FWIW:

Toshiba says HD DVD has not lost out to Blu-ray

Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:03am EST
By Franklin Paul and Mayumi Negishi

LAS VEGAS (Reuters) - Toshiba Corp said on Sunday its HD DVD high-definition video format is not dead despite being dealt a big setback by Warner Bros studio's decision to exclusively back Sony Corp's rival Blu-ray technology.

Akiyo Ozaka, president of Toshiba America Consumer Products, told a briefing at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas that HD DVD "has not lost."

Ozaka declined to comment on Toshiba's next steps, which he said Toshiba's HD DVD partners would have to discuss, after Time Warner Inc's Warner Bros, one of the world's largest film studios, said it would back Blu-ray, an optical disk format for storing high-definition video.

Toshiba's remarks were the latest salvo in a long-running battle over which format will dominate the next generation of technology for delivering high-definition movies to consumers.

The winner is expected to inherit a multibillion-dollar industry, although consumers so far have been confused by the standards war. Some analysts say they have also failed to see the attraction of high-definition.

Toshiba, the main backer of the HD DVD format, defended the technology on Sunday after the HD DVD consortium, a group of companies of which it is a part, cancelled plans to hold its own press conference at the Las Vegas trade show, the industry's largest U.S. gathering.

"We were very disappointed with Warner Brothers' announcement," Ozaka said. "Sales of HD DVD were very good last year, especially in October to December."

That was in contrast to the mood among Blu-ray technology promoters, who held their own reception at CES and congratulated themselves on the Warner decision.

The rivalry has been compared to the video-cassette-recorder format war of the late 1970s and early 1980s which ultimately Sony's Betamax lost and JVC's VHS won.

"To have one of the studios in its fold defect to the Blu-ray camp is a difficult challenge to overcome," said Ross Rubin, director of consumer technology analysis at NPD Group, adding that "studio support is really critical to the format".

Ozaka said North American sales of HD DVD players, including movie drives in Microsoft's Xbox 360, totaled 1 million in the last year helped by downloads of high-definition video onto personal computers equipped with the technology.

The technology debuted broadly in the United States in 2006 but has not become a big hit with consumers yet.

Toshiba marketing executive Jodi Sally told the audience HD DVD remained the best technology, but acknowledged the Warner Bros announcement on Friday took her by surprise.

"It's difficult for me to believe when all the pundits declare that HD DVD is dead," Sally said. "Clearly, the events of the last few days have led many of you to that conclusion. We have been declared dead before. The reality is we ended 2007 with a majority of the year-to-date market share."

© Reuters 2007.


Link to article: Toshiba says HD DVD has not lost out to Blu-ray (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0734149020080107)

FWIW:

the game is BACK ON!!! :p

I feel sorry for that spokeman.... Hard to spin this type of news. Warner is the largest of studios....and have a lot of weight.

Then again.....What else can the guy say?

the game is BACK ON!!!
No, no its not :P

CES for them has been so quiet, the majority of Toshiba's keynote was about televisions and they didn't take Q&A after. Other than samsung, no other company so far has mentioned HD-DVD at all. That combined with the majority of the media proclaiming its death and its going to be pretty hard to come back from all the bad PR.
Its like watching Baghdad Bob all over again :P

I think it's very telling that the HD DVD Consortium decided to cancel a major press conference at CES this year.

Of course eveyone would really want to hear what Toshiba has up their sleeves. Cancelling means, aparently nothing. Which to me means all this talk of not being dead yet is marketing speak.

Lol

"It's difficult for me to believe when all the pundits declare that HD DVD is dead," Sally said. "Clearly, the events of the last few days have led many of you to that conclusion. We have been declared dead before. The reality is we ended 2007 with a majority of the year-to-date market share."

What a disingenuous statement for Sally to make. There is no doubt that Blu-ray had the majority of software sales in 2007. Additionally, I may be mistaken, but I'm sure that more Blu-ray capable hardware was sold in 2007.

I guess things have gotten so bad for Toshiba and hd dvd that they now have to resort to flat out lying. The end is truly near.

Does anyone have Dr. Kavorkian's phone number?

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-time-1-1-recent144.jpg

I feel sorry for that spokeman.... Hard to spin this type of news. Warner is the largest of studios....and have a lot of weight.

Then again.....What else can the guy say?

yea but Warner IS NOT THE BIGGEST STUDIO, the Largest is movie studio with the biggest catalog is Universal which is still with HD-DVD, until then there is gonna always be a format war, unless Univeral ends it

What really makes me scratch my head in this article is the author is saying Toshiba counted the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 in that 1 million sold figure. It is very disingenuous to not include then the 2.5 million+ PS3's sold in addition to the 1 million stand-alone players using their own figures again.

Blu-ray has 3.5 million players and 60% of media sold and people still think Universal and Paramount will not be switching sides and HD-DVD has any leg to stand on in a fight?

We were very disappointed with Warner Brothers' announcement," Ozaka said. "Sales of HD DVD were very good last year, especially in October to December."

funny they didn't mention blu ray sales were better though, especially from October to December.

funny they didn't mention blu ray sales were better though, especially from October to December.

Who needs reality?

This may have been Toshiba's last chance to salvage something from this as far as reassuring thier customers. People waited with baited breath from Friday until thier press conference on Sunday, and Toshiba didn't offer even a bread crumb of hope to thier supporters. Toshiba should have had some plan, no matter how plausible, to offer at that point and try and turn the press around. Even a simple "We will present our new plan of attack on insert date here." Now they are looking at a run away train scenario, and I'm not sure that they can slow it down if they don't get a press conference together immediately.

Then again, the BDA has thier press conference tonight at 5pm and maybe Toshiba knows something we don't.

This may have been Toshiba's last chance to salvage something from this as far as reassuring thier customers. People waited with baited breath from Friday until thier press conference on Sunday, and Toshiba didn't offer even a bread crumb of hope to thier supporters. Toshiba should have had some plan, no matter how plausible, to offer at that point and try and turn the press around. Even a simple "We will present our new plan of attack on insert date here." Now they are looking at a run away train scenario, and I'm not sure that they can slow it down if they don't get a press conference together immediately.

Then again, the BDA has thier press conference tonight at 5pm and maybe Toshiba knows something we don't.

Dude, Warner was already HD DVD, everything was planned. What do you expect them to do in 2 days when this type of flip happened. You can't plan on this. Nobody knew which way Warner would go. Obviously HD DVD Group had them in the camp and prepared the festivities when things changed mostly in the matter of hours. I personally think that Fox going HD DVD deal was leaked to Sony, Sony jumped in and offered whatever they could to make the flip.

There's more dirty things going on here then we know and I 'm pretty sure that ex-Warner high executive becoming a high Sony executive had something to do with it too.

That is very disappointing. They had a window of opportunity to bow our gracefully and even pin some of the blame on Warner so their consumers wouldn't be as angry with Toshiba. But now it seems like MSFT has managed to convince them to drag this out even longer and alienate even more of a buying public. Nice move.

There's a huge contrast seeing how Warner handled things and how Toshiba and Paramount have.

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-time-1-1-recent144.jpg

Yep, and the message is clear: BOGO's DO WELL! You seriously expect BD sales to continue at this rate when each "Potter" BD costs $19.95 instead of half that via BOGOS? :rolleyes:

Look at the bright side for hd dvd guys, least they didn't make the kinda deal that screwed blu ray owners like Paramount did. Ex. canceling and pulling all preordered and on shelf movies.

funny they didn't mention blu ray sales were better though, especially from October to December.

can you back up that they were ?

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.
Absolutely clueless - you have no idea of where Toshiba's revenue stream comes from...............clue for ya - Sony is more likely to go belly up eating PS3 costs than Toshiba is from any money they've spent on HD-DVD.

(both are extremely unlikely)

For now, HD DVD has 2 big studios exclusively in their camp. Until that changes, it is not over. Things are heavily stacked in Blu's favor, but I have no idea what surprises will pop up next. I like Blu better.

I'm still waiting for my 5 free HD DVDs and Star Trek phaser. I hope HD DVD stays alive long enough so that I can receive my freebies.

Absolutely clueless - you have no idea of where Toshiba's revenue stream comes from...............clue for ya - Sony is more likely to go belly up eating PS3 costs than Toshiba is from any money they've spent on HD-DVD.

(both are extremely unlikely)

you realize that even though its a huge company that their electronic division has nothing to do with their other divisions right?? Just like even Mitsubishi is a huge company their auto division is on the verge of bankruptcy. Toshiba threw in hundreds of millions of dollars in this gamble, right now its a lost cause and any smart person would know to back out.

Dude, Warner was already HD DVD, everything was planned. What do you expect them to do in 2 days when this type of flip happened. You can't plan on this. Nobody knew which way Warner would go. Obviously HD DVD Group had them in the camp and prepared the festivities when things changed mostly in the matter of hours. I personally think that Fox going HD DVD deal was leaked to Sony, Sony jumped in and offered whatever they could to make the flip.

There's more dirty things going on here then we know and I 'm pretty sure that ex-Warner high executive becoming a high Sony executive had something to do with it too.

+1

What else can they say now, it was like a kick in the nuts, is all over but the shouting an they know this, BUT, they also understand it could've very easily have gone the other way as well...you can post all the sales charts you'd like, Warners prior actions proved they were more than willing to side exclusively with HD DVD - they were lured away in the end by whatever you'd like to think, but they WERE lured away from the format they clearly had been favoring.

For now, HD DVD has 2 big studios exclusively in their camp. Until that changes, it is not over.

Yes, this must be remembered.

If things are the same as they are now when Beowulf arrives, it's a choice of buying either the HD DVD, the SD DVD, or not at all.

HD DVD can go quietly or they can make things very messy, protracted and drawn out for BD.

Warner went BD exclusive because that's exactly what they didn't want.

Steve W

Very amusing....but he's paid to do damage control. DId anyone expect him to say.."We give up" ???

you realize that even though its a huge company that their electronic division has nothing to do with their other divisions right?? Just like even Mitsubishi is a huge company their auto division is on the verge of bankruptcy. Toshiba threw in hundreds of millions of dollars in this gamble, right now its a lost cause and any smart person would know to back out.

Maybe 'smart' means something different in the US to the UK.

The 'smart' thing to do for Toshiba would be to makeas much money from HD DVD as it can, while it still can.

If they just throw their hands up and shout "WE SURRENDER!" they'll not get a penny more.

Toshiba don't have to spend another dollar investing in HD DVD. Prolonging the battle doesn't have to cost them anything.

Steve W

At least there was only one manufacturer on the HD side. It will make it somewhat easier when they have to pull the plug vs. having a mass of other vendors who were building machines etc and they all had to fold up their tents.

HD DVD can go quietly or they can make things very messy, protracted and drawn out for BD.


Steve W


And that is probably what they are going to do. I get the feeling their mentality is that if they can't win, nobody else will. However, I think most of the big retail outlets will soon get bored with their nonsense and just eventually pull all their support for HD DVD and not even stock their products. HD DVD will more than likely take the lead in sales — on Ebay.

You know things are pretty bleak; when it takes you 3 days to come up with "We're not dead yet"

Just like Iraq, the losing side can continue to be a complete pain in the arse if you're not careful.


It says a lot about the state of HD-DVD camp when their supporters begin to (favorably) liken them to the Iraqi insurgents...

Perhaps Toshiba operatives can lay out some roadside IEDs on the path between the Warner camp's hotel and CES?

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-time-1-1-recent144.jpg

Ok have any one making these type of silly and just plain old ignorant statements ACTUALLY looked at Toshiba's Finanicails????

Anyone at all?

No?

Lets start by,

Toshiba in the 3 years of HDDVD. Has posted ZERO losses on ANY of thier division. NONE. More than I can say for sony. THis inclundes the CE division which is where the HDDVD is situated in.

Toshiba laid down 8 BILLION dollars a year and a half ago for U.K Westinghouse Nuclear outfit. They have recently accepted 9 jobs to build up around nine nuclear reactors in China alone. France and Germany are in negotiations as we speak.

Toshiba bankrupt? Not in this life time.

And that is probably what they are going to do. I get the feeling their mentality is that if they can't win, nobody else will. However, I think most of the big retail outlets will soon get bored with their nonsense and just eventually pull all their support for HD DVD and not even stock their products. HD DVD will more than likely take the lead in sales — on Ebay.

Toshiba would be better off building Blu-ray players than making sure Blu-ray fails. They will make more money in keeping content on disks than having it downloadable.

I don't see them dragging this on out of spite, smart businesses don't do that and Toshiba is a smart business.

can you back up that they were ?

are you serious?

HD Standalone marketshare was 53% in October and 49% in December - BD went from 44% to 48%. This shows that BD sold more standalones in that time period.

This doesn't even count the PS3 sales.

Do we really need to discuss software sales? BD won every week of 2007 with a YTD average of 65:35.

Toshiba would be better off building Blu-ray players than making sure Blu-ray fails. They will make more money in keeping content on disks than having it downloadable.

I don't see them dragging this on out of spite, smart businesses don't do that and Toshiba is a smart business.

out of spite no, but if it is profitable. Why exactly should they take thier ball and go home when they are not losing one dime on this and actually are making money?????

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-time-1-1-recent144.jpgSo much for using graphs to prove a point...:rolleyes:

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-1-1-All.jpg

Warner went br exclusive because they want to end the format war as quicly as possible. Not because they like br so much or some bribe.

