I visit many forums...I cant remember ever encountering any that have such a 'bitchy' , egotistical, desperate to prove that 'I know more than you' macho BS, contingent....

You must confine yourself to very polite venues. To me the AVS Forum is extremely mature and polite overall. But on all such media there are unfortunately a small percentage of sad people who misuse the anonymity provided by aliases to engage in manipulation, bullying and distortion. When one encounters such people there are three choices, ignore them, abandon the field to them, or argue back. Personally I prefer the first, but that course of action is often futile. But each of us makes his or her own choice.

There is another scenario, one often adopted for new technologies. Start with low production volume and price high to equilibrate demand and supply. Then if bugs develop you have pissed off only a small number of people. If the technology matures successfully then you ramp up production and drop the price.

This strategy is common, Blu-ray comes to mind.

Big difference.....Blu Ray is a new technology. RP DLP is aging and dying fast. Mitsu or any other manufacturer does not have enough time for any "new" RP technology to mature, as it's already on life support as it is. This is one of those things where everything has to be just right to save it: 1)price, 2)aesthetics, and of course a 3)great picture, in that order to sell to the general public. They failed on number one and now the rest will not matter to most people.

A recent issue of Time Magazine (Barack Obama on the cover, half white-face, half black-face/normal) had a 2-page essay on the Mits LaserVue talking about how it's the best TV made - blacks between commercials make you think your TV has lost its power, color gamut is as wide as film so you can see all the colors you saw at the theater, and next to a "good" TV the Mits reds will make the other TVs' reds look orangey. At least that's what the essayist wrote. He apparently confirmed this with some guy at HDview or some Website that's apparently an authority on HDTV. I think the name Dorfmann or something was mentioned.

I just got back from Ken Kranes, motivated by the circular bundled within today's LA Times. I walk in, and wow, I'm unimpressed. For $6000, it seems to be overpriced for what you're getting: a picture that doesn't look as good as the Panasonic 800U, Samsung 750, or Pioneer 111 which they also had on display. I guess the optimistic approach would be to say "the set has not been calibrated". I spent 20 minutes looking at the set from various viewing angles, and I'm still inclined to spring for the 800U in the 58-inch size. Oh yeah, the "screen door" effect is DEFINITELY present at 10 feet.

Are you talking about the LaserVue having "screen door" effect? That is one of the nice things about DLP, no "screen door" effect.

RPTV is becoming a niche market. None of the vendors that I hav spoken to expect it to sustain a double digit share of the display market, so most are bailing. Hopefully Mits will stay in, and if they do will likely dominate, but they will have to have a real performance and value story to tell to survive.

They really should bring this technology to the front projection market. I don't see a future RPTV market.

They really should bring this technology to the front projection market. I don't see a future RPTV market.

I agree and I think Mitsubishi will do it. RPTV is still alive because of size and price only.

Originally posted by slimoli:
RPTV is still alive because of size and price only.

That's what makes LaserVue's pricepoint so confusing. :)

... RP DLP is aging and dying fast...

??? I've never heard of laser-power display devices before, have you? Now how good it is compared to RP DLP with hot lamps or LED lighting remains to be seen but initial comments seem promising.

??? I've never heard of laser-power display devices before, have you? Now how good it is compared to RP DLP with hot lamps or LED lighting remains to be seen but initial comments seem promising.

They do?:confused: I must have missed something.:eek:

As most other members have said, I reckon the current 7k price will drop dramatically.

If you look at any other TV's initial release price (from all manufacturers) via the selected dealer outlets route, and then compare these to today's online & big-box prices, you will see heavy discounting - the same will be true for LaserVue, that's a certainty.

Also over time Mits will surely introduce even cheaper, less spec'd non-Diamond variants to make the LV product range even more competitive and accessible.

I disagree with most about DLP dying any time soon though.

I understand the market share compared to LCD & plasma is in a small, tiny, minority, but that small minority is still 10's, perhaps 100's of thousands of units per year. IMO this size of market is to valuable and potentially lucrative to be ignored.

And of course, the use of laser's for FP units requires further technical research, as well as experience and perfection of, manufacture and assembly.

Mits can learn much from the current and next Gen LaserVue DLP units, and much of this know-how can be carried forward and put to use for FP, resulting in reduced overall R & D costs.

Mits has less and less DLP competitors as days go by, and more and more potential market share and profits in this niche' market, and the opportunity of being the first to introduce Laser FP .

Surely a win win situation for Mits ?

M.

Time magazine cursory review - http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1848456,00.html .

[QUOTE=loser40;14861051]As most other members have said, I reckon the current 7k price will drop dramatically.

If you look at any other TV's initial release price (from all manufacturers) via the selected dealer outlets route, and then compare these to today's online & big-box prices, you will see heavy discounting - the same will be true for LaserVue, that's a certainty.

Also over time Mits will surely introduce even cheaper, less spec'd non-Diamond variants to make the LV product range even more competitive and accessible.

I disagree with most about DLP dying any time soon though.

I understand the market share compared to LCD & plasma is in a small, tiny, minority, but that small minority is still 10's, perhaps 100's of thousands of units per year. IMO this size of market is to valuable and potentially lucrative to be ignored.

And of course, the use of laser's for FP units requires further technical research, as well as experience and perfection of, manufacture and assembly.

Mits can learn much from the current and next Gen LaserVue DLP units, and much of this know-how can be carried forward and put to use for FP, resulting in reduced overall R & D costs.

Mits has less and less DLP competitors as days go by, and more and more potential market share and profits in this niche' market, and the opportunity of being the first to introduce Laser FP .

Surely a win win situation for Mits ?

M.

[QUOTE]

They'd better hurry. The hdguru has just reported from CEATEC. Panasonic is touting NeoPDP plasma technology that cuts power consumption by 50%. They are supposed to be 1" thick and weigh 35% less. An 85" version was mentioned.

The time for Mits to capitalize on market share is now. Flat panels are going to improve and become more and more affordable. I suspect Mits could sell quite a few 65" sets at $3500 and 73" sets at $4500 in the short term. The RPTV market will only exist if it provides something flat panels do not. I don't think Mits will benefit much if Samsung abandons the RPTV market. They may sell a few more lamp sets, but at $7000 it won't help the Laservue at all. They'll be no RPTV market just as soon as large screen flat panels can compete on price.

Lets face it, the clock on RPTV is ticking. In the twlight of a dying technology we've often seen the finest example of its kind emerge. Based on what I've seen Laservue may be such an example. Still, Mits is making a serious mistake pricing it well north of the street price of large screen plasma.

An earlier post mentioned what I call the beta test theory, pricing the product very high to restrict sales in order to field test new technology. If it blows up, you only create a limited amount of ill will. If this is what they're up to I'm sure they'll succeed with limiting sales! It worked on me.

As most other members have said, I reckon the current 7k price will drop dramatically.

If you look at any other TV's initial release price (from all manufacturers) via the selected dealer outlets route, and then compare these to today's online & big-box prices, you will see heavy discounting - the same will be true for LaserVue, that's a certainty.

Also over time Mits will surely introduce even cheaper, less spec'd non-Diamond variants to make the LV product range even more competitive and accessible.

I disagree with most about DLP dying any time soon though.

I understand the market share compared to LCD & plasma is in a small, tiny, minority, but that small minority is still 10's, perhaps 100's of thousands of units per year. IMO this size of market is to valuable and potentially lucrative to be ignored.

And of course, the use of laser's for FP units requires further technical research, as well as experience and perfection of, manufacture and assembly.

Mits can learn much from the current and next Gen LaserVue DLP units, and much of this know-how can be carried forward and put to use for FP, resulting in reduced overall R & D costs.

Mits has less and less DLP competitors as days go by, and more and more potential market share and profits in this niche' market, and the opportunity of being the first to introduce Laser FP .

Surely a win win situation for Mits ?

M.

Time magazine cursory review - http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1848456,00.html .


I see you are in the UK. Not sure about there but, here in the US DLP is dying out. Go into any electronics store and you will see that DLP is relegated to a corner or a small part of the display area and each time I go back into stores that area gets smaller and smaller.

Mark my words.... by the 2010 CES you will be lucky to see one manufacturer of DLP's or any RPTV's. This will be especially true as flat panels get cheaper and they are by the day. In that climate LaserVue will not have generations to get the price ratio to performance right. As it is they have come out the gate limping.

I just wonder since Mits has invested in this LV line if they are abandoning their bulb based sets completely. It will be interesting to see at CES if Mits shows another line of DLPs other than the LV.

I just wonder since Mits has invested in this LV line if they are abandoning their bulb based sets completely. It will be interesting to see at CES if Mits shows another line of DLPs other than the LV.

This all depends. My opinion is the LV is better than the bulb or LED sets. But, the improvement is incremental and not quantum. If they priced the LV at or near their conventional DLP's, then there is no reason to maintain two types. If they stick to their current LV pricing, they may as well continue with their bulb sets. Assuming they are selling in reasonable numbers now. But, the point is they won't sell any additional LV's AT THEIR CURRENT PRICING by dropping the bulb line.

The fairly reasonable cost of a large screen conventional DLP is one of the reasons why the current LV pricing is misguided. I don't mean to be a wise guy, but I honestly feel that if Mits can't make any money with LV being at a price comparable with their conventional sets, it's the LV that will end up disappearing!

vili - I too assume that Mits will drop the bulb DLP units sooner rather than later, any extra manufacturing costs of going LV only can mostly be offset by economies of scale and this again will be another inroad to reducing prices.

egrady - Once LV prices drop to sensible prices many will, as many have in the past, be swayed to go the DLP route if not just for enhanced PQ, but also for more bang for the buck.

Mixdoctor - I think DLP will be around after 2010, I understand prices of flat panels are going to drop, and sizes are going to get increase, but this wont happen overnight, the roll out will take many years. People who have recently invested many $1000's into existing plasma & LCD will be reluctant to pay early adopter prices, even if they could theoretically afford too in the midst of the credit crunch.

Who knows, in a few years time DLP may make another step forward and become drastically thinner, say slimmer than the size of current flat panels, at a price point that undercuts the the new large upcoming flat panels...

Anyways, I'm dumbfounded why know has reviewed an LV yet !

M.

I took a quick look at the Ken Cranes in Southern California (Torrance) and I was not very impressed with the set.

It could be the video feed (some music concert?) and the positioning of the set but it didn't look that spectacular or special. I think in most stores if you set it up right next to a lamp based 835, most people wouldn't notice it being significantly different or thousands of dollars worth of a better picture. Off angle viewing both horizontal and vertical didn't seem that much better than the 835, but it was hard to tell because the store was pretty bright with light coming in through the glass doors hitting the set so it looked kind of washed out. When people see the set in person I can see them either saving a bunch of money and getting a 73" Mitsubishi 835 or a 72" Samsung 650 if they want to stick to rear projection and need the size, otherwise I think they would just get a 65" Panasonic for the same size and still save some money.

The deal breaker for me is the SSE on the new set. The silk screen effect is definitely still there but I think it is worse because of the laser light source. On normal bulb DLPs I am used to seeing the SSE on uniform white or light colored areas and I have learned to ignore it for the most part, but on the Laservue, the grain you see seems to be more noticeable because it seems to shimmer(?). It was kind of annoying and would be harder for me to ignore during normal viewing. I didn't ask which mode the set was on, but maybe if it was set on to torch mode that might explain it.

I don't see any bright future for the Laservue either but in order to be fair don't judge the picture for what you see on the stores. I own a DLP Mitsubishi (73927) and would never have bought it if I hadn't had the chance to do a basic calibration at the store. Mitsubishi normally looks horrible out of the box, much more than any other set. It is also particularly bad in bright mode (torch). We must see a calibrated set before any further judgement. The price will come down soon, very few people will spend 7K on a 65" DLP and this is not a Sony which plays hard ball with MSRP.

On a random note, what' the deal with LCOS?
I keep hearing they're going to be history soon, yet my cousin who can get displays that arent even released in the market yet, has a new JVC 46" LCOS with a 2ms response time, the color is also pretty damn good, right up there with plasma....although the blacks could be better.

Anyways, he keeps saying Lcos blows away both LCD and Plasma....yet i have a hard time believing that, since the new Pioneere 111(for example) is the best HDTV you can buy on the market...but i gotta admit, the color was fantastic on the LCos, and it's impressive 2ms response time was great and better than any LCD i've seen(still not quite up to CRT standards, but what tech is?) but the blacks definitly could of been better....

Anyways, so what's the deal with LCOS? I mean i'm just confused now based on all of these techs, Laser, LED LCD, Plasma, LCOS, DLP...ugh, somebody please make me a slimmer 50" 1080p CRT HDTV ;p.

JVC will continue to build LCOS projectors, but will not be building any new RPTV after 2008, according to a service rep I spoke to at training last month. It is a good technology, but does not have any inherent advantages over DLP. Most makers found that the yields were too low to make them profitable. How long JVC will make them for the projector business is uncertain, but at least for a while. DLP is more versatile, and has proven to be very durable and high yield, at least in terms of the DMD itself. The related parts will vary in reliability, as we have seen...

JVC will continue to build LCOS projectors, but will not be building any new RPTV after 2008, according to a service rep I spoke to at training last month. It is a good technology, but does not have any inherent advantages over DLP. Most makers found that the yields were too low to make them profitable. How long JVC will make them for the projector business is uncertain, but at least for a while. DLP is more versatile, and has proven to be very durable and high yield, at least in terms of the DMD itself. The related parts will vary in reliability, as we have seen...

Ahh ic, he mentioned something about JVC only coming out with LCOS projectors later on, so i'm assuming he's got the last and best LCOS RPTV. Also, isn' the new Samsung LED DLP superior when it comes to Response time/motion handling and Blacks?...I'm still confused on how DLPs handle motion, isn't it the closest thing to CRT? the LCOS is 2ms, the latest LED LCD is 4ms, yet it deals with it defirently and is comparable to a plasma...so where does that leave an LCOS with 2ms?

What can i say, motion is really important to me, so which tech out there is the leader in this department?
And i mean i was always leaning towards plasma, because of the suprior color, blacks and motion....But now there's LED LCD and LED DLP, not to mention laser coming out soon...

They really should bring this technology to the front projection market. I don't see a future RPTV market.

and i don't see a future SED market

isn' the new Samsung LED DLP superior when it comes to Response time/motion handling and Blacks?...I'm still confused on how DLPs handle motion, isn't it the closest thing to CRT? ... What can i say, motion is really important to me, so which tech out there is the leader in this department?

The answer hasn't changed since the other times you've posted this question in this thread. As far as motion goes, DLP surpases CRT. And there is not anything specific about LED sets that makes them necessarily better with motion. It still comes down to how fast the mirrors can respond. Whether you have LEDs that cycle the colors on/off, or a lamp that stays on and cycles the color with a wheel, the response is determined by the DLP, not the light source. A Samsung only has three colors to cycle through, where the current Mits lamp based DLPs cycle through 5 colors, but they are both inherently 120hz sets, so the Samsung may simply be cycling through the colors more times for one frame than the Mits is. The Laservue is back to three colors, but is still a 120hz set. The fact that DLP can respond faster is irrelevent... you are going to be limited to the 120hz refresh rate that is native to all three flavors.

A Samsung only has three colors to cycle through, where the current Mits lamp based DLPs cycle through 5 colors, but they are both inherently 120hz sets, so the Samsung may simply be cycling through the colors more times for one frame than the Mits is. The Laservue is back to three colors, but is still a 120hz set. The fact that DLP can respond faster is irrelevent... you are going to be limited to the 120hz refresh rate that is native to all three flavors.

I am confused while I understand that it works using red, green and blue lasers, page two of the LaserVue specifications states that it has "Mitsubishi Exclusive 6-Color Processor".

I take it that this must somehow mix or blend the RGB lasers into colors that fall in between RGB?

LaserVue specifications states that it has "Mitsubishi Exclusive 6-Color Processor".

So do the current bulb based sets with the five color wheel. I assume the "six color processor" is just that... signal processing that deals in six distinct colors (primaries and secondaries). It later has to be "downmixed" to five (or three) colors.

Originally posted by Mixdoctor:
I see you are in the UK. Not sure about there but, here in the US DLP is dying out. Go into any electronics store and you will see that DLP is relegated to a corner or a small part of the display area and each time I go back into stores that area gets smaller and smaller.

It's not just the UK. I just spent the last 4 months in Stuttgart Germany and I saw 1 RPTV after visiting 3 different stores. Two of them were large stores with about the same number of sets a BB Magnolia store would have, (Media Market and Saturn). The other was a sporting goods store with an electronics department on the 4th floor and a bar on the 5th; my favorite store. :) Anyway, I saw flat panels that I have never even seen displayed in the US.

