Again, the island is gaining more and more people.

"I compared a number of Blu-ray discs and HD cable fare with the two displays side by side. Both panels produced excellent images. However, the Pioneer’s anti-reflective screen coating proved more effective than the one Panasonic employs, in reducing in-room reflections. The extra effectiveness came at a cost; it adds a purple-reddish tint to the image that was clearly seen with both displays side by side. Calibration was not a solution; it is the nature of the KURO panel

Seems you read just what you wanted to read....and ignored the rest.

Now that I've destroyed your arguement that the current Panny is as good as the 9G Kuro, except to you, but unsupported by ANYONE ELSE, you revert back to using an unreleased set to make your point. An unreleased set is immaterial to what the best set is RIGHT NOW.

Alright, so where's the folks who went to Bjorn's and have seen this bad boy in action!

I visited Bjorns, yesterday and this is what i felt;

As stated they were running a loop broadcast that showed animation, games and a few location sense. When asked if they could connect a blu-ray or just run regular HD content, they would not, told us we needed to return next week and ask Bjorn to do so. Per the Mits reps, the set in the van and the one in Bjorns were the first two off the warehouse floor, they flew them stright from the factory.

Now to the tv itself:

1. I set through the demo in the van, they talked alot about colors and the laser lasting the life of the tv. The ran some 3d that was outstaing using some new 3d glasses that they were not able to give the company name yet.

2. I then took a look at the Mits,Sharp and Kuro side by side. The Kuro had the best blacks by far sometimes it seemed to wash out the picture. I saw what they ment by the deeper color on the Mits, then again without having the set calibrated or at a minimum runnning regular broadcast its have to choose a winner. Side views were great no wash out or fade in the picture. The tv looks great, but without being able to tinker with setting I dont know at this point.

3. Although this is out of my price range..I will follow up after I have had a chance to get Bjorn to do some real world testing next week.

Originally posted by haywardw:
1. I set through the demo in the van, they talked alot about colors and the laser lasting the life of the tv. The ran some 3d that was outstaing using some new 3d glasses that they were not able to give the company name yet.

They were NVidia prototypes, one of them let it slip out and the other one stopped him when I was asking. Egrady and I made some observations on page 74 if anyone else is looking.

They were NVidia prototypes, one of them let it slip out and the other one stopped him when I was asking. Egrady and I made some observations on page 74 if anyone else is looking.

Thank You, I liked them very much.

BeachComber....come now, why do you need to justify your purchase?
Just be happy with it, it's a great plasma.
Not as good as the 9G Elites though.



I know this has been stated but what is the depth on these Laservue sets?

Thank You, I liked them very much.

Was a purchase price discussed?

Changeling

Egrady and I made some observations on page 74 if anyone else is looking.

FYI: Page numbers are useless in a forum as they're dependent upon user settings. This post is on page 38 for me and don't think I can travel into the future to find page 74.

Got a chance to see Laservue Technology today. Let me say this, it makes all other display technologies look washed out by comparison. Boy the colors are so deep and so rich its just amazing. The blacks are deep and the whites are pure whites, the picture is sharp, the viewing angles are best of seen on any RPTV. I have never seen a display technology with the colors of the Mits Laservue display. Its the best RPTV technology ever. However, that's the downside. Being a RPTV it has the infamous silk screen effect which I find objectional. Also, at hefy price tag for 65 incher (7K) I don't know what Mits is thinking in terms long range plans for the success of Laservue technology, considering the fact the RPTV market is almost completely dead.

I wish there was a way this technology could be implemental as a flat panel because I can tell you right now, this not your daddy's TV technology, this is new technology (as far TV's are concern) and a good technology at that.

I think Laservue is really headed to the Front Projection market, where it should put to rest, DLP, LCOS, LCD all that other mess that doesn't compare to Laservue.

Is the laservue the best rear projection set ever made? How would its shadow detail compare to the best that SXRD ever offered?

At 7K if its not the best rear projection set ever made then who cares?

If the laservue is rear projection's last stand how long will that stand last?

Will it still be around three years from now?

I was there too, but I have some different conclusions. It's amazing how different people see different things.

1. I saw the settings in both the "Natural" and "Brilliant" modes. When the three sets were side-by-side (Sharp, Mits, Kuro), they went bright, medium, dark when in "Natural" mode. The brilliant modes improved the blacks and whites and the brightness of the Sharp was less noticable. I thought they were going for Goldie Locks and the Three Bears, "this one is just right" portrayal. I don’t know why they wouldn’t switch it back to “Natural” for you, they did it no problem for me.

2. I didn’t notice a screen crawl, but I wasn’t looking for it. That’s one of the reasons I don’t like this forum. We tend to be so picky we can’t enjoy anything and can only find what’s missing, not what’s there.

3. The white looked whiter than the Kuro to me and the black had more detail out of the box; maybe because I saw both modes. I did not feel that way until I saw the Samurai scene and saw the black and shadow details missing on the other two sets. The Kuro had blacker blacks. I wish I would have remembered my camera. I also noticed more crowd details in the background on the High School Musical scene and one scene on Madagascar looked much better.

4. I felt the extra color was significant, but maybe because I like vibrant colors. The reds were redder, the yellow sun is Spore was great, way more yellow than the other two sets. The gold in the Samurai looked much better too and the shadow detail was more obvious.

5. My conclusion is this. It’s a nice set, but not worth 3 times the street price of the 65835. I will most likely pick one up when the second gen comes out with DC5 and the price becomes reasonable. I was also impressed by the 3D demo, (more than I thought I would be), and the new Nvidia prototype 3D glasses. That was on the LaserVue as well. The off axis was very good in both 3D and non-3D.

On a different note, the demise of RPTV was debunked by the Mits reps. They are getting ready to release all new models next year.

LowellG, this sir was a great review with what you had to deal with/view (witch was very little). I had been waiting to hear something concerning these new sets from an honest reviewer but didn't actually expect it here after listening to the "Plasma Lovers" feud over what they love the best, however you really surprised me, congratulations.
I really look forward to reading more of your thinking and reviews when you are able to get a little more close up and personal with this new technology/set.

I especially liked your viewpoint on there pricing strategy (#5. Your conclusion ), I couldn't agree more !
Overall, one couldn't ask for a better review with being basically a spectator, but obviously, a very experienced one. Well done sir!


To the other reviewer who thinks it should have been a "Plasma" evidently!
That is very evident in your continued attacks on viewing the "Laser View" in a trailer for xx minutes without any way of interaction, in other words you were a "seat" in a viewing audience, but automatically you know everything that is wrong.
After reading through this posting and trying to gain insight on the Laser View I would sum up your contribution as "0", not to mention the individuals who seem to think you are some sort of TV guru! However I would give (yawl) a +10 on confusing the heck out of most individuals that came to this specific forum for information on the new Laser View from Mitsubishi.
The absolute summation of your input to this forum topic is "0", and I'm trying to be nice, whoops, I almost forgot to ask, was the color (the set) of the set OK with you.:)
Changeling

Is the laservue the best rear projection set ever made? How would its shadow detail compare to the best that SXRD ever offered?

At 7K if its not the best rear projection set ever made then who cares?

If the laservue is rear projection's last stand how long will that stand last?

Will it still be around three years from now?

I don't mean this as an insult, but the SXRD is no where near Laservue. The dark scenes I watched from Pirates of the Carribean, shadow detail was great along with deep blacks.

I really see this technology being best used in the front projection market because RPTV market is dead.

Again, the island is gaining more and more people.

"I compared a number of Blu-ray discs and HD cable fare with the two displays side by side. Both panels produced excellent images. However, the Pioneer’s anti-reflective screen coating proved more effective than the one Panasonic employs, in reducing in-room reflections. The extra effectiveness came at a cost; it adds a purple-reddish tint to the image that was clearly seen with both displays side by side. Calibration was not a solution; it is the nature of the KURO panel

Seems you read just what you wanted to read....and ignored the rest.That was for the non-elite, which has a different color filter. The 111 that was review Bright lighting: We don't mean to pile it on, but we've always considered Pioneer's antireflective screen the best available on any plasma, and the PRO-111FD is no exception. With the room lights up and window shades open, it attenuated reflections very well, making them dimmer than any display in our comparison. It also maintained a deep black level in bright rooms almost as well as the shiny-screened Samsung LCDs.That is directly from the 111 review. I can ALWAYS post straight information for you if you want it.

i dont get it , one says deep blacks , rich shadow detail. Someone else says blacks were not deep. Mitsubishi needs to give the tv to sound and vision , home theater mag , and ultimate av mag for a real evaluation.

Having shadow detail has little to do with how black the blacks are. It has everything to do with low level luminance response. Hopefully the sets will have some flexibility in adjusting gamma at multiple levels. Maybe with the new technology Mitsubishi will implement some adjustability.

Having shadow detail has little to do with how black the blacks are. It has everything to do with low level luminance response. Hopefully the sets will have some flexibility in adjusting gamma at multiple levels. Maybe with the new technology Mitsubishi will implement some adjustability.Agreed completely. Speaking objectively, I don't know how they could have better shadow detail than the elite kuros unless they have a hump in the bottom of the gamma curve (like the non-elite kuros).

i dont get it , one says deep blacks , rich shadow detail. Someone else says blacks were not deep. Mitsubishi needs to give the tv to sound and vision , home theater mag , and ultimate av mag for a real evaluation.

Wait until you see it for yourself. You will agree with me.

Check this out. This an excerpt from NY Times article of Laservue. His impressions match mine.http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/mitsubishis-new-laservue-tvs-first-impressions/

"One immediate impact: with a laser light engine, colors don’t look so much as if they’re painted on the screen as if they’re shooting out from it. Colors are alive and vibrant in a way that mimics the brightness of neon light, or a large advertising transparency being illuminated from behind in a light box. The company also says that their laser TVs produce twice as many colors as any traditional TV technology. Indeed, many colors on the plasma and especially on the L.C.D. sets were washed out and dull, while their laser counterparts were vibrant, without looking overblown. The picture looks much like a giant version of the images produced by Sony’s superb but tiny OLED HDTV screens."

Having seen OLED today, I fully concur.

Another excerpt.

It was hard to judge picture and sound quality at the event because there weren't any competitor models around, but the video we watched looked pretty good with deep, dark blacks and rich color. The color might have looked oversaturated at points, but this was probably Mitsubishi tuning their TVs to show off the wide color gamut, which the company claims is a selling point for these sets over plasma and LCD technology

From what I've seen, the above is true.

Yet another: http://gizmodo.com/376852/mitsubishi-kuro+killer-laservue-tv-arriving-late-summer-new-best-tv-ever



"Mitsubishi's Laser TV stunned us back at CES (though the booze-filled nightclub filled with half-naked dancing girls might have skewed our, um, vision). Apparently, it's gotten even better, like better than the best TV on earth better. HD Guru says that the LaserVue set popped colors that were "the most vivid of any display device I had ever seen" besting a Pioneer Kuro and Sharp LCD in a side-by-side, while consuming only half the power of an LCD set".

Again, I seen this set, and I'm usually a skeptic, but the above is true.

Vivid colors are often oversaturated and not correct colors. Intermediate colors may or may not be correct. Until we have some calibrated sets to evaluate, all of these assessments are vague and really don't inform.

Sorry, your Panny 800 is not on the same level as the 9G Elites, very nice plasma though and almost anyone would be thrilled with one.

As far as specualtion on a brief viewing with no calibration and OTB settings is useless.
Soon enough we'll know what the real deal is.....hoping for the best.

Pay this man no mind. The Kuro is the most overrated TV in the history of display technology.

Vivid colors are often oversaturated and not correct colors. Intermediate colors may or may not be correct. Until we have some calibrated sets to evaluate, all of these assessments are vague and really don't inform.

I agree, but when you calibrate one, you're going to come back agreeing that colors are vastly superior to the Kuro and makes it look dull by comparison.

Got a chance to see Laservue Technology today. Let me say this, it makes all other display technologies look washed out by comparison. Boy the colors are so deep and so rich its just amazing. The blacks are deep and the whites are pure whites, the picture is sharp, the viewing angles are best of seen on any RPTV. I have never seen a display technology with the colors of the Mits Laservue display. Its the best RPTV technology ever. However, that's the downside. Being a RPTV it has the infamous silk screen effect which I find objectional. Also, at hefy price tag for 65 incher (7K) I don't know what Mits is thinking in terms long range plans for the success of Laservue technology, considering the fact the RPTV market is almost completely dead.

I wish there was a way this technology could be implemental as a flat panel because I can tell you right now, this not your daddy's TV technology, this is new technology (as far TV's are concern) and a good technology at that.

I think Laservue is really headed to the Front Projection market, where it should put to rest, DLP, LCOS, LCD all that other mess that doesn't compare to Laservue.

Isn't Laservue a DLP set?

Have you calibrated one? Do you have something other than subjective analysis to base this opinion upon? Frankly, I rather doubt that properly calibrated it will be such a big difference, as neither should appear dull, nor should they be so different, unless you cannot get the Mitsubishi to calibrate properly. That would not be such a surprise, considering the past products.

I saw the LaserVue today with my own eyes and it was outstanding as I expected on theoretical grounds. I viewed it properly set up and in a proper environment with outstanding source material. I took along with me a hand full top rated BluRay DVDs(THOSE RATED IN THE TOP 10 ON THIS SITE).
I spoke at length with the store manager, raising a number technical issues like factory calibration etc. This manager, BTW had just recently attended a Mits orientation Seminar focused on this particular TV. In any case, regarding calibration of the TV, he confirmed, as I surmised theoretically, that this TV, not only was properly calibrated out the box, it also is characterized by a lifelong robustness of calibation. This is something we have not seen before in any technology. Thoughtful ones among you will be able to envision that if you have a non drifting source with perfectly fixed discrete wavelengths, there is no way for the calibration to change over time. Also this manager pointed out that one of their main points of focus has always been the color performance, which includes its much larger Gamut. I think you can imagine that you don't get to speak intelligently about Color Space Gamut if you don't understand a relatively simple thing like setting the proper white point.
I made sure to watch this TV at the proper distance for a 65" 1080P set, with best available material. I had the manager set the TV WB to 6500 deg K and natural mode and it was awesome. Being an old optics guy myself, I can assure you I am qualified to comment intelligently on this TV. One final point, I noticed that Mits has made sure to place this product up front and center in the Midst of some highly rated Plasma and LCD Flats. Trust me, it belongs there.
Let's start that Color Theory Thread.

Isn't Laservue a DLP set?


Yes it is a DLP, one with a native contrast ratio of 4000:1, and by the sound of it overblown colors, dither noise / laser sparkle and probably SSE as well. Not the sort of display that I would have any interest in even if it was dirt cheap.

Hopefully the Pioneer-Panasonic joint venture will yield an 80” Plasma with true blacks and no other “issues” in late 2009, I’m not holding my breath. As it stands there is nothing out there for people in the market for a high end BIG screen TV, 60”- 65” is too small, back to waiting for me.

I saw the LaserVue today with my own eyes and it was outstanding as I expected on theoretical grounds. I viewed it properly set up and in a proper environment with outstanding source material. I took along with me a hand full top rated BluRay DVDs(THOSE RATED IN THE TOP 10 ON THIS SITE).
I spoke at length with the store manager, raising a number technical issues like factory calibration etc. This manager, BTW had just recently attended a Mits orientation Seminar focused on this particular TV. In any case, regarding calibration of the TV, he confirmed, as I surmised theoretically, that this TV, not only was properly calibrated out the box, it also is characterized by a lifelong robustness of calibation. This is something we have not seen before in any technology. Thoughtful ones among you will be able to envision that if you have a non drifting source with perfectly fixed discrete wavelengths, there is no way for the calibration to change over time. Also this manager pointed out that one of their main points of focus has always been the color performance, which includes its much larger Gamut. I think you can imagine that you don't get to speak intelligently about Color Space Gamut if you don't understand a relatively simple thing like setting the proper white point.
I made sure to watch this TV at the proper distance for a 65" 1080P set, with best available material. I had the manager set the TV WB to 6500 deg K and natural mode and it was awesome. Being an old optics guy myself, I can assure you I am qualified to comment intelligently on this TV. One final point, I noticed that Mits has made sure to place this product up front and center in the Midst of some highly rated Plasma and LCD Flats. Trust me, it belongs there.
Let's start that Color Theory Thread.

I'm happy to hear this. As I've made very clear, the conditions I saw the set under were terrible and gave no indication as to what the set could actually do. Now I'm really looking forward to Monday!

I spoke at length with the store manager, raising a number technical issues like factory calibration etc. This manager, BTW had just recently attended a Mits orientation Seminar focused on this particular TV. In any case, regarding calibration of the TV, he confirmed, as I surmised theoretically, that this TV, not only was properly calibrated out the box, it also is characterized by a lifelong robustness of calibation. This is something we have not seen before in any technology. Thoughtful ones among you will be able to envision that if you have a non drifting source with perfectly fixed discrete wavelengths, there is no way for the calibration to change over time. Also this manager pointed out that one of their main points of focus has always been the color performance, which includes its much larger Gamut. I think you can imagine that you don't get to speak intelligently about Color Space Gamut if you don't understand a relatively simple thing like setting the proper white point.
I made sure to watch this TV at the proper distance for a 65" 1080P set, with best available material. I had the manager set the TV WB to 6500 deg K and natural mode and it was awesome. Being an old optics guy myself, I can assure you I am qualified to comment intelligently on this TV. One final point, I noticed that Mits has made sure to place this product up front and center in the Midst of some highly rated Plasma and LCD Flats. Trust me, it belongs there.
Let's start that Color Theory Thread.

Color Gamut has nothing what ever to do with white point or grey scale. You can have perfect 6500k grey scale and a gamut so fare off it makes the set unusable for quality viewing. You need accurate gamut to then REC-709 standard for accurate color presentation, wide gamut is out.

As for the need for future calibration, well unless the Red, Green and Blue lasers all age at exactly the same rate there will be a need for calibration over time. As far as I know the dissimilar aging characteristics of the different color lasers has been a significant problem and I seriously doubt it has been eliminated.

Unless the Mitsubishi has been viewed in the dark with suitably dark video content, no useful assessment of black level is possible, bright video content always makes blacks look good, especially on a bright display.


The talk of “better shadow detail” has me amused, shadow detail is controlled by system gamma, more is NOT better. Gamma is either accurate or it is not, and unless you have a calibrated reference monitor to compare against you can have no idea what is correct.

I saw the LaserVue today with my own eyes and it was outstanding as I expected on theoretical grounds. I viewed it properly set up and in a proper environment with outstanding source material. I took along with me a hand full top rated BluRay DVDs(THOSE RATED IN THE TOP 10 ON THIS SITE).
I spoke at length with the store manager, raising a number technical issues like factory calibration etc. This manager, BTW had just recently attended a Mits orientation Seminar focused on this particular TV. In any case, regarding calibration of the TV, he confirmed, as I surmised theoretically, that this TV, not only was properly calibrated out the box, it also is characterized by a lifelong robustness of calibation. This is something we have not seen before in any technology. Thoughtful ones among you will be able to envision that if you have a non drifting source with perfectly fixed discrete wavelengths, there is no way for the calibration to change over time. Also this manager pointed out that one of their main points of focus has always been the color performance, which includes its much larger Gamut. I think you can imagine that you don't get to speak intelligently about Color Space Gamut if you don't understand a relatively simple thing like setting the proper white point.
I made sure to watch this TV at the proper distance for a 65" 1080P set, with best available material. I had the manager set the TV WB to 6500 deg K and natural mode and it was awesome. Being an old optics guy myself, I can assure you I am qualified to comment intelligently on this TV. One final point, I noticed that Mits has made sure to place this product up front and center in the Midst of some highly rated Plasma and LCD Flats. Trust me, it belongs there.
Let's start that Color Theory Thread.

Anyone can discuss anything with little pre-requisite knowledge. Just saying a set has a larger gamut says nothing about proper reproduction of color. Having the proper gamut for the source, and decoding the color properly, while maintaing the approriate white point with good gray scale tracking is the start for accurate color. Just because a salesman says so does not mean that the sets are well calibrated out of the box. Mitsubishi has claimed this before. When I, or one of many objective calibration specialists get hands on one we will see. As for maintaining perfect calibration over time, that depends on lots of variables. Considdering that Mitsubishi has not even been able to buy caps that will last more than a few years, I will be very surprised with that kind of precision.

Wishing and hoping that pie in the sky claims are true does not make them so.

As I have said many times here, healthy skepticism is in order and time will tell. Fortunately for Mitsubishi, there are enough believers that the initial production should sell through quickly.

Is it actually for sale now ??

What about motion blur? Did the set look clear in scenes with alot of motion?
Plasmas are the highest rated for motion resolution around 900 lines out of 1080. Did the reps mention any thing about 120hz on the laservue at all?