Warner realized that HDM was stalling into a niche market.

The graph doesn't show a rise in the blu line yet.
The red line dropped because of a knee jerk reaction.
If it becomes clear that Universal and Paramont stick to their guns and even up the effort. HD DVD sales can stabilize anywhere between 20..40% depending on blockbuster releases this year once the initial shock is over (Warners timing had a purpose too!). That is still a considerable market share within a billion dollar market.

Key will be what Paramount and Universal will be doing. Consider that by going blu ray their market share in HVM is still somewhere between 20..40%.

If they stick to their guns and Toshiba keeps selling low priced players consumer confidence might return.

But I don't have high hopes for this to happen.

It also depends on how agressive Warner will be in the DVD Forum.
BDA members are now in a very strong position to sabotage HD DVD from within...

the level of HD DVD denial in this thread is truly astounding. Consumer confidence in HD DVD just got flushed down the toilet Friday. People are ditching their HD DVD players/movies left and right. Have you seen HD DVD sales on Amazon (the holy grail of HD DVD sales)?

It is just a matter of time for the Best Buys, Walmarts, Circuit City and Fry's to start dumping HD DVD from their shelves. When that happens, it is pretty difficult to sell your product when it isn't on the store shelves (or the one shelf of HD DVD titles is on the bottom shelf at the back of the store)...

The media is swarming like buzzards over the death of HD DVD and people are reading about it. The business section of the Dallas Morning News had story about how WB picked blu ray over HD DVD as well as the story appearing on CNN, Yahoo, Reuters, USA Today, etc...

Toshiba would be better off building Blu-ray players than making sure Blu-ray fails. They will make more money in keeping content on disks than having it downloadable.

I don't see them dragging this on out of spite, smart businesses don't do that and Toshiba is a smart business.

It really doesn't matter what Toshiba does. Its what Universal does that is important. If they switch or go neutral its 'Game Over'. Paramount will have to switch if they want any HDM sales.

Keep that nonsense out please.

This whole HD dvd hasn't lost out isn't none less?? I really hope your job isn't in financial markets because I have few funds to sell you.

This whole HD dvd hasn't lost out isn't none less?? I really hope your job isn't in financial markets because I have few funds to sell you.

Not that part, the political part.

the level of HD DVD denial in this thread is truly astounding. Consumer confidence in HD DVD just got flushed down the toilet Friday. People are ditching their HD DVD players/movies left and right. Have you seen HD DVD sales on Amazon (the holy grail of HD DVD sales)?

It is just a matter of time for the Best Buys, Walmarts, Circuit City and Fry's to start dumping HD DVD from their shelves. When that happens, it is pretty difficult to sell your product when it isn't on the store shelves (or the one shelf of HD DVD titles is on the bottom shelf at the back of the store)...

The media is swarming like buzzards over the death of HD DVD and people are reading about it. The business section of the Dallas Morning News had story about how WB picked blu ray over HD DVD as well as the story appearing on CNN, Yahoo, Reuters, USA Today, etc...

Media?

have to go offtopic on this one?



You mean the same media that sensationalizes the Iraq war, Global warming, or some other death catastrophe on a daily basis? That media?



I forgot that in mp3 players only the IPOD exist.
I Forgot in the computer world on DELL exist.
I forgot in the CE world only Sony exist.

get the hint?

This news is hard to spin. Toshiba has been dealt a potentially fatal blow by Warner. But at least Warner was nice about it. They gave hddvd another 4 months and gave them a mourning period. Paramount, on the other, all of a sudden pulled out and left everyone blu!

This thread is getting very strange...

Cancelling means, aparently nothing. Which to me means all this talk of not being dead yet is marketing speak.Right. While I think most of us will agree that this is it for HD DVD, I'm sure the camp is still deciding what its next move will be, and until then, they're going to put on as big a happy face as they can.

This thread is getting very strange...

Not really, not for this place lately...its right on par actually...however, if it gets any nuttier, the mods will pounce. :)

Reading the online stories about Warners intent to pull Fox to HD DVD just 1 week before this announcement tells me it was a toss up decision really.

Had Warner sided with HD DVD, I would expect the BDA would be talking just like HD DVD is now.

I do see this Warner announcement as the end of the format war. I now expect retailers to soon drop HD DVD and use the same rhetoric that "consumers have spoken" ... cause I don't want to see a recount and the supreme court get involved.

the level of HD DVD denial in this thread is truly astounding. Consumer confidence in HD DVD just got flushed down the toilet Friday. People are ditching their HD DVD players/movies left and right. Have you seen HD DVD sales on Amazon (the holy grail of HD DVD sales)?

It is just a matter of time for the Best Buys, Walmarts, Circuit City and Fry's to start dumping HD DVD from their shelves. When that happens, it is pretty difficult to sell your product when it isn't on the store shelves (or the one shelf of HD DVD titles is on the bottom shelf at the back of the store)...

The media is swarming like buzzards over the death of HD DVD and people are reading about it. The business section of the Dallas Morning News had story about how WB picked blu ray over HD DVD as well as the story appearing on CNN, Yahoo, Reuters, USA Today, etc...

There is no denial here. You can't deny there is a fair chance that the format war isn't over as quick as some want us to believe.

In a week or so media start to report that HD DVD is not so dead after all. They like a fight to be able to fill their space.

Looking at a bigger picture. In the sticking guns scenario people still see lower price hardware and 30..40% of shelf space dedicated to Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks releases.

At all depends on Universal/Paramount/Dreamworks/Toshiba how far will they go? If it's all the way than blu ray is in deep trouble too.

yea but Warner IS NOT THE BIGGEST STUDIO, the Largest is movie studio with the biggest catalog is Universal which is still with HD-DVD, until then there is gonna always be a format war, unless Univeral ends it

Many of Universal's films are from the silent era. If you look at films from 1940 to date...they are nowhere near the biggest studio. WB is by far the biggest fish in the HD pond.

I think Paramount/Dreamworks and Universal account for about 25%-30% of the potential HD market. Still big enough to make real movie lovers buy into both formats, but I don't think it is big enough to lead HD DVD to mass consumer adoption at this point.

the level of HD DVD denial in this thread is truly astounding. Consumer confidence in HD DVD just got flushed down the toilet Friday. People are ditching their HD DVD players/movies left and right. Have you seen HD DVD sales on Amazon (the holy grail of HD DVD sales)?

It is just a matter of time for the Best Buys, Walmarts, Circuit City and Fry's to start dumping HD DVD from their shelves. When that happens, it is pretty difficult to sell your product when it isn't on the store shelves (or the one shelf of HD DVD titles is on the bottom shelf at the back of the store)...

The media is swarming like buzzards over the death of HD DVD and people are reading about it. The business section of the Dallas Morning News had story about how WB picked blu ray over HD DVD as well as the story appearing on CNN, Yahoo, Reuters, USA Today, etc...

Okay, so don't post in a thread with absolutely irrelevant and off-topic opinion. ummm k?

Go and enjoy Blu-Ray and watch whatever you think will happen, happen. And have some decency to show respect to other members since obviously this is something that most blu-ray fans lack.

Reading the online stories about Warners intent to pull Fox to HD DVD just 1 week before this announcement tells me it was a toss up decision really.

Had Warner sided with HD DVD, I would expect the BDA would be talking just like HD DVD is now.

I do see this Warner announcement as the end of the format war. I now expect retailers to soon drop HD DVD and use the same rhetoric that "consumers have spoken" ... cause I don't want to see a recount and the supreme court get involved.

Well retailers really don't have a lot of say in this. They are paid to stock items anyways. Most of them rent shelf space. So if studios want to sell movies, they'll keep paying the retailers to do so. If you think that retailers will drop Toshiba or suddenly discard HD DVD titles, you are in for a surprise.

HD DVD is not going anywhere this year and the only difference will be noticable, possibly starting Q3 2008 when Warner titles stop being published on HD DVD. I think most Blu-Ray fans need to accept this fact.

I think its probably a wise decision to bow out, Toshiba is gonna go bankrupt trying to keep hd dvd on life support.. Consumers are speaking with their wallets.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-time-1-1-recent144.jpg

Did you make this chart with Microsoft Paint or something?

Whatever.... :D

and why exactly would they give up? :rolleyes:...HD DVD has 2 MAJOR studios on their side...that's 2 not 1...before they only had one exclusive studio in Universal, meaning that only UNI movies were missing from the Blu side, now there's 2 and that spells many favorible movies won't be on Blu ray...in music they have many formats and many artists for different tastes, same for video game consoles and games...get real...retailers are not going to stop selling HD DVD's with a million out there and counting...they won't stop selling the PS3 games even though their game division is lame...as long as HD DVD has Microsoft and Toshiba willing with 2 major studios we'll have 2 formats...like it, or not.

GO HD DVD!

Media?

have to go offtopic on this one?



You mean the same media that sensationalizes the Iraq war, Global warming, or some other death catastrophe on a daily basis? That media?



I forgot that in mp3 players only the IPOD exist.
I Forgot in the computer world on DELL exist.
I forgot in the CE world only Sony exist.

get the hint?

and you totally glossed over my other points to just focus on this? :confused:

Did you make this chart with Microsoft Paint or something?

Whatever.... :D

wow...just wow....how desperate do you have to be to photoshop an amazon sales chart to show that HD DVD is winning?

are you serious?

HD Standalone marketshare was 53% in October and 49% in December - BD went from 44% to 48%. This shows that BD sold more standalones in that time period.

This doesn't even count the PS3 sales.

Do we really need to discuss software sales? BD won every week of 2007 with a YTD average of 65:35.

the median may have been 65:35, but there is no way you can tell what the average is from the limited amount of information that is made public. you would need the volume of discs sold every week to determine an average.

and you totally glossed over my other points to just focus on this? :confused:


Don't need to, they are purely speculative. Just like Fox movies on BR, I will believe it when i see it.

This whole HD dvd hasn't lost out isn't none less?? I really hope your job isn't in financial markets because I have few funds to sell you.

Aren't you the one that said Toshiba is going to go bankrupt??? Seriously, you I am pretty neutral but HD DVD is not going to be the thing that puts Toshiba bankrupt. It doesn't take a financial wizzard to figure that out.

lest....

"Perhaps Toshiba operatives can lay out some roadside IEDs"

You think maybe you could try to use a different idea? Some of us have lost family or friends to those IED's and probably don't need to see this on any forum about dvd's.

Reading the online stories about Warners intent to pull Fox to HD DVD just 1 week before this announcement tells me it was a toss up decision really.

Had Warner sided with HD DVD, I would expect the BDA would be talking just like HD DVD is now.

I do see this Warner announcement as the end of the format war. I now expect retailers to soon drop HD DVD and use the same rhetoric that "consumers have spoken" ... cause I don't want to see a recount and the supreme court get involved.

The difference being... Warner going exclusive to HDDVD, would not be a deathblow to blu ray. BD still has a 2:1 sales rate and a much larger base of installed players. (almost 4 million US and 9.5 world wide).

HDDVD has been in a precarious situation for a long time. That $150 million dollars to paramount and the $100 HDDVD extravaganza gave them a couple months of life, but it never turned the tide. The sales ratio remained the same.

Warner leaving HDDVD, is fatal blow to HDDVD.

and why exactly would they give up? :rolleyes:...HD DVD has 2 MAJOR studios on their side...that's 2 not 1...before they only had one exclusive studio in Universal, meaning that only UNI movies were missing from the Blu side, now there's 2 and that spells many favorible movies won't be on Blu ray...in music they have many formats and many artists for different tastes, same for video game consoles and games...get real...retailers are not going to stop selling HD DVD's with a million out there and counting...they won't stop selling the PS3 games even though their game division is lame...as long as HD DVD has Microsoft and Toshiba willing with 2 major studios we'll have 2 formats...like it, or not.

GO HD DVD!

They won't give up...but you're missing the point that HD DVD will be losing a lot of content moving forward. WB is the biggest studio for HD media. Universal and Paramount are great to have on your side, but HD DVD will need more content.

Retailers would be stupid to drop HD DVD titles from their shelves, but I wouldn't be surprised if they stop carrying the players sometime this year.

Microsoft is there for VC1 and HDi which can be used for each format. They are not HD DVD and do not have a major stake in the format.

are you serious?

HD Standalone marketshare was 53% in October and 49% in December - BD went from 44% to 48%. This shows that BD sold more standalones in that time period.

This doesn't even count the PS3 sales.

Do we really need to discuss software sales? BD won every week of 2007 with a YTD average of 65:35.

I would love to see a source for your info. The only artcle I have seen said HD DVD increased its lead to 61:38 (1% dual format). That was in mid-December.

It all really does matter though, but sales had NOTHING to do with this decision. Sony wrote the bigger check (and there is nothing wrong with that -Toshiba did it too), and now Blu-ray is going to win.

the median may have been 65:35, but there is no way you can tell what the average is from the limited amount of information that is made public. you would need the volume of discs sold every week to determine an average.

so you still think that after averaging this out using sales volumes that HD DVD will beat blu ray???

dave v said that two weeks of Dec were the largest volume wise and BD won those 61:39...

HD DVD got beat in hardware and software sales...there is no way to spin that. Period.

AD,

"It really doesn't matter what Toshiba does. Its what Universal does that is important."

That is correct. You could fill in "Universal" with any of the studio names. The war is not going to generally be decided by hardware. At one level of course hardware is important in the format war, has to work, reasonably priced, etc. But "war" will be decided by what movie titles are available in a particular format and what they cost. IF bluray's cost 50 dollars a piece, the war is not won. Folks will stick with SD-DVD's and not go to bluray's even if they are the only hd dvd available.

