

And the die hard HD-DVD crowd is any different? Are you actually trying to ascribe some kind of moral high ground to format choice?

Link? Names? Are they woking for a blu studio or affiliate?

Dave Vauhgn's word has been solid gold on everything he has predicted or talked about.

I tend to believe Penton Man a little more.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=478095&postcount=1988

When asked about how close Fox was to going red he responded:

"About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.
Please, spare me anymore after-the-fact internet intrigue."

And the die hard HD-DVD crowd is any different? Are you actually trying to ascribe some kind of moral high ground to format choice?

Yup.

Link? Names? Are they woking for a blu studio or affiliate?

Dave Vauhgn's word has been solid gold on everything he has predicted or talked about.

Really? Come over to Blu-ray.com and see how RELIABLE our insiders are. NOT once did they report false information. NOT ONCE, and EVERYTHING the insiders over there said HAPPENED. Go read the insider threads check the dates when the insiders gave their tidbits about certain events happening and see their track record because everything they said would HAPPEN did including the Paramount deal and the WB deal and everything in between including the Cookeson deal.

If that is true, I hope Warner got enough money for the court battle they are about to face.

Why would Toshiba go through the trouble? You know, these companies have to continuing doing business after this whole thing is over. Going through the hassle when it's clear that HD DVD is on its last legs (assuming Paramount and Universal jump ship), would just be throwing good money after bad, and burning a bridge they need to cross in the future.

I tend to believe Penton Man a little more.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=478095&postcount=1988

When asked about how close Fox was to going red he responded:

"About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.
Please, spare me anymore after-the-fact internet intrigue."

For those not aware of Penton's history, he hinted at the Blockbuster move before it happened, he predicted Paramount's move days before it happened, he called the Target deal before it happened as well as a number of other, smaller predictions that were all borne out. He uses a variety of cryptic clues which are usually quite obvious.

That leaves their loss/investment in Blu/PS3 somewhere around $7-8B. We'll soon see how they plan to get all that money back.
The same way they got back their investment in DVD/PS2 back (which also sold for a loss at the beginning).

They sold 120 million PS2s. Bingo, bango, bongo, baby. Playstation is as much a household name as Mickey Mouse. When those PS2 owners are ready to upgrade, Sony is ready to cash in.

They don't have to switch, technically, because their HDM format of "choice" is dead.

And who loses out? The company making oodles of money off of S DVD sales with no vested interest in either HDM format, or the company that has spent around 8 billion bones to make sure its baby lives past infancy and needs unanimous support from all the studios before it can even think about competing with S DVD?

If the HDM market actually mattered you guys would have a point, until then Paramount and Universal can take or leave any offer (or lack thereof) from the BDA and still be golden with S DVD sales for years to come and not have to worry about 8 billions dollars some other companies need to balance out.

For those not aware of Penton's history, he hinted at the Blockbuster move before it happened, he predicted Paramount's move days before it happened, he called the Target deal before it happened as well as a number of other, smaller predictions that were all borne out. He uses a variety of cryptic clues which are usually quite obvious.

Thank you.:)

The same way they got back their investment in DVD/PS2 back (which also sold for a loss at the beginning).

They sold 120 million PS2s. Bingo, bango, bongo, baby. Playstation is as much a household name as Mickey Mouse. When those PS2 owners are ready to upgrade, Sony is ready to cash in.

Yes! and the PS3 has been a runaway success, right? Definitely on pace to match the PS2...

I hope Paramount and Universal switch to Blu-Ray soon.

They've given enough charity to HD-DVD.

It's time they started making some money with Blu-Ray.

May your Blu Ray player malfunction and force all of your movie playback to 480i

For those not aware of Penton's history, he hinted at the Blockbuster move before it happened, he predicted Paramount's move days before it happened, he called the Target deal before it happened as well as a number of other, smaller predictions that were all borne out. He uses a variety of cryptic clues which are usually quite obvious.

Yep, and I also thought this comment was extremely interesting:

'If people care to dwell now on past history, I think some should be asking how irritated Toshiba is about a certain software company for abandoning them during the defining moment of the format war.
In keeping with your “flirting” theme, it was kinda like...

Tosh………
”But you promised you would marry me and it turned out to be a one night stand.”

Software Company……..
“Wam, Bam………Thank You Mam…..It’s been swell but, marry into a family with packaged goods?,…… sorry you got the wrong impression”.'

