If the screen malfunctions, you would see speckle but not be harmed in any way. The set would need to go back to Mitsubishi for repair because the screen assembly, including the motors, is not field serviceable nor replaceable. I would not suggest throwing any wii remotes in its direction.

The advantage of the lasers in terms of focus at the screen is that coherent light has a virtually infinite focal range. This allows the use of pretty radical geometries in the light path (and they are radical, I have seen the parts). I am sure that some dispersion and diffusion can be accomplished an still maintain much of this advantage, as even lamp based systems have pretty good focus at the screen. I suspect that the degree of diffusion can be carefully controlled to optimize the focus and minimize speckle while minimizing the dangers of coherence. It may take some time to work out the kinks.
Icaillo:
I think what you have said about the focal range and the "radical geometry" is very interesting and right on the point. This could permit some very thin cabinet depths for very large screen models, all without introducing focal distortion. In other words, perfectly sharp throughout the field.

I hate to say it, but this set is starting to look like the turkey of the year.

Too bad, really. Maybe they'll get it together.

But really, vibrating screens?

DLP or Dithered Light Producer with wobulation, poor contrast ratio, over blown color and a vibrating screen, great.

Sorry Mitsubishi not interested.

DLP or Dithered Light Producer with wobulation, poor contrast ratio, over blown color and a vibrating screen, great.

Sorry Mitsubishi not interested.
I wouldn't say upon looking at the Laservue that poor contrast was an issue at all. The contrast appeared very high, with deep blacks. Also the image was quite sharp. It was just visually a bit intense.

I hate to say it, but this set is starting to look like the turkey of the year.

Too bad, really. Maybe they'll get it together.

But really, vibrating screens?

I finally got to view a Laservue set and was totally underwhelmed. Anyone paying 7k for this set might want to buy an old Betamax sitting in my cousins garage. GOBBLE,GOBBLE:rolleyes:

I wouldn't say upon looking at the Laservue that poor contrast was an issue at all. The contrast appeared very high, with deep blacks. Also the image was quite sharp. It was just visually a bit intense.

Of course it did, on your preferred "Brilliant" setting. The contrast ratio of this set is really sort of misleading. You can have good contrast ratio, with an average black level, if the white level is high enough.

I viewed a Laservue today at a local furniture store here in OKC. The color pop is very good as well as the viewing angles. The one thing I did notice, was horrible motion blur. I don't know if that was the store feed or what, but there were several Mitsu DLP sets right next to it (73835, 65736 and 60735) and none of them had this blur. I don't know the connections that were used because it was so close to the other sets, I couldn't peak around the back of the set but the blur reminded me of a bargain basement LCD set 2 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, the picture looked good except for the blur. Maybe it's my intermediate eyes but the DLP sets next to it looked just as good when not viewing at an extreme angle. The Laservue had a slight edge in color pop but that's it. I just don't know if they will catch on or not. For $7K, that's an awful lot of money that could be better spent on the Panny 65" plasma. If they come down substantially in price, then Mitsu may have a competitor.

Of course it did, on your preferred "Brilliant" setting. The contrast ratio of this set is really sort of misleading. You can have good contrast ratio, with an average black level, if the white level is high enough.
No. I'm pretty sure that the Laservue was set to non-brilliant. Normal. I asked the salesman to set to normal for both the Laservue and the 73835.

No. I'm pretty sure that the Laservue was set to non-brilliant. Normal. I asked the salesman to set to normal for both the Laservue and the 73835.
Also I experienced high contrast and deep blacks.

DLP or Dithered Light Producer with wobulation, poor contrast ratio, over blown color and a vibrating screen, great.

Sorry Mitsubishi not interested.

I very much think DLP is one of the brighter spots in this somewhat dismal era of CRT's premature demise...

(Though a big part of that is being able to get a large, quality, display, for less money, so I guess I also won't be running out to get a LaserView anytime soon...)

I viewed a Laservue today at a local furniture store here in OKC.
So Laservue isn't available anywhere in the Southeast, not even boutique a/v shops in Atlanta or Miami, but they're sitting in furniture stores in Oklahoma City? :confused:

Mitsubishi cannot come up with sensible policies with regard to calibration support, which involves technical folks. The marketing people repeatedly come up with luaghable nonsense for packaging and hyped up feature sets. Their accounting people cannot even balance a parts account or keep track of credits and invoices. One part of the company has no idea what others are doing and they often can't talk to each other. What makes you think that they can come up with a logical roll out for a new product?

I finally got to view a Laservue set and was totally underwhelmed. Anyone paying 7k for this set might want to buy an old Betamax sitting in my cousins garage. GOBBLE,GOBBLE:rolleyes:

Was going to reply: a superior piece of tech that lost the marketing war? But I guess I can't because I just read that Betamax originally only held 60 minutes -- not enough for a movie...

(Maybe Sony took a lesson from that when it came to Blu-Ray...)

Also I experienced high contrast and deep blacks.

Deep blacks as compared to what? I've seen this set right next to the Elite 151 and the black level wasn't even close. Wait until a review of this set comes out. You won't see a black level of .001, I guarantee it.

SOUND & VISION will review the Laser-Vue in there JAN-FEB, issue

Deep blacks as compared to what? I've seen this set right next to the Elite 151 and the black level wasn't even close. Wait until a review of this set comes out. You won't see a black level of .001, I guarantee it.
I wasn't doing an A/B. I sat and watched a number of sets. As I said earlier I found the 73835 more comfortable to watch than the Laservue, but the Laservue's blacks were black as far as I could tell...certainly darker than the blacks on the 73835.

I also said, many posts ago that I found the Samsung LN55A90 to be more "present" than virtually anything I'd seen, with amazing brightness, contrast and jet blacks.

I'm just looking, like virtually everybody else, for a big screen with the best PQ I can find. I have no axes to grind, or agendas.

My feeling mirrors Icaillo's that the next generation could be very promising, particularly if they use the technology to provide truly big, thin displays.

So Laservue isn't available anywhere in the Southeast, not even boutique a/v shops in Atlanta or Miami, but they're sitting in furniture stores in Oklahoma City? :confused:

Well, this particular furniture store (Mathis Bros.) is extremely popular here and a ton of people drive in from out of state mainly Texas. Also, Mathis Bros. is one of the few places the actual Mitsubishi traveling showroom (a glorified semi trailer) visits each year. It's unreal how much business they do on any day of the week. I would imagine it probably has to do with how much Mitsu product they move.