So all this stuff about what Toshiba does or does not need to do, which format is technially better, etc., how many players have been sold, while interesting is not really relevant to settling the "war".

The software is the key. Ask Bill Gates.

Jim

You think maybe you could try to use a different idea? Some of us have lost family or friends to those IED's and probably don't need to see this on any forum about dvd's.

have to agreed with this statement!!

... and some may have thought it was a challenge to get up and go to their job this Monday morning!

What really makes me scratch my head in this article is the author is saying Toshiba counted the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 in that 1 million sold figure. It is very disingenuous to not include then the 2.5 million+ PS3's sold in addition to the 1 million stand-alone players using their own figures again.

Blu-ray has 3.5 million players and 60% of media sold and people still think Universal and Paramount will not be switching sides and HD-DVD has any leg to stand on in a fight?Sorry but 100% HD DVD add ons for the 360 are used for HD DVD movies the same cannot be said for BD on the PS3.

I would love to see a source for your info. The only artcle I have seen said HD DVD increased its lead to 61:38 (1% dual format). That was in mid-December.

It all really does matter though, but sales had NOTHING to do with this decision. Sony wrote the bigger check (and there is nothing wrong with that -Toshiba did it too), and now Blu-ray is going to win.

Oct 2007 - HD DVD - 53% (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6488493.html?industryid=47213)

Dec 2007 - HD DVD - 49% (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showpost.php?p=603118&postcount=1)

They won't give up...but you're missing the point that HD DVD will be losing a lot of content moving forward. WB is the biggest studio for HD media. Universal and Paramount are great to have on your side, but HD DVD will need more content.

Retailers would be stupid to drop HD DVD titles from their shelves, but I wouldn't be surprised if they stop carrying the players sometime this year.

Microsoft is there for VC1 and HDi which can be used for each format. They are not HD DVD and do not have a major stake in the format.

Toshiba just annouced that there are 1 million HD DVD players (including the 360 add-on). The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player. Warner is still making HD DVDs for the next 5 months. Retailers who are not paid-off will continue to sell HD DVD.

The difference being... Warner going exclusive to HDDVD, would not be a deathblow to blu ray. BD still has a 2:1 sales rate and a much larger base of installed players. (almost 4 million US and 9.5 world wide).

HDDVD has been in a precarious situation for a long time. That $150 million dollars to paramount and the $100 HDDVD extravaganza gave them a couple months of life, but it never turned the tide. The sales ratio remained the same.

Warner leaving HDDVD, is fatal blow to HDDVD.with such a small market share for both competitors I dont see how either could be in a precarious postion unless they just decide its not worth the effort.

lest....

"Perhaps Toshiba operatives can lay out some roadside IEDs"

You think maybe you could try to use a different idea? Some of us have lost family or friends to those IED's and probably don't need to see this on any forum about dvd's.

Sorry about the joke, it was in poor taste. However, it's still far less offensive/ridiculous than comparing the HD-DVD camp favorably to Iraqi insurgents.

Well retailers really don't have a lot of say in this. They are paid to stock items anyways. Most of them rent shelf space. So if studios want to sell movies, they'll keep paying the retailers to do so. If you think that retailers will drop Toshiba or suddenly discard HD DVD titles, you are in for a surprise.

It's true that retailers get incentives for endcaps and advertising, but it's a symbiotic relationship. They won't waste their floor space for long on an item that doesn't sell, regardless of the marketing dollars.

Besides that, so far HD DVD has been abysmal in their in-store marketing compared to Blu-ray. Hard to imagine that now they will step up and do a better job.

It might just be too soon, but I find the lack of any soothing HD DVD words whatsoever from Paramount or Universal to be very telling.

You know things are pretty bleak; when it takes you 3 days to come up with "We're not dead yet"
http://thumb.swagster.com/thumb/2008010708411231354swag_image.jpg (http://swagster.com/image_full.php?id=MjAwODAxMDcwODQxMTIzMTM1NHN3YWdfaW1hZ2Uuan Bn&user=&image_title=aW1ub3RkZWFk&swag_id=183&image_id=31354)

The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.

[a man puts a body on the cart]

Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.

The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.

Toshiba: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: What?

Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.

Toshiba: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.

Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.

Toshiba: I'm not.

The Dead Collector: He isn't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.

Toshiba: I'm getting better.

Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.

Toshiba: I don't want to go to 2008 CES.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.

The Dead Collector: I can't take him.

Toshiba: I feel fine.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.

The Dead Collector: I can't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of
minutes? He won't be long.

Oct 2007 - HD DVD - 53% (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6488493.html?industryid=47213)

Dec 2007 - HD DVD - 49% (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showpost.php?p=603118&postcount=1)

Does LG make a Blu-ray only players? Why did you include them in the Blu-ray totals only. What about Samsung? Don't they make a dual player?

Also, that is YTD. You left out 8 months of last year when HD DVD dominated.

are you serious?

HD Standalone marketshare was 53% in October and 49% in December - BD went from 44% to 48%. This shows that BD sold more standalones in that time period.

This doesn't even count the PS3 sales.

Do we really need to discuss software sales? BD won every week of 2007 with a YTD average of 65:35.

this shows that according to whatever stats (probably npd) you are using, the bda put more blu-ray players in consumers' hands in november and december than toshiba put hd dvd players in consumers' hands.

i make the distinction put versus sold because i know that a certain percentage of blu-ray players (and a few hd dvd players, too) were literally given away as a freebie from best buy, vanns, etc. with the purchase of a new hdtv. i guess these count as sales, but...

i find it hard to believe, though that: hd dvd sold ~100,000 players in a few days in early november; the week before thanksgiving sales were approximately 5,000 for hd dvd and 6,000 for blu-ray; thanksgiving week sales were 30,000 hd dvd and 20,000 blu-ray; and then suddenly blu-ray outsells hd dvd by over 100,000 in december?

if they moved them with televisions i would be a little less skeptical, although i'm sure the $300 hd-a3 and $300 blu-ray profile 1.0 players on sale at best buy (even though amazon was selling the hd-a3 for around $200 with blu-ray players starting at about $300) may have slanted things toward blu-ray, too. blu-ray probably sells better at equal price points (especially when the hd-a3 is 1080i) -- i believe best buy's regular price for the hd-a30 is $400. for the average consumer, a 1080p player is a 1080p player (the blu-ray 1.0 player would have looked like it was $100 less than the hd-a30).

Sorry but 100% HD DVD add ons for the 360 are used for HD DVD movies the same cannot be said for BD on the PS3.

then why does Toshiba count the PS3 in determining that it has a superior attach rate? if you excluded the PS3 from this calculation (since 100% of PS3's are not used for BD playback), who would have a better attach rate (hint: over 4M disks divided by 400K or over 2.5M disks divided by 750K - disclaimer: not sure what the most current numbers are now) ?

thank god this war is coming to an end so this 'chicken and the egg' discussions will come to an end...

tql...

I think this is true.

Warner leaving HDDVD, is fatal blow to HDDVD""

However I do not agree witih this.

"Warner going exclusive to HDDVD, would not be a deathblow to blu ray."

I am of the opinion that part of why Warner went to bluray is because to kill off bluray it would have taken someone else to join the HD-DVD side besides Warner. If Disney jumped over to HD-DVD with Warner, ok, death blow.

Warner's goal seems to be to end the war so studios can start making money. Not so Toshiba, Panasonic, etc., can start making mony or Sony losing money. Its so studios can make money and to make money the war has to be over. I'm sure the dialog in their board room was not which is better technolgy, who has what game console, etc. I bet the question was asked, "How do we end the format war?" When it became clear nothing Warner was going to do inside the HD-DVD camp would end it but joining bluray would, the course of action was a no brainer.

There maybe some skirmishes over the next few months but the war's end is in sight.

This is a very odd and entertaining thread. Looks like all the deniers are in force now!

"offensive/ridiculous than comparing the HD-DVD camp favorably to Iraqi insurgents."

Yes, that is pretty lame too. I however am not related to nor do I know any Iraqi insurgents.

What else is Toshiba suppose to say to a fatal blow to HD DVD when they need to unload pallets of obsolete HD DVD players.

If Toshiba keeps it's head up and pushes HD DVD in the upcoming months, it seems their intention is not HDM adoption but try to postpone it to sell(liquidate) their existing inventory of players.

Hopefully, other studio's will abandon ship as HD DVD is dead.
The news has spread to Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City and probably all other large CE stores and they will most likely setup a plan to fade out HD DVD quickly to push HDM adoption in their stores.

Does LG make a Blu-ray only players? Why did you include them in the Blu-ray totals only. What about Samsung? Don't they make a dual player?

Also, that is YTD. You left out 8 months of last year when HD DVD dominated.Sorry to shock you, but HD DVD marketshare fell drastically in the last 8 months, from 2:1 to 1:1, with them being overtaken by Blu-ray standalones in December.

Toshiba just annouced that there are 1 million HD DVD players (including the 360 add-on). The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player. Warner is still making HD DVDs for the next 5 months. Retailers who are not paid-off will continue to sell HD DVD.

and that's the bottom line.

Does LG make a Blu-ray only players? Why did you include them in the Blu-ray totals only. What about Samsung? Don't they make a dual player?

Also, that is YTD. You left out 8 months of last year when HD DVD dominated.

Not sure why you think I included LG in the BD numbers because I did not.

those numbers are YTD through DEC...how does that exclude the last 8 months of the year??? :confused:

here is the breakdown with DF players:

Oct
HD DVD: 53
BD: 44
DF: 3

Dec 20
HD DVD: 49
BD: 48
DF: 3

geez no sense of humor around here...

This is a very odd and entertaining thread. Looks like all the deniers are in force now!

Most of the threads on here are just like this. Lots of ... amazing reading. I'm saving copies of these threads for future generations.

so you still think that after averaging this out using sales volumes that HD DVD will beat blu ray???

dave v said that two weeks of Dec were the largest volume wise and BD won those 61:39...

HD DVD got beat in hardware and software sales...there is no way to spin that. Period.

no, those 61:39 weeks count more in the average then the first week of last year. i was just pointing out that unless you have more information than is publicly available you can't claim the average for the year is 65:35. the best you could do is claim the median for the year is 65:35.

blu-ray won every week last year, so it is obvious they sold more titles in 2007. i wasn't debating that point. but if transformers week was a very high volume week with blu-ray winning 51:49 it "counts more towards the average" than 1/52.

geez no sense of humor around here...

Usually isn't at a wake.

this shows that according to whatever stats (probably npd) you are using, the bda put more blu-ray players in consumers' hands in november and december than toshiba put hd dvd players in consumers' hands.

i make the distinction put versus sold because i know that a certain percentage of blu-ray players (and a few hd dvd players, too) were literally given away as a freebie from best buy, vanns, etc. with the purchase of a new hdtv. i guess these count as sales, but...

i find it hard to believe, though that: hd dvd sold ~100,000 players in a few days in early november; the week before thanksgiving sales were approximately 5,000 for hd dvd and 6,000 for blu-ray; thanksgiving week sales were 30,000 hd dvd and 20,000 blu-ray; and then suddenly blu-ray outsells hd dvd by over 100,000 in december?

if they moved them with televisions i would be a little less skeptical, although i'm sure the $300 hd-a3 and $300 blu-ray profile 1.0 players on sale at best buy (even though amazon was selling the hd-a3 for around $200 with blu-ray players starting at about $300) may have slanted things toward blu-ray, too. blu-ray probably sells better at equal price points (especially when the hd-a3 is 1080i) -- i believe best buy's regular price for the hd-a30 is $400. for the average consumer, a 1080p player is a 1080p player (the blu-ray 1.0 player would have looked like it was $100 less than the hd-a30).

I have posted the sources I used. If you do not agree with them, I don't know what else to say.

Usually isn't at a wake.

Shouldn't there be dancing?

Usually isn't at a wake.


HA and a witty reply from a Monty

and that's the bottom line.

Until, of course, Universal and Paramount see the sales numbers of other studios new releases growing compared to their stagnating sales numbers.

Unless all HD-DVD owners plan to buy 3-4 copies of every new release, the studios would be doing their stockholders a disservice to stay exclusive.

Toshiba just annouced that there are 1 million HD DVD players (including the 360 add-on). The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player. Warner is still making HD DVDs for the next 5 months. Retailers who are not paid-off will continue to sell HD DVD.

That's not what I've heard lately(since Warners annoucement).
HD DVD supports have stated that taking an SD DVD and upconverting them to 1080p/i is just as good.

So, those who don't have HD DVD players(I own the A20) can rent Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movies on SD DVD for $3 or less and upconvert them to HD using their Blu-ray players until those studios release on Blu-ray in about 6 months or less to capitalize on their new consumer base.

Toshiba just annouced that there are 1 million HD DVD players (including the 360 add-on). The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player. Warner is still making HD DVDs for the next 5 months. Retailers who are not paid-off will continue to sell HD DVD.

I wonder how many of the 1 million HDDVD players were bought by consumers who also own a BR player? Even if Toshiba throws in the towel tomorrow, you are going to have a signifiant number of disgruntled consumers - many of whom just bought their HDDVD player!

Mil...

I think your Monty Python thing is a riot.