So do the current bulb based sets with the five color wheel. I assume the "six color processor" is just that... signal processing that deals in six distinct colors (primaries and secondaries). It later has to be "downmixed" to five (or three) colors.

The bulb based Mitsi's actually use a six color wheel, not five. One color for each primary and secondary color. The six color processor is just part of the color management system and is independant of the source (laser or color wheel). They use the six color processor to enable their PerfectColor and PerfectTint tools.

Also, there is no downmixing. For laservue, there are RGB. Those are mixed together to get the secondary colors just as all other HDTVs do regardless of type.

Who do you think you are with your personal insults? No, I am not a multimillionaire and don't have that kind of disposable income, do you? I does not mean I wasn't in the market for this set. I wouldn't spend $7K on a TV whether she let me or not and I don’t need to with my Direct Buy membership.

This started out because you think somebody should go out and buy this set and run a diagnostic on it just because they said they might. Then you proceed to tell them how easy it is and badger them. Since you are quote “in the market”, why don’t you drive/fly to a location that has one and check it out yourself.

It’s been stated by multiple people that this set is not worth the money, the black levels don’t match a Kuro, etc. What’s it matter if somebody runs a diagnostic on it? How will that change anything for you who is "in the market" for one.


All your questions have been previously answered in earlier posts. If you truly want the answer, I suggest you re-read them.

The bulb based Mitsi's actually use a six color wheel, not five. One color for each primary and secondary color.
You are probably refering to last years models.
Current year uses 5 colors on the color wheel. They removed magenta and made red double in size.

A best buy magnolia manager told me that a Mitsu Rep told him that there will be two blue lasers. I dont know if thats true or not.

You are probably refering to last years models.
Current year uses 5 colors on the color wheel. They removed magenta and made red double in size.

Link? Not saying your wrong. But would like to read up on it.

You are probably refering to last years models.
Current year uses 5 colors on the color wheel. They removed magenta and made red double in size.

Hmm, there appears to be no mention of a wheel in either of the 835 pdfs that I can find online. All I can find in that there is a 6 colour engine.

Yes, please, provide a link.

Seggers

http://mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD73835_specsheet.pdf
http://mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/735-736-835_OG.pdf

Hmm, there appears to be no mention of a wheel in either of the 835 pdfs that I can find online. All I can find in that there is a 6 colour engine.

Yes, please, provide a link.

Seggers

http://mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD73835_specsheet.pdf
http://mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/735-736-835_OG.pdf

http://www.3diamonds.com

Link? Not saying your wrong. But would like to read up on it.
open 1 up and you will see.

The answer hasn't changed since the other times you've posted this question in this thread. As far as motion goes, DLP surpases CRT. And there is not anything specific about LED sets that makes them necessarily better with motion. It still comes down to how fast the mirrors can respond. Whether you have LEDs that cycle the colors on/off, or a lamp that stays on and cycles the color with a wheel, the response is determined by the DLP, not the light source. A Samsung only has three colors to cycle through, where the current Mits lamp based DLPs cycle through 5 colors, but they are both inherently 120hz sets, so the Samsung may simply be cycling through the colors more times for one frame than the Mits is. The Laservue is back to three colors, but is still a 120hz set. The fact that DLP can respond faster is irrelevent... you are going to be limited to the 120hz refresh rate that is native to all three flavors.

I thought DLP was a motion champ as well, but HD Guru gave DLP a bottom tier motion rating in his latest review:

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-the-hdtv-resolution-you-expected-125-2008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/

(It's in the PDF.)

(I hope he was wrong...)

open 1 up and you will see.

That link requires a login and password and I don't see any way to sign up for one.

I thought DLP was a motion champ as well, but HD Guru gave DLP a bottom tier motion rating in his latest review:

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-the-hdtv-resolution-you-expected-125-2008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/

(It's in the PDF.)

(I hope he was wrong...)


So Samsungs LED LCD 950 is clearly the winner when it came to Motion out of the Plasmas, LCDs and then DLP Mentioned...But, only when the 950 is set on Motion Plus and with the Interpolation set to 'Low'....does that in any way effect PQ?

Anyways, will Samsung be pumping out any new LED LCDs in their March Lineup? If they do(which they probably will) they'll probably fix the viewing angle and blooming effect problem that the 950 had. What i want to see though is for them to make a step regarding motion, honestly how long will it take for these HDTVS to pump out CRT-like motion?

It seems like the new LED LCDs are the best when it comes to this, and from what i've seen LCOS is fantastic, but CRT is still king when it comes to this.

Hmm, there appears to be no mention of a wheel in either of the 835 pdfs that I can find online. All I can find in that there is a 6 colour engine.

Yes, please, provide a link.

Seggers

Can't find anything directly from Mits but from an HD Guru article:

"There are seven DLP HDTV rear projectors in the Mitsubishi 2008 line. Improvements for 2008 include the latest Texas Instruments Dark Chip DLP chip, thinner frames, and an improved light engine with 18% greater brightness. Mitsubishi moves from a 6-color wheel to a 5-color wheel, while maintaining its 6 color signal processor."

Link to article (http://hdguru.com/the-madness-continues-part-ii-2008-mitsubishi-panasonic/230/)

Dan

Can't find anything directly from Mits but from an HD Guru article:

"There are seven DLP HDTV rear projectors in the Mitsubishi 2008 line. Improvements for 2008 include the latest Texas Instruments Dark Chip DLP chip, thinner frames, and an improved light engine with 18% greater brightness. Mitsubishi moves from a 6-color wheel to a 5-color wheel, while maintaining its 6 color signal processor."

Link to article (http://hdguru.com/the-madness-continues-part-ii-2008-mitsubishi-panasonic/230/)

Dan

Dan,

Cheers for this, but it's not a reason to send it back.

Seggers

So Samsungs LED LCD 950 is clearly the winner when it came to Motion out of the Plasmas, LCDs and then DLP Mentioned...But, only when the 950 is set on Motion Plus and with the Interpolation set to 'Low'....does that in any way effect PQ?

Anyways, will Samsung be pumping out any new LED LCDs in their March Lineup? If they do(which they probably will) they'll probably fix the viewing angle and blooming effect problem that the 950 had. What i want to see though is for them to make a step regarding motion, honestly how long will it take for these HDTVS to pump out CRT-like motion?

It seems like the new LED LCDs are the best when it comes to this, and from what i've seen LCOS is fantastic, but CRT is still king when it comes to this.The motion plus and interpolation is what causes the (horrid for many) soap opera effect.

I just bought a 52" LCD set today and all of the sets in the store looked good, with very little difference in picture quality. The laser TVs will have to be something I cannot yet imagine to justify the MSRP they are asking. The huge difference there use to be between sets is gone and that represents a triumph of the free market system. I use to hate LCD sets, then as they got better I could tolerate them, and today I bought one because they had the best picture at the best price in just the right size for me. I was blown away by how good the picture was and how little I paid for my new TV, ...$58 less that my 1" diagonal smaller CRT based RPTV I bought 4 years ago.

I think lasers will really show their stuff on front projection, where bulb costs and low light output are still a major problem. With lasers you can have ultra-high lumen output and great contrast all at the same time. Right now if you want a high lumen torch in front projection, you have to accept a low contrast ratio or pay $40,000 for a monster projector. With lasers we will eventually have $2,000., 2000 lumen projectors with real world contrast ratios over 20,000 to 1 and more.

IB

Right now if you want a high lumen torch in front projection, you have to accept a low contrast ratio or pay $40,000 for a monster projector.

Perhaps, but few people actually want a high lumen torch. Current under $5000 projectors are plenty bright enough for HT use (including the new Panny 3000 which just hit projectorpeople for $2500)

You may be right, but those like me who like custom giant screen REAR PROJECTION installations with screen sizes of 119" to 133" diagonal need a torch! I like watching TV and movies with the lights on, not in a cave. The new Mitsubishi HD 8000 puts out an advertised 5000 lumens but the contrast ratio is listed at 1000:1. Few consumers feel that is high enough for home theater.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HD8000.htm

With lasers you can get 5000 lumens using less wattage and with a 30,000 hour lifespan on the lasers, and with high contrast to-boot.

IB

I like watching TV and movies with the lights on, not in a cave.

I'll watch TV with the lights on, but movies are shown in the dark.



PS. It's called a HT, not a cave.

65" Laservue.....$7000 List.....better be better than ANYTHING bare none or it's a joke.:rolleyes:

I'll watch TV with the lights on, but movies are shown in the dark.


Wish I could find a big digital display that is good enough to do that.
Next years Panasonic-Pioneer joint venture Plasma’s seem like the only option on the horizon at this stage, but I want 70" minimum.

Well, TV is relegated to a 65" DLP, but movies are on a 126" FP.

You may be right, but those like me who like custom giant screen REAR PROJECTION installations with screen sizes of 119" to 133" diagonal need a torch! I like watching TV and movies with the lights on, not in a cave. The new Mitsubishi HD 8000 puts out an advertised 5000 lumens but the contrast ratio is listed at 1000:1. Few consumers feel that is high enough for home theater.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HD8000.htm

With lasers you can get 5000 lumens using less wattage and with a 30,000 hour lifespan on the lasers, and with high contrast to-boot.

IB


As noted previously, what is a Contrast Ratio of 1000:1 for one Mitsubishi test can be a Contrast Ratio of 100:1 in another test and 10000:1 in yet another (though I will give them credit of at least stating it is measured with a full off/on which would eliminate the 100:1 in this example - they still do not list the size window they use which makes serious differences in the results - want better results? Just change the size of the window! as there is no Industry Standard).

Published contrast ratios mean nothing and any consumer using that is making a serious error.

Well, TV is relegated to a 65" DLP, but movies are on a 126" FP.

No blacks on a DLP, and unless the projector is CRT and the room is totally dark there is no chance of anything approaching black with it either.
For lights off viewing I want real blacks on my next display, otherwise no point in replacing what I have.
Call me fussy if you like, but I am not happy with any shade of grey in place of black.

Wish I could find a big digital display that is good enough to do that.
Next years Panasonic-Pioneer joint venture Plasma’s seem like the only option on the horizon at this stage, but I want 70" minimum.

FYI, there's talk about Panasonic releasing an 85" NeoPDP in the first half of 2009. I'm sure if they do it will be quite pricey.

They are working on an 85” NeoPDP, and it may appear in the first half of 2009 if the Panasonic bigwigs decide to put in into production in 2009. This model was part of a previous cooperative agreement with Hitachi, before the companies’ decision to merge their respective plasma technologies.

http://www.hdguru.com/

No blacks on a DLP, and unless the projector is CRT and the room is totally dark there is no chance of anything approaching black with it either.
For lights off viewing I want real blacks on my next display, otherwise no point in replacing what I have.
Call me fussy if you like, but I am not happy with any shade of grey in place of black.

It is certainly possible to get black with DLP if the light source is switchable. That is one of the potential advantages of lasers. DLP does not inherently generate light.

It is certainly possible to get black with DLP if the light source is switchable. That is one of the potential advantages of lasers.


Not if there is some non back content on the screen that requires the light source to be on.

FYI, there's talk about Panasonic releasing an 85" NeoPDP in the first half of 2009. I'm sure if they do it will be quite pricey.







I expect it will be pricey, and a hell of a lot more then the $7k that people seem to consider so outrageous.

I expect it will be pricey, and a hell of a lot more then the $7k that people seem to consider so outrageous.

Owen,

Speaking only for myself, 7k is outrageous only because the performance of the set does not equate to that number. If it had CRT quality blacks, and no screen crawl, I'd be saving up the money for the 73" model right now. To my eyes the picture is just not as good as the top of the line Panny or Elite plasma. Both of which street for well less than 7k. Hence, I don't see the value to support the price.

Regarding your earlier post, I'm with you 100% on black level. My sets main weakness is its black level. If I can't get CRT level black, no upgrade for me either.

No blacks on a DLP, and unless the projector is CRT and the room is totally dark there is no chance of anything approaching black with it either.
For lights off viewing I want real blacks on my next display, otherwise no point in replacing what I have.
Call me fussy if you like, but I am not happy with any shade of grey in place of black.

Actually the blacks on my DLP are pretty good and even better when you consider I bought my 65" for $1200 a year ago. Originally it was just to tied me over until LaserVue came out, but now I'm probably going to keep it as the pic is very nice and I don't need pitch black blacks to watch Seinfeld and the Peoples Court.
The PJ is LCD and you're correct, the blacks aren't stellar. However, for a 4 year old PJ is does a pretty decent job and the only time I notice the blacks are when watching scope movies. It's also the next piece of equipment I'll be upgrading.

No blacks on a DLP, and unless the projector is CRT and the room is totally dark there is no chance of anything approaching black with it either.
For lights off viewing I want real blacks on my next display, otherwise no point in replacing what I have.
Call me fussy if you like, but I am not happy with any shade of grey in place of black.

What a completely inaccurate statement...

I have a Mitsubishi WD-65835 and my blacks are better than my Sony LCD XBR5

I expect it will be pricey, and a hell of a lot more then the $7k that people seem to consider so outrageous.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit. I actually only poster it because I knew your price range would be higher than that. It may be well above 10k for all I know but just a thought just in case. :)

What a completely inaccurate statement...


How so? I am not aware of any DLP that can match a G8 Kuro let alone a G9 for black level, and the G9 cant do black either. G10 will reportedly be the first Plasma to be able to turn its pixels off completely and that’s what I want. If some other technology comes up with the goods I’ll be interested in it as well.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit. I actually only poster it because I knew your price range would be higher than that. It may be well above 10k for all I know but just a thought just in case. :)

I would be surprised if an 85” came in under $20k. Its not that long ago that a crappy 60” 768p Plasma cost more then that.

On the Samsung showroom at Columbus Circle in Manhattan there is a 80" plasma (prototype) with no price . There is also a 70" LCD for more than 25K. Sony new 70" XBR7 has a 20K MSRP. My guesstimate for a 85" plasma is north of 40K . The Panny 103" is 70K.

On the Samsung showroom at Columbus Circle in Manhattan there is a 80" plasma (prototype) with no price . There is also a 70" LCD for more than 25K. Sony new 70" XBR7 has a 20K MSRP. My guesstimate for a 85" plasma is north of 40K . The Panny 103" is 70K.

You can get the 103 inch panny for 50,000 now , still over my budget

You can get the 103 inch panny for 50,000 now , still over my budget

A bargain :)

65" Laservue.....$7000 List.....better be better than ANYTHING bare none or it's a joke.:rolleyes:

The joke may be on MITS and possibly other pricey sets(Sony). In todays USA Today Business section, page one is an article titled HARD TIMES FOR FANCY ELECTRONICS. Here are several good lines:

"If you're thinking about buying that expensive big-screen TV- well, that's probably about as far as you're going to get."

"Tech analysts say the lousy economy may put the brakes on big-ticket electronics purchases over the next few months, with consumers bypassing luxury items such as expensive TV's and gaming systems, and opting for smaller, lower priced gadgets."

"TV's are going to be the hardest hit," says Richard Doherty, an independent analyst at the Envisioneering Group. He adds, "Things are slower right now than any September in this century."

Marty Singer, director of Web operations for New York retailer J&R Music World, says"sales aren't what they once were" but that TV's under $1,000.00 are still selling. Sounds like a great time for MITS to introduce a $7,000.00 DLP:eek:

Here we go with "black hole" blacks again. Video black is not no raster. You get this with "blacker than black" but it is rare. Look around, do you see any blacks that aren't reflecting light?

Originally posted by baddgsx:
You can get the 103 inch panny for 50,000 now , still over my budget

What about the 70" Sony that's coming out for $20K. :)

What about the 70" Sony that's coming out for $20K. :)

Even if i had the money to spend , I think 20K is still too much for a TV. Especially for a Sony 70 inch "LCD". I dont think that thing is even LED backlit.

I just bought a Pioneer 141-FD last week , upgrading my 2.5 year old JVC HD70FH96. The pioneer is a nice TV , but its improvements arent like going from SD to HD. Im still waiting on getting it ISF calibrated though. Im comparing right now a JVC ISF calibrated to a Pioneer 141 uncalibrated.

the most i will spend on a TV is 10K , it has to be kuro quality and no smaller than 75 inches

Going from a 70 inch to a 60 inch was VERY HARD!!!! I miss the in your face experience , but lucky i bought this nice wall mount that i can extend out 25 more inches from the wall. But thats starting to get annoying.

Look around, do you see any blacks that aren't reflecting light?

Um, space? There are also plenty of situations that have areas of total darkness as far as our eye's light sensitivity goes.