I just saw the Laservue at Anderson's TV in the San Jose, CA area.

The colors were pretty but the fact it offset every other line by half a pixel in a lame attempt to avoid screendoor effect make this set a non starter. Basically any vertical edge has nasty jaggies on it that reminded me of dot crawl on old composite video monitors (except it only 'crawled' during motion.)

To see why I say screendoor just turn your head 45 degrees and look at the screen and it will remind you of a mid 90s 480p LCD (with higher resolution of course)

I'll wait to check the second gen...

I just saw the Laservue at Anderson's TV in the San Jose, CA area.

The colors were pretty but the fact it offset every other line by half a pixel in a lame attempt to avoid screendoor effect make this set a non starter. Basically any vertical edge has nasty jaggies on it that reminded me of dot crawl on old composite video monitors (except it only 'crawled' during motion.)

To see why I say screendoor just turn your head 45 degrees and look at the screen and it will remind you of a mid 90s 480p LCD (with higher resolution of course)

I'll wait to check the second gen...

This sounds like bad source, not the TV.

Well, this particular furniture store (Mathis Bros.) is extremely popular here and those that travel in from out of state mainly Texas. Also, Mathis Bros. is one of the few places the actual Mitsubishi traveling showroom (a glorified semi trailer) visits each year. It's unreal how much business they do on any day of the week. I would imagine it probably has to do with how much Mitsu product they move.

Yeah, I figured it had to be Mathis Bros. They sell a lot of Sony TVs, too, and have at least two huge stores in Southern California.

Surprisingly, their sales staff was really knowledgeable too. As much as I hate that place mainly due to always having to fight the crowds, it is hard to beat their prices. Also, my wife loves their gift gallery unfortunately.

Ok, well we don't really have any stores like that around here... furniture is furniture, and a/v is a/v (with the exception of places like Sears). I consider a $7,000 TV to be a higher end botique type product, so it just seemed odd to me that you have them in "furnture" stores. I wouldn't even expect to find these in places like Best Buy, except for the ones that have the integral Magnolia.

You'd believe it if you ever got the chance to visit the store. That's why they are so popular as they have furniture as cheap as dirt all the way to several thousands of dollars for each piece. They cater to everyone it seems and the store itself, is two stories and is probably the size of a large Walmart supercenter. Heck, they have their own staffed warehouse that has over 28 bays for customer pick up and probably 100 guys at any one time working just to load customer's vehicles up.

The online Mathis Brothers website seems pretty non-functional. Saw a link on a cached page for Home Entertainment. Wonder what their price is on bulb DLP Mits. sets. Hmm.

I wouldn't say upon looking at the Laservue that poor contrast was an issue at all. The contrast appeared very high, with deep blacks. Also the image was quite sharp. It was just visually a bit intense.

To judge black level you need a dim or dark room and video source showing a dark/night/space scene, there must be no bright content on screen at the same time or the iris in your eyes will close down and not allow you to see the real black level.

The limiting factor for the Laserview is the native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

there must be no bright content on screen at the same time or the iris in your eyes will close down and not allow you to see the real black level.

The limiting factor for the Laserview is the native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

But in this situation, they have the opportunity to reduce the laser output to 0, providing perfect black level. The ANSI contrast ratio is going to be limited by the native contrast ratio of the DLP. But the advantage that LED and laser based designs have is they can be pulsed so fast that the light engine can dynamically vary it's output on a frame by frame basis. I don't kow that they DO do that, but that is the theoretical advantage they have.

You'd believe it if you ever got the chance to visit the store. That's why they are so popular as they have furniture as cheap as dirt all the way to several thousands of dollars for each piece. They cater to everyone it seems and the store itself, is two stories and is probably the size of a large Walmart supercenter. Heck, they have their own staffed warehouse that has over 28 bays for customer pick up and probably 100 guys at any one time working just to load customer's vehicles up.
Sounds a lot like the Jordan's Furniture stores we have in the Boston area. Huge stores with super cheap to super expensive furniture and really nice IMAX theaters in 2 of their stores. I don't believe Jordan's sells any audio/video equipment though.

But in this situation, they have the opportunity to reduce the laser output to 0, providing perfect black level. The ANSI contrast ratio is going to be limited by the native contrast ratio of the DLP. But the advantage that LED and laser based designs have is they can be pulsed so fast that the light engine can dynamically vary it's output on a frame by frame basis. I don't kow that they DO do that, but that is the theoretical advantage they have.

This would also apply to LED-DLP. In fact almost everything that applies to Laser applies to LED, except the price, LED DLP is MUCH less expensive.

Native contrast matters a lot more to me than dynamic contrast. Relying on some scene analysis to decide when to pump up and down the backlight level has never struck me as a good idea.

To judge black level you need a dim or dark room and video source showing a dark/night/space scene, there must be no bright content on screen at the same time or the iris in your eyes will close down and not allow you to see the real black level.

The limiting factor for the Laserview is the native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

What are the native, on/off, contrast ratios for Dark Chip 3 and 4? (For 3, I guess it's 2500 to 1, given Samsung's Series 6...)

(I remember Home Theater Magazine found an older Samsung S...W DLP had a checkerboard contrast rating of over 500:1, which I thought was a pretty impressive result for such an internally open design...)

What are the native, on/off, contrast ratios for Dark Chip 3 and 4? (For 3, I guess it's 2500 to 1, given Samsung's Series 6...)

(I remember Home Theater Magazine found an older Samsung S...W DLP had a checkerboard contrast rating of over 500:1, which I thought was a pretty impressive result for such an internally open design...)
TI announces new DarkChip 4 for DLP products

Press release, September 7; Emily Chuang, DIGITIMES [Friday 7 September 2007]

Texas Instruments (TI) recently announced the introduction of a new chipset, the DarkChip 4, for DLP (digitial light processing) products. The new chipset is reported to deliver up to a 30% increase in native contrast ratio depending upon the application. The new DarkChip 4 will be available in a number of products in 2008.

All DLP product lines, including DLP HDTVs, DLP 1-chip projectors and DLP 3-chip projectors currently feature products with various chipset iterations of DarkChip technology.

