Well, okay then.

John Stevens - could you answer the questions in my comment above?

Maybe compare something like "Gone with the wind" on Blu-Ray and 300.

I've heard that Tweeter is in trouble - any idea what exactly is happening with them? Close some stores? Closing all stores? Unloading inventory to pay off debt?


Tweeter is history , all stores are just liquidating the stock.

...It'll be interesting to see what the prices will be on the larger sizes ....

I'd also like to know how difficult it would be to get the 110 incher into a typical house. It's supposed to be thin so the carton might fit through a doorway, but let's hope there's no tight corners.

Does anyone know if a LaserVue set is on display in Colorado?

With all the talk about Mits larger future LV units, is anyone hearing any rumors about future split screen and/or PIP capabilities. There are folks out here who wish to monitor stock tickers, news feeds, etc, while watching other programming.

I'm still trying to fathom a $7K unit not possessing these capabilities.

I may get to see this set for myself soon. There was an ad in today's newspaper for "The Big Screen Store" in Virginia Beach, it said they have the LaserVue. There's no way on earth I'm ever going to spend that kind of money on a TV but I do want to get a good look at it. Unfortunately my work schedule won't allow me to get over there for another week or so.

John Stevens -

Are you still around?

They aren't true 120hz displays. At least all the other DLPs aren't (can't say for fact that the Laservue isn't different). They do 120 sub-frames every second, which results in 60 full (1920x1080) frames per second.

240 "sub frames", the final framerate is 120hz that you see.
DLP is easily fast enough to that that with wobulation. Heck, 240hz sets are on the horizon.
I know with the Samsung sets it's 120hz after wobulation. Many of the earlier DLP sets were 60hz after wobulation.

the newer DLP sets also handle 3D. It does 60 frames per second for each eye in 3d mode. Non 3D mode is 120 frames per second.

Drove 40 minutes to get a view of the vue. The same Mits loop was running on it and a Sammy 950. I was immediately impressed with the overall picture quality of the Samsung. It was sharp and bright. To me is seemed brighter than the laser. The laser had an excellent picture and was better than any other RP, but the 950 had contrast that just popped. The biggest drawback of the laser was the speckling that was mentioned earlier in this thread. With my 20/20 (corrected) vision, the speckling was very noticeable at an eyeball distance of 7 feet. This effect showed up in most solid colors. Viewing from 9 feet or more the speckling was not so noticeable but it contributed to an overall movement and slight fuzziness. That was absent in the 950. Brightness of the laser dropped off noticeably from a vertical off center angle, but brightness was fine off center horizontally.
The laser excelled in producing reds. The 950 reds were a much more orange in comparison. The laser reds were well oversaturated, I assume, because of the torch mode. I did not see any rainbow effect in the loop I saw. The laser did appear to reveal shadow detail better than the 950 which crushed blacks a bit, at least, with the factory settings. The 10 inch deep case is quite acceptable and it is impressive that the laser delivers such brightness at about 1/4 of the power consumption. I concur with others that the laser is nice over all and would have been fantastic in 2005, but not so outstanding in 2008.

Tweeter is history , all stores are just liquidating the stock.
Kind of a shame, but I always felt that they expanded way too fast back when they bought up various chains around the country. I stopped in 2 of their stores today and they are clearing merchandise out fast. It also seems clear that management knew this was coming as I don't believe they've been in liquidation mode for very long, but it's clear that they had slimmed down their lines and back stock in recent months.

The first store (Burlington, MA) had the WD-65835 at a good price, but only had the floor model left. I was only interested if I could get NIB especially with all sales being final and Tweeter obviously going out of business. I called another store (Nashua, NH) and they had one left in the box. It was $1871.99 - no sales tax in NH, so that saved me a bit over buying in MA. It's paid for and I'm picking it up tomorrow with my dad's pickup. So my behemoth WS-65909 CRT RPTV is going to get retired.

Waveboy isn't an owner - that came out of confusion from misattributed quotes. I'm pretty sure the only confirmed owner so far is John Stephens.


Yeah, John Stephens posted photos of the display in his home "confirming" ownership, but Neshi also seemed to claim ownership here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15043163&highlight=#post15043163). Maybe Neshi is still around.

Again, i dont own a LaserVue, it's John Stevens who does.

Hey, WaveBoy. It might be too late now to make much difference, but have you considered maybe editing your post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15058088&highlight=harry#post15058088) to make it clear that you're quoting John Stephens? All you'd likely have to do is remove the first "bracket-foward slash-'quote'-bracket" after Owen's quoted post so people won't continue to get confused. Pretty simple really. Should only take you about 15 seconds.

Just an idea...

Thanks for confirming that I made a good decision in my case...I bought the Sammy 67'' LED DLP a couple of months ago, and haven't regretted it. While it is not perfect, it still rocks (for only $2k). My set combined with a PS3 for Blu-ray and media streaming with TVersity makes an awsome set-up. Granted LaserVue lost me as soon as they announce $7k (and I had been waiting for about a year). However, your post confirms that it wasn't worth the wait compared to what I have in my setup now.

It's all personal preference, but in my case, I am happy.

P.S. While I'm all for more screen real estate, I had a bit of a challenge getting my set to where it had to be in my house with the turns and stairs. I can't imagine the challenges people are going to be having trying to get a 110'' TV in a typical house (unless you have a straight shot in from the door). Something to consider anyway. I figure I will have to wait until they come out with paper-thin displays that can roll up before I try to fit it in my house at 110+ inches. What are we....2, 3 years away from those? ;-)



Just saw the Laservue.

I've been surprised by the wide divergence of opinions about the picture quality, so I went to see it for myself. I finally understand the reason for the divergence.

There are three variables at play for the speckles. The Brilliant setting, the Natural setting, and the resolution/definition of the feed.

The Brilliant setting is the problem, if your source material is not a real 1080p(maybe 1080i) source. At 1080p, the Brilliant setting is truly brilliant. No speckles moving around, no white or colored speckles in white or black fields. Zip, Zero, nada.

However, if the material is not HD, the speckles appear. The salesman turned the feed the same TV show that the other screens were showing and the speckles immediately came on, as well as a kind of "blocky" color enhancement.

When he switched to Natural, the speckles disappeared. Looking closer, at both the LV in Natural and other DLPs, the film grain(?) looked the same. No biggie at normal viewing distances. In this case, 5-6 feet away.

I'm guessing the Brilliant setting enhances any color difference between pixels or small groups of pixels. If the source is less than 1080p(or 1080i?), and I'm not sure how much less, this differentiation results in the "ants crawling" effect.

I'm not sure how a Blu-Ray of an older movie with a lot of film grain would look but I'm guessing you might see crawling speckles. Also, interesting would be how a film like 300 looks with it's artificial grain.

Waveboy or any other owner of an LV - could you let us know?

The blacks looked very good, though the room was dim not dark.

There is very slight SSE if you get very close to the LV but you won't be watching at that distance. So, a non-issue. The viewing angle is very good horizontally, less so vertically but not horrible.

As far as the price, honestly, I'm not sure. The LV had the best looking picture there, if conditions were met and sports looked awesome in Brilliant, but not blow me away better. At $4000-5000, I might go for it. At $7000, I'd have to think long and hard about it.

Also, according to the salesman, 75 inch and 110 inch are coming out next year.

Well, okay then.

John Stevens - could you answer the questions in my comment above?

Maybe compare something like "Gone with the wind" on Blu-Ray and 300.

I am still here but I am not taking on any assignments. Anyone interested in technical details about the TV should read HD Guru's Review. I concur with all of his observations. As for me, I have been busy viewing each of my Tier Zero BD's and assesing them for picture quality. Additionally, I have check on the screen geometry using Sony 7669 patterns, DVE and built in test patterns in the TV. The geometry of my TV is spot on; no pin cushion or barrel distortion at all. The screen alignment is also correct and I have not observed any so called hot spots etc.
My hook up includes:
1. Sony S550 connected directly to the TV thru HDMI with 7 analugue Audio channels out to my AVR.

2. Denon AVR 3806 connected thru HDMI to the TV

3. DirectV HD-DVR - HR20-700 connected thru Denon 3806 HDMI

4. Sony 400 disk SD DVD Changer thru Denon HDMI

5. HP Media Center PC w NVidia 8500GT card connected directly to the TV thru HDMI

Both the TV and the Sony S550 are HDMI 1.3 compliant with X.V.YCC Color capabilities and Deep Color. Additionally thew two units have CEC thu HDMI such that the TV's Remote can control certain features of the S550 directly thru HDMI. Neat.

BDs I've Watched:

1. Mitsubishi Demo Disk
2. Ratatoulle
3. I, Robot
4. Man On Fire
5. Black Snake Moan
6. Kill Bill Volume 1
7. Kung Fu Panda
8. Iron Man
9. Fifth Element(Release 2)
10 Alien Vs Predator Requiem
11 Basic Instinct
12 Crank

As you can see, a number of these Bds are from the AVS Tier Zero list and accordingly, the Laservue Video images were superb. I've taken some screen shots of some of these, which bear witness to the outstandiing video quality.
I have not attempted to calibrate the TV, but have operated with OOB settinigs. My understanding is that these TVs are calibrated directly on the Assembly line during production, with three modes of operation:
Brilliant
Bright
Natural
And a special set up for PC

If you want to operate in the REC709/D65 mode, I believe the Natural setting @low Temperature corresponds to that. On the otherhand, the Brilliant settings brings forth the extraordinary colors of the wide Gamut capabilities of this TV. and unlike wha has been suggested by some before the fact, these wide Gamut images are delivered beautifully and without any sort of banding etc. In this mode, there is no TV on the market that can compare with the TV.
The mind boggling thing is that all these neat qualities are delivered with a robustness that was unimagiinable before:
We all know how reliable(robust) the DLP DMD is, they've been around for years now and to my knowledge no one has ever experience a failure of one of these things. I own three such TVs datiing back to the Samsing HLN 720P series. These TVs are still working today.

The stable wavelength and optical power delivery of the laser set with no drift over the lifetime of the TV, makes calibration a kind of permanent thing.

The much lower electrical power usage of these sets affords much less in the way of thermal stress, than we have seen traditionally.

The TV screen is a high tech gadget made with several layers of proprietary materials/functions, finished off with an Anti Reflecting Glass exterior. This construction affords a more rigid screen with a very flat surface that is excellent for good geometry.

There is no Rainbow effect on account of the much more rapid electronic switching of the laser drives compared to the filter wheels of the past.

All of this really glorifies the TI DMD, able to deliver now a Pulse Code Modulated Digital Data Stream to the Eye with sequential colors at considerably higher frequencies.
To sum up, I am perfectly satisfied with this TV and would recommend it to others without reservations.

I have not attempted to calibrate the TV, but have operated with OOB settinigs. My understanding is that these TVs are calibrated directly on the Assembly line during production, with three modes of operation:
Brilliant
Bright
Natural
And a special set up for PC

If you want to operate in the REC709/D65 mode, I believe the Natural setting @low Temperature corresponds to that.

Comical that a person who argued for technical accuracy for 45 days with a respected ISF tech and stated that they had been in the Industry for 30+ years would not have even checked to see how close the set was after 45 days.

Speaks volumes as to the BS.

Comical that a person who argued for technical accuracy for 45 days with a respected ISF tech and stated that they had been in the Industry for 30+ years would not have even checked to see how close the set was after 45 days.

Speaks volumes as to the BS.

Jeeze dude! Would you let it go already?!

First you chastise John Stephens for not purchasing a $7,000 television, and now that he has done that and sees fit to share his impressions with the forum, you nit-pick each and every one of his posts!!!

I seriously think that if you are not already under the care of a therapist, you you start looking into obtaining some professional help in overcoming your fixation with JS.

John Stephens? Thank you for the reports on your personal experience with your LaserVue. You have proven to been able set your ego aside, something that BC appears to be unable to accomplish. Your information regarding the viewing modes where they relate to the issue with 'speckle' is great to know. Also interesting is the factory calibration. Keep up the stellar work! ...or cut back on posts and watch more movies, that is what I would be doing! ;) I bet it is like watching a movie for the first time... all over again! ;)

If you ever find the time to throw an analyzer on the LaserVue, I (and many others) would love to see the numbers on it (with factory calibration).

BeachComber? PLEASE! 'Put up, or SHUT UP'!

You have repeatedly attempted to go toe-to-toe with JohnStephens. Why don't you purchase your own LaserVue, run your own tests.

Until you can stop placing each and every one of John Stephen's posts under the microscope and pony up with your own purchase and testing, you will not be taken seriously by this community!

Spence

John Stephens? Thank you for the reports on your personal experience with your LaserVue. You have proven to been able set your ego aside, something that BC appears to be unable to accomplish.

BeachComber? PLEASE! 'Put up, or SHUT UP'!

Spence

what personal experience? after all that talk pre-release, now he's lke "I don't owe anybody a post; go read the hd guru review". he can't be bothered to give us basic impressions of the TV as any regular AVSer would. and seriously, what AVSer doesn't try do to some basic calibration to see what if any improvement they can get? instead, just a lot of blather like what you expect to hear from a TI or Mits marketing guy.

feel free to suck up to john and see if he'll throw you a bone, but if he hasn't hooked it up to an analyzer after 45 days, he either doesn't have the mean or inclination to do so.

Beachcomber may come off abrasive, but I've come to the conclusion john stephens is just full of it. I'll take the abrasive guy, thank you.

(I usually try to stay out of these personal fracas, but this whole thing is annoying.)

So what we can take from all of this is that we have opinions that some want to start with an accurate reproduction of the image, per industry standards, and some like highly saturated color. This is not a surprise, as there are lots of people on both sides of the matter. It is also not surprising that those who are attracted to the LaserVue based on its claims of extended gamut are some of the same folks that like highly saturated color.

Personally, I prefer to wait until we get more experience with the unit from more objective reviewers and calibration specialists, and we see if over time the claims that are made for it hold up. As I have said for months, time will tell. For now there is still not enough experience with the set and enough data for me to form an opinion on it. I still maintain that extended gamut is not necessarily the same as accurate (or better) color reproduction, and that is simply a fact. Whether one prefers something else is just that, a matter of personal preference.

I gotta say, having been on the reciveing end of BC rant or two, that I tend to agree with Spence and to a lesser degree Barth.

JS has provided his impressions of the TV based on the fact that he owns it. After 45 days of viewing, he still owes this forum the same that he did before he bought it. Zip, zero, narda.

I'd like to see some calibration reports on the TV too, but again, if JS is unable, or unwilling, to provide, then we can do nothing about it (but quielty seeth that we can't afford such toys and do it ourselves....). It's his TV and we have no right to request/demand or wheedle anything from him on it.

Seggers

Beachcomber implies That JSs post is marketing hype. I can understand one suspecting such. Should he lay him out the way he did?

If JS is a legitimate non-biased owner, I doubt that he will ever post again. We therefore stand to lose user input.

On the other hand, certainly there will eventually be another buyer who will share their findings. Let's treat him with more respect.

Everyone should be treated with respect. Let's drop the discussion of this matter.

beachcomber implies that jss post is marketing hype. I can understand one suspecting such. Should he lay him out the way he did?

If js is a legitimate non-biased owner, i doubt that he will ever post again. We therefore stand to lose user input.

On the other hand, certainly there will eventually be another buyer who will share their findings. Let's treat him with more respect.

+1

everyone should be treated with respect. Let's drop the discussion of this matter.

+1

Comical that a person who argued for technical accuracy for 45 days with a respected ISF tech and stated that they had been in the Industry for 30+ years would not have even checked to see how close the set was after 45 days.

Speaks volumes as to the BS.

Just looking at the quality of this, your latest post, I can begin to understand how someone who joined AVS in 2008 already has over 1500 posts. I do wonder, though, what the total value is of all those posts collectively. I have been posting here since 1999 and during that period have amassed a substantial collection of very useful posts on a variety of topics of interest to AVS users.
On this thread, even, I think my contributions have been substantial. Hopefully, some users now have a better idea of how color theory works and what it means to have a larger Gamut. These are notions that are not intuitively obvious. They know a bit more about the features of the TV and the kind of images it throws. What useful tibit have yhou been able to share here? Let me propose for you and ,say 10 other folks fixated on denigrating me and this TV; why don't you pool your resources and go out and buy one of these to test. That would be $700 each. That would be a lot more fruitful than trying to direct me.

members would be wise to remember:

challenge [the information in] the post: never the poster

thanks

Hopefully, some users now have a better idea of how color theory works and what it means to have a larger Gamut.


Hopefully they also understand that no “wide gamut” video is available and that “wide gamut” is detrimental for display of normal REC.709 video.
Many displays have or can have “wide gamut”, but this is considered by reviewers and calibrators as a defect not an asset. Many people will no doubt like the look even if its not accurate, and manufactures obviously thought customers would like it as well since they deliberately made displays with excessively wide gamut’s. More recently manufacturers are going for REC.709 accuracy on high end models rather then “wide gamut”.

I found this interesting.

“The broad spectrum also eliminates speckle or scintillation in the image, interference artefacts created when narrow-band coherent light sources are use for projection.
Projection designs that use a coherent or narrow band light source, like a laser, require additional moving parts in the illumination path to reduce temporal coherence of light and reduce speckle.”

http://www.lifi.com/pdfs/ApplicationNoteLIFI-PRJ.pdf

Obviously Mitsubishi have not addressed this issue adequately.

Quote from rinseandspit

"I've been surprised by the wide divergence of opinions about the picture quality, so I went to see it for myself. I finally understand the reason for the divergence.

There are three variables at play for the speckles. The Brilliant setting, the Natural setting, and the resolution/definition of the feed.

The Brilliant setting is the problem, if your source material is not a real 1080p(maybe 1080i) source. At 1080p, the Brilliant setting is truly brilliant. No speckles moving around, no white or colored speckles in white or black fields. Zip, Zero, nada...."



I saw the infamous laservue and its speckles. The set had many positive attributes but the speckling was the major flaw.

The vue I saw was running the Mits loop alongside a Sam 950 with the same laservue promo. I assumed Mits would put out its best source for its $7000 baby. Maybe it was not a 1080p source after all. Why would Mits try to market the set with less than optimal source material? :confused: Regardless, there was no speckling on the Sammy. I was so caught up with that issue, that I did not fully appreciate that the vue produced better shadow detail than the 950. Also, if the speckling occurs because of non-1080p material, will it speckle-up gaming material etc?

If “perfect” video is required to avoid sparkles the display is a failure for general use. Personally I consider performance with less then perfect source extremely important.

More shadow detail is not necessarily better, it may be inaccurate. Without a display with a known accurate gamma being available for comparison no judgment about shadow detail can be valid.

How can more shadow detail be inaccurate? If the detail is there, in the source material, then it should be displayed.

How can more shadow detail be inaccurate? If the detail is there, in the source material, then it should be displayed.