I thought DLP was a motion champ as well, but HD Guru gave DLP a bottom tier motion rating in his latest review:

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-the-hdtv-resolution-you-expected-125-2008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/

The response time of a particular technology and the "motion resolution" of a particular display are not necessarily related. That test is measuring the resolution while using an interlaced source. An interlaced source inherently loses resolution during motion. The fact that the set that won the test did so using processing to interpolate frames raises the question as to whether or not the processing is actually increasing apparent resolution above what is actually in the native signal. That certainly doesn't mean that LCD, as a display technology, has the fastest response time. In fact, the opposite is true. But you can have slow response time and still provide image processing that can improve the measured resolution of an interlaced source. Other factors that affect resolution of an interlaced source is how well it handles deinterlacing. Some displays do good 3:2 pulldown, some botch it up. But this is an issue of the processing of the signal upstream of the native response time of the technology used to create the image.

It's also important to note that processing used to enhance motion can actually harm response time. For example, the processing needed to introduce interpolated frames could impose an additional delay in the image being rendered on the screen, due to the upstream processing, but can still result in a higher measured motion resolution. So when asking about response time, it's important to determine what is actually important. Is someone asking because they use the display for video games and want low lag, or is it because they watch a lot of sports and want image enhancement of high motion scenes? Technology to improve the latter can harm the former, so it's important to understand the goal. But if it's the former that one is after, then the question isn't "which display technology is better with motion", it's "which display is better with motion". Because for the latter, the processing used can be as important or even more important than whether the technology used is LCD, DLP, CRT, or whatever. If, for example, Mit's own 120hz smooth motion (or whatever they call it) is as good as (or better than) Sammy's, then the 835 series might measure higher motion resolution than the 735 or 735 series, even though they use the exact same DLP chips.

The joke may be on MITS and possibly other pricey sets(Sony). In todays USA Today Business section, page one is an article titled HARD TIMES FOR FANCY ELECTRONICS. Here are several good lines:

"If you're thinking about buying that expensive big-screen TV- well, that's probably about as far as you're going to get."

"Tech analysts say the lousy economy may put the brakes on big-ticket electronics purchases over the next few months, with consumers bypassing luxury items such as expensive TV's and gaming systems, and opting for smaller, lower priced gadgets."

"TV's are going to be the hardest hit," says Richard Doherty, an independent analyst at the Envisioneering Group. He adds, "Things are slower right now than any September in this century."

Marty Singer, director of Web operations for New York retailer J&R Music World, says"sales aren't what they once were" but that TV's under $1,000.00 are still selling. Sounds like a great time for MITS to introduce a $7,000.00 DLP:eek:
Looks like 65 inch Laservue will be in Boston area the first week of Nov. Was told price will be discounted to $6500.

Um, space? There are also plenty of situations that have areas of total darkness as far as our eye's light sensitivity goes.

I suspect this was started by Owen's comment about black level. Owen implies he's not going to accept anything less than a black level of .000. The 9G Kuro measures a measly .001. My comment on this is the ability to produce an absolute black would have such limited utility in real world viewing as to be unnecessary. I prefer to watch with some light in the room to reduce eye strain. Bill suggests that any ambient light renders moot the ability to produce absolute black. If that is his point, I concurr.

Technically one could say that the 9G Kuro doesn't produce an absolute black, but a shade of grey instead. Owen is entitled to prefer perfection, but to say the 9G Kuro doesn't come close enough is a little hard. Either way, the laservue doesn't come close to the black level of the 9G Kuro. The next set I purchase will.

I have a Mitsubishi WD-65835 and my blacks are better than my Sony LCD XBR5

Don't take this the wrong way but that's not saying much. I've seen the XBR4 in a darkened room and my Sony 60XBR1 has deeper black levels than it and the SXRD can't hold a candle next to my 9G Kuro as far as black levels are concerned. As good as the 9G blacks are there's still room for improvement.

Well saw it today, what a disapointment- RBE! That alone kills it for me. Black levels are not my bugaboo but I will say that it crushed blacks! I asked the very defensive salesman to adjust the contrast and the brightness levels but it didn't help. I told him my CRT-RPTV blows it away, that made him go into attack mode. Trying to put down the picture on my set (that I bought from his store!) with untruths. I tried to get him to change the source material from the Mitsubishi provided demo to what the other TVs were displaying to see if maybe it was the source. He said Mitsubishi has forbidden that, not a good sign. It is bright but not where it stands out from any other set in the store and the color didn't cause me to think that is better either. This set is a bust AFAIC.

I think what Bill is getting at is that video black is actually a digital level of 16 not 0, video level 0 is known as “blacker then black”, however a correctly calibrated display will display level 16 as black, or as black as the display is capable of. Video level 0 will look no darker; if it does the brightness control is set too high.

For a cinema environment (dark room), the sort of black level attained by a G9 Kuro is certainly not black, there is still a significant glow which degrades image depth.

I don't understand the need for higher contrast ratios. I just bought a LG 52LG70 52" LCD TV and the blacks are great, and the specs say the contrast ratio is only 15,000 to 1 dynamic, which means 2 or 3k static, I assume. Whatever the real numbers are, I had to dial down the contrast on the TV as the factor settings were too high. Too much contrast makes the picture look unnatural. Have you ever looked out your window and said "Wow! What a great contrast ratio my back yard has!"?

Real life vision is soft, with moderate contrast, and without razor sharp lines and hard edges. If even current LCD flat panel technology is good enough contrast wise, I don't think lasers will sell other than for their advantage of long life and larger screen size. 65" for a laser TV is too small at that price point. At 3k it would be OK. For lasers to show their potential they should start with 73" and move up to 85", the largest size that is reasonable to ship. I would also like to see laser driven DILA and LCD RPTVs, not just the DLPs. JVC had a 110" DILA RPTV as a demo a couple of years ago. Why not make it for real and a affordable 85" version with lasers?

IB

I don't understand the need for higher contrast ratios. I just bought a LG 52LG70 52" LCD TV and the blacks are great, and the specs say the contrast ratio is only 15,000 to 1 dynamic, which means 2 or 3k static, I assume. Whatever the real numbers are, I had to dial down the contrast on the TV as the factor settings were too high. Too much contrast makes the picture look unnatural. Have you ever looked out your window and said "Wow! What a great contrast ratio my back yard has!"?


Higher contrast ratio’s can give you brighter whites, darker blacks or both.
Whites don’t need to be brighter on most TV’s in fact many are way too bright and need to turned down for nigh viewing, but blacks need a lot of improvement.

A display with a peak output of 30fl and a black level of 0.001fl has a CR of 30,000:1
Another display with a peak output of 30fl and a black level of 0.01fl has a CR of only 3,000:1. Take the black level down to 0.0001 and CR jumps up to 300,000:1.
A display with true blacks has an infinite contrast ratio, no matter how bright or dim it is.

Take two displays one with 300,000:1 and the other with 3000:1, but both with the same peak output of say 30fl. In a bright viewing environment they will look the same, but in a dark environment the display with 300,000:1 will look dramatically better due to the much lower black level.
The two display could well be delivering identical light levels to the viewer for inputs ranging from 17 to the nominal video maximum or 235, the only level that will be different is 16 (black), and that minor change makes a huge difference when viewing in a dim or dark environment.

I think what Bill is getting at is that video black is actually a digital level of 16 not 0, video level 0 is known as “blacker then black”, however a correctly calibrated display will display level 16 as black, or as black as the display is capable of. Video level 0 will look no darker; if it does the brightness control is set too high.

For a cinema environment (dark room), the sort of black level attained by a G9 Kuro is certainly not black, there is still a significant glow which degrades image depth.

I beleive when the standard was set, they knew black gives off light so setting ones TV to 0 level for 16 level blacks will hurt shadow detail. Sure space might have a slight glow but get something encoded with blacker than black for your "space" movies.

P.S. The Laservue doesn't have any shadow detail. If you want black hole blacks all over the screen, then it is the set for you.

What's with the hangup on blacks and contrast ratio? I guess you guys hate the movies because its blacks are not black enough and its contrast ratio is not high enough. :p Here's the true test , how close to real life does the picture look. When I'm watching my set, I forget I'm watching TV- HD of course.

I suspect this was started by Owen's comment about black level. Owen implies he's not going to accept anything less than a black level of .000. The 9G Kuro measures a measly .001. My comment on this is the ability to produce an absolute black would have such limited utility in real world viewing as to be unnecessary. I prefer to watch with some light in the room to reduce eye strain. Bill suggests that any ambient light renders moot the ability to produce absolute black. If that is his point, I concurr.

Technically one could say that the 9G Kuro doesn't produce an absolute black, but a shade of grey instead. Owen is entitled to prefer perfection, but to say the 9G Kuro doesn't come close enough is a little hard. Either way, the laservue doesn't come close to the black level of the 9G Kuro. The next set I purchase will.

We finally agree on something. The 9G Kuro doesn't produce black, however its not even a shade of grey.

They have been measured with a lumaniance meter to show something around 0.001fL - unfortunately it cannot tell you what color it is - only that the level is there. However, color measurements and simple optical comparitors have show it to be magenta, not black (or a shade of grey).

Thus Owen continues to look for absolute blacks - not absolute magentas.

Real life vision is soft, with moderate contrast, and without razor sharp lines and hard edges.
IB

Only if you have vision problems. I look at a razor now, hell it is sharp!

New in Depth review:

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/585-1/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-We-Meet-Again/

What's with the hangup on blacks and contrast ratio? I guess you guys hate the movies because its blacks are not black enough and its contrast ratio is not high enough. :p Here's the true test , how close to real life does the picture look. When I'm watching my set, I forget I'm watching TV- HD of course.
It's a superiority issue with some. Ego...

I'm with you on this.

[SIZE="5"][COLOR="Red"]New in Depth review...

Thanks for this. I am encouraged by the conclusion which reads:

"At the end of the day, I think this tech is going to make a significant impact on future generations of DLP sets. The advantages run across the board, and the only real limiting factor at this point is price. If you've got the cheddar/jack/swiss/bleu (pick your variant of cheese, just make sure you've got lots of it) to put one of these in your living room, you won't regret it. It'll bring you Grade-A, bona fide HD satisfaction. Once the price inevitably drops, it's going to be even more attractive."

In other words, Mitsibushi has a legitimate claim to the elite display market, and rear-projection is still alive for the forseeable future, although not surprisingly in a niche market.

Now if there was only a Laservue distributor up here in Canada...

New in Depth review:

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/585-1/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-We-Meet-Again/

I will add the pics...

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/585/IronMan_Comparison_Web.jpg

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/585/Kuro_Disc_Comparison_Web.jpg

Excellent color and shadow detail.

Chris

The reds sure have more pop.

Sorry if this was already posted but I just found it this morning:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1848456,00.html

Interesting review...

Judging from the pics and the reviewers comments, the LV appears to have better colour, sharpness, detail, and fast motion abilities - if having these 4 benefits is better than a theoretically better black level on the Kuro has got me thinking that the LaserVue PQ is a more balanced set overall - and therefore a better buying proposition !

If Mits can match the Kuro's street price I think the LV is destined to be a popular TV.

Looking forward to a review/comparison with calibrated sets for a more definitive answer to which is better.

BTW - which " value-added features " does the Kuro have that the Mits lacks ?

M.

We finally agree on something. The 9G Kuro doesn't produce black, however its not even a shade of grey.

They have been measured with a lumaniance meter to show something around 0.001fL - unfortunately it cannot tell you what color it is - only that the level is there. However, color measurements and simple optical comparitors have show it to be magenta, not black (or a shade of grey).

Thus Owen continues to look for absolute blacks - not absolute magentas.


You would think there would be more reviews about magenta blacks on the kuros. The new 55xbr is out and cnet thinks the 9g's have deeper blacks. If it was magenta i think some reviews would mention it. Certainly compared to the very best lcd.

I beleive when the standard was set, they knew black gives off light so setting ones TV to 0 level for 16 level blacks will hurt shadow detail. Sure space might have a slight glow but get something encoded with blacker than black for your "space" movies.



Video black is digital level 16 and white is level 235 (not 255) to allow head and toe room thus avoiding clipping or hard limiting.
A good display calibrated for black at level 16 and 2.5 gamma will show correct shadow detail and every level above 16. This is often very difficult to achieve with CRT due to black float issues.

Blacker then black is only relevant to video test disks used to calibrate displays. Once a display is calibrated you should not be able to see any difference between level 16 and level 0



What's with the hangup on blacks and contrast ratio? I guess you guys hate the movies because its blacks are not black enough and its contrast ratio is not high enough. :p Here's the true test , how close to real life does the picture look. When I'm watching my set, I forget I'm watching TV- HD of course.


Flim projected in a cinema has very poor blacks, and looks nothing like real life.
Dark scenes without true blacks will never look realistic.
A good CRT based display can have true blacks and looks much more realistic on dark scenes then any digital I have seen.

I guess I have spoken. This TV is a bust. End of discussion. Moderator, you can close this thread. :D

Ouch Bill, you have crushed my dreams. I think we can at least all agree the LV represents a leap forward in rear projection. Haven't seen it yet but from what I gather, it is the best DLP and the slimmest. It does have a huge energy advantage too. In addition, Novalux orginally claimed the laser tech could eventually be designed in a flat pannel configuration.

You can use lasers for back lighting LCD flat panel sets as well, not just for DLP rear projection.

IB

New in Depth review:

http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/585-1/Mitsubishi-LaserVue-65-HDTV-We-Meet-Again/

Any reviewer that doesnt calibrate bother sets prior to a review worse than a joke, especially when they used factory defaults.

I don't undrestand what all the fuss is about. People buy thing's because they like it. Not because someone so call expert say's it'e better. If that was the case we all would be driving Ford's, G.M., Exct. We all see things differently, What if it ha perfect blacks and the rest of it stink's to us. If you like perfect black's then that's the set you should buy, if you like bright colors, thats the set you should buy. Don't talk about calibrations to everyone because most people who buy set's don't have them calibrated. I have a few friend's who had there sets calibrated and didn't like it as much as out of the box. I had mind done and like it. My point is respect everyone's OPINIONS, because what they like is not what you or I would like. Other wise ther would be only one Brand and one line, and one president cand. running(lol). Let's stop the personanl attack's and go back to sharing our OPINIONS.

You would think there would be more reviews about magenta blacks on the kuros. The new 55xbr is out and cnet thinks the 9g's have deeper blacks. If it was magenta i think some reviews would mention it. Certainly compared to the very best lcd.

I've explained the way to prove it. Seems most don't want to take the challenge. They might have their holy grail exposed - sort of like how no one wants to make sure the LV (or the Kuro) is properly setup prior to comparisons.

What's with the hangup on blacks and contrast ratio? I guess you guys hate the movies because its blacks are not black enough and its contrast ratio is not high enough. :p Here's the true test , how close to real life does the picture look. When I'm watching my set, I forget I'm watching TV- HD of course.

Interesting, because ISF, THX, Pioneer and virtually every other Company states that Contrast Ratios (and thus blacks) are the #1 thing to considering in a great picture (which is why Pioneer is willing to change the color of the blacks for higher contrast ratios). Thus, if you have problems with the hangups on Contrast Ratios and blacks, then you are the one in the minority.

Any reviewer that doesnt calibrate bother sets prior to a review worse than a joke, especially when they used factory defaults.


Can we get that in English?

originally posted by soprano_777:
I don't undrestand what all the fuss is about. People buy thing's because they like it. Not because someone so call expert say's it'e better. If that was the case we all would be driving Ford's, G.M., Exct. We all see things differently, What if it ha perfect blacks and the rest of it stink's to us. If you like perfect black's then that's the set you should buy, if you like bright colors, thats the set you should buy. Don't talk about calibrations to everyone because most people who buy set's don't have them calibrated. I have a few friend's who had there sets calibrated and didn't like it as much as out of the box. I had mind done and like it. My point is respect everyone's OPINIONS, because what they like is not what you or I would like. Other wise ther would be only one Brand and one line, and one president cand. running(lol). Let's stop the personanl attack's and go back to sharing our OPINIONS.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately most people here are looking for perfection, not logic. Everybody wants a Bentley for the price of a Ford. :)

You can use lasers for back lighting LCD flat panel sets as well, not just for DLP rear projection. IB

That would be great to see in production.

For my situation, I have just under a 60" width between my wall mounted front channel speakers. The thin bezel of the 65" Mits will fit, but so will the thicker bezel, without the removable speakers, of the 60" Elite Kuro. That's a 5" screen size difference.

For about $7K, it would be nice if the Bentley priced sets, for a screen that size, had all the combined features of these sets. A decent thickness, approx. 5" would be reasonable, an almost non existent bezel, reasonably low power consumption, and a great ISF calibrated picture. One day...

Interesting, because ISF, THX, Pioneer and virtually every other Company states that Contrast Ratios (and thus blacks) are the #1 thing to considering in a great picture (which is why Pioneer is willing to change the color of the blacks for higher contrast ratios). Thus, if you have problems with the hangups on Contrast Ratios and blacks, then you are the one in the minority.