DLP uses a streamlined optical system that efficiently reflects light to the screen, resulting in crisper whites, ultra-rich blacks and images that "pop" on-screen, according to TI. DLP-based products are known for their native contrast ratio levels, which ultimately sets minimum product contrast ratio level for all scene content. Native contrast ratio also sets the "black level" of the system.

TI is demonstrating the capabilities of the new chipset during the CEDIA EXPO 2007 (at booth 620) in the US. The DLP DarkChip 4 Theater featuring the new chipset produces trillions of colors combined with a native contrast ratio of 15,000:1. Additionally, there is a demonstration of a DLP HDTV with DarkChip 4 and LED illumination with a native contrast performance beyond 100,000 to 1.

SOUND & VISION will review the Laser-Vue in there JAN-FEB, issue


Wonder if they will actually send the set to the reviewer as they have promised to do this year, but at the last minute making the reviewers all come to California to review the set in their office under their watch.

But in this situation, they have the opportunity to reduce the laser output to 0, providing perfect black level. The ANSI contrast ratio is going to be limited by the native contrast ratio of the DLP. But the advantage that LED and laser based designs have is they can be pulsed so fast that the light engine can dynamically vary it's output on a frame by frame basis. I don't kow that they DO do that, but that is the theoretical advantage they have.

Unless you are looking at a full black screen with not even one pixel illuminated the lasers must stay on, so you are looking at the native contrast ratio of the DLP almost all the time. Dimming the lasers is not significantly different to a dynamic iris on a lamp based set. Dimming is scene based, so the ability to do frame by frame dimming is of little practical value, it would likely cause flicker problems as well.

A local LED backlit LCD panel can illuminate only the area of the screen required and leave the rest black, can’t do that with DLP.

TI announces new DarkChip 4 for DLP products

Press release, September 7; Emily Chuang, DIGITIMES [Friday 7 September 2007]

Texas Instruments (TI) recently announced the introduction of a new chipset, the DarkChip 4, for DLP (digitial light processing) products. The new chipset is reported to deliver up to a 30% increase in native contrast ratio depending upon the application. The new DarkChip 4 will be available in a number of products in 2008.



A 30% improvement over Dark Chip 3 is nothing special. The best native contrast ratio I have seen for a DLP projector is around 5000:1, and that’s for projectors costing considerably more then the Laserview.
Even if Laserview can double that its a long way from good enough for anyone who wants real blacks and not even close to a G9 Kuro Plasma.

DLP or Dithered Light Producer with wobulation, poor contrast ratio, over blown color and a vibrating screen, great.

Sorry Mitsubishi not interested.

Close, but it's Digital Light Processor / Processing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLP

Unless you are looking at a full black screen with not even one pixel illuminated the lasers must stay on, so you are looking at the native contrast ratio of the DLP almost all the time. Dimming the lasers is not significantly different to a dynamic iris on a lamp based set. Dimming is scene based, so the ability to do frame by frame dimming is of little practical value, it would likely cause flicker problems as well.

A local LED backlit LCD panel can illuminate only the area of the screen required and leave the rest black, can’t do that with DLP.
The lasers can be shut off completely, not just dimmed, if I'm not mistaken.

If it truly has motors physically moving a screen layer, I wonder at the supposed longevity of the set as a whole. Sure, the lasers might be good for decades, but anytime you have moving parts you now have maintenance/wear issues to be concerned with.

One of the reasons I went with my Samsung LED DLP was simplicity of design and lack of moving parts compared to a traditional DLP. Well, lack of moving parts except for three cooling fans and the DLP chip itself.

If it truly has motors physically moving a screen layer, I wonder at the supposed longevity of the set as a whole. Sure, the lasers might be good for decades, but anytime you have moving parts you now have maintenance/wear issues to be concerned with.

One of the reasons I went with my Samsung LED DLP was simplicity of design and lack of moving parts compared to a traditional DLP. Well, lack of moving parts except for three cooling fans and the DLP chip itself.


There is no "if." It definitely has two motors that orbit the fresnel lens in the screen. It is not an optimal solution for the reason that you point out, and Mitsubishi is exploring other solutions and may have one for the next generation sets. Remember, this is a first generation product and limited in production. It is not a mass produced product. Mitsubishi has done this quite a few times in the past and been one of the first to bring new technologies to the market. They had some of the earliest products in LCD, PDP, DLP, LCOS, etc, and most of them were ridiculously expensive and had little resemblance, in some cases, to the mass produced product that followed.

This is a product to demonstrate the ability to produce sets using this technology and work out the kinks. It is not intended to be competitive, just to produce interest, which it surely has, though less than I suspect Mitsubishi marketing would like.

There is no "if." It definitely has two motors that orbit the fresnel lens in the screen. It is not an optimal solution for the reason that you point out, and Mitsubishi is exploring other solutions and may have one for the next generation sets. Remember, this is a first generation product and limited in production. It is not a mass produced product. Mitsubishi has done this quite a few times in the past and been one of the first to bring new technologies to the market. They had some of the earliest products in LCD, PDP, DLP, LCOS, etc, and most of them were ridiculously expensive and had little resemblance, in some cases, to the mass produced product that followed.

This is a product to demonstrate the ability to produce sets using this technology and work out the kinks. It is not intended to be competitive, just to produce interest, which it surely has, though less than I suspect Mitsubishi marketing would like.

How can they "produce interest" without sending at least one unit to places like south Florida ?

If they can't produce the sets how can they ship them? I keep saying, don't expect a wide availability of this set. It is very limited in production. Do you think they want a lot of sets out there that will need to be shipped back to the factory to have the screen changed?

Unless you are looking at a full black screen with not even one pixel illuminated the lasers must stay on, so you are looking at the native contrast ratio of the DLP almost all the time. Dimming the lasers is not significantly different to a dynamic iris on a lamp based set. Dimming is scene based, so the ability to do frame by frame dimming is of little practical value, it would likely cause flicker problems as well.

A local LED backlit LCD panel can illuminate only the area of the screen required and leave the rest black, can’t do that with DLP.

I believe dynamic contrast would attenuate the parts that are supposed to be brighter rather than almost never engage as you indicate above. (After all, that is a traditional criticism of dynamic contrast as opposed to real contrast.)