Really? Come over to Blu-ray.com and see how RELIABLE our insiders are. NOT once did they report false information. NOT ONCE, and EVERYTHING the insiders over there said HAPPENED. Go read the insider threads check the dates when the insiders gave their tidbits about certain events happening and see their track record because everything they said would HAPPEN did including the Paramount deal and the WB deal and everything in between including the Cookeson deal.

And what has Dave Vaughn said that was wrong? Using Blu-Ray.com as a source for anything but humor and the sad state of humanity is absurd.

Yup.

Then you're just another fanboy full of crap or you're someone who's completely unwilling to see an argument from an opposing viewpoint. Idiot fanboys are idiot fanboys, regardless of their allegiances and both formats have more than their fair share. For every instance of poor behavior, idiocy, self-importance or selective hearing you see from Blu-ray fans, I've seen just as much from HD-DVD fans.

Then you're just another fanboy full of crap or you're someone who's completely unwilling to see an argument from an opposing viewpoint. Idiot fanboys are idiot fanboys, regardless of their allegiances and both formats have more than their fair share. For every instance of poor behavior, idiocy, self-importance or selective hearing you see from Blu-ray fans, I've seen just as much from HD-DVD fans.

Actually, Im format neutral and I plan on abandoning HD DVD permanently before the real pooh hits the fan due to the WB announcement.

That doesn't change the fact that BD die hards are some of the most arrogant and immature people I have ever dealt with on forums in my entire intra-web existence.

LOL, sounds like your upset because of the insiders you believed and trusted let you down, or should I say led you to believe a certain format would come out on top and when HD DVD lost WB, you started believing rumors about payoffs and how close this was and how close that was. Instead of accepting the fact that HD DVD is all but dead, and Blu ray is the format of choice among the majority of the movie industry and the majority consumers.

No, actually. I was uncertain as to who would win or what WB would due, hence my neutrality.

Now try to refute my post by discrediting Dave Vaughn or stop posting. I'll take his word over any other insider. He always delivers and is format neutral.

Now try and refute my post about reliable insiders at Bluray.com. I'll take their word over ANY of your insiders. They ALWAYS deliver!

God, now AVS is getting spill over from Blu-Ray.com.

it was nice having prices drop while it lasted

God, now AVS is getting spill over from Blu-Ray.com.

maybe its because they are more reliable?

God, now AVS is getting spill over from Blu-Ray.com.

Has been since Friday morning.

maybe its because they are more reliable?

Yes! Thats exactly why.

Now try and refute my post about reliable insiders at Bluray.com. I'll take their word over ANY of your insiders. They ALWAYS deliver! They did, they said Blu ray would win, we (blu ray supporters) are in a good position, just be patient. Let things play out, sooner than later things will happen in a positive way for Blu ray and by god if they didnt deliver.

So your blu insiders have crystal balls that can see into the future?

Predicting an outcome is nowhere near the same thing as providing credible information.

Yes! and the PS3 has been a runaway success, right? Definitely on pace to match the PS2...
Funny you mention that. It actually does have roughly the same sales pace as the PS2 for the first 12 months.

So your blu insiders have crystal balls that can see into the future?

Predicting an outcome is nowhere near the same thing as providing credible information.

Thank you. I was too annoyed to explain that because I knew all I would get is a Blu-Ray.com name drop, as you likely will...

Funny you mention that. It actually does have roughly the same sales pace as the PS2 for the first 12 months.

No, it doesn't. At all. It would have to have sold around 25-35 million consoles worldwide by this March for that to happen.

No, it doesn't. At all. It would have to have sold around 25-35 million consoles worldwide by this March for that to happen.
Actually, it does. (http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php?cons1=PS&reg1=All&cons2=PS2&reg2=All&cons3=PS3&reg3=All&weeks=52)

And the PS3 has vastly outsold the PS1 for its first year; the PS1 went on to sell over 100 million units.

I think Sony's bank account will be very happy with 100+ million units over the PS3s lifetime.

Actually, it does. (http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php?cons1=PS&reg1=All&cons2=PS2&reg2=All&cons3=PS3&reg3=All&weeks=52)

And the PS3 has vastly outsold the PS1 for its first year; the PS1 went on to sell over 100 million units.

I think Sony's bank account will be very happy with 100+ million units over the PS3s lifetime.

I think the chart you used is VGChartz, which means its worthless. And even that chart has the PS2 selling roughly 1.5 million more in the same time frame. Hardly on the same pace visually and mathematically.