Owen , good call on an 80 inch plasma panel. Id like one also.

Originally posted by Changeling:
Was a purchase price discussed?

Ref, NVidia 3D glasses. No price was discussed, infact the one rep was upset because NVidia hasn't even announced them yet and Mits was not supposed to discuss them until NVidia's press release. They were charged by a USB connection and alternated each eye at 60Hz. They did not give headaches like the old throw away ones.

Originally posted by Changeling:
LowellG, this sir was a great review with what you had to deal with/view (witch was very little). I had been waiting to hear something concerning these new sets from an honest reviewer but didn't actually expect it here after listening to the "Plasma Lovers" feud over what they love the best, however you really surprised me, congratulations.
I really look forward to reading more of your thinking and reviews when you are able to get a little more close up and personal with this new technology/set.

I especially liked your viewpoint on there pricing strategy (#5. Your conclusion ), I couldn't agree more !
Overall, one couldn't ask for a better review with being basically a spectator, but obviously, a very experienced one. Well done sir!

Thank you, I am really don't favor one tech or the other, I am a best bang for the buck person. I am also really trying to learn to appreciate what is there instead of what isn't there. The upgrade bug will kill you if you let it. :)

I am out of town right now, but I will be going back for a second look to see other material in it and maybe multiple calibrated models. I was asking them to place it next to one of the XX635 models, we will see if they do it. It's an attractive set, however, the placed the IR sensor right in the middle bottom making it difficult to put a CC speaker in front. The base only takes up 12.5", so a CC would fit perfectly. You can plug in an alt IR sensor, so not a huge issue. Maybe the next gen will put the IR in the whole screen like the XX835s. I think they should ultimately make LaserVue replace their Diamond line to clearly seperate the RPTV models.

Color Gamut has nothing what ever to do with white point or grey scale. You can have perfect 6500k grey scale and a gamut so fare off it makes the set unusable for quality viewing. You need accurate gamut to then REC-709 standard for accurate color presentation, wide gamut is out.

As for the need for future calibration, well unless the Red, Green and Blue lasers all age at exactly the same rate there will be a need for calibration over time. As far as I know the dissimilar aging characteristics of the different color lasers has been a significant problem and I seriously doubt it has been eliminated.

Unless the Mitsubishi has been viewed in the dark with suitably dark video content, no useful assessment of black level is possible, bright video content always makes blacks look good, especially on a bright display.


The talk of “better shadow detail” has me amused, shadow detail is controlled by system gamma, more is NOT better. Gamma is either accurate or it is not, and unless you have a calibrated reference monitor to compare against you can have no idea what is correct.

Owen, when you make statements like these, you need to be prepared to back them up with some Mathematical Physics.

Anyone can discuss anything with little pre-requisite knowledge. Just saying a set has a larger gamut says nothing about proper reproduction of color. Having the proper gamut for the source, and decoding the color properly, while maintaing the approriate white point with good gray scale tracking is the start for accurate color. Just because a salesman says so does not mean that the sets are well calibrated out of the box. Mitsubishi has claimed this before. When I, or one of many objective calibration specialists get hands on one we will see. As for maintaining perfect calibration over time, that depends on lots of variables. Considdering that Mitsubishi has not even been able to buy caps that will last more than a few years, I will be very surprised with that kind of precision.

Wishing and hoping that pie in the sky claims are true does not make them so.

As I have said many times here, healthy skepticism is in order and time will tell. Fortunately for Mitsubishi, there are enough believers that the initial production should sell through quickly.

Do you want to place your credentials on the line? What degrees do you hold in Physics? I hold a Ph. D and don't require listening to a salesman or anyone else for technical details on products. Again I say if you want to discuss some color theory mathematics, we can do it off line. There is nothiing subtle about calibrating TVs, it's building them that's hard to do. And you can't build them without understanding these notions of very simple optics.

Was a purchase price discussed?

Changeling

Yes it was, $7000.00, was in the same price range as the Kuro....of course that is suggested price(like Bjorn will not go with that price LOL)

BeachComber....come now, why do you need to justify your purchase?
Just be happy with it, it's a great plasma.
Not as good as the 9G Elites though.



I know this has been stated but what is the depth on these Laservue sets?

10 inches

i dont get it , one says deep blacks , rich shadow detail. Someone else says blacks were not deep. Mitsubishi needs to give the tv to sound and vision , home theater mag , and ultimate av mag for a real evaluation.

I strongly agree. I'll need to see those reviews before I buy.

Got a chance to see Laservue Technology today. Let me say this, it makes all other display technologies look washed out by comparison. Boy the colors are so deep and so rich its just amazing. The blacks are deep and the whites are pure whites, the picture is sharp, the viewing angles are best of seen on any RPTV. I have never seen a display technology with the colors of the Mits Laservue display. Its the best RPTV technology ever. However, that's the downside. Being a RPTV it has the infamous silk screen effect which I find objectional. Also, at hefy price tag for 65 incher (7K) I don't know what Mits is thinking in terms long range plans for the success of Laservue technology, considering the fact the RPTV market is almost completely dead.

I wish there was a way this technology could be implemental as a flat panel because I can tell you right now, this not your daddy's TV technology, this is new technology (as far TV's are concern) and a good technology at that.

I think Laservue is really headed to the Front Projection market, where it should put to rest, DLP, LCOS, LCD all that other mess that doesn't compare to Laservue.

While I agree with you having seen it here in San Antonio, be advised while it uses laser it still uses the DLP chip...so DLP is still around. This was confirmed my the Mits reps, although they are pushing the Laser side of this.

I don't recall them speaking about the 120hz at all. As I stated in my breif review, they ran a loop recording of animation, games, different locations and very little live action.

... it still uses the DLP chip... This was confirmed my the Mits reps, although they are pushing the Laser side of this.

Of course they are, the light source is the only significant difference between it and all the other DLPs before it. If they were focusing on it being a DLP, people would be asking why it's four times as much as the other ones. But let's not get too far off topic. This is a thread about Plasmas, right?

...This is a thread about Plasmas, right?

Actually I think a detailed comparison with the best plasmas is quite relevant, since they are now the gold standard of display quality, and if Laservue is to succeed as a premium product it has to compete with this. But once there is enough eyeball data it would be WAY better to start a new thread on such a comparison. I can't do it since Mits isn't selling Laservue in Canada, at least not yet (or am I wrong?) but maybe someone in a more favored location who has seen a Laservue and Kuro side by side could start one. Then at least we can tell off-topic posters to go comb a different beach.

Do you want to place your credentials on the line? What degrees do you hold in Physics? I hold a Ph. D and don't require listening to a salesman or anyone else for technical details on products. Again I say if you want to discuss some color theory mathematics, we can do it off line. There is nothiing subtle about calibrating TVs, it's building them that's hard to do. And you can't build them without understanding these notions of very simple optics.


Why discuss it offline. Start a thread. Do it here. It would be appropriate because you are making statements that are misleading to other readers and they need to be cleared up. You have challenged statements by me and others without being specific enough for us to even respond. You have been corrected in specific ways and respond with nothing more credible than a claim to a degree in Physics.

I will be hapy to put my credibility on the line to discuss color science. I have done so many times here and elsewhere, and have been studying the matter, as well as working with television, including repair, system design, installation and calibration for nearly 30 years.

Please specify how I, or Owen, are incorrect. Everything that he wrote in th post that you challenged is pretty close to correct, most of it dead on. I am not sure about the aging issues, but then neither are you since you don't have access to the details of the Mits product, its parts, nor the appropriate data.

The fact is, you have comented on gamut as though it is a good thing to extended it. The fact is that extending gamut is only a good thing if it matches the source. We have a specific gamut for HD and displays should match that gamut, as well as decode colors properly. If they don't, they are not accurate. You might like it oversaturated, but this is not a scientific preference, only a personal one.

So much for a decent audition; I returned to the Store Saturday for another audition with the Laservue with a view of a football game in mind rather than Animation. The prototype unit had cropped out (so I was told). Bummer. Probably just as well I wait for the formal reviews of this unit before I think about buying it. In the interim, maybe I move my old FP to the bedroom put up a dirt cheap screen in lieu of Kuro/Laservue and put a new FP in the HT room.

As for the FP, the Mitsu Rep suggested to me they had plans for a 108" version of the Laservue and no plans for a FP unit. At that size, who needs FP ?

I know the wider color gamut with the LED DLP sets negatively affects the colors, shifting them and making them over saturated.

With the color Gamut set on sRGB with the LED DLP sets it produces superb accurate colors, post calibration.
I would think the LASERVUES would behave the same way with a wide color gamut.

Which is why Mitsubishi focusing on the extra colors has been confusing to me. No content has these extra colors so why would anyone want them to be shown and alter the content in a way they were not meant to be seen?

I know the wider color gamut with the LED DLP sets negatively affects the colors, shifting them and making them over saturated.

With the color Gamut set on sRGB with the LED DLP sets it produces superb accurate colors, post calibration.
I would think the LASERVUES would behave the same way with a wide color gamut.

Which is why Mitsubishi focusing on the extra colors has been confusing to me. No content has these extra colors so why would anyone want them to be shown and alter the content in a way they were not meant to be seen?

Weren't there a number of comments about the "cartoonish colors" at CEDIA when the first Samsung LED version was released? Sounds like the same marketing bias: trying to emphasize a difference in new technology.

jdg

Has Mitsubishi published a schedule of locations for their Laservue demo trucks?

They're at Bjorn's now and (I guess) somewhere in California. Anyone know where they're going next?

So why are they pushing Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail ?

and , Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for “x.v.Color™” (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.

Is there a source coming out that handles this colorspace? Is this a marketing stunt on us?

I know pioneer bluray players upconvert the colorspace. The 05 does 12 bit processing and the 09-FD will do 16bit.

I know the wider color gamut with the LED DLP sets negatively affects the colors, shifting them and making them over saturated.

With the color Gamut set on sRGB with the LED DLP sets it produces superb accurate colors, post calibration.
I would think the LASERVUES would behave the same way with a wide color gamut.

Which is why Mitsubishi focusing on the extra colors has been confusing to me. No content has these extra colors so why would anyone want them to be shown and alter the content in a way they were not meant to be seen?

Aaronwt,

There are fundamental differences between this laser based design and the corresponding LED design. In the first place LEDs have much broader spectra and in some cases spectra that are asymmetric. There is more ambiguity in defininig an appropriate mapping from the LED primaries to an RGB 709, based D65 space. With these three primary lasers and their very narrow spectra, the mapping to tristimulus values, is very precise. And also from there to the RGB 709 space. It only takes a minute or two to carry out the correct transformations in this new laser case. I'd have to think long and hard about how to do that calculation for a set of LEDs.
I do think we can trust an entire company with all its technical folks(Scientists and Engineers etc.) to have a clue about what is important in a product they designed and built.

Actually I think a detailed comparison with the best plasmas is quite relevant, since they are now the gold standard of display quality, and if Laservue is to succeed as a premium product it has to compete with this. But once there is enough eyeball data it would be WAY better to start a new thread on such a comparison. I can't do it since Mits isn't selling Laservue in Canada, at least not yet (or am I wrong?) but maybe someone in a more favored location who has seen a Laservue and Kuro side by side could start one. Then at least we can tell off-topic posters to go comb a different beach.

The Pioneer Kuro looks dull in comparison to Laservue. Others, as I posted before, agree.

Let's see how they look post calibration in the same enviroment...that is the 'only way' to 'really' see its' value.
10" is very nice for RPTV....no geometry issues with these, right?

Why discuss it offline. Start a thread. Do it here. It would be appropriate because you are making statements that are misleading to other readers and they need to be cleared up. You have challenged statements by me and others without being specific enough for us to even respond. You have been corrected in specific ways and respond with nothing more credible than a claim to a degree in Physics.

I will be hapy to put my credibility on the line to discuss color science. I have done so many times here and elsewhere, and have been studying the matter, as well as working with television, including repair, system design, installation and calibration for nearly 30 years.

Please specify how I, or Owen, are incorrect. Everything that he wrote in th post that you challenged is pretty close to correct, most of it dead on. I am not sure about the aging issues, but then neither are you since you don't have access to the details of the Mits product, its parts, nor the appropriate data.

The fact is, you have comented on gamut as though it is a good thing to extended it. The fact is that extending gamut is only a good thing if it matches the source. We have a specific gamut for HD and displays should match that gamut, as well as decode colors properly. If they don't, they are not accurate. You might like it oversaturated, but this is not a scientific preference, only a personal one.

When one speaks of Gamut, the set of primaries really define the Gamut, so your statement, "...unless it matches the source..", doesn't make sense to me. Next thing is that I am not the only one that's talking about enhanced Gamut. The Mitsubishi folks have been talking a great deal about that over the past several months.
You say you've been a calibrator for many years and that's good. But calibrating TVs does not imply that one understands Color Theory. The latter is a very advanced branch of Optical Science. Quite abstruse, quite mathematical. I would ask you, for example, can you write down a mapping from a fixed set of RGB lasers to the RGB 709 D65 space? One needds to be able to do that in order to speak definitively on this topic.
Now with regards to my misleading folks, I am absolutely certain that I have not misled anyone. I've offered technical insight where appropriate and relayed my experiences to the group. To be sure, there has certainly been a lot of misleading on this thread, but most of it has been done by a large number of naysayers here.
Another thing, is that these lasers don't age in the sense of obey an Arhenius type Rate of decay(applies to lamps and LEDs). Rather, they perform unchanged to the end of life and fail suddenly. No aging to half brightness, for example.

10" is very nice for RPTV....no geometry issues with these, right?

This is where I'm skeptical that RP will ever be able to completley compete with flat panel displays. I have a WD-73736, and if you turn off the geometry corrections, there are obvious geometry problems. Turning on geometry correction prevents 1:1 pixel mapping, and thuse negatively affects resolution/sharpness. It's nearly physically impossible to project an image at these angles and not have geometry problems. And the lenses/mirrors used to attempt to focus a rectangular image on the screen impose a slight chromatic abberation. None of this is severe enough to prevent me from enjoying the display, it's still a huge step up from my previous 46" RPTV. But if after all these years, they still haven't been able to completely overcome these issues, I can't believe that they suddenly have in a set that is almost half as deep as their current bulb-based sets. It would be quite the accomplishment if they've managed to reduce the depth so much without making it worse.

That's what I figured, but I am hoping for the best. Does seem unlikely though.

Let's see how they look post calibration in the same enviroment...that is the 'only way' to 'really' see its' value.
10" is very nice for RPTV....no geometry issues with these, right?

Have you seen it? The truth of the matter is, for once, what they have been saying in their advertsing about Laservue is real. Some might love this display some may not, that's a personal choice. Personally I believe the laser technology implemented in this display, in itself, has a lot to do with why the picture looks the way that it does and why no other current display technology, with the exception of OLED, can match the deep, dark, rich colors of Laservue. Its an amazing RPTV, but again I believe this technology is better suited for front project and quite possibly commercial cinema.

This is where I'm skeptical that RP will ever be able to completley compete with flat panel displays. I have a WD-73736, and if you turn off the geometry corrections, there are obvious geometry problems. Turning on geometry correction prevents 1:1 pixel mapping, and thuse negatively affects resolution/sharpness. It's nearly physically impossible to project an image at these angles and not have geometry problems. And the lenses/mirrors used to attempt to focus a rectangular image on the screen impose a slight chromatic abberation. None of this is severe enough to prevent me from enjoying the display, it's still a huge step up from my previous 46" RPTV. But if after all these years, they still haven't been able to completely overcome these issues, I can't believe that they suddenly have in a set that is almost half as deep as their current bulb-based sets. It would be quite the accomplishment if they've managed to reduce the depth so much without making it worse.

That might be true, but flat panels have some issues of there own. For example, Plasma don't look that great in moderately lit rooms and the whites are not really white.

I believe a technology like Laservue will not look good in both well lighted and dark rooms.

Have you seen it? The truth of the matter is, for once, what they have been saying in their advertsing about Laservue is real. Some might love this display some may not, that's a personal choice. Personally I believe the laser technology implemented in this display, in itself, has a lot to do with why the picture looks the way that it does and why no other current display technology, with the exception of OLED, can match the deep, dark, rich colors of Laservue. Its an amazing RPTV, but again I believe this technology is better suited for front project and quite possibly commercial cinema.

No I haven't seen one yet.

Have you seen one calibrated?
Have you seen a Pioneer 151 calibrated?
Have you seen both calibrated by independent calibrators and in the same enviroment next to each other to compare?

I'm hoping for the best, including no geometry issues that can't be fixed, no SSE and no bad viewing angles, but even if Idid see one in a demo wouldn't take a stance as that is not the place to make any real judgements.
-imo

No I haven't seen one yet.

Have you seen one calibrated?
Have you seen a Pioneer 151 calibrated?
Have you seen both calibrated by independent calibrators and in the same enviroment next to each other to compare?

I'm hoping for the best, including no geometry issues that can't be fixed, no SSE and no bad viewing angles, but even if Idid see one in a demo wouldn't take a stance as that is not the place to make any real judgements.
-imo

I have not seen a calibrated Pio 151, I don't doubt that it looks great. However, no matter how you calibrate it, it is what it is, a PDP and being as such it has certain limitations. Its not Laser technology and from what I have seen so far, Laservue delivers what it has promised. Its new technology!!

From what I have seen, it has not eliminated the infamous SSE and Plasma still maintains superior viewing angles over Laservue.

I'm going to patiently weight for an "unbiased" calibrated rewiew of the Laservue. But I believe, not matter what, you can calibrate a PDP until the cows come home, its not going to beat Laservue when comes to deep, rich , dark colors.

Why wait until it/they have been calibrated, IMHO must don't get there the set calibrated anyway. I don't understand why companies don't calibrate at factory. I think about getting my set calibrated but fear I may not like the finished job.

I have not seen a calibrated Pio 151, I don't doubt that it looks great. .

You sure make a lot of claims without ever seeing something and your hate for plasma and Pioneer's in general come shining through in almost every single one of your posts. That's why you have no credibility in this forum as you form opinions and spout it off as fact without any first hand experience. :rolleyes:

Why wait until it/they have been calibrated, IMHO must don't get there the set calibrated anyway. I don't understand why companies don't calibrate at factory. I think about getting my set calibrated but fear I may not like the finished job.

If you want accuracy and appreciate it, then go for one...if you use standard or vivid modes and barely change OTB settings you probably wont like a calibration.
I agree that one setting should be a calibrated to D65 setting from the factory....but that wont happen anytime soon.
Why one would pay thousands of dollars for a display only to not make it accurate is beyond me, when they can spend a fraction of the cost on a cheaper display that will net the same inferior picture they will set-up on their expensive display.
-jmo

... flat panels have some issues of there own. For example, Plasma don't look that great in moderately lit rooms and the whites are not really white.

I agree that each technology has it's own set of pros/cons, but I don't agree with those points. I have three HD sets (73" DLP in den, 46" RP-CRT in living room, and 42" plasma in kitchen), and I don't have any "allegiance" to any type. But the kitchen is an extremely bright room, with an entire wall of south facing glass, skylights, and windows on other walls. I can't imagine anyone trying to put a display in a brighter room, but the plasma has no problem in there. And there's no reason for a quality plasma not being able to be calibrated to "proper" whites. That being said, out of all three, the DLP is my favorite, because it's the only one with a cost/screen size ratio that allows me to achieve an immersive size in my budget while maintaining good PQ. That being said, I still believe plasma has the potential for best overall PQ, but it's expensive in large sizes, and consumes a lot of energy. I don't doubt for a moment that laser DLP will provide benefits over bulb based DLP, but I remain very skeptical that it's going to be able to match plasma in overall PQ. Once the 73" comes out, it will likely be the best (albeit expensive) option in that size range, but I just don't think it's going to be a major competitor until the price comes down substantially.

I know the wider color gamut with the LED DLP sets negatively affects the colors, shifting them and making them over saturated.

With the color Gamut set on sRGB with the LED DLP sets it produces superb accurate colors, post calibration.
I would think the LASERVUES would behave the same way with a wide color gamut.

Which is why Mitsubishi focusing on the extra colors has been confusing to me. No content has these extra colors so why would anyone want them to be shown and alter the content in a way they were not meant to be seen?

Wider color gamut is not the primary issue. It is the limited bandwidth of the light produced by each LED that does not match the CIE standard observer curves. This makes it difficult to decode to intermediate colors. The Primaries can be oversaturated while other colors are under. The problem is that we have no tools for testing this very easily at this point. Thje LED sets can look very good, but some complain of the color looking strange compared to phosphor or lamp based units with wider spectra in the primaries.