For example, even wth locally dimmed LED backlit LCDs, haven't people remarked about star fields blinking out? (Even locally dimmed, isn't local enough apparently. Though an improvement...)

Agree on the latest Kuro. If I recall the last review I read, it just blows most everything else out of the water with regard to contrast performance...

Unless you are looking at a full black screen with not even one pixel illuminated the lasers must stay on, so you are looking at the native contrast ratio of the DLP almost all the time. Dimming the lasers is not significantly different to a dynamic iris on a lamp based set. Dimming is scene based, so the ability to do frame by frame dimming is of little practical value, it would likely cause flicker problems as well.

Yes, but as you pointed out in your initial post, if there is bright content on the screen, we tend to see dark colors in the scene as black. So with a bright enough light source, you can produce very bright whites for the top end, and even though the blacks may not be pure black, they will appear that way. In a dimmer scene where blacks become an issue, the light source is dimmed, and blacks become blacker. The DC4 already has a pretty good native contrast ratio. A dimming light source allows that contrast ratio to be maintained in any given scene, rather than "throwing away" the top or bottom parts of the scale in scenes that overall are dim, or bright, respectively. Granted, it's still going to be at a disadvantage in a scene that has just a very tiny section of very bright, with a lot of very dark, but for the vast majority of real world scenes, it should fare very well.

Yes, it is just like an iris. But since the laser output can be varied instantly on a frame by frame basis, there's no reason for visual "flickering" if it's implemented properly.

I'm not here to defend laservue, I think it has it's fair share of issues. But there's no indication that blacks or contrast ratio are one of them. As I said, lamp based DC4 based displays already have good contrast ratio. A dynamic light source can only improve on that in actual viewing.

If they can't produce the sets how can they ship them? I keep saying, don't expect a wide availability of this set. It is very limited in production. Do you think they want a lot of sets out there that will need to be shipped back to the factory to have the screen changed?

I knew it, I knew it. Beta testers wanted, apply at your local Mits Dealer today. Don't miss this oppportunity!

I knew it, I knew it. Beta testers wanted, apply at your local Mits Dealer today. Don't miss this oppportunity!

;) Bring SEVEN LARGE for the opportunity to be the guinea pig !!!

:rolleyes: Too many issues for Mitsu's first Laser TV to be practical.

:cool: I think I'll pass and wait for the second generation.

Close, but it's Digital Light Processor / Processing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLP

ROFL :D I know what DLP stands for, I described what it does. ;)

DLP or Dithered Light Producer with wobulation, poor contrast ratio, over blown color and a vibrating screen, great.

Sorry Mitsubishi not interested.

No, you didn't.

(Well, your overall description anyway is bull, unless everything is judged against the latest Kuro to determine what is acceptable. Against other displays, DLP offers amazing price/performance, except the LaserView...)

;) Bring SEVEN LARGE for the opportunity to be the guinea pig !!!

:rolleyes: Too many issues for Mitsu's first Laser TV to be practical.

:cool: I think I'll pass and wait for the second generation.

The hostility regarding this product is surprising. One would think that most people would be happy that companies actually try to bring new technologies to market, and that there are people willing to spend the money on early versions that are obviously not priced with the mass market in mind.

The first VCRs and PDPs were ten times the price of where they ended up and most were real clunkers.

Mitsubishi certainly does things pretty stupidly sometimes, but at least they push the technology...and in this case it seems a pretty respectable first attempt. Certainly not likely to be found to be perfect, but for a new technology likely pretty good.

The lasers can be shut off completely, not just dimmed, if I'm not mistaken.

Sure they could, BUT not if even one pixel needs to be on because the laser light source is shared by ALL pixels. The only time the lasers can be off is on a totally black screen with not even one pixel displaying video data.
If we had an RGB laser set for each pixel we would not need the DLP chip, the TV would then also be potential dangerous as undiffused laser light would be directed at the screen, not to mention the cost and complexity of operating 6 million lasers.

I believe dynamic contrast would attenuate the parts that are supposed to be brighter rather than almost never engage as you indicate above. (After all, that is a traditional criticism of dynamic contrast as opposed to real contrast.)

No, the screen brightness is dynamically controled as a whole, you cant dim one part and have another bright with a single light source.


For example, even wth locally dimmed LED backlit LCDs, haven't people remarked about star fields blinking out? (Even locally dimmed, isn't local enough apparently. Though an improvement...)

There are problems with local LED backlit LCD, mainly because they don’t have one back light per pixel.


Agree on the latest Kuro. If I recall the last review I read, it just blows most everything else out of the water with regard to contrast performance...

I wont be interested in Plasma until G10, which will hopefully be able to turn its pixels off completely for absolute blacks.

No, you didn't.

(Well, your overall description anyway is bull, unless everything is judged against the latest Kuro to determine what is acceptable. Against other displays, DLP offers amazing price/performance, except the LaserView...)

Everyone has their own idea of what’s acceptable, personally I don’t find DLP acceptable and laser back lighting is not going to make it so for me.
Kuros have their problems as well; hopeful G10 will be “acceptable” to me, the current models are not.

No, the screen brightness is dynamically controled as a whole, you cant dim one part and have another bright with a single light source...

Brightness of brighter parts is sacrificed, or attenuated, to achieve a darker, overall, picture...

(Not saying this is really good. I turn it off. But it does kind of work...)

Everyone has their own idea of what’s acceptable, personally I don’t find DLP acceptable and laser back lighting is not going to make it so for me.
Kuros have their problems as well; hopeful G10 will be “acceptable” to me, the current models are not.

Well...ok...I've already surrendered... :)

(My last stand similar to such a position, was my GDM-F520 computer monitor, but it became too unreliable...)

Sure they could, BUT not if even one pixel needs to be on because the laser light source is shared by ALL pixels. The only time the lasers can be off is on a totally black screen with not even one pixel displaying video data.
If we had an RGB laser set for each pixel we would not need the DLP chip, the TV would then also be potential dangerous as undiffused laser light would be directed at the screen, not to mention the cost and complexity of operating 6 million lasers.
I don't think the laser is shared by all pixels as you put it. The laser illuminates a discrete number of mirrors in just the right angle to illuminates discrete parts of the image shown on the screen.

Just my understanding.