Simple, shadow detail is a function of display gamma and video is encoded to a standard gamma. Too much shadow detail (to low a numerical number for gamma) not only results in inaccurate presentation, but can result in a flat two dimensional image with visible blocking or artefacts, as low video levels are not supposed to be so visible.

If “perfect” video is required to avoid sparkles the display is a failure for general use. Personally I consider performance with less then perfect source extremely important.

More shadow detail is not necessarily better, it may be inaccurate. Without a display with a known accurate gamma being available for comparison no judgment about shadow detail can be valid.

I don't understand the relationship that is being drawn here between speckle and video. How do they interact? Speckle is a problem due to the coherence of the light produced by the lasers, interacting with imperfections in the light path. Why would video parameters affect this?

I don’t see any relationship either, it makes no sence.

Yes, interpretation of “decent” can vary widely and I realise my comments could be easily misinterpreted. I was aware that the minimum wage in the US was low, but I did not realise the average income was only $35k, I do find that a bit surprising.

According to statistics the average male income here is around $65k and the average household income (two people working) is apparently around $100k. People on that sort of income do not consider them selves well of, they need it to pay a mortgage and get by. People on “decent” incomes earn in excess of $100k, that’s not high payed business executives or professionals, just average people in skilled jobs living in major cities.
I suppose my idea of “decent” does not fit in well with US expectations.:o

Laugh, I think people need to actually do research before making "awareness" post's. Although, I did enjoy the attempt at portraying Australian superiority in the context quoted above. :D

The median household income of Australia is quite a bit lower then the US. In fact, only a few very small countries have a higher median household income.

An interesting read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

Laugh, I think people need to actually do research before making "awareness" post's. Although, I did enjoy the attempt at portraying Australian superiority in the context quoted above. :D

The median household income of Australia is quite a bit lower then the US. In fact, only a few very small countries have a higher median household income.

An interesting read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

I probably shouldnt comment on a discussion that I know nothing about nor is related to laservue, but the devil made me do it :D

According to the CIA, the US makes 20% of all money in the world which is 17 times more money than Australia makes.

GDP (purchasing power parity):GWP (gross world product): $65.61 trillion (2007 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/xx.html


3
United States (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) $ 13,780,000,000,000 2007 est

19
Australia (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html) $ 773,000,000,000 2007 est.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

On this thread, even, I think my contributions have been substantial. Hopefully, some users now have a better idea of how color theory works and what it means to have a larger Gamut. These are notions that are not intuitively obvious. They know a bit more about the features of the TV and the kind of images it throws. What useful tibit have yhou been able to share here? Let me propose for you and ,say 10 other folks fixated on denigrating me and this TV; why don't you pool your resources and go out and buy one of these to test. That would be $700 each. That would be a lot more fruitful than trying to direct me.

Well, since you ask, as for useful information here, I am the only person in this entire thread that has given 1 technical fact concerning the measuring of a LaserVue which had not been published elsewhere - that Green cannot be made accurrate to REC 709 with the current firmware.

So yes, I will say that I have given more technical repeatable test information to this thread of the LaserVue than you up to this point, but only since you asked.

So what repeatable technical specs have you made about LaserVue and posted here?

You made technical comments about larger Gamut and argued with llacillo claiming yours were facts based on 30+ years in the Industry and hands on experience. Now you claim don't have a SpectroRadioMeter to do the test and give any technical information. What person is that involved in the Industry and does not have access to the basics needed for that job?

If you also check, you will find out that I saved someone who attacked me in this thread $2k on a Sony TV repair. Was that useful? The poster sure came back to thank me for it. I cannot find where you have saved anyone any money here - If I am wrong, please post me a link.

So yes, I will take the challenge of what "tidbits" i have posted in this thread and have no qualms about it.

As Mark Rubin stated, yes, I will challenge those facts any day of the week. It also makes me side believe more in the facts presented by llacillo from your previous back and forth for 3 weeks with him as I know he is ISF certified and has the proper test equipment to backup his statements - it now appears you do not by your own admission now.

Jeeze dude! Would you let it go already?!

First you chastise John Stephens for not purchasing a $7,000 television, and now that he has done that and sees fit to share his impressions with the forum, you nit-pick each and every one of his posts!!!


When did I chastise him for not purchasing a $7000 TV? Please reference that post! When he was all over the other poster citing technical facts and spouting off so called facts after facts after facts, why should anyone let it go that he thinks he can come in with casual comments that are unscientific and goes against everything he posted for 45 days. He gave us nothing that anyone going to a retail store to observe the set could not observe.

what personal experience? after all that talk pre-release, now he's lke "I don't owe anybody a post; go read the hd guru review". he can't be bothered to give us basic impressions of the TV as any regular AVSer would. and seriously, what AVSer doesn't try do to some basic calibration to see what if any improvement they can get? instead, just a lot of blather like what you expect to hear from a TI or Mits marketing guy.

feel free to suck up to john and see if he'll throw you a bone, but if he hasn't hooked it up to an analyzer after 45 days, he either doesn't have the mean or inclination to do so.

He stated he had worked in the Industry for several decades and thus had to have the equipment available (unless that was false).

I also invite anyone to read the time line from the time he announced he was buying the set, what he said he was going to work on and post - and then how he disappeared for a month (and no negatives were thrown at him during that time).

Clearly, its very easy to read between the lines here - though most would rather kill the messenger.

I bought a different TV months ago. I stay subscribed to this thread for the Jerry Springer factor.

I finally had the chance to play with the 65 inch Laserview at a Ken Cranes Video store. Frankly, I was not as impressed as I expected to be. The tv was next to a couple of regular DPL rear projection sets from Mitsubishi. We were watching sports on all of them. At first the set had contrast maxed out. I changed that and played a bit with the tint to get a flesh tone that was more realistic. My wife sat with me observing. She kept saying that the rear projection set next to the laserview had a better picture. I argued that the laserview was not properly adjusted. The other set had a list price of $2900. She really liked it. The flesh tones were better. I was never able to get the laserview to match that set's picture quality. Of course I only messed around for fifteen minutes or so. The other thing I noticed was the gainy picture. It is probably a product of the feed being only 1080i?? When I went up to the plasma wall and looked at the Panasonic th-65pz850U I did not see the grainy picture from before. Overall the Pan seemed to have a more realistic picture. This was not a scientific test of course. But I expected a lot for a $7000 set. The set is good looking, but....

Manny

...but there are too many variables at work here to make much of a conclusion. Until you can compare the two sets on the same signal and source, both calibrated to their best, you really don't have much to go on.

I'd still like to know from any technically minded person what Mitsubishi does to protect the viewer's eyes from laser light. All I was able to get out of Mits. was that the entire screen is in constant micro motion, to diffuse the beam I imagine.

My criteria for a display after PQ is that it doesn't dim appreciably from day one. LEDs and Lasers are supposed to maintain their brightness until failure. Bulb DLPs are still attractive to me because you can replace them and be at full brightness.

I'm curious about the Neo PDP, but have no idea about longevity and half life. I have to admit that the Panasonic plasma has an excellent , sharp, and contrasty picture.

But the Mits. 73835 always looks good to me, and I might jump on one if there's a great sale near the holidays.

Thanks

I'd still like to know from any technically minded person what Mitsubishi does to protect the viewer's eyes from laser light.

I can't tell you specifically how it's all done, but laser is hazardous specifically because it is such a finely focused beam. The fact that the lasers are illuminating the entire face of a DLP chip shows that the beam is being somehow diffused before it even gets reflected towards the screen. Once that diffused light reflects off of the DLP (which IS in constant motion due to the individual mirrors constantly switching positions), it is then aimed at another mirror that rapidly shifts (wobulates) the diffused, then cycled beam back and forth. Then that diffused, cycled, shifting beam of light is diffused even further by the screen. At this point, that highly focused beam of coherent light is scattered around the entire room. I'd be MUCH more worried about walking in to your average business presentation.

I'd still like to know from any technically minded person what Mitsubishi does to protect the viewer's eyes from laser light. ...

To back up Darin's reply, the only difference between laser light and normal light is the coherence of the beam. This is completely lost once it reflects off the chip and then is spread around the room.

I appreciate the responses. I know that laser light is, of course, coherent, but remember how decades ago they showed just how coherent it was by bouncing it off the Moon? And lasers in their first incarnation used beam splitter/mirrors in their production. Under all these circumstances the beam maintained its coherency.

The point about the various wobulating surfaces is intriguing, in the sense that motion might diffuse beam. I don't think, in and of itself, that a stationary mirror adds diffusion.

Just concerened about the eyes.

Did I read earlier in the forum abot 75, 85 and 105 inch laservues and Neo PDP displays? Anything to substantiate that? I do think the Neo PDP sound interesting, particularly if it has a longer illumination half life.

Thanks again for the responses.

I remember the Moon...

I'd still like to know from any technically minded person what Mitsubishi does to protect the viewer's eyes from laser light. All I was able to get out of Mits. was that the entire screen is in constant micro motion, to diffuse the beam I imagine.

My criteria for a display after PQ is that it doesn't dim appreciably from day one. LEDs and Lasers are supposed to maintain their brightness until failure. Bulb DLPs are still attractive to me because you can replace them and be at full brightness.

I'm curious about the Neo PDP, but have no idea about longevity and half life. I have to admit that the Panasonic plasma has an excellent , sharp, and contrasty picture.

But the Mits. 73835 always looks good to me, and I might jump on one if there's a great sale near the holidays.

ThanksThe diffusion occurs at the screen. What you see is not coherent light.

The diffusion occurs at the screen. What you see is not coherent light.
this is correct.
The other guys who mentioned that it was diffused by the DMD chip are incorrect. The DMD is mirrors and lasers reflected from mirrors maintain the same power.

The diffusion of the laser is when it hits the screen. Also it has nothing to do with the screen moving or not moving.

Simply it hits the screen and you are watching from the other side of that screen. So what you are seeing is the diffused light from the other side of a safe screen.

Class1 laser product.

The other guys who mentioned that it was diffused by the DMD chip are incorrect.

I don't know that anyone said it was diffused BY the chip, but I said it was diffused upstream of it. How else is it spread out across the entire surface, as opposed to just hitting one pixel?

I'd still like to know from any technically minded person what Mitsubishi does to protect the viewer's eyes from laser light. All I was able to get out of Mits. was that the entire screen is in constant micro motion, to diffuse the beam I imagine.

My criteria for a display after PQ is that it doesn't dim appreciably from day one. LEDs and Lasers are supposed to maintain their brightness until failure. Bulb DLPs are still attractive to me because you can replace them and be at full brightness.

I'm curious about the Neo PDP, but have no idea about longevity and half life. I have to admit that the Panasonic plasma has an excellent , sharp, and contrasty picture.

But the Mits. 73835 always looks good to me, and I might jump on one if there's a great sale near the holidays.

Thanks


I didn't get the 65835 that I was considering. Got the Sammy 52A750 and am thrilled, but, I felt the 835 was an excellent set, had a great picture and is a much better value that paying 7K for the overhyped, very overpriced Laservue.

i saw the laser yesterday at ultimate electronics here in colorado springs , and i am not impressed at all first off the dang screen has this sparkly like look to it and it isnt sse it is something worse. the colors were great though , but too saturated. MABEY IF MITS GETS IT TOGETHER FOR THEIR SECOND GEN THEN MABEY ........

I don't know that anyone said it was diffused BY the chip, but I said it was diffused upstream of it. How else is it spread out across the entire surface, as opposed to just hitting one pixel?
Curiously I had it from someone fairly high up the food chain at Mits. that the screen actually moves...I used the term micro-motion to describe this. This was the only thing he would share with me regarding diffusing the beam. The rest was proprietary.
He also said that If the integrity of the screen or set are impaired the set will shut off automatically to prevent the lasers from hitting the eye.

According to the downloadable operating guide the Laservue contains Class 1 and Class 4 lasers.

Regarding the lasers maintaining their coherency after reflecting from mirrors, that was the point I was trying to make. But there might be something to the notion that the constant motion of the mirrors in the DMD changes the axis of the beams comtinuously. If you hold a magnifying lens so that the focused sunlight rests long enough on one spot you get combustion. But if you move it around there is no combustion.

Cheers

I didn't get the 65835 that I was considering. Got the Sammy 52A750 and am thrilled, but, I felt the 835 was an excellent set, had a great picture and is a much better value that paying 7K for the overhyped, very overpriced Laservue.

What model Samsung? I thought the A750 model (the LED backed ones) were only available in 61 and 67 inches...

What model Samsung? I thought the A750 model (the LED backed ones) were only available in 61 and 67 inches...

They are only available in 61 and 67.

I bought a different TV months ago. I stay subscribed to this thread for the Jerry Springer factor.

Ditto. :D

Curiously I had it from someone fairly high up the food chain at Mits. that the screen actually moves...
To be honest, I'd have to see more on this to be swayed from thinking that there wasn't some kind of miscommunication somewhere. That seems unnecessary and impractical.

Regarding the lasers maintaining their coherency after reflecting from mirrors, that was the point I was trying to make. But there might be something to the notion that the constant motion of the mirrors in the DMD changes the axis of the beams comtinuously.
And the point I was trying to make was that not only do you have this constant motion happening from both the DMD and the wobulation mirror, the beam is diffused before it even reaches the screen (which then just diffuses it more). The only reason laser light is hazardous is because of the fact that it is so highly focused into a non-spreading beam. Once it passes through the lens of the eye, all the power of the laser is focused onto a small spot on the retina. But by nature, the laser beam must be spread wide enough to cover the entire area of the DMD mirrors. After that, it must be spread wide enough to cover the entire 65" diagonal surface of the screen. Even if the screen were just clear glass, the light is already spread out over such a wide area that it shouldn't be hazardous. But it needs more diffusion to give it an acceptable viewing angle.

There are so many things that happen to that beam before it makes to your eyes, it no longer resembles a finely focused coherent beam.

What model Samsung? I thought the A750 model (the LED backed ones) were only available in 61 and 67 inches...

I believe he is talking about the 52A750 flat panel LCD.

To be honest, I'd have to see more on this to be swayed from thinking that there wasn't some kind of miscommunication somewhere. That seems unnecessary and impractical.

Darin:

The whole screen in motion thing seemed odd to me, but if there was miscommunication it was intentional. I was specific in my questions, and unless I've fallen through the rabbit hole I remember him specifically telling me that the the beam was partly diffused by the "motion of the screen." He would not share anything else as it was proprietary.

To me it wouldn't seem proprietary or controversial to share with me that the beams were diffused in all the ways that you described, but there you have it.

Any thoughts about larger laservues, and Neo PDPs?

Peace

The diffusion occurs at the screen.

That doesn't make sense to me. A coherent beam can not be reaching the screen. My understanding is that the laser illuminates the entire DMD at one time. If that is correct, then the laser light must be diffused before it even reaches the DMD.

Like Darin, I am also find it hard to believe that the screen moves.

Hey. I'm looking for real answers. I'm not invested in anything but the truth of this.

Thanks

well, having a shifting screen would explain the $7000 price tag, but I seriously doubt it. sounds way too complicated.

wouldn't the simplest thing be having the light diffused at the source, i.e. by the time the light hits the DMD, it's already diffused? I find it hard to believe that by the time the light hits the screen, it's not already harmless like a conventional lamp light.

does the manual contain a BIG RED WARNING: immediately unplug the display if you detect any sign of damage to the screen?

i saw the laser yesterday at ultimate electronics here in colorado springs , and i am not impressed at all first off the dang screen has this sparkly like look to it and it isnt sse it is something worse. the colors were great though , but too saturated. MABEY IF MITS GETS IT TOGETHER FOR THEIR SECOND GEN THEN MABEY ........

Damn you!!! :) The Ultimate Electronics here in the St. Louis area only has an empty TV stand for where a LaserVue is supposed to be.

A warning to some of you who shop at Ultimate Electronics. Not all the sales people there are very technically inclined which is rather a surprise because UE is sort of a larger version of Best Buy's Magnolia Room. The one I go to has a salesperson by the name of Jim whom I spoke to over the phone concerning whether they had a LaserVue on display yet. Jim is a rather cocky sort of individual and a big Mitsubishi fanboy. The reason why I bring this up, is if you're gullible enough he will have you convinced that the display will show you MORE colors than what the Blu-Ray can feed it.... his sales spin was pretty obvious. One of my concerns was whether or not I'd be able to actually see the gradations from one extreme to the next but since I don't believe there's any Blu-Ray out there yet encoded with all that extra color depth, I don't know how you will actually get to see what is one of the LaserVue's biggest selling points. Perhaps Jim is trying to say 10-bit displays still cannot show all the color depth encoded with a Blu-Ray movie? Otherwise, his mindset would also probably tell you that upconverted 720p is just as good as native 1080p source because somehow the detail is the same.

Most of Jim's praise was about the tint or hue of a color and from that he was arguing that the LaserVue was showing more colors from a Blu-Ray than what you can see on any other HDTV. Maybe I'm a little slow, but it seems to me that you can only get out what you put in.

Aside from that, I talked to my usual salesperson (also at Ultimate Electronics) by the name of Dave. He got to watch an actual production model at a Mitsubishi rep's house and had this to say (keep in mind he admitted to me he's partial to DLPs):

1. LaserVue was on par or exceeded a Pioneer Kuros in every category except for black levels. He said the Pioneer still had the better black levels. HOWEVER, the LaserVue was able to show greater details than the Pioneer in dark scenes. Don't ask me to explain why or how that is, I'm sort of scratching on that one myself, but I'm eager to see this demonstrated.

2. The LaserVue uses one red, one green, and two blue lasers. It uses two blues apparently because our eyes aren't as sensitive to blue as we are to red and green? Don't know. He did say that the reds on this TV were second to none.

3. He was told from the Mitsubishi rep that should the chassis / cabinet get breached, the LaserVue is no longer safe to watch. Now this should be obvious, but it gives one a moment to ponder when you think about the whole Wii fiasco and controllers getting hurled at TV screens.

4. Cabinet was shrunk using fiber optics.

5. Unit comes instantly on after a 10-second power up diagnostics. There is no warming up of the laser light itself. Once it comes on, it's at full intensity.

In Dave's humble opinion, Mitsubishi hit it out of the park. He felt the LaserVue was a great value even at its steep price of $7,000. The 70"+ model will not come out until next year. Honestly, I just want to see if the LaserVue actually delivers on the hype. But I won't pay $7,000 for any TV. If I bought into this tech, it would be AFTER a 2nd or 3rd generation comes out and AFTER they make it available as a non-Diamond model like what Sony did with their SXRD line.

One thing I did forget to ask is how off-axis viewing was. I'll see what he has to say on this when I see him next.

well, having a shifting screen would explain the $7000 price tag, but I seriously doubt it. sounds way too complicated.

wouldn't the simplest thing be having the light diffused at the source, i.e. by the time the light hits the DMD, it's already diffused? I find it hard to believe that by the time the light hits the screen, it's not already harmless like a conventional lamp light.

does the manual contain a BIG RED WARNING: immediately unplug the display if you detect any sign of damage to the screen?