When one speaks of Gamut, the set of primaries really define the Gamut, so your statement, "...unless it matches the source..", doesn't make sense to me. Next thing is that I am not the only one that's talking about enhanced Gamut. The Mitsubishi folks have been talking a great deal about that over the past several months.
You say you've been a calibrator for many years and that's good. But calibrating TVs does not imply that one understands Color Theory. The latter is a very advanced branch of Optical Science. Quite abstruse, quite mathematical. I would ask you, for example, can you write down a mapping from a fixed set of RGB lasers to the RGB 709 D65 space? One needds to be able to do that in order to speak definitively on this topic.
Now with regards to my misleading folks, I am absolutely certain that I have not misled anyone. I've offered technical insight where appropriate and relayed my experiences to the group. To be sure, there has certainly been a lot of misleading on this thread, but most of it has been done by a large number of naysayers here.
Another thing, is that these lasers don't age in the sense of obey an Arhenius type Rate of decay(applies to lamps and LEDs). Rather, they perform unchanged to the end of life and fail suddenly. No aging to half brightness, for example.

Without knowing the spectra of those lasers after the filters that they are likely using there would be no way to map them to Rec709 space. If you are going to do so, however, you start with the ability to adjust saturation, hue, and luma of the primaries to match the 709 gamut. Extended gamat capability may be useful in some future situation where extended gamut sources are available, but since for now we are primarily using 709, there is not much benefit. If you can't adjust the primaries, i.e. the sets do not have a true CMS, then there is actually a performance disadvantage to extended gamut. No you are not the first to discuss this, nor is Mitsubishi. The question, and the problem, is that manufacturers have not provided spectral data, nor provided decoder mappings, nor provided the ability to actually manipulate the primaries and secondaries, except in a few cases. Hopefully Mits will have a true CMS on these sets. Hopefully they can be calibrated to behave properly with respect to color reproduction.

Your assumption that I, and other calibration specialists do not understand color science is unfounded. Some of us understand it quite well. Your assumption that the engineers at Mitsubishi and other companies are interested in producing sets that reproduce color properly has also been proven wrong many times. Perhaps this time they will get it right, but it will take some time to figure that out. Let me know when you get your spectroradiometer out and measure one.

That might be true, but flat panels have some issues of there own. For example, Plasma don't look that great in moderately lit rooms and the whites are not really white.

I believe a technology like Laservue will not look good in both well lighted and dark rooms.


What does "the whites are not really white" mean? How are you defining white?

from the comments so far, seems to me laservue is bringing something unique to the table with its colors, which is great because I think for most ppl, if they're going to pay $7k for a rptv with its inherent problems, they want something more than "as good as a kuro" but 5" bigger.

also, it sounds like laservue is very bright and they haven't had to use a high gain screen like what samsung did with their LED dlps since the viewing angles are very good for RP. hopefully this translates into laser as a light source in front projection. If Mits can get the combination of laser+dlp working in FP, I am so there! Of course if they price it at 7K, I'll have to wait again :(

auditor, thanks for the review and thanks for not falling back on "well I can't really say until I've seen it in cailbrated in my theater etc etc". That's true enough, but it's also a bit like saying "I can't tell who's better looking until I've seen both with proper makeup, hair, and lighting."

Why wait until it/they have been calibrated, IMHO must don't get there the set calibrated anyway. I don't understand why companies don't calibrate at factory. I think about getting my set calibrated but fear I may not like the finished job.

In reading through the many links/posts at this web site I have constantly read that all sets should be calibrated, this has made me wonder every time why it isn't done by the factory but I guess it would take an extra 30 minutes or whatever witch would make them have to raise the price of each set about 300%, LOL! Then again if they were to tighten up manufacturing/parts control they could come up with a set of calibration factors that would come a lot closer to hitting the bulls eye than they are now, that would probably only raise consumer price maybe 200%, LOL, again.
I fully agree with your comment haywardw and what "davegow" had to say above regarding a full comparison/review with Plasmas (throwing in a TOL LCD wouldn't hurt anyones feelings either), this way an overall decision of making an informed purchase would make more sense.

The way they brought this set (Laser View) forward to the public doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, to much smoke and mirrors.
I doubt if a lot of people are going to slap down $7K (going estimate) on the first model of a new technology without very strong reviews by established company's/groups/magazines and this web site of course!

I think I have at least one of the answers why TV sets are not factory calibrated: We represent less than 5% of potential buyers for new TV sets. Places like CC and BestBuy will continue to be the major vendors and they know that the "torch mode" is almost a requirement to sell anything to the Joe six-pack. How many times have you been in a BestBuy and heard customers saying "I like that one better, it's much brighter" ? Now, have you seen an ISF calibrated TV ? It doesn't look like the TVs you see on display in big stores. Contrast , for example, is normally way lower on a calibrated TV. If the factories start calibrating the sets , BestBuy would probably de-calibrate them to sell more . My Magnolia, that should be a bit better than an ordinary store, put ALL the sets on vivid mode. The Tweeter (Sound Advice here in South Florida) does the same. Do you know any ISF calibrator who would let your set at "vivid " ?

auditor, thanks for the review and thanks for not falling back on "well I can't really say until I've seen it in cailbrated in my theater etc etc". That's true enough, but it's also a bit like saying "I can't tell who's better looking until I've seen both with proper makeup, hair, and lighting."


Except that there is no standards for factory settings.
So although display#1 may be a much beeter display, its' OTB settings may make it look completewly inferior to a lesser display with better OTB settings.
It really is the 'only' way that makes 'any' sense.

I think I have at least one of the answers why TV sets are not factory calibrated: We represent less than 5% of potential buyers for new TV sets. Places like CC and BestBuy will continue to be the major vendors and they know that the "torch mode" is almost a requirement to sell anything to the Joe six-pack. How many times have you been in a BestBuy and heard customers saying "I like that one better, it's much brighter" ? Now, have you seen an ISF calibrated TV ? It doesn't look like the TVs you see on display in big stores. Contrast , for example, is normally way lower on a calibrated TV. If the factories start calibrating the sets , BestBuy would probably de-calibrate them to sell more . My Magnolia, that should be a bit better than an ordinary store, put ALL the sets on vivid mode. The Tweeter (Sound Advice here in South Florida) does the same. Do you know any ISF calibrator who would let your set at "vivid " ?

While I understand what you are saying. If companies the majority if not all calibrated their sets all the above would change. And I believe those that care about this make up more then 5pct of the market, if not they would not be able to get what they do for these sets. I don't know the answer, and as stated I don't even know if i wouuld like a calibrated tv vs one that is not. I would however, like to see them side by side and choose.
I often hear that the sets are setup like, do we know this to be true. Take the Kuro I say Friday, if it was setup that way then toned down would drown out most of the picture. Now this is just my 2ct.

I think I have at least one of the answers why TV sets are not factory calibrated: We represent less than 5% of potential buyers for new TV sets. Places like CC and BestBuy will continue to be the major vendors and they know that the "torch mode" is almost a requirement to sell anything to the Joe six-pack. How many times have you been in a BestBuy and heard customers saying "I like that one better, it's much brighter" ? Now, have you seen an ISF calibrated TV ? It doesn't look like the TVs you see on display in big stores. Contrast , for example, is normally way lower on a calibrated TV. If the factories start calibrating the sets , BestBuy would probably de-calibrate them to sell more . My Magnolia, that should be a bit better than an ordinary store, put ALL the sets on vivid mode. The Tweeter (Sound Advice here in South Florida) does the same. Do you know any ISF calibrator who would let your set at "vivid " ?

I concur 100%. When I tried to get the reps to take the Laservue out of torch mode, the head rep gave me the line that they wanted all three sets in their demo to be out of box settings. When he walked away, another Mits rep agreed the set was to hyped up, but said thats what sells!

This is all very similar to a high end audio system that is overly bright. It sounds great for awhile, but ultimately it is unsatisfying long term. Most of my friends have their sets set up with way to much color, brightness and contrast. They want it to look striking, not accurate. We'll just have to resign ourselves to the minority. The good news is I still have high hopes the Laservue is truly a breakthrough. I should able to see it under conditions similar to Auditor 55 on Tuesday.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/

Nice to see that the television has finally appeared in a retail location. I am axiously awaiting the day when I can see one for myself, but have agreed with my wife, to wait until the second or third generation models come to market... with hopefully a price closer to that of a high end conventional DLP.

Can't wait to begin reading the reviews from those of you who take the plunge!

Regards,
Spence

Without knowing the spectra of those lasers after the filters that they are likely using there would be no way to map them to Rec709 space. If you are going to do so, however, you start with the ability to adjust saturation, hue, and luma of the primaries to match the 709 gamut. Extended gamat capability may be useful in some future situation where extended gamut sources are available, but since for now we are primarily using 709, there is not much benefit. If you can't adjust the primaries, i.e. the sets do not have a true CMS, then there is actually a performance disadvantage to extended gamut. No you are not the first to discuss this, nor is Mitsubishi. The question, and the problem, is that manufacturers have not provided spectral data, nor provided decoder mappings, nor provided the ability to actually manipulate the primaries and secondaries, except in a few cases. Hopefully Mits will have a true CMS on these sets. Hopefully they can be calibrated to behave properly with respect to color reproduction.


Your assumption that I, and other calibration specialists do not understand color science is unfounded. Some of us understand it quite well. Your assumption that the engineers at Mitsubishi and other companies are interested in producing sets that reproduce color properly has also been proven wrong many times. Perhaps this time they will get it right, but it will take some time to figure that out. Let me know when you get your spectroradiometer out and measure one.

Ocaillo,

You will be going along nicely, then all of a sudden you will say something strange like, "....after the filters that they are likely using there would be no way to map them to Rec709 space." There are no filters in this approach, nor does there exist any filter that might augment these primaries.
Now regarding wavelengths for the primaries, letg's start with these three for definiteness: {460nm, 532nm, 635nm}
Now write down the transformation. TIA

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/

Nice to see that the television has finally appeared in a retail location.

Have you not been reading the last several pages of this thread? The first sighting doesn't "appear" to be in Texas. It is. And a few members went and saw it last weekend and have been giving their thoughts.

Although I do appreciate that link.

Ocaillo,

You will be going along nicely, then all of a sudden you will say something strange like, "....after the filters that they are likely using there would be no way to map them to Rec709 space." There are no filters in this approach, nor does there exist any filter that might augment these primaries.
Now regarding wavelengths for the primaries, letg's start with these three for definiteness: {460nm, 532nm, 635nm}
Now write down the transformation. TIA

There goes proof that you don't understand how images are created. The assumtion in the transforms is that the primary spectra are similar to the CIE standard observer curves. When the primaries hav limited spectral density due to very narrow bandwidth, you may or may not get the proper color at any given point. If you read what I said, I was clear that the problem is not knowing the spectral characteristics.

Color science is based on certain assumptions that LEDs and Lasers violate. This would be the nature of the spectra that are required to produce images that are perceived to be the same color as naturally occurring images. CIE curves have been the basis of this for years. When engineers design cameras they modify the response to match these curves as best they can. When displays are designed, they should do the same if they want to use the relatively simple matrix transforms defined for video. If they do not adhere to the CIE curves in the primaries, they have to modify the primaries with filters (which is very inefficient) or have more complex mappings in their transforms. Unfortunately, they do give us details on what they are doing. You are operating on assumptions just like the rest of us.

Like I said, when you get some measurements with a spectro, let us know...

Ocaillo,

I spent much of my adult life doing spectral measuremnts. There is no need for us to go there. Again, will you accomodate us with the transformation? I do believe if you carry out this calculation, you will place a little physical underpinning to the big words.

Have you not been reading the last several pages of this thread? The first sighting doesn't "appear" to be in Texas. It is. And a few members went and saw it last weekend and have been giving their thoughts.

Although I do appreciate that link.

I was aware that the television has been on display at recent industry related shows. What I was pointing out was what I believe to be the first retail display, where the products are actually for sale and on display for anyone walking into the store to see.

I will go back through the thread again, but I didn't catch any 'retail display' of the product in earlier threads. You'll have to excuse me if I may have missed it mentioned as I was excited to read the article. If I have indeed missed something, I apologize.

Regards,
Spence

I was aware that the television has been on display at recent industry related shows. What I was pointing out was what I believe to be the first retail display, where the products are actually for sale and on display for anyone walking into the store to see.

I will go back through the thread again, but I didn't catch any 'retail display' of the product in earlier threads. You'll have to excuse me if I may have missed it mentioned as I was excited to read the article. If I have indeed missed something, I apologize.

Regards,
Spence

The following posts are all discussing the LaserVue at Bjorns:

2174, 2180, 2182-2185, 2190, 2195, 2197, 2199, 2231-2246, 2252-2254, 2256, 2260, 2281, 2284, 2285, 2287, 2295.

Why wait until it/they have been calibrated, IMHO must don't get there the set calibrated anyway. I don't understand why companies don't calibrate at factory. I think about getting my set calibrated but fear I may not like the finished job.

I'll wait because calibration seems to be the litmus test around here for what qualifies as a fair assesment for display.

You sure make a lot of claims without ever seeing something and your hate for plasma and Pioneer's in general come shining through in almost every single one of your posts. That's why you have no credibility in this forum as you form opinions and spout it off as fact without any first hand experience. :rolleyes:

I don't dislike the Kuro sets, but I do think they're over hyped, they get more credit than what they deserve, that's my opinion.

I don't hate Plasma, since I own one as my primary display. However I have great disdain for the company "Pioneer" because some of their business tactics and deceptive marketing approaches.

IYO....no different than anyone else in my opinion.
What will you do if this doesn't turn out to be the Kuro killer since you dislike Kuro's as a whole?
Kind of out of options at that point.

IYO....no different than anyone else in my opinion.
What will you do if this doesn't turn out to be the Kuro killer since you dislike Kuro's as a whole?
Kind of out of options at that point.

I have no plans on buying a Laservue set and I never said its going to be a Kuro Killer, I highly doubt that since its a RPTV and I personally believe the RPTV market is dead. The Kuro, being that it is a flat panel and has that as an advantage over a RPTV like Laservue ,and as a plasma, it still maintain superior viewing angles over Laservue, although the viewing angles on Laservue is better than what I've seen on any RPTV.

What I like about Laservue and Mitsubushi is that they have, in my opinion, delivered on what they promised with this technology. Its new technolog and exciting and I get that feeling from Laservue that the industry is truly taking that next step into the future on display technology.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/

Nice to see that the television has finally appeared in a retail location. I am axiously awaiting the day when I can see one for myself, but have agreed with my wife, to wait until the second or third generation models come to market... with hopefully a price closer to that of a high end conventional DLP.

Can't wait to begin reading the reviews from those of you who take the plunge!

Regards,
Spence

Take a look at this side-by-side picture from page two of the article you cited. I know you can't tell a lot from pictures but come on. I don't know why they would even show this picture because it shows the Mitsubishi as clearly inferior. The picture makes it look like a bad no name brand.
http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

Ocaillo,

I spent much of my adult life doing spectral measuremnts. There is no need for us to go there. Again, will you accomodate us with the transformation? I do believe if you carry out this calculation, you will place a little physical underpinning to the big words.

The transform would be meaningless. I am quite familiar with the math. I have an advanced degree myself. Again, you may be familiar with making spectral measures, and the tranformation, yet have little understanding of human perception, the technology for getting from a source to a display image, nor the implications of a new technology like the LaserVue products. You have shown no more knowledge than a typical fan-boy of any technology.

Take a look at this side-by-side picture from page two of the article you cited. I know you can't tell a lot from pictures but come on. I don't know why they would even show this picture because it shows the Mitsubishi as clearly inferior.

Noticed that too and also wondered why they included that pic.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

Reverse psychology?

I checked the viewing angle of the Laservue and concur with Auditor 55. The Laservue has, by far, the best viewing angle of any RPTV I've seen. Not as good as the Elite 151, which was right next to it, but good enough where it should be a non issue for the vast majority of viewers.

Regarding the picture of the LV and the 151 together, a digital camera isn't the human eye. Looking at a digital picture on a computer screen is a long, long way from seeing it in person. While its better than nothing, nobody should draw any conclusions from a picture. Neither set looked anything like the picture live.

Take a look at this side-by-side picture from page two of the article you cited. I know you can't tell a lot from pictures but come on. I don't know why they would even show this picture because it shows the Mitsubishi as clearly inferior. The picture makes it look like a bad no name brand.
http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

Depending on the angle the shot was taken from, that could be due to the camera flash. Hard to say. Pics never really translate well and it's hard to see anything for sure unless you see it in person. I certainly hope that isn't a true representation.

Noticed that too and also wondered why they included that pic.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg
It looks like the laservue is in 3D mode. Retards couldnt take a normal picture.

I checked the viewing angle of the Laservue and concur with Auditor 55. The Laservue has, by far, the best viewing angle of any RPTV I've seen. Not as good as the Elite 151, which was right next to it, but good enough where it should be a non issue for the vast majority of viewers.


Was it this good vertically as well? Or just horizontally?

It looks like the laservue is in 3D mode. Retards couldnt take a normal picture.Even if it is 3d mode, it wouldn't lose depth of the picture... It has ZERO depth at all (and I'm discarding the sharpness because it may be in 3D mode). Unless you like an imperfect gamma curve (which many do like a lower end hump because it gives "more" shadow detail), the kuro does not crush blacks. They have an essentially perfect gamma.

Was it this good vertically as well? Or just horizontally?

I only checked it horizontally, as you can see from the picture the set is elevated quite a bit and is at eye level while standing. But, thanks for the reminder. Since I'm going to demo the set tomorrow I'll check the vertical.

I just returned from Bjorn's where I spent about thirty minutes looking at the laservue. The results are inconclusive, here's why:

1. The set was in torch mode and the reps were reluctant to change it. They had it set up between an Elite 151 and a Sharp 65" lcd. They said all three sets were left in their "out of the box settings" to make the comparison fair.

2. I saw quite a bit of screen crawl, if you looked at a white field the screen looked alive with noise. Is this called the silk screen effect? Anyway, it may have been made worse by the color intensity and brightness being much to high.

3. The color temp was a joke, white was egg shell blue.

4. The black level was weak, inferior to the Sharp and not even close to the Elite.

All of this is inconclusive as the set was set up to impress people with being big and bright. All the reps talked about was the color. I'll go back next week when the crowds are gone. My salesman and I can then adjust the settings to a more rational level.
I was at Bjorn's last Friday to see the new Mitsubishi Laservue. I've known Bjorn for years; he is a great guy with great connections. According to the Mitsu rep this was only place in the world that Laservue was on display that weekend. Overall, Laservue looked quite good. 3D is really cool; reminded me of 3D at IMAX. However, I occasionally saw some blurring in 3D when I moved my eyes or head. Viewing angle was the best I've ever seen on a RPTV but not good enough to get me to buy one yet.

The side-by-side comparison of Mitsu Laservue with the Sharp Aquos LCD and Pioneer Elite plasma was interesting. The colors on the Laservue are very vibrant but almost to the point of over saturation; skin tone was way too red and looked sunburned. Its colors sometimes looked almost cartoonish to me. The Sharp LCD had very accurate and the most realistic skin tone and better shadow detail. On black space scenes with stars the Sharp LCD showed many more stars than did the Laservue. The Elite must have been set up wrong because it looked dull compared to the Mitsu Laservue and Sharp LCD. IMO, the Mitsu and Elite needed better calibration.

Overall, I'd say that Mitsu Laservue is a very good set, especially in 3D.

Noticed that too and also wondered why they included that pic.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

As you can see, the Mits is off center to the left, and it could be in torch mode. Now if i had both sets here at the house were i could tweak the settings, then i would know alot more than just looking at a random pic.

It looks like the laservue is in 3D mode. Retards couldnt take a normal picture.

How would it being in 3D mode have anything to do with the cameraman's ability? :confused:

Seggers

The Sharp LCD had very accurate and the most realistic skin tone and better shadow detail. On black space scenes with stars the Sharp LCD showed many more stars than did the Laservue. The Elite must have been set up wrong because it looked dull compared to the Mitsu Laservue and Sharp LCD. IMO, the Mitsu and Elite needed better calibration.


do you remember what sharp model they used? thanks

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

This picture is quite simply over exposed, dramatically so for the Mitsubishi which is obviously much brighter. Anyone who has made serious attempts to photograph a TV knows that it is almost impossible to capture the dynamic range of a TV picture with a digital camera, even a good one, and that’s when the camera is focused on only one screen and optimally exposing for it. No way is it possible to get even remotely acceptable exposure for the bright Lazerview and the other much duller TV in the same shot.

The super slim bezel on the Mits is awesome, but the two blue light strips on the bottom are distracting to say the least.

The super slim bezel on the Mits is awesome, but the two blue light strips on the bottom are distracting to say the least.

User guide indicates that the blue lights can be on when TV is off, on when TV is on, and off at all times. I'd rather have less decorative cabinet lighting, and (every penny helps is my thinking here) a lower price. ;)

i am intersted to see more pics and some more reveiws on this set.