I don't think the laser is shared by all pixels as you put it. The laser illuminates a discrete number of mirrors in just the right angle to illuminates discrete parts of the image shown on the screen.
I thought the laser was used more like the projection bulb in a slide projector, so there's essentially 1 laser (or bulb or LED light source) for the entire TV shared by all pixels. As long as the image is not COMPLETELY black, the light source needs to be on and will light up whatever pixels are turned on. The side effect of this is that it prevents the rest of the screen from being completely black.

I don't think the laser is shared by all pixels as you put it. The laser illuminates a discrete number of mirrors in just the right angle to illuminates discrete parts of the image shown on the screen.

Just my understanding.

Your understanding is wrong. The laser is just a light source. All the selection is done by the mirrors. Again Laser DLP is no different than LED DLP. People hear laser and start assigning mysterious properties with no factual basis.

The laser is a light source, like LED and High intensity lamps. Laser and LED have significant advantages over lamps. But the advantage of Laser over LED is negligible.

Your understanding is wrong. The laser is just a light source. All the selection is done by the mirrors. Again Laser DLP is no different than LED DLP. People hear laser and start assigning mysterious properties with no factual basis.

The laser is a light source, like LED and High intensity lamps. Laser and LED have significant advantages over lamps. But the advantage of Laser over LED is negligible.
Then let me rephrase what I think is happening. Only a certain number of discrete mirrors will be angled in just the right way to reflect the laser light. Those mirrors (correspondingto specific areas of the image). Those angled the wrong way do not reflect light.

The mirrors always reflect the light. They either reflect it to the light sink or to the lens. The advantage of laser is that is is coherent, so less stray light is reflected to other surfaces and at angles other than the two directions desired.

Your understanding is wrong. The laser is just a light source. All the selection is done by the mirrors. Again Laser DLP is no different than LED DLP. People hear laser and start assigning mysterious properties with no factual basis.

The laser is a light source, like LED and High intensity lamps. Laser and LED have significant advantages over lamps. But the advantage of Laser over LED is negligible.
The advantage of lasers over leds may not be negligable. During a conversation with someone in the industry I was told that leds do not run at full brightness and suddenly die. They actually dim over time unlike lasers. Also leds cannot be turned up and down in gradations to control the amount of light. In order to achieve different levels of light
the leds flicker at different rates. So you have flickering leds illuminating fast moving mirrors. That seems less elegant than an illumination source that can be stepped up and down in subtle gradations.

Also, because I had considered the Samsung LED DLP, and am considering the Samsung LN55A950, I looked into reliability and longevity of LEDs. It turns out some of the manufacturer's claims may be overly optimistic. Here's a link to a test of LED longevity done by a person who believes in LED illumination in general, but feels people need to be realistic about expectations.

http://www.nickhill.co.uk/white_LED_life_expectancy.html

I was not blown away by the Samsung LED DLP when I saw it. The blacks were impressive, but I didn't find the image to be that bright, and the viewing angle seemed quite narrow,

The Samsung LN55A950 seemed to have a near perfect image, though the viewing angles are limited vs Plasma.

The mirrors always reflect the light. They either reflect it to the light sink or to the lens. The advantage of laser is that is is coherent, so less stray light is reflected to other surfaces and at angles other than the two directions desired.
Thanks for the clarification. So, no matter how the mirrors are angled the they always pick up some light. Right? But not all of it is directed towards the lens.

That is correct, when the light source is on. The mirrors have two primary angles, facing the lens and facing the light sink. Of course during the time they are moving, the light may be reflected at other angles. How they are modulating and gating the laser output relative to the DMD switching is not information that they have given out, nor do I expect to ever get it.

That is correct, when the light source is on. The mirrors have two primary angles, facing the lens and facing the light sink. Of course during the time they are moving, the light may be reflected at other angles. How they are modulating and gating the laser output relative to the DMD switching is not information that they have given out, nor do I expect to ever get it.
Do you know much about the NEO PDPs coming out in 2009? They are capable of being made in very large screen sizes. I'm just not clear on cost.

That is correct, when the light source is on. The mirrors have two primary angles, facing the lens and facing the light sink. Of course during the time they are moving, the light may be reflected at other angles. How they are modulating and gating the laser output relative to the DMD switching is not information that they have given out, nor do I expect to ever get it.
In reflecting on what I'd read about DLPs some time ago I think that there are more than two angle positions for the mirrors, with differing angles used to capture or reflect different colors.

Apparently I'm wrong about the differing angles and color. It does look like the mirrors are either in an on or off position.

Mea culpa

In reflecting on what I'd read about DLPs some time ago I think that there are more than two angle positions for the mirrors, with differing angles used to capture or reflect different colors.

You may be thinking of wobulation, where one mirror activates two adjacent pixels. But that has nothing directly to do with the generation of color.

No. I know about wobulation which removes the screen door effect, creating a more filmic picture.

My misconception was based on a very colorful diagram I saw once...

No. I know about wobulation which removes the screen door effect, creating a more filmic picture.

My misconception was based on a very colorful diagram I saw once...

It's actually mostly a cheaper way to get 1080P from a lower resolution chip.

(I do not have an issue with this. CRT paints its screens one pixel at a time...)

Wobulation is accomplished by mechanically moving a separate mirror with an actuator and hiller is correct, it is a method of getting a 1080p image with half as many pixels on the DMD.

Wobulation is accomplished by mechanically moving a separate mirror with an actuator and hiller is correct, it is a method of getting a 1080p image with half as many pixels on the DMD.
Again, thanks for the clarification of how the mysterious DLP process occurs.

But wobulation does have the added benefit of smoothing out the image and eliminating the screendoor effect.

I think people have to remember that all video reproduction is based on some sort of "illusion." Persistence of vision is different than seing things in life, but it simulates the experience.

Again, thanks for the clarification of how the mysterious DLP process occurs.

But wobulation does have the added benefit of smoothing out the image and eliminating the screendoor effect.

I think people have to remember that all video reproduction is based on some sort of "illusion." Persistence of vision is different than seing things in life, but it simulates the experience.

The tiny mirrors used by DLP are so close together that screen door effect was already less of an issue though...

(This was what made the technology interesting to me a few years ago, back when plasma and LCD were going for the more widely spaced pixel look...)

The tiny mirrors used by DLP are so close together that screen door effect was already less of an issue though...