Just glossing over the posts so please excuse my ignorance.... is the motion you and others are talking about the "DLP wobble" in order to get 1080p?

Don't know if this has been posted anywhere else, but here goes. For those of us who want to view the Laservue in ILLINOIS, there was a full page advertisement from ABT in todays Chicago Tribune. Half the ad is devoted to the Laservue and mentions 3 year no interest credit. I'm anxoius to view this set for myself and am going to take a ride up there within the next few days.

What model Samsung? I thought the A750 model (the LED backed ones) were only available in 61 and 67 inches...

I ended up getting the LCD 52A750.

Don't know if this has been posted anywhere else, but here goes. For those of us who want to view the Laservue in ILLINOIS, there was a full page advertisement from ABT in todays Chicago Tribune. Half the ad is devoted to the Laservue and mentions 3 year no interest credit. I'm anxoius to view this set for myself and am going to take a ride up there within the next few days.

I wish Mitsubishi would get one to CNET for review...

Don't know if this has been posted anywhere else, but here goes. For those of us who want to view the Laservue in ILLINOIS, there was a full page advertisement from ABT in todays Chicago Tribune. Half the ad is devoted to the Laservue and mentions 3 year no interest credit. I'm anxoius to view this set for myself and am going to take a ride up there within the next few days.

I also got a nice Laserview advertisement in the mail, from Tweeter. Went to see it, no Laseview and no Tweeter ! My only "high-end" store now is Magnolia and they say nothing is in their computer yet.

Well I just got back from Ken Crane's in Los Angeles where I saw the Laservue. This is a pre dinner impression, so it will be short.

The colors were bright and intense and highly saturated, even at the natural setting ( if that's what the setting is called.) Blacks are very deep, contrast is high. I did not see any speckling. Off axis viewing pretty much resembles the 73835 which I also viewed.

Now I realize that the settings on these were not likely the same (although both were at natural), but the same program material was shown on both...a kind of travelogue. I thought the 73835 held up very well, sacrificing possibly a bit of visual excitement that the Laservue possessed. The Laservue's intense colors also added slightly more 3-dimensionality compared to the 73835.

On the other hand the 73835 was easier on the eyes than the Laservue, making it more relaxing to watch. Actually I found the 73835's colors to be quite natural. Watching the Laservue tired my eyes a bit, even at "natural" but who knows what bringing down contrast and brightness might do.

I also saw and was very impressed with Samsung's 55 inch LED backlit LCD display. The sharpness of the image was superb, and the overall effect was like looking out a window at a bright sunlit scene. The longevity of the LEDs would seem to offer a non-dimming picture. But I would like larger than 55 inch.

I went with a friend who is a film-maker, videographer, and his reaction was identical to mine.

Just my two cents.

I've since found out from a specialist that LEDs do actually dim or age before total failure, although the genteman I spoke with said that it was likely manufacturers of these (or other LED sets) compensate for the aging by driving them at higher currents as they dim.

I'm still curious about the Ned PDPs coming out in large screen sizes, if anyone has any information.

Happy viewing

Does anyone know if there is any AV dealer in Seattle/Tacoma area with a LaserVue on display?

Magnolia Audio Video in Bellevue should have them on display Black Friday or Saturday.

Magnolia Audio Video
14404 NE 20th St, Bellevue
(425) 747-0850

I saw the LaserVue in Electronics Expo. It was showing Transformers in BluRay.

As many have said the colors were vivid and it is bright. It is definitely one of the better DLP's I have seen, however, I did see the sparkles that everyone talks about. The sparkles are really only noticeable under 8ft. If you are further away then you problem will not see them.

While it is a good product in no way would I give up my 70XBR2 to get one, nor pay anywhere near 7K for this set. It is not quite as good as the best plasmas, which all cost less including the Kuro Elites. In this economy, I would say it is a 4K set at best.

With the speed that DLP's are leaving the showrooms, I would say if you want this set either buy now or hope to get this thing on closeout as I don't feel rear projection sets will be around long enough for a second or third generation set. With Mitsubishi's ridiculous pricing this set is doomed to failure and that's a shame as this could have been a good alternative to flat panel sets.

It is not quite as good as the best plasmas, which all cost less including the Kuro Elites.
But how much does a 65" Kuro Elite cost... While I agree that the Laservue is too expensive, it really isn't fair to compare pricing of a 60" plasma to a 65" DLP.

But how much does a 65" Kuro Elite cost... While I agree that the Laservue is too expensive, it really isn't fair to compare pricing of a 60" plasma to a 65" DLP.Are you trying to be funny or do you not know that there isn't a 65" kuro. It doesn't matter that it is 5" larger to me... I just care about PQ (except when it comes to PJs compared to flat panels, then I want a larger screen). In addition, I think that the price discussions here are out of proportion (so I agree with you), but the PQ has not been enough to merit 7Gs.

P.S. The Kuro elite 60" can be had for more than $2,000 below Laserview's MSRP.

I saw the LaserVue in Electronics Expo. It was showing Transformers in BluRay.

As many have said the colors were vivid and it is bright. It is definitely one of the better DLP's I have seen, however, I did see the sparkles that everyone talks about. The sparkles are really only noticeable under 8ft. If you are further away then you problem will not see them.

While it is a good product in no way would I give up my 70XBR2 to get one, nor pay anywhere near 7K for this set. It is not quite as good as the best plasmas, which all cost less including the Kuro Elites. In this economy, I would say it is a 4K set at best.

With the speed that DLP's are leaving the showrooms, I would say if you want this set either buy now or hope to get this thing on closeout as I don't feel rear projection sets will be around long enough for a second or third generation set. With Mitsubishi's ridiculous pricing this set is doomed to failure and that's a shame as this could have been a good alternative to flat panel sets.

I agree 100%. Regarding the question on Kuro pricing, the street price of the Elite 151 is well below the 7k Laservue.

When I saw the Laservue at Ken Cranes the seating was probably eight feet or so. At that distance I didn't see speckling at all. But I'm still curious why my filmmaker friend and I both experienced visual fatigue from the Laservue.

My discussion about the LaserVue price is not even for me as I am not about to give up my 70XBR2 for it, but for the technology as a whole. I would like LaserVue to survive, so that Mitsu can perfect this technology as an alternative down the road, but I think with the combo of RP technology dying off quickly and Mitsu's dumb pricing, this technology will not live long a least in RP.

As a side thought, have you noticed that Mitsubishi has been making lame moves in the TV arena lately ? They have only a slight presence in the flat panel area and come out with a tech like LaserVue as RP sets are dying quickly in stores. Honestly, if I was one of their strategists and I could not get LaserVue in at only a slight premium to my existing sets I would have just gave up and used the remaining money on getting my flat panel technology moving for the future. Just my opinion......

When I saw the Laservue at Ken Cranes the seating was probably eight feet or so. At that distance I didn't see speckling at all. But I'm still curious why my filmmaker friend and I both experienced visual fatigue from the Laservue.Maybe because it is so oversaturated and bright??

That could be it, of course. As I said in my first post I wasn't able to play with settings. All I could do was select natural on the Laser and the 73835.

A technician I spoke with said it might have to do with phase effects.

Samsung was as bright, and I dare say sharper, but I didn't find it visually overwhelming.

I wish Sony had made another generation of the 70" SXRD.

Are you trying to be funny or do you not know that there isn't a 65" kuro. It doesn't matter that it is 5" larger to me... I just care about PQ (except when it comes to PJs compared to flat panels, then I want a larger screen). In addition, I think that the price discussions here are out of proportion (so I agree with you), but the PQ has not been enough to merit 7Gs.

P.S. The Kuro elite 60" can be had for more than $2,000 below Laserview's MSRP.
I wasn't trying to be funny (and yes, I do know that there is no 65" Kuro yet), but trying to point out that the comparison isn't exactly a fair one. It's sort of like comparing the pricing of a Honda Civic with the price of a Toyota Camry. Obviously the more appropriate comparison would be Accord and Camry. I haven't seen a LaserVue yet (don't know of anyone carrying them in the Boston area - if someone does, please share where), but based on the feedback so far, the asking price definitely doesn't make much sense, even factoring in that there's some new technology going on here.

The 5 extra inches of diagonal screen size may not matter to you, but it is a pretty significant difference in screen surface area and represents a big jump in price for plasmas and LCD's. For Panasonic, the 58" Z850 plasma has an MSRP of $3999.95 while the 65" version is $6999.95, so it stands to reason that a 65" Kuro plasma would currently be a pretty big increase over the price of the 60" offerings. I don't think it would be crazy to assume that a 65" Elite Kuro would have an MSRP of around $8000-8500 given that the 60" model is $6500.

The 5 extra inches of diagonal screen size may not matter to you, but it is a pretty significant difference in screen surface area and represents a big jump in price for plasmas and LCD's. For Panasonic, the 58" Z850 plasma has an MSRP of $3999.95 while the 65" version is $6999.95, so it stands to reason that a 65" Kuro plasma would currently be a pretty big increase over the price of the 60" offerings. I don't think it would be crazy to assume that a 65" Elite Kuro would have an MSRP of around $8000-8500 given that the 60" model is $6500.

point well taken, but I think it's a pretty fair comparison b/c 1) you're talking about pretty much the most acclaimed implementation of a mature technology vs. the first of a new tech, and 2) the slimmer form factor, which matters more to more people (most people don't even ask which uses more power). I think that's enough reason to give up the size, esp. for << money (Mits is not budging from MSRP, so the diff is more than $500). I've seen a 60" Kuro next to a Sharp 65" LCD. The Sharp doesn't look that much bigger.

I think the laservue is about 1yr late or $3000 too much. IIRC, many more people on this forum jumped on the $10K Qualia 006 (the 70" SXRD) at this point in its release than have on the laservue. The landscape has changed and does not favor rptv.

This is true, barth2k, but Mitsubishi is not having trouble selling all that they can get into the dealer network, yet. If they end up being one of the only players in the RPTV market for really big screens and it ends up being 10% of the market, it is still a good chunk of the business.

point well taken, but I think it's a pretty fair comparison b/c 1) you're talking about pretty much the most acclaimed implementation of a mature technology vs. the first of a new tech, and 2) the slimmer form factor, which matters more to more people (most people don't even ask which uses more power). I think that's enough reason to give up the size, esp. for << money (Mits is not budging from MSRP, so the diff is more than $500). I've seen a 60" Kuro next to a Sharp 65" LCD. The Sharp doesn't look that much bigger.

I think the laservue is about 1yr late or $3000 too much. IIRC, many more people on this forum jumped on the $10K Qualia 006 (the 70" SXRD) at this point in its release than have on the laservue. The landscape has changed and does not favor rptv.^^^I agree (GSR and Barth). Don't forget that people are more likely to buy a 10K qualia just because it is a sony. I think that mits. is less likely to make the average joe (or the average wealthy person that just buys the best store looking/most expensive/brand name) think to themselves, "It's a mitsibuishi. They are the best,". But for a sony I know people who WOULD do that.

Mits needs to provide the Laservue with size and spot on correct color calibration out of the box. A 75" Laservue should have shipped first at the initiail price point and then as costs came down migrated it to a 65" size, to capture more market. After spending a couple weeks with a 735 I have no confidence in what Mits ships out of the box. Their color set on the bulb based sets is disgraceful

People would have paid attention to a 75" and it would have clearly been a differentiator against the energy hungry and very heavy plasmas.

Mits needs to provide the Laservue with size and spot on correct color calibration out of the box. A 75" Laservue should have shipped first at the initiail price point and then as costs came down migrated it to a 65" size, to capture more market. After spending a couple weeks with a 735 I have no confidence in what Mits ships out of the box. Their color set on the bulb based sets is disgraceful

People would have paid attention to a 75" and it would have clearly been a differentiator against the energy hungry and very heavy plasmas.

I agree with almost all your points, but there is one issue that has mystified me since the Laservue hit the market. It weighs 136.4 lbs. The WD-65835 weighs 74.4 lbs. The 65PZ850U weighs 160.3 lbs. The facts are the Lazervue is much closer in weight to the equivalent plasma than conventional DLP. The laser light source somehow added over 50 additional pounds, beyond the lamp based Mits 65". I can only guess that this may give us a clue as to why this set is so expensive.

I agree with almost all your points, but there is one issue that has mystified me since the Laservue hit the market. It weighs 136.4 lbs. The WD-65835 weighs 74.4 lbs. The 65PZ850U weighs 160.3 lbs. The facts are the Lazervue is much closer in weight to the equivalent plasma than conventional DLP. The laser light source somehow added over 50 additional pounds, beyond the lamp based Mits 65". I can only guess that this may give us a clue as to why this set is so expensive.

I believe I had read somewhere that the LaserVue's screen is glass? I don't know how true it is, but if so, would certainly help to explain a portion of the weight.

I doubt seriously that it is glass, but it is a deep-cut fresnel lens. These are usually several times thicker than the lenticular that most RP sets use as a front layer. I doubt that the overall screen weight is that much of a difference. Most of the weight is likely the shielding in the set, which is significantly greater than other designs. Lots of metal in the back of this beast.

Weight is probably due to build quality. My 70" Q006 is about 273 lbs. It has a plastic housing and plastic screen (no glass). The supports (metal) are small too. Therefore most of the weight is likely in the optical block (though it is only 20 or 30 lbs just having picked one up :(), the mirror (probably a lot in the mirror), and the power supply. The difference between cutting every corner, and putting in a little extra everywhere whould be my guess.

http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Quoting the review;
The screen is a sandwich made up of at least four layers of material (Mitsubishi would not specify the exact number). They include a Fresnel lens specially designed to achieve the L65-A90’s 10.05-inch depth, a lenticular layer, a glass layer (it adds to screen rigidity) and a very effective anti-reflective top layer with a matte finish.

As I have stated before - I am unsure as to if this is true, but if it is, it could explain some of the questions regarding the LaserVue's weight.

Cheers,
Spence

So no laservue owners as yet on avs?

One Call has it on the front of their latest catalog out a few days ago. So it is now easy to order one besides being available at mits dealers, 65" for $6999 and free shipping.

So no laservue owners as yet on avs?

One Call has it on the front of their latest catalog out a few days ago. So it is now easy to order one besides being available at mits dealers, 65" for $6999 and free shipping.
Only one (perhaps two) owners have posted here so far. A poster by the handle of John Stephens I think.

Only one (perhaps two) owners have posted here so far.

Two, I think. John Stephens (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15054380&highlight=#post15054380) and Neshi (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15043163&highlight=#post15043163).

[QUOTE=dssturbo1;15154244]So no laservue owners as yet on avs?

The small number of laservue early adopters is explained by reading the comments in this thread subsequent to its release. A year from now this set will have a MSRP far less than $7000. Or, it will be discontinued and available as a closeout at a substancial discount. The depreciation hit is simply too much, just ask the people that bought the Sony Qualia RP when it first came out. In addition, a year from now we'll know if the laservue is bug free, which is not a small issue given its ridiculous warranty.

One can always rationalize the decision to wait. Ultimately, that could lead to never acting at all. Still, in this case if you can afford to wait 6-12 months the return will make it worth your while. For those that have one already, they simply felt that the enjoyment of having the set now was worth the cost. I respect their alternative decision.

As I have stated before - I am unsure as to if this is true, but if it is, it could explain some of the questions regarding the LaserVue's weight.

I replaced the plastic screen in my 46" Sony RPTV with Denglass to reduce glare. It really didn't end up adding much weight at all. I would definitley say less than 10 lbs. But perhaps they used something thicker for safety/durability reasons. And mine ended up being three layers (fresnel, lenticular, denglass), as opposed to their 4.

I can't help but wonder if the extra weight isn't also partially due to attempting to build a much stiffer cabinet. Today's RPTVs are somewhat flimsy. I have a 73736, and I can bend the cabinet and see the picture geometry change. The Samsungs appear to be even flimsy. With a 10" cabinet, geometry is going to be even tougher to maintain. It may be a much stronger cabinet to better maintain geometry. Or maybe just because they thought a $7k tv shouldn't so flimsy that one could bend it and distort the picture.

So I just saw one of these in an Ultimate Electronics stores around here - entirely underwhelming. For starters, they had it off center in the main floor under the store lighting, and that killed the brightness of the thing. Maybe the black levels were good, but hard to tell with the lighting where it was at. Greens seemed off too. Not the most objective opinion or even fair given the circumstances, but I'm surprised a set selling for 7K would be displayed under such poor conditions.

I can't help but wonder if the extra weight isn't also partially due to attempting to build a much stiffer cabinet. Today's RPTVs are somewhat flimsy. I have a 73736, and I can bend the cabinet and see the picture geometry change. The Samsungs appear to be even flimsy. With a 10" cabinet, geometry is going to be even tougher to maintain. It may be a much stronger cabinet to better maintain geometry. Or maybe just because they thought a $7k tv shouldn't so flimsy that one could bend it and distort the picture.

I agree with the construction commen ... but the 73735 I tried had a much stiffer chassis than the 72" Sammy I finally ended up with. Oddly though the geometry of the Mits just sucked and the Sammy is nearly pefect. The Mits could not resolve 1080P, not even close, sad really. I can't imagine what the Mits geometry might have been like in a marsmallow cabinent like the Sammy has. My point is that you can actually get the job done without all the weight, my Samsung is proof of that. I hope the Laservue screen and optics is better than it is on their lamp sets.

The samsungs are actually MORE variable in geometry than the Mitsubishis. You can get a good or bad one in either brand. A firmer construction in the cabinet is a good thing in this regard.

I agree with the construction commen ... but the 73735 I tried had a much stiffer chassis than the 72" Sammy I finally ended up with. Oddly though the geometry of the Mits just sucked and the Sammy is nearly pefect. The Mits could not resolve 1080P, not even close, sad really.
Recall what the 73735 measured resolution was? If the Mits and Sammy are both using 960X1080 wobulation DLP, wonder what the main difference is? Noticed that the glowing hdguru review of the laser Mits doesn't mention measured 1080p resolution either. -- John

If the Mits and Sammy are both using 960X1080 wobulation DLP, wonder what the main difference is?

The most likely difference would be whether or not geometry correction was on. Otherwise, they should be very similar.

Can geometry correction be defeated on Mitsubishis?

(I didn't realize that my older 67" light bulb driven Samsung has electronic overscan which can't be permanently turned off. Now I start any protracted TV viewing by going into the service menu and shutting the overscan off...)

ALL RPTV’s have overscan in the projection optics, there is NO WAY to turn it off like you can on some flat panels.
The work around is to use a HTPC with a custom desktop size within standard 1080 timing, that will eliminate overscan but plenty of video still needs a little overscan so a little is best left in.

Can geometry correction be defeated on Mitsubishis?

Yes, it can be done in the service menu on the bulb-based sets (see the 735/736/835 owner's thread). Don't know about the Laservue.