The PS1 took off when FF7 came out. I know, I owned a launch unit that collected dust until that day came.

And I also said March.

It'll depend on what Toshiba will do before May.

You don't have proof they didn't take a pay off. All you have is the Warner CEO saying they didn't take money to switch, not that they didn't take money. The way I figure it, Warner was going to switch and they were gong to take the money anyway. Why wouldn't they?

there you go...pure logical weakness. trying to prove a negative. the only evidence about a payoff lies in the comments of CEO. there is nothing to dispute that. implications and assumptions /= proof or reality. until the financials are released, you're better off speculating elsewhere.

look--stop acting like children on this. the world will be here tomorrow, and the next day, and many generations to come. Maybe go fishing, take a hike, play catch with the kids....the end of this war will not make your life any crappier, I promise.

I think the chart you used is VGChartz, which means its worthless. And even that chart has the PS2 selling roughly 1.5 million more in the same time frame. Hardly on the same pace visually and mathematically.

The PS1 took off when FF7 came out. I know, I owned a launch unit that collected dust until that day came.

And I also said March.

oh? please explain why. you can't just throw out someone's evidence with a simple claim of "that's worthless" without providing an explanation; let alone providing no evidence of your own to support your counterargument. so, what makes a chart from VgChartz worthless? what is it about their methods of statistical analysis that do not meet your standards? (seriously, I want to know. I know nothing about them myself such that I can honestly critique them; it's just that your response is so pedestrian that I threw-up a little, and had to respond)

man...the internet really has killed debate. why do you guys even try? do you think these posts will actually amount to anything?

Oh. My. God.

I'm not debating the validity of it. I'm not debating whether it actually happened.

It's a rumor, is it not? Regardless of where it came from, who said it, and any sort of factual backing: it. is. a. rumor.

Correct?

Did I say anywhere that it was solid fact? Did I accuse anyone of anything? NO.

I made a commentary on the (lack of) reaction to this rumor about a payout to WB and Fox compared to the (over)reaction of the rumor about a payout to Paramount.

Do I need to post this 10 more times before people understand or is this third time enough to get it?

again, for the reading impaired:

there is a lack of reaction to this rumor because there is a significant lack of sources to support such rumor; unlike in the case of Paramount. Those reports were published as verified fact; hence the significant reaction. Once a credible source comes forth with info regarding Warner's decision, then there will certainly be more reaction...and plenty more conspiracies to spin...and spin...and spin...

Even if the payout is only a rumor. Please remember it is MICROSOFT and Toshiba backing HD-DVD and knowing how Bill Gates like to use money to buy up everything and everyone. I would not doubt that Bill Gates just tried to throw 500 mil to both Warner and Fox to switch and Sony had no choice but to match. That is probably why HD-DVD planned a 2 hour hoopla at CES but now that Warner chose blu, everything got cancelled.

This is most accurate as to how it happened. During the whole Paramount situation, over 200 million was offered to Warner but they refused at that point in time. Perhaps knowing they could get even more money by waiting.. In this case, they waited and may have gotten a huge lump sum payout from the wining bidder. However the BDA had no reason to target any studio's first since they were winning this format war the entire year. It is the safest bet that if money was thrown at Warner, it was done by Toshiba/Microsoft first and then the BDA got the call asking to match it or go above the amount..

So now the number is $650 million(for fox and Warner). WHich is still pretty crazy, to think that toshiba has that much money to toss around in favor of HDDVD.

Think about it. $150 million for paramount+$650 million more... for the less than 1 million hddvd players sold? That still equates to HDDVD paying over $800 per player. How much were most players sold at? $200, $300? The math, just isnt there to support these types of numbers

You will have to cite some credible sources. ANd not this David vaughn insider. I have seen a lot of rumors from various HDDVD insiders that never panned out. 50GB Dual layer BD-roms are an impossible myth, 51GB TL HDDVD discs, walmart ilo hddvd players, every toshiba computer with a built in Hddvd drive, warner exclusivity, xbox's with hddvd drive built in... etc.

I tend to believe Penton Man a little more.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=478095&postcount=1988

When asked about how close Fox was to going red he responded:

"About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.
Please, spare me anymore after-the-fact internet intrigue."