The transform would be meaningless. I am quite familiar with the math. I have an advanced degree myself. Again, you may be familiar with making spectral measures, and the tranformation, yet have little understanding of human perception, the technology for getting from a source to a display image, nor the implications of a new technology like the LaserVue products. You have shown no more knowledge than a typical fan-boy of any technology.

Let me begin by pointing out that every discrete wavelength source has a fixed set of chromaticity values, hence a fixed set of tristimulus values. In order for us to get a real appreciation for what has been provided to us by this new technology, it's helpful for us to know some of this stuff.
There has been a lot of talk about the Gamut and some have argued that it's not important. Well it's really really iimportant as many photographers can readily attest. The gamut of a set of discrete sources, like these lasers is determined solely by their respective wavelengths. There exist detailed tables of chromaticity values as a function of wavelengths, as published in the CIE Spectral Tristimulus Values Table. The beautiful thing about these laser sources is that you can go directly to these tables and just read off the chromaticities etc. for each of the Red, Green and Blue Lasers. This is something that has not been available to us before because the sources were broad band. BTW, a good reference for these tables is:

"Optical Radiation Measurements, Volume 2", Edited by f. Grum and C. Bartleson

Let me first show you how the extended Gamujt comes about; for this we will have to assume a fixed set of RGB Lasers. Now I don't work for Mitsubishi, so I don't know for sure which wavelengths they are using. I do know, though, that Novalux recently developed a set of applicable lasers at wavelengths, {620nm, 532nm, 460nm}. For definiteness, we will use these wavelengths in this Tome. Let's now go into the tables and get a set of chromaticities:

Red@620nm: x(620nm) =0.69151; y(620nm)= 0.30834; z(620)=0.00015

Green@532nm:x(532nm)=0.17024; y(532nm)=0.79652; z(532)=.03324

Blue@460nm: x(460nm)=0.14396: y(460nm)=0.02970; z(460)=0.82634

In order to deduce the Gamut, we need merely to plot the three sets of ordered pairs (x(lambda), Y(lambda) on a CIE Chromaticity Diagram. I am sure most of you have seen one of these diagrams. They look like an inverted U with lower Gamut spaces, triangular in shape. If we plot our three sets and connect the dots, we will generate a triangular region which represents the Gamut generated by our laser sources. Very simple isn't it. I don't have the time right now but I will come back to this topic and insert an image showing a diagram with these points plotted. I'll also insert an image of Mathematica Notebook worksheet in which I calculate some relevant transformations.
For now, though, note the large value for the Green chromaticity, ~.8, this pushes the green point plot well above that of , for example Adobe RGB which encompasses the largest Gamut we have typically experienced heretofore. Also the Red at 620, goes deeper into the red regime and so likewise for the blue. If you draw straight lines through these points you will enclose a triangular region which is called the Gamut. This particular Gamut is very large, as I said, going well beyond, say Adobe RGB, to encompass many many colors we have not been able to reproduce before. This is not a small thing. it's becaujse of this mainly, that when you place one of these new TVs next to a Plasma or LCD, the latter two appear to be dull by comparison. The human eye, though, is a very tricky thing, you actually have to be doing a direct A to B comparsion, else the eye will compensate to make the other two sets appear wonderfully bright. This, I believe, is why Mits wants this TV right up close and personal to those TVs.

Now regarding those transformations, I will just sketch them in this note and come back later with an attached image of a Mathematica Notebook to show the details of calculations for this set. These primaries form a basis set for a cerftain vector space and as such, any other vector in that space can be represented a linear combination of this basis. Indirectly, I have already shown you how to construct the matrix that transforms the set {R,G,B} into the set {X,Y,Z}. Let A be the 3 by 3 matrix for this transformation, then:

{X,Y,Z} = A.{R,G,B}

Where the latter equation is a Matrix equation, where the Matrix A is plucked directly from the Tristimulus Tables.
Now it's well know that there exists a certain matrix B, say, that Transforms the RGB709 Basis to XYZ. You have probably seen that matrix because it's famous:

B = .412 .357 .180
.212 .715 .072
.019 .119 .950

Where for brevity, I have truncated some significant digits. In any case, we can write:

{X,Y,Z} =B.{RGB709}

These two sets of matrix equations allow us to express the two basis sets in terms of each other, thus:

{R,G,B} =Inverse[A].B.{RGB709}

Note that in particular, if the vector {RGB709} is the D65 white point, it will be denoted by {1,1,1}; and the last equation above allows you to calculate what linear combination of our laser set gives the D65 white point.
That's enough for now, we will explore more later.

Originally Posted by bhlonewolf
Was it this good vertically as well? Or just horizontally?

I checked both ways. The horizontal was great as stated. The vertical was not as good, there was more of a sweet spot.

As for the 2 Spore pics, that is not a good representation of what I saw. The Mits was brighter an more vivid with almost every color. The Kuro and the Mits matched almosted every time. The Sharp did not. When the Mits and Kuro were showing green grass, the Sharp had yellow green. I didn't find the skin tones to be overly red, but when compared to the other sets, it was redder.

Again, you can nitpick anything apart. People need to look at what is there, what's not. I am not a multimillionare, I don't have $7K in disposible income to drop on any set, so none of them are worth the money, IMHO. Even if I was, $7K for a TV is just not something I would do.

Lets face it though, the people in this forum don't drive the market. The majority of people who by TV sets are going to leave them with out of box setting or do some minor tweaking. Mits main point was out of the box settings will always look the same.

I do think Mits is crazy for trying to compete this against the other two sets. It's not the same. It's a laser light source for a RP DLP TV. Once they get back some of their R&D costs and ramp up production they need to drop the price down to their Diamond line or slightly above. They can kill the other two techs in price/performance/size and maybe their prices will drop too.

I am one of those people who expects some imperfection. I am going to be patient for the first gen bugs to be worked out. I think the LaserVue will represent the best price performance on the market in one more year. It's not their right now though.

John,

Maybe you can explain how displaying HD video, which is all encoded to the REC 709 standard, on a wide gamut display is a good thing, the result is unnatural over saturated colors, or if you constrain saturation so that peak Red, Green and Blue are on target with the standard, more subtle colors become under saturated.
The display gamut must match the video gamut for accuracy.

If my understanding is wrong I would like this explained.

John,

Maybe you can explain how displaying HD video, which is all encoded to the REC 709 standard, on a wide gamut display is a good thing, the result is unnatural over saturated colors, or if you constrain saturation so that peak Red, Green and Blue are on target with the standard, more subtle colors become under saturated.
The display gamut must match the video gamut for accuracy.

If my understanding is wrong I would like this explained.

I'm not sure that constraining saturation under-saturates the subtle colors. Maybe someone can elucidate.

So I'm gonna watch this thread, and the life of a LV, from afar.

I just bought me a Diamond 73 for a great price! :D

Seggers

When is there going to be an official review of this set?

User guide indicates that the blue lights can be on when TV is off, on when TV is on, and off at all times. I'd rather have less decorative cabinet lighting, and (every penny helps is my thinking here) a lower price. ;)

if they're going to put light on the cabinet, how about some bias lighting in the back.

if they're going to put light on the cabinet, how about some bias lighting in the back.

Good point. Bias lighting would at least have some functionality behind it.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/580/images/16.jpg

This picture is quite simply over exposed, dramatically so for the Mitsubishi which is obviously much brighter. .

That sums up the philosophy of the set.
Given two sets of speakers to listen to, the louder pair will sound "better". The same applies to tv-given two sets the brighter one will appear "better".Mitsu
knows this and they have produced
the mother of all torch sets. This appears to be a reading light that doubles as tv. All the talk about color'saturation and brightness is silly- the bottom line is how accuratly it can reproduce what it is given. SO far, it doesn't seem like it can do a good job of that.

do you remember what sharp model they used? thanks
Sharp 65SE94.


Also:
I agree with LowellG that when the Mits and Kuro were showing green grass, the Sharp had yellow green.

I agree with FiguredMaple that the super slim bezel on the Mits is awesome. I hate the wide shiny/reflective bezels that other manufacturers use.

Let me begin by pointing out that every discrete wavelength source has a fixed set of chromaticity values, hence a fixed set of tristimulus values. In order for us to get a real appreciation for what has been provided to us by this new technology, it's helpful for us to know some of this stuff.
There has been a lot of talk about the Gamut and some have argued that it's not important. Well it's really really iimportant as many photographers can readily attest. The gamut of a set of discrete sources, like these lasers is determined solely by their respective wavelengths. There exist detailed tables of chromaticity values as a function of wavelengths, as published in the CIE Spectral Tristimulus Values Table. The beautiful thing about these laser sources is that you can go directly to these tables and just read off the chromaticities etc. for each of the Red, Green and Blue Lasers. This is something that has not been available to us before because the sources were broad band. BTW, a good reference for these tables is:

"Optical Radiation Measuremsnts, Volume 2", Edited by f. Grum and C. Bartleson

Let me first show you how the extended Gamujt comes about; for this we will have to assume a fixed set of RGB Lasers. Now I don't work for Mitsubishi, so I don't know for sure which wavelengths they are using. I do know, though, that Novalux recently developed a set of applicable lasers at wavelengths, {620nm, 532nm, 460nm}. For definiteness, we will use these wavelengths in this Tome. Let's now go into the tables and get a set of chromaticities:

Red@620nm: x(620nm) =0.69151; y(620nm)= 0.30834; z(620)=0.00015

Green@532nm:x(532nm)=0.17024; y(532nm)=0.79652; z(532)=.03324

Blue@460nm: x(460nm)=0.14396: y(460nm)=0.02970; z(460)=0.82634

In order to deduce the Gamut, we need merely to plot the three sets of ordered pairs (x(lambda), Y(lambda) on a CIE Chromaticity Diagram. I am sure most of you have seen one of these diagrams. They look like an inverted U with lower Gamut spaces, triangular in shape. If we plot our three sets and connect the dots, we will generate a triangular region which represents the Gamut generated by our laser sources. Very simple isn't it. I don't have the time right now but I will come back to this topic and insert an image showing a diagram with these points plotted. I'll also insert an image of Mathematica Notebook worksheet in which I calculate some relevant transformations.
For now, though, note the large value for the Green chromaticity, ~.8, this pushes the green point plot well above that of , for example Adobe RGB which encompasses the largest Gamut we have typically experienced heretofore. Also the Red at 620, goes deeper into the red regime and so likewise for the blue. If you draw straight lines through these points you will enclose a triangular region which is called the Gamut. This particular Gamut is very large, as I said, going well beyond, say Adobe RGB, to encompass many many colors we have not been able to reproduce before. This is not a small thing. it's becaujse of this mainly, that when you place one of these new TVs next to a Plasma or LCD, the latter two appear to be dull by comparison. The human eye, though, is a very tricky thing, you actually have to be doing a direct A to B comparsion, else the eye will compensate to make the other two sets appear wonderfully bright. This, I believe, is why Mits wants this TV right up close and personal to those TVs.

Now regarding those transformations, I will just sketch them in this note and come back later with an attached image of a Mathematica Notebook to show the details of calculations for this set. These primaries form a basis set for a cerftain vector space and as such, any other vector in that space can be represented a linear combination of this basis. Indirectly, I have already shown you how to construct the matrix that transforms the set {R,G,B} into the set {X,Y,Z}. Let A be the 3 by 3 matrix for this transformation, then:

{X,Y,Z} = A.{R,G,B}

Where the latter equation is a Matrix equation, where the Matrix A is plucked directly from the Tristimulus Tables.
Now it's well know that there exists a certain matrix B, say, that Transforms the RGB709 Basis to XYZ. You have probably seen that matrix because it's famous:

B = .412 .357 .180
.212 .715 .072
.019 .119 .950

Where for brevity, I have truncated some significant digits. In any case, we can write:

{X,Y,Z} =B.{RGB709}

These two sets of matrix equations allow us to express the two basis sets in terms of each other, thus:

{R,G,B} =Inverse[A].B.{RGB709}

Note that in particular, if the vector {RGB709} is the D65 whate point, it will be denoted by {1,1,1}; and the last equation above allows you to calculate what linear combination of our laser set gives the D65 white point.
That's enough for now, we will explore more later.

I wish you two people (and I use this word lightly) would take your argument to another thread! NOW

I wish you two people (and I use this word lightly) would take your argument to another thread! NOW

I for one am enjoying the discussion. I believe it’s very relevant to this new technology.

jaseman.

I really worry about a person who could read my last post and think of no better response than to shout at me and banish me from this thread. It's particularly ironic when you went so far as to juxtapose my text(full of relevant content) to your vulgar shout which contributes nothing at all.
BTW, you don't get to argue about Phyhsics---Physics is what it is.

I for one am enjoying the discussion. I believe it’s very relevant to this new technology.

I find it interesting as well. It's a slow moving thread since there are not a lot of hands on views with the new set so I don't see the discussion as a distraction.

Physics is what it is.

Well said, but could you both dial back a bit? The arrogant one-ups-man-ship is becoming tiresome, particularly for the layperson.

While I can understand the overall concept of what you are trying to convey (and I am probably in the minority here so I speak for myself), I find the overall tone of your pissing match (both of the involved parties) to be un-necessary.

jaseman.

I really worry about a person who could read my last post and think of no better response than to shout at me and banish me from this thread. It's particularly ironic when you went so far as to juxtapose my text(full of relevant content) to your vulgar shout which contributes nothing at all.
BTW, you don't get to argue about Phyhsics---Physics is what it is.

Sorry if I hurt anyones ears by yelling so loudly. :eek:

...What I like about Laservue and Mitsubushi is that they have, in my opinion, delivered on what they promised with this technology. Its new technolog and exciting and I get that feeling from Laservue that the industry is truly taking that next step into the future on display technology.

Depends on how you look at it. It seems more like an upgraded technology than new. It still uses a DLP chip and from my understanding it uses the same microdisplay screens which display SSE. The difference is the light source is laser. I wouldn't have considered an LED DLP as new technology as you have classified it and I'm not sure if you can call Laservue 'new technology' like one would classify OLED or FED.

My point remains that there are standards for saturation and extending the gamut beyond the standards is not necessarily a good thing. If you are reproducing video, you need the correct gamut for that purpose, not greater. It really is not that complicated a concept, and none of the physics nor the math changes the fact that the rec709 gamut is what it is. Now if you want to reproduce something other than video, an extended gamut is useful. The set just needs to be able to be calibrated for each purpose.

My point remains that there are standards for saturation and extending the gamut beyond the standards is not necessarily a good thing. If you are reproducing video, you need the correct gamut for that purpose, not greater. It really is not that complicated a concept, and none of the physics nor the math changes the fact that the rec709 gamut is what it is. Now if you want to reproduce something other than video, an extended gamut is useful. The set just needs to be able to be calibrated for each purpose.

I am trying now to limit our discussion to a technical discussion. Some folks are tired of the sniping. You and they should notiice that in my technical discussion there was not one mention of any previous discussions with you. Let me just say finally that you very much incorrect in your discussions of Gamut. You need to understand that any larger Gamut contains the smaller ones as a subset. Any scene with only a subset of colors will be reproduced intact. The reverse is not true. A smaller Gamut device will definitely not be able to reproduce colors outside their Gamut.
Now let me humbly request that if you insist on continuing this debate, lets do it with equations and numbers so all can judge the validity of our claims. Note that I am not trying to belittle you in any way and I don't necessarily expect you to understand all these underpinnings. But when you are trying to influence others and possibly doing damage with unfounded verbal claims, someone needs to stand up. Let's call a truce. I have work to do.

Well said, but could you both dial back a bit? The arrogant one-ups-man-ship is becoming tiresome, particularly for the layperson.

While I can understand the overall concept of what you are trying to convey (and I am probably in the minority here so I speak for myself), I find the overall tone of your pissing match (both of the involved parties) to be un-necessary.

Spencjt,

I agree. i am no longer pissing, I am now just trying to share some technical insights. And I have done a great deal of work and unless the moderators forbid such, I intend to share that work on this thread.

Well said, but could you both dial back a bit? The arrogant one-ups-man-ship is becoming tiresome, particularly for the layperson.

While I can understand the overall concept of what you are trying to convey (and I am probably in the minority here so I speak for myself), I find the overall tone of your pissing match (both of the involved parties) to be un-necessary.

+1 and well said.

I don't, as yet, have anyone on an ignore list, but these two ultra geeks were edging ever close to it.

Maybe PMs were a better way of going?

Seggers

http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/L65A90_specsheet.pdf

I am trying now to limit our discussion to a technical discussion. Some folks are tired of the sniping. You and they should notiice that in my technical discussion there was not one mention of any previous discussions with you. Let me just say finally that you very much incorrect in your discussions of Gamut. You need to understand that any larger Gamut contains the smaller ones as a subset. Any scene with only a subset of colors will be reproduced intact. The reverse is not true. A smaller Gamut device will definitely not be able to reproduce colors outside their Gamut.
Now let me humbly request that if you insist on continuing this debate, lets do it with equations and numbers so all can judge the validity of our claims. Note that I am not trying to belittle you in any way and I don't necessarily expect you to understand all these underpinnings. But when you are trying to influence others and possibly doing damage with unfounded verbal claims, someone needs to stand up. Let's call a truce. I have work to do.

That assumes that the gamut is selectable. In the past, many sets have reproduced primaries at the extended gamut and have not been able to produce the correct mappings. Mitsubishi has not, in the past on DLP sets, given us the ability to adjust saturation, only luminance, on primaries and secondaries. If they have implemented a true CMS, or have selectable gamut like some other sets now do, there is no problem with extended gamut. This is all speculation because we don't know yet. My whole point was very simple. Extended gamut is only OK when the set can reproduce the correct gamut. It is irrelevant, and can be a problem, if the set cannot be limited to rec709 for such sources. More saturation is not always better. The right saturation should be the target.

Not trying to have a pissing match at all, nor to one-up anyone. Just trying to point out common mis-understandings about gamut and saturation. Saturation sounds like a good thing, but if the primaries do not model the CIE standard observer curves, the consequences can be hard to predict.

So I'm gonna watch this thread, and the life of a LV, from afar.

I just bought me a Diamond 73 for a great price! :D

Seggers


Please share the name of your dealer. PM me if you don't want to post it.

Thanks!

The pdf file posted above suggests that the Laservue set has the same CMS controls as the other Mits do, which would not allow precise conformance with Rec709 color points. Nor is there any indication of selectable color gamuts.

Of course, the pdf is just a summary and not definitive. Yet, if new controls were present, one would think Mits would promote them as such.

so i'm gonna watch this thread, and the life of a lv, from afar.

I just bought me a diamond 73 for a great price! :d

seggers

please share the name of your dealer. Pm me if you don't want to post it.

Thanks!

+1

The pdf file posted above suggests that the Laservue set has the same CMS controls as the other Mits do, which would not allow precise conformance with Rec709 color points. Nor is there any indication of selectable color gamuts.

Of course, the pdf is just a summary and not definitive. Yet, if new controls were present, one would think Mits would promote them as such.

If it has the same SM controls as the new bulb based models, you can set color points in the SM. You have to also modify grays in the SM as well. But that's always been the case with Mitsi. Not sure why they refuse to allow gray scale modification in the UM.

Spencjt,

I agree. i am no longer pissing, I am now just trying to share some technical insights. And I have done a great deal of work and unless the moderators forbid such, I intend to share that work on this thread.

I for one don't mind this discussion. I think it would make for a great one in the display calibration area. There would be alot of very informed folks that would chime in I'll bet.

Spencjt,

I agree. i am no longer pissing, I am now just trying to share some technical insights. And I have done a great deal of work and unless the moderators forbid such, I intend to share that work on this thread.
I think we all appreciate the work that you are doing, and the degree of knowledge that both you and lcaillo are bringing to the discussion. You are both passionate about your facts.

I consider myself technical insomuch as I have a VCR with a clock that is not flashing '12:00'. ;) I also understand the basics of saturation, but when you and lcaillo start throwing around calculations I (and I suspect a few others) am quickly lost.

I am intelligent enough to know that I know absolutely nothing on the subject of gamut and while I won't request that you and lcaillo dumb down your very interesting and spirited discourse, it may help many of us lurkers further our understanding if you could explain some of the terms that you are both using and perhaps provide an analogy.

I really do appreciate the effort that the two of you are putting into this, but what does gamut mean to a guy who only wants to turn on a TV and have it look as good (hopefully better) as what is currently available (or in my case WS65907 circa 2000).

Thanks again to both you and lcaillo.

Spence

I think we all appreciate the work that you are doing, and the degree of knowledge that both you and lcaillo are bringing to the discussion. You are both passionate about your facts.
I just wish we could have 2 things happen:

1) Stop the "I've got a PhD so I know everything and you don't" comments. This does appear to have been toned down finally.