(This was what made the technology interesting to me a few years ago, back when plasma and LCD were going for the more widely spaced pixel look...)
Have you read about the NEO PDP displays? Panasonic will be one of the big vendors. It's a vastly improved plasma, more energy efficient, with big screens possible. There's a 150 inch NEO PDP that some of the CEOS who benefitted from the bailout could buy
.
But for the rest of us an 85 inch wouldn't be bad...

Well...ok...I've already surrendered... :)

(My last stand similar to such a position, was my GDM-F520 computer monitor, but it became too unreliable...)


I still have a Sony G500 21” CRT with very low hours that I purchased new as my reference monitor. I also have another I picked up second hand for parts, so I should be able to keep it going for many years. I have yet to see an LCD that can better it as a video monitor and color reference.

Have you read about the NEO PDP displays? Panasonic will be one of the big vendors. It's a vastly improved plasma, more energy efficient, with big screens possible. There's a 150 inch NEO PDP that some of the CEOS who benefitted from the bailout could buy
.
But for the rest of us an 85 inch wouldn't be bad...


That’s what I will be looking to buy when they becomes available.
An 85" Panasonic or Pioneer with true blacks sounds very enticing, wont be cheap though.

85 inches - Is their a guesstimate as to when such a set would be available at a relativily low price?

BTW, any news on the larger size laservue?

85 inches - Is their a guesstimate as to when such a set would be available at a relativily low price?

BTW, any news on the larger size laservue?
An excerpt from here:
http://hdguru.com/ceatec-2008-the-hd-guru-brings-the-latest-hdtv-news-from-japan/298/

"...They are working on an 85” NeoPDP, and it may appear in the first half of 2009 if the Panasonic bigwigs decide to put in into production in 2009. This model was part of a previous cooperative agreement with Hitachi, before the companies’ decision to merge their respective plasma technologies."

Have you read about the NEO PDP displays? Panasonic will be one of the big vendors. It's a vastly improved plasma, more energy efficient, with big screens possible. There's a 150 inch NEO PDP that some of the CEOS who benefitted from the bailout could buy
.
But for the rest of us an 85 inch wouldn't be bad...

That is exciting. And I'd settle for an even smaller one, say 72"... :)

I still have a Sony G500 21” CRT with very low hours that I purchased new as my reference monitor. I also have another I picked up second hand for parts, so I should be able to keep it going for many years. I have yet to see an LCD that can better it as a video monitor and color reference.

Sony high end Trinitron displays are works of art.

Seeing the bare tube from an angle as it gracefully paints its vibrant phosphors against a black screen is a sight to behold. A work of beauty.

That LCD "succeeded" this technology is almost a crime...


(Not a suggestion that others remove the casing given the potentially lethal levels of voltage inside.)

Sony high end Trinitron displays are works of art.

Seeing the bare tube from an angle as it gracefully paints its vibrant phosphors against a black screen is a sight to behold. A work of beauty.

That LCD "succeeded" this technology is almost a crime...


(Not a suggestion that others remove the casing given the potentially lethal levels of voltage inside.)


Well, I loved my GDM FW900--until one day it went "Poof!" and started smoking...:eek:

I mean, smoking's bad for you, right? :D

I still have a Sony G500 21” CRT with very low hours that I purchased new as my reference monitor. I also have another I picked up second hand for parts, so I should be able to keep it going for many years. I have yet to see an LCD that can better it as a video monitor and color reference.

Reference Monitor vs HT panel are too different displays - the 21" sure as hell is not going to give you any HT WoW factor - it may be a reference point to look for "Reference" but is to be viewed and appreciated as "Reference" but the HT Panel is an immersive "EXPERIENCE".

The 21" CRT gets Watched while the HT Panel gets EXPERIENCED! I owned the best Sony 36" Consumer CRT produced but it never delivered the WoW factor of a 57" does everyday even 2 years later whether it's movies, sports, or concerts. My BD HT viewing far surpasses going to a Movie Theater now and no reflective 21" weenie vision is going to deliver on that. Apples and Oranges comparison.

I'd be willilng to bet the 65" Laser Beast would destroy a 21" CRT in what it was produced for --- HT Immersive WoW Factor!:)

Reference Monitor vs HT panel are too different displays - the 21" sure as hell is not going to give you any HT WoW factor - it may be a reference point to look for "Reference" but is to be viewed and appreciated as "Reference" but the HT Panel is an immersive "EXPERIENCE".

The 21" CRT gets Watched while the HT Panel gets EXPERIENCED! I owned the best Sony 36" Consumer CRT produced but it never delivered the WoW factor of a 57" does everyday even 2 years later whether it's movies, sports, or concerts. My BD HT viewing far surpasses going to a Movie Theater now and no reflective 21" is going to deliver on that.

I'd be willilng to bet the 65" Laser Beast would destroy a 21" CRT in what it was produced for --- HT Immersive WoW Factor!:)

Westa, I use the Sony CRT for color grading photographs and video not for entertainment, I have a modified (better the Kuro G8 black levels) 70” Sony SXRD for that.

The Sony CRT TV’s where not even close to the same quality as the high end Sony CRT PC monitors.

Sony high end Trinitron displays are works of art.

Seeing the bare tube from an angle as it gracefully paints its vibrant phosphors against a black screen is a sight to behold. A work of beauty.

That LCD "succeeded" this technology is almost a crime...


(Not a suggestion that others remove the casing given the potentially lethal levels of voltage inside.)

This hyperbole is adding nothing to this thread.

It is just engineering and spending the money in production to build a set right. The art comes with the creation of the programming, and with the claibration of lower performance products where more trade-offs have to be made to compensate for the poorer design and execution...like the color decoding in many Mits consumer products. Hopefully, the laservue improves on that.

That’s what I will be looking to buy when they becomes available.
An 85" Panasonic or Pioneer with true blacks sounds very enticing, wont be cheap though.The neopdp Panasonics won't have true blacks, and won't be as "black" as the 9g kuros. The 10G kuros probably will have true blacks, but they may not because of the economy.

The neopdp Panasonics won't have true blacks, and won't be as "black" as the 9g kuros. The 10G kuros probably will have true blacks, but they may not because of the economy.
Here's the Panasonic site where you can see the 150 inch and the measly 103 inch.
http://panasonic.net/plasma_progression/index.html

From what I've read (still looking for a good link) the NEO PDP will have black levels as good as or better than the 9G Kuro. Interestingly, Panasonic apparently will be providing panels to Pioneer.