:)

Toshiba just annouced that there are 1 million HD DVD players (including the 360 add-on).And are getting outsold on both fronts. Not to mention that there are a lot of dual-format owners, and judging by AVS, a lot of people who picked up 2nd or 3rd room players or replacements. In fact, that explains why such a surge in HD DVD player sales failed to actually sell HD DVD movies.
The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player.Really? So I guess my "Mission:Impossible", "Dreamgirls", and "Sleepy Hollow" Blu-rays don't exist, nor do all of those cable channels showing Paramount, Dreamworks, and Universal films 24/7. Oh, wait. They do.

Heat and everdog....

"The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player"

Well yes and no. I can upscale any of their regular dvd's to 1080p with my 80 dollar Sony 77 and with dd any of them sound pretty dang good. So I don't HAVE to buy an HD-DVD to watch their movies in high quality video and sound. That will be their problem. Folks will be more than happy to enjoy bluray for most of their dvd's and upscale SD-DVD for a select group of movies from any studio that does not support bluray. Its not an either or situation.

Heat and everdog....

"The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player"

Well yes and no. I can upscale any of their regular dvd's to 1080p with my 80 dollar Sony 77 and with dd any of them sound pretty dang good. So I don't HAVE to buy an HD-DVD to watch their movies in high quality video and sound. That will be their problem. Folks will be more than happy to enjoy bluray for most of their dvd's and upscale SD-DVD for a select group of movies from any studio that does not support bluray. Its not an either or situation.

let's see what happens with Universal and Paramount and how long they stay HD DVD exclusive...

Heat and everdog....

"The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player"

Well yes and no. I can upscale any of their regular dvd's to 1080p with my 80 dollar Sony 77 and with dd any of them sound pretty dang good. So I don't HAVE to buy an HD-DVD to watch their movies in high quality video and sound. That will be their problem. Folks will be more than happy to enjoy bluray for most of their dvd's and upscale SD-DVD for a select group of movies from any studio that does not support bluray. Its not an either or situation.

Which also hurts Blu-ray, since the sale goes to DVD - I doubt Paramount, Universal, etc. care too much, as they win either way...

"Dreamgirls"

JB...

Please don't ever use that movie in any argument about format wars! Also try to refrain from using Eddie Murphy's Norbett.

What a waste of technology!

Not sure why you think I included LG in the BD numbers because I did not.



Um, because you posted a link that claimed, "that there are more BD standalones in homes."

http://thumb.swagster.com/thumb/2008010708411231354swag_image.jpg (http://swagster.com/image_full.php?id=MjAwODAxMDcwODQxMTIzMTM1NHN3YWdfaW1hZ2Uuan Bn&user=&image_title=aW1ub3RkZWFk&swag_id=183&image_id=31354)

The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.

[a man puts a body on the cart]

Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.

The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.

Toshiba: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: What?

Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.

Toshiba: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.

Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.

Toshiba: I'm not.

The Dead Collector: He isn't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.

Toshiba: I'm getting better.

Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.

Toshiba: I don't want to go to 2008 CES.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.

The Dead Collector: I can't take him.

Toshiba: I feel fine.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.

The Dead Collector: I can't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of
minutes? He won't be long.

:D:D:D:D:D
"NI! NI!! NI!!!!"

Projector....

"Which also hurts Blu-ray, since the sale goes to DVD"

Yes. Which is why I am not in with the "crowd" that is wringing their hands over prices going up cause no competition. SD-DVD's are not going away. The market is not the same as when we went to DVD's. SD-DVD's are going to continue to keep whatever hd format is out there in check.

Um, because you posted a link that claimed, "that there are more BD standalones in homes."

guess I missed that...I just looked at the numbers...my posts did not say that. so you focus on that post title and didn't even see the numbers that were presented on it? do you just look for things like that so you don't have to talk about the numbers I presented?

are you serious?

HD Standalone marketshare was 53% in October and 49% in December - BD went from 44% to 48%. This shows that BD sold more standalones in that time period.

This doesn't even count the PS3 sales.

Do we really need to discuss software sales? BD won every week of 2007 with a YTD average of 65:35.

and what were you talking about me excluding the last 8 months? still confused about that.

Heat and everdog....

"The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player"

Well yes and no. I can upscale any of their regular dvd's to 1080p with my 80 dollar Sony 77 and with dd any of them sound pretty dang good. So I don't HAVE to buy an HD-DVD to watch their movies in high quality video and sound. That will be their problem. Folks will be more than happy to enjoy bluray for most of their dvd's and upscale SD-DVD for a select group of movies from any studio that does not support bluray. Its not an either or situation.

It's not an either or? Really :confused:

space...

"let's see what happens with Universal and Paramount and how long they stay HD DVD exclusive..."

Maybe a pool is in order? Start picking dates for when they pull the plug and go to bluray?

Which also hurts Blu-ray, since the sale goes to DVD - I doubt Paramount, Universal, etc. care too much, as they win either way...

By this logic, why should any of the studios bother with HD-DVD or Blu-ray at all?

Heat and everdog....

"The ONLY way to watch a Paramount, Dreamworks, or Universal movie in HD is with an HD DVD player"

Well yes and no. I can upscale any of their regular dvd's to 1080p with my 80 dollar Sony 77 and with dd any of them sound pretty dang good. So I don't HAVE to buy an HD-DVD to watch their movies in high quality video and sound. That will be their problem. Folks will be more than happy to enjoy bluray for most of their dvd's and upscale SD-DVD for a select group of movies from any studio that does not support bluray. Its not an either or situation.

No, as you said, the probem is that most people will be happy to buy that $79 player and watch cheaper SD DVDs upscaled on it, rather than to pay $400 for a player that only does the exact same thing with their SD movie collection.

Until Blu-ray offers a sub $99 player and discs that are the same price as SD, we are talking niche.

By this logic, why should any of the studios bother with HD-DVD or Blu-ray at all?

Because every studio has been paid massive amounts of $.:D

Here's my perspective, as someone who got themself an HD DVD player and a handful of discs for Christmas:

I'm going to continue to use my HD DVD player, and purchase new HD DVD discs. Probably even a handful of Warner discs before this summer. And discs from other studios after that. If there comes a 'critical mass' of movies that I REALLY want in high-def but are only available on Blu-Ray... then around Christmas of next year, I'll be looking at Blu-Ray players. With luck, I'll be able to pick up a Blu-Ray player at a price point comparable to what my HD DVD player cost (~$200) by then.

So, uh, where's the crisis again?

By this logic, why should any of the studios bother with HD-DVD or Blu-ray at all?

I venture well see the answer of that question this year since a dominant format will emerge.

With a majority of studios on one side, they can't blame the war for delaying HD releases, bad releases or overall inaction anymore.

It's time to put up or shut up.

BF....

"It's not an either or? Really"

Yes. Its not either you watch their movies on HD-DVD or NOT at all. Its not either or.

You can still have a pretty outstanding video/audio experience with their SD-DVD's. Which again is why this is nothing like VHS to DVD transition.

Mil...

I think your Monty Python thing is a riot.

:)
Ty Ty

I am a HDDVD supporter but lets face it the tide has turned.

I have at last count 98 HDDVD's and although I am disappointed at the latest turn of events it is not going to ruin my day,week,month nor year.

I have my health,family,home,and happiness. EVERYTHING else is a bonus.

By having two formats I believe prices have come down much faster and further than if we only had one format.

In my opinion with a few other items to be added the formats had matured to the point that they show more of their similarities and their differences diminished.

Managed Copy and Region Free movies are the only things that I would like to see worked on by bluray.But I am not expecting it to happen.

I will still support HDDVD by purchasing Universal and Paramount movies and if and when they stop making HDDVD movies so be it.I will then enjoy what I have and wait for lower priced stand alone blu-ray players.

space...

"let's see what happens with Universal and Paramount and how long they stay HD DVD exclusive..."

Maybe a pool is in order? Start picking dates for when they pull the plug and go to bluray?

I pick May as the last month Warner makes HD DVDs!

btw, it is more profitable to accept pay-offs than to make Blu-ray discs.

Paramount should stick with ther contact, keep that money, and then make a boat-load more when the finally do start making blu discs.

Think about it..how many blu discs have sold over 100,000? 5?

5-8 million is a good opening week for SD.

BF....

"It's not an either or? Really"

Yes. Its not either you watch their movies on HD-DVD or NOT at all. Its not either or.

You can still have a pretty outstanding video/audio experience with their SD-DVD's. Which again is why this is nothing like VHS to DVD transition.

I'd love to be on the same planet you are on, SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats.

I'd love to be on the same planet you are on, SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats.

that is in your opinion now isn't it..... do not confuse your opinion with what other people hear/see. It is different between people. ;) That why we have numerous speaker manufactures out there ;)

What really makes me scratch my head in this article is the author is saying Toshiba counted the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 in that 1 million sold figure. It is very disingenuous to not include then the 2.5 million+ PS3's sold in addition to the 1 million stand-alone players using their own figures aga

How many times does this have to be stated. The HD DVD addon plays only HD DVDs that's why. It doesn't play games. People who buy it buy it solely for playing HD DVDs. That's why the calculation is sompletely appropriate.

In any event, time for Toshiba to wrap it up. They were beaten to the punch by one of the biggest HDM supporters and one of the initial sole supporters of HD DVD. The writing is on the wall. Pack it up and bow out gracefully instead of trying to mislead consumers by suggesting there is the remotest chance of success. Paramount and Universal will likely make the move in any event. The rational for continuing what is now a tinier niche share is not supportable. The market is best served for HDM by unifying against the declining dvd market.

with such a small market share for both competitors I dont see how either could be in a precarious postion unless they just decide its not worth the effort.

Universal's market share in the HVM is still the same. With the Warner move the respective market shares between studio's on HDM market shares is now devided in the same chunks as the HVM market.
HD DVD lost Warner but BR, apart from a marketing boost didn't gain content.

Market share wise nothing changes for Universal /Paramount / Dreamworks.
It doesn't matter if they go blu or red. Should they stop making movies because they only have let's say 30% of the movie industry market?

What does matter for them is that over the following months HD DVD must show signs of survival. The sales of their HDM might tank because consumer confidence is gone forever or they might win consumer confidence back if they keep with the lower price strategy.

that is in your opinion now isn't it..... do not confuse your opinion with what other people hear/see. It is different between people. ;) That why we have numerous speaker manufactures out there ;)

are you saying that Bose doesn't make the best sounding speakers on earth?? Blasphemy!

Ever..

"No, as you said, the probem is that most people will be happy to buy that $79 player and watch cheaper SD DVDs upscaled on it..."

I'm sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you are saying "no" to. Hard to qualify "most people" as its pretty broad, but I'd say folks who want to go to high def DVD will go with where the most software is. They'll be ok with mostly bluray and an occassional upscaled sd-dvd from TWO studios.

So what are you saying "no" to?

In fact my buying process now, since I'll be taking back all my unopened hd-dvd's, will continue to be the same. I will for now only buy high def dvd's for which I don't have on sd-dvd. I'm not replacing dvd's I already own. Which is clearly not what happened with me and others with vhs to dvd.

Do high def dvd's look and sound better than sd-dvd? Of course. Better "enough" that sd-dvd's are substandard? No way.

Eskimo....

"SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats."

Then you need to get a better dvd player than that one from Walmart or Costco.

Because every studio has been paid massive amounts of $.:D

I know you were being facetious, but people keep talking about these "massive amounts" of money the studios are getting paid to go one way or the other, and, although they're not chump change, they're only a drop in the bucket compared to how much they stand to gain or lose if they destroy the market for HDM.

(Not to mention that body knows exactly how much money has actually exchanged hands, in what form it happened (patent licensing sharing maybe), or how much the "other side" was offering.)

Either Uni or Para will become neutral or switch to BD exclusive within six months. By Christmas HD DVD will be dead and it will be a great season for BD because people won't be afraid to jump any more. Unfortunately after a few years J6P will get too involved in HDM and we'll see quality go downhill. Fortunately by that time we'll be seeing theaters finally switching to ditital transmissions and these masters will show up on Usenet and the like. These babies should blow HD DVD and BD away. ;)

If Sony would have spent that $500 million on discounting Blu-ray players instead of bribing studios, the format war would be over by now.

I know you were being facetious, but people keep talking about these "massive amounts" of money the studios are getting paid to go one way or the other, and, although they're not chump change, they're only a drop in the bucket compared to how much they stand to gain or lose if they destroy the market for HDM.

(Not to mention that body knows exactly how much money has actually exchanged hands, in what form it happened (patent licensing sharing maybe), or how much the "other side" was offering.)

You mean gain.

Remember the movie was made already and the budget allocated. The ONLY cost that the studios need covering after the Cinema is the advertising budget and any cost incured for authoring, encoding etc (if it was not part of the initial budget).

This is no where near the initial movie budget though :)

As for gains,

Come March, we should get an idea through SEC filings ;)

Eskimo....

"SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats."

Then you need to get a better dvd player than that one from Walmart or Costco.

You'd have to be seriously blind to not see the difference on any decent HDTV over 42". Even using the fanciest, tastiest, shiniest upconverter.

Take a 720x480 picture in Photoshop and resize it 1920x1080 using the fanciest filters you'd like and see how close you can come to a 1920x1080 original.