Yeah, Penton's a "first-hand" source in that he's obviously a true deep insider himself. Dave has good info (and posts it much more directly, versus Penton's cryptic clues), but he's more of a "second-hand source" - he gets most of his info from his sources/contacts, who are first-hand sources like Penton.

Fox dipped their feet with the HD-DVD group just to get a payout from Sony (why not?) but Penton's probably right and they really never truly were considering switching. DV admits that his sources are pro-HDDVD, so of course he'd get the spin that they got from Fox - "We're thinking about it". But from everything we know about Fox's history in this format war, particularly their adament region coding and BD+ support, it's doubtful they really were serious about it.

I think the chart you used is VGChartz, which means its worthless. And even that chart has the PS2 selling roughly 1.5 million more in the same time frame. Hardly on the same pace visually and mathematically.

The PS1 took off when FF7 came out. I know, I owned a launch unit that collected dust until that day came.

And I also said March.

Face it, your numbers were wrong. http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps2_e.html PS2 didn't reach 25 million shipped units until 12/31/01, 1 year and 8 months after it was launched. It took more than 2 years to reach 35 million units.

Really? Come over to Blu-ray.com and see how RELIABLE our insiders are. NOT once did they report false information. NOT ONCE, and EVERYTHING the insiders over there said HAPPENED. Go read the insider threads check the dates when the insiders gave their tidbits about certain events happening and see their track record because everything they said would HAPPEN did including the Paramount deal and the WB deal and everything in between including the Cookeson deal.

I would but I am not welcome there. Anyone who doesn't bleed blu isn't welcome there. We have blu supporters on this forum that get kicked out of BD.com because they aren't fanatical enough and have the audacity to question the high command of the blu-ray army.

You have 8 posts. You clearly have not spent time on the 350 pages of the last two insiders threads here. I don't have any issue with Talk or Penton other than they left what was at one time our rather neutral site to spend it full time preaching to the lathered choir at BD.com. Give me an insider who is format neutral (and was thrilled about the Warner decision) over an insider who has an obvious interest. Why? Because there is no way you would ever get negative BD info from a BD insider. It wasn't until the Warner news hit that Talk FINALLY admitted there was some add'l cost in manufacturing for BD. A year after the discussion/debate had started.

I do read all the insider info I can on both sides which is why I altered my tale to include Fox not utilizing the opportunity to shift allegiances but rather as a strong negotiating position.

If ANY of you think a CEO is going to turn down a half a billion dollars you are nuts. There are plenty of links out there. I dare him to stand up at his next board of directors meeting and tell them he didn't get anything. I think Paramount left because they saw the manufacturing issues with BD, and limited future investment; and I think Warner left to finish off the war. No money the other side threw out there was going to fix these issues, but you can be damn sure they were both going to get as much as they could out of the deal.

"Dual format", "Format neutral", "purple"....what do all these labels have in common ???...hush now baby, go to sleep...I'll sing you a lullaby....

Dave Vaughn has said repeatedly that he's not an insider. He gets secondhand information from other insiders. That's a big difference.

I fear in this case it exposes him to be potentially used to push information that might not be factually true, or at least has quite the spin on it.

Getting sales figures is one thing. Those are facts. What types of negotiations may have happened on both sides around Warner Brothers is a dangerous grey area.

Also, I think it's obvious his inside sources are not from the Blu side. Hence, I'm skeptical of these figures and the idea that Fox who directly called out the Paramount payoff in the media was anywhere close to switching over.


No, actually. I was uncertain as to who would win or what WB would due, hence my neutrality.

Now try to refute my post by discrediting Dave Vaughn or stop posting. I'll take his word over any other insider. He always delivers and is format neutral.

Ever hear of "good faith" as it pertains to a contract?


ever hear of letting go? ;)

again, for the reading impaired:

there is a lack of reaction to this rumor because there is a significant lack of sources to support such rumor; unlike in the case of Paramount. Those reports were published as verified fact; hence the significant reaction. Once a credible source comes forth with info regarding Warner's decision, then there will certainly be more reaction...and plenty more conspiracies to spin...and spin...and spin...

You mean a credible unidentified source who claims two unnamed executives took $x million dollars for their support?

Yeah, I guess I can see how that would add some sort of weight to the rumors about FOX/WB.

You've got a great point. I think I saw a format neutral insider on AVS riding a unicorn and talking to a leprechaun. :rolleyes:You saw that too?:)

Face it, your numbers were wrong. http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps2_e.html PS2 didn't reach 25 million shipped units until 12/31/01, 1 year and 8 months after it was launched. It took more than 2 years to reach 35 million units.