I'm perfectly happy with movie theater film projection (except the orange pushed film I hate). It, As Owen stated, "has very poor blacks" and a low contrast ratio. The rest is marketing hype. Everyone needs to check out what our eyes really can see. The Mitsubishi contrast ratio specs on my set in a room of 250 lux is 45:1 (65:1 in a dark room) but I dare anyone to show me a better picture. BTW, I generally watch my set at 16/60 contrast setting in a dim room.

Glad I got the discussion going again. :) Isn't RBE and crushed blacks (no shadow detail) a killer for everyone? This (#3) is what a picture should look like, no crushed blacks or whites. This (#43) is what the Laservue looks like, crushed blacks all over the place.

I'm perfectly happy with movie theater film projection (except the orange pushed film I hate). It, As Owen stated, "has very poor blacks" and a low contrast ratio. The rest is marketing hype. Everyone needs to check out what our eyes really can see. The Mitsubishi contrast ratio specs on my set in a room of 250 lux is 45:1 (65:1 in a dark room) but I dare anyone to show me a better picture. BTW, I generally watch my set at 16/60 contrast setting in a dim room.

Glad I got the discussion going again. :) Isn't RBE and crushed blacks (no shadow detail) a killer for everyone? This (#3) is what a picture should look like, no crushed blacks or whites. This (#43) is what the Laservue looks like, crushed blacks all over the place.

I prefer #43.

Much cuter. :D

This (#3) is what a picture should look like, no crushed blacks or whites. This (#43) is what the Laservue looks like, crushed blacks all over the place.

Was photo #43 taken off of an actual LaserVue display, or what you claim that the LaserVue "looks like"?

The reason that I bring this up, is that if one were to evauluate the comparison photos of Iron Man posted earlier, it is clearly evident (while I believe that Iron Man looks a bit orange in the photo of the LaserVue), the shadow detail in the background (particularly of the building), show a greater level of detail, when compared to the Kuros, which is slightly darker and soft by comparison.

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/585/IronMan_Comparison_Web.jpg

Does anyone else see what I am seeing? ...or is it my un-trained eye? In addition to that, photo #3 and #43 are obviously of different scenes. It is nearly impossible to fairly evaluate "black crush" without a side-by-side comparison of the same scenes on differing displays. For all anyone knows, the two scenes that you have provided were taken from the same display. I say this because in looking at the close-up of the bearded man, there is less black/shadows to be evaluated.

Not calling anyone a liar or fraud, but feel the need to question things so that facts (good as well as bad) are illuminated for all.

Until I see a "calibrated LaserVue" in person, or read a review from a reputable industry publication after having calibrated the display, I will remain both skeptical as well as cautiously optimistic regarding the LaserVue. I have been looking forward to this set since it was mentioned at 2007 WCES. While I could never justify to my wife, the need for a $7K television, I am confident and hopeful that the price will drop. Perhaps by the time that the second generation (hopefully) is released, we may find a 73" for under $5K.

Regards,
SPence

If Mits can match the Kuro's street price I think the LV is destined to be a popular TV.
As long as a person is using a stand, she is deep at 10+ inches. They do say they can be wall mounted. If they could have released this unit 2-3 years ago they would be selling like hot cakes. Hopefully they can put this technoligy in flat panels.

If the first gen laservue can look comparable to a Kuro (and better in some instances) this is at least promising. In my mind this price is too high since it's not a flat panel however I'm sure Mits is trying to makeup for R&D costs as this typically happens in any type of new technology. If they could only pull out this type of performance in a projector they'd really be in business.

If the first gen laservue can look comparable to a Kuro (and better in some instances) this is at least promising. In my mind this price is too high since it's not a flat panel however I'm sure Mits is trying to makeup for R&D costs as this typically happens in any type of new technology. If they could only pull out this type of performance in a projector they'd really be in business.

This is a good point. It has taken many generations to get PDP to the point that it is now, and we are comparing to the best of that technology. This is a first generation application of laser/DLP technology. It is very possible that future refinements will find a balance between colimation and diffusion, and between saturation and primary bandwidth. There are still other technologies besides DLP that might be useful with laser as well.

There are still other technologies besides DLP that might be useful with laser as well.
Lets hope so or Mits waisted a lot of money on R & D. Lets face it RP sets I do not think will be around in 3-5 years. Samsung and Mits are the only big hitters is RP. If one of these 2 stop making them, thats it, laser or not....

apology accepted

Sorry if this was already posted but I just found it this morning:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1848456,00.html

Picture #43 is indicative of the crushed blacks I saw. No adjusting could fix it. A TV should not look that bad OTB.

Lets hope so or Mits waisted a lot of money on R & D. Lets face it RP sets I do not think will be around in 3-5 years. Samsung and Mits are the only big hitters is RP. If one of these 2 stop making them, thats it, laser or not....


I think so too.....as unfortunate as that is. I just came back from my local Best Buy and they literally had three DLP's on display, 2 Samsungs 61"'s and a Mitsubishi 73". Circuit City had about 6 DLP's, some of which were open box sales. Time is running out on DLP's and Mitsubishi brought this new technology out too late, for too much at the wrong time at least for RP DLP.

My biggest worry now is that RP, even Laservue, will be gone before my 70XBR2 gives up the ghost and there won't be any 70" plus flat panels around for a reasonable amount.

Picture #43 is indicative of the crushed blacks I saw. No adjusting could fix it. A TV should not look that bad OTB.

But is that an actual image of a Laservue set or did you turn down the brightness on your tv to the point where your tv was crushing blacks and took the pic?

Realize that no tv on a showroom floor has been even remotely calibrated and yours has, so there's no way of looking at it on a showroom and knowing how it truly performs.

But is that an actual image of a Laservue set or did you turn down the brightness on your tv to the point where your tv was crushing blacks and took the pic?

Realize that no tv on a showroom floor has been even remotely calibrated and yours has, so there's no way of looking at it on a showroom and knowing how it truly performs.

Not a picture from the Laservue, Just what it looked like. Again, for this money the picture should be close to calibration OTB. That it looks this bad OTB is a bad sign to me. I pity people who buy this set and don't have it calibrated, that is if calibration can even fix it.

If one knows what a picture should look like, I don't know how anyone would buy this set from seeing it where I saw it. Like I said. I believe there is a reason the Laserviue had an exclusive source and the salesman wouldn't let me change it.

The "Ironman" pictures are a bright scene. There is no shadow detail to display except on his face and side which appears to be crushed.

The second picture added has no shadow detail either but they do have crushed whites. Look at where the woman's hair should be, is she bald? Is that dress supposed to be red? it isn't.

Not a picture from the Laservue, Just what it looked like. Again, for this money the picture should be close to calibration OTB. That it looks this bad OTB is a bad sign to me. I pity people who buy this set and don't have it calibrated, that is if calibration can even fix it.

If one knows what a picture should look like, I don't know how anyone would buy this set from seeing it where I saw it. Like I said. I believe there is a reason the Laserviue had an exclusive source and the salesman wouldn't let me change it.

In order to fairly evaluate things, could you please post an actual photo of the same dark scene on an actual LaserVue as well as the same scene shown (to demonstrate loss of detail) on a television with none of the alleged 'black crush' that you have seen fit to 'simulate'?

Until you can do so - I'm guessing most reading this thread will stand along with me, skeptical of your claim.

Please try to prove what you claim without the use of simulation.

Regards,
Spence

Not a picture from the Laservue, Just what it looked like. Again, for this money the picture should be close to calibration OTB. That it looks this bad OTB is a bad sign to me. I pity people who buy this set and don't have it calibrated, that is if calibration can even fix it.

If one knows what a picture should look like, I don't know how anyone would buy this set from seeing it where I saw it. Like I said. I believe there is a reason the Laserviue had an exclusive source and the salesman wouldn't let me change it.

99.9% of the people who buy a TV are completely uninformed and have no idea what a picture "should" look like. There are a few that do, but they are few and far between.

I have yet to see any set from any manufacturer at any price that even comes close to calibrated OTB. Did you not have your tv calibrated?

As far as the dress on the woman or the hair. We have no idea what color it should actually be as the Kuro is known to not display colors correctly either. I'm sure the Mitsi is off too since neither of them were properly calibrated.

Point is, you can't say one or the other is crushing whites or blacks when they have never been calibrated properly. Maybe they were at that particular time, but that's not a fair assessment of either tech.

I'll be very surprised if a calibration fixes the Laservue if it wasn't the source material which I really doubt. I can't imagine Mitsubishi wanted their demo to look like that.

P.S. I've never seen a TV that bad OTB. My set came from the factory needing very little calibration- the way it should be for a top of the line set. You know the Qualia came with a disabled component in that was limiting it to 1280 lines of resolution that a calibrator had to find out how to fix. Totally unexceptable!

I will add the pics...

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/585/IronMan_Comparison_Web.jpg

http://www.thetechlounge.com/files/articles/585/Kuro_Disc_Comparison_Web.jpg

Excellent color and shadow detail.

Chris

Why are the Kuro pictures so Blurry?

All I know is that the details in the building (behind Iron Man) look much better on the Laser and the colors of the woman's clothes also looks better with the Laser (and I believed the article mentioned that they thought the woman was wearing all red until the viewed it on the Laser and realized she had a ruby top and orange bottoms).

Anyone who has taken photos of a TV would know its virtually impossible to get an even half descent depiction of dynamic range, black level, shadow detail and color accuracy.
Photos are basically worthless for evaluation of a TV.

If you want to know what the picture “should” look like play the video on a fully calibrated high quality PC monitor with known accurate primary colors conforming to the REC 709 standard (preferable CRT for black levels). The other option is a freshly calibrated professional broadcast monitor.
A lighting controlled environment will also be required.
Only then will you know what color and shadow detail “should” look like.

I agree Owen, but when the reviewer describes what he's seeing and the photos show that same thing, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Both displays could have more shadow detail than what is shown on my monitor, but one is still better than the other. Both displays might have better color accuracy than what is shown, but one is still better than the other.

Anyone who has taken photos of a TV would know its virtually impossible to get an even half descent depiction of dynamic range, black level, shadow detail and color accuracy.
Photos are basically worthless for evaluation of a TV.

If you want to know what the picture “should” look like play the video on a fully calibrated high quality PC monitor with known accurate primary colors conforming to the REC 709 standard (preferable CRT for black levels). The other option is a freshly calibrated professional broadcast monitor.
A lighting controlled environment will also be required.
Only then will you know what color and shadow detail “should” look like.

You're quite right, most people don't know what total shadow detail looks like. When I see all the photos with crushed blacks posted, it is obvious. I use to stare and wonder how people didn't notice the greater shadow detail on the CRT-RPTVs when they were still in the stores. Most are mesmerized by the pop/torch mode. Unfortunately this must be what the Laservue is going for. The contrast was set all the way up, while the brightness was half way. The only time I watch my set in torch mode is when all the blinds are up and sunlight is streaming into the room to warm the room.

I'm perfectly happy with movie theater film projection (except the orange pushed film I hate). It, As Owen stated, "has very poor blacks" and a low contrast ratio. The rest is marketing hype. Everyone needs to check out what our eyes really can see. The Mitsubishi contrast ratio specs on my set in a room of 250 lux is 45:1 (65:1 in a dark room) but I dare anyone to show me a better picture. BTW, I generally watch my set at 16/60 contrast setting in a dim room.

Glad I got the discussion going again. :) Isn't RBE and crushed blacks (no shadow detail) a killer for everyone? This (#3) is what a picture should look like, no crushed blacks or whites. This (#43) is what the Laservue looks like, crushed blacks all over the place.

As stated, ad naseum, in this thread and others, your Contrast Ration specs mean nothing unless you can tell us how they were arrived at as there is no standardized spec for the size of the window.

Quoting a Contrast Ratio without knowing how it is arrived at is as bad as reviewing the LV and Kuro without properly setting them up - so no one knows why the picture looks the way they do.

I agree Owen, but when the reviewer describes what he's seeing and the photos show that same thing, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Both displays could have more shadow detail than what is shown on my monitor, but one is still better than the other. Both displays might have better color accuracy than what is shown, but one is still better than the other.


I would not make any judgment on which is better because I have no reference point.
More color or more shadow detail is not necessarily “better”, you can have too much of both. I would need to see the same video displayed on a know accurate monitor before I would make comment on which is “better”.

You're quite right, most people don't know what total shadow detail looks like. When I see all the photos with crushed blacks posted, it is obvious. I use to stare and wonder how people didn't notice the greater shadow detail on the CRT-RPTVs when they were still in the stores. Most are mesmerized by the pop/torch mode. Unfortunately this must be what the Laservue is going for. The contrast was set all the way up, while the brightness was half way. The only time I watch my set in torch mode is when all the blinds are up and sunlight is streaming into the room to warm the room.

Bill, I believe you said you had a Mitsubishi display, what type is it DLP, CRT RPTV?

I would not make any judgment on which is better because I have no reference point.
More color or more shadow detail is not necessarily “better”, you can have too much of both. I would need to see the same video displayed on a know accurate monitor before I would make comment on which is “better”.

My reference point is the reviewer stating as such (and it is taken with a grain of salt). If I saw two screen shots of the same picture and one was clearly blue and one was clearly purple on my monitor I would not be able to determine which had the right color (if either). However, if the pictures were accompanied by text from a reviewer that stated the picture was supposed to be blue, I'd be more inclined to believe that the set showing blue had better color accuracy. Doesn't mean it has perfect color accuracy, doesn't even mean it is better, but that's the way I'd lean. With those pics and the accompanying article, I'm leaning towards the Laser having better detail and color. Won't know for sure until I see it, but that's the way I'm leaning with the current information I've been given. We all have initial impressions, rightly or wrongly.

That review seems completely subjective; there are no tests for color points, grey scale or gamma. There was not even a known good reference monitor on hand, what a waste of time.

I agree it could have been better, but I wouldn't call it a waste. After all, most of us view movies on our displays, not test patterns. I'm interested in finding out all the details, but at this point I'm happy to get opinions on what it looks like (and if it looks better) from people that view many displays.

More info will come eventually.

The review at least gave us a general idea of what to expect. My guess is that the reviewers weren't going for a full calibration review and I'd also guess that they may have not been allowed to give the sets a full calibration. I'd also guess their reviews were intended for the general public also and not the AVS perfectionists :).

Personally, I am not wealthy and my Samsung HLN617W is 5 years old. I love DLP for many of the reasons others on this forum do, and it would certainly be hard to go with a smaller screen size than the 61" I now have. To stay at the 60" and up arena with LCD or plasma would cost way more than a 67" LED DLP. :eek:

Thus the reason I am interested in getting a large size for a reasonable amount of $$$$ (all subjective of course).

I have watched a Samsung 67" LED based DLP and the picture it can produce is really very good. Heck, I think my bulb based 61" is still very good. High def images look wonderful. Samsung makes fantastic DLP's!

I still feel that the real comparison here needs to be between two DLP sets of similar size and light sources.... LED vs LASER. (No bulbs thank you very much!) ;)

Can't wait to read about that comparison.

Personally, I am not wealthy and my Samsung HLN617W is 5 years old...

The Samsung HLN617W was my first big screen TV years ago. I can tell you that pretty much about anything available today is going to be a large upgrade for you as far as PQ is concerned. . I still remember how poor black levels were on that TV as well as never being able to get rid of the greenish tint. In fact, that TV is the reason I am so picky about black levels today. I never realized how inadequate the black levels were on this TV until I got it home and viewed it in a darkened room. You will also be surprised how much shadow detail you are going to get out of any of todays TVs compared to the 617W as well. When I watched the first Spiderman movie on my old 617W and saw where the Green Goblin dropped MJ off on the bridge was almost enough to make me send the TV back to the store due to the lack of shadow details. :eek:

What's funny is that my 6020 cost about the same price I paid for the HLN617W. :)

I can tell you that pretty much about anything available today is going to be a large upgrade for you as far as PQ is concerned.

I agree that "most' newer TV's have better picture capabilities. I will say that I purchased a colorimeter and did a calibration on my own. I was able to get the grey scale and other settings as close as possible with this TV and I thought it was a little dark...so after a few more tweaks it ended up looking really quite good. Yes, yes, yes the blacks are not very black :( but it still produces a very good hi-def picture.

Anyway...I want to be able to replace this thing with the same size or larger for the amount that Samsung is now charging for their 67" DLP. The LaserVu is way too much for a DLP, no matter how good the PQ.

That's why I'm interested in seeing a review of the LED set compared to the Laser set. Calibrated would be the best for both so that the comparison can be somewhat even.

I highly doubt that the LaserVu will be worth the 4k more that it is going for. ;)

I'd be down with LaserVue, but the fact they'll cost a fortune and the limmited sizes(65" being the smallest) is a huge turn off...And i doubt they'll release a 50", if so i'll be totaly interested....for now, i'm just sticking with my CRT until there's a display that can match its PQ.