2) Move the discussion to a parallel thread so the LaserVue specific discussion (you know, about the actual TV) aren't mixed in with this much more technical / theoretical discussion that really applies to more than just the LaserVues and probably does belong in a calibration thread.

well actually, this thread can basically cease to exist since the product is released and is available in several stores now.

This was a pre-release thread of speculation and plasma fan boyism.
I suggest someone greater than myself start an offical L65-A90 thread.

I just wish we could have 2 things happen:

1) Stop the "I've got a PhD so I know everything and you don't" comments. This does appear to have been toned down finally.

2) Move the discussion to a parallel thread so the LaserVue specific discussion (you know, about the actual TV) aren't mixed in with this much more technical / theoretical discussion that really applies to more than just the LaserVues and probably does belong in a calibration thread.

gsr,

Ph.D was mentioned only once in all these posts. This is purely a tech discussion focused solely on this new mitsubishi TV and it's capabilities. That's precisely what this thread is about. My initial impulse was to do this by PM or perhaps another thread but then I thought it's right here now where this sort of discussion is needed. As far as my comrade in debate is concerned, I am not angry with him nor he with me, I would assume. There are potential victims in these sorts of threads and if folks make important assertions, I think it's fair to demand some sort of corroboration.

Please share the name of your dealer. PM me if you don't want to post it.

Thanks!

Erm, Costco....

They had a bunch up on their site at the best price I've seen forever. They all went before 10am EDT today (Oct 7th).

Seggers

Perhaps it would do us all well to remember what the "S" in "AVS" stands for... :)

I've decided to buy one of these TVs tomorrow. I prefer to have the 73" since it fits flush on my custom cabinet, but I am anxious to explore the many aspects of this new tech first hand.

I've decided to buy one of these TVs tomorrow. I prefer to have the 73" since it fits flush on my custom cabinet, but I am anxious to explore the many aspects of this new tech first hand.
Well, based on the discussion it's probably safe to assume you'll be the first owner so you'll probably get to be the lucky one to start the owner's thread (though it may be a bit lonely for a while until some formal reviews come out and these become more widely available). I'm potentially willing to spend the money, but not without some favorable calibration reports.

I've decided to buy one of these TVs tomorrow. I prefer to have the 73" since it fits flush on my custom cabinet, but I am anxious to explore the many aspects of this new tech first hand.


We will be curious to see some spectral measurements and colorimetry for the set.

Good point. Bias lighting would at least have some functionality behind it.

I like the lights on the front.

This particular Gamut is very large, as I said, going well beyond, say Adobe RGB, to encompass many many colors we have not been able to reproduce before. This is not a small thing. It's because of this mainly, that when you place one of these new TVs next to a Plasma or LCD, the latter two appear to be dull by comparison. The human eye, though, is a very tricky thing, you actually have to be doing a direct A to B comparison, else the eye will compensate to make the other two sets appear wonderfully bright. This, I believe, is why Mits wants this TV right up close and personal to those TVs.

This is what Mitsubishi has been claiming all along for LaserVue - i.e., it displays colors that have heretofore not been able to be displayed by TV sets. The colors are real, the colors are there in the source, the human eye can see them, but current TVs do not display them. Because, as you say, the eye adjusts, if you are "wowed" by the LaserVue and then go home and watch your plasma, you'll still think both pictures are great. But side by side when properly calibrated, the Mitsubishi will put any other TV to shame - others will, in fact, look dull in comparison. Not due to oversaturation, but due to being able to display more of what we can naturally see in real life. We don't know that we are seeing "less" on TV because we're used to it. I wonder how it would be to watch a properly-calibrated TV displaying a life-size image of the room we are presently in and the people we are currently with? I suspect that the LaserVue would look more true to what your eyes are seeing (in terms of color depth and breadth) when you choose to look at the people rather than their image on the TV. I.e., the LaserVue image wouldn't look cartoony or garish; rather, a side-by-side plasma displaying the same scene would look duller than both the LaserVue and the people in the room.

Maybe it's like the difference between Kodachrome 25 (or Kodachrome 12 if you're old enough to remember it; I heard of it, but never saw it) and Ektachrome 64. More saturation and broader spectrum, IIRC from my old, old, old days of color photography (but we never could develop Kodachrome; that had to be sent in to a lab, because the developing requirements were too strict and controlled or expensive for home or school).

This is what Mitsubishi has been claiming all along for LaserVue - i.e., it displays colors that have heretofore not been able to be displayed by TV sets. The colors are real, the colors are there in the source, the human eye can see them, but current TVs do not display them. Because, as you say, the eye adjusts, if you are "wowed" by the LaserVue and then go home and watch your plasma, you'll still think both pictures are great. But side by side when properly calibrated, the Mitsubishi will put any other TV to shame - others will, in fact, look dull in comparison. Not due to oversaturation, but due to being able to display more of what we can naturally see in real life. We don't know that we are seeing "less" on TV because we're used to it. I wonder how it would be to watch a properly-calibrated TV displaying a life-size image of the room we are presently in and the people we are currently with? I suspect that the LaserVue would look more true to what your eyes are seeing (in terms of color depth and breadth) when you choose to look at the people rather than their image on the TV. I.e., the LaserVue image wouldn't look cartoony or garish; rather, a side-by-side plasma displaying the same scene would look duller than both the LaserVue and the people in the room.

Maybe it's like the difference between Kodachrome 25 (or Kodachrome 12 if you're old enough to remember it; I heard of it, but never saw it) and Ektachrome 64. More saturation and broader spectrum, IIRC from my old, old, old days of color photography (but we never could develop Kodachrome; that had to be sent in to a lab, because the developing requirements were too strict and controlled or expensive for home or school).

Marketing at its finest....reminds me of the post a week ago when the avs member called and had his Dish Turbo'ed HD....and all the sudden within 5 minutes he and his wife saw the colors "pop" on the screen.

There obviously are more colors in the world than can be presented on a current HDTV. However, as all sources currently abide by REC 709, there are not any more in the current source material, no matter what Mitsubishi or any salesman might say.

As John Stevens has spoken of his degrees and high end test equipment, I will certainly wait to see the printed reports of color accuracy from a High End SpectroRadioMeter that will have no trouble with the Spectral Energy of a Laser, say a Minolta CS-2000 or a PR-670 which he certainly must have given all the statements he has made. Anything less will certainly be open to scrutiny and given his stated background, would be beneath him to even supply.

At that point we will get a good idea of what the actual accuracy is (I have a good suspicion of the where the the color points will fall, but will withhold judgement until we see a real graph).

This is what Mitsubishi has been claiming all along for LaserVue - i.e., it displays colors that have heretofore not been able to be displayed by TV sets. The colors are real, the colors are there in the source.

Unfortunately that is not the case; wide gamut color is definitely NOT encoded in the source video. If you display REC 709 encoded video on a display running a wide gamut the color space gets expanded to the wide gamut which distorts the entire spectrum. Color that was captured and encoded in the video at specific levels will be displayed with quite different and exaggerated levels. If you like oversaturated color that’s fine but if you want accuracy you are in trouble as you can’t have it. Adjusting the color saturation control on the TV will not fix the problem. The only way to have accurate color is to have the display gamut match the video gamut.

Unfortunately that is not the case; wide gamut color is definitely NOT encoded in the source video. If you display REC 709 encoded video on a display running a wide gamut the color space gets expanded to the wide gamut which distorts the entire spectrum. Color that was captured and encoded in the video at specific levels will be displayed with quite different and exaggerated levels. If you like oversaturated color that’s fine but if you want accuracy you are in trouble as you can’t have it. Adjusting the color saturation control on the TV will not fix the problem. The only way to have accurate color is to have the display gamut match the video gamut.


Thank you. This is the point that I keep making.

Okay, I think I have a basic understanding of gamut, here is my question (please correct me if I am incorrect in my usage of the terms). At this point in time, is talk of the LaserVue display expanding the gamut of the encoded media speculation? Is there a chance that color gamut is not being expanded so much as it is being shown with greater level of brightness?

...or am I misunderstanding how gamut works. Does increased overall brightness alter the range and saturation of color?

Again please correct me if I am not understanding this. I don't want to derail any of the facts due to my ignorance on the subject. I am only trying to gain a better understanding.

Thanks,
Spence

The only way to have accurate color is to have the display gamut match the video gamut.

The question then remains, can the LaserVue be adjusted to match the 709 gamut?

Depends on how you look at it. It seems more like an upgraded technology than new. It still uses a DLP chip and from my understanding it uses the same microdisplay screens which display SSE. The difference is the light source is laser. I wouldn't have considered an LED DLP as new technology as you have classified it and I'm not sure if you can call Laservue 'new technology' like one would classify OLED or FED.

I say its new because there has never been a commericial TV set to use Laser technology. Not even current DLP, Lcos, LCD etc. Also, I have never seen TV produce the colors that I saw on the Mits Laservue set, maybe with the exception of the little OLED set.

Yes, the SSE in there, that's not good for me, but for some its not a problem. Anyway, Mits never promised that there wouldn't be SSE. Again, they have delivered what they promised. The set is as advertised.

Here I have used an existing Chromaticity Diagram and use CS3 to draw in the new Mitsubishi Gamut. This is based on the set {620nm, 532nm, 460nm}:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/johnblue3/chromaticitycopy.jpg

As Calibrators mainly keep speaking, I would remind folks that all the Technical folks at Novalux and Mitsubishi were/are free to choose a 560nm Green Laser. Had they done so, the Gamut would have mapped directly onto the Adobe RGB Gamut. They chose to add value by extending the Gamut. Now we are told over and over again that these Mits folks don't have a clue. Enjoy.

I say its new because there has never been a commericial TV set to use Laser technology. Not even current DLP, Lcos, LCD etc. Also, I have never seen TV produce the colors that I saw on the Mits Laservue set, maybe with the exception of the little OLED set.

Yes, the SSE in there, that's not good for me, but for some its not a problem. Anyway, Mits never promised that there wouldn't be SSE. Again, they have delivered what they promised. The set is as advertised.

You saw the Mits in person? I'd be interested in your comparisions.

I understand your frustration with companies marketing departments being deceptive but keep in mind it's no different with others as well. Both Panasonic and Samsung have their plasmas listed with a contrast ratio of 1,000,000:1. Samsung's local dimming LCDs have this same rating and can produce perfect blacks on certain scenes however their plasmas cannot. If you tag Pioneer for their deceptive marketing then you need to add Panasonic and Samsung in their as well. I agree it is misleading as well, but unfortunately in this day and age you have to take any companies words with a grain of salt. :(

As Calibrators mainly keep speaking, I would remind folks that all the Technical folks at Novalux and Mitsubishi were/are free to choose a 560nm Green Laser. Had they done so, the Gamut would have mapped directly onto the Adobe RGB Gamut. They chose to add value by extending the Gamut. Now we are told over and over again that these Mits folks don't have a clue. Enjoy.

really? I've been following this thread and I don't recall ppl saying Mits folks don't have a clue (except wrt to the pricing). I do see ppl being skeptical about whether the Mits can be adjusted to show the HD gamut accurately. That seems like a legit concern to me. CE displays aren't made to be reference displays. They're made to sell to the folks looking at them at the store. A high price tag doesn't guarantee accuracy, either (ask JVC RS1 owners). Whatever your technical merits, you'd be more convincing if you don't mischaracterize other ppl's argument and stab at straw men.

I'm also unconvinced by your seeming assertion that because you know color theory, you can make extrapolation about how this set is going to perform in practice based on specs. Your attitude that ppl who disagree just don't know what they're talking about does not help. That may very well be true, but I lean towards the skeptics until proven otherwise.

The thing is: laservue does sound genuinely exciting (I'm really hoping the price drops quickly-ish and it succeeds enough to drive R&D for use in FP). However, you seem so invested in it being great, to the point of buying one sight unseen, that I wonder if you'll even be able to evaluate it objectively, and I'll have to take that into account when reading your review.

really? I've been following this thread and I don't recall ppl saying Mits folks don't have a clue (except wrt to the pricing). I do see ppl being skeptical about whether the Mits can be adjusted to show the HD gamut accurately. That seems like a legit concern to me. CE displays aren't made to be reference displays. They're made to sell to the folks looking at them at the store. A high price tag doesn't guarantee accuracy, either (ask JVC RS1 owners). Whatever your technical merits, you'd be more convincing if you don't mischaracterize other ppl's argument and stab at straw men.

I'm also unconvinced by your seeming assertion that because you know color theory, you can make extrapolation about how this set is going to perform in practice based on specs. Your attitude that ppl who disagree just don't know what they're talking about does not help. That may very well be true, but I lean towards the skeptics until proven otherwise.

The thing is: laservue does sound genuinely exciting (I'm really hoping the price drops quickly-ish and it succeeds enough to drive R&D for use in FP). However, you seem so invested in it being great, to the point of buying one sight unseen, that I wonder if you'll even be able to evaluate it objectively, and I'll have to take that into account when reading your review.

Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Okay, I think I have a basic understanding of gamut, here is my question (please correct me if I am incorrect in my usage of the terms). At this point in time, is talk of the LaserVue display expanding the gamut of the encoded media speculation? Is there a chance that color gamut is not being expanded so much as it is being shown with greater level of brightness?

...or am I misunderstanding how gamut works. Does increased overall brightness alter the range and saturation of color?

Again please correct me if I am not understanding this. I don't want to derail any of the facts due to my ignorance on the subject. I am only trying to gain a better understanding.

Thanks,
Spence

Refer to the CIE diagram that John posted. Think of it as a slice of a three dimensional diagram where the missing dimension is luminance. The CIE colorimetry chart posted shows the color of the primaries (points at the vertices of the triangle). Saturation is how pure the color is, rouhly how far from the white point in the direction of the color you are discussing. This is different than luminance of a color, which is what the Perfect Color system on the Mits sets adjusts. The Perfect Tint system adjusts the hue of the primaries and secondaries (with some affect on the sat). The color control roughly approximates overall saturation.

Gamut is the range of colors that can be produced with given primaries, and is the area within the triangle. You can only produce colors up to the saturation level of the primaries. Ideally, the color gamut should match the source, which in the case of HD is rec709. Some sets, like the current Sonys, have extended gamut, but allow you to select which gamut to use. Using the extended gamut with a smaller gamut source leaves you with oversaturated colors. Some would like that. Those interested in accurate reproduction would not.

The other issue that I pointed out is still open. That is what happens with a very saturated primary in terms of its spectral distribution. Lasers have a very narrow spectral power. The assumption in reproducing video is that the display primaries have spectral distributions similar to the CIE standard observer curves. How this translates into intermediate colors is uncertain. The color decoder has to take this into account in some way. I cannot comment on what Mitsubishi is doing to deal with this, nor even if they have some way to use the correct gamut. We'll see. Hopefully they got it right this time. They made progress in the last generation of lamp based sets by at least enabling some of the color management items in the service mode that had not been effective in the past. Maybe the get it right this time.

really? I've been following this thread and I don't recall ppl saying Mits folks don't have a clue (except wrt to the pricing). I do see ppl being skeptical about whether the Mits can be adjusted to show the HD gamut accurately. That seems like a legit concern to me. CE displays aren't made to be reference displays. They're made to sell to the folks looking at them at the store. A high price tag doesn't guarantee accuracy, either (ask JVC RS1 owners). Whatever your technical merits, you'd be more convincing if you don't mischaracterize other ppl's argument and stab at straw men.

I'm also unconvinced by your seeming assertion that because you know color theory, you can make extrapolation about how this set is going to perform in practice based on specs. Your attitude that ppl who disagree just don't know what they're talking about does not help. That may very well be true, but I lean towards the skeptics until proven otherwise.

The thing is: laservue does sound genuinely exciting (I'm really hoping the price drops quickly-ish and it succeeds enough to drive R&D for use in FP). However, you seem so invested in it being great, to the point of buying one sight unseen, that I wonder if you'll even be able to evaluate it objectively, and I'll have to take that into account when reading your review.

I'll reserve judgment on claims until which time John obtains his own unit and run tests, or better yet an 'in depth' review of LaserVue in an industry publication.

Erm, Costco....

They had a bunch up on their site at the best price I've seen forever. They all went before 10am EDT today (Oct 7th).

Seggers


Costco currently shows the 73835 for $3,299.99 + $146 for shipping. Far from the best price I've seen. Did they raise the price over the last few days? I'd be interested in knowing what you paid.

Never mind, I just saw the price Costco was selling the 73835 for at a deals web site. That was one hell of a discount. Wish I'd seen it in time.

I used to follow this thread until the $7K price was revealed so forgive me for not following anymore. But I was curious if these are in stores yet? If so, how are people liking them?

They're in one store (in San Antonio), as of last week. Nobody's purchased one yet.

Nobody's purchased one yet.

Shouldn't that be "nobody's purchased it yet"? ;)

They're in one store (in San Antonio), as of last week. Nobody's purchased one yet.
they are in multiple stores.
Ken Cranes and Living Spaces confirmed and no doubt many others.
People have certainly purchased this TV already.

Costco currently shows the 73835 for $3,299.99 + $146 for shipping. Far from the best price I've seen. Did they raise the price over the last few days? I'd be interested in knowing what you paid.

There's a costco thread knocking around here somewhere. Started yesterday.

Had them listed as 2299, and I paid a lot less than that for mine, all in.

BTW the listed price you have is still better than most. All suppliers seem to have lined up behind the 3800 price.

Edit: Never mind, I really should read to the end before replying....

Seggers

Seggers...

How come you managed to pay a lot less than 2299 !

Just out of interest, what price did you pay all in ?

M.

I went back to Bjorn's today and they were kind enough to hook up a BD player and spin a few discs. I changed the setting to Natural, Low Color Temp, contrast/brightness/color were reduced to the mid point. I won't disclose the factory settings, other than the contrast was at full! Here are my observations.

1. The opening scene of Casino Royale is black and white. I saw no color tint to the black and white photography. I've seen a number of RPTV's over the years that tint B&W green, this one did not.

2. Once the settings were toned down the color was very impressive. It's hard to describe, the best I can do is to say I saw more variation in the shades of color than what I'm used to. I have a Samsung HLS 6188 that was calibrated by UMR. It has nearly perfect color points. I'd have to say the range of color on the Laservue is superior, Mits raised the bar here.

3. I didn't notice any motion blur, but to be honest I didn't put that on my list so I wasn't looking for it. Regardless, I viewed a few scenes with fast motion and I was not distracted by motion blur.

4. The black level and shadow detail were the best I've seen in a fixed pixel RPTV, but they fell well short of CRT quality. To me, the 9G Kuro and the current Panasonic plasma are superior in this catagory to the Laservue.

5. Even after I toned down the setting the screen still displayed a crawling, grainy texture when displaying large areas of white. I could still see it at 10 feet.

6. The vertical viewing angle is more restricted than the horizontal. But, since the Laservue is elevated I could only go down to check this. What happens to the picture when you stand up, when it's at eye level while sitting, is unknown.

This is a really nice set, but it is not revolutionary enough in my view. For this kind of money it ought to have no screen crawl, and better blacks, to augment it's wonderful color. If it was $500-1000 more than a similar sized led or bulb DLP, I'd buy the 73" version when it arrived.

they are in multiple stores.
Ken Cranes and Living Spaces confirmed and no doubt many others.
People have certainly purchased this TV already.

Perhaps. I thought Bjorns was the only one with units for sale and the others just had the demo/display models. I could be wrong.

And yes, certainly people have purchased this TV, but nobody has purchased one and then reported their findings here (yet) - which is what he was inquiring.

Perhaps. I thought Bjorns was the only one with units for sale and the others just had the demo/display models. I could be wrong.

I thought one went to Bjorns, and the other went on tour. Maybe there are more now.

Refer to the CIE diagram that John posted. Think of it as a slice of a three dimensional diagram where the missing dimension is luminance. The CIE colorimetry chart posted shows the color of the primaries (points at the vertices of the triangle). Saturation is how pure the color is, rouhly how far from the white point in the direction of the color you are discussing. This is different than luminance of a color, which is what the Perfect Color system on the Mits sets adjusts. The Perfect Tint system adjusts the hue of the primaries and secondaries (with some affect on the sat). The color control roughly approximates overall saturation.

Gamut is the range of colors that can be produced with given primaries, and is the area within the triangle. You can only produce colors up to the saturation level of the primaries. Ideally, the color gamut should match the source, which in the case of HD is rec709. Some sets, like the current Sonys, have extended gamut, but allow you to select which gamut to use. Using the extended gamut with a smaller gamut source leaves you with oversaturated colors. Some would like that. Those interested in accurate reproduction would not.