Point coneded (although I said March, therefore Im 5 months off on the 25 million mark and thats something the PS3 isn't going to do by July or August of this year, hence my point).

The point Im making is that the PS2 was sold out at launch and sold out the next few holiday seasons at most B&M retailers.

The PS3, not so much... saying otherwise or having an argument about specifics is just that, arguing for the sake of arguing.

I own a PS3 and love it, but I also don't have blu-blinders on that magically make it on par with the PS2, one of the biggest console success stories (if not biggest, we'll see how the Wii fares) in gaming history.

The fact that the internet was flooded with stories and pictures of stacks of PS3s collecting dust I can confirm this in my area as I did last minute shopping on Xmas Eve and was shocked to see PS3s available everywhere) on retail floors on Xmas eve of its launch is proof of that.

Dave Vaughn has said repeatedly that he's not an insider. He gets secondhand information from other insiders. That's a big difference.

I fear in this case it exposes him to be potentially used to push information that might not be factually true, or at least has quite the spin on it.

Getting sales figures is one thing. Those are facts. What types of negotiations may have happened on both sides around Warner Brothers is a dangerous grey area.

Also, I think it's obvious his inside sources are not from the Blu side. Hence, I'm skeptical of these figures and the idea that Fox who directly called out the Paramount payoff in the media was anywhere close to switching over.

Then you do not understand the concept of inside information. Again, show me something Dave said that was outlandish or wrong. You admit yourself he at least has a few contacts with reliable information, therefore it doesn't matter whether its first hand or not until he says something wrong.

And your argument is compelling, but the same can be said of any source. Discrediting or downplaying Dave as a viable source is ignorant based on his track record. Unlike Penton and Talk, he doesn't argue stupid technical points on BD that were proven wrong or true not in his favor and he doesn't spend most his time on Blu-Ray.com, the most absurd and immature website on the HDM front.

Oh, and believing anything any executive says on HDM in a press release or interview is silly at best. Did you expect Fox to say "Kudos, Paramount! Thank you for leaving our format of choice and weakening our stance". Of course they are going to discredit the move because it was a move against their business interests and chosen format.

Likewise, do you expect Warner or Fox to admit they took money or used HD DVD offers as leverage to get more from Sony?

A little business realism on this site would go a long way. I love how you are ultra-realistic in your questioning of Dave Vaughn's credibility (seriously, did you interview his second cousins to make sure he doesn't work for Toshiba?), yet you utterly ignore rudimentary business practices that have been around since the inception of bartering and try to come up with pie in the sky explanations to cover up something that has been reported on by numerous sources with credible backgrounds.

The problem is that said information does not follow any type of logical path with regards to Fox. What possible reason would they have to drop BD and go to HD-DVD? Direct payoff by Toshiba? Possibly. But, I think the Warner point fits all studios. They aren't going to take millions and risk their multi-billion dollar home media market.

Sure. Perhaps they used an offer as a negotiating point for something. But, I just can't see any rational line of thinking that supports a Fox move.

Since you acknowledge that DV is not an insider, his information is only as credible as the insider that he receives it from. This type of stuff has no way to be verified. In fact, you probably won't even see it printed in print media. The reason? They can be sued for libel.

Mike Dunn's quote on the Microsoft and HD-DVD "“the orchestrated campaigns of confusion and anti-consumerism fueled by an 800-pound gorilla that would prefer to force us all into the practice of paying tolls for the right to exchange information and enjoy entertainment.”"

Strong words for someone who'd take a payoff 6 months later, especially after saying that Paramount "(took) the bait".

This one doesn't pass the sniff test.


Then you do not understand the concept of inside information. Again, show me something Dave said that was outlandish or wrong. You admit yourself he at least has a few contacts with reliable information, therefore it doesn't matter whether its first hand or not until he says something wrong.

And your argument is compelling, but the same can be said of any source. Discrediting or downplaying Dave as a viable source is ignorant based on his track record. Unlike Penton and Talk, he doesn't argue stupid technical points on BD that were proven wrong or true not in his favor and he doesn't spend most his time on Blu-Ray.com, the most absurd and immature website on the HDM front.

Oh, and believing anything any executive says on HDM in a press release or interview is silly at best. Did you expect Fox to say "Kudos, Paramount! Thank you for leaving our format of choice and weakening our stance". Of course they are going to discredit the move because it was a move against their business interests and chosen format.