I'd be down with LaserVue, but the fact they'll cost a fortune and the limmited sizes(65" being the smallest) is a huge turn off...And i doubt they'll release a 50", if so i'll be totaly interested....for now, i'm just sticking with my CRT until there's a display that can match its PQ.

Also, Thanksgiving to Christmas prices on large-screen TVs are going to drop and drop and drop, because this economy is going to hit retailers hard and they'll be anxious to make sales. CC is getting ready to close 150 stores, I hear. The LaserVue will likely not drop in price, which means the price per TV inch will be way too much in comparison to the other options. So buy a nice $2,500 TV that will hold you over for 3 years, save the $4,000 difference, and buy a 2nd-generation Laservue in January 2012 for a much more reasoable price and put your new 2008/2009 TV in the bedroom or rec room or sell it to your kids.

Bill, I believe you said you had a Mitsubishi display, what type is it DLP, CRT RPTV?

Mitsubishi 73713 CRT-RPTV. Do you think any new TV would have a contrast ratio rating of 45:1? :D

"Meanwhile, Poynton says, a typical TV in a typical living room will sometimes provide a simultaneous contrast ratio of just 20:1!" From this web page- http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/search/label/Advanced%20HDTV

I can't believe no one has commented on the fact that the Laservue has Rainbow Effect. Way more so than Mitsubishi's current DLPs. :eek:

I'd be down with LaserVue, but the fact they'll cost a fortune and the limmited sizes(65" being the smallest) is a huge turn off...And i doubt they'll release a 50", if so i'll be totaly interested....for now, i'm just sticking with my CRT until there's a display that can match its PQ.

Don't hold your breath. :)

I can't believe no one has commented on the fact that the Laservue has Rainbow Effect. Way more so than Mitsubishi's current DLPs. :eek:

Bill?

Are you making this up as you go? I mean, any rational person would think that had you actually seen the LaserVue (knowing how fond you are of the LaserVue), and had it been every bit as terrible as you are making it out to be, that you would have at the very least seen fit to mention it having Rainbow Effect.

I am beginning to think that since we have pretty much discounted your 'simulated' black crush, you now feel to bring another alleged negative up?

It is indeed curious (as you have pointed out) that in the few reviews (have yet to read a review of a calibrated LaserVue to this date) have not mentioned this Rainbow Effect. Why it's almost as if there was no Rainbow Effect seen by those reviewing it! Wow! And now you, of course, come forward with yet another reason in an attempt to turn off anyone who has yet to see a LaserVue with their own eyes!

Why, it's almost like a child interrupting a conversation to tell a story, and then once the adults resume their conversation, the child interrupts again to tell an even larger version of the same story.

I'm sorry Bill, but I am extremely skeptical of your claims.

You need to reread my review, RBE is there. Appology accepted. :) As far as black crush, don't take my word for it, go see for yourself. Then come back and tell me it doesn't look like the picture I used as an example.

I would completely expect it to have RBE, as it's nothing other than a different light source. It's still switching colors multiple times per frame to produce a full color image. What doesn't make sense is why it would be worse than other Mits DLPs. Unless the fact that there's more colors in a Mits wheel based system makes it less noticeable. But if that were the case, I would think the LED models would also be known for having worse RBE, but they aren't.

Don't hold your breath. :)


All i know is i'm definitly going HD when the Wii2 rolls around in 2011. And by then, HDTVS will have to be on par with CRT...but damn that's 2-3 years away....arghhh. Well, i guess it will be interesting to see what rolls out for the new Spring Lineup......the newer LED LCDs and Plasmas should be be interesting, and hopefully CNET reviews the 65" LaserVue soon

You need to reread my review, RBE is there. Apology accepted. :) As far as black crush, don't take my word for it, go see for yourself. Then come back and tell me it doesn't look like the picture I used as an example.

Yup! My apologies if I missed something. I was only thinking as far back as your photos and the discussion regarding Black Crush. I'll back track and re-read your review.

I can't wait to see one of these for myself, however it would appear that Wisconsin's state capitol doesn't have the high end specialty stores. Our local "American TV" chain is a Diamond authorized Mitsubishi reseller, but they have yet to get a display unit. In addition to this, the sales staff that I had chatted with said that they may not even carry the first generation LaserVue.

I've got ISA Firewall training in the last week of October, about a mile away from that reseller and will be checking in somewhat regularly. :)

I would completely expect it to have RBE, as it's nothing other than a different light source. It's still switching colors multiple times per frame to produce a full color image. What doesn't make sense is why it would be worse than other Mits DLPs. Unless the fact that there's more colors in a Mits wheel based system makes it less noticeable. But if that were the case, I would think the LED models would also be known for having worse RBE, but they aren't.

Mitsubishi's latest DLPs seem to have far less RBE than in the past. I'm sure there is a technological reason. Almost to the point where I coild live with it. So no wonder to my huge disapointment in seeing this Laservue. As I said, a killer for me.

I got to see one at Anderson's TV at the Santa Clara, CA, location this weekend. :)

I was not allowed to change any settings and it was playing a continuous loop of Mitsu material (some AD's plus movie trailers).

First Impressions:

Colors - Fantastic !!! All other sets looked washed out in comparison.

Blacks were Inky Black - never seen anything like it. I can see Bill's point - if the set is not calibrated properly - there is a danger of not being able to differentiate black on black (i.e. black trousers or black hair in a dark scene). I'm sure the set was not calibrated - as the person I talked to had no clue what I was talking about.

But oh the colors - they leap off the screen - and are so vivid without running into each other - you cannot take your eyes off it.

My only grouse - Not being able to change the settings or even look at what the current settings were.

I'm hoping there will be a professional review of the set soon...

My Tweeter (Sound Advice here in south Florida) is already taking pre-orders. When they get one at the showroom I will be able to play with settings and change sources, as they always let me do.

That times article. Give me a break He was messing with my head, of course, but it shook me. I decided to call blogger Gary Merson, whose HDGuru.com is the bible of the HDTV industry, and ask him the Passover question: How is the laser HD different from all other HDTVs?

"It displays pitch-black blacks, consumes less power than a similarly sized TV and has the widest color gamut of any display ever made," he said. The reds, he noted, were a case in point. Put the LaserVue alongside Dorfman's lcd, and his reds would look orange. Indeed, the LaserVue comes closer than any TV before it to reproducing the colors one sees in a film in a movie theater. Mitsubishi, which has a lock on the technology so far, is working on a 73-in. (185 cm) LaserVue. Merson said prices (and screen sizes) would doubtless diminish over time.No offense to Mr. Merson, but his reviews have been pretty questionable lately and he doesn't run the "bible" of HDTV website. Wouldn't the wider color gamut make the reds LESS like the movie theater reds. And the blacks aren't 0.0FL on these either.
btw- those pictures of the person lying down on the ground in a red dress is more off than anything I've ever seen

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1700/ssoa5.jpgThat is from a 111 with D-Nice's settings.

Vent-OFF

As I said, Mitsubishi seems to be going for the set with the most POP. That doesn't translate to the best picture but it sure flies with the general public.

coltsfreak18, that picture is still crushing blacks/shadow detail big time. Show me a picture where I can see the womans hair. There is nothing I watch on TV where I can't see strands of a persons hair and the hair always has some raster even in the darkest areas. No one has "Black Hole" colored hair. Except on the Laservue they do. Totally unrealistic looking.

P.S I'm with you, Gary Merson sounds like a Laservue shill. The Laservue can't have better color reproduction than my set or any other set that is spot on for video. What a bunch of marketing distortions.

The woman's skin tone looks better on the LV and for some reason, the whole image appears slightly sharper

As stated, ad naseum, in this thread and others, your Contrast Ration specs mean nothing unless you can tell us how they were arrived at as there is no standardized spec for the size of the window.

Quoting a Contrast Ratio without knowing how it is arrived at is as bad as reviewing the LV and Kuro without properly setting them up - so no one knows why the picture looks the way they do.

You make my point. :) Marketing hype. BTW, ask Mitsubishi, it really doesn't matter to me. I go by what the set looks like, not the numbers.

Mitsubishi 73713 CRT-RPTV. Do you think any new TV would have a contrast ratio rating of 45:1? :D



I suspected you had a CRT RPTV, that’s why I am amazed you don’t see the value in contrast ratio and low black levels. They are the greatest attributes of CRT yet you dismiss there importance.
My last CRT RPTV was capable of absolute black in a totally dark room, on off contrast was therefore infinite. The 65:1 number you say Mitsubishi quoted must be for ANSI contrast. ANSI contrast on CRT systems is not great and in RPTV’s is heavily dependant on lens quality and cleanliness, as well as cabinet treatment and overscan.
My heavily modified 57” Hitachi CRT RPTV had amazingly low black levels as long as there was not much bright content on screen. Space and other dark scenes where far more convincing then any digital display I have seen, and that is why I am so worked up over good black levels, I know what they do for an image.
Having said that, dark scene performance is the only thing I miss about CRT, in every other respect my move to digital has been a vast improvement. Maintaining reasonable shadow detail while at the same time having good blacks was always a challenge with CRT bases sets and I was constantly adjusting the display for every movie. A good digital display is much more consistent and can have unconditionally perfect shadow detail with every level above 16 visible, if only level 16 could be black.
I would gladly trade of a little shadow detail in order to have real black as I have done on all my CRT displays, but digital does not work that way. The only option is bias lighting to help hide the inadequate black level.
Digitals have better ANSI contrast then CRT but the lack of real blacks is a big problem for me and always have been.

I have decided to purchase the LaserVue sometime next summer probably around the 4th of July weekend.

I like the overall design of the cabinet and I like the technology that Mitsubishi has to offer. I will be upgrading from a calibrated 1st Generation 50XBR1 that is only 3 years old, but had to replace the bulb twice and now has a green tint on whatever I watch....I was told by Sorry. er I mean Sony that It will cost nearly 4 grand including parts labor and taxes to replace all panels and light engine block which means that I am ready to dump this thing from my balcony on the 16th floor!!!

Sony's cust svc has been a cruel joke towards me and I am definitely crossing them off my list for future purchases.

I looked at a Kuro 9G and Samsung's 9 Series LCD as possible replacements, and decided to go for the LaserVue instead. I prefer bright, vibrant colors for my viewing, and that is one of my greatest criteria for purchasing a display. I am not so anal retentive as to the black level as I understand that there is no such thing as a "Perfect" set.

Man is an imperfect being, and if he has a hand in developing anything, that too will be imperfect; that's life.

I don't have the deep pockets of a Warren Buffet, but I do know how to budget my money for large ticket items; (Budgeted 3 yrs for the wife's ten year anniversary ring!)

I have followed this forum for many years and witnessed the blatant disrespect that goes on here and it saddens me to see such intelligent individuals resort to such nonsense. I can disagree without being disagreeable.

Many of you purchased the set that you have because that is what you desired to purchase, and I respect your decisions to do so. Please extend that same courtesy to others.

I have decided to purchase the LaserVue sometime next summer probably around the 4th of July weekend.

I like the overall design of the cabinet and I like the technology that Mitsubishi has to offer. I will be upgrading from a calibrated 1st Generation 50XBR1 that is only 3 years old, but had to replace the bulb twice and now has a green tint on whatever I watch....I was told by Sorry. er I mean Sony that It will cost nearly 4 grand including parts labor and taxes to replace all panels and light engine block which means that I am ready to dump this thing from my balcony on the 16th floor!!!

Sony's cust svc has been a cruel joke towards me and I am definitely crossing them off my list for future purchases.

I looked at a Kuro 9G and Samsung's 9 Series LCD as possible replacements, and decided to go for the LaserVue instead. I prefer bright, vibrant colors for my viewing, and that is one of my greatest criteria for purchasing a display. I am not so anal retentive as to the black level as I understand that there is no such thing as a "Perfect" set.

Man is an imperfect being, and if he has a hand in developing anything, that too will be imperfect; that's life.

I don't have the deep pockets of a Warren Buffet, but I do know how to budget my money for large ticket items; (Budgeted 3 yrs for the wife's ten year anniversary ring!)

I have followed this forum for many years and witnessed the blatant disrespect that goes on here and it saddens me to see such intelligent individuals resort to such nonsense. I can disagree without being disagreeable.

Many of you purchased the set that you have because that is what you desired to purchase, and I respect your decisions to do so. Please extend that same courtesy to others.

I'll ignore most of your opinions and just state that you should do more research on getting the Optical Block on the XBR1 replaced free of charge.

fwiw, as i am sure no one will believe it and can just wait for a review from a known source, but the LaserVue colors are close, but not spot on the REC 709. Furthermore, there is an issue with the set where one of the primaries does not have enough range to get it where it needs to be. Whether this can or will be addressed in a firmware update, only time will tell. I would have expected that this set should have been spot on for color from the marketing claims and price - but turned out sort of what I expected. Just goes to prove again that just because something looks different than another set, doesn't always mean its right.

fwiw, as i am sure no one will believe it and can just wait for a review from a known source, but the LaserVue colors are close, but not spot on the REC 709. Furthermore, there is an issue with the set where one of the primaries does not have enough range to get it where it needs to be. Whether this can or will be addressed in a firmware update, only time will tell. I would have expected that this set should have been spot on for color from the marketing claims and price - but turned out sort of what I expected. Just goes to prove again that just because something looks different than another set, doesn't always mean its right.
BeachComber,

I haven't heard that there are issues with one of the primaries not having enough range in anything that I have read about the LaserVue. Your claim is the first I have heard of this and I'm open to researching things as I won't be upgrading my Mits 65907 until late 2009 at the earliest.

Are there any credible sources that have reported the color shortcoming?

I still have yet to see one in person.

Thanks,
Spence

As I said, Mitsubishi seems to be going for the set with the most POP. That doesn't translate to the best picture but it sure flies with the general public.

coltsfreak18, that picture is still crushing blacks/shadow detail big time. Show me a picture where I can see the womans hair. There is nothing I watch on TV where I can't see strands of a persons hair and the hair always has some raster even in the darkest areas. No one has "Black Hole" colored hair. Except on the Laservue they do. Totally unrealistic looking.

P.S I'm with you, Gary Merson sounds like a Laservue shill. The Laservue can't have better color reproduction than my set or any other set that is spot on for video. What a bunch of marketing distortions.I think the crushed hair is in the source or the camera settings. Ask Aliskary (or something like that) or Chadmak09 if theirs are crushed because they both have that disc.

I have decided to purchase the LaserVue sometime next summer probably around the 4th of July weekend.

...I looked at a Kuro 9G and Samsung's 9 Series LCD as possible replacements, and decided to go for the LaserVue instead. I prefer bright, vibrant colors for my viewing, and that is one of my greatest criteria for purchasing a display. I am not so anal retentive as to the black level as I understand that there is no such thing as a "Perfect" set.

July the 4th is a long way off. You may change your mind by then as there may very well be more competition at that time. Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi may very well be releasing 5 lumen plasmas which may very well be brighter than current plasmas, consume less power, and should produce near perfect blacks )(the Pioneers may have perfect blacks). Not to mention that by that time you may see or hear of a 2nd gen laservue by then. Next year should be a great year for display technology.

I like the overall design of the cabinet and I like the technology that Mitsubishi has to offer. I will be upgrading from a calibrated 1st Generation 50XBR1 that is only 3 years old, but had to replace the bulb twice and now has a green tint on whatever I watch....I was told by Sorry. er I mean Sony that It will cost nearly 4 grand including parts labor and taxes to replace all panels and light engine block which means that I am ready to dump this thing from my balcony on the 16th floor!!!

Sony's cust svc has been a cruel joke towards me and I am definitely crossing them off my list for future purchases.


Sony extended the warranty on the XBR1 optical block "OB" until sometime next spring or early summer. "Everyone" is getting this replacement at no cost.

If the "green tint" is consistent across the screen, it can be removed with the white balance controls. If it is in only one or two areas, it is the "blob" and an OB issue.

Call Sony again; or you can call direct to an authorized Sony repair agent in your local area. The OB swap will be free; but if something else is bad, you will be charged for that issue.

July the 4th is a long way off. You may change your mind by then as there may very well be more competition at that time. Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi may very well be releasing 5 lumen plasmas which may very well be brighter than current plasmas, consume less power, and should produce near perfect blacks )(the Pioneers may have perfect blacks). Not to mention that by that time you may see or hear of a 2nd gen laservue by then. Next year should be a great year for display technology.

LV hasn't been out in enough customers hands yet to determine what, if any flaws this 1st generation of sets may have. Good thing kmbutts is waiting until next summer.

LV hasn't been out in enough customers hands yet to determine what, if any flaws this 1st generation of sets may have. Good thing kmbutts is waiting until next summer.