Frank,

"What does matter for them is that over the following months HD DVD must show signs of survival. "

Very true. But it is at that crossroad that hardware is being driving by market perception regarding software. I watched on Sunday when I was at Best Buy for about 45 minutes several folks brought back their HD-DVD players. Folks are not going to buy hd-dvd players due to the perception now in place "out there". And you can put all the facts out there you want, the facts don't matter. The perception is HD-DVD is dead. Its in several news papers and even on the BBC over the weekend. People will buy bluray players instead of HD-DVD. Which means the platform for HD-DVD is going to shrink. So HD-DVD studios will jump ship quickly as well.

I don't like it mind you. I have Toshiba A35 and several HD-DVD's. I picked HD-DVD to win. I was wrong. Its time to switch when some of us can still switch without too much pain.

Toshiba is going to say whatever they need to to sell their inventory.

You mean gain.


True. I suppose they'd "lose" whatever they've already dumped into HDM advertising/technology. I was thinking more along the lines of lost potential revenue. I'm obviously not an accountant... :)

Eskimo....

"SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats."

Then you need to get a better dvd player than that one from Walmart or Costco.

I think you need a better setup to truly appreciate HDM. SD is rubbish.

Another perspective: An article in the Wall Street Journal today speculated that Sony's ascendancy in the format "war" may prove a brief victory:

"In any case, most home-entertainment chiefs see next-generation DVD as a temporary format that will last only as long as it takes for a superior technology to catch on. Most agree that while online movie distribution is still too clunky for the casual movie consumer, one day in the not too distant future it will dominate."

I've always believed that VOD and downloads would render any HD disc-media-based format a niche player relatively quickly. A new generation of terrabyte tivos is about to hit the market and new compression algorithms make the ability to distribute HD material over the internet a more likely possibility. As to SD DVD, it'll be around for a long time as a cheap way to play movies in multiple locations (like the minivan).

Brian

Well, the "fat lady" hasn't sung just yet......but she's likely in the dressing room...warming up...

Toshiba should consider releasing a DF player. Then take a loss on it by undercutting every BD player on the market @ the time or offer a serious dscount to everyone that bought/registered/can prove they own an HD DVD player from them.

If Sony would have spent that $500 million on discounting Blu-ray players instead of bribing studios, the format war would be over by now.

I don't mind people calling it a "bribe" if it's used equally on both sides. Did you call it such when Paramount when HD-DVD exclusive? Are you calling the HD-DVD's groups failed attempts to sway Warner and Fox into HD-DVD exclusivity "bribes"? If you are, then... very well, carry on... :)

Oscar...

"You'd have to be seriously blind to not see the difference"

Not blind here. 60 inch Sony 60A3000. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. There is. Is that difference the same as VHS to DVD? No, it is not. DVD is pretty good. High def DVD better? Of course. Better enough that if I have to choose between a disk at 9.99 or buy the same move at 59.99 that I'll spend 59.99? NO. Better enough that I'll force myself to buy two different high def players and disk? NO.

I'm pretty sure that opinion is a fairly common opinion which is one reason why sales are not what the studios are looking for.

makes movies in flash drives, makes optical obsolete in one fell swoop.

No moving parts so less "breaking" of players. Same with downloads.

tsb...

"SD is rubbish."

You must be a high def salesman tsb....

BF....

"It's not an either or? Really"

Yes. Its not either you watch their movies on HD-DVD or NOT at all. Its not either or.

You can still have a pretty outstanding video/audio experience with their SD-DVD's. Which again is why this is nothing like VHS to DVD transition.

I understand that, I guess I was trying to say in reference to those who haven't made the jump. As an HD DVD Supporter I have the same option, but I'm irrelevant. I'm really talking about those who haven't made the jump. Many people(my own family & friends included) feel Up-Converted SD DVD are HD when played on a HDTV. So if that's the sense why would someone shell-out $400.00 for a BD Player. $25-$35 for a movie, when they can shell-out $50-$100 for an Up-Convert Player & $15.00 for a SD DVD Movie.

Hope I made some sense. :(

makes movies in flash drives, makes optical obsolete in one fell swoop.

No moving parts so less "breaking" of players. Same with downloads.

Figgie,

The WSJ article I mentioned in my last post speculates that this will indeed be Toshiba's strategy moving forward.

Brian

I prefer HD DVD, but why drag this out any longer? Blu Ray gained a lot of momentum with this announcement, and Toshiba is going to have to make some major moves just to keep from drowning in the next few months. I just don't see how prolonging the war at this point, at the content disadvantage they are at, is a good thing.

Another perspective: An article in the Wall Street Journal today speculated that Sony's ascendancy in the format "war" may prove a brief victory

All formats have a limited lifespan. They all get replaced eventually. I'm sure direct media download will eventually be a strong force, if not the primary force, in video distribution. I wouldn't hold my breath for it, though - we have a few years (at least).

Here's my perspective, as someone who got themself an HD DVD player and a handful of discs for Christmas:

I'm going to continue to use my HD DVD player, and purchase new HD DVD discs. Probably even a handful of Warner discs before this summer. And discs from other studios after that. If there comes a 'critical mass' of movies that I REALLY want in high-def but are only available on Blu-Ray... then around Christmas of next year, I'll be looking at Blu-Ray players. With luck, I'll be able to pick up a Blu-Ray player at a price point comparable to what my HD DVD player cost (~$200) by then.

So, uh, where's the crisis again?

Amen, brother. It's not as if the WB announcement caused every HD DVD player and/or disc to suddenly disintegrate.

Better enough that if I have to choose between a disk at 9.99 or buy the same move at 59.99 that I'll spend 59.99? NO. Better enough that I'll force myself to buy two different high def players and disk? NO.

I'm pretty sure that opinion is a fairly common opinion which is one reason why sales are not what the studios are looking for.

Yes, that's the problem HDM faces. J6P just doesn't appreciate HDM. I personally see a huge difference and can't stand SD DVD, but my wife and BIL don't care at all. They did the same thing to music. We have two wonderful formats, SACD and DVD-A, but J6P prefers MP3. What a shame!

It makes me ashamed to be human almost. :eek:

Oscar...

"You'd have to be seriously blind to not see the difference"

Not blind here. 60 inch Sony 60A3000. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. There is. Is that difference the same as VHS to DVD? No, it is not. DVD is pretty good. High def DVD better? Of course. Better enough that if I have to choose between a disk at 9.99 or buy the same move at 59.99 that I'll spend 59.99? NO. Better enough that I'll force myself to buy two different high def players and disk? NO.

I'm pretty sure that opinion is a fairly common opinion which is one reason why sales are not what the studios are looking for.

I have a 60A2000, basically the same tv minus the 24p 120hz. I see a huge difference between blu and SD.

BF....

"So if that's the sense why would someone shell-out $400.00 for a BD Player."

That is exactly right. Which is why folks have not done so. They have no good reason to take the plunge. The market share for DVD vs high def dvd illustrates precisely that.

I do find it funny that some folks on this forum will bash the "typical" consumer as being basically ignorant but then at the same time say that the "typical" consumer is waiting for the format war to settle. Funny how they are smart enough to realize there is a format war and not to spend their money but at the same time they are just plain stupid.

Figgie,

The WSJ article I mentioned in my last post speculates that this will indeed be Toshiba's strategy moving forward.

Brian


Samsung will start mass producing chips in a couple of years that will enable this possibility. I'm all for it. I do not want video downloads. I want to hold my media.

I understand that, I guess I was trying to say in reference to those who haven't made the jump. As an HD DVD Supporter I have the same option, but I'm irrelevant. I'm really talking about those who haven't made the jump. Many people(my own family & friends included) feel Up-Converted SD DVD are HD when played on a HDTV. So if that's the sense why would someone shell-out $400.00 for a BD Player. $25-$35 for a movie, when they can shell-out $50-$100 for an Up-Convert Player & $15.00 for a SD DVD Movie.

Hope I made some sense. :(

Good points. I have both HD DVD and BD. My problem is the dearth of good content. Hollywood makes movies for adolescent males (with a few exceptions). I might shell out a few bucks to watch such a movie again on DVD, but $25-$34.99 for an HD version is out of the question (who the heck bought "Weekend at Bernies" in high def, for example?). There are 5-6 movies a year I might consider in HD. The problem for HD media is that the parents buy the movies; kids really don't care if the movie is BD or not, and parents want to be able to show movies in multiple places. Only SD DVD offers this convenience and price point. It's not good, but for most folks, it's "good enough."

Brian

BF....

"So if that's the sense why would someone shell-out $400.00 for a BD Player."

That is exactly right. Which is why folks have not done so. They have no good reason to take the plunge. The market share for DVD vs high def dvd illustrates precisely that.

I do find it funny that some folks on this forum will bash the "typical" consumer as being basically ignorant but then at the same time say that the "typical" consumer is waiting for the format war to settle. Funny how they are smart enough to realize there is a format war and not to spend their money but at the same time they are just plain stupid.

Until the # of US homes that actually have an HDTV in them surpases 60-75%, neither format would ever hope to see "mass adoption".

...Toshiba is going to have to make some major moves just to keep from drowning in the next few months. I just don't see how prolonging the war at this point, at the content disadvantage they are at, is a good thing.
Drowning how?

Unless their CE division can blow through 1,700 billion Yen (at todays rate that is 15.545 billion USD) i highly doubt they are drowning in any form ;)

Hell even Sony couldn't do that with thier PS3 (2 billion and counting only).

"Weekend at Bernies" in high def, .....
Brian

It is out in High Def????? :confused:

BF....

The market share for DVD vs high def dvd illustrates precisely that.

I do find it funny that some folks on this forum will bash the "typical" consumer as being basically ignorant but then at the same time say that the "typical" consumer is waiting for the format war to settle. Funny how they are smart enough to realize there is a format war and not to spend their money but at the same time they are just plain stupid.

I see you have come to that conclusion also...

BF....

"So if that's the sense why would someone shell-out $400.00 for a BD Player."

That is exactly right. Which is why folks have not done so. They have no good reason to take the plunge. The market share for DVD vs high def dvd illustrates precisely that.

I do find it funny that some folks on this forum will bash the "typical" consumer as being basically ignorant but then at the same time say that the "typical" consumer is waiting for the format war to settle. Funny how they are smart enough to realize there is a format war and not to spend their money but at the same time they are just plain stupid.

The average consumer doesn't even have a HDTV yet. Look, despite the advantage of pricing, it's apparent that BD SALs outsold their HD DVD counterparts starting sometime in December and have reached near parity in the sales numbers.

The marketshare illustrates a lot of things.


1. The format war was keeping people off the fence.

2. Most people still don't have a HDTV

3. Some people don't care.


If you don't think there is a significant difference between upscaled SD content and HD native content, no amount of facts, figures or debate is going to change your mind.

Personally, now that I've seen it and experienced it, there's no way I am going back. Either format could have taken the prize, and I'd have been backing either one, didn't matter.

Goat....

"I see a huge difference between blu and SD."

I'm glad you see a huge difference. Don't see huge either here or in any display for comparison. I see a difference and prefer HD. Most certainly. Just don't see "huge". Saw "huge" from VHS to DVD. SD-DVD much better with upscaling to 1080P. HD much more watchable and detailed and sounds better than SD-DVD. Just can't get to "huge" to describe the improvement.

It sound more like eulogy than a press release. Why didn't the entertain Q & A with the media?

Perhaps they just don't have any answers.:eek:

All formats have a limited lifespan. They all get replaced eventually. I'm sure direct media download will eventually be a strong force, if not the primary force, in video distribution. I wouldn't hold my breath for it, though - we have a few years (at least).

Very true. If BD gets replaced, I certainly won't run out and dump a (by then) significant investment in BD discs. That's why I can't understand those in the HD DVD community who are running out and dumping their players and discs. Will they do the same with their BD collections when downloading or some other distribution medium replaces BD? As you say, Oscarfowler, we're _all_ living on borrowed time.

Brian

Goat....

"I see a huge difference between blu and SD."

I'm glad you see a huge difference. Don't see huge either here or in any display for comparison. I see a difference and prefer HD. Most certainly. Just don't see "huge". Saw "huge" from VHS to DVD. SD-DVD much better with upscaling to 1080P. HD much more watchable and detailed and sounds better than SD-DVD. Just can't get to "huge" to describe the improvement.

HDTV is as huge today as color TV was years ago.

Once you get on the train, there's no going back. I'd say that's huge.

Drowning how?

Unless their CE division can blow through 1,700 billion Yen (at todays rate that is 15.545 billion USD) i highly doubt they are drowning in any form ;)

Hell even Sony couldn't do that with thier PS3 (2 billion and counting only).

drowning in terms of the format war. With only 2 exclusive studios left, and the other side just got a big shot in the arm...let's be realistic here.

Well retailers really don't have a lot of say in this. They are paid to stock items anyways. Most of them rent shelf space. So if studios want to sell movies, they'll keep paying the retailers to do so. If you think that retailers will drop Toshiba or suddenly discard HD DVD titles, you are in for a surprise.

HD DVD is not going anywhere this year and the only difference will be noticable, possibly starting Q3 2008 when Warner titles stop being published on HD DVD. I think most Blu-Ray fans need to accept this fact.

You really don't have a grasp on reality.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/jeffkleist/editorial010108.html

Eskimo,

"If you don't think there is a significant difference between upscaled SD content and HD native content"

Here is what I know about the market and the "typical" consumer. If there was a significant improvment, the new technlogy would sell itself. When there is a significant improvment, that improvement creates its own momentum. Ask any record album/vinyl making company. No one had to sell the masses on CD's. No one had to sell the masses on DVD. The improvments sold themselves.