Likewise, do you expect Warner or Fox to admit they took money or used HD DVD offers as leverage to get more from Sony?

A little business realism on this site would go a long way. I love how you are ultra-realistic in your questioning of Dave Vaughn's credibility (seriously, did you interview his second cousins to make sure he doesn't work for Toshiba?), yet you utterly ignore rudimentary business practices that have been around since the inception of bartering and try to come up with pie in the sky explanations to cover up something that has been reported on by numerous sources with credible backgrounds.

The problem is that said information does not follow any type of logical path with regards to Fox. What possible reason would they have to drop BD and go to HD-DVD? Direct payoff by Toshiba? Possibly. But, I think the Warner point fits all studios. They aren't going to take millions and risk their multi-billion dollar home media market.

Sure. Perhaps they used an offer as a negotiating point for something. But, I just can't see any rational line of thinking that supports a Fox move.

Since you acknowledge that DV is not an insider, his information is only as credible as the insider that he receives it from. This type of stuff has no way to be verified. In fact, you probably won't even see it printed in print media. The reason? They can be sued for libel.

Mike Dunn's quote on the Microsoft and HD-DVD "“the orchestrated campaigns of confusion and anti-consumerism fueled by an 800-pound gorilla that would prefer to force us all into the practice of paying tolls for the right to exchange information and enjoy entertainment.”"

Strong words for someone who'd take a payoff 6 months later, especially after saying that Paramount "(took) the bait".

This one doesn't pass the sniff test.

I don't see what's so hard to hard to believe about a possible pay out offered to Fox. The line of reasoning is that Warner was offered numerous pay outs from Toshiba but always said they would only do it if BD exclusive studio would defect. Fox being in the mix for the latest round makes perfect sense. They have a back room meeting, get offered incentives to defect and join Warner with HD DVD exclusivity and they play coy, then turn around and tell Sony and/or the BDA what happened and they and Warner both get offered huge payouts from Sony.

Its called leverage. And the quote you offered doesn't really reflect anything at hand. Im presuming he is talking about Microsoft who wants digital distribution rights and control? Otherwise, it sounds like typical corporate fluff attacking the other side, especially considering this whole format war is about one side wanting more control over royalties from discs sold than the other, thus making his side just as guilty of what he accused MS and HD DVD of doing. He is defending his own position and format. It shocks me that you would use a press snippet of that nature as proof that Fox would never partake in a payout or defection, when you should be discrediting the numerous posts by Dave that all but flat out say both camps were throwing money around and Sony offered more.

And I never said anything about Dave's credentials or involvement other than going down your line of reasoning for the sake of argument. His track record speaks for himself, so splitting hairs about who he gets his info from is nonsense when he hasn't let anyone down yet.

Why would he lie? What does he have to gain? He even admits he is delighted by the long term ramifications this deal would have because it likely will end the HDM format war. All he did was report what he heard.

I'm not saying DV is lying. I'm saying his source could be lying or could definitely be spinning. DV is not an insider; he is not the source.

I have no doubt all the studios were offered cash by Toshiba. They were and are desperate. I don't think any offers were seriously considered by Fox. You don't blast those types of quotes and then take the money yourself as the president of 20th Century Fox.

Offering is one thing. Being on the verge of acceptance is another. That's what's been implied and that is complete spin to me.

Of course, Warner wants to make sure that all BR players are solid before making a move, as trading positions wouldn't really help their goal which is to get to one format. They'd be better off staying neutral, but not going HD-DVD exclusive in that case.

Come on, people. Follow some reason.




I don't see what's so hard to hard to believe about a possible pay out offered to Fox. The line of reasoning is that Warner was offered numerous pay outs from Toshiba but always said they would only do it if BD exclusive studio would defect. Fox being in the mix for the latest round makes perfect sense. They have a back room meeting, get offered incentives to defect and join Warner with HD DVD exclusivity and they play coy, then turn around and tell Sony and/or the BDA what happened and they and Warner both get offered huge payouts from Sony.

Its called leverage. And the quote you offered doesn't really reflect anything at hand. Im presuming he is talking about Microsoft who wants digital distribution rights and control? Otherwise, it sounds like typical corporate fluff attacking the other side, especially considering this whole format war is about one side wanting more control over royalties from discs sold than the other, thus making his side just as guilty of what he accused MS and HD DVD of doing. He is defending his own position and format. It shocks me that you would use a press snippet of that nature as proof that Fox would never partake in a payout or defection, when you should be discrediting the numerous posts by Dave that all but flat out say both camps were throwing money around and Sony offered more.