Yeah unless the pricing is either wrong, drops quickly, or the images provided by this technology are just staggeringly superior, Samsung DLP sets could be the next unit I buy. 30,000 hour lamp life is plenty but I will admit the thought of laser being able to produce the same colors and vividness on hour 30000 as it did on hour 100 is exciting.

HUMmmm 30000=3.4 years constant viewing, well I hope I am an exeption, but the 6187 LED DLP from Samsung I own lasted 11 months , the red led is burned out and after 8 weeks total since it broke down, there's no parts or replacement TV from Samsung yet :mad:

Doesn't matter - science rules. Unless everyone has about 20/1 vision, that size at 15 ft will be 720p or less in resolution - and since 20/20 is more the norm, what you have stated is impossible.

I've had 20/11 all my life even now that I have to wear reading lasses, so it's a nominal value at best and the 20 feet has to do with what was consider to be infinity in optical terms :D :confused:

Thanks Owen and Darin. Good to know. I can accept the overscan from the optics, but overscan, geometry correction, and such that presumably compromises the mapping to the pixels is something I want to be able to shut off.

It was during the election night coverage with NBC using the sides to show statistics that the degree of overscan on my older Samsung (s6767w) was apparent. Have since centered the image and I turn off the electronic portion of the overscan each time I start the set for any long period of time (by starting out in the Service menu).

The DLP screen sizes are addictive and my next one certainly might be a Mitsubishi...

Anyone have any idea when the price for this TV will drop?

Yes, but it's a secret.

Anyone have any idea when the price for this TV will drop?

The day after you buy one. :D

I wonder how many of these have been purchased so far?
I doubt that we here on AVS are the only ones even considering these sets.
At the current price I don't even care to see one.

Anyone have any idea when the price for this TV will drop?

I've noticed prices on HDTVs go up right after Thanksgiving but the 0% interest financing options are aplenty around Christmas. I would think when the Superbowl rears its head that some deep discounts will start to happen. If not, I would expect maybe around Summer time?

I wonder how many of these have been purchased so far?
I doubt that we here on AVS are the only ones even considering these sets.
At the current price I don't even care to see one.


The supplies are trickling out. This set will be rather limited in supply.

Obviously, Mitsubishi is hoping the attraction of the flagship set will lead to spin-off sales of the lamp based, value oriented DLP RPTV products. The second generation of the laser sets will likely come in at a significantly lower price point, be mass produced, and will likely include much larger sets.

The supplies are trickling out. This set will be rather limited in supply.

Obviously, Mitsubishi is hoping the attraction of the flagship set will lead to spin-off sales of the lamp based, value oriented DLP RPTV products. The second generation of the laser sets will likely come in at a significantly lower price point, be mass produced, and will likely include much larger sets.

I hope you're right. If they can't significantly lower the price I doubt we'll see any more generations, second or otherwise.

I hope you're right. If they can't significantly lower the price I doubt we'll see any more generations, second or otherwise.


+1

If they can't get this price down quickly flat panels will far surpass this set in both price and PQ. As it is there not much activity here.......and we are the enthusiasts!

Flat panels have recently and will continue to dominate the market. With further refinements, I am sure that the price of the laser sets will drop into the range of lamp based sets and eventually replace them. Mitsubishi is hoping to be the dominant player in the really big screen, high value market and is betting on this technology to do it. When they have 75 and 85 inch sets, and if they look as good as panels they may be able to do it. There will always be a small market for large sets where panels are less cost effective. Even a small market can be a profitable segment if you dominate. If Samsung drops RPTV as some of their people have said they are doing, that leaves only Mits.

Mitsubishi has two problems..... Stores like BB, short of one or two models, are quickly getting rid of RP sets, hence it may not totally be up to Mitsubishi, especially for stores where space is at a premium. They will want to sell what they believe people want most, which are FP sets.

Mitsubishi's second problem is that they are a minor player in the near future displays (LCD's and Plasmas). Their LCD sets aren't even mentioned on the LCD forum when it comes to top sets. They have, I believe, invested in the wrong technology. RP is dying, LCD's are not. I still say if they determined they couldn't bring the LaserVue's at a "reasonable" price, then they should have invested their money on improving their Flat Panel offerings.

Well, absent some miracle in the nearer term pricing of 73" plasmas (and ideally much greater efficiency in power usage), I hope Mitsubishi succeeds. (Especially if Samsung leaves...)

They have, I believe, invested in the wrong technology. RP is dying, LCD's are not. I still say if they determined they couldn't bring the LaserVue's at a "reasonable" price, then they should have invested their money on improving their Flat Panel offerings.

Maybe, maybe not. At this point, EVERYONE has a flat panel offering. Everyone is a lot of competition, and there may not be many avenues left to do it better/cheaper than everyone else. But IF they can get their costs down, they could dominate the very large screen market. Granted, the >6' market may not be huge, but being the only player with an affordable and convenient (not FP) option wouldn't be a bad place to be.

I absolutely agree with lcaillo, that is what Mits should be doing. Mits is in a race to provide a large screen quality set with high value, before the flat panels can compete on price in a similar size. If Samsung pulls out of RPTV, Mits will really have a great opportunity.

If their strategic plan was a limited release of generation one in order to field test the Laservue, then their price makes sense. Punishing the early adopters I guess isn't a big deal if there aren't very many. Still, their window isn't going to last very long and if we don't see a $3500, or less, Laservue by the fall of next year I suspect it will be to late.

Still, their window isn't going to last very long and if we don't see a $3500, or less, Laservue by the fall of next year I suspect it will be to late.

Even if they can't perfect Laservue at a much lower cost, they can still bang out lamp based DLP fairly cheap. But they really should be moving "it" (however "it" may be illuminated) larger. Cost effective scalability is DLP's single biggest advantage. Their 73" sets need to be the beginning of the line in the not too distant future.

Mitsubishi should fire its product manager. 65 intead of the 73" was a very stupid move. Very few people will buy a DLP instead of a plasma at a higher price but the 73" would have no competition.

Mitsubishi should fire its product manager. 65 intead of the 73" was a very stupid move. Very few people will buy a DLP instead of a plasma at a higher price but the 73" would have no competition.

The Sony 55" XBR8 sells for $7k. Seems like the 65" LaserVue is a bargain compared to the XBR8. The question is how it performs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GIPMO4


The Pioneer 60" Kuros Elite sells for $5,700 so you have a point there. ... but the Pioneer is 5" smaller, consumes much more electricity, and doesn't have the color depth the LaserVue promises (on paper). How much of this matters to a potential buyer, one only knows. http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-PRO151-PRO-151FD-Elite-Plasma/dp/B001CE0594/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1228342840&sr=1-5

The most likely difference would be whether or not geometry correction was on. Otherwise, they should be very similar.

Even with geometry correction off on the Mits 735 struggles in the resolution arena, it will not "resolve" 1080P. It will display it of course. The difference between the Mits I tried and the Sammy when it comes to "resolving" 1080P is incredible. With an HTPC the text under desktops was terribly out of focus. It is tack sharp on the Sammy. Overall geometry on the Sammy I have is very good. My 65" HP could resolve 1080P adequately. Even the HP was not in the Sammy HL72A650 league. What the 735 Mits had in spades was excellent blacks and shadow detail, the DC4 really shines in that regard. The Sammy I have had nice color out of the box, but it the worst by far of the three sets in terms of black and shadow detail.

So, it is a pick your poison choice between the bulb based Sammy DLPS and the 2008 Mits DLPs . At 7K the only compromise one should face with the Laservue should be its price. I bailed out on the 735 over color problems the super soft resolution really was not that important a factor to me in returning the 735 to Best Buy. I would really, really liked to have kept it. If the Mits shipped out of the box with the color accuracy and resolution of the Sammy, there would not be much need for the Laservue. Before you say the 735 I had was a poor example.. I say your wrong. The guy across the street purchased a 65735 over the Weekend and it was overly soft with poor color too. My experience matches very well with the results of the recent 73835 vs. HL72A650 comparo in Home Theater mag.

Even if they can't perfect Laservue at a much lower cost, they can still bang out lamp based DLP fairly cheap. But they really should be moving "it" (however "it" may be illuminated) larger. Cost effective scalability is DLP's single biggest advantage. Their 73" sets need to be the beginning of the line in the not too distant future.

If they drop that price to a "real" number I will buy in a heartbeat. But 7k is nuts in this economy.

If they drop that price to a "real" number I will buy in a heartbeat. But 7k is nuts in this economy.

It's a Diamond series. You can make the same argument with a Pioneer Elite series or a Sony XBR series.

The Sony 55" XBR8 sells for $7k. Seems like the 65" LaserVue is a bargain compared to the XBR8. The question is how it performs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GIPMO4


The Pioneer 60" Kuros Elite sells for $5,700 so you have a point there. ... but the Pioneer is 5" smaller, consumes much more electricity, and doesn't have the color depth the LaserVue promises (on paper). How much of this matters to a potential buyer, one only knows. http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-PRO151-PRO-151FD-Elite-Plasma/dp/B001CE0594/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1228342840&sr=1-5

We can get the Panasonic 65" plasma (new model) for 5.3K and I bet 9 out of 10 potential buyers would take it instead of the LV.

We can get the Panasonic 65" plasma (new model) for 5.3K and I bet 9 out of 10 potential buyers would take it instead of the LV.

I don't doubt what you're saying, Costco is selling a Sharp Aquos 65" for $4k, but it's not Sharp's high end stuff.

This is a fair comparison of what I believe to be Panasonic's closest to a Diamond / XBR / Elite series (please note the retail price): http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TH-65PZ850U-plasma-widescreen/dp/B001EBEPX2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1228354939&sr=1-8

The Diamond isn't THAT far fetched in price. I merely showed that they're in the ball park and not so unreasonable comparatively speaking.

Most people's hang up is that it's a RPTV because RPTVs are cheap. The LaserVue is probably not very expensive to manufacture since it is a RPTV.... BUT the lasers used promise (on paper) to deliver more colors, will last the life of the TV, and is something NO ONE else offers. Oh, and operating one is a fraction of the cost of a comparably sized Plasma / LCD. Throw in a slick marketing campaign and position the product amongst the competing brands' top models, and it seems somewhat fair. Mitsubishi will eventually come out with a non-Diamond version, but like with any new tech, a company is going to release their product at the top tier first to recoup as much of the R&D as quickly as possible.

Like I said before, you can make the same argument about an Elite or XBR model selling for top dollar.

I don't doubt what you're saying, Costco is selling a Sharp Aquos 65" for $4k, but it's not Sharp's high end stuff.

This is a fair comparison of what I believe to be Panasonic's closest to a Diamond / XBR / Elite series (please note the retail price): http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TH-65PZ850U-plasma-widescreen/dp/B001EBEPX2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1228354939&sr=1-8

The Diamond isn't THAT far fetched in price. I merely showed that they're in the ball park and not so unreasonable comparatively speaking.
When only comparing MSRP, the Laservue isn't too far out of line compared to comparable options. The problem comes when you compare street prices - that Panasonic is selling for $5100 on Amazon. My understanding is that the Laservue is currently selling for the full $7k - no discounts for now. As long as they sell the small number that they put out on the market, Mits has no real reason to lower the price. If they want to sell a lot of them, the street price will have to drop.

Even with geometry correction off on the Mits 735 struggles in the resolution arena, it will not "resolve" 1080P. It will display it of course. The difference between the Mits I tried and the Sammy when it comes to "resolving" 1080P is incredible. With an HTPC the text under desktops was terribly out of focus.

Hmmm, I have no problem resolving 1080p on mine (736), using a test pattern. And no problems discerning pixel wide text from my PC. Are you sure you had disabled geometry correction?

When only comparing MSRP, the Laservue isn't too far out of line compared to comparable options. The problem comes when you compare street prices - that Panasonic is selling for $5100 on Amazon. My understanding is that the Laservue is currently selling for the full $7k - no discounts for now. As long as they sell the small number that they put out on the market, Mits has no real reason to lower the price. If they want to sell a lot of them, the street price will have to drop.

The mistake you're making is most HDTVs debut at their MSRP.... and most don't usually have a supply problem like the LaserVues when they debut.

I'm trying to take a big picture assessment of Mitsubishi pricing amongst all brands. You're limiting your argument to one specific model of Panasonic while excluding Sony and Pioneer... I have also stated the street price of a Sony 55" XBR8 is selling for $7,000 and a Pioneer Elite 60" isn't dramatically cheaper given its size and features than the LaserVue. Like I said before, you can make the same argument with those HDTVs and you can come back with that specific Panasonic model selling for $5,100. So what?

It seems like you're basing your entire argument strictly on screen size and ignoring that there are also high end models from Sony and Pioneer consistent with the size and pricing of the LaserVue. Mitsubishi is selling something for a niche group of people who are buying something no one else makes. How long has the 65" Panasonic plasma been on the "streets"? What did it sell for when it debuted and for how much?

The only places carrying a LaserVue to my knowledge are "authorized" merchants and in order to have that status, those merchants are being required by Mitsubishi to sell at MSRP.

If the price is that far fetched, they will drop the prices to move inventory. If your budget is limited to around $5k, then go buy the Panasonic. It's pointless to gripe about the LaserVue's price when there are also other competitors selling at similarly excessive prices.... except for that one TV.

As for me, I just want to see the LaserVue to see if it lives up to the hype. I won't pay over $2,000 for any HDTV, so that means I wouldn't even buy the Panasonic 65" Plasma or any HDTV close to 60" for that matter. Until prices become more linear, I'm limiting my purchases to 50".

As long as there are wealthy suckers willing to pay Mitsubishi's asking price with a limited supply then there is no reason for Mitsubishi to drop the price. Why would you? I'm hearing they're selling out on models at $7K..... hell if I were Mitsubishi, I'd keep it at $7k too.

Hmmm, I have no problem resolving 1080p on mine (736), using a test pattern. And no problems discerning pixel wide text from my PC. Are you sure you had disabled geometry correction?

Absolutely sure!

You would get swirls in test patterns generated by a DVDO Edge when geometry correction was on. The swirls would go away when the geometry correction was turned off. You could make out the vertical and horizontal lines in a 1080P test pattern also on a 1080P checkerboard test pattern, but there is a world off difference between the 735 and the Sammy. On the Mits they were all there, but not really clear. It doesn't matter how good the source I tired on the Mits, it was quite soft.

The Sammy with same device and same content was amazingly sharp. Surprizingly, the Sammy can operate with very little overscan. While Mits was only tolerable on the horizontal and vertical edges compared to some DLPs I have seen. You did not want to show any underscan at all with the Mits, it was just too much bow.

The Sammy is totally different. I guess I should count myself lucky. It is no more than a 1/16 of an inch variation along each vertical an horizontal edge. The Sammy is almost like an LCD. I am running the HTPC through the Edge which has an underscan adjustment. I can set vertical edges of the desktop to be almost exactly at the edge of the visible screen. You have to get your face right the bezel and which is beveled back and you have a perfect 1/16" inch black border on left and right sides. Using the Edge underscan control You scan set the horizontal top and bottom edges of the desktop to be parallel with the bezel and you will see about 1/32 of an inch variations here and there. It is an astonishly square image. The text under the Vista desktop icons looks quite good. The Mits was so so in the middle third of the screen horizontal but the other two thirds were just plain blurry. My viewing distance is about 13.5 feet, so while the Mits was a good bit softer than the HP 65" I was willing to accept that as part of the cost of the extra 8 inches of display.

It is all very odd in a way because the Mits has by far the sturdier chassis. I can't tell for sure but subjectively the SSE on the Mits seemed less than on the Sammy. So maybe the problem with the Mits is the screen itself. You would think the stiff chassis on the Mits would enhance the geometry but in the one I had for 3 weeks, and the 65735 the guy across the street picked up Friday look very similar. The Sammy needs the DC4 as it is at the ragged edge of its users adjustment. I had to experiment with the Gamma Settings as the default one for Movie mode just doesn't make any shadow detail at all.

The Home Theater reviewers found the Mits failing the 1080 rez test as well. Did they disable geometry correction on the Mits, I don't know. On the Sammy it is a user menu option called "Just Scan"

The Home Theater reviewers found the Mits failing the 1080 rez test as well. Did they disable geometry correction on the Mits, I don't know. On the Sammy it is a user menu option called "Just Scan"

Please keep in mind that the Home Theatre review was with a Samsung 61a650 and not the most current (and way better) 61a750.

The Home Theater reviewers found the Mits failing the 1080 rez test as well. Did they disable geometry correction on the Mits, I don't know. On the Sammy it is a user menu option called "Just Scan"

I'm assuming they didn't, because they went into a fair amount of detail of what they DID do in the sidebar about the service menu, and never mentioned it. There is no obvious way to turn it on/off without knowing the correct sequence in the service menu, but I believe it is turned off automatically on an input labeled "PC" if you label it that way (assuming that even works... labeling an input "AVR" makes it forget your settings, so I've left everything at stock labeling).

As far as the DVDO Edge's underscan control... seems to me that that would ruin 1:1 pixel mapping (effectively having the same side effect of geometry correction). But I guess as long as you're getting good results, that's all that matters. :)

It is all very odd in a way because the Mits has by far the sturdier chassis. I can't tell for sure but subjectively the SSE on the Mits seemed less than on the Sammy. So maybe the problem with the Mits is the screen itself. You would think the stiff chassis on the Mits would enhance the geometry but in the one I had for 3 weeks, and the 65735 the guy across the street picked up Friday look very similar. The Sammy needs the DC4 as it is at the ragged edge of its users adjustment. I had to experiment with the Gamma Settings as the default one for Movie mode just doesn't make any shadow detail at all.

Before I bought my Sammy HL67A750 I looked at the Mits bulb units .

At two different stores I looked down a row of
tv screens at a very shallow horizontal angle. All the mits screens looked warped, or curved. At CC, the displays were alternated MIts, Sammy, Mits, Sammy, in different sizes. At that angle, the Sammy screens looked flat, the Mits screens ALL looked warped, or curved.

Not radically, but quite likely enough to cause geometry problems.

As for me, I just want to see the LaserVue to see if it lives up to the hype. I won't pay over $2,000 for any HDTV, so that means I wouldn't even buy the Panasonic 65" Plasma or any HDTV close to 60" for that matter. Until prices become more linear, I'm limiting my purchases to 50".


You can get the 67" Sammy LED DLP for well under your 2K figure, unless you must have a plasma.

You can get the 67" Sammy LED DLP for well under your 2K figure, unless you must have a plasma.

I don't like RPTVs due to their off-axis viewing issues. I'm curious to know if the LaserVue will suffer from the same problem.

But for me, I gravitate towards the Plasmas. I prefer the better black levels and I cannot stand the 120Hz judder effect that people pay a premium for on LCDs.