July the 4th is a long way off. You may change your mind by then as there may very well be more competition at that time. Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi may very well be releasing 5 lumen plasmas which may very well be brighter than current plasmas, consume less power, and should produce near perfect blacks )(the Pioneers may have perfect blacks). Not to mention that by that time you may see or hear of a 2nd gen laservue by then. Next year should be a great year for display technology.

That is the exact reason I am waiting. I want to hear from ACTUAL OWNERS of this set and their REAL EXPERIENCES and not HYPOTHETICAL scenarios regarding this tv.

I never buy anything right out of the gate and will usually wait 6 or more months afterwards to allow for the prices to adjust and to see what issues, if any occur.

As for reviews, my take on the matter is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I purchase items based on what I like, not based on what others say I should. I can listen objectively and respectfully to what they have to say be it positive or negative, then make my own decision. After all, I am the one that has to live with my choice.

Because of my IT background, I don't mind being an early adopter for some things, but I refuse to purchase anything sight unseen or upon immediate release.

I have a couple of friends that bought the new Mercedes S-550 because it was the new status symbol for them, and they only drive MB vehicles.

Both of their cars had to be replaced under Georgia's Lemon law in less than a month of purchasing their respective cars! One vehicle just shut down in the middle of traffic on 285 (For those of you not familiar with Atlanta, 285 circles the majority of Metro Atlanta and is 66 miles long.) And the other just refused to start at his home 3 days after taking delivery of the car!!!

As I said in an earlier post; if it's man made, it ain't perfect! It could be that the LaserVue could end up being one of the best new tv's on the block, or one of the biggest bombs in history; only time will tell.

If the tv works well for me, that's what matters most; if it doesn't, that is what returns are for.

It is worth noting, kmbutts, that the laser tech has one more advantage. In addition to energy efficiency. It is cheaper to manufacture than LCD or Plasma. With enough popularity (economies of scale), the price should drop precipitously.

coltsfreak18, that picture is still crushing blacks/shadow detail big time. Show me a picture where I can see the womans hair. There is nothing I watch on TV where I can't see strands of a persons hair and the hair always has some raster even in the darkest areas. No one has "Black Hole" colored hair. Except on the Laservue they do. Totally unrealistic looking.

You have no idea for sure that that pic is crushing blacks. That could be an exact representation of the picture from the source. You don't know that for sure. Given the fact that picture is supposed to be representative of the Kuro's black levels, I would expect it to have a ton of black. Plus you can see the woman's hair. It's brown and it appears as if it's combed back tight on her head. Also, don't forget that she is under water swimming. She's not laying down on anything. Notice the bubbles coming from her nose and drifting up from there in the pic.

Any "opinions" about this pic without having the actual original to compare it to is just that. An "opinion".

I suspect part of the reason for the high price of the LV is small production volume. It feels like Mits struggled a bit to make good on their promise to get a Laser set to market by the 3rd qtr. If manufacturing can't produce enough of a new tech why not milk it until production ramps up?

You have no idea for sure that that pic is crushing blacks. That could be an exact representation of the picture from the source. You don't know that for sure. Given the fact that picture is supposed to be representative of the Kuro's black levels, I would expect it to have a ton of black. Plus you can see the woman's hair. It's brown and it appears as if it's combed back tight on her head. Also, don't forget that she is under water swimming. She's not laying down on anything. Notice the bubbles coming from her nose and drifting up from there in the pic.

Any "opinions" about this pic without having the actual original to compare it to is just that. An "opinion".

and dont forget that people are probably viewing the picture on some crappy LCD monitor in their laptops or home PCs.

I put the picture on Photoshop and there is no hair to be seen at all. The hair is probably behind her head. The picture is faithful to the original, no black crush. When black crush is present you can always see it with PS. If the blacks have been crushed on the source, however, there is nothing a display can do. Something that must be considered as well is the fact that some BD players, specially the most popular ones, don't pass the black crush tests.

For me this picture means absolutely nothing, positively or negatively about the LV.

Did RippieMcFart come out from kmbutts?



I just had to

I suspected you had a CRT RPTV, that’s why I am amazed you don’t see the value in contrast ratio and low black levels. They are the greatest attributes of CRT yet you dismiss there importance.
My last CRT RPTV was capable of absolute black in a totally dark room, on off contrast was therefore infinite. The 65:1 number you say Mitsubishi quoted must be for ANSI contrast. ANSI contrast on CRT systems is not great and in RPTV’s is heavily dependant on lens quality and cleanliness, as well as cabinet treatment and overscan.
My heavily modified 57” Hitachi CRT RPTV had amazingly low black levels as long as there was not much bright content on screen. Space and other dark scenes where far more convincing then any digital display I have seen, and that is why I am so worked up over good black levels, I know what they do for an image.
Having said that, dark scene performance is the only thing I miss about CRT, in every other respect my move to digital has been a vast improvement. Maintaining reasonable shadow detail while at the same time having good blacks was always a challenge with CRT bases sets and I was constantly adjusting the display for every movie. A good digital display is much more consistent and can have unconditionally perfect shadow detail with every level above 16 visible, if only level 16 could be black.
I would gladly trade of a little shadow detail in order to have real black as I have done on all my CRT displays, but digital does not work that way. The only option is bias lighting to help hide the inadequate black level.
Digitals have better ANSI contrast then CRT but the lack of real blacks is a big problem for me and always have been.

Shadow detail is king AFAIC. If you can't see it all, you aren't seeing all the picture. It would be like listenung to music and throwing out the low frequencies. The fact that CRT is better in other ways is frosting on the cake. :) You're giving black such high priority is like giving 20hz highest priority in music. I rarely touch my brightness control, only contrast depending on the brightness of the program and the room. It is funny how you say black levels fell off on your CRT with bright areas. This should result in the blacks looking even blacker by how the eye works. It does for me. Unless one is watching "Skycaptain and the World of Tommorrow" or such, if there is bright areas on the screen, virtually any set will have acceptable blacks because of how the eye works but is there detail in those dark areas? Shadow detail is what makes a picture look realistic, not blacks or contrast ratio which is simply pleasing to the eye like sugar to the tongue. I imagine the first thing you'd do is turn down the brightness on my set, much to my dismay. Turn up the brightness was the first thing I asked them to do on the Laservue, much to their dismay.

P.S. Ansi contrast is a joke, says nothing about blacks or shadow detail. How about projecting a searchlight with black squares blocked out, boy what ansi.

Did RippieMcFart come out from kmbutts?



I just had to

I used to get that all the time in school until I got to college and hit my growth spurt.....at 6'7 300 pounds all of the wisecracks seemed to stop. I wonder why!!

Well, seeing how I can't "see" you...it's still kinda funny in a juvenile sort of way!

Well, seeing how I can't "see" you...it's still kinda funny in a juvenile sort of way!

My wife went through that on her job until I came to the company picnic....she hasn't heard it since. I guess size really does matter!!! ;)

Sony extended the warranty on the XBR1 optical block "OB" until sometime next spring or early summer. "Everyone" is getting this replacement at no cost.

If the "green tint" is consistent across the screen, it can be removed with the white balance controls. If it is in only one or two areas, it is the "blob" and an OB issue.

Call Sony again; or you can call direct to an authorized Sony repair agent in your local area. The OB swap will be free; but if something else is bad, you will be charged for that issue.

Can someone supply a link for this? Thanks!!

Can someone supply a link for this? Thanks!!

What's your model number?

Mine's kdf-60xs955 and I have the page up for it at sony. If I can get a model number, then I might be able to get a link for you.

Seggers

OK, not sure if this'll post once, twice of zillions of times. My internet connection is playing games.

Foreshadow of things to come with the Laservue?

Foreshadow of things to come with the Laservue?

? ...or did I miss something again. ;)

Can someone supply a link for this? Thanks!!

The Sony site concerning the XBR1 SXRD settlement can be found here (http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?news_id=219&mdl=KDSR60XBR1).

An AVS forum thread on the XBR1 SXRD settlement can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14649354).

There is an XBR1 owners' thread and I believe an XBR1 settings & tweaks thread on the forum too, if that's what you're asking for.

HTH

Sorry for the off-topic post.

? ...or did I miss something again. ;)

Like the sxrd, bugs in a new technology possibly. I'm not trying to kill the Laaserview, my set isn't going to last forever and I'll have to replace it with something. It just doesn't look like it to me so far.

Did RippieMcFart come out from kmbutts?



I just had to

That one was a bit too easy but I accept that it was irresistible. I can't wait to let loose in front of a reasonably priced LV or a low energy plasma. If anyone wants to come over to see it first hand just don't lite a match.

I'll ignore most of your opinions and just state that you should do more research on getting the Optical Block on the XBR1 replaced free of charge.

What's your model number?

Mine's kdf-60xs955 and I have the page up for it at sony. If I can get a model number, then I might be able to get a link for you.

Seggers

OK, not sure if this'll post once, twice of zillions of times. My internet connection is playing games.

Went to Sony's service site and called the number listed in the class action suit and Sony is sending out a service repair person to fix the set next Monday. I just don't get why their cust svc dept was so rude when I was trying to get the problem fixed earlier...sour grapes I guess..


At least I will be ok with the xbr1 until this summer. Thanks to you too Seggers for responding to my request as well.

The Sony site concerning the XBR1 SXRD settlement can be found here (http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?news_id=219&mdl=KDSR60XBR1).

An AVS forum thread on the XBR1 SXRD settlement can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14649354).

There is an XBR1 owners' thread and I believe an XBR1 settings & tweaks thread on the forum too, if that's what you're asking for.

HTH

Sorry for the off-topic post.


I have all the information and have scheduled an appointment for in home repair

I got to see one at Anderson's TV at the Santa Clara, CA, location this weekend. :)

I was not allowed to change any settings and it was playing a continuous loop of Mitsu material (some AD's plus movie trailers).

First Impressions:

Colors - Fantastic !!! All other sets looked washed out in comparison.

Blacks were Inky Black - never seen anything like it. I can see Bill's point - if the set is not calibrated properly - there is a danger of not being able to differentiate black on black (i.e. black trousers or black hair in a dark scene). I'm sure the set was not calibrated - as the person I talked to had no clue what I was talking about.

But oh the colors - they leap off the screen - and are so vivid without running into each other - you cannot take your eyes off it.

My only grouse - Not being able to change the settings or even look at what the current settings were.

I'm hoping there will be a professional review of the set soon...

that's awesome to here, i'm even more excited....well, that's if Mitsu releases a smaller size at around 50" and lowers the price.
And i knew the colors and blacks would be fantastic, besides that how did handle motion? i'm guessing better than any Plasma or LCD

that's awesome to here, i'm even more excited....well, that's if Mitsu releases a smaller size at around 50" and lowers the price.


As was pointed out previously, there will not be a 50".

Well, after looking at the specs on the 65, one of my main concerns have been put to rest.

The cabinet is only 58 inches wide; my 50XBR1 with the "Dumbo Ears" is just a shade over 57 inches wide and my current stand is over 59 inches. I won't have to buy a new stand which is great!

I can now take the cash that was budgeted for the stand and buy two matching audio towers and have extra cash left in the budget to buy both Pioneer's Elite BDP-09FD Blu-Ray player and either the Elite SC-07 or Denon AVR-4308CI a/v receiver!

Now if I can only decide on the freaking surround speakers and sub:(

As was pointed out previously, there will not be a 50".

Has Mitsubishi stated that they wont be making anything under 65"?...

Companies usually don't state the things they won't be doing.

They also haven't stated they won't make these with cheetah print casings or laser based cell phones, but I wouldn't wait for those either.

Has Mitsubishi stated that they wont be making anything under 65"?...

According to their press release, they only mention the 65 and 73...I would gather that the success of these models combined with the interest for a smaller one will determine whether or not they create a smaller one.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that Mitsubishi targets the 60 and under market. They seem to be geared towards 60 and larger from what I have seen over the past 3 or so years.

I went to 'test-view' the 65" LV at my local Urner's Appliances here in Bakersfield, CA (central valley). The local HD 1080i feed that was playing left much to be desired. I was not that impressed for a $7K screen!!! The 1080p feed from the blu-ray, on the other hand was on par with thier 52" Diamond LCD. I still dont think this set has lived up to all its hype:cool:

Are there any credible sources that have reported the color shortcoming?



Yes - me. Again, I said they were close - but one the range on one of the primary colors (hint - its a biggie) that Mitsubishi gives you does not allow you to correct it. Doesn't matter what I say or who the other sources are, people here will dispute it until they are green in the face. Eventually all things will be confirmed and I will point back to these posts and laugh at those who were in denial.....


Went to Sony's service site and called the number listed in the class action suit and Sony is sending out a service repair person to fix the set next Monday. I just don't get why their cust svc dept was so rude when I was trying to get the problem fixed earlier...sour grapes I guess..


At least I will be ok with the xbr1 until this summer. Thanks to you too Seggers for responding to my request as well.

Sounds like the so called as*h*le of the forum (me) saved you $4k.

Shadow detail is king AFAIC. If you can't see it all, you aren't seeing all the picture. It would be like listenung to music and throwing out the low frequencies. The fact that CRT is better in other ways is frosting on the cake. :) You're giving black such high priority is like giving 20hz highest priority in music. I rarely touch my brightness control, only contrast depending on the brightness of the program and the room.

If shadow detail is king you had better run out and buy a digital TV to replace that CRT RPTV because even a cheap LCD has no problem displaying every level above black perfectly. If you adjust most CRT’s to give the same shadow detail you get elevated black levels no better and often worse then a good digital set.


It is funny how you say black levels fell off on your CRT with bright areas. This should result in the blacks looking even blacker by how the eye works.

RPTV’s and projectors suffer from light refraction in the projection optics which causes pollution of blacks when bright content is on screen. RPTV’s also have the added complication of internal reflections from poorly blacked out cabinet interiors and over scanned images projected onto the inside of the screen bezel. Even the screen its self reflects light back into the cabinet which reflects of internals surfaces and back onto the screen further polluting blacks.
CRT tubes in both direct view and projection systems also suffer from electron beam scatter and light refraction in the thick glass front surface, compounding the problem still further.
None of the above issues affect a full black screen, which can be totally black on CRT as the guns can be switched off completely to give zero light output. However with a visible image on screen the above effects come into play, the brighter the image the more the blacks are polluted.

CRT based displays can suffer from black crush when bright content is on screen due to poor power supply regulation, the greater the average picture level or peak output level the more shadow detail is lost. Good quality CRT display should not suffer from this and my Hitachi RPTV did not

Digital projectors and RPTV’s are also affected in a similar ways but since there is only a small single lens of usually good quality in stead of three large ones, often of dubious quality in CRT RPTVs, the problem is less significant. This is why digital RPTV’s can have significantly better ANSI contrast then CRT RPTV’s.
For dark - night - space scenes where average picture levels and refractions - reflections are less of an issue CRT rains supreme. It’s performance in dark-night-space scenes that I find so inferior in digital displays, and it’s an area of performance of very high importance to me. In all other areas CRT has been eclipsed.




It does for me. Unless one is watching "Skycaptain and the World of Tommorrow" or such, if there is bright areas on the screen, virtually any set will have acceptable blacks because of how the eye works but is there detail in those dark areas?

The iris in your eyes will close down in response to high average light levels making blacks look much darker, but this dose not apply for low average picture level scenes like the dark-night-space scenes I am discussing.
I front projection system with a white or silver grey screen in a room that is not totally dark will have good black as long as average picture levels are high, for low average picture level scenes the white-silver screen limits the black level to what it would be if the projector was turned off, and that’s not black unless the room is totally dark.


Shadow detail is what makes a picture look realistic, not blacks or contrast ratio which is simply pleasing to the eye like sugar to the tongue. I imagine the first thing you'd do is turn down the brightness on my set, much to my dismay. Turn up the brightness was the first thing I asked them to do on the Laservue, much to their dismay.

Sorry I can’t agree, good shadow detail without good blacks is a total loss, just look at an LCD in a dark room. A CRT with excellent blacks and inferior shadow detail looks much more realistic and believable to me.
If you want more shadow detail simply adjust gamma and you can have as much as you want without affecting black level.


P.S. Ansi contrast is a joke, says nothing about blacks or shadow detail. How about projecting a searchlight with black squares blocked out, boy what ansi.

ANSI contrast is not as important as overall contrast and blacks, but if it’s poor images will loose punch and look flat, visible detail will be reduced.

That review seems completely subjective; there are no tests for color points, grey scale or gamma. There was not even a known good reference monitor on hand, what a waste of time.

Owen, what are you trying to fight against? There are two shortcomings of
the Kuro compared to the LaserVue that are apparent in the comparison pics
and both of them are nothing that could be corrected by calibration. One is
sharpness the other is shadow detail. The loss of shadow detail of the Kuro
is not because it was set up to dark as can be seen by the brightness of the
mountains in the back. The pics taken are from identical camera settings so
the difference images is nothing that could be accounted to the way the photos were taken.
Based on the pics I would take the LaserVue over the Kuro anytime.