And I never said anything about Dave's credentials or involvement other than going down your line of reasoning for the sake of argument. His track record speaks for himself, so splitting hairs about who he gets his info from is nonsense when he hasn't let anyone down yet.

Why would he lie? What does he have to gain? He even admits he is delighted by the long term ramifications this deal would have because it likely will end the HDM format war. All he did was report what he heard.

I just don't see Fox even thinking about moving to the red side because of BD+, disc size and region coding. I believe these are all features that made them choose blu to begin with.

It doesn't matter now. No matter how the deal went down, it did and it is over now. Just live with the consequences.

Perhaps this has been covered in the many posts and threads, but isn't MGM co-owned by Fox and Sony. Wouldn't that have been a complication?

I just don't see Fox even thinking about moving to the red side because of BD+, disc size and region coding. I believe these are all features that made them choose blu to begin with.

It doesn't matter now. No matter how the deal went down, it did and it is over now. Just live with the consequences.

This is exactly right. Of all the studios Fox is historically the MOST concerned with DRM, anti-piracy, region-coding, etc. There is no way they would even consider a neutral stance.

Perhaps this has been covered in the many posts and threads, but isn't MGM co-owned by Fox and Sony. Wouldn't that have been a complication?

Not anymore...MGM is now actually private-equity backed from what I understand, but continues to have operational ties with Sony.

Gee, I would have thought Disney earned the reputation of being the most concerned about DRM.

This is exactly right. Of all the studios Fox is historically the MOST concerned with DRM, anti-piracy, region-coding, etc. There is no way they would even consider a neutral stance.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=e8477cc4-c820-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1

Paramount in HD DVD blow

By Matthew Garrahan and Mariko Sanchanta in Las Vegas

Published: January 8 2008 02:49 | Last updated: January 8 2008 02:49

Paramount is poised to drop its support of HD DVD after Warner Brothers’ recent backing of Sony’s Blu-ray technology, in a move that will sound the death knell of HD DVD and bring the home entertainment format war to a definitive end.

Paramount and DreamWorks Animation, which makes the Shrek films, came out in support of HD DVD last summer, joining General Electric’s Universal Studios as the main backers of the Toshiba format.

However, Paramount, which is owned by Viacom, is understood to have a clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp that would allow it to switch sides in the event of Warner Bros backing Blu-ray, according to people familiar with the situation.

Paramount is set to have a bumper 2008 with several likely blockbusters, including the latest instalment in the Indiana Jones franchise.

Paramount joining the Blu-ray camp would leave HD DVD likely to suffer the same fate as Sony’s now obsolete Betamax video technology, which lost out to VHS in a similar format war in the 1980s.

Warners decision last week to throw its weight behind Blu-ray saw it join Walt Disney, 20th Century Fox and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer as backers of the Sony format.

The Warners move gives Blu-ray about 70 per cent of Hollywood’s output, although the format’s grip on film content will increase further when Paramount comes aboard.

It is unclear whether DreamWorks Animation has the same get-out clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp.

However, Paramount and DreamWorks have a close relationship, with Paramount distributing DreamWorks Animation films. The two companies also signed their HD DVD contracts at the same time. Meanwhile, Universal has declined to comment on its next-generation DVD plans since the Warners move.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008

Here we go again :D

Why are folks still arguing with a delusional poster who thinks that early reporting of tangible facts that can be verified (sales figures) is the same as reporting on mental states of top level executives that is counter to all public record and logic? Battling delusion with common sense and reasoning isn't going to get you guys very far.

Brandon

Fascinating. I understand people getting all fanatic about their country or their religion or even their sports teams. But I am always amazed at people going fanatic over tech format, be it Apple vs. MS or Blu vs. HD-DVD. :confused:

No matter. I'm one of the hordes who've been waiting for a winner in this fight. My parents had a Betamax so there was no way I was going to buy discs until there was a winner.

Heck, I don't even own a standalone DVD player or more than a few SD DVD's (all gifts) since the coming of some HD format has been inevitable for a decade now. I've just relied on my HD monitor and my PC to watch my rented/borrowed DVD's until now. I'll only be buying movies once in my lifetime, thank you. :cool:

Actually an end to the format war with an increased customer base should lead to a nice drop in prices. Walmart will make sure that happens, no matter what the studios want. :rolleyes:

And all this nicely coincides with the final changeover to digital TV's.