If the price is that far fetched, they will drop the prices to move inventory. If your budget is limited to around $5k, then go buy the Panasonic. It's pointless to gripe about the LaserVue's price when there are also other competitors selling at similarly excessive prices.... except for that one TV.

As long as there are wealthy suckers willing to pay Mitsubishi's asking price with a limited supply then there is no reason for Mitsubishi to drop the price. Why would you? I'm hearing they're selling out on models at $7K..... hell if I were Mitsubishi, I'd keep it at $7k too.[/QUOTE]

The price is far fetched for three reasons. First, it is a RPTV. Hence, in the general market place it is at a form factor disadvantage. To most consumers if it is not a flat panel, it is passe. Second, it's street price is much higher than the current 65" Panny or Elite 151. Third, the laservue doesn't approach the black level of the Elite 151 and the screen has speckles. I've seen the 850 65" Panny, the 151 and the Laservue all at the same location. If I was to buy one of these three right now, based purely on the best picture, it wouldn't be the laservue.

I went into this hoping the Laservue was going to be a real bell ringer. While I was stunned by the price, if the performance had been there I still would have bought one. Other than lower energy consumption and some unique color capabilities, it really doesn't offer much to justify the price. It is a very good RPTV, better than the LED and lamp based sets currently on the market. But, in my opinion it is not as good as the state of the art plasma competition and certainly doesn't justify a much higher street price.

You might ask that since I like plasma so much, why don't I just buy one? Weight, energy use, heat, burn in and the lack of size. I have a 61" now and what I really want is a 70" or more. What I want doesn't exist. I want a black level at least as good as a 9G Kuro. Perhaps Mits will seize the opportunity many have been advocating here. Get realistic on the price and come out with the 73" model. They should be targeting the larger screens, not a 65" where very strong competition already exists in this price range.

I don't like RPTVs due to their off-axis viewing issues. I'm curious to know if the LaserVue will suffer from the same problem.

But for me, I gravitate towards the Plasmas. I prefer the better black levels and I cannot stand the 120Hz judder effect that people pay a premium for on LCDs.

Alll perfectly valid points.

I'm just thrilled with the picture of my Sammy, and the price/size ratio bargain it is as well, but it wouldn't matter if the picture sucked. To me, it doesn't. :)

I don't like RPTVs due to their off-axis viewing issues. I'm curious to know if the LaserVue will suffer from the same problem.

From hdguru's review (http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/):
Off-axis viewing confirmed an acceptable viewing angle of around 130 degrees horizontal with a gradual drop off in brightness as one moves from center. There was no color shift seen as one moves off center. The viewing angle compares favorably to many LCD flat panels and is far better than any of the LED backlit LCDs observed to date. Plasma is still is the king in uniform horizontal off-axis viewing. Vertical viewing brightness drops off considerably as one shifts above or below center, this is similar to many LCD flat panels, once again, plasma is the best performer in this category.

The price is far fetched for three reasons. First, it is a RPTV. Hence, in the general market place it is at a form factor disadvantage. To most consumers if it is not a flat panel, it is passe. Second, it's street price is much higher than the current 65" Panny or Elite 151. Third, the laservue doesn't approach the black level of the Elite 151 and the screen has speckles. I've seen the 850 65" Panny, the 151 and the Laservue all at the same location. If I was to buy one of these three right now, based purely on the best picture, it wouldn't be the laservue.

I went into this hoping the Laservue was going to be a real bell ringer. While I was stunned by the price, if the performance had been there I still would have bought one. Other than lower energy consumption and some unique color capabilities, it really doesn't offer much to justify the price. It is a very good RPTV, better than the LED and lamp based sets currently on the market. But, in my opinion it is not as good as the state of the art plasma competition and certainly doesn't justify a much higher street price.

You might ask that since I like plasma so much, why don't I just buy one? Weight, energy use, heat, burn in and the lack of size. I have a 61" now and what I really want is a 70" or more. What I want doesn't exist. I want a black level at least as good as a 9G Kuro. Perhaps Mits will seize the opportunity many have been advocating here. Get realistic on the price and come out with the 73" model. They should be targeting the larger screens, not a 65" where very strong competition already exists in this price range.

And I don't have a problem with how you see this. The LaserVue is about recycling existing tech and replacing light bulbs with laser light. No one else is using lasers. It's marketing spin with hype over lower energy consumption, lights that last the lifetime of the HDTV, with superior colors.

That being said, if you really want to say what is reasonable or not, we should really be looking at what brick and mortar retailers are selling the Elite or XBR8 in comparison since you can only get the LaserVue (to my knowledge) through brick and mortar retailers.

A 55" Sony XBR8 will set you back $7,000. The Pioneer 60" Elite is going for $6,500 at Best Buy. Assuming a linear relationship between size and price, at $108.33 per inch on the 60" Elite, a 65" Pioneer Elite would set you back $7,041. We can go in circles, but the Mitsubishi is not the only TV excessively priced at local brick and mortar retailers. Can you find the Pioneer for less online? You sure can through non brick and mortar places like Amazon. But I won't order such a high dollar item through mail order. Some people will, but I won't for fear of getting a DOA and having to mail it back. What I would love to know is if someone has become a member of DirectBuy and if so, what the TVs we're talking about is selling for. I'm too cheap to become a member of DirectBuy.

I also don't disagree with how most people would rather have a panel display. Consequently while all of us are calling a spade a spade, Mitsubishi is marketing this RPTV as a "panel" display. Yeah, I know. You're probably saying WTF. It's probably because 10" deep is considered thin for RPTVs and because you can realistically hang this HDTV if your heart desired it. Again marketing spin.

I like plasmas too, but burn-in is a weak argument which gets pushed by the LCD competition. All CRTs and Trinitrons suffer from the same problem. I've had my Trinitron for over 10 years now (with none of the high-tech preventive stuff for burn-in) and I have no phosphor burn. Energy consumption is also weak.... it comes to about what? $100 a year difference in your electricity bill? Maybe. Plasmas have excellent black levels and great off-axis viewing. I gravitate towards Plasmas. But I won't buy anything larger than 50" because the jump in pricing for those extra 10 inches is not worth it in my eyes.

Would I pay $7,000 for a 65" Diamond LaserVue or $6,500 for a 60" Pioneer Elite (my fav)? Absolutely not. But there are people who will.... and from what I'm seeing, Mitsubishi is not having any problem selling out on their limited supply of LaserVues.

The day when they have a hard time moving their product is the day consumers tell Mitsubishi that the TV is excessive. So far, they're not getting that message.

Mitsubishi is obviously having problems cranking these HDTVs out (or so it seems) which is rolled into their pricing. I'm sure when they start ramping things up, we'll all see prices drop maybe 20% or more.... but I still won't buy it. I'm just curious to see if it lives up to the hype. You've at least had the luxury of seeing one.... all I can do is wait until all the rich people stop buying the models my local merchant's HQ office gets so that they can actually get a damn display model up.

Alll perfectly valid points.

I'm just thrilled with the picture of my Sammy, and the price/size ratio bargain it is as well, but it wouldn't matter if the picture sucked. To me, it doesn't. :)

You should look at the 950 series. I nearly passed out seeing one of these... the blacks were so dark it was like looking at ink.... I thought it was a plasma, but it was an LCD.

From hdguru's review (http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/):

Didn't Sony's SXRDs claim a viewing angle of about 160 degrees?

But I won't buy anything larger than 50" because the jump in pricing for those extra 10 inches is not worth it in my eyes.
Did you know that a 65" TV has 737 square inches more screen area than a 50"?

Bigger IS better.

Did you know that a 65" TV has 737 square inches more screen area than a 50"?

Bigger IS better.

I agree, I do like bigger screens, but I'm not interested in making someone rich by paying skyrocketing prices for those last 10" or 15". You do not pay a linear increase... the moment you start hitting 60", the price sky rockets.

It seems as though some of the high end Plasmas have reached that perfect black level(at least in my eyes). Pioneer comes to mind, and some of the Panny Models. And now even the Samsung 950 Series LED LCDs is on the mark, and LaserVue seems to nailed it as well.

So at least we can say, LaserVue, Plasma and even the new LED LCDs( the new Samsung 950 series and the new Sony LEDs) have nailed down Blacks....So what does that leave us with. COLOR and MOTION. Plasmas and LCDs still arent there yet regarding that when compared to CRT. LaserVue on the other hand seems to better both when dealing with color. But does it rival them both when it comes to dealing with Motion?:confused:

As it stands(again)...I honestly dont feel i'll ever make the jump to HD untill Sammys or Sonys Larger sized OLEDS hit the market in 2011....we'll be seeing a 23" OLED this year apperantly and in 2010 a 42". but 2011 will be pumping out the larger displays....Anyways, does anybody here actually think these companies will come out with an LED LCD or plasma that can match CRT regarding motion and color?
I just dont want to settle for anything less performance wise while getting the obviouse HD, progressive, HDMI and widescreen benefits.
Honestly for now, i'd be extremely happy if i could get my hands on a 480p 40" Widescreen CRT.

Waveboy,

I'm pretty sure motion is the one thing DLP has no problems with. I could be wrong but every time I look at a DLP, I'm amazed at how good the motion( ie. sports) look on the dang things.

The mistake you're making is most HDTVs debut at their MSRP.... and most don't usually have a supply problem like the LaserVues when they debut.

I'm trying to take a big picture assessment of Mitsubishi pricing amongst all brands. You're limiting your argument to one specific model of Panasonic while excluding Sony and Pioneer... I have also stated the street price of a Sony 55" XBR8 is selling for $7,000 and a Pioneer Elite 60" isn't dramatically cheaper given its size and features than the LaserVue. Like I said before, you can make the same argument with those HDTVs and you can come back with that specific Panasonic model selling for $5,100. So what?

It seems like you're basing your entire argument strictly on screen size and ignoring that there are also high end models from Sony and Pioneer consistent with the size and pricing of the LaserVue. Mitsubishi is selling something for a niche group of people who are buying something no one else makes. How long has the 65" Panasonic plasma been on the "streets"? What did it sell for when it debuted and for how much?

The only places carrying a LaserVue to my knowledge are "authorized" merchants and in order to have that status, those merchants are being required by Mitsubishi to sell at MSRP.
You seem to be taking my comments just a bit too seriously. All I was getting at was that when there's a less expensive option at the same screen size with better overall picture quality, why would anyone buy the more expensive option? It really doesn't matter how long each option has been out on the market or what prices they debuted at. What matters is the CURRENT price of each option. I realize that the price of the LaserVue will come down at some point - when it does, there might be a more compelling reason to consider buying one.

As to your comment about screen size, yes I am largely limiting my comments to the large (>60") screen sizes and do realize that some of the other high end options from Pioneer and Sony would cost even more than $7000 if they existed in larger screen sizes. The only reason, IMHO, to get a LaserVue or other RPTV is to get a large screen. Screen sizes of 60" and especially below have tons of excellent options and the prices of those options have been falling fast. Larger than 65" gets you into a very short list of options and the prices tend to go up fast. But, given that the Panasonic 65" can be had for around $5100, I see no compelling reason to pay $7000 for a LaserVue.

If the price is that far fetched, they will drop the prices to move inventory. If your budget is limited to around $5k, then go buy the Panasonic. It's pointless to gripe about the LaserVue's price when there are also other competitors selling at similarly excessive prices.... except for that one TV.
My budget isn't really limited to anything in particular, but when I could get a Panasonic 65" plasma for ~$2k less than the LaserVue, I see no compelling reason to get the LaserVue given the feedback has been less than stellar so far (I don't know of any local dealer where I can go see one, so all I have to go by is the feedback here so far).

As long as there are wealthy suckers willing to pay Mitsubishi's asking price with a limited supply then there is no reason for Mitsubishi to drop the price. Why would you? I'm hearing they're selling out on models at $7K..... hell if I were Mitsubishi, I'd keep it at $7k too.
Obviously as long as the supply / demand thing works for them they'd be foolish to drop the price below $7K. But I'm pretty sure they're going to find a limited number of people willing to pay that price and they'll figure out how to make them in larger quantities soon enough.

In my particular case, I don't see any of the high end options being good enough to keep me happy for the long haul (say 10 years or so), so I decided to take advantage of the Tweeter liquidation sale and bought myself a WD-65835 (Diamond series) at a pretty healthy discount a few weeks ago - last new in the box one they had at any of the local stores. It'll do just fine for a few years or so until the market brings us some better options. I ended up giving away my 6 year old Mits Diamond Series WS-65909 on freecycle this past weekend - I couldn't even get a couple hundred bucks for it on Craig's list. Even for free, I only had a few interested people.

It seems as though some of the high end Plasmas have reached that perfect black level(at least in my eyes). Pioneer comes to mind, and some of the Panny Models. And now even the Samsung 950 Series LED LCDs is on the mark, and LaserVue seems to nailed it as well.

So at least we can say, LaserVue, Plasma and even the new LED LCDs( the new Samsung 950 series and the new Sony LEDs) have nailed down Blacks....So what does that leave us with. COLOR and MOTION. Plasmas and LCDs still arent there yet regarding that when compared to CRT. LaserVue on the other hand seems to better both when dealing with color. But does it rival them both when it comes to dealing with Motion?:confused:

As it stands(again)...I honestly dont feel i'll ever make the jump to HD untill Sammys or Sonys Larger sized OLEDS hit the market in 2011....we'll be seeing a 23" OLED this year apperantly and in 2010 a 42". but 2011 will be pumping out the larger displays....Anyways, does anybody here actually think these companies will come out with an LED LCD or plasma that can match CRT regarding motion and color?
I just dont want to settle for anything less performance wise while getting the obviouse HD, progressive, HDMI and widescreen benefits.
Honestly for now, i'd be extremely happy if i could get my hands on a 480p 40" Widescreen CRT.


It amazes me how finicky some people are about displays--Which is fine with me, I'm more that way with audio, but to pass up on HD entirely, with some of the incredible deals out there now, because this or that isn't perfect, blows my mind.

SD totally sucks, and so do tiny screens. Color me confused. Get a 61" LED or Bulb based DLP for about 12-1500 dollars to hold you over till your perfect 80" set arrives for under $500, sometime next century.

Trust me, you'll be glad you did. :)

It seems as though some of the high end Plasmas have reached that perfect black level(at least in my eyes). Pioneer comes to mind, and some of the Panny Models. And now even the Samsung 950 Series LED LCDs is on the mark, and LaserVue seems to nailed it as well.

So at least we can say, LaserVue, Plasma and even the new LED LCDs( the new Samsung 950 series and the new Sony LEDs) have nailed down Blacks....So what does that leave us with. COLOR and MOTION. Plasmas and LCDs still arent there yet regarding that when compared to CRT. LaserVue on the other hand seems to better both when dealing with color. But does it rival them both when it comes to dealing with Motion?:confused:

As it stands(again)...I honestly dont feel i'll ever make the jump to HD untill Sammys or Sonys Larger sized OLEDS hit the market in 2011....we'll be seeing a 23" OLED this year apperantly and in 2010 a 42". but 2011 will be pumping out the larger displays....Anyways, does anybody here actually think these companies will come out with an LED LCD or plasma that can match CRT regarding motion and color?
I just dont want to settle for anything less performance wise while getting the obviouse HD, progressive, HDMI and widescreen benefits.
Honestly for now, i'd be extremely happy if i could get my hands on a 480p 40" Widescreen CRT.

Wouldn't call anything nailed yet in terms of black level. (Maybe the latest Pioneers...)

Jumped to HD in 2001 starting with an FW900 CRT that my computer shared with a Dish 6000 HD receiver. So, I guess you can guess my position on whether you should make that jump... :)

All I was getting at was that when there's a less expensive option at the same screen size with better overall picture quality, why would anyone buy the more expensive option? It really doesn't matter how long each option has been out on the market or what prices they debuted at. What matters is the CURRENT price of each option.



Current selling price has a lot to do with product availability, how new and/or unique, etc. But yes, I understand where you're coming from and your peeve that this is a very expensive RPTV. I do not disagree with that either. For you and I, we will not be buying this TV... but IMHO, excessive is relative to who's buying it and whether or not Mitsubishi is being forced to move inventory or if inventory is flying off the shelves so to speak.

If you're going to be as fair as possible, you should limit your price shopping to the same environment. Why? Because if the LaserVue were available through mail order, I think we'd both agree it would be cheaper. Since it's only in brick and mortar stores, you should use brick and mortar stores of the other brands and sizes to gauge the relative excessiveness..... trying to compare brick and mortar pricing of the LaserVue against an online price for a particular TV isn't exactly a level playing field.

As to your comment about screen size, yes I am largely limiting my comments to the large (>60") screen sizes and do realize that some of the other high end options from Pioneer and Sony would cost even more than $7000 if they existed in larger screen sizes.

At 55", the Sony XBR8 is already selling at a current price of $7,000. Based on the price per inch, the Pioneer Elite 60" is more expensive than the 65" LaserVue.

My screen size comment was with respect to what appears to be your only basis for comparison of the HDTVs. I was mentioning there are other aspects of the LaserVue and its uniqueness that Mitsubishi's marketing department will play upon that drive up their asking price other than screen size. Case in point, a 50" Elite costs more than a regular 50" Kuros.

The only reason, IMHO, to get a LaserVue or other RPTV is to get a large screen.

That has historically always been the major selling point of all RPTVs. Largest size for cheapest price.

But, given that the Panasonic 65" can be had for around $5100, I see no compelling reason to pay $7000 for a LaserVue. My budget isn't really limited to anything in particular, but when I could get a Panasonic 65" plasma for ~$2k less than the LaserVue, I see no compelling reason to get the LaserVue given the feedback has been less than stellar so far (I don't know of any local dealer where I can go see one, so all I have to go by is the feedback here so far).

And again you limit your conclusion to one specific model. I'm just saying the Mitsubishi is not alone in the size + class for pricing. The current LaserVue is a Diamond. That's equivalent to Pioneer's Elite or Sony's XBR. I don't know what Panasonic's equivalent is. But the point is and I think has been for me is the major reason why a lot of people are having a hang up over the price is because it's a RPTV and fully expecting it to have pricing consistent with other RPTVs. Heck you can get a 73" Mitsubishi Diamond for $3,500 at Best Buy: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8886912&type=product&id=1215818957568

What's driving the price of the LaserVue is what makes it unique. For some people, they will pay top dollar for it and they have. I will not be one of those persons. But for now, the LaserVues are selling like hotcakes.... but there's only so many people with deep pockets or those with a willingness to finance this beast.


Obviously as long as the supply / demand thing works for them they'd be foolish to drop the price below $7K. But I'm pretty sure they're going to find a limited number of people willing to pay that price and they'll figure out how to make them in larger quantities soon enough.

My point exactly. And Mitsubishi isn't going to keep this series in the Diamond line much like how Sony didn't keep their SXRD's in the Qualia or XBR lines.