This hyperbole is adding nothing to this thread.

It is just engineering and spending the money in production to build a set right. The art comes with the creation of the programming, and with the claibration of lower performance products where more trade-offs have to be made to compensate for the poorer design and execution...like the color decoding in many Mits consumer products. Hopefully, the laservue improves on that.

Hyperbole? Not at all, I said what I feel...

And it's been pretty grim as someone obsessed with tech to see CRT's premature demise in favor of technologies, which have been much more about physical form factor and ease of set up...

And are we now about to experience a similar premature demise with RPTV? After years of anticipation, rear projected LCOS was here and gone. And DLP is now looking pretty shaky…

However, as I stated earlier, I’ve already surrendered. I’m typing this with the aid of a 40 inch LCD panel. (I was spending too much time on my F520’s reliability issues…)

(And I certainly agree with folks here that size and consequent immersion is a big PQ factor where more recent tech’s have advanced performance wise…)

The neopdp Panasonics won't have true blacks, and won't be as "black" as the 9g kuros.

That's not exactly what D-Nice said, IIRC. I believe he said the NeoPDPs won't have better blacks than the 9g kuros, which could still mean that NeoPDP black level will be on par with 9g kuros.

That's not exactly what D-Nice said, IIRC. I believe he said the NeoPDPs won't have better blacks than the 9g kuros, which could still mean that NeoPDP black level will be on par with 9g kuros.If I'm not mistaken, he said Cheating? What is it cheating? The Kuro's black levels are in the 0.000xfL range. not even the NeoPDPs will get that low next year.I rest my case.

Here's the Panasonic site where you can see the 150 inch and the measly 103 inch.
http://panasonic.net/plasma_progression/index.html

From what I've read (still looking for a good link) the NEO PDP will have black levels as good as or better than the 9G Kuro. Interestingly, Panasonic apparently will be providing panels to Pioneer.He said it ^

....... Interestingly, Panasonic apparently will be providing panels to Pioneer.

yers, it's been known for quite some time that Pioneer will outsource panel production from Panasonic after the current 9G model cycle. It will not be Panasonic panel specs. The panels will be produced by Panasonic using Pioneer specs.

Originally Posted by D-Nice in the locked kuro brightness thread from a little while ago on page 5 or post 130
Cheating? What is it cheating? The Kuro's black levels are in the 0.000xfL range. not even the NeoPDPs will get that low next year.

I see. I'd just noticed his 12/08 post on the 12g Panasonic thread which was simply

Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.

The NEO PDP is claimed to have outstanding black levels. It's big advantage given this and PQ is that very large thin screens will be available in sizes larger than current or foreseeable Kuro displays.

I'm curious to see if NEO PDP has greater than conventional plasma longevity. I like the idea of laser because it's not supposed to dim. And even though bulb DLPs need bulb replacement after you do that you have a bright, new picture.

The NEO PDP is claimed to have outstanding black levels. It's big advantage given this and PQ is that very large thin screens will be available in sizes larger than current or foreseeable Kuro displays.

I'm curious to see if NEO PDP has greater than conventional plasma longevity. I like the idea of laser because it's not supposed to dim. And even though bulb DLPs need bulb replacement after you do that you have a bright, new picture.As Panasonic will be producing Pioneer's panels (JUST THE GLASS PANEL, NOT THE WHOLE DISPLAY!!!), they both may (probably) have the same sizes. In addition, D-Nice recently said that the 10g pios will span many sizes (small size LCDs, remember)

I don’t care who makes it but my next TV must have blacks significantly better then a G9 Kuro and be larger then 70”. The G10 is supposed to be a big step up from G9 in many ways, not just blacks.

Since 60-65” Plasma are now so cheap there has to be a place in the market for an 80-85” for under $20k, possibly even under $15k by the time they are released.
I cant see how Laservue will be able to compete on anything except price.

As Panasonic will be producing Pioneer's panels (JUST THE GLASS PANEL, NOT THE WHOLE DISPLAY!!!), they both may (probably) have the same sizes. In addition, D-Nice recently said that the 10g pios will span many sizes (small size LCDs, remember)
Apparently not just the glass:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9927835-7.html

April 24, 2008 10:21 AM PDT
Pioneer picks Panasonic to make plasmas

Panasonic has been tapped to pinch-hit for Pioneer.

The two television makers said Wednesday they had come to an agreement in which Panasonic will produce the panels for Pioneer's plasma televisions.

The news comes a month after reports surfaced that Pioneer was pulling out of the plasma business. When Pioneer confirmed it would be finding someone who could make the panels more inexpensively than it could, there was a sense of dismay and disappointment among fans of its Kuro technology. Pioneer plasma TVs are generally regarded by experts--including CNET Reviews' David Katzmaier--as having the blackest black levels of any TV on the market.

In a joint statement, the two companies said they will build a new type of panel that integrates Pioneer's Kuro technology and Panasonic's NeoPDP, which it currently uses in its Viera TVs. Panasonic will have the panels sporting the new, combined technology ready for Pioneer by the second half of 2009.

Panasonic is the largest producer of plasma TVs, so the panels should be more affordable for Pioneer, which is trying to cut costs. Neither has said how much the panels will cost.

Here's the Panasonic site where you can see the 150 inch and the measly 103 inch.
http://panasonic.net/plasma_progression/index.html


is the elephant indicative of how much that thing will weigh?

is the elephant indicative of how much that thing will weigh?
Well, it's not an indication that you can have it for peanuts.

Well, it's not an indication that you can have it for peanuts.
Here's another picture of the 150".

http://panasonic.com.sg/web/cid/MainCont/1682

Apparently not just the glass:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9927835-7.html

April 24, 2008 10:21 AM PDT
Pioneer picks Panasonic to make plasmas

Panasonic has been tapped to pinch-hit for Pioneer.

The two television makers said Wednesday they had come to an agreement in which Panasonic will produce the panels for Pioneer's plasma televisions.

The news comes a month after reports surfaced that Pioneer was pulling out of the plasma business. When Pioneer confirmed it would be finding someone who could make the panels more inexpensively than it could, there was a sense of dismay and disappointment among fans of its Kuro technology. Pioneer plasma TVs are generally regarded by experts--including CNET Reviews' David Katzmaier--as having the blackest black levels of any TV on the market.