The other issue that I pointed out is still open. That is what happens with a very saturated primary in terms of its spectral distribution. Lasers have a very narrow spectral power. The assumption in reproducing video is that the display primaries have spectral distributions similar to the CIE standard observer curves. How this translates into intermediate colors is uncertain. The color decoder has to take this into account in some way. I cannot comment on what Mitsubishi is doing to deal with this, nor even if they have some way to use the correct gamut. We'll see. Hopefully they got it right this time. They made progress in the last generation of lamp based sets by at least enabling some of the color management items in the service mode that had not been effective in the past. Maybe the get it right this time.

Great explanation! Thanks!

Spence

they are in multiple stores.
Ken Cranes and Living Spaces confirmed and no doubt many others.
People have certainly purchased this TV already.

The question is not if they have purchased them, they have not mass produced them. Here in San Antonio I understand a few have been ordered (two with the wall mounts) they are just waiting for them to arrive. As for the one at Bjorn it is only for display and they are still running the loop provided by Mitts. I keep trying to get them to connect a blu-ray or cable to get an idea of what it will look like with normal use. Not that it matters, its out of my price range.

As for the one at Bjorn it is only for display and they are still running the loop provided by Mitts. I keep trying to get them to connect a blu-ray or cable to get an idea of what it will look like with normal use. Not that it matters, its out of my price range.

You must not be asking nicely.

I went back to Bjorn's today and they were kind enough to hook up a BD player and spin a few discs.

If it has the same SM controls as the new bulb based models, you can set color points in the SM. You have to also modify grays in the SM as well. But that's always been the case with Mitsi. Not sure why they refuse to allow gray scale modification in the UM.

Good to know things have changed - such SM access re color was not the case with my 831, though grayscale was.

2. Once the settings were toned down the color was very impressive. It's hard to describe, the best I can do is to say I saw more variation in the shades of color than what I'm used to. I have a Samsung HLS 6188 that was calibrated by UMR. It has nearly perfect color points. I'd have to say the range of color on the Laservue is superior, Mits raised the bar here.


A wide gamut will give you more variations in shades of color, but it’s not accurate.
Since you say the Lazerview is more colorful then your Samsung which you say has known good color accuracy (and I know the Samy DLP’s can be accurate), how can the Lazerview be considered “superior”? I can understand you may have a personal preference for the oversaturated look, but others may consider it big negative.

A wide gamut will give you more variations in shades of color, but it’s not accurate.
Since you say the Lazerview is more colorful then your Samsung which you say has known good color accuracy (and I know the Samy DLP’s can be accurate), how can the Lazerview be considered “superior”? I can understand you may have a personal preference for the oversaturated look, but others may consider it big negative.

I mislead you. The Laservue is not more colorful in terms of saturation. It appeared to display more shades of red than I've seen before. I saw gold that was closer to reality. How accurate the colors were is another question. Still, the ability to display more variations of the shade of color is a step forward.

But If the color isn't there to begin with on the content, how can it show it?

Seggers...

How come you managed to pay a lot less than 2299 !

Just out of interest, what price did you pay all in ?

M.

My bad, I was reffering to the $3,299.99 + $146 amount listed in the message that I quoted.

I did pay the 2299. Or I will have when they actually charge me for it....

Seggers

Originally posted by Owen:
I can understand you may have a personal preference for the oversaturated look, but others may consider it big negative.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. This whole thread has gotten out of control in a quest for scientific perfection. What it really boils down to is personal preference. Everybody was slamming the original display at Bjorns for the set being in "torch" mode like BB or CC. However, that's what the majority of consumers seem to prefer. So what if a set looked great in "torch" mode, it's one of the settings. Torch mode seems to be looked upon as a crime in this forum. It's all personal preference. :)

Torch mode seems to be looked upon as a crime in this forum.

This is something I've been pondering since getting my (first) DLP set a couple months ago (not really Laservue specific, but DLP, so still relevent). In the "old days" with CRT, there was a downside to too much output... having the contrast set too high could cause the CRTs to bloom (degrading PQ), and overdriving a CRT could also affect its lifespan. But I have reconsidered this stance since acquiring the DLP. In fact, it seems to me that there could be benefits to a high setting: since the light output of each pixel is determined by each individual mirror through PWM, it seems possible that a high contrast/low brightness setting could give better graduation of light levels. The timing is going to be digitally based (and they are indeed extremely small time slices). It seems plausible to me that having the greatest separation between the setting for absolute black and absolute white would provide more accurate graduations in between, as each specific output value will be spaced wider.

There is certainly "right" and "wrong" for color and hue... the color should match the color intended. And sharpness of course should be adjsuted such that it doesn't induce any ringing (though with my Mits set, it seems that minimizing sharpness actually seems to blur the image, not just reduce the amount of edge enhancement that's added). But when it comes to brightness and contrast, seems to me that whatever "looks good" to the user would still be "correct", as long as you aren't crushnig blacks and whites. In fact, if my ponderings in the first paragraph have any validity, it seems that setting contrast too low could, in a very slight way, "crush grays".

Lowell,

You have a point but I think you're overlooking something. The optimal solution is a set that is capable of being accurate. I concur that most consumers are looking for something that is flashy, not accurate. I'm all for whatever floats your personal boat. However, if the set isn't capable of some degree of accuracy a purist like myself isn't interested. The typical consumer would still have the option of jacking up the settings to suit their preference of flashy.

I'm not pushing accuracy on anyone. I just want an accurate picture to be one of the options.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. This whole thread has gotten out of control in a quest for scientific perfection. What it really boils down to is personal preference. Everybody was slamming the original display at Bjorns for the set being in "torch" mode like BB or CC. However, that's what the majority of consumers seem to prefer. So what if a set looked great in "torch" mode, it's one of the settings. Torch mode seems to be looked upon as a crime in this forum. It's all personal preference. :)

I have been selling, servicing, installing and calibrating displays for nearly three decades. What I have found is that most consumers DO NOT prefer torch mode type settings ONCE THEY ARE MODERATELY EDUCATED. By this I mean that once consumers experience the advantages of a properly calibrated display, even just what I call BULC (Basic User Level Calibration), they will prefer it over torch mode.

The reason displays are delivered with blown out settings is that the first impression relative to other products is definitely dominated by contrast and color intensity. A secondary consideration is the acquired preference for flesh tones to trend to pink. Both preferences are moderated by the preference for accurate color reproduction once the display is installed and not compared to other products, and the first impression is irrelevant.

Once consumers figure out that they can have colors that are more like real life, can have more shadow detail while having good contrast, and have whites that look more realistic rather than blue, they love it. Some just want to go back to blowtorch mode, and that is fine, but the assumption that consumer prefer this to a large degree is uninformed. It is the first 5 seconds of viewing a display where this is of value to a manufacturer, where competitive impressions are defined.

The quest for "scientifc perfection" is simply an attemp to have an objective starting point for displays. It is not a matter of denying personal preference. Personal preference is a perfectly valid reason for setting a display the way you want to. That does not mean that there is not a lack of understanding in most preference, that if corrected leads most consumers to actually prefer more accurate reproduction.

Torch mode is not a crime. In fact, I do not calibrate the displays in our showrooms, generally, because we do not include calibraton for free in the price of a set. Also, since not every visitor is going to be an educated buyer, those 5 second impressions are important. Being able to educate the buyers that we can is also very important. In other words, there is a place for torch mode as well as proper calibration, as well as BULC.

This is something I've been pondering since getting my (first) DLP set a couple months ago (not really Laservue specific, but DLP, so still relevent). In the "old days" with CRT, there was a downside to too much output... having the contrast set too high could cause the CRTs to bloom (degrading PQ), and overdriving a CRT could also affect its lifespan. But I have reconsidered this stance since acquiring the DLP. In fact, it seems to me that there could be benefits to a high setting: since the light output of each pixel is determined by each individual mirror through PWM, it seems possible that a high contrast/low brightness setting could give better graduation of light levels. The timing is going to be digitally based (and they are indeed extremely small time slices). It seems plausible to me that having the greatest separation between the setting for absolute black and absolute white would provide more accurate graduations in between, as each specific output value will be spaced wider.

There is certainly "right" and "wrong" for color and hue... the color should match the color intended. And sharpness of course should be adjsuted such that it doesn't induce any ringing (though with my Mits set, it seems that minimizing sharpness actually seems to blur the image, not just reduce the amount of edge enhancement that's added). But when it comes to brightness and contrast, seems to me that whatever "looks good" to the user would still be "correct", as long as you aren't crushnig blacks and whites. In fact, if my ponderings in the first paragraph have any validity, it seems that setting contrast too low could, in a very slight way, "crush grays".

The problem is that torch mode generally does make colors inaccurate, and generally does crush blacks, and in some technologies crushes whites or causes a color shift in the whites. Just a little user level adjustment can get rid of much of the problems in dynamic range. Color can often be improved as well, but accurate color reproduction can usually be very much improved with the right equipment and experience found with an experienced calibration profesisonal.

My suggestion is always to get what one can for free by using the resources available to learn to do as much visual calibration oneself as possible. From there decide if using a pro to get the rest of what can be realized is of value. There are great resources here for getting lots of improvement in most displays with some learning about what is necessary for proper reproduction of images.

Torch mode seems to be looked upon as a crime in this forum.

Because it is a crime, duh ;}~
As much as when broadcasters punch up the color or DNR the video to make it pop. This happened with the Olympics, at least in my neck of the woods. On my HD tube most of the other channels had nice color and detail then BOOM DNR Uber-color saturationfest, not pleasant.
Also I make the comparison of torch mode to over compressed clipped music, folks unaware of the lo-fi quality will just assume it's better because it is louder, due to lack of knowledge and experience.
I'll say ditto for those that can even stand watching Torch mode for long, must have Eyes of Steel!
Yes, personal preference is valid and important until one realize ones preference could be wrong then that preference can frequently change.

Anyhow, I've been on the fence about a tv for years. I just want one that has correct color, great detail, and can give me great black without increased contrast. So far nada, been hoping this "Lazervue" would do that.

Here is my preference, I hate and loath 'bright' settings else I'm just blinking or squinting the whole time.

Should be interesting to see if anyone has prior experience with the Samsung LED how they compare it with this new toy.

Best Regards
KvE

The problem is that torch mode generally does make colors inaccurate, and generally does crush blacks, and in some technologies crushes whites or causes a color shift in the whites.

You seem to be referring to "torch mode" as a collection of settings that typically includes over saturated colors and brightness/contrast settings that crush blacks/whites. But my question is, on a DLP set, what's wrong with a high contrast setting as long as you don't over do it to the extent of crushing blacks and whites? Can color not be calibrated to the correct color space while at the same time maximizing dynamic range?

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. This whole thread has gotten out of control in a quest for scientific perfection. What it really boils down to is personal preference. Everybody was slamming the original display at Bjorns for the set being in "torch" mode like BB or CC. However, that's what the majority of consumers seem to prefer. So what if a set looked great in "torch" mode, it's one of the settings. Torch mode seems to be looked upon as a crime in this forum. It's all personal preference. :)

Actually, I don't think torch mode is the preference of the average person either. When they get it home, they probably turn down the brightness/contrast, or at least use "Normal" instead of "Dynamic" -- that is, if they can find the setting or someone finds it for them,

Torch mode in a typical LCD and DLP will burn your retina out in a typical viewing environment at night and makes the colors too blue. Most people can see that if they're shown or find the control themselves. I think most people will prefer the more reasonable picture of "Normal" mode, although "Movie" is probably "too dark". The main reason for torch mode is the Best Buy factor. Mfgrs can't control the viewing environment at the store, which is typically too bright with flourescent lamps everywhere, and they know given two sets side by side, people will tend to gravitate towards the brighter one. So you get an arms race in brightness, which is why RPTVs tend to lose when seen next to LCDs and plasmas.

You seem to be referring to "torch mode" as a collection of settings that typically includes over saturated colors and brightness/contrast settings that crush blacks/whites. But my question is, on a DLP set, what's wrong with a high contrast setting as long as you don't over do it to the extent of crushing blacks and whites? Can color not be calibrated to the correct color space while at the same time maximizing dynamic range?

Nothing is wrong with maximizing dynamic range. In fact, this is one of the most important parts of calibration. The notion that reducing contrast is a goal of calibration is simply wrong. What happens in most OOB modes in most displays, however, is that the color and shadow and possibly white detail are sacrificed to enhance contrast. The goal of calibration is to maintain as much dynamic range as possible while getting all of the information that the display can reproduce, with accurate color.

Look at the luma response and color temp of typical sets OOB. Contrast is typically enhanced at the expense of accurate reproduction. The trade-off is often not preferable, and with the high contrast of modern displays, not needed for anything other than comparative marketing.

In reference to me stating the torch mode is preferred. That reference is based on CC and BB setting their TVs on that where their consumers look at them. I would guess the vast majority of TV sets are sold in those types of stores, not the Bjorns stores of this world. What percentage of TV sets around world would someone guess have been professionally calibrated? I would guess a very small percentage. Mits whole point was here is what our set looks like out of the box. I still don't think it deserves the premium they are asking for RPTV DLP tech, but none the less, it looked very good out of the box.

My other point is this. Can some people here even appreciate what they have or are they just constantly looking for faults with their stuff? Since coming here to the AVS forums I have found out the following.

1. I can’t possibly appreciate my TV in my main veiwing area because,
a. I have an RPTV LCD and it can’t come close to producing the correct blacks.
b. It is just a 50” 720P and I set 14’-15’ away from it.
c. and I have heard why bother with a 73” 1080P Mits because 14’ – 15’ away is to far to really notice a difference.

2. I have also found out I really don’t have a home theater because my 7.1 speakers,
a. Are not in the exact locations that Dolby or DTS recommends
b. Are not located in a dedicated room with a TV so it’s not, “by definition” , a home theater according to some of the posts I have seen in this forum.

3. I am afraid to mention I just picked up a 46” 1080P Sony LCD flat panel for the spare bedroom and a cheap HTIB to go with it because,
a. I still set 10’ away and according to posts I have seen here, that’s too far.
b. An HTIB isn’t really a good surround system, you have to have xxxxxx.
c. It is by definition an isolated room, but could I call it a home theater because it doubles as a bedroom.

I am usually one of the most “the glass is half empty” people I know, but coming here makes me feel like “the glass is half full”. :)

What percentage of TV sets around world would someone guess have been professionally calibrated? I would guess a very small percentage.

The number would start with 0.x % and is probably 0.0x% or even 0.00x%, where x is the number, unless someone wants to state that "from the factory" is professional calibration :rolleyes:

In reference to me stating the torch mode is preferred. That reference is based on CC and BB setting their TVs on that where their consumers look at them. I would guess the vast majority of TV sets are sold in those types of stores, not the Bjorns stores of this world. What percentage of TV sets around world would someone guess have been professionally calibrated? I would guess a very small percentage. Mits whole point was here is what our set looks like out of the box. I still don't think it deserves the premium they are asking for RPTV DLP tech, but none the less, it looked very good out of the box.

My other point is this. Can some people here even appreciate what they have or are they just constantly looking for faults with their stuff? Since coming here to the AVS forums I have found out the following.

1. I can’t possibly appreciate my TV in my main veiwing area because,
a. I have an RPTV LCD and it can’t come close to producing the correct blacks.
b. It is just a 50” 720P and I set 14’-15’ away from it.
c. and I have heard why bother with a 73” 1080P Mits because 14’ – 15’ away is to far to really notice a difference.

2. I have also found out I really don’t have a home theater because my 7.1 speakers,
a. Are not in the exact locations that Dolby or DTS recommends
b. Are not located in a dedicated room with a TV so it’s not, “by definition” , a home theater according to some of the posts I have seen in this forum.

3. I am afraid to mention I just picked up a 46” 1080P Sony LCD flat panel for the spare bedroom and a cheap HTIB to go with it because,
a. I still set 10’ away and according to posts I have seen here, that’s too far.
b. An HTIB isn’t really a good surround system, you have to have xxxxxx.
c. It is by definition an isolated room, but could I call it a home theater because it doubles as a bedroom.

I am usually one of the most “the glass is half empty” people I know, but coming here makes me feel like “the glass is half full”. :)

To thyself be true LowellG! :)

And remember, the glass is always full. ...half is a liquid/half is a gas ;)

I mislead you. The Laservue is not more colorful in terms of saturation. It appeared to display more shades of red than I've seen before. I saw gold that was closer to reality. How accurate the colors were is another question. Still, the ability to display more variations of the shade of color is a step forward.

When showing REC 709 video on a wide gamut display all color intensities will be scaled up, however only the heavily saturated colors (not present in a lot of video content) will look noticeably oversaturated, more subtle colors will just have a richer look which many will find appealing, but it cannot be accurate.

Domestic video sources use 8bit colour so there is a maximum of 256 levels of red, green and blue possible for a total color palate of 16.77 million colors, however video encoded to standard only uses the range 16-235 (to allow head and toe room and avoid clipping) for a total of 10.50 million colors. Most displays these days scale the video signal up to 10bit or higher to avoid rounding errors when the video is processed and to interpolate additional shades (smooth color transitions) to help control color banding or posterisation, however the display should always maintain the relationship between the levels encoded in the video and the onscreen image, to do that the display must use the REC 709 gamut.

You really cannot assume this. They may have the ability to map to 709 gamut like some other sets do. At this time we don't have enough info to know what they are doing.

Since coming here to the AVS forums I have found out the following.

1. I can’t possibly appreciate my TV in my main veiwing area because,
a. I have an RPTV LCD and it can’t come close to producing the correct blacks.
b. It is just a 50” 720P and I set 14’-15’ away from it.
c. and I have heard why bother with a 73” 1080P Mits because 14’ – 15’ away is to far to really notice a difference.

2. I have also found out I really don’t have a home theater because my 7.1 speakers,
a. Are not in the exact locations that Dolby or DTS recommends
b. Are not located in a dedicated room with a TV so it’s not, “by definition” , a home theater according to some of the posts I have seen in this forum.


Correct.

1. I can’t possibly appreciate my TV in my main veiwing area because,
b. It is just a 50”
your sarcasm rings through, but are you trying to imply that somehow a 50inch TV is large enough?
Anything lower than 65" isnt work the bandwidth to mention.

Anything lower than 65" isnt work the bandwidth to mention.
I realize that text based communications are impersonal and attempts at humor can easily be missed. Is there any chance that you missed placement of a smiley face in there somewhere... perhaps a winky face?

...cause if you didn't, it might come off as a bit snobby.

While many of us are blessed with space and the financial wherewithal to purchase larger televisions, not everyone can do so. Furthermore, not everyone wants a huge television.

We are all here for the same reason. We are enthusiasts and videophiles here to discuss with and learn from each other. Lets all have a nice group hug now 'k? :D

Regards,
Spence

EngadgetHD.com has just posted this article on a recent review of the 65 LVHDTV.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/

EngadgetHD.com has just posted this article on a recent review of the 65 LVHDTV.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/


Just posted ? The same article was posted by Spence on 10/06/08, post 2320, 5 days ago!

Just posted ? The same article was posted by Spence on 10/06/08, post 2320, 5 days ago!

Despite the lack of information in that article, when the first paragraph states "since Mitsubishi brought their ONLY two production models in existence to Bjorn's for this World Premiere event" I have to take the entire article with a grain a salt.

Either the Mitsubishi reps were lying or the author was making up stuff as he reported, neither of which instills any confidence.

Even more comical is the fact he repeated "That's close to 200% of the color gamut for BT.709, the standard for High Definition television content" but wasn't smart enough to follow up with a question to the reps "so what HD content is available above and beyond the REC 709 standard?

Bottom line, I guess that perhaps some computer output may take advantage of the extra gamut if the graphic cards are capable, but it won't be any HD Movies or TV Shows that do.

Originally posted by hipnotiq:
your sarcasm rings through, but are you trying to imply that somehow a 50inch TV is large enough?
Anything lower than 65" isnt work the bandwidth to mention.

Please, some of us have a WAF to deal with. :) Getting her to go from a 32" Trinitron to a 50" Panasonic RPTV was a challenge, although she appreciates the Spurs on it much more. The next step is a 73". While it may not be worth it to some, I still get 23" more of TV. All she cares about is does it have a Sony name. That's why I was able to snag the 46" flat panel. If the 73" Mits was a Sony, I would be golden.

Originally posted by SpenceJT:
I realize that text based communications are impersonal and attempts at humor can easily be missed. Is there any chance that you missed placement of a smiley face in there somewhere... perhaps a winky face?

...cause if you didn't, it might come off as a bit snobby.

Agreed, that was one of my other concerns, sometimes there tends to be some perceived, or actual, elitism here. :)

I finally saw the new laservue, displayed next to a Mitsubishi 65835 and a Mitsubishi 73835. All of them were running the same Mitsubishi promo video feed. I must say it really is beautiful. The image quality is stunning, with rich color and deep blacks. I was particularly impressed by how well it handled dark scenes, particularly the details in the shadowy areas of the picture, which are frequently lost. Having said that, I don't think it is so dramatic an improvement over the 835 models to warrant double the money or more.