If true by this next week will be saying hd dvd who?

yep

Hopefully, adults will regain this forum.

Hopefully, adults will regain this forum.

That's probably part of the PS3 trojanhorse effect.;):rolleyes:

Hopefully, adults will regain this forum.

Calling all cars, Calling all cars....rdjam, Gizmo, amir...red alert, red alert....save this thread !!!!!!!!

I wish the mods would let us know which of the "new joins" IP addresses correspond with an existing (or suspended) member's account....

I have a feeling a lot of regulars are hiding behind dummy accounts.

Then you do not understand the concept of inside information. Again, show me something Dave said that was outlandish or wrong. You admit yourself he at least has a few contacts with reliable information, therefore it doesn't matter whether its first hand or not until he says something wrong.

And your argument is compelling, but the same can be said of any source. Discrediting or downplaying Dave as a viable source is ignorant based on his track record. Unlike Penton and Talk, he doesn't argue stupid technical points on BD that were proven wrong or true not in his favor and he doesn't spend most his time on Blu-Ray.com, the most absurd and immature website on the HDM front.

Oh, and believing anything any executive says on HDM in a press release or interview is silly at best. Did you expect Fox to say "Kudos, Paramount! Thank you for leaving our format of choice and weakening our stance". Of course they are going to discredit the move because it was a move against their business interests and chosen format.

Likewise, do you expect Warner or Fox to admit they took money or used HD DVD offers as leverage to get more from Sony?

A little business realism on this site would go a long way. I love how you are ultra-realistic in your questioning of Dave Vaughn's credibility (seriously, did you interview his second cousins to make sure he doesn't work for Toshiba?), yet you utterly ignore rudimentary business practices that have been around since the inception of bartering and try to come up with pie in the sky explanations to cover up something that has been reported on by numerous sources with credible backgrounds.


Lol, Blu-ray.com absurd and immature??? Wow attacking another site huh? Still bitter over me pointing out that Blu insiders have a better track record than red insiders? Relax and calm down. You'll get over it.

I wish the mods would let us know which of the "new joins" IP addresses correspond with an existing (or suspended) member's account....

I have a feeling a lot of regulars are hiding behind dummy accounts.

OK, OK...I give up...you have me all figured out...you are too smart for your own good...I admit it...I am actually Amir aka cmvolt...I am actually an employee of Microsoft and a paid insider ( thank you AVS$$$$$$) If you haven't figured out the clues ( micro? soft? nuff said :()....disregard all statements and my insecurities toward all SONY formats for my personal shortcomings (literally...vista rules !!!!) ....please ban me.....sniffle...sniffle...tear

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aQMGgh2LV_bU

this is getting pathetic....

and you lost...lol...

How did I lose? :confused:

God, now AVS is getting spill over from Blu-Ray.com.
And, where did you come from? You seem to have gotten up to speed quickly for a guy that just registered.

there you go...pure logical weakness. trying to prove a negative. the only evidence about a payoff lies in the comments of CEO. there is nothing to dispute that. implications and assumptions /= proof or reality. until the financials are released, you're better off speculating elsewhere.

look--stop acting like children on this. the world will be here tomorrow, and the next day, and many generations to come. Maybe go fishing, take a hike, play catch with the kids....the end of this war will not make your life any crappier, I promise.

WTF are you babbling about?

What in the world is everyone blabbing about? So far, if you take a look at the facts, there was no payoff of Warner by the BDA to go neutral. Does it matter if there was? If anything, we know that HD-DVD offered Warner money already during the whole Paramount saga and they refused it. I was under the belief that HD=DVD offered Warner something this time and Sony simply had to match it, however this claim was denied as a false rumor by top execs.

WHo is left arguing that HD-DVD still has a chance? I haven't gone back far, however there is one thing that is ceratin. All if not most of the HD-DVD fanboys that posted daily on this thread have since vanished and not one of the people on the top tier 0 list for HD-DVD supporters has shown up to cheerlead for HD-DVD anymore.. That is more telling than anything since I do believe some of those HD-DVD fanatics where paid to be here and perhaps their contracts expired.. I wouldn't be surprised in the least as there were probably paid Blu-ray supporters as well..

time