In a joint statement, the two companies said they will build a new type of panel that integrates Pioneer's Kuro technology and Panasonic's NeoPDP, which it currently uses in its Viera TVs. Panasonic will have the panels sporting the new, combined technology ready for Pioneer by the second half of 2009.

Panasonic is the largest producer of plasma TVs, so the panels should be more affordable for Pioneer, which is trying to cut costs. Neither has said how much the panels will cost.No, they are just making the glass... Notice the date on the CNET article. The driving scheme, processing, and just about everything besides the panel will remain exclusive to Pioneer. Panasonic is JUST making the glass panel for Pioneer's specs.

No, they are just making the glass... Notice the date on the CNET article. The driving scheme, processing, and just about everything besides the panel will remain exclusive to Pioneer. Panasonic is JUST making the glass panel for Pioneer's specs.

Just? Isn't that the main part?

Isn't there a forum for PDPs?

Here's another picture of the 150".

http://panasonic.com.sg/web/cid/MainCont/1682

that might fit in my GA-RAGE!

Until they can produce one that size that can roll up and cost under $5K, I'll be ...

...well, I'll be doing... something. Something other than drooling, which I am kind of doing right now.

...I'll be in my bunk. :rolleyes:

Isn't there a forum for PDPs?
I buleve this here wud be it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=167

Here's another picture of the 150".

http://panasonic.com.sg/web/cid/MainCont/1682

150, where do I sign up for some of that? :D :D :D

Seggers

150, where do I sign up for some of that? :D :D :D

Seggers

at the plasma forum:rolleyes:

I don’t care who makes it but my next TV must have blacks significantly better then a G9 Kuro and be larger then 70”. The G10 is supposed to be a big step up from G9 in many ways, not just blacks.



Wow...and here I thought I was a stickler for black levels.

at the plasma forum:rolleyes:

So, wanna provide a link to that 150 Plasma tv forum, Einstein?

Houston, we have a sense of humour failure..... :p

Seggers

Just? Isn't that the main part?Not really. They are building the glass to Pioneer's specs, and the real beef is in the processing and the driving scheme. The driving is what makes the display "black" in its pulses (0.0000FL blacks are caused by the elimination of the reset step). I don't know that much, so I'd PM XROX, who works on patents of these a lot. He'll show you a fancy diagram.

Sorry for changing the thread, but I'm really just trying to liven it up because this thread is pretty much dead for laservue. I want to see more comparisons and user reviews and purchases.

Sorry for changing the thread, but I'm really just trying to liven it up because this thread is pretty much dead for laservue. I want to see more comparisons and user reviews and purchases.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure there is only one confirmed owner who has contributed to this thread. While only my opinion, I wouldn't expect to many "user reviews and purchases" to be reported here. It's performance to price ratio simply doesn't make sense. The more research one does, the more likely one is to discover there are other options that are, on balance, as good as, or better, than the Laservue for less money. And other options that are reasonably competative with the Laservue for considerably less money. Not to mention the risk of paying the first generation penalty, to cover R&D, for an unproven technology with a laughable warranty. At the very least Mits should protect the $7000 investors by giving them a substancial warranty.

Absent some unusual circumstances, like someone who really likes the unique colors or has personal grounds to reject the other technologies, the current Lasevue is simply not the set for the type of person that is likely to read and participate here. That said, I still have hopes that it soon might be. I've spent alot of time with one and it is better than the other DLP options. It is worth a modest price premium over other DLP choices, but not two or three times the price!

Others have commented about Mits and new technology. It's true they have broken new ground many times with a very expensive first generation product that was soon eclipsed by later generations. Still, at least they stuck their neck out first and opened the door for us all. For that, and for the Laservue, I applaud them. But a one year warranty and only 30 days on the screen?

<<But a one year warranty and only 90 days on the screen?>>

90 days on the screen? yikes! I guess they know something we don't. or rather, we didn't, but now do.

... I've spent alot of time with one and it is better than the other ... options. It is worth a modest price premium over other ... choices, but not two or three times the price!

But isn't this the way the HT industry prices everything? Incremental (or undetectable) technology-based improvements for dramatic increases in price? :rolleyes:

-Reid

Well, it seems the truth is somewhere in the middle. Panasonic isn't just building the glass.
http://kuro10g.blogspot.com/2008/10/panels-will-be-supplied-by-panasonic.html

Saturday, October 11, 2008
panels will be supplied by Panasonic
In an effort to control costs Pioneer is outsourcing its plasma panel production. The third generation Kuro, which would of been Pioneer's tenth generation (10G) panel, will have plasma panels that are supplied by Panasonic (Matsushita). The panel consists of the glass and the plasma module. As part of the deal, Pioneer will share some panel construction technology with Panasonic that will likely be used in future Panasonic plasmas. It is interesting that Pioneer says that "performance isn't solely built around the glass or the module." The video processing circuitry and color filter will still be built by Pioneer which is how the Kuro will distinguish itself from the Panasonic plasma HDTVs.

Well, it seems the truth is somewhere in the middle. Panasonic isn't just building the glass.
http://kuro10g.blogspot.com/2008/10/panels-will-be-supplied-by-panasonic.html

Saturday, October 11, 2008
panels will be supplied by Panasonic
In an effort to control costs Pioneer is outsourcing its plasma panel production. The third generation Kuro, which would of been Pioneer's tenth generation (10G) panel, will have plasma panels that are supplied by Panasonic (Matsushita). The panel consists of the glass and the plasma module. As part of the deal, Pioneer will share some panel construction technology with Panasonic that will likely be used in future Panasonic plasmas. It is interesting that Pioneer says that "performance isn't solely built around the glass or the module." The video processing circuitry and color filter will still be built by Pioneer which is how the Kuro will distinguish itself from the Panasonic plasma HDTVs.

In my continuing efforts to make the world safe for proper English, I must interrupt this blog quote and shout: "WOULD HAVE BEEN," not "would OF been." :mad: "Have" is the auxiliary verb to use when forming the past participle. "Of" is a preposition, and has no place in making verbs into participles.

But isn't this the way the HT industry prices everything? Incremental (or undetectable) technology-based improvements for dramatic increases in price? :rolleyes:

-Reid

Caveat Emptor.

90 