In my particular case, I don't see any of the high end options being good enough to keep me happy for the long haul (say 10 years or so), so I decided to take advantage of the Tweeter liquidation sale and bought myself a WD-65835 (Diamond series) at a pretty healthy discount a few weeks ago - last new in the box one they had at any of the local stores. It'll do just fine for a few years or so until the market brings us some better options. I ended up giving away my 6 year old Mits Diamond Series WS-65909 on freecycle this past weekend - I couldn't even get a couple hundred bucks for it on Craig's list. Even for free, I only had a few interested people.


Damn you! :) I would have been more than happy to have taken that off your hands. The HDMI spec already has support for 1440p. Get ready for the next 10 years.

We all have differing budgets. Mine is based on my belief that the 50" price range is the sweet spot. If I go from a $2k 50" to a $5k 65", will that extra 15" be bring me an additional $3k of happiness? Law of diminishing returns for me.

Can I get a larger HDTV? Sure I can, but I don't feel the extra money spent is worth the marginal step ups in screen size. Just my opinion.

We all have differing budgets. Mine is based on my belief that the 50" price range is the sweet spot. If I go from a $2k 50" to a $5k 65", will that extra 15" be bring me an additional $3k of happiness? Law of diminishing returns for me.

Can I get a larger HDTV? Sure I can, but I don't feel the extra money spent is worth the marginal step ups in screen size. Just my opinion.



Try living with a good 65” for a while and you will likely change your opinion. :D

[QUOTE=WaveBoy;15217831]It seems as though some of the high end Plasmas have reached that perfect black level(at least in my eyes). Pioneer comes to mind, and some of the Panny Models. And now even the Samsung 950 Series LED LCDs is on the mark, and LaserVue seems to nailed it as well.

I can only go by the Laservue I've seen with my own eyes, but that one didn't have a black level even close to the 9G Kuro. Closer, but not as good as the new 65" Panny either.

My Samsung HLS 6188 is far from perfect, but where it really falls down is with black. The Laservue is better than my Samsung, but not good enough. Once I saw black on a 9G Kuro it will be hard to accept less.

Try living with a good 65” for a while and you will likely change your opinion. :D

Hey, the bigger the better.... it's just my frugality and my unwillingness to play along with how a company's marketing department try to toy with my weaknesses. :p

It amazes me how finicky some people are about displays--Which is fine with me, I'm more that way with audio, but to pass up on HD entirely, with some of the incredible deals out there now, because this or that isn't perfect, blows my mind.

SD totally sucks, and so do tiny screens. Color me confused. Get a 61" LED or Bulb based DLP for about 12-1500 dollars to hold you over till your perfect 80" set arrives for under $500, sometime next century.

Trust me, you'll be glad you did. :)

SD doesn't suck. Infact, if you have one of the newest high end CRTs, like my Sony Wega 32" Trinitron for example, using component cables for the Wii, it looks fantastic...And of course you get flawless Color,Motion and Blacks because of the technology itself. And I mean i'm a retro gamer at heart, so i'm all for SD content, but i'd definitly have to be using component cables for sure....Composite is god awful...And if i have to use composite it's only going to be for the Original Nes on a smaller sized TV.

But ya, I'm just missing out on Progressive and Widescreen which sucks though. Anyways, as for screen size, i feel that 46" is perfect for what i want. Hell my cousin who installs TVs and so on can get me a deal on the latest and last line of JVC LCOS 1080p HDTVs. He tells me it blows away any Plasma or any LCD on the market and I've seen his(which is a 46") in person and i was really impressed.... even though i barely got a chance to mess with it. The colors were great, and the motion seemed better than any LCD i've seen. But the blacks on the other hand definitly could of been better. But i was just playing some of his 360 games, so i had no idea how movies looked and so on.

BUT, if i had to pick and buy any HDTV on the market, it would be that 46" LCOS(which is normally around $3500, but i can get it for $2500), or a 46" Panasonic 800u Plasma(still too expensive though) or even the Samsung 50" 550 Plasma....and forget Pioneer, too bloody expensive....and even with those white wash modes i still dont think playing games on a plasma is a great idea, but i could be wrong

SD doesn't suck. Infact, if you have one of the newest high end CRTs, like my Sony Wega 32" Trinitron for example, using component cables for the Wii, it looks fantastic...And of course you get flawless Color,Motion and Blacks because of the technology itself. And I mean i'm a retro gamer at heart, so i'm all for SD content, but i'd definitly have to be using component cables for sure....Composite is god awful...And if i have to use composite it's only going to be for the Original Nes on a smaller sized TV.

But ya, I'm just missing out on Progressive and Widescreen which sucks though. Anyways, as for screen size, i feel that 46" is perfect for what i want. Hell my cousin who installs TVs and so on can get me a deal on the latest and last line of JVC LCOS 1080p HDTVs. He tells me it blows away any Plasma or any LCD on the market and I've seen his(which is a 46") in person and i was really impressed.... even though i barely got a chance to mess with it. The colors were great, and the motion seemed better than any LCD i've seen. But the blacks on the other hand definitly could of been better. But i was just playing some of his 360 games, so i had no idea how movies looked and so on.

BUT, if i had to pick and buy any HDTV on the market, it would be that 46" LCOS(which is normally around $3500, but i can get it for $2500), or a 46" Panasonic 800u Plasma(still too expensive though) or even the Samsung 50" 550 Plasma....and forget Pioneer, too bloody expensive....and even with those white wash modes i still dont think playing games on a plasma is a great idea, but i could be wrong

Agree to the extent that a small high quality Trinitron probably can optimize the appearance of low quality source, but, for example, watch a Blu-Ray on even my now older S6767W DLP, which I got a huge discount on even back when I got it, and oh my...

You might want to find some reviews on that LCOS and get some independent perspectives. If I vaguely recall, they had their own issues just like everything else...

Agree to the extent that a small high quality Trinitron probably can optimize the appearance of low quality source, but, for example, watch a Blu-Ray on even my now older S6767W DLP, which I got a huge discount on even back when I got it, and oh my...

You might want to find some reviews on that LCOS and get some independent perspectives. If I vaguely recall, they had their own issues just like everything else...

The thing is, I cant find any reviews on the latest(and last) JVC Lcos sets, and not knowing the model number doesn't help either....and the fact that you cant buy these sets at Best Buy or Futureshop. Hell even JVC doesn't have them listed on their site ...Anyways, so what are the drawbacks of LCOS? from what i saw i wasn't exactly too impressed with the blacks

Well, here's an older review anyway:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/rearprojectiontvs/207rptvface/index.html

Well, here's an older review anyway:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/rearprojectiontvs/207rptvface/index.html

thanks, ya that's definitly a different model by the looks of it. Like i said, i wasn't impressed with the blacks on my cousins LCOS, and even though the motion was good, it wasn't CRT good...

Anyways, the spring HDTV line up should be interesting, but i have a feeling i wont be plunging into HD for a while, I know i'll be going OLED right away in 2010 when Samsung releases their 42" Model, or whenever a tech can match a crts motion and color before then.

As for now, the Panasonic 46" 1080p 800u would be a nice buy if i had the cash, but i dont want to drop $2699

thanks, ya that's definitly a different model by the looks of it. Like i said, i wasn't impressed with the blacks on my cousins LCOS, and even though the motion was good, it wasn't CRT good...

Anyways, the spring HDTV line up should be interesting, but i have a feeling i wont be plunging into HD for a while, I know i'll be going OLED right away in 2010 when Samsung releases their 42" Model, or whenever a tech can match a crts motion and color before then.

As for now, the Panasonic 46" 1080p 800u would be a nice buy if i had the cash, but i dont want to drop $2699

so your saying you don't even want to drop 1500 for a 61" sammy rptv...tahts what i did and its great until tech. improves in the next 5yrs or so...

But yes, I understand where you're coming from and your peeve that this is a very expensive RPTV. I do not disagree with that either. For you and I, we will not be buying this TV... but IMHO, excessive is relative to who's buying it and whether or not Mitsubishi is being forced to move inventory or if inventory is flying off the shelves so to speak.
For me, I don't really care if the TV is a flat panel or RPTV. What I care about is that the screen size is 65" or larger, that the picture quality is excellent, and that the price is commensurate with the level of performance. So expensive for a RPTV doesn't really matter - unfortunately, the LaserVue seems to be too expensive for the level of performance it gives.

If you're going to be as fair as possible, you should limit your price shopping to the same environment. Why? Because if the LaserVue were available through mail order, I think we'd both agree it would be cheaper. Since it's only in brick and mortar stores, you should use brick and mortar stores of the other brands and sizes to gauge the relative excessiveness..... trying to compare brick and mortar pricing of the LaserVue against an online price for a particular TV isn't exactly a level playing field.
I'm pretty sure I could get a discount on that Panasonic or the Pioneer Kuros at a B&M dealer. Probably not as steep a discount as online price, but still a better discount than the LaserVue for now.

My screen size comment was with respect to what appears to be your only basis for comparison of the HDTVs. I was mentioning there are other aspects of the LaserVue and its uniqueness that Mitsubishi's marketing department will play upon that drive up their asking price other than screen size. Case in point, a 50" Elite costs more than a regular 50" Kuros.
Marketing be damned - it's the actual quality of the picture that matters. I'm not sure where you're coming up with screen size as being my only basis for comparison. I would say that you can only come up with a fair way to compare the prices by adjusting the prices of TV's with smaller (or larger) screen sizes to a common screen size as prices almost always go up as screen size gets larger. I will NOT buy a TV with a screen size smaller than 65", so for me it doesn't really matter that the 60" Kuro costs more or less than the LaserVue or that Panasonic 65" plasma as I simply won't consider giving up those 5" of diagonal screen size (and something like 25% of screen surface area). Yes, I'm aware of those other options, but I'm not in the market for any of them.

That has historically always been the major selling point of all RPTVs. Largest size for cheapest price.
Right, but with some downsides such as off-axis viewing angles, geometry issues, etc.

And again you limit your conclusion to one specific model. I'm just saying the Mitsubishi is not alone in the size + class for pricing. The current LaserVue is a Diamond. That's equivalent to Pioneer's Elite or Sony's XBR. I don't know what Panasonic's equivalent is. But the point is and I think has been for me is the major reason why a lot of people are having a hang up over the price is because it's a RPTV and fully expecting it to have pricing consistent with other RPTVs.
I'm using that Panasonic plasma only as an example of why ~I~ wouldn't buy the LaserVue and that model is Panasonic's equivalent to Elite, XBR, and Diamond - it's Panasonic's best series. And like I said, I don't care if the LaserVue is a RPTV or not - the price doesn't make sense given the level of performance that's been reported so far.

But for now, the LaserVues are selling like hotcakes....
Like hotcakes??? There's one confirmed owner in this thread and everything I've heard suggests that there aren't very many of these out in the field yet which is part of the reason for the high price. Selling like hotcakes would imply that they're selling lots of them.

Damn you! :) I would have been more than happy to have taken that off your hands.
If you're in the Boston area, you certainly would have been welcome to it.

We all have differing budgets. Mine is based on my belief that the 50" price range is the sweet spot. If I go from a $2k 50" to a $5k 65", will that extra 15" be bring me an additional $3k of happiness? Law of diminishing returns for me.
But how about $1800 for a 65" Diamond series DLP? I think that will keep me happy at least for a few years - by then I suspect there will be some better options in the 65-73" size range.

Can I get a larger HDTV? Sure I can, but I don't feel the extra money spent is worth the marginal step ups in screen size. Just my opinion.
Well, I don't think going from 50" to 65" is a marginal step up in screen size, though it does depend on how far away you sit from the screen.

so your saying you don't even want to drop 1500 for a 61" sammy rptv...tahts what i did and its great until tech. improves in the next 5yrs or so...

I've heard that display doesn't have the greatest Viewing angles, and it's blacks could be better....and besides 61" is alittle too big for me. Sure its fantastic for movies and if you have the space, but an ideal size for me would be a 46"....

Like i said, if i 'had' to buy an HDTV now it would be a 42" Panasonic 800u 1080p Plasma....I'd rather have the 46", but the 800u line is too expensive as it is, but at least its not as expensive as Samsungs 950 LED LCD....Then there's also the Samsung PN50A550, which is said to be a really good set and a bang for the buck. but eh.

Also, for the hell of it, i kinda want to get the Samsung LN32A550 1080p LCD which is going for $849.99, not as my main set(which goes to my CRT) but as a computer monitor, and maybe some PS3, it would be sweet just to have....But then I ask myself, do i really need it.

61" is alittle too big for me. Sure its fantastic for movies and if you have the space, but an ideal size for me would be a 46.

Then you're wasting your time even thinking about LaserVue. Many would argue that they shouldn't have bothered with a 65", and that it probably won't start to be competitive until 73". I really doubt it's going to extend down in size.

Quote:
"We all have differing budgets. Mine is based on my belief that the 50" price range is the sweet spot. If I go from a $2k 50" to a $5k 65", will that extra 15" be bring me an additional $3k of happiness? Law of diminishing returns for me. "


But how about $1800 for a 65" Diamond series DLP? I think that will keep me happy at least for a few years - by then I suspect there will be some better options in the 65-73" size range.


Or a 67" Sammy HLN67A750.

FWIW

I went to the local electronics store that had one on display. The first thing I noticed and my girlfriend said aloud was "it makes me wanna puke". Those little LCD crystals or whatever makes the surface of DLP and this TV were EXTREMELY intensely shimmering/flickering/whatever you call it... Unlike regular 65735 DLP which flickering is not noticable when you step back a few feet, Laser's flickering remained constant even at 7+ feet away... and it was EXTREMELY uncomfortable to look at. It made me nauseous right away... The other thing I noticed was that it's not really thin, and one last thing - the picture quality wasn't all that great... actually it was not good at all, but maybe I expected too much from it... I actually didn't realize it was LaserVue, I just thought it was just some old bad TV until I looked at the sticker... I guess it wasn't calibrated well, or maybe the signal source was bad or something... again, FWIW

That's what I was saying, though you put it a bit more harshly. I and my director/videographer friend found the display overly intense or overwhelming in some way...it aave us visual fatigue.

I wanted to further comment on my response to the Laservue.

I mentioned the overall sense of the display being visually quite intense, and a bit visually fatiguing. But the display I saw did have its merits. The blacks were as good as the Samsung LN55 A950, the image was sharp, and the colors were...quite colorful. The display did convey the sense of being there.

Unfortunately the only DVD the salesman had was High School Musical, which to me was like a popcorn and plastic explosion of cartoon colors. I would have preferred to see the Departed, for example.

i think the units people see and say it is fatiguing do not have the transportation screws removed.
With those screws installed the picture gets screen crawl effect. once those are removed the picture becomes crystal clear and beautiful.

When in the hell will Mitsubishi send CNET a LaserVue to review?

I mean based on what people are saying, the Color makes every other display on the market look dull and bland, it also has inky blacks and i'm guessing great motion since its based on DLP Technology.

When in the hell will Mitsubishi send CNET a LaserVue to review?

I mean based on what people are saying, the Color makes every other display on the market look dull and bland, it also has inky blacks and i'm guessing great motion since its based on DLP Technology.

Are you sure ? Reading the posts from people who actually saw the set my conclusion is that they didn't like it very much. Vivid colors suggests "torch mode" to me.

When in the hell will Mitsubishi send CNET a LaserVue to review?

I mean based on what people are saying, the Color makes every other display on the market look dull and bland, it also has inky blacks and i'm guessing great motion since its based on DLP Technology.

Wish they would get one to CNET as well.

i think the units people see and say it is fatiguing do not have the transportation screws removed.
With those screws installed the picture gets screen crawl effect. once those are removed the picture becomes crystal clear and beautiful.

Because of your post I called the place where I'd seen the set. The gentleman told me that the transportation screws are removed as a matter of course on the display models, so my response to the Laservue was not based on that.

A valid point that can be made is that it's hard to see and compare sets in settings which are not controlled as in a test setting.

Wish they would get one to CNET as well.

CNET is peculiar in that regard. They haven't even reviewed the 73835 yet! I'd like to read some reviews on that set.

I still think that NEO PDP screens in large sizes are going to appear pretty soon.

I went by the Modia store here in Austin yesterday. They were sold out. Someone even bought the display model earlier. Apparently, they are quite popular.

Apparently, people think 65" is fine. Personally, I want a 96" 2:35/1 display. However, that's just me.

[QUOTE=allargon;15241451]I went by the Modia store here in Austin yesterday. They were sold out. Someone even bought the display model earlier. Apparently, they are quite popular.

Your really shouldn't spread information like this. How many have they sold, 2-3? Supplies of this set are going to be very tight for some time. I'm very skeptical that any dealer is going to get very many samples in the short term. Lets not jump the gun on popularity just yet.

CNET is peculiar in that regard. They haven't even reviewed the 73835 yet! I'd like to read some reviews on that set.

I still think that NEO PDP screens in large sizes are going to appear pretty soon.

First off, Cnet prefers Samsung and Sony. Just take a look at the majority of their reviews and that's pretty clear. Another thing that isn't very useful about their reviews is that unless it's in the user menu, they don't calibrate it. So if/when they do a review on the Laservue, it still won't be a legitimate review because they will not enter the service menu to adjust grayscale or color points. If you look at their review of the 65735, you'll see what I mean. They completely trash the set, but don't do anything to adjust it beyond what's in the user menu.

First off, Cnet prefers Samsung and Sony. Just take a look at the majority of their reviews and that's pretty clear. Another thing that isn't very useful about their reviews is that unless it's in the user menu, they don't calibrate it. So if/when they do a review on the Laservue, it still won't be a legitimate review because they will not enter the service menu to adjust grayscale or color points. If you look at their review of the 65735, you'll see what I mean. They completely trash the set, but don't do anything to adjust it beyond what's in the user menu.

Which in and of itself is a totally valid editorial approach. The set does not come with a free calibration bundled. To even buy an appropriate calibration is something that requires an extremely knowledgeable end user. Calibration should not be a must have, it should not be a requirement to make a new set useable for the average consumer. If CNET or other electronics journalism wants to beat Mitsubishi about the head, and Mitsubihsi contiues to be pigheaded, then 'cest la vie!

Which in and of itself is a totally valid editorial approach. The set does not come with a free calibration bundled. To even buy an appropriate calibration is something that requires an extremely knowledgeable end user. Calibration should not be a must have, it should not be a requirement to make a new set useable for the average consumer. If CNET or other electronics journalism wants to beat Mitsubishi about the head, and Mitsubihsi contiues to be pigheaded, then 'cest la vie!

Yes and no. Even though most sets come with grayscale adjustments, most end users don't have the know how or the equipment to do a proper grayscale adjustment whether it's in the user menu or not. CNET always adjusts grayscale on TVs that have it in the user menu using their calibration equipment. All I was trying to say is that if they are going to do a calibration on TVs they are reviewing for accuracy, they should do a calibration on all of them, not just ones in which the adjustments are in the user menu. That isn't a fair review. It doesn't compare apples to apples.