If money were no object and the economy wasn't in the pits, this would be a gotta have. Even at $5000, it would be mighty tempting. However, at $7000 I can't even consider it. Certainly not for the fist generation of a new technology.

In short, I was very impressed with the PQ. Just not impressed enough to feel like it is worth the price tag. Too bad.

You really cannot assume this. They may have the ability to map to 709 gamut like some other sets do. At this time we don't have enough info to know what they are doing.

My comments when general in nature and referred to “showing REC 709 video on a wide gamut display”, any display. Mitsubishi may in deed have provided a way to manage color properly, but it would seem that the normal user setting is not accurate it if looks more colorful then a calibrated Samsung DLP. Until the service menu can be explored and measurements taken we have little to go on.
Having said that I will be surprised if the Lazerview can be calibrated for accuracy since Mitsubishi never bothered previously, why start now?

In fact, they have been hostile to the idea of having their sets calibrated.

I finally saw the LaserVue at Paul's TV in La Habra yesterday. As Michael91401 said in his post, it was showing next to a 65835 and a 73835. Whereas I would have figured that the LaserVue would've been between the two other TV's to highlight it, it was instead the far right TV in the setup. However, it was set up in a way that I could stand back about 12 feet and be in the middle of the line of sight of both the LaserVue and the 73835.

All three TV's were running a 10 minute 1080p loop from Mitsubishi. I believe this is the same loop that was running at Bjorn's because I saw the same Spore sequence that was shown in the review posted earlier.

The sets were not set up at eye level. They were on "normal" stands thus putting eye level at a seated position. Being able to stand up and squat down it looked to me that there was not to much loss of picture in the vertical range, if any at all. I was pleasantly surprised by this since everyone else has said that this was something they haven't had a chance to check out.

As stated by others, the horizontal viewing range is much improved over other DLP sets and certainly much better than that of my Samsung HLN617W. By my guesstimate I was able to get off to about 60 to 65 degrees to one side before the picture began showing any degredation and loss of brightness.

The blacks were amazing for a DLP. It has been a long time since I've seen a Kuro, so I didn't have that as a reference point. But they were much darker and more detailed than those on the 73835 next to it.

There was indeed screen crawl / SSE, especially on scenes with large amounts of white in them... but only if you were within 7-9 feet of the TV. Considering that I don't sit that close to the TV at home it's really not a problem for me. Once you got back to about 10 feet the SSE was a non-factor and things just looked wonderful.

Reds were vivid and didn't look oversaturated to me. I was actually impressed with the blues in the Spore segment of the loop.

Most impressive segment of the loop was a bit with some Japanese caligraphy which showed brushstrokes on white paper. The ink was a really dark, inky black. It didn't look crushed and was much darker and had more depth to it than the same image on the 73835 next to it. I was particularly impressed with that and the images of some traditional Japanese jewelry (golds and reds) against a pure black background. The black was very dark and again didn't appear crushed. It was yet again much deeper than the same image on either of the tv's next to it.

Overall I was very impressed with the TV. I'm not impressed with the price, but the TV itself is easily the best looking DLP that I've ever seen in all my years of persistently stalking them. The TV itself is rather sexy looking too. My wife really liked the glossy piano black finish of the TV. She even liked the little blue demon lights on the underside. Then again, my wife likes TV's. :)

I did check the settings on the LaserVue and it was set to torch mode just like the ones at Bjorn's. The Paul's guys were nice enough to allow me to change the settings and I took them down to the settings posted earlier in the thread. This did indeed improve the picture, although it wasn't bad looking at the original settings. The Paul's guys said that those were the settings Mitsubishi wanted because of the in-store environment.

I was unable to play any blu-ray material on the LaserVue and I will check back to see when I can do so. I wanted to use Good Night and Good Luck for black and white material, Planet Earth and Close Enounters for colour material. The Paul's guys said that they'll let me know when I can bring in blu-ray material to reference because, for the time being, the Mitsubishi guys don't want them even moving the TV, much less hooking up any other source material. Oh well.

In looking back at the photos in the review posted earlier showing the Spore sequence where the LaserVue looked a bit washed out next to the other TV, that's definitely a byproduct of the photo and the angle it was taken at. In person the LaserVue was just as colourful and vibrant as the other television in that photo, if not moreso. I know what good colours should look like on my DLP and the LaserVue made my TV at home look like ass.

One interesting bit I was told by the Paul's guys after I asked about the 73" model was that the 65" was introduced first and alone because that is the sweet spot in DLP sales for Mitsubishi. Their 65" models are their top sellers, so that was the reason for the choice... at least according to what they said. Take it with a grain of salt.

One other thing that I noticed was that the LaserVue's 10" cabinet depth sure felt like it was slimmer than 10". It wasn't flat panel thin, but it certainly didn't feel as though it was 10". Whereas I previously thought that wall mounting the TV was sort of a lark and would look bad, I have now completely reveresed thought there and think it wouldn't be out of place at all on a wall mount.

The wife wants one... but only when the 73" model comes out. I have to agree with her. I like DLP's and love the matte finish to the screens. So long as these are still on the market, in larger sizes and the price has come down, I'm pretty sure there's on in my future.

Thanks for the review. I am very interested in the 73" also but figure it will be quite sometime till the price comes down to where I can afford it. You did a great job of describing the TV and what you visualized. I'm sure it will quite interesting once these sets start selling and people are using them. I keep watching for everything that is being said about this TV and this type of information is critical to a final decision whenever the decision comes. I would like to see this TV compared next to the Samsung LED model HL67A750. Thanks again.

Hopefully the screen crawl / SSE will greatly decrease or disappear with calibration.

At this price it's unacceptable IMO.

When is a magazine gonna pull it's finger out and review and compare a calibrated set ? This is a new tech after all...

M.

Approximately $107.69 per diagonal inch, if my calculations are correct.

Approximately $107.69 per diagonal inch, if my calculations are correct.
good point...it is $120 cheaper per inch than the XEL1

I finally saw the new laservue, displayed next to a Mitsubishi 65835 and a Mitsubishi 73835. All of them were running the same Mitsubishi promo video feed. I must say it really is beautiful. The image quality is stunning, with rich color and deep blacks. I was particularly impressed by how well it handled dark scenes, particularly the details in the shadowy areas of the picture, which are frequently lost. Having said that, I don't think it is so dramatic an improvement over the 835 models to warrant double the money or more.

If money were no object and the economy wasn't in the pits, this would be a gotta have. Even at $5000, it would be mighty tempting. However, at $7000 I can't even consider it. Certainly not for the fist generation of a new technology.

In short, I was very impressed with the PQ. Just not impressed enough to feel like it is worth the price tag. Too bad.


I almost pulled the trigger on a 65835. Back on 7-24 it was on Amazon for 2,050. I haven't seen a Laservue yet, but I'll be willing to bet that when I do there won't be a 5K difference between it and the 65835.

I finally saw the LaserVue at Paul's TV in La Habra yesterday....

Great Review! I agree 100%. I was also able to stop by Paul's this morning to see the Laservue set. Boy it certainly wins the torch mode battle. You could have pulled it out into the parking lot and it would have looked good. A real light cannon! Some of the brighter scenes almost made my eyes water. :D

Only had a few minutes to check it out. Hope to be able to see it at a more realistic setting soon.

Dan

P.S. They said they sold one yesterday and would be delivering it today.

Nice review. This is consistent with my impressions of the TV. Speaking of SSE, In a day or two, I intend to do a technical piece of viewing distances for TVs of this sort.

Consider this. I was at a local high end store today and got there just as they were prepping to mount a Panasonic 103" Plasma TV. The guy said the thng weighed 450 pounds and the mounting bracket itself was almost as thick as the laservue TV. There were four or five guys working on the wall in preparation for mountiing the bracket. A couple of PG&E guys were there observing, I don't know what their purpose was. The manager said that the TV had a peak power requirement of 1600 W, though he said nominal power was about 500 W
The price: $70,000!

I wasn't really impressed with the 103" Plasmas. There were 2 in Chicago at the Big Bar when I went on vacation and the PQ wasn't that impressive.

good point...it is $120 cheaper per inch than the XEL1

...And $ 572 cheaper per diagonal inch than the 103" Panny.

I too saw the Laserview at a Paul's in Van Nuys, CA last night.

Paul's is setting these things up the same way in each store it seems, with 3 Mitsubishi's in a lineup. Personally I liked this because I am not buying a Kuro and so it was better to see it against something I would actually consider. They had the 73" 835 on the far left, the 65" in the middle and the Laser on the far right.

First, let me say that I am in the television production business and work with clean, beautiful HD images on professional monitors all the time. However, I am not familiar with setting up consumer sets as many people here are. So I can't comment on the settings, just on how it compares to what I see at work.

The colors are indeed very rich. Reds looked great. Reds can be noisy on any set but this was clean. If you get close and compare the Laser with the 65" 835 you will see a cleaner picture on the Laserview in terms of "grain" or noise. The Laser seems to have very little noise in saturated colors or dark scenes.

However, I you stood back at a normal viewing distance the noise isn't that apparent on the 835 anyways.

What struck me though was how good the 835 looked against the Laser. It was just as bright although less "colorful" if you will. It compared nicely with the Laser I thought given the price difference. The 73" on the end was darker and I didn't know if that was due to how it was adjusted.

There was no difference between the two in terms of "sharpness" or detail. Obviously the Laser doesn't have a seriously upgraded DLP chip. At the price of the Laserview, I really expect Mitsubishi to be putting in newly designed DLP chips, perhaps even a 3 chip block. After all these years, Texas Instruments must have achieved some scale of production cost reduction and could surely could apply this to a set at this price by improving the resolution.

For those here who have seen the really large front projection units such as the Barco's or Christie's, you know there is a lot of detail in the HD picture that is not being seen on even the pricier consumer sets including the Kuros. Mitsubishi should be pushing TI to raise the resolution of their chips, not just improving the black levels.

The Laserview also seemed to have a wider viewing angle than I have seen before.
All in all, it was a nice television.

However,
It was not $4700 better. Paul's was running a decent special on the 65" 835. $2300 if I remember right. Plus a stand included.

After comparing these models, I would be willing to pay about a $2000 premium for the Laserview set. It was not, in any way shape or form, $4700 better than the 65" 835.

Maybe the price will come down given the current economic conditions, but I think I will be picking up one of the 835's for the time being.

I too saw the Laserview at a Paul's in Van Nuys, CA last night.

All in all, it was a nice television.

However,
It was not $4700 better. Paul's was running a decent special on the 65" 835. $2300 if I remember right. Plus a stand included.

After comparing these models, I would be willing to pay about a $2000 premium for the Laserview set. It was not, in any way shape or form, $4700 better than the 65" 835.

Maybe the price will come down given the current economic conditions, but I think I will be picking up one of the 835's for the time being.
I would agree totally with your analysis and I think it pretty ingenious for Mits to have these stores display them in such a manner that they can actually either promote the high end upgrade to the upper crust early adopters and at the same time point the consumer to the 835's win/win value point.

I believe Mits really needs to get their R&D out of the way during the first 6 months and then drop this puppy below $5K retail which is where the Flat Panel 65" panels have fallen (excepting LED LCD). CES this year should be very telling for RPTV and it's future and whether TI gets off their arse and just implements it's chips instead of using a showplace of CES and then by the time they bring it to market RPTV is in it's grave. Is TI blind to what's happening in the marketplace and how is it that Samsung's didn't get DC4 the past year? :)

RPTV is becoming a niche market. None of the vendors that I hav spoken to expect it to sustain a double digit share of the display market, so most are bailing. Hopefully Mits will stay in, and if they do will likely dominate, but they will have to have a real performance and value story to tell to survive.

Is TI blind to what's happening in the marketplace and how is it that Samsung's didn't get DC4 the past year? :)

That's something you need to ask Samsung, not TI. Availability seemed to be sufficient for Mits to implement DC4 across their entire '08 line, so it would appear to be Samsung's choice, not TI's. And RP isn't TI's only market.

I would agree totally with your analysis and I think it pretty ingenious for Mits to have these stores display them in such a manner that they can actually either promote the high end upgrade to the upper crust early adopters and at the same time point the consumer to the 835's win/win value point.

I believe Mits really needs to get their R&D out of the way during the first 6 months and then drop this puppy below $5K retail which is where the Flat Panel 65" panels have fallen (excepting LED LCD). CES this year should be very telling for RPTV and it's future and whether TI gets off their arse and just implements it's chips instead of using a showplace of CES and then by the time they bring it to market RPTV is in it's grave. Is TI blind to what's happening in the marketplace and how is it that Samsung's didn't get DC4 the past year? :)

i don't know why not having DC4 is such a big deal

My Time magazine was delivered yesterday and what do I find on page 71?? How about a two page article boosting LASERVUE. Here is several of the quotes from the face page:

*"The blacks on the new 65-inch(165cm) Mitsubishi Laservue are so black that you'll think the television went dead during the fade-outs between commercials."

*"The laser-powered display provides a wider range of colors than any other TV's, with the Laservues simulating virtually all the colors you'd see in a film ata a theatre."

The article does lament on the 7K price tag with the tag,"Help the economy:buy a sweet $7,000 HDTV (Then charge admission)":eek:

Originally posted by Sproketz:
After comparing these models, I would be willing to pay about a $2000 premium for the Laserview set. It was not, in any way shape or form, $4700 better than the 65" 835.

I agree too, the premium is way to high and a little greedy. However, I am sure they have already computed their production capability and demand. As soon as their production comes up, the price should drop to a reasonable level.

I am really curious to see if Samsung has stayed in the race. I really want to see the next version of the 67" LED 750 model with at least TIs DC4 or maybe even the next revision. I think it will definitely beat Mits in price/performance if they don't drop the price allot.

EngadgetHD.com has just posted this article on a recent review of the 65 LVHDTV.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/580/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-World-Premiere/

I tried to leave a comment (instructions said I could) but was refused even though I followed all instructions, so it is obviously "loaded", for only certain people to respond with there comments, this makes anything you read there absolutely worthless.

Changeling

I too saw the Laserview at a Paul's in Van Nuys, CA last night.

Paul's is setting these things up the same way in each store it seems, with 3 Mitsubishi's in a lineup. Personally I liked this because I am not buying a Kuro and so it was better to see it against something I would actually consider. They had the 73" 835 on the far left, the 65" in the middle and the Laser on the far right.

First, let me say that I am in the television production business and work with clean, beautiful HD images on professional monitors all the time. However, I am not familiar with setting up consumer sets as many people here are. So I can't comment on the settings, just on how it compares to what I see at work.

The colors are indeed very rich. Reds looked great. Reds can be noisy on any set but this was clean. If you get close and compare the Laser with the 65" 835 you will see a cleaner picture on the Laserview in terms of "grain" or noise. The Laser seems to have very little noise in saturated colors or dark scenes.

However, I you stood back at a normal viewing distance the noise isn't that apparent on the 835 anyways.

What struck me though was how good the 835 looked against the Laser. It was just as bright although less "colorful" if you will. It compared nicely with the Laser I thought given the price difference. The 73" on the end was darker and I didn't know if that was due to how it was adjusted.

There was no difference between the two in terms of "sharpness" or detail. Obviously the Laser doesn't have a seriously upgraded DLP chip. At the price of the Laserview, I really expect Mitsubishi to be putting in newly designed DLP chips, perhaps even a 3 chip block. After all these years, Texas Instruments must have achieved some scale of production cost reduction and could surely could apply this to a set at this price by improving the resolution.

For those here who have seen the really large front projection units such as the Barco's or Christie's, you know there is a lot of detail in the HD picture that is not being seen on even the pricier consumer sets including the Kuros. Mitsubishi should be pushing TI to raise the resolution of their chips, not just improving the black levels.

The Laserview also seemed to have a wider viewing angle than I have seen before.
All in all, it was a nice television.

However,
It was not $4700 better. Paul's was running a decent special on the 65" 835. $2300 if I remember right. Plus a stand included.

After comparing these models, I would be willing to pay about a $2000 premium for the Laserview set. It was not, in any way shape or form, $4700 better than the 65" 835.

Maybe the price will come down given the current economic conditions, but I think I will be picking up one of the 835's for the time being.

Good grief man, you just gave an honest review, the "Hit Gurus" will be trying to step on you and your thoughts shortly, so watch for the "buts"/"however"/"ignorance referrals"/etc,.

I saw that you are a new member that must explain the honesty in your review.
I have not seen the "set" yet myself but will as soon as it is available in my area, but since there are some saying that there are only 2 in existence I surely won't hold my breath.
I certainly couldn't agree with you more about what you had to say. "Personally", I think anyone paying 7K for a TV that wasn't absolutely necessary because of there line of work or had more money than sense is in need of a visit to the funny farm.
However there are some people who pick a path in life where reality stops to have meaning when they see something they want regardless of cost. If that is there "cup of tea" I can understand it, sorta, unless it is NOT there personal path, but an avenue of promoting a product for personnel gain, then I become very irritated.

I really look forward to your other reviews, just please remain as honest and devoid of outside influence as you are now and you will go a long way, because most people really do like hearing an "honest" persons opinion. Thanks.

Changeling

RPTV is becoming a niche market. None of the vendors that I hav spoken to expect it to sustain a double digit share of the display market, so most are bailing. Hopefully Mits will stay in, and if they do will likely dominate, but they will have to have a real performance and value story to tell to survive.

The Sam's Club in Madison Wi has no RPTV models for sale and the local Costco shows only a single 65" Mitsubishi and 67" Samsung DLP. Everything else is LCD or Plasma.

In visiting the local American TV (Diamond authorized Mitsubishi reseller in the Midwest), I was told that they 'may' get a LaserVue toward the end of November or sometime in December, then went on to state that they may choose to not carry this model (this may be due to the current financial climate) but rather wait for the second generation as they had heard that the price was $7,300-$7,500. I attempted to inform them that Mitsubishi has stated the retail price of $6,999, but of course they claim to know better (yeah right).

I hope that this is incorrect as I would personally like to see one, and would hope that greater exposure would get a few units sold. I fear that if this first generation does not sell, we may not see a second generation.

So then - no LaserVue to report on in Madison Wi. Perhaps someone should start up an official LaserVue tracking thead?

Spence

Does anyone know if the Laservue's picture looks good?

If the Lasevue does deep color does anyone know which camcorder to pair with it to attain the ultimate viewing experience?

Does anyone know if the Laservue's picture looks good?

Have you read any of the comments by people that have viewed it in this thread????

Does anyone know if the LaserVue's picture looks good?

If the LaseVue does deep color does anyone know which camcorder to pair with it to attain the ultimate viewing experience?

Some have reported that it looks fantastic, some say only marginally better than Mitsubishi's Diamond bulb based DLP. There are reports of SSE, mostly visible up close and when white/light fills the screen.

Most are waiting to hear some real- life reviews, from buyers who have a LaserVue calibrated for use in home (as opposed to the torch mode being seen at retail locations).

Spence

Does anyone know if the Laservue's picture looks good?

If the Lasevue does deep color does anyone know which camcorder to pair with it to attain the ultimate viewing experience?

Only cheap consumer grade cameras can use “Deep Color” (marketing reasons) and only the ones with crappy mp4 compression. No such camera will provide video for “the ultimate viewing experience”.
Semi Pro and Pro cameras don’t support “Deep Color” as far as I am aware, there is no way to distribute the video. Not even BluRay supports “deep color”, nor dose it support more then 8bit.

I saw it at Ken Cranes in Encino, California. I was prepared to be blown away. I was more blown away when I returned home to view my XBR1 60" SXRD. $7000? No way!

Nice review. This is consistent with my impressions of the TV. Speaking of SSE, In a day or two, I intend to do a technical piece of viewing distances for TVs of this sort.

5 days ago you said you were intending to purchase the TV.

It takes you that long to put a Reference Grade SpectroRadioMeter in front of it and post an attachment with the results?

Most could care less about the viewing distances at the point. We want to see the specs, or perhaps you didn't purchase it as stated - or don't have the gear to test it properly as you implied?

Originally posted by BeachComber:
5 days ago you said you were intending to purchase the TV.

It takes you that long to put a Reference Grade SpectroRadioMeter in front of it and post an attachment with the results?

Most could care less about the viewing distances at the point. We want to see the specs, or perhaps you didn't purchase it as stated - or don't have the gear to test it properly as you implied?

Did I miss some part where it says he is obligated to buy the set and do the testing? What's it to you, me, or anybody else on this forum? Give him a break, maybe he actually has a life. :)

I don't know about anybody else here, but all the opinions or potential opinions posted here are just that. It's really me who will make the final determination on whether to spend my money.