Is HD better? YES. Am I glad I have high def dvd and big screen tv? You bet! Am I going to invest in SD-DVD player? No. Buy a lot of SD-DVD's? No. Glad the war is over? Yes. Taking back my HD-DVD and settling in on bluray.

Is HD-DVD significantly better than SD-DVD and SD-DVD's rubbish? Nope. SD-DVD pretty dang good. Upscaled to 1080p/dolby or dts sound track, pretty great viewing and listening experience. The "Wow" factor not as big as when we did last big leap to DVD.

High def DVD better? Of course. Better enough that if I have to choose between a disk at 9.99 or buy the same move at 59.99 that I'll spend 59.99? NO. Better enough that I'll force myself to buy two different high def players and disk? NO.


At $59.99 prices I'd agree with you - I'd rarely, if ever, be able to justify the price increase. But I've never seen a single-disc HDM video go for that price, and there's no reason to believe the media will command that much of a premium over SD. Those who are unhappy with the way this 'war' is turning out are the only ones predicting such dire consequences.

I never bought the "HD-DVD is cheaper to manufacture and therefore better" argument, even back when this format battle started taking shape. It was only a matter of time before production efficiencies wiped out any price differences between the two formats.

Plus, it seemed to me that "the cheapest product" wasn't the primary consideration for the target audience anyway. The people who really care about HD are spending thousands on displays and related equipment. These are the ones who are going to go for the $199 player instead of the $399 player? These are the ones who won't buy a disc if it isn't $9.99 or less? I don't think so.

Sure, eventually the products and technology need to get into the hands of "the masses" who really will care about those pricing issues. But every other technology has "proved itself", gained momentum and naturally improved production efficiencies on its way to those masses.

While the format war (and competition in general) has resulted in some good positives, the prices we've been seeing have been "unnaturally" low. These prices are only sustainable as long as the marketing groups for each camp keep subsidizing them - something they're obviously not going to do indefinitely.

I'm glad the Blu-ray side didn't let hardware prices plummet to the depths the HD-DVD side did, otherwise there's have to be a serious "price correction" once the battle was over. Even so, we've now got a bunch of new people who demand $99 players and $9 discs and think it's the BDA's fault that they may not keep getting them. They haven't been privy to everything that's been going on (or, in the cases of at least a couple of people on this board, are just willfully ignorant) so they're shocked, stuck, and truly can't afford to make a switch. At least not immediately.

Woah -- didn't mean to get on a soapbox! I'll jump off now...

drowning in terms of the format war. With only 2 exclusive studios left, and the other side just got a big shot in the arm...let's be realistic here.

I am,

if I make a widget and it makes me money. Why exactly would I be "drowning" if it is making me money?

No, as you said, the probem is that most people will be happy to buy that $79 player and watch cheaper SD DVDs upscaled on it, rather than to pay $400 for a player that only does the exact same thing with their SD movie collection.

Until Blu-ray offers a sub $99 player and discs that are the same price as SD, we are talking niche.

Try to buy a non HDTV today.

As people replace thier TVs with HD there will be an impetus for HD source material.

Just ask Dish or DirecTV or the Cablecos, who provide a medium def product with a Hi Def wrapper. That is why Blu can "win" with the messed up profile problems etc.

So the SD DVD will eventually be as useful and demanded as a VHS tape.

It is not today which is important to the players in this game, it is in being in the position to capture the future.

I am,

if I make a widget and it makes me money. Why exactly would I be "drowning" if it is making me money?



Two words: Opportunity Cost.

It makes sense to plan ahead and go with what's also more profitable, not just what's getting by now.

It is not today which is important to the players in this game, it is in being in the position to capture the future.

Exactly. Studios wouldn't be getting "bribed" by the millions if the parties involved didn't expect to see huge potential in the upcoming years.

Two words: Opportunity Cost.

It makes sense to plan ahead and go with what's also more profitable, not just what's getting by now.

Which is a risk and we don't know for 100% fact that HDM is or WILL BE MORE profitable. ;)

Opportunity Cost has a risk factor X associated with it. As such, if the product is making sustainable profit. It can stay on the market. (UMD's, Memory Stick, Zune)

At that point, capital would have to be influxed for R&D to come out with the next product that you want to do royalties on but that requires some form of risk.

So the SD DVD will eventually be as useful and demanded as a VHS tape.

I think that's gonna be a while as the a public at large has a large appetite for things that are both cheap and "good enough" like movies on SD DVD and music in the form of MP3 files.

Two words: Opportunity Cost.

It makes sense to plan ahead and go with what's also more profitable, not just what's getting by now.

That, and the public image problem of looking like a company that isn't on the leading edge of technology. I think Toshiba is very proud of its status as an innovator and rightly so.

Oscar....

"I'm glad the Blu-ray side didn't let hardware prices plummet to the depths the HD-DVD side did,"

Would it be okay if they did for like one day? I'm thinking like Tuesday next week?

Jim

I am,

if I make a widget and it makes me money. Why exactly would I be "drowning" if it is making me money?

and how long will that widget continue to make money when more and more things are stacked against it? If there's another widget that's making more..it would be the smart move to go that way.

btw, I'll still be buying Uni and Paramount titles, so I'll be kickin' some coin to your widget for a little while :)

If Sony would have spent that $500 million on discounting Blu-ray players instead of bribing studios, the format war would be over by now.

$150M for Paramount for HD DVD
$500M for Warner for blu-ray

An easier sell for HD DVD I guess ...

Using this data, I think Disney could grab $1B dollars ... more than they could ever hope for selling discs in the next 5 years. If I were them I would make some noise to start the bidding.

Oscar....

"I'm glad the Blu-ray side didn't let hardware prices plummet to the depths the HD-DVD side did,"

Would it be okay if they did for like one day? I'm thinking like Tuesday next week?

Jim

LOL

I'm sure there will be many deals/bargains to be had. That guy I'm not supposed to mention over at d i git a l bi ts. com (I seriously had a post deleted because I mentioned him!) said that he spoke with some people at the BDA and it really sounded like they're thinking seriously about providing some "peace offerings"/incentives to those who have HD-DVD equipment/media. Check out his site.

This $500m to Warner sure seems like a case of repeating a lie often enough and it comes truth.. Is there yet any proof?

This $500m to Warner sure seems like a case of repeating a lie often enough and it comes truth.. Is there yet any proof?

No. The rumors are that both sides were offering Warner a lot to become exclusive.

The only official thing that has been published is Warner saying they didn't accept any incentives.

Some people keep mentioning it because it makes them feel better. At the same time they ignore the published and confirmed Paramount incentive. Anyway, they're welcome to hold on to that.

Sony has already said in their presser that they will continue to manufacturer and sell their BD players (S300, S500 and ES2000) of which none are 1.1.

Their new BD players called Saphaire (sp ck) 3 and 4 will be 1.1 and 2.0 compliant and will be released in the Q2 to Q3 time frame.

Nothing stopping Sony from pricing the S300 at $199 and giving 10 free BD movies with it.

This $500m to Warner sure seems like a case of repeating a lie often enough and it comes truth.. Is there yet any proof?

Just that I was talking with my Aunt Violet who had a conversation with Uncle Allistair who knows somebody who has a brother who used to work in the mailroom of a big movies studio and knows for sure that .......

I'd love to be on the same planet you are on, SD DVD looks like trash comparatively to either of the HDM formats.

To us, you are right, to J6P, who HDM is trying to target, does not see it that way and the cost is a factor.

In reality how much it was doesn't matter because home video is a 40billion dollar business, anything they got was pennies to what warner could have lost if they picked a format likely to fail. Considering blu was selling 3:1, its really a no brainer where the cash cow was.

LOL

I'm sure there will be many deals/bargains to be had. That guy I'm not supposed to mention over at d i git a l bi ts. com (I seriously had a post deleted because I mentioned him!) said that he spoke with some people at the BDA and it really sounded like they're thinking seriously about providing some "peace offerings"/incentives to those who have HD-DVD equipment/media. Check out his site.

A really cool peace offering would be a PS3 update that supported the HD DVD format--lol.

Brian

and how long will that widget continue to make money when more and more things are stacked against it? If there's another widget that's making more..it would be the smart move to go that way.

btw, I'll still be buying Uni and Paramount titles, so I'll be kickin' some coin to your widget for a little while :)

really?

So MS should fold the Zune because Ipod has the bigger market share?

Sorry, as long as that widget makes the company money. It is staying. Again See Zune, Creative Zen, Mac's and all types of CE for that. Market share is king and as long as it is profitable for the market share it commands, it stays. Quite simple really.

Well retailers really don't have a lot of say in this. They are paid to stock items anyways. Most of them rent shelf space. So if studios want to sell movies, they'll keep paying the retailers to do so. If you think that retailers will drop Toshiba or suddenly discard HD DVD titles, you are in for a surprise.
Seriously, may I ask what your educational background is? Because it's obviously not in economics or retailing. The statement you made above is flat-out incorrect and inaccurate at best. Yes, some big warehouse retailers like Costco are paid by manufacturers to stock some items, but usually only temporarily. Most of the items for sale by any retailer are purchased direct from the manufacturer or distributor and then resold for a profit. The best way for the retailer to make a profit is for the consumer to buy the item, not have it subsidized to sit on a shelf by a manufacturer or studio.

Additionally, the tactic you describe above really worked well for Blockbuster, who only carries Blu-Ray, huh?

Please stop pulling pseudo-facts out of your ass.

really?

So MS should fold the Zune because Ipod has the bigger market share?

Sorry, as long as that widget makes the company money. It is staying. Again See Zune, Creative Zen, Mac's and all types of CE for that. Market share is king and as long as it is profitable for the market share it commands, it stays. Quite simple really.

it's not about the market share, it's about the content. It's not like you are locked out of listening to certain artists on your zune. without some major moves, having just Uni and Paramount isn't going to cut it..and they won't stay on a sinking ship.

Toshiba is in lah lah land. Warner has chosen the victor by switching to blu-ray. All is lost. I wouldn't care if I wasn't firmly convinced that hd-dvd was the better format. I'm selling most all of my media and keeping my player for a few movies. I'm tired of throwing money to these corporations. Toshiba and Sony are greedy for throwing money to the studios to get them to side with them and the studios are even greedier for taking it and alienating the other side by switching to neutrality (yeah, I'm talking about warner and paramount, who both should have remained neutral). I can't wait to finally own a player that will play everything. Even if it's blu-ray, I don't care, just make it one format already so I don't have to worry about owning a useless player in a year.

it's not about the market share, it's about the content. without some major moves, having just Uni and Paramount isn't going to cut it..and they won't stay on a sinking ship.

INCORRECT.

for the companies and license owners, it is INFACT about market share and profitablity. What makes a specific HMD format player ANY DIFFERENT than any other CE device out thier. Abso-positively nada.

INCORRECT.

for the companies and license owners, it is INFACT about market share and profitablity.

and if blu ray gains momentum, which it seemingly is, why wouldn't these be reasons for Universal and Paramount to at least go neutral?

Sorry, as long as that widget makes the company money. It is staying. Again See Zune, Creative Zen, Mac's and all types of CE for that. Market share is king and as long as it is profitable for the market share it commands, it stays. Quite simple really.

It isn't that simple. There's more to consider than simple immediate sales, at least for any company that's going to have a strong public image.

If your business logic were correct, Microsoft wouldn't be trying so hard to stop selling Windows XP.

No. The rumors are that both sides were offering Warner a lot to become exclusive.

The only official thing that has been published is Warner saying they didn't accept any incentives.

Some people keep mentioning it because it makes them feel better. At the same time they ignore the published and confirmed Paramount incentive. Anyway, they're welcome to hold on to that.
I think people keep denying it because it makes them feel better. Just like HD DVD fans denied there were Paramount incentives.
It's a bit more than a rumor. Insiders on both sides have either hinted or flat out said there were incentives and as much was published in the NYT.

Of course they were given huge incentives. It's rather silly to think otherwise. There's nothing wrong with it either, it's just business.

It's very amusing how you get the same exact reaction from both format camps when the tables are turned. One side denies a pay off and gloats - insisted the choice was based soley on the virtues of the format, the other side insists there was a pact with the devil, it's anti-consumer and threatens a class action lawsuit. This format war has as many wafflers as a freaking presidential race.

edit to add: and in both politics and consumer electronics - Press Releases aren't worth the paper they're printed on. We should all be well aware of this by now - and not just choose to think the releases we agree with, just happen to be the exception.

don....

"SD DVD looks like trash"

You really are of the opinion that SD-DVD looks like trash? I mean really? Trash?

really?

So MS should fold the Zune because Ipod has the bigger market share?

Sorry, as long as that widget makes the company money. It is staying. Again See Zune, Creative Zen, Mac's and all types of CE for that. Market share is king and as long as it is profitable for the market share it commands, it stays. Quite simple really.Horrible analogy.
MS, Creative, or any other portable mp3 manufacturer can never benefit from iPod sales.
Toshiba would at least benefit manufacturing players for a single HD format even if its not their own. Probably even more so than throwing more millions into a format with only 30% of future movie releases and potentially zero exclusive releases.

and if blu ray gains momentum, which it seemingly is, why wouldn't these be reasons for Universal and Paramount to at least go neutral?

they wouldn't but that is total speculation. What is not specualtion is that Universal and Sony are ummmm... not the best of chums.