If they are going to stick to settings the normal user can make, then fine. Adjust color/tint/brightness/contrast. Those are things that a user can adjust with Avia or DVE. A normal user isn't going to understand or be able to adjust grayscale whether it's in the user menu or not. Adjust grays for all reviews or don't. Don't bias your review just because the gray adjustments are in the service menu.

Has anyone seen any good reviews of the 73835?

Has anyone seen any good reviews of the 73835?
There have been good reviews of the 65835, which ~should~ translate to good reviews of the 65835. Home Theater reviewed the 65835 and a 61" Samsung 650 series DLP in (I think the November 2008 issue). Overall, they liked the Mits better and it's now in their list of top picks (or whatever they call it) that they include near the back of each issue - FWIW the Samsung is not.

Loked for but couldn't find that review. Found one of another model...the Mitsubishi WD-65831.

Do you have a link?

That model has an altogether different setup...a 6 segment rather than the newer 5 Segment color wheel, and no 120 hz.

And I found this on HT.

Mitsubishi WD-57833 DLP RPTV

Still not comparable.

There have been good reviews of the 65835, which ~should~ translate to good reviews of the 65835.
Indeed they should. ;)

Do you have a link?
I believe he's talking about the review in the December issue. It's print only, no link. Perhaps they put it up on their site after the print issue is out of circulation?

There have been good reviews of the 65835, which ~should~ translate to good reviews of the 65835. Home Theater reviewed the 65835 and a 61" Samsung 650 series DLP in (I think the November 2008 issue). Overall, they liked the Mits better and it's now in their list of top picks (or whatever they call it) that they include near the back of each issue - FWIW the Samsung is not.

Shouldn't an apples to apples comparison been against Samsung's 7 series?

Well, the 650s are bulb based, while the 750s are LEDs, so it wouldn't really be apples to apples.

Well, the 650s are bulb based, while the 750s are LEDs, so it wouldn't really be apples to apples.

But the 650's are stripped down models this year. Should be based on price/performance regardless of tech...

But the 650's are stripped down models this year. Should be based on price/performance regardless of tech...

In what way? From what I've seen, they are the same with the exception of the light source. The overall features are the same between the two.

In what way? From what I've seen, they are the same with the exception of the light source. The overall features are the same between the two.

I'm presuming no irises in this years 6 series given the big downgrade in listed contrast ratio. (Dynamic contrast, but the iris is still key for manual light control as well.) But it doesn't matter, look at the prices of the two sets they should have compared:

[Removed Best Buy link...forget not allowed to post prices. Anyway, the Mits is way more than the Samsung LED model actually...]

Also, I think Mitsubishi is using DarkChip4 and Samsung DarkChip3 -- so the two each have a tech advantage versus the other. Take 'em both apart to make one that brings the whole package. Not counting lasers anyway...

If anyone has that Home Theater Review of December, could they scan a copy to the forum?

If anyone has that Home Theater Review of December, could they scan a copy to the forum?

I doubt that would fit the fair use exception in the copyright law...

Seriously? I'm amazed at that.

If that is true can anyon

If that is true can anyone summarize what they said?

The 650s have one glaring weakness, they have trouble producing dark blacks. If you take something like AVSHD 709 either AVC or HD and try to set digital 17 as the first visible grey you may very well find that below black is showing in the visible range, you almost certainly will find a significant amount of dithering noise on the display instead of it being black where it should.

I have fooled with 72A650 setting every which way and it still does it. This mean that there is almost differentiation between full black and shadow detail. I have had the set for a couple of weeks and probably have 220 hours on it and it is much better now than when it came out of the box. Straight out of the box if increased brightness enough to get a flashing bar at digital 18 then 16 and up would all be flashing.

When I first tried to run the default Movie mode settings digital 16 and below which should all be black were a very flickery grey making the whole screen a mess, now as the bulb has burned in a little it it much better. There should be several steps between below black level and a visible digital 17 not one click up on the brightness.

I almost wish my HD and Blue Ray players clipped brightness on the bottom so I could turn brightness up a little. Anyway I am hopeful I will get even a little more brightness roll off. I would really like to have the screen dark and no pixels flashing at digital 16, with digital 17 and above bright enough to be seen on real content.

I really disliked color problems of the Mits but it had no problem with making the screen good and black with a nice clearly visible flashing digital 17 on combo brightness, and contrast level screen in the AVS HD709 test patterns.

If anyone has that Home Theater Review of December, could they scan a copy to the forum?
I'm sure that Home Theater would love it if one person got a subscription and then posted scanned copies for everyone else to read for free.... I'm also pretty sure that the moderators would (and should) nuke such a post as soon as they saw it.

If that is true can anyone summarize what they said?
I already did post a summary in the relevant "'2008 Mitsubishi Owners Thread (735/736 and diamond)" thread which you can find in this (Rear Projection Units) forum where it would be much more appropriate to continue this discussion as it has nothing to do with LaserVue. In short, they liked the Mits. better than the Samsung, but neither is perfect. And I believe that Darin is correct - it was the December issue, not November. I'm sure the review will eventually show up on their web site, but they like to get people to buy the magazine before giving the reviews out for free.

You'll forgive me if I blundered into asking for the review. I certainly did not consider the copyright issues that you bring up. It was an innocent request for information in the context of a dearth of reviews on this device. To the uninitiated it's confusing that certain reviews are missing from a magazine's website, whereas the bulk of the reviews are there. My request for the review was a response to someone referring me to a review that I couldn't find.

I certainly don't mind looking at the other thread. Once again, because others on this thread have brought up different models, and comparisons have been made I didn't think I was doing anything inappropriate.

So it's off to the other thread for the 73835

After reading all the comments on this thread about the LaserVue and the bad mouthing of Mitzi (the company) and complaining about the price.... Guys chill out!!!

I've looked at a lot of TV's ... Plasma's, LCD's, RPTV's and the LaserVue... and in my opinion the LaserVue has them all beat... Period!

I sat in front of one tonight (Toton's TV - Crest Hill, IL) for about 2 hrs. and was able to talk the owner into turning down the lights and changing the Picture Mode from Brilliant to Bright to Natural...etc.... I'll tell you it was hard to tell them apart... the picture in all cases was sharp and beautiful (the source was in 1080P - demo loop)... however, my favorite is Brilliant because the colors especially WHITE just POP out (3 dimensional like), not to mention the RED's ... JUST FANTASTIC!!!

I plan on going back again at least once or twice a month... this time I will bring some of my DVD's with and take some notes and maybe a few pictures.

So, while I'm there I start pumping him for information. This is what I asked.

How many have you sold? He has sold out all three shipping allotments (he will not sell his demo)... he has over twenty on backorder (spoken for). By the way... the factory only puts out 30 units a day. Compare that to the over 1000 DLP/RPTV Mitzi puts out a day. He doesn't expect all his orders to be filled till March 09.

Now that brings me to the next Topic... When will the 73" be out? He says that the 73 was scheduled to be out in March. He was just informed last week that the release date has been pushed out three to six months.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: The factory will not say why... He said Mitzi is very close to the vest when it comes to information like price, reasons for delay etc. In fact, he said none of the dealers were told the price of the 65" until a week before the rollout. He expects the same for the 73".

Another little tidbit... He just got back from repair school for the LaserVue and he was amazed at the technology that goes into it... anyway he said they (Mitzi) have a torture room/bldg. that is at 140 degrees with dirt and dust and the like.... and that there are 15 LaserVue's running 24/7 for over a year now.... with NO FAILURES PERIOD. Quite impressive.

Bottom Line... the LaserVue is at the top of my list... a picture/photograph does not do it justice... YOU HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.:D

...Bottom Line... the LaserVue is at the top of my list... a picture/photograph does not do it justice... YOU HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.:D

Thanks for this Tron. Very enticing. But for us Canucks this raises the question - how the (bleep) do we get to see one? Anyone heard of a Canadian importer?

Bottom Line... the LaserVue is at the top of my list... a picture/photograph does not do it justice... YOU HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.:D

Tron - wanted to add my thanks as well. I still can't wait to see one of these for myself and am keeping an eye out for an appearance in the Madison WI area.

I also have the LaserVue at the top of my list, however it is way beyond the top of what I am willing to spend. I have a year or two in which to wait and see how the product shakes out (price & bug wise).

I have one year at the very least, two years if I can remain patient, so hopefully the technology will work out the kinks, manufacturing will ramp up, and prices will come down to something that I can afford. That said, I am not beyond looking at conventional and LED driven DLPs when my time comes to upgrade, I'm just hoping that the Laser technology will prove itself an affordable and quality option.

Regards,
Spence

This first generation Laservue can really be considered a novelty item. The real interesting thing to see will be the second generation sets that are intended to be mass produced and less expensive. They will likely still be more expensive than the lamp based DLPs, but far less than the first gen. There will be larger sizes (75" & 85") and likely some serious changes to the chassis design to reduce the weight and make the screen more serviceable. Don't expect them until late 2009.

[QUOTE=tron49;15259096]After reading all the comments on this thread about the LaserVue and the bad mouthing of Mitzi (the company) and complaining about the price.... Guys chill out!!!

I've looked at a lot of TV's ... Plasma's, LCD's, RPTV's and the LaserVue... and in my opinion the LaserVue has them all beat... Period!

I sat in front of one tonight (Toton's TV - Crest Hill, IL) for about 2 hrs. and was able to talk the owner into turning down the lights and changing the Picture Mode from Brilliant to Bright to Natural...etc.... I'll tell you it was hard to tell them apart... the picture in all cases was sharp and beautiful (the source was in 1080P - demo loop)... however, my favorite is Brilliant because the colors especially WHITE just POP out (3 dimensional like), not to mention the RED's ... JUST FANTASTIC!!!

The issue isn't whether or not the Laservue is an impressive set, the issue is at $7000 it does not represent good value. While I'm glad you liked the Brilliant setting, I prefer an accurate image as opposed to one that is pumped up to look extra bright and colorful. What you saw looks impressive and sells in the showroom, but it would be fatiguing to watch long term.

You need to see a Pioneer Elite 151 that has had a full ISF calibration. Or the 65" Panny 850 series. Both can be had for far less than the Mits and have an overall superior image. That said, the Laservue has some unique color options that might not be accurate, but they are impressive.

Here's hoping lcaillo is right. The first generation, and it's high price, represents a boutique product. Once they iron out any bugs and ramp up production, then we can cross our fingers for the bigger screens and falling prices many of us are looking for. And, speaking only for myself, a 9g Kuro black level.

I sent an email to the Mitsubishi regional sales manager and got the following reply :

"in regards to LasveVue this product is on temporary production hold until March"

No laser until March here in south Florida.

i sent an email to the mitsubishi regional sales manager and got the following reply :

"in regards to lasvevue this product is on temporary production hold until march"

no laser until march here in south florida.


doa

I sent an email to the Mitsubishi regional sales manager and got the following reply :

"in regards to LasveVue this product is on temporary production hold until March"

No laser until March here in south Florida.



Was that the 65" or only the 73" ?

Was that the 65" or only the 73" ?

The 65. I know the manager personally and didn't want to put him in a difficult position about the 73. I only asked him where I could see the 65 in south Florida and got that reply.

Now i know i sound like a broken record, but why exactly wont Mitsubish release smaller sizes sets? lets say 46" for example...I mean does Mitsubishi honestly think people whont buy them at that size when they can get a 46" 'flat panel' instead?....who cares if its not flat panel, it's all about the PQ...and hell LaserVue is not even that deep compared to a CRT.

All i know is, if Mitsu DID release a 46" model, i'd be down....but it's obviously looking very unlikely. Anyways, it will be interesting to see whats in store for the Spring 09' HDTV lineup as far as Plasma and LED LCDs go....but i'm alot more interested if Samsung really does start pumping OLED displays up to 42"(like they've said) in 2010...as far as i'm concered LCDs and PLasma are both flawed technologies and need to go.

LCDs and their motion problems, their artificial colors, and weak blacks(although Samsungs 950 series LED LCDs are an improvement but really expensive)....Then there's Plasma with how you have to baby them and break them in, worrying about burn-in, and their dirty yellow-grey whites and video noise....Sure Plasma is step up in terms of color(besides whites), motion and blacks when compared to LCD, but it's still no CRT and it has flaws just like LCD.

even when 2009's HDTV Spring lineup comes around, there's still going to be motion issues and inferior color with LED LCD and Plasma...Here's what i wonder, which technology has the greater and faster chance at delivering CRT PQ?

LED LCD or PLasma?

Now i know i sound like a broken record, but why exactly wont Mitsubish release smaller sizes sets? lets say 46" for example...I mean does Mitsubishi honestly think people whont buy them at that size when they can get a 46" 'flat panel' instead?....who cares if its not flat panel, it's all about the PQ...and hell LaserVue is not even that deep compared to a CRT.
It's extremely unlikely for the same reason that plasmas bottom out and LCD's take over at some point. The pricing of DLP's most likely wouldn't drop linearly with size so as you get smaller, the price advantage (DLP's biggest advantage, IMHO) goes away.

The 65. I know the manager personally and didn't want to put him in a difficult position about the 73. I only asked him where I could see the 65 in south Florida and got that reply.


Well that doesn't sound too good. I wonder is this because of "problems" with the sets and they need to fix them or that their whole marketing scheme (high end) for these products needs to be reevaluated, especially in the the light of the bad economy.

Time is running out on RP dlp sets. If at CES in January, 70" flat panel sets are announced at or near 10K and under, then RP LaserVue is done, unless Mitsubishi drastically lowers their price. In which case it may not be economically feasible for them to build these sets anymore.

Well that doesn't sound too good. I wonder is this because of "problems" with the sets and they need to fix them or that their whole marketing scheme (high end) for these products needs to be reevaluated, especially in the the light of the bad economy.

Time is running out on RP dlp sets. If at CES in January, 70" flat panel sets are announced at or near 10K and under, then RP LaserVue is done, unless Mitsubishi drastically lowers their price. In which case it may not be economically feasible for them to build these sets anymore.

My thinking is that with CES only a month away, the March date may be when they expect to have either the second generation beginning to ship, or manufacturing will be boosted for both the 65" and 73" models.

I will be keeping a 'hopeful' eye on reports from Mitsubishi at CES 2009!

Spence

This first generation Laservue can really be considered a novelty item. The real interesting thing to see will be the second generation sets that are intended to be mass produced and less expensive. They will likely still be more expensive than the lamp based DLPs, but far less than the first gen. There will be larger sizes (75" & 85") and likely some serious changes to the chassis design to reduce the weight and make the screen more serviceable. Don't expect them until late 2009.

I am very interested in a 2nd gen laservue but not until I read Icaillo's impression of them. Yes, my gut feel is he will gives an honest and thorough review. (At least I hope so :D)

I am very interested in a 2nd gen laservue but not until I read Icaillo's impression of them. Yes, my gut feel is he will gives an honest and thorough review. (At least I hope so :D)

While I have grown to have great respect for what Icaillo says, the closest he's come to telling us what he thinks of the Laservue is found in post #3017. He's given us a number of very astute tips about the business end of the product, and RPTV verses flat panels in general, but his personal opinion on the quality of its image remains a mystery.

I just hope that there is a second generation for him to comment on. If they can't use economy of scale to make margin at $3500, or less, for a 65" model, we won't see one.

Now i know i sound like a broken record, but why exactly wont Mitsubish release smaller sizes sets? lets say 46" for example...I mean does Mitsubishi honestly think people whont buy them at that size when they can get a 46" 'flat panel' instead?....who cares if its not flat panel, it's all about the PQ...and hell LaserVue is not even that deep compared to a CRT.

All i know is, if Mitsu DID release a 46" model, i'd be down....but it's obviously looking very unlikely. Anyways, it will be interesting to see whats in store for the Spring 09' HDTV lineup as far as Plasma and LED LCDs go....but i'm alot more interested if Samsung really does start pumping OLED displays up to 42"(like they've said) in 2010...as far as i'm concered LCDs and PLasma are both flawed technologies and need to go.

LCDs and their motion problems, their artificial colors, and weak blacks(although Samsungs 950 series LED LCDs are an improvement but really expensive)....Then there's Plasma with how you have to baby them and break them in, worrying about burn-in, and their dirty yellow-grey whites and video noise....Sure Plasma is step up in terms of color(besides whites), motion and blacks when compared to LCD, but it's still no CRT and it has flaws just like LCD.

even when 2009's HDTV Spring lineup comes around, there's still going to be motion issues and inferior color with LED LCD and Plasma...Here's what i wonder, which technology has the greater and faster chance at delivering CRT PQ?

LED LCD or PLasma?

you can get a very good 46" LCD now for ~1500. I don't think that's a price point Laservue wants to compete in. the price/size ratio favors flat panels as size decreases.

LCD and plasmas have their flaws, but so do RPTVs. the collective verdict of consumers is they rather put up with flat panels' flaws. for the average person, the main flaw of flat panels is the price, but that is being diminished each quarter.

While I have grown to have great respect for what Icaillo says, the closest he's come to telling us what he thinks of the Laservue is found in post #3017. He's given us a number of very astute tips about the business end of the product, and RPTV verses flat panels in general, but his personal opinion on the quality of its image remains a mystery.

I just hope that there is a second generation for him to comment on. If they can't use economy of scale to make margin at $3500, or less, for a 65" model, we won't see one.

One would assume he actually wants to see one before he comments on its VQ. :cool:

you can get a very good 46" LCD now for ~1500. I don't think that's a price point Laservue wants to compete in. the price/size ratio favors flat panels as size decreases.

LCD and plasmas have their flaws, but so do RPTVs. the collective verdict of consumers is they rather put up with flat panels' flaws. for the average person, the main flaw of flat panels is the price, but that is being diminished each quarter.

Actually, you can get a Samsung 40" 530 1080p LCD for $999 Canadian, but i'm wondering what exactly the difference is between it and the 550...It seems that it has a lower contrast ratio and no USB Flash. It would be sweet just to have for a display to mess with on the side and for gaming....but as a main TV, ya right:p

One would assume he actually wants to see one before he comments on its VQ. :cool:

And get a spectrophotometer on it...

I have said many times that we cannot conclude much until experienced calibrators get to play with them, and we can see first hand what it can do. I have tried to pass on info that I have confirmed or recieved from reliable sources. This is a first generation product that will be very limited in supply. There just have not been many serious attempts to calibrate and evaluate the set that I have heard of, and we have not seen them yet in this part of the country.

...While I'm sure they'll sell some sets, they are out of their mind introducing a RPTV, at this price... But, as a number of others have said, the technology may really be more applicable to FP.

Actually, and unfortunately, its really not applicable to FP. Directly viewing laser light at this intensity would cause instant, irreparable retinal damage. And unfortunately, in our litigious society, its not enough to just tell customers to not look into the lens.

My understanding is that there are not plans for home-use FP's using lasers, although it might make sense in a commercial theater where you have a slightly more controlled environment.