Did I miss some part where it says he is obligated to buy the set and do the testing? What's it to you, me, or anybody else on this forum?

Well lets see.

He has posted countless messages about how long he has been in this field and how long he has used top of the line test equipment.

He has posted that he was purchasing the unit on Tuesday.

It seems he cannot produce a mass of data reports from Spectral Response (which should look different for this than other sets because of the laser source) and color measurements as to accuracy, something that would take mere minutes.

Give him a break, maybe he actually has a life. :)

He intends to write up a paper on viewing distances instead of posting the technical data....ROFLMAO....and you think he has a life!

The fact that these actual technical results are not posted leads one to the conclusion 1) The set doesn't perform very well or 2) He was full of it from the beginning.


I don't know about anybody else here, but all the opinions or potential opinions posted here are just that. It's really me who will make the final determination on whether to spend my money.

Technical Results are reproducable facts -not opinions.

Originally posted by BeachComber:
[quote=LowellG;14848210]Did I miss some part where it says he is obligated to buy the set and do the testing? What's it to you, me, or anybody else on this forum?

Well lets see.

He has posted countless messages about how long he has been in this field and how long he has used top of the line test equipment.

He has posted that he was purchasing the unit on Tuesday.

It seems he cannot produce a mass of data reports from Spectral Response (which should look different for this than other sets because of the laser source) and color measurements as to accuracy, something that would take mere minutes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG
Give him a break, maybe he actually has a life.

He intends to write up a paper on viewing distances instead of posting the technical data....ROFLMAO....and you think he has a life!

The fact that these actual technical results are not posted leads one to the conclusion 1) The set doesn't perform very well or 2) He was full of it from the beginning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG
I don't know about anybody else here, but all the opinions or potential opinions posted here are just that. It's really me who will make the final determination on whether to spend my money.

Technical Results are reproducable facts are not opinions.

You missed my point and I have a life.

I'd like to view a laservue during an actual hurricanne covered by The Weather Channel and really get blown away! If I was blown into the water I could give a personal account of deep color!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BeachComber:


You missed my point and I have a life.

Occam's Razor

All things equal, the simpliest explanation is most often correct.

He spent countless hours arguing how great this set was. Now he doesn't have 10 minutes to post the technical results which are FACTS, but does have time to write up his OPINIONS on seating distance from this type of set

In this situation, Occam's Razor tells us that the reason is not because he has a life, but because the specs don't back up the claims.

As you were never in the market for this set, I can see why you really don't care what it can do....others do have a use for it, but only if it meets a number of technical benchmarks.

5 days ago you said you were intending to purchase the TV.

It takes you that long to put a Reference Grade SpectroRadioMeter in front of it and post an attachment with the results?

Most could care less about the viewing distances at the point. We want to see the specs, or perhaps you didn't purchase it as stated - or don't have the gear to test it properly as you implied?


I think it’s a bit premature to expect test results from John, however the viewing distance guide has me intrigued. Viewing distance has nothing to do with display type, and if you have to sit further away from the Lazerview then other technologies to make it look good it’s a failure as far as I am concerned. The whole idea of 1080 HD is that it allows big screens to be viewed up close for cinema like viewing angles, that means about 8’ for a 65” and 9’ for a 73”.

I think it’s a bit premature to expect test results from John

It takes all of about 120 seconds to run through 0-100 IRE Windows and shoot the readings, as well as a 75% R-G-B Window. Less than 5 minutes to post the results, certainly less time than it took him to compose any single one of those posts 7-14 days ago.

If there were a LaserVue within 300 miles of me at this time, I'd take a day off and go do it - and post the results no matter how they looked, good or bad.

As you are well aware, Red (as well as the other Primaries and Secondaries) has an exact X and Y coordinate using REC 709. If the Red coordinates is past the point, it will look deeper red and the other displays will look more orange/red in comparison (just as has been reported in some cases of the side by side tests). Thus everyone should be anxious to see exactly where the primaries and secondaries fall on this unit - and how accurate it truly is.

Everything else is simply opinion.

however the viewing distance guide has me intrigued. Viewing distance has nothing to do with display type, and if you have to sit further away from the Lazerview then other technologies to make it look good it’s a failure as far as I am concerned.

Agreed, though I wouldn't term it "intrigued". The only thing intriguing is why he would want to come up with something like that instead of posting technical facts. I'll default to SMPTE and THX for Viewing Angles and Distances, not him.

It takes all of about 120 seconds to run through 0-100 IRE Windows and shoot the readings, as well as a 75% R-G-B Window. Less than 5 minutes to post the results, certainly less time than it took him to compose any single one of those posts 7-14 days ago.

If there were a LaserVue within 300 miles of me at this time, I'd take a day off and go do it - and post the results no matter how they looked, good or bad.

As you are well aware, Red (as well as the other Primaries and Secondaries) has an exact X and Y coordinate using REC 709. If the Red coordinates is past the point, it will look deeper red and the other displays will look more orange/red in comparison (just as has been reported in some cases of the side by side tests). Thus everyone should be anxious to see exactly where the primaries and secondaries fall on this unit - and how accurate it truly is.

Everything else is simply opinion.


Even if John wanted to buy a Lazerview, does anyone actually have stock ready for immediate delivery? I suspect not, and doing tests on a display model set up in a retailer may not be possible. That’s why I suggested that it may be premature to expect test results at this time.

Originally posted by BeachComer:
As you were never in the market for this set, I can see why you really don't care what it can do....others do have a use for it, but only if it meets a number of technical benchmarks.

I am in the market for a 65" - 70" TV and this was one of them, but it's not worth the premium, not even close. I would get the 65" Panasonic Plasma first. I have a Direct Buy membership so I get a great discount on every set compared as competition to the LaserVue. The LaserVue has not shown up on the price list yet. It will most likely be there when production increases.

What I am not going to do is buy something based on it's ability to achieve or not achieve some optimal scientific standard. If it looks better than some other set in the price I am looking for, I will buy it. I feel sorry for the people here chasing scientific perfection in the products that are out or coming out. They will never be happy or satisfied. It must be horrible to set down and watch a movie and just nit pick to death whether something had enough shadow detail or that the blacks weren't black enough.

Well it looks like we have another "pusher" just like in the original Qualia roll out. He got people to order $15k sets based on his glowing, being in the industry recommendations then disappeared never to return again. Well at least this time it is only $7k and I don't know if one can order this set from Mitsubishi. Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it.

PS, funny isn't it when people have been taken they'll continue the charade as thay can't admit to anyone/themselves, that they've been taken.

I am in the market for a 65" - 70" TV and this was one of them, but it's not worth the premium, not even close. I would get the 65" Panasonic Plasma first. I have a Direct Buy membership so I get a great discount on every set compared as competition to the LaserVue. The LaserVue has not shown up on the price list yet. It will most likely be there when production increases.

What I am not going to do is buy something based on it's ability to achieve or not achieve some optimal scientific standard. If it looks better than some other set in the price I am looking for, I will buy it. I feel sorry for the people here chasing scientific perfection in the products that are out or coming out. They will never be happy or satisfied. It must be horrible to set down and watch a movie and just nit pick to death whether something had enough shadow detail or that the blacks weren't black enough.

You can buy the best or get less, there is no in between. Now discussing what is the best is what this forum is all about. :)

Originally posted by Bill:You can buy the best or get less, there is no in between. Now discussing what is the best is what this forum is all about.

Buying the best is great. However, it appears people are looking for perfection, which they are not going to find. :)

I just got back from Ken Kranes, motivated by the circular bundled within today's LA Times. I walk in, and wow, I'm unimpressed. For $6000, it seems to be overpriced for what you're getting: a picture that doesn't look as good as the Panasonic 800U, Samsung 750, or Pioneer 111 which they also had on display. I guess the optimistic approach would be to say "the set has not been calibrated". I spent 20 minutes looking at the set from various viewing angles, and I'm still inclined to spring for the 800U in the 58-inch size. Oh yeah, the "screen door" effect is DEFINITELY present at 10 feet.

It takes all of about 120 seconds to run through 0-100 IRE Windows and shoot the readings, as well as a 75% R-G-B Window. Less than 5 minutes to post the results, certainly less time than it took him to compose any single one of those posts 7-14 days ago.

If there were a LaserVue within 300 miles of me at this time, I'd take a day off and go do it - and post the results no matter how they looked, good or bad.

As you are well aware, Red (as well as the other Primaries and Secondaries) has an exact X and Y coordinate using REC 709. If the Red coordinates is past the point, it will look deeper red and the other displays will look more orange/red in comparison (just as has been reported in some cases of the side by side tests). Thus everyone should be anxious to see exactly where the primaries and secondaries fall on this unit - and how accurate it truly is.

Everything else is simply opinion.



Agreed, though I wouldn't term it "intrigued". The only thing intriguing is why he would want to come up with something like that instead of posting technical facts. I'll default to SMPTE and THX for Viewing Angles and Distances, not him.

Do you BeachComber ever quit trying to belittle people by trying to sound like you are the "poo" in this forum? :mad:I have been following this post since the beginning. Me and others (yes fellow coworkers and friends that follow this thread) share the same opinion of you shutting your trap. Unless you have FACTS :eek: about this set (first hand accounts of you actually seeing and running tests) quit bashing fellow members of this forum that have actually seen this model of their opinions. When you have any relevant knowledge that is useful for this thread about THIS set, then by all means, chime in and we will digest what you have to say. eek:
Thanks and Cheers :D

Buying the best is great. However, it appears people are looking for perfection, which they are not going to find. :)

That's funny as many sets, such at the Pioneer Plasma can give you perfect primary and secondaries in REC 709 Gamut.

If the Laservue cannot, so be it.

Also, lets not forget that your wife will not let you spend $7k on a TV no matter how it looks, so no, you were never in the market for this set.

Do you BeachComber ever quit trying to belittle people by trying to sound like you are the "poo" in this forum? :mad:I have been following this post since the beginning. Me and others (yes fellow coworkers and friends that follow this thread) share the same opinion of you shutting your trap. Unless you have FACTS :eek: about this set (first hand accounts of you actually seeing and running tests) quit bashing fellow members of this forum that have actually seen this model of their opinions. When you have any relevant knowledge that is useful for this thread about THIS set, then by all means, chime in and we will digest what you have to say. eek:
Thanks and Cheers :D


As stated, yes I have seen it - and it looked like Poo - as did others.

And if you bothered to re-read, I have been pushing for hard facts - not opinions.

Perhaps you should go after the BS artists who claimed to be buying a set last week with 25+ experience of color who had the Pro Equipment to give you the facts and disappeared when it came to put up or shut up.

Fact is, we were looking to put multiple units in HD News Studios as the 140fL would certainly have no trouble under studio lights, so yes, the unit is very relevant to us, however, just as we decided against Pioneer Kuros in the Control Rooms and other locations because of the magenta blacks, we decided the color accuracy was more important to seeing what was really going out over the air than the contrast ratio. As you have also seen, very few people can handle the facts, but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

But then again, if we are talking about facts, given your most recent post as well as this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14742337&highlight=#post14742337

It appears that 66% of your posts are negative, so perhaps you should look in the mirror as well.

Buying the best is great. However, it appears people are looking for perfection, which they are not going to find. :)

I don’t expect perfection, but I would like something better then what I already have, doesn’t look like Lazerview has any chance of providing that.

I through in the towel on Lazervue and rear projection over the weekend. I purchased a pioneer PRO 141-FD 60 inch. Its nice to finally have a TV that does darks scenes real well , and i dont miss screen grain on the JVC one bit.
Im never going back.


If pioneer or panasonic make a 70 inch or bigger PDP im all over it next year.

After reading several posts I firmly believe that Mitsubishi F***d up by pricing this thing so high. In order for it to command that much it would have to be revolutionary, not evolutionary, and honestly at this point no RP set will be revolutionary.

I would have liked to see this succeed as an alternative to flat panels, but unless this price comes down quickly it will turn all but the most hardcore fans off. There will not be a second generation as Mitsubishi will then say the sales aren't there for this set. Notice that Mitsubishi is the most behind in flat panel displays. I hope they didn't put most of there video eggs in the Laservue basket, because if so their Market Analysts should be fired.

There will not be a second generation as Mitsubishi will then say the sales aren't there for this set.

I'd say it still has a chance. Theoretically it shouldn't cost significantly more to build than lamp based sets, once they get the bugs worked out and laser production optimized. IF they can keep it alive for the next year or two, there is still potential for the very large screen sizes. 65" is already a tough market for this to compete in. But it may still be a while before other technologies become cost effective in the 70"+ sizes. Sounds like they at least have sufficient output to offer decent viewing angles in well lit rooms, so if they can push this to the range where flat panels are still too expensive, and FP too dim, there may be hope yet.

I have followed this thread from the start. I must admit that I spent a little over 4k (with extended warranty) on a new HLN617W 5 years ago. DLP was not bleeding edge but still cutting edge back then. For a 720p set it still provides a stunning picture in HD.

I have read every post in this thread and there are those who believe that MIT's has thought this through and that they "know" what they are doing price wise. Cm'on...that's what the big-wigs on Wall Street lead us to believe and look where they're at today.

Sure, there will be a few people who have large amounts of disposable income who will buy this thing, though even they don't have as much $$$$ as they did a few weeks ago. But for the majority of people who are in the market for a large size DLP based HD TV...7k is way out of perspective. I don't care if they captured a piece of the SUN itself as a light source, or if the color gamut goes into the ultraviolet range.

The real competition for this TV is other rear projection DLP's, not flat panel LCD's or plasmas. When anyone can pick up an LED based DLP that's 2" bigger for 5k less that provides a fantastic image....there's no competition. My$0.02;)

I'd say it still has a chance. Theoretically it shouldn't cost significantly more to build than lamp based sets, once they get the bugs worked out and laser production optimized. IF they can keep it alive for the next year or two, there is still potential for the very large screen sizes. 65" is already a tough market for this to compete in. But it may still be a while before other technologies become cost effective in the 70"+ sizes. Sounds like they at least have sufficient output to offer decent viewing angles in well lit rooms, so if they can push this to the range where flat panels are still too expensive, and FP too dim, there may be hope yet.


I think they have a year at most. As it is, you can get the 65" Panasonic Plasma for less than the 65" Laservue and we both know that that the general public would prefer the form factor of the Plasma to that of the Laservue, no matter how good the Laservue is. By next year the 65" Plasma's will be even cheaper and better.

How long will Mitsu continue to sink money into a dead technology like RPTV ? Flat panel manufacturers may even come out with sizes larger than 65" for less than $10K. That would surely put Lasevue into a really tight niche, and probably a money loosing one at that, at a time when all these companies have to cut back because of the slow economy.

Flat panel manufacturers may even come out with sizes larger than 65" for less than $10K.

Yes, as I said, 65" is becoming a tough market for RP. Btu flat panels are still going to be very expensive in the 70"+ market for several more years. RPTV scales very inexpensively, as it only needs a bigger (mostly plastic) cabinet, and maybe an upgraded light source, depending on how big you go. The market for larger screen displays is only going to grow as the number of households with ample good quality HD sources increases. Remember, laser sourced displays were originally estimated to be relativley inexpensive (comparable to bulb based sets). If Mits can manage the cost to make that happen, Laservue may still have a chance.

I just got back from Ken Kranes, motivated by the circular bundled within today's LA Times. I walk in, and wow, I'm unimpressed. For $6000, it seems to be overpriced for what you're getting: a picture that doesn't look as good as the Panasonic 800U, Samsung 750, or Pioneer 111 which they also had on display. I guess the optimistic approach would be to say "the set has not been calibrated". I spent 20 minutes looking at the set from various viewing angles, and I'm still inclined to spring for the 800U in the 58-inch size. Oh yeah, the "screen door" effect is DEFINITELY present at 10 feet.

You mean SSE, not SDE. The latter is not found on DLPs but was mainly a 768p plasma issue.

Having seen the Laservue I can say it has very little going for it. The only way a RPTV can compete with a flat panel is either a much cheaper price or a substancially better picture. The Laservue has neither. My gripes about the Laservue are modivated by the points illustrated in the last couple of posts. I'm worried that the set will never get to the second generation, and/or achieve economy of scale, because sales of this model will never get off the ground.

To have any hope the 65" needs to be around half what they're asking and the 73" maybe $1000 more. If they can't make any margin at that price, the set is doomed. It is the best RPTV set I've seen, but it doesn't walk on water and simply won't be able to command north of Pioneer Elite retail pricing. Much less compete with the street price of the new 65" Panny or the Elite.

If Mits has a considerable load in the initial price to recover its R&D, well at least I can understand that. The unanswered question is whether or not there is a point where Mits can still make money AND the price would the low enough to stimulate material demand. Two or three times the current street price of the better RPTV's is no way to run a railroad.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Mits will keep this technology alive long enough to figure out a way to make it profitable for them and affordable for us.

Having seen the Laservue I can say it has very little going for it. The only way a RPTV can compete with a flat panel is either a much cheaper price or a substancially better picture. The Laservue has neither. My gripes about the Laservue are modivated by the points illustrated in the last couple of posts. I'm worried that the set will never get to the second generation, and/or achieve economy of scale, because sales of this model will never get off the ground.

To have any hope the 65" needs to be around half what they're asking and the 73" maybe $1000 more. If they can't make any margin at that price, the set is doomed. It is the best RPTV set I've seen, but it doesn't walk on water and simply won't be able to command north of Pioneer Elite retail pricing. Much less compete with the street price of the new 65" Panny or the Elite.

If Mits has a considerable load in the initial price to recover its R&D, well at least I can understand that. The unanswered question is whether or not there is a point where Mits can still make money AND the price would the low enough to stimulate material demand. Two or three times the current street price of the better RPTV's is no way to run a railroad.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Mits will keep this technology alive long enough to figure out a way to make it profitable for them and affordable for us.

Well said. That's why I said they should have launched the 73". The 65" has a lot of strong competition and is DOA IMO. The 70" plasma/LCD are expensive and would give Mitsubishi some room to sell the 73" at a profit.

Originally posted by BeachComber:
Also, lets not forget that your wife will not let you spend $7k on a TV no matter how it looks, so no, you were never in the market for this set.

Who do you think you are with your personal insults? No, I am not a multimillionaire and don't have that kind of disposable income, do you? I does not mean I wasn't in the market for this set. I wouldn't spend $7K on a TV whether she let me or not and I don’t need to with my Direct Buy membership.

This started out because you think somebody should go out and buy this set and run a diagnostic on it just because they said they might. Then you proceed to tell them how easy it is and badger them. Since you are quote “in the market”, why don’t you drive/fly to a location that has one and check it out yourself.

It’s been stated by multiple people that this set is not worth the money, the black levels don’t match a Kuro, etc. What’s it matter if somebody runs a diagnostic on it? How will that change anything for you who is "in the market" for one.

I visit many forums.

I cant remember ever encountering any that have such a 'bitchy' , egotistical, desperate to prove that 'I know more than you' macho BS, contingent.

Why don't those concerned GROW UP, get a life, rise above the child-like behaviour, and just completely avoid the personal attacks and pi$$ing contests.

It really casts an unpleasant shadow over the entire thread for us all and it's sad to see enthusiasts behave in this way.

M.

Originally posted by Mixdoctor:
I think they have a year at most. As it is, you can get the 65" Panasonic Plasma for less than the 65" Laservue and we both know that that the general public would prefer the form factor of the Plasma to that of the Laservue, no matter how good the Laservue is. By next year the 65" Plasma's will be even cheaper and better.

How long will Mitsu continue to sink money into a dead technology like RPTV ? Flat panel manufacturers may even come out with sizes larger than 65" for less than $10K. That would surely put Lasevue into a really tight niche, and probably a money loosing one at that, at a time when all these companies have to cut back because of the slow economy.

Mit's should have released this set at a pricepoint between current RPTVs and flat panels of the same size or as someone else stated came right out with the 73" since their is much less competition. I am curious to see what is displayed at CES this year in the RPTV category. I guess we will find out if it's truly dead or not.

After reading several posts I firmly believe that Mitsubishi F***d up by pricing this thing so high. In order for it to command that much it would have to be revolutionary, not evolutionary, ....

There is another scenario, one often adopted for new technologies. Start with low production volume and price high to equilibrate demand and supply. Then if bugs develop you have pissed off only a small number of people. If the technology matures successfully then you ramp up production and drop the price.

This strategy is common, Blu-ray comes to mind.

I visit many forums.

I cant remember ever encountering any that have such a 'bitchy' , egotistical, desperate to prove that 'I know more than you' macho BS, contingent.

Why don't those concerned GROW UP, get a life, rise above the child-like behaviour, and just completely avoid the personal attacks and pi$$ing contests.

It really casts an unpleasant shadow over the entire thread for us all and it's sad to see enthusiasts behave in this way.

M.

+1 or in the words of Mel Brooks "HARUMP!"