The benefit of more sharpness can be seen in about 95% of the scenes
The benefit of more Shadow detail can be seen maybe in about 60%
The number of cenes that bring out the better black level of the Kuro over
the LaserVue are so few that many would not even notice it side by side let
alone when separately viewed.
The relevance of sharpness compared to contrast and black level when it
comes to image depth is clearly seen when the InFocus PlayBig IN83 is
viewed side by side against a JVC RS2 in a store. The image of the JVC does
not look any deeper than the InFocus although the contrast ratio and the
black level of the JVC is several times better than that of the IN83.


Greets,
Klaus

I have spent enough time photographing displays with a range of cameras under ideal controlled conditions to know photos are of no value what so ever in evaluating a display.
The idea that one display can be judged to have “better” shadow detail then another based on a photo without any idea of how much shadow detail should be visible on that scene displayed with 2.5 gamma is quite ridiculous. More shadow detail is NOT necessarily better; it depends on what “should” be visible. The same goes for color, more is NOT better if it’s inaccurate.
Sharpness is dependant on visible contrast, which is related to how bright the image is. LCD’s look sharp because they are bright, but that does not make them better, far from it.
Sharpness is also dependant on internal image processing and is usually adjustable, to much is not desirable.
The camera will have such a large influence on the above that comparison is pointless.

The real questions are:
Can the display be calibrated for accurate color to the REC709 standard?
Can the display be calibrated for a linear grey scale at 65k
Can the display be calibrated for correct gamma?
What is the black level?
What is the contrast ratio, both ANSI and on/off?

Then we move on to visual examination for defects such as SSE, dither-PWM noise or any other anomaly.

I've come to the conclusion that you have never been happy about anything...ever.

Link to a post from a person who just saw the unit, on display at a local HDTV store.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=1077667

Owen, where are you getting that CRT doesn't have the best shadow detail. To my eyes and everything I've read, it does. BTW, they also have the best contrast (#1 on the list of pleasing to the eye), not withstanding my 45:1:D. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Since what you and I look for in a set is different, maybe you'll like the Laservue.

I've come to the conclusion that you have never been happy about anything...ever.

I have been quite happy with my last two big screen TV,s, but only after I disassembled and modified them to provide the best performance the technology was capable of, even if it meant invalidating the warranty.
I use a PC as my only video source so that I can apply custom RGB gamma curves to optimise grey scale tracking and overall gamma in ways not possible with the displays service menu adjustments.

I know what as important to my viewing enjoyment and black level is top of the list. I therefore will not buy another display that is deficient in that area in future.
Next on my hate list is display generated noise, DLP and Plasma have both been prone to this problem in the past. Hopefully the next generation of Panasonic-Pioneer Plasmas with have perfect blacks and no noise.

Owen, where are you getting that CRT doesn't have the best shadow detail. To my eyes and everything I've read, it does. BTW, they also have the best contrast (#1 on the list of pleasing to the eye), not withstanding my 45:1:D. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Since what you and I look for in a set is different, maybe you'll like the Laservue.

I have owned two CRT RPTV’s, several direct view CRT TV’s (still have a 34” HD Toshiba) and many CRT PC monitors, including high end Pro models. None had an advantage in shadow detail over my digital displays (LCD and SXRD). In fact the CRT’s have trouble maintaining shadow detail when set up to provide true blacks, a compromise setting trades off black level for shadow detail. The digital displays don’t have that issue; shadow detail is purely dictated by gamma.
Most displays have little if any adjustment for gamma, but a good external video processor or PC can provide very advanced control allowing you to have whatever shadow detail you want on any display type.
CRT is notionally supposed to have a native gamma of 2.5, which is the standard for video, this seems to be arbitrary as very few CRT’s conform. 2.5 provides a very dark picture with little visible shadow detail unless the viewing environment I quite dark, so if you like shadow detail you wont be happy with 2.5 even though it is accurate.
For viewing with lights on, 2.2 is probably more appropriate as it will lift shadow detail to a more visible level.
My 70” SXRD had a gamma of around 1.8, which provided way too much shadow detail, giving the image a washed out look. Reducing gamma to 2.2-2.5 made a huge difference to image depth and apparent clarity, and shadow detail is reduced to where it should be. Every level above black is clearly visible however, which is difficult for CRT without compromising black level. If only the modified SXRD could provide true black I would be happy, as it stands I am getting a black level a little lower then a G8 Kuro, but that’s not even close to dark enough as far as I am concerned.

The notion of assigning a single value to luma response (gamma, as used here) is faulty. The response curve can be complex, depending on the display and a single number does not necessarily reflect what is going on at the bottom, middle, nor the top of the response. Displays var so greatly in the response from one end to another, and are affected by so many variables, that the only way to discuss these matters with any clarity is to look at relative response curves.

anyone buy a laservue yet?

The notion of assigning a single value to luma response (gamma, as used here) is faulty. The response curve can be complex, depending on the display and a single number does not necessarily reflect what is going on at the bottom, middle, nor the top of the response. Displays var so greatly in the response from one end to another, and are affected by so many variables, that the only way to discuss these matters with any clarity is to look at relative response curves.

Agreed, but that would have complicated the discussion unnecessarily in my view.
The main point is that CRT does not inherently have an advantage in shadow detail and video has standards to define the correct level of shadow detail, more is not better.
Making judgments about shadow detail on a display based on a photograph is absurd, especially when you don’t have the same video on hand to evaluate on a reference display.

I agree, but using arguments that are bsed upon assumptions about the meaning of this or that single digit gamma average is equally pointless. Ambiguity in support of a point is not convincing.

I agree, but using arguments that are bsed upon assumptions about the meaning of this or that single digit gamma average is equally pointless. Ambiguity in support of a point is not convincing.

How would you suggest I explain the situation without going into pages of detail?

Shadow detail is in the source, the display can either show it or it can't. You can't add detail that isn't there no matter how one adjusts ones set. If you can bring out more detail, it is because it was there in the first place. Btw, my set has all the shadow detail that is there (like every set should or why bother to put it in the source) and is not washed out. This is obviously a matter of taste.

The various bits of discussion about color/theory is interesting, as well black level and shadow detail.
Personally I'd rather have better black over a little better shadow detail, definitely my preference. I fail to see the benefit of having shadow detail in a display when black level still isn't actually black. Perhaps gray is the new black, who knows. ;}
Suppose I'm a tad crazy.

Another thing those pics of the kuro vs the LV seem really strange, I've never seen a somewhat properly setup pioneer look so off, especially with the blueish skin tones, what is up with that? Or is it just me and never realized kuros were blue or is it magenta? ;}~

Best Regards
KvE

You know, when I talk about shadow detail, I'm not just talking about shades of black. I'm talking every color. That cabinet in the background shadows that has just a hint of brown detail. That tree in the shadows that has just a hint of green detail to be able to make out individual leaves, etc. Almost every picture I've seen posted crushed the subtle shadow background color details. Black generally makes up a very small portion of the overall picture.

Shadow detail is in the source, the display can either show it or it can't. You can't add detail that isn't there no matter how one adjusts ones set. If you can bring out more detail, it is because it was there in the first place. Btw, my set has all the shadow detail that is there and is not washed out. This is obviously a matter of taste.


Video is encoded with a non linear transfer function; the mid tones are pushed up imparting a curve to the response. The display is supposed to have a transfer function the exact opposite or inverse of the video so that the image on screen has a linear response from black to white.
The lower left corner of the diagram is black and the upper right is white.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8206/gamma06600aja6.jpg

Most displays do not have an accurate inverse response and the visual output will be non linear resulting in shadows mid tones appearing brighter or darker then they should.

Black crush is a different issue, it involves the cutting off or clipping of valid video data above digital level 16.

Ok, I think understand better what some folks are referring to now about shadow detail. Thanks Bill.

KvE

PS In my experience and preference I still find LCDs just are not there yet. Try to get good black level out of them without crushing black and shadow detail still seems beyond the tech. today. I did see a samsung a950 and it looked very nice for an LCD but it still failed proper balance, especially in darker scenes. Watched some of the Prestige and it did actually hold up pretty well, however the cave scenes in Iron Man were very disappointing. Rather than black it was fluctuating murky gray, not pretty.

I am very interested in folks impressions once they get them home and watch the LV in an evening setting, rather than untweaked settings in a showroom.

Almost every picture I've seen posted crushed the subtle shadow background color details.

That’s because cameras can’t capture the dynamic range of the image on a TV and crush blacks when correctly exposed for the highlights.
They also impart there own gamma characteristics to the image which alters shadow detail significantly, that’s why I say photos are not useful.


Black generally makes up a very small portion of the overall picture.

There is plenty of content where black makes up the majority of the image and when blacks are not black in those scenes the realism of the image is destroyed. You will always know you are viewing a screen not the real thing.

I wouldn't post a picture that wasn't close to the image I was viewing. I think most people are into blacks, like you and that is what their set looks like. That chart is beyond me. Like I said, I use my eyes. As far as what seems realistic, that is in the eyes of the beholder.

Try to get good black level out of them without crushing black and shadow detail still seems beyond the tech. today.

Even a cheap LCD PC monitor has no problem displaying ever level above black, what LCD cannot do is display black.
By attempting to adjust an LCD or any digital display to get real black all you will do is crush black, by that I mean cut off real video data above video black, the black level of the display will not get lower as it is set by the black floor of the display, whatever that happens to be based on the particular display or technology.

Owen, again we have to agree to disagree.

Owen, again we have to agree to disagree.

What’s to disagree about? Are you saying that an LCD or any other digital display type cannot reproduce every level above black?

Shadow detail is all about gamma, plain and simple. Some displays just have different gamma characteristics to others, some are adjustable and some are not.

These images all have the same black level and the same white level, even 75% of the gamma curve is identical. Only the lower 25% of the gamma curve has been altered.
There is no black crush, all video data is there, its just at different relative levels.
If someone what’s to suggest that gamma is not what governs shadow detail, go right ahead.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4708/6lowvo7.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2902/6aqi3.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7808/6highwm7.jpg


This shows (very roughly) how the response has been altered, its actually a lot more subtle then this diagram suggests.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4264/gamma06600bzi1.jpg

How would you suggest I explain the situation without going into pages of detail?

Show a graph of the rec 709 transfer function.

Show a graph of actual display response for a real display.

Discuss how THAT particular display can or cannot be adjusted to achieve the response that you would like it to provide.



A single number tells one nothing about the response of a display that is useful. Different displays have very different capacities for adjusting the relative response at different levels of input.

Out of curiosity Bill, what is the average gamma for your TV? Do you have a calibration report of some kind from the person that calibrated your TV?

Show a graph of the rec 709 transfer function.

Show a graph of actual display response for a real display.

Discuss how THAT particular display can or cannot be adjusted to achieve the response that you would like it to provide.



A single number tells one nothing about the response of a display that is useful. Different displays have very different capacities for adjusting the relative response at different levels of input.

If you think that sort of detail is required then by all means provide it. I’m sure you have lots of display responses at your disposal and the reasons why the displays under test could or could not be adjusted to conform to the standards.

Please be more constructive. ;)

When I get a meter on the LaserVue and get a chance to calibrate one I will post the results here.

How about this- http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/shmontrast.htm and no, I don't know what the gamma is.

The real questions are:
Can the display be calibrated for accurate color to the REC709 standard?
Can the display be calibrated for a linear grey scale at 65k
Can the display be calibrated for correct gamma?
What is the black level?
What is the contrast ratio, both ANSI and on/off?

Then we move on to visual examination for defects such as SSE, dither-PWM noise or any other anomaly.

The answer to the top question, if you want spot on for all the primaries, no - at least not with its current firmware. Whether that will be updated remains to be seen.

However in fairness, I should point out that it is much closer to the correct REC709 Gamut than the SXRD we both use now.

As they both were introduced in the same price area, is that unfair given that the SXRD cannot hit the primaries properly either? Possibly, but given its 2 more years down the line as well as the PR hype about more color and color accuracy with lasers, I was expecting that one could atleast hit all the Primary and Secondary Points correctly, which is not the case here.

How about this- http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/shmontrast.htm and no, I don't know what the gamma is.

Maybe now would be a good time to learn.
Grey scale and gamma are linked, if gamma is off the steps in the grey scale will have the wrong value relative to one another.

The answer to the top question, if you want spot on for all the primaries, no - at least not with its current firmware. Whether that will be updated remains to be seen.

However in fairness, I should point out that it is much closer to the correct REC709 Gamut than the SXRD we both use now.

As they both were introduced in the same price area, is that unfair given that the SXRD cannot hit the primaries properly either? Possibly, but given its 2 more years down the line as well as the PR hype about more color and color accuracy with lasers, I was expecting that one could atleast hit all the Primary and Secondary Points correctly, which is not the case here.

The early SXRD’s did have slightly exaggerated red and green primaries apparently a deliberate move on the part of Sony and other manufactures at the time to give richer colors that customers would be attracted too. Sony changed their approach with the later models like the A3000 RPTV which had almost perfect primaries out of the box, no calibration required.
Some of Sonys current LCD’s are also very accurate out of the box, so it can be done if they want to.

Here is a full range (0-255) grey scale chart, can you see the change between every level on your PC monitor, even if its an LCD? I can.
If your display is calibrated for video you should not be able to as video only uses the range 16-235.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/108/greyscalechartfp0.jpg

OK Guys - I pop in here every few days to seek reviews on this and it's become quite entertaining this ping pong AV Mensa battle going on black, details, gamma and measurements and somewhat educational and I mean this in a good way - I usually see this over in the VP threads where the left brain OCD members seem to play.

After nearly four years and simply going by my damn eye's and PQ preference perhaps someone can answer a few things since we have massive AV wisdom herein to take advantage of.

Point:

I owned gen1 SXRD 60" for one week the wife would tolerate it's fat ass form factor and then she made me sell it. The first few days I owned that sucker I was somewhat disappointed and the SD was blurry and gave me headaches.

What changed was when we sat down to watch an HD movie one night on cable called Van Helsing which I'd seen many times with very little impact. This is a movie filled with darkness and special effects and some eye popping colors also. From the opening sequences and even the black and white scenes the shadow details were simply friggin amazing and during the entire movie the damn thing had us involuntarily going WoW and Whoa throughout and even some scenes when the Vampire is walking on the walls the shadow details were so friggin defined that it made you giggle and say WTF to yourself - this happened to both of us.

My wife hated this TV for it's form factor but was amazed during it's HD movie presentation but her OCD nature still said it had to go and I replaced it with a Panny Plasma and a week later we're viewing the exact same HD source and ZERO impact of shadow detail and I felt like I was back viewing my Sony CRT Tube with great color and blacks but NO HT WOW's whatsoever and for many other reasons I discovered I'm not a plasma fan - not even a KURO - my sunny room destroys plasma. IMO BLACKS may be a destination but if a panel fails to define the gradients you have no wow factor.

Point is - despite measurements and touted two million to one CR of some panels I've yet to see any panel replicate those friggin shadow details of that SXRD and the WoW Factor though I came close to it when viewing a Sony Z4100 LCD displaying Pixar shorts this past week as far as 3D effect was amazing - as if you could reach your hand into the panel and grab the characters.

My point is that I believe SXRD tested out at about 13K:1 CR yet to my eyes it's shadow details blew away any plasma or LCD I've ever seen. To me what the SXRD did right with shadow details despite measurements haunts me and is my Holy Grail. If what some post here in measurements assert there is little difference how is it that to my eyes and some other SXRD owners we cannot find a plasma or LCD to match what it did best - "Shadow Details" Blacks and the steps of gray. Understanding SXRD had it's bad points for sure.

Also, my Sharp 57" has outstanding flesh tones and it has two different blacks - displayed blacks are perfect but VOID blacks are of course that haze gray. For those in the know why do I have two different blacks? For my eyes it's my best compromise and I still get plenty of Wow but without those fantastic shadow details of the SXRD - how could one display have such an advantage and then be killed?:D

If the Laser can replicate it - I'll buy one for sure.:)

OK Guys - I pop in here every few days to seek reviews on this and it's become quite entertaining this ping pong AV Mensa battle going on black, details, gamma and measurements and somewhat educational and I mean this in a good way - I usually see this over in the VP threads where the left brain OCD members seem to play.

After nearly four years and simply going by my damn eye's and PQ preference perhaps someone can answer a few things since we have massive AV wisdom herein to take advantage of.

Point:

I owned gen1 SXRD 60" for one week the wife would tolerate it's fat ass form factor and then she made me sell it. The first few days I owned that sucker I was somewhat disappointed and the SD was blurry and gave me headaches.