-Reid

Actually, and unfortunately, its really not applicable to FP. Directly viewing laser light at this intensity would cause instant, irreparable retinal damage.

I wouldn't be so sure. The only reason laser is hazardous is because the beam is so highly concentrated. Obviously, it's not any more once it leaves the projection system (if it were, it would project a dot, not a large image).

you can get a very good 46" LCD now for ~1500. I don't think that's a price point Laservue wants to compete in. the price/size ratio favors flat panels as size decreases.

why would someone pay $1500 for a 46" when they can get a 65" for the same or less?

I wouldn't be so sure. The only reason laser is hazardous is because the beam is so highly concentrated. Obviously, it's not any more once it leaves the projection system (if it were, it would project a dot, not a large image).
not necessarily true. It all depends on the power of the laser.
Sure if it is a class 1 or 2 laser then there is no hazzard.

A class 4 laser reflecting from a mirror (DMD chip) maintains it full power. Then it goes through (presuammably) some optical lens in which power remains constant. Then reflects off another mirror (talking rear projection TV) which keeps its power the same level.

So the class 4 laser is still a class 4 laser until it hits the back side of the screen.
In a front projector (if they are using class 4 laser) then it will never be anything lower than class 4, even when it hits the screen, the wall or your face.

Actually, the laser power is distibuted over the surface of the DMD, so it may be class 4 to start with but by the time it gets to the screen it is distributed considerably. It would still be very concentrated and dangerous coming out of the lens, no doubt about that. It is a problem that is very serious for RP, and I doubt that FP systems are going to be available to consumers any time soon. In fact, Mitsubishi considers the screen assembly to be a safety device and it is not field serviced on these sets. So if you break a screen, be prepared to ship the set back. These screens are far thicker than other RP systems, which is part of the weight, but I am sure you can damage them with the kind of abuse I have seen some sets get.

Actually, and unfortunately, its really not applicable to FP. Directly viewing laser light at this intensity would cause instant, irreparable retinal damage. ...

Lasers would be OK if the beam had sufficient width to cut the energy per unit of surface area down to safe levels. I'm not sure how the design would work so can't be sure if this would be met. It would obviously depend on how close the viewer is to the lens. But just the association with the word laser might prevent it from being marketed anyway.

why would someone pay $1500 for a 46" when they can get a 65" for the same or less?
Perhaps because they can't fit a 65" TV into the space they have for the TV or because they prefer the form factor of a flat panel over a DLP (for me the form factor doesn't really matter, but that's a big deal to a lot of people). But the main point is that the price of a smaller DLP isn't going to drop much as the screen size goes down while the prices of flat panels goes up fast (at least for now) as the size increases. Just look at the list prices for 65" plasmas and LCDs.

A class 4 laser reflecting from a mirror (DMD chip) maintains it full power.

As lcaillo has alluded, it does not maintain it's full intensity. It is first diffused across the entire face of the DMD. I'm sure they aren't able to perfectly shape the laser into the perfect size and rectangular shape of the active area... the active area probably sits within a circular illuminated area. I believe the diagonal size of current 960x1080 chips is 0.843 inches, so a circular beam would have to be at least that size in diameter to cover the entire surface. Let's be conservative and say it's an .85" diameter circular beam. And let's say a typical laser is 1mm in diameter. Using these numbers, the laser is already cut down to 0.2% of it's intensity by the time it reaches the DMD. Start spreading that out further to project to a screen, and it only goes further from there.

Or the simpler way to look at it... assuming a laser projector ultimately provides similar brightness of a lamp based projector, their light intensity at any given beam width is going to be the same. So the risk is the same. Conventional thoughts of lasers just don't apply as soon as they intercept the beam and diffuse it to cover the entire area of the DMD, not to mention the entire area of the screen.

...In a front projector (if they are using class 4 laser) then it will never be anything lower than class 4, even when it hits the screen, the wall or your face.

Hardly. Once it is spread over the room it loses power per surface area. It's not the "class" of laser. It's the number of photons per surface area. Please look up your basic optics.

Actually, the laser power is distibuted over the surface of the DMD, so it may be class 4 to start with but by the time it gets to the screen it is distributed considerably. It would still be very concentrated and dangerous coming out of the lens, no doubt about that. It is a problem that is very serious for RP, and I doubt that FP systems are going to be available to consumers any time soon. In fact, Mitsubishi considers the screen assembly to be a safety device and it is not field serviced on these sets. So if you break a screen, be prepared to ship the set back. These screens are far thicker than other RP systems, which is part of the weight, but I am sure you can damage them with the kind of abuse I have seen some sets get.

The screen is made of glass... that's why the weight has increased and why there is a lockdown system to ensure the screen does not move during shipment/and or movement.
By the way the laser is at the bottom of the screen and shoots upwards...

No, the screen is not made of glass, it is similar in material to other RP screens, only a lot thicker and with a much deeper cut and radical geometry on the fresnel lens. The locking system is because the screen floats and has two motors on it to cause it to orbit to eliminate speckle.

The locking system is because the screen floats and has two motors on it to cause it to orbit to eliminate speckle.


Seriously? :eek:

So much for simplified technology. :rolleyes:

why would someone pay $1500 for a 46" when they can get a 65" for the same or less?

you might as well ask why pay $7000 when you can pay $1500. people do. you may not agree with their reasons, but they have them.

The locking system is because the screen floats and has two motors on it to cause it to orbit to eliminate speckle.

So the earlier report on that is true. Wow. If that is what is needed to eliminate speckle, then honestly, I don't see why they bothered with lasers. May as welll have just worked on improving LED technology. That's just too complex, and it's only going to get worse as screen sizes get larger.

There are other potential solutions that they are working on for speckle, but it certainly is a problem. I can see dust in the light path being a real issue with these. I think the ultimate solution will be to control more diffusion before the DMD. My guess is that some different solution will be coming in the second generation sets.

I would hope so... when that information was posted earlier in the thread, I didn't believe it. It is just unbelievable to me that they would implement something so mechanical on such a large portion of a modern TV. That explains why they started off with the 65" in lieu of the 73". And why it's so heavy. For this to be competitive, they have to find another solution. That type of assembly doesn't lend itself to easy cost cutting, or reliability. NOW I understand why people complain about odd shimmering. To me, it seems that having laser speckle moved around would be just about as irritating as stationary speckle. This is crazy. CRAZY I tell ya.

I can understand how minute movement of the screen can help reduce speckle, but how can such a method not also degrade the picture clarity/resolution?

I mean if the light is purposely being scattered to reduce the speckle at the screen, would not the picture also suffer?

Spence

It is small imperfections, likely far smaller than the size of a pixel, that creates speckle. The screen's effect on the light is essentially uniform at the size of pixels.

How fast does it move?

I don't know, but assume it is faster than persistence of vision can accomodate in order to make the speckle unlikely to be noticed.

I don't know, but assume it is faster than persistence of vision can accomodate in order to make the speckle unlikely to be noticed.
So, more of a very subtle vibration then?

Interesting. A 'wobulating' screen!

No, the screen is not made of glass, it is similar in material to other RP screens, only a lot thicker and with a much deeper cut and radical geometry on the fresnel lens. The locking system is because the screen floats and has two motors on it to cause it to orbit to eliminate speckle.

This is what I heard from the owner at the Crest Hill store, who had just got back from Mitzi's technician repair school. Glass was the only medium that gave them the close tolerances that they needed. That's why it weighes 15 to 20 lbs more.

Hardly. Once it is spread over the room it loses power per surface area. It's not the "class" of laser. It's the number of photons per surface area. Please look up your basic optics.

Well, I'll admit that I know next to nothing about the physics of optics. But I do know the people who build light engines.

Consider the scenario: your projector sits on your coffee table. Your 3-year old toddles past it, 2 feet away. They don't have to be looking at the lens - any light, at that intensity, that enters your eye peripherally will do some damage. Cumulatively, over time (or during a single movie, for that matter, where they wander past the projector say, oh, 30 or 40 times) you have the potential for severe permanent damage. I don't know about your kids, but mine love to stand in front of the screen and look at the pretty bright light.

Earlier someone mentioned it might be simply fear of marketing lasers. That may well be the case. Either way, my understanding is that there are currently no plans for laser-based FP products for home use, for safety reasons. And its a bummer.

-Reid

Hardly. Once it is spread over the room it loses power per surface area. It's not the "class" of laser. It's the number of photons per surface area. Please look up your basic optics.
lasers reflect off of disffused surfaces but there is a drop in power.
That drop may not be enough to reduce the laser to safe levels.

The number of photons per surface area is what? Directly proportional to the power?

I think you guys are making big assumptions about the power output of the lasers being benign.

wait, so the entire 65" diagonal screen is constantly moving? can you feel/hear any vibration/humming if you put your hand/ear to the set?

and this is just to reduce speckle or is it to make the laser safe for the human eye also? what if the screen malfunctions? will the set become unsafe to use, and how will you know it aside from "a sudden loss of vision", as they say in the Viagra ads?

this seems like a big stumbling block for FP, b/c I'm sure if they'd been able to come up with any other solution, they'd've used it instead of something so complicated. this helps explain the price tag.

but maybe this is what gives laservue its unique visual properties. if you diffuse the light beforw it hits the dmd, then maybe it'll end up looking more like a bulb based set.

The number of photons per surface area is what? Directly proportional to the power?

I think you guys are making big assumptions about the power output of the lasers being benign.

But as you just pointed out, it's not the power output, it's the power output divided by the surface area. The whole issue with lasers is they are not divergent beams like virtually all ofther light sources. All their power is packed into a fine point, and it stays that way. But they are somehow diverging the beam before it even gets to the DMD, so the typical laser concerns don't apply.

I sent an email to the Mitsubishi regional sales manager and got the following reply :

"in regards to LasveVue this product is on temporary production hold until March"

No laser until March here in south Florida.

If you use their website, it appears there are no LaserVue's further south than Virginia (including Charlotte and Atlanta....all the way down to Miami) and most likely none West until you hit Texas.

It seems they must have made a decision to not distribute the units in the SouthEast.

Now i know i sound like a broken record, but why exactly wont Mitsubish release smaller sizes sets? lets say 46" for example...I mean does Mitsubishi honestly think people whont buy them at that size when they can get a 46" 'flat panel' instead?....who cares if its not flat panel, it's all about the PQ...and hell LaserVue is not even that deep compared to a CRT.

All i know is, if Mitsu DID release a 46" model, i'd be down....but it's obviously looking very unlikely. Anyways, it will be interesting to see whats in store for the Spring 09' HDTV lineup as far as Plasma and LED LCDs go....but i'm alot more interested if Samsung really does start pumping OLED displays up to 42"(like they've said) in 2010...as far as i'm concered LCDs and PLasma are both flawed technologies and need to go.

LCDs and their motion problems, their artificial colors, and weak blacks(although Samsungs 950 series LED LCDs are an improvement but really expensive)....Then there's Plasma with how you have to baby them and break them in, worrying about burn-in, and their dirty yellow-grey whites and video noise....Sure Plasma is step up in terms of color(besides whites), motion and blacks when compared to LCD, but it's still no CRT and it has flaws just like LCD.

even when 2009's HDTV Spring lineup comes around, there's still going to be motion issues and inferior color with LED LCD and Plasma...Here's what i wonder, which technology has the greater and faster chance at delivering CRT PQ?

LED LCD or PLasma?


You would pay, say $5k for a 46"? I suspect you would be in the minority.

A month or so ago I posted concerning the motion of the screen in the Laservue and was met with scepticism and disbelief. But it was what I was told by someone up the chain at Mits. Moreover the beam is considered dangerous enough that (even after being diffused internally) a broken screen will shut down the system automatically in order to prevent the user from looking at the lasers.

The way it was explained to me, the motion of the screen was not just for speckling but was part of the system for rendering the laser light completely harmless. The other precautionary technologies were, I was told, proprietary.

The problem with FPs and lasers is that it would be too easy to look back occasionally at the projector lens in a home environment. Of course looking at the lens of a FP can be hazardous with any high intensity source. As a matter of fact many of the headlights used in cars nowadays are truly bad for the eyes.

Moreover the beam is considered dangerous enough that (even after being diffused internally) a broken screen will shut down the system automatically in order to prevent the user from looking at the lasers.

The way it was explained to me, the motion of the screen was not just for speckling but was part of the system for rendering the laser light completely harmless. The other precautionary technologies were, I was told, proprietary.

1) A broken screen will not shutoff the TV. Their owners guide states NOT to use the TV if the screen is damaged due to laser hazzard

2) The moving screen has nothing to do with making the TV safe. As proof of these you can think about the transportation screws. They are in place to stop the screen from moving and becoming damaged during transportation. The TV will still operate with those screws installed. Nothing to do with saftey and only to reduce glitter and crawl.

You would pay, say $5k for a 46"? I suspect you would be in the minority.

The Most I'd spend on a 46" would be $3k , anything over simply isn't worth it imo... i dont care how great it is, or if the TV can shoot freakin' laserbeams.

You may be quite right, but the gentleman I spoke with at corporate Mits. specifically told me about both safety features...the moving screen and an automatic shutoff if either the screen or the cabinet integrity are compromised.

Just because, as an added precaution, Mits. tells you not to operate the device if compromised, this does not mean that the safety shutoff is not in place. Sounds to me like redundancy related to liability issues.

I read the downloadable manual some time ago. That's where I found out that the device contains both Class 1 and Class 4 lasers, in contrast to one poster's assertion that it was solely a Class 1 device.

With regard to PQ on the Laservue although I found it a bit overwhelming visually, I suspect that the set I saw did not have the benefit of a full calibration. It would be hard to assess what the Laservue can really do without a good calibration.

...I think you guys are making big assumptions about the power output of the lasers being benign.

No one who has seen a Laservue has complained it was uncomfortably bright. Light is light. If a photon from a hot lamp or LED does not damage your eyes neither will a photon from a laser.

No one who has seen a Laservue has complained it was uncomfortably bright. Light is light. If a photon from a hot lamp or LED does not damage your eyes neither will a photon from a laser.
As taichi4 mentioned above the TV includes a class 4 laser. Which means at minimum it outputs at least 500mW (0.5W) of power.

A class 4 laser output could be 50W or 1000W.

Any laser more than 50mW (0.05W) has the potential to damage your retina.

LASER is much different than LED or normal light. It is focused coherent light.

You may want to familiarize yourself with the aspects of laser saftey:
http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#3

...It is focused coherent light....

It is NOT after it leaves the screen.

This silly conversation reminds me of trying to explain to uneducated people why perpetual motion is impossible. I give up.

You may want to familiarize yourself with the aspects of laser saftey:
http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#3
You may want to read section V, sub-section C, which talks about laser hazard computations, particularly the parts about Nominal Hazard Zones. Some of the factors that come in to play are power, beam diameter and beam divergence. Is it still a "beam" if it diverges out at relatively wide angles? Want to calculate the "beam" diameter coming out of a 65" set? It was mentioned earlier that the Laservue contains both class 1 and class 4 lasers. Although I don't know, I doubt the lasers themselves have different classifications. The lasers are probably class 4. I wouldn't be surprised if the classification changed depending on what part of the set we are talking about. After the laser light leaves an area where the beam becomes diffused, it may be downgraded to class 1.

It is NOT after it leaves the screen.

This silly conversation reminds me of trying to explain to uneducated people why perpetual motion is impossible. I give up.
it is NOT laser after it leaves the screen.

I guess we were somehow talking about 2 different things. I am refering to the laser inside of the TV. not the light outside of the TV.

You may want to read section V, sub-section C, which talks about laser hazard computations, particularly the parts about Nominal Hazard Zones. Some of the factors that come in to play are power, beam diameter and beam divergence. Is it still a "beam" if it diverges out at relatively wide angles? Want to calculate the "beam" diameter coming out of a 65" set? It was mentioned earlier that the Laservue contains both class 1 and class 4 lasers. Although I don't know, I doubt the lasers themselves have different classifications. The lasers are probably class 4. I wouldn't be surprised if the classification changed depending on what part of the set we are talking about. After the laser light leaves an area where the beam becomes diffused, it may be downgraded to class 1.
Darin your understanding is correct. However, the area on the other side of the screen is still class 4.
It's all explained in the laservue service training material.

You may be quite right, but the gentleman I spoke with at corporate Mits. specifically told me about both safety features...the moving screen and an automatic shutoff if either the screen or the cabinet integrity are compromised.

Just because, as an added precaution, Mits. tells you not to operate the device if compromised, this does not mean that the safety shutoff is not in place. Sounds to me like redundancy related to liability issues.

I read the downloadable manual some time ago. That's where I found out that the device contains both Class 1 and Class 4 lasers, in contrast to one poster's assertion that it was solely a Class 1 device.

With regard to PQ on the Laservue although I found it a bit overwhelming visually, I suspect that the set I saw did not have the benefit of a full calibration. It would be hard to assess what the Laservue can really do without a good calibration.

The set does not contain both class 1 and class 4 lasers. The complete set, with the cabinet sealed as designed and operated as designed is a class 1 device. A class 1 device may contain higher class lasers, as does this set contain class 4 lasers. The set is not to be operated when any part is removed that could possibly expose a user or tech to a higher class laser.

This is what I heard from the owner at the Crest Hill store, who had just got back from Mitzi's technician repair school. Glass was the only medium that gave them the close tolerances that they needed. That's why it weighes 15 to 20 lbs more.

I was told by the trainer specifically that the screen was not glass. The rear lens is a very deep cut radical geometry fresnel lens made of the simlar material as other fresnel lenses in RP systems, and with the center of the cut actually below the bottom of the screen.

wait, so the entire 65" diagonal screen is constantly moving? can you feel/hear any vibration/humming if you put your hand/ear to the set?

and this is just to reduce speckle or is it to make the laser safe for the human eye also? what if the screen malfunctions? will the set become unsafe to use, and how will you know it aside from "a sudden loss of vision", as they say in the Viagra ads?

this seems like a big stumbling block for FP, b/c I'm sure if they'd been able to come up with any other solution, they'd've used it instead of something so complicated. this helps explain the price tag.

but maybe this is what gives laservue its unique visual properties. if you diffuse the light beforw it hits the dmd, then maybe it'll end up looking more like a bulb based set.

If the screen malfunctions, you would see speckle but not be harmed in any way. The set would need to go back to Mitsubishi for repair because the screen assembly, including the motors, is not field serviceable nor replaceable. I would not suggest throwing any wii remotes in its direction.

The advantage of the lasers in terms of focus at the screen is that coherent light has a virtually infinite focal range. This allows the use of pretty radical geometries in the light path (and they are radical, I have seen the parts). I am sure that some dispersion and diffusion can be accomplished an still maintain much of this advantage, as even lamp based systems have pretty good focus at the screen. I suspect that the degree of diffusion can be carefully controlled to optimize the focus and minimize speckle while minimizing the dangers of coherence. It may take some time to work out the kinks.