I think that's gonna be a while as the a public at large has a large appetite for things that are both cheap and "good enough" like movies on SD DVD and music in the form of MP3 files.

it would probably shock people on this board but the public awareness of sacd and dvd-a is so abysmally low that the public awareness of it is probably about 5-10% of the general public.

hd dvd and blu-ray are doing much better than sacd and dvd-a, but that's not saying much. personally, i was at least partially motivated to get a cheap rca hd dvd player (for about $80 for a "like new" model off of ebay which included shipping) because i could get the 5-disc blade runner hd dvd for about $30 (whereas i could only get the 5-disc dvd set with the briefcase for about $50-$60).

effective cost of my hd dvd player to me is then very close to $50 (i get $30 of perceived benefit from the bladerunner 5-disc set). no real reason to jump ship now. also, i've got a lot of combo discs -- bourne ultimatum, jet li's fearless, children of men, hot fuzz, etc. the dvd side will play in a blu-ray player if i get one at a later date.

also, something everybody seems to not grasp is that to the general public they have no idea that blu-ray has been declared the victor in this war. after all, blu-ray has claimed victory so many times it is about as embarrassing as president bush's mission accomplished.

in the news today, blu-ray has declared victory. wait, didn't they declare victory six months ago, and a year ago, and two years ago (before any blu-ray players were even on the market)?

Toshiba is in lah lah land. Warner has chosen the victor by switching to blu-ray. All is lost. I wouldn't care if I wasn't firmly convinced that hd-dvd was the better format. I'm selling most all of my media and keeping my player for a few movies. I'm tired of throwing money to these corporations. Toshiba and Sony are greedy for throwing money to the studios to get them to side with them and the studios are even greedier for taking it and alienating the other side by switching to neutrality (yeah, I'm talking about warner and paramount, who both should have remained neutral). I can't wait to finally own a player that will play everything. Even if it's blu-ray, I don't care, just make it one format already so I don't have to worry about owning a useless player in a year.

Jules,

By the time your HD DVD player becomes truly "useless," both HD DVD and BD will be obsolete. I'm planning on keeping my HD DVD and BD players and buying exclusive content for both formats; I'll decide on a price/feature basis for releases that come out in both formats. I figure my HD DVD players will last at least 5-10 years, if my experience with SD DVD is anything to go by. By that time, 1080p will probably be like SD is to us and discs will be amusing antiquities.

:)

Brian

Oscar...

"You'd have to be seriously blind to not see the difference"

Not blind here. 60 inch Sony 60A3000. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. There is. Is that difference the same as VHS to DVD? No, it is not. DVD is pretty good. High def DVD better? Of course. Better enough that if I have to choose between a disk at 9.99 or buy the same move at 59.99 that I'll spend 59.99? NO. Better enough that I'll force myself to buy two different high def players and disk? NO.

I'm pretty sure that opinion is a fairly common opinion which is one reason why sales are not what the studios are looking for.
here here!!!!!

chad,

" why wouldn't these be reasons for Universal and Paramount to at least go neutral?"

I don't think there is neutral any more. If any of the HD-DVD studios move toward bluray my guess it will just be all the way bluray. Any move toward bluray by either HD-DVD studio's is the final admission hd-dvd has lost. You can still buy albums. I infact have a turntable. But having albums or companies making albums is hardly because they want to be format neutral. My guess is hd-dvd's will still be around. But they will not be a big factor. IMHO what neutral implies is probably no longer relevant.

It's very amusing how you get the same exact reaction from both format camps when the tables are turned. One side denies a pay off and gloats - insisted the choice was based soley on the virtues of the format, the other side insists there was a pact with the devil, it's anti-consumer and threatens a class action lawsuit.

It wouldn't surprise me for a second if the rumors and whispers turned out to be correct, and I wouldn't think there was anything wrong with it, particularly given everything else we've seen happen in this battle over the last year or two.

I'm just saying that the only official statement was Warners saying they didn't accept incentives. It's only been a couple of days - we may well hear something different soon.

The only thing that bothers me is that some people are stating it as fact, not supposition, and also making it seem like the BDA was the only side "resorting" to such tactics.

they wouldn't but that is total speculation. What is not specualtion is that Universal and Sony are ummmm... not the best of chums.

Sure, Universal certainly isn't going to go running to them. But in the end it's business and if there's profits to be made there, they'll go. I mean like I said I'm still looking at this from a pro-hd dvd view, but I think the writing is pretty much on the wall.

Horrible analogy.
MS, Creative, or any other portable mp3 manufacturer can never benefit from iPod sales.
Toshiba would at least benefit manufacturing players for a single HD format even if its not their own. Probably even more so than throwing more millions into a format with only 30% of future movie releases.

throwing millions... apparently you are unaware of how that capital expenditure HAPPENED (Past). The millions where already "thown" at HDDVD manufacturing, R&D etc. It cost toshiba nothing more than future allocation for that product but if it is profitable, it comes out of the product revenue and not capital expense.

All that is left is any revision updates which more than likely the software people, toshiba has, are on salary or if they contract out, are on a set contract (definetly no time and material for that type of updates).

as for the 30%, still at a substantial profit for toshiba ;)

Jules,

By the time your HD DVD player becomes truly "useless," both HD DVD and BD will be obsolete. I'm planning on keeping my HD DVD and BD players and buying exclusive content for both formats; I'll decide on a price/feature basis for releases that come out in both formats. I figure my HD DVD players will last at least 5-10 years, if my experience with SD DVD is anything to go by. By that time, 1080p will probably be like SD is to us and discs will be amusing antiquities.

:)

Brian

Bluray will be obsolete before it even comes out of Beta status.

Didn't Sony themselves just showcase a 4k TV? Wouldn't 1080p be only 1/4 of the resolution that set should display?

Within 5 years we will have the same issue we have now with DVDs. More resolution in the TV than any source can display.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

Where is rjdam when you need him? :D

willy,

"hd dvd and blu-ray are doing much better than sacd and dvd-a"

Isn't that in part due to the medium being disk based? The whole music industry has shifted, poor timing for sacd and dvd-a, regarding audio/music, away from disk to personal players, mp3's, etc. SACD and DVD-A sound great of course. But the market changed so quicly that even car makers now have aux jacks all over the place so you can plug in your iPod, etc. in your car.

I'd say you could make the case that SACD and DVD-A are victims of the bigger market switch then specifically related to their individual technologies. If that makes any sense.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

I can hardly wait for the "1080p is trash" posts to begin!

Brian

Bluray will be obsolete before it even comes out of Beta status.

Didn't Sony themselves just showcase a 4k TV? Wouldn't 1080p be only 1/4 of the resolution that set should display?

Within 5 years we will have the same issue we have now with DVDs. More resolution in the TV than any source can display.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

woah woah

I know 4K and that is D-Cinema stuff.

That also requires 10 Gbish worth of THROUGHPUT if they use Jpeg2000 compression. If they use the native TIFF that requires 100Gb worth of throughput. Not coming out of optical media ANY time soon.

willy,

"hd dvd and blu-ray are doing much better than sacd and dvd-a"

Isn't that in part due to the medium being disk based?

They were around since before MP3 et al became popular. My opinion is that there just aren't enough people out there who want anything more than decent stereo for their music. Luckily for a lot of CE companies, the same doesn't seem to hold true for home video.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

And this would hold true (it won't happen, though) whether HD-DVD or Blu-Ray comes out on top.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

The first BDR prototypes (yes, Blu-ray existed before HD-DVD) were publicly displayed in October 2000. Here we are in 2008. These things take time.

And this would hold true (it won't happen, though) whether HD-DVD or Blu-Ray comes out on top.

What is the fastest network stuff for home?

1Gb?

I know in the enterprise 100 Gb exist in fiber runs for sure. Nothing in copper yet that fast.

don....

"SD DVD looks like trash"

You really are of the opinion that SD-DVD looks like trash? I mean really? Trash?

On displays above 60" SD DVD absolutely looks bad, at least in comparison to HDM.

What did people think Toshiba were going to do? Both they and advocates of HD DVD would feel some form of grief reaction.

Shock and denial
Feelings of unreality, depersonalization, withdrawal, and an anesthetizing of affect. Unable to come to terms with what just occurred.


Volatile Reactions
"Whenever one's identity and social order face the possibility of destruction, there is a natural tendency to feel angry, frustrated, helpless, and/or hurt. The volatile reactions of terror, hatred, resentment, and jealousy are often experienced as emotional manifestations of these feelings." (see the article entitled The Grieving Process by Michael R. Leming and George E. Dickinson)


Disorganization and despair
These are the processes we normally associate with bereavement, the mourning and severe pain of being away from the loved person or situation.


Reorganization
Reorganization is the assimilation of the loss of something or someone and redefining of life and meaning without the deceased

brian,

Dang, my 60 inch TV is just trash I tell you, trash.....

Sharp to sell 108-inch LCD TV this year
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0632679620080106?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&rpc=22&sp=true

throwing millions... apparently you are unaware of how that capital expenditure HAPPENED (Past). The millions where already "thown" at HDDVD manufacturing, R&D etc. It cost toshiba nothing more than future allocation for that product but if it is profitable, it comes out of the product revenue and not capital expense.

All that is left is any revision updates which more than likely the software people, toshiba has, are on salary or if they contract out, are on a set contract (definetly no time and material for that type of updates).

as for the 30%, still at a substantial profit for toshiba ;)Im sure they'll be throwing millions just to keep that 30% exclusive to them lol.

Its either win the format war, or concede. Theres no 'lets just keep a minority market to ourselves.'
Im pretty sure the first exec to suggest that at a Toshiba meeting would get fired immedietly.

What is the fastest network stuff for home?

1Gb?

I know in the enterprise 100 Gb exist in fiber runs for sure. Nothing in copper yet that fast.

Gigabit is probably the most practical (meaning it doesn't cost a fortune to implement), fastest network speed available.

Additionally, there is no provision in the ATSC spec for anything higher than 1080 lines of resolution in video broadcasting. 4k is nice for video remastering and master archiving, but has little cost-benefit for the end user. It's going to be a long, long time (like 25+ years) before we see any 4k source material in widespread use.

Joseph,

"On displays above 60" SD DVD absolutely looks bad"

Sorry but can't buy into that. I have 60 inch and upscaled 1080P looks pretty good. Why even 720p and 1080i look pretty good.

HD better? Well of course. But HD being better does not then mean I am willing to say other stuff looks bad, trash, etc.

Im sure they'll be throwing millions just to keep that 30% exclusive to them lol.

Its either win the format war, or concede. Theres no 'lets just keep a minority market to ourselves.'
Im pretty sure the first exec to suggest that at a Toshiba is gonna get fired immedietly.

actually it is. This format war was made by the fanatics on both side.

To the company, it was never a "format war". It was, to establish a base to get royalty payments from licensee and then all they had to do was sit back and watch the check/s come in (BDA or the DVD group which encompasses HDDVD).

i do have a question.

if you have a friend. whos on the fence... how in the world could you recomend them a hd-dvd player at this point?

I know I couldb't I'd feel to guilty.

before it was 50-50. now its at leasst 70-30 hd-dvd will die if not greater.

now, i'm not saying recommend blu-ray... though some of the panny's annouced at ces could fit the bill.

But HD-DVD? I would not be a good friend

brian,

Dang, my 60 inch TV is just trash I tell you, trash.....

Sharp to sell 108-inch LCD TV this year
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0632679620080106?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&rpc=22&sp=true

I'm both envious and embarrassed for the person dumb and rich enough to buy a 108 inch LCD.

I think they should have brought out a 4k media format right from the start.. thus allowing for a long lifecycle.. instead.. we will all be quadruple dipping again in 5 years for the "next higher-high definition format".. Hopefully we won't have 2 that time.

Another thought: 4K won't be an issue unless we go up to huge displays. Just as it's hard to tell the difference between SD and HD on a 40" display (assuming they're both well mastered), it'll be hard to tell the difference between HD and 4x on anything less than a 70" display (I'm guessing...)

I have no plans to throw in the towel and claim my HD DVD player is junk. The main turn off to Blu-Ray for me has been their price and their inability to create a player under a single profile. And that is IMO what a typical user will find more attractive over the two. With a HD DVD player and HD DVD discs, you just buy one, lower cost generally for the software, and you are set. With BD players you have profiles to contend with which causes confusion.

Someone said it perfectly before...all that has happened now is I am more likely to buy a BD player sooner then later...that's it. There are not a ton of movies I want that are BD only. There are some sure...but not enough to make me go buy a BD player right now. They need to come down in price a lot both in hardware and software terms. My HD DVD player will still be my primary player for DVD and preferred format because I enjoy their quality and features more personally.


Actually, I wonder how much money BD actually will cost a typical consumer until the day comes, if ever, that BD settles on a profile and the need to upgrade your player constantly diminishes. Hell, I have a DVD player that I bought in 2000 that still plays DVDs just fine. Can the same be said for the ever changing BD players?

I wonder if Toshiba will still release HD-dvd players

I really wanted an HD-dvd dvr. I hope it still on the way.

I have no plans to throw in the towel and claim my HD DVD player is junk. The main turn off to Blu-Ray for me has been their price and their inability to create a player under a single profile. And that is IMO what a typical user will find more attractive over the two. With a HD DVD player and HD DVD discs, you just buy one, lower cost generally for the software, and you are set. With BD players you have profiles to contend with which causes confusion.

Someone said it perfectly before...all that has happened now is I am more likely to buy a BD player sooner then later...that's it. There are not a ton of movies I want that are BD only. There are some sure...but not enough to make me go buy a BD player right now. They need to come down in price a lot both in hardware and software terms. My HD DVD player will still be my primary player for DVD and preferred format because I enjoy their quality and features more personally. But I am at least open to the option of going Purple unlike some people who bought a PS3 a long time ago, then bought a more current BD player to keep up with the changing profile rather then get a HD DVD player as well to enjoy the movies for what they are. That is just not reasonable and a waste of cash.


Actually, I wonder how much money BD actually will cost a typical consumer until the day comes, if ever, that BD settles on a profile and the need to upgrade your player constantly diminishes. Hell, I have a DVD player that I bought in 2000 that still plays DVDs just fine. Can the same be said for the ever changing BD players?


umm the ps3 has kept up nicely with changing profiles.

and it appears the new disks should play on old players, just certain features wont work.

I wonder if Toshiba will still release HD-dvd players

I really wanted an HD-dvd dvr. I hope it still on the way.

players or recorders?

They already release players :)

Recorders, haven't seen one as of yet!

Another thought: 4K won't be an issue unless we go up to huge displays. Just as it's hard to tell the difference between SD and HD on a 40" display (assuming they're both well mastered), it'll be hard to tell the difference between HD and 4x on anything less than a 70" display (I'm guessing...)

Sony is showing an 82" 4K display at CES this year. Just one of those future products that we see from time to time.

How are you going to deliver an 8 million pixel format to the consumer cheaply?:confused:

don....

"SD DVD looks like trash"

You really are of the opinion that SD-DVD looks like trash? I mean really? Trash?

No that is not my view at all, I just used that title to flag the poster that made that statement.....Maybe HD is in turmoil right now......SD is ok with me until Blu quality and prices get to what I paid for my A2....I will continue to buy HD-DVD until the format is truly dead, and view upscaled SDand my HDs until Blu sorts it's specs, etc. out....I have a lot of THX mastered DVD's that look great, not Hi-Def, mind you, but viewable.....(Star Wars comes to mind).....I hope this clears up my position...

Don

op,

"how in the world could you recomend them a hd-dvd player at this point?"

I don't think you can. But at the same time I wouldn't recommend anyone buy any particular technology. You point them to the information and they have to decide.

Well, as they always say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I can say that about HD DVD, just because Blu-ray may have more movies on that shelf, it doesn't mean that HD DVD is broken, if you have a working player, and have a selection of movies to make it worth it, go for it. It may still have some chance to do some good for you. That's what I say.

umm the ps3 has kept up nicely with changing profiles.

and it appears the new disks should play on old players, just certain features wont work.

Cool...so to alleviate the problems I presented with BD you must:

1. Buy a PS3 and not a stand alone player.
2. Live without your discs fully working with all their features.

^^^^ That is why I have avoided BD till they get their poop in a group. Right now, it is just totally unappealing to me.

I'm not having a go at you...I'm just saying...that solution leaves a lot to be desired.

man I really hoped Microsoft would have released the Ultimate 360.

The chances of getting a 360 that supports HDMi 1.1 and HD audio codecs For HD DVD is pretty damn slim now.

I wonder if Toshiba will still release HD-dvd players


Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks, will continue to release HD DVDs until at least early 2009. Whatever blu people say, HD DVD is still there for the moment, and who knows what will happen in 2008... So to answer your question, I guess we'll see at least one next gen of HD DVD players.

What I'm seeing in all of this is that the whole HDM market is driven by MFG's of the technology paying studios to be exclusive. That is the market right now, not actually selling low-volume movies. The amounts of money paid to these studios greatly trumps whatever profit they were getting from actually selling movies. In the end imo the HW was close enough to be a stalemate and in the end Sony was able to put more cash on the table then Toshiba. That is how it goes sometimes, Sony had so much more at stake that in the end they threw the most money on the table, pretty logical ending. Now I await a $200 BR player and enjoy what I have for now and the longer it lasts the better the chances of a $200 BR palyer then. I'll live with HD DVD and greatly improved HD offerings from Direct TV for now, in fact DTV's HD offerings have blurred the game a bit for me in whole.

Why are there so many BR's coming out using Mpeg2 still? Doesn't that negate the disk capacity advantage?

Yep, and the message is clear: BOGO's DO WELL! You seriously expect BD sales to continue at this rate when each "Potter" BD costs $19.95 instead of half that via BOGOS? :rolleyes:

Look again: The Blu-ray numbers didn't go up, which would indicate a BOGO surge, but rather held their own while the HD DVD numbers went down, which indicates a lack of confidence in the red format.

Not that I'm condoning it, but hd-dvd needs to get the multi billion dollar porn industry exclusively! That would be their ticket!

Why are there so many BR's coming out using Mpeg2 still? Doesn't that negate the disk capacity advantage?

That's taking advantage of the disk capacity advantage. They're able to raise the resolution and lower the compression level without starting from scratch with a new encode. An MPEG2 at a high bitrate should (theoretically) be equivalent to MPEG4/VC-1 at a lower bitrate.

Anyway, what BR's have come out using MPEG2 lately??

Sony is showing an 82" 4K display at CES this year. Just one of those future products that we see from time to time.

How are you going to deliver an 8 million pixel format to the consumer cheaply?:confused:

Not now, but it works like everthing else. The ultra rich pay for the 5 dozen or so units they make on a trial run, netting 10mill+ for the manufacturer, which in turn is enough to allow them to continue to develop more stuff while the technology migrates to cheaper displays that are only $20k, which eventually migrates to the sub $5k sets, and finally to the sub $1000 displays at some point in the future. I believe Meryll Streep explained the same thing before in The Devil Wears Prada when she commented on the Cerulean Blu sweater. :D

I'm both envious and embarrassed for the person dumb and rich enough to buy a 108 inch LCD.

why? There are people that own hundreds of 100K exotic cars. To rich people making millions a year, its just a drop in the bucket.

Sony is showing an 82" 4K display at CES this year. Just one of those future products that we see from time to time.

How are you going to deliver an 8 million pixel format to the consumer cheaply?:confused:

Holographic storage? 8-layer BDR? Bring back Laserdiscs?? :D

Personally I hope Toshiba and it's HD-DVD partners continue to push HD-DVD - it will help push the BDA members to release resonably priced dedicated Profile 2.0 players earlier. Without HD-DVD competions I don't see Profile 2.0 players being affordable for a long time.

i am having a hard time swallowing HD-DVD losing. I am just not a fan of Sony. I do believe this to be the nail in the coffin. I do not see this has a good thing for the consumer.

Not that I'm condoning it, but hd-dvd needs to get the multi billion dollar porn industry exclusively! That would be their ticket!

Did you come to that conclusion all on your own, or through exhaustive research?

Porn will not save any format nowadays. The Internet is already full of free and cheap porn.

I wonder how many of the 1 million HDDVD players were bought by consumers who also own a BR player? Even if Toshiba throws in the towel tomorrow, you are going to have a signifiant number of disgruntled consumers - many of whom just bought their HDDVD player!

Anyone who purchased a BR or HD DVD player is an early adopter. You should know going in that one of the formats may go t*ts up. So, I really don't think people can be disgruntled about it. I'll keep my A2 and HD DVDs for a long time even if the format is phased out this year.

Many of Universal's films are from the silent era. If you look at films from 1940 to date...they are nowhere near the biggest studio. WB is by far the biggest fish in the HD pond.

I think Paramount/Dreamworks and Universal account for about 25%-30% of the potential HD market. Still big enough to make real movie lovers buy into both formats, but I don't think it is big enough to lead HD DVD to mass consumer adoption at this point.

It is this that makes me sick to my stomach. If they choose to, now Universal and Paramount can kill the HD market. I can't see that happening though.

Here's what should happen-
Universal, Paramount, MS and Toshiba should work a back door deal with the BDA which allows them to save face by moving to BD (some of those famous "marketing agreemtents" will do) and receiviig some representation in the BDA, with all involved agreeing to shoulder some of the financial burden to customers by trading in their HD players for credit on a Toshiba BD players (and maybe a BD add-on for Xbox)and by trading (non-combo) HD DVDs for BDs.

Why are there so many BR's coming out using Mpeg2 still? Doesn't that negate the disk capacity advantage?

I guess you haven't been looking closely at what's been coming out. You can check here:
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

Q4 2007:
MPEG2 - 5 titles (4.5%)
AVC - 70 titles (62.5%)
VC-1 - 37 titles (33.0%)

Anyone who purchased a BR or HD DVD player is an early adopter.

I don't agree that everyone knew that - do you really think Amazon, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, Walmart etc let the 'unsuspecting' public know that there was a format war? Not everyone who bought into HD-DVD or Blu-Ray knew there was a war - and I bet many still don't or that there has been a major shift in studio support.

i am having a hard time swallowing HD-DVD losing. I am just not a fan of Sony. I do believe this to be the nail in the coffin. I do not see this has a good thing for the consumer.

You've let your personal feelings for one company cloud your judgment on the overall picture. I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft as a company, but that doesn't stop me from both using and recommending their products daily.

I guess you haven't been looking closely at what's been coming out. You can check here:
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

Q4 2007:
MPEG2 - 5 titles (4.5%)
AVC - 70 titles (62.5%)
VC-1 - 37 titles (33.0%)

Better check the Fox 2008 Q1 announcement concerning the use of MPEG2 for encoding. I believe all the new titles will use it.

Very amusing....but he's paid to do damage control. DId anyone expect him to say.."We give up" ???

No, but since they are on the inside and we are not, I would have to believe if it was as grim as we think it is, he would have hinted that HD-DVD's future was more bleak than expected. As far as any of us know, Paramount and Universal will stay HD-DVD and though Blu-Ray may be bigger and sale more, there would still be a stalemate of sorts. And though I don't profess to be an expert in any of this, I have to believe that there's competition between these studios and this competition may separate Universal and Paramount from the others.

Then again, 2 weeks after CES when these execs are back in the comfort of the privacy of their own offices, I wouldn't be shocked if Universal and or Paramount announce BD only. And yet again, I wouldn't be surprised if they stayed HD-DVD, either. Who really knows the hidden agendas of corporate America?

Better check the Fox 2008 Q1 announcement concerning the use of MPEG2 for encoding. I believe all the new titles will use it.

Is that true? Very surprising! They must be really far behind on their encoding processes (or they really wanted to save a few bucks...)

Cool...so to alleviate the problems I presented with BD you must:

1. Buy a PS3 and not a stand alone player.
2. Live without your discs fully working with all their features.

^^^^ That is why I have avoided BD till they get their poop in a group. Right now, it is just totally unappealing to me.

I'm not having a go at you...I'm just saying...that solution leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree. HD DVD has the best specs in a standalone with superb up-converting quality at the best price. BD standalones just have too many profile changes and I will not consider any of them until the BD specs are finalized with the latest Profile which maybe beyond 2.0.

As much as the BD fans/group are saying the "War is Over" think again, it has just started; Let the Games Begin. :D Warner moving to BD has only loss my business just like any other BD only Studio.

...Angelo

We all know Toshiba wouldn't talk bad about their own format, but here are the facts:

In the 48 hours since the WB announcement, sales on Amazon have tanked for HD-DVD. Nothing has changed regarding the availability of HD-DVD titles in those 48 hours, but consumer confidence in HD-DVD is rapidly disappearing.

Now repeat this scenario for all other retailers: Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City, Frys, etc.

HD-DVD sales will be a fraction of what they once were, just because of the announcement alone. That will drive a self-fulfilling downward spiral: less sales, less retail support, less consumer support---> even less sales...rinse, repeat, until HD-DVD is barely holding onto 10-20% of the HDM market.

Times are certainly bleak, but I'll hold off until HD-DVD comes out with a formal response regarding strategy forward to determine in my mind whether it is the end of the road. I'd rather they take their time and use measured steps than read a bunch of bluster and hyperbole. I believe there is still a chance for HD-DVD to weather the storm, primarily because Sony continues to drop the ball (e.g., specs, pricing) whenever they proclaim or are seemingly handed a victory. The question is whether Toshiba, Universal, and Paramount are up to the fight. If they are, I'm up to it as well.

Better check the Fox 2008 Q1 announcement concerning the use of MPEG2 for encoding. I believe all the new titles will use it.

I think it's pretty obvious that this is a mistake.

You won't have long to wait to find out.

Even if it's MPEG-2, with that much bandwidth Independence Day will still be a reference title.

As much as the BD fans/group are saying the "War is Over" think again, it has just started;

Umm, no, even the pro-HD DVD insiders acknowledge that the war is over.

Better check the Fox 2008 Q1 announcement concerning the use of MPEG2 for encoding. I believe all the new titles will use it.
Well, you would be incorrect (not the first time that has happened).

Sunshine - MPEG4 AVC (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1220/sunshine.html)

Master & Commander - MPEG4 AVC (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/605/masterandcommander.html)

I Robot - MPEG4 AVC (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/613/irobot.html)

We need to sticky a link to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

I think it's pretty obvious that this is a mistake.

You won't have long to wait to find out.

Even if it's MPEG-2, with that much bandwidth Independence Day will still be a reference title.

... :eek: ...

Who really knows the hidden agendas of corporate America?

No hidden agenda - make money, make money, make money! Tactics to achieve this may be kept confidential, but the goal is quite clear.

Why do you think there were two HDM formats in the first place? For the royalty/patent income streams!