What changed was when we sat down to watch an HD movie one night on cable called Van Helsing which I'd seen many times with very little impact. This is a movie filled with darkness and special effects and some eye popping colors also. From the opening sequences and even the black and white scenes the shadow details were simply friggin amazing and during the entire movie the damn thing had us involuntarily going WoW and Whoa throughout and even some scenes when the Vampire is walking on the walls the shadow details were so friggin defined that it made you giggle and say WTF to yourself - this happened to both of us.

My wife hated this TV for it's form factor but was amazed during it's HD movie presentation but her OCD nature still said it had to go and I replaced it with a Panny Plasma and a week later we're viewing the exact same HD source and ZERO impact of shadow detail and I felt like I was back viewing my Sony CRT Tube with great color and blacks but NO HT WOW's whatsoever and for many other reasons I discovered I'm not a plasma fan - not even a KURO - my sunny room destroys plasma. IMO BLACKS may be a destination but if a panel fails to define the gradients you have no wow factor.

Point is - despite measurements and touted two million to one CR of some panels I've yet to see any panel replicate those friggin shadow details of that SXRD and the WoW Factor though I came close to it when viewing a Sony Z4100 LCD displaying Pixar shorts this past week as far as 3D effect was amazing - as if you could reach your hand into the panel and grab the characters.

My point is that I believe SXRD tested out at about 13K:1 CR yet to my eyes it's shadow details blew away any plasma or LCD I've ever seen. To me what the SXRD did right with shadow details despite measurements haunts me and is my Holy Grail. If what some post here in measurements assert there is little difference how is it that to my eyes and some other SXRD owners we cannot find a plasma or LCD to match what it did best - "Shadow Details" Blacks and the steps of gray. Understanding SXRD had it's bad points for sure.

Also, my Sharp 57" has outstanding flesh tones and it has two different blacks - displayed blacks are perfect but VOID blacks are of course that haze gray. For those in the know why do I have two different blacks? For my eyes it's my best compromise and I still get plenty of Wow but without those fantastic shadow details of the SXRD - how could one display have such an advantage and then be killed?:D

If the Laser can replicate it - I'll buy one for sure.:)

I've heard this story from you westa many times, however not as detailed as you have described it this time and now I understand your viewpoint more.

This talk about gamma is interesting. I loved the improved black levels of my 6010(8G Kuro) but felt the picture was dimmer than I cared for and lacked shadow detail. Now that I have a 6020 (9G Kuro), I've been enjoying added details and a brighter image.

I'm no calibrator but how a display is configured from the factory obviously has a huge impact on how much shadow detail is displayed as User Menu controls only go so far. I can take a PS3 game such as NBA 2K9 and set my 9G Kuro in movie mode (which displays the most details but is "less punchier" than other picture modes) but for a video game the pic just isn't as bright and is darker than I care for in darker areas of the screen. However, I can play the PC version of this on my HTPC and make a few adjustments on my ATI card for contrast and gamma and the picture comes alive. I can't get these types of results on my PS3 due to the User controls. The 6010 Kuro wasn't as limited as the 6020 was as far as user controls go but the results were the same.

[QUOTE=westa6969;14923802]OK Guys - To me what the SXRD did right with shadow details despite measurements haunts me and is my Holy Grail....

The calibration talk is interesting but I am intrigued by this post. :rolleyes:The best assessment of a TV might just possibly be the most subjective one. ;) I have been clenching my buttocks in anticipation of the LV for some time and I have committed to not give up my 32" Sony XBR CRT until I have at least seen the LV. I have made a conscious effort to suppress expectations one way or the other to get an honest LV first impression onto my retina. I am looking for the same, subconscious, wow factor. The sales numbers will be the ultimate judg-e-ment of whether or not the set is right all around.:cool:

HD Guru reviews the laservue:
http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Pretty much a rave. The photos indicate a hotspot issue for me, but he likes the set a lot.

Owen, you missed my point. According to the article, CRT has the best gray scale which directly relates to shadow detail and black is not the most important feature. The gamma setting I don't know about is my set's. Those charts have nowhere near 256 gradiants. They look like four of the same charts on my LCD. Also CRT has the best contrast (while still maintaining the best shadow detail) which is the most pleasing thing to the eye. When the Laservue can do this, then we're talking.

...Pretty much a rave. ...

Boy I'll say. You don't see this quote often: "The HD Guru awards the Mitsubishi L65A90 its highest ♥♥♥♥ rating"

HD Guru reviews the laservue:
http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Pretty much a rave. The photos indicate a hotspot issue for me, but he likes the set a lot.Why does Mr. Merson like DCI color ALWAYS. Every single review of his since the PZ850U review he has stated that he prefers the DCI, when there isn't even a source in that. He doesn't give us the gamma, any grayscale charts, or the measured black levels. Honestly, as much as I care about subjective "color" opinion, I would much rather have more numbers and less talk about them. What about the grayscale dEs, the luminance of colors, and why does he like 110 FL as his brightness??

I do like the ♥♥♥♥ though :D

posted by Westa- If what some post here in measurements assert there is little difference how is it that to my eyes and some other SXRD owners we cannot find a plasma or LCD to match what it did best - "Shadow Details" Blacks and the steps of gray. Understanding SXRD had it's bad points for sure.

Those posting this are in a small minority compared to you, me and most everything I have read.

Westa, it sure is too bad Mitsubishi doesn't make a top of the line CRT-RPTV anymore. You would be in heaven. I guess your wife wouldn't tolerate the big cabinet though. Is your plasma hanging on the wall? If it is on a stand I don't see how there can be an objection to any kind of set.

Owen, you missed my point. According to the article, CRT has the best gray scale which directly relates to shadow detail hence black is not the most important feature. The gamma setting I don't know about is my set's. Those charts have nowhere near 256 gradiants. They look like four of the same charts on my LCD. Also CRT has the best contrast (while still maintaining the best shadow detail) which is the most pleasing thing to the eye. When the Laservue can do this, then we're talking.

Remember that displays use 8-bits for each color. So that's 33 different gray ramps if you do the math (The zero bit doesn't count - black and then 256/8 or 32 + black). 0, 8, 16, 32, and so on. His ramp IS 256 shades of gray. It is just representing each 8th bit instead of the full 256.

Also, as far as that article is concerned: While it is a valid article, a lot has changed in 5 years since that article was written. Digital technology has grown exponentially since then.

HD Guru reviews the laservue:
http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Pretty much a rave. The photos indicate a hotspot issue for me, but he likes the set a lot.

I guess he doesn't see RBE. Not a mention. Other than that, it doesn't sound like the Laservue I saw. Maybe it needs massive calibration OTB.

I guess he doesn't see RBE. Not a mention. Other than that, it doesn't sound like the Laservue I saw. Maybe it needs massive calibration OTB.

Most Mitsubishi's do. :cool:

I guess he doesn't see RBE. Not a mention. Other than that, it doesn't sound like the Laservue I saw. Maybe it needs massive calibration OTB.
+1. Still didn't look like my SXRD.;)

The Laservue I got to play with had noticeable screen crawl, like small insects, when the image contained large areas of white. I'm not sure if this is what Mr. Merson calls "speckle". The black level was pretty good, but far from "jet black" CRT black. I tweaked the set the best I could using the owners menu.

To bad Mr. Merson didn't disclose what, if anything, he did in the service menu to make it look that good. Perhaps Mits is still tweaking the set and he reviewed a more advanced sample. Regardless of anything else, his comments about "speckle" cannot be reconciled with what I, and a number of others here, have seen.

I can't believe that these new sets will still suffer from overscan. Unless I am missing something, it seems that they do not have a dot-by-dot type setting. I am not sure how well Sumsung does it, but I know that the last couple of DLP gens from Samsung have a JustScan setting. As a HTPC user, this sux. I tried a current gen Mits DLP, assuming that there would be a dot-by-dot type setting, but no! I had no idea, and just assumed it did. Well, it didn't, and it was promptly returned. I would seriously consider this TV once the prices drop if there was a way to turn off overscan......

I tried a current gen Mits DLP, assuming that there would be a dot-by-dot type setting, but no! I had no idea, and just assumed it did. Well, it didn't, and it was promptly returned.

The current gen Mits will do 1:1 pixel mode if you name the input "PC". You can also do it by going into the service menu and disabling geometry correction. But I don't think you'll ever get away from overscan on a RP set... their geometry and tolerances just aren't good enough. But you can generally compensate for overscan with many video drivers by using a smaller desktop. I know I can with my ATI drivers feeding my Mits RP.

Great to see Mitsubishi continuing with rear projection with the latest technologies. Gives some hope to us who can't accommodate a front projection set up...

Remember that displays use 8-bits for each color. So that's 33 different gray ramps if you do the math (The zero bit doesn't count - black and then 256/8 or 32 + black). 0, 8, 16, 32, and so on. His ramp IS 256 shades of gray. It is just representing each 8th bit instead of the full 256.

Also, as far as that article is concerned: While it is a valid article, a lot has changed in 5 years since that article was written. Digital technology has grown exponentially since then.

So does this mean you can't post a chart with 256 levels of gray?

Great to see Mitsubishi continuing with rear projection with the latest technologies. Gives some hope to us who can't accommodate a front projection set up...

I read an 82" is a possibility. Now we're talking. My next set has to be bigger, it's required. :D

82" or better with a 2:35 screen would make the most sense.

A $7k display, and it still fails the 3:2 pull down detection test? I didn't expect much with the SD stuff. Good to see Mits didn't disappoint. :rolleyes:

Is this set capable of doing a 5:5 pulldown with 1080p24 content, or does it just perform a 2:3 and double it like the current gen Mits sets?

You would think there would be more reviews about magenta blacks on the kuros. The new 55xbr is out and cnet thinks the 9g's have deeper blacks. If it was magenta i think some reviews would mention it. Certainly compared to the very best lcd.

Let me remind you that CNET has never seen a Plasma they didn't love:rolleyes:

Well it looks like we have another "pusher" just like in the original Qualia roll out. He got people to order $15k sets based on his glowing, being in the industry recommendations then disappeared never to return again. Well at least this time it is only $7k and I don't know if one can order this set from Mitsubishi. Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it.

PS, funny isn't it when people have been taken they'll continue the charade as thay can't admit to anyone/themselves, that they've been taken.

You had to go back to that fateful day!!:D:D:D:D

I was at a Tweeters day and spoke to a salesman who I have dealt with in the past. He told me that they have been surprised at the lack of interest in the LV and he added that the market as a whole is very soft. With the economy in the toilet, spending in this market is not going to be encouraging this season. Especially for 1st generation 7K sets.:rolleyes:

Owen, you missed my point. According to the article, CRT has the best gray scale which directly relates to shadow detail and black is not the most important feature. The gamma setting I don't know about is my set's. Those charts have nowhere near 256 gradiants. They look like four of the same charts on my LCD. Also CRT has the best contrast (while still maintaining the best shadow detail) which is the most pleasing thing to the eye. When the Laservue can do this, then we're talking.

As has been pointed out that article is out of date. The only advantage CRT currently holds is black level on a mostly dark or full black screen.

Here is a link to a 256 shade greyscale chart.

http://www.j-a-b.net/web/hue/color-grayscale

If you want to see more “detail” in the dark shadows simply adjust the “gamma” in your video drivers.

So does this mean you can't post a chart with 256 levels of gray?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee111/lishbabe13/HT%20Pics/GrayRamp-1.jpg

Here's one that has both.

I was at a Tweeters day and spoke to a salesman who I have dealt with in the past. He told me that they have been surprised at the lack of interest in the LV and he added that the market as a whole is very soft. With the economy in the toilet, spending in this market is not going to be encouraging this season. Especially for 1st generation 7K sets.:rolleyes:


LOL, and Mitsubishi had better hope that they have enough specialty dealers left who can sell this kind of upper end product. They have whored themselves out and tried to appeal to joe six pack to the point that lots of higher end dealers have ignored them in favor of other products. Their hostility to calibration has left them with no place in much of the custom install market. Now they are going to need the very dealers that they have blown off in favor of the big box dealers.

Well my PS3 through component must pass BTB because all the shades are there. I did have to bump the brightness up to see them. This laptop, no. Boy does this forum look prettier/better on the Mits. Those LEELUU pictures, what a difference on the Mits. The blacks, contrast and color on the Mits sure do make a difference. I'm going to have to do internet on it now. Now it will hardly ever be off. What have you done to me! :eek: Now I wish all video had BTB (which means WTW also).

Point is - despite measurements and touted two million to one CR of some panels I've yet to see any panel replicate those friggin shadow details of that SXRD and the WoW Factor though I came close to it when viewing a Sony Z4100 LCD displaying Pixar shorts this past week as far as 3D effect was amazing - as if you could reach your hand into the panel and grab the characters.

My point is that I believe SXRD tested out at about 13K:1 CR yet to my eyes it's shadow details blew away any plasma or LCD I've ever seen. To me what the SXRD did right with shadow details despite measurements haunts me and is my Holy Grail. If what some post here in measurements assert there is little difference how is it that to my eyes and some other SXRD owners we cannot find a plasma or LCD to match what it did best - "Shadow Details" Blacks and the steps of gray. Understanding SXRD had it's bad points for sure.


I've said it what must be 50 times in the last 3 months, but I'll say it again. I can make your contrast level on virtually any set read anything you want depending on the size of the window used and the meter used. THERE IS NO INDUSTRY STANDARD, despite THX attempting to coordinate one. By using different size windows and different meters, one can make whatever contrast ratio they so desire for marketing purposes - which is why you are seeing what you are observing - as the numbers really have no meaning without a standard for the window size and the resolution of the meter.

The early SXRD’s did have slightly exaggerated red and green primaries apparently a deliberate move on the part of Sony and other manufactures at the time to give richer colors that customers would be attracted too. Sony changed their approach with the later models like the A3000 RPTV which had almost perfect primaries out of the box, no calibration required.
Some of Sonys current LCD’s are also very accurate out of the box, so it can be done if they want to.

Actually the XBR2 SXRDs that we both have falls short of reaching the proper REC 709 Green Primary Position and too a lesser extent on the Red Primary position, thus your use of the word exaggerated is somewhat contradictory to how they really perform as the gamut is compressed, not expanded.

An ISF calibrator who is supposedly rather well thought of in the SXRD thread has been able to move the green to the proper position on the XBR2 SXRDs, however, what he doesnt tell you is that there are horrible side effects with this method. Measuring several after his visits show it is moved correctly for 75 IRE (and where he makes the calibrated printout) but if you take the IRE higher and lower, it moves in and out like a balloon being inflated or deflated. As you are well aware, you want a constant gamut, not one that pumps with different light output levels. The XBR2s cannot do this if you want the primaries spot on.

The Laservue I got to play with had noticeable screen crawl, like small insects, when the image contained large areas of white. I'm not sure if this is what Mr. Merson calls "speckle". The black level was pretty good, but far from "jet black" CRT black. I tweaked the set the best I could using the owners menu.

To bad Mr. Merson didn't disclose what, if anything, he did in the service menu to make it look that good. Perhaps Mits is still tweaking the set and he reviewed a more advanced sample. Regardless of anything else, his comments about "speckle" cannot be reconciled with what I, and a number of others here, have seen.

He actually didn't do anything to the service menu.

They flew him to California and they had a Minolta CS-2000 on site.

He quickly went through the grey scale to confirm it and then checked the colors, which you see the results of in the article.

As you can see the green Natural y is off considerably - much more than any other reading and the current firmware makes it impossible to pull the green in to the REC 709 position of y.600 (.6790 makes it almost .080 off - much more than any of the other readings).

+1. Still didn't look like my SXRD.;)

Mine either.....my screen has the dreaded green haze issue.:(:mad:

I read an 82" is a possibility. Now we're talking. My next set has to be bigger, it's required. :D

http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/L65A90_specsheet.pdf - spec sheet

The specs for the 65" look good, and the fact that it uses less than 100 watts is great. Bigger screens are the market for this technology, and an 82" model would have customers.

IB

Mitsubishi already made an 82" set so putting out another should be no problem.

LOL, and Mitsubishi had better hope that they have enough specialty dealers left who can sell this kind of upper end product. They have whored themselves out and tried to appeal to joe six pack to the point that lots of higher end dealers have ignored them in favor of other products. Their hostility to calibration has left them with no place in much of the custom install market. Now they are going to need the very dealers that they have blown off in favor of the big box dealers.

Send it to Australia, I'll buy one when the dollar goes up again

When I went to see the LaserVue I was told by two of the sales reps at the store that there was a possibility and rumblings of Mitsubishi putting out an 82" LaserVue. As much as I'd want one, that's just a bit too overwhelming for my TV room.

But it certainly appears that the 82" rumours are being heard by multiple sources, so hopefully that bodes well for seeing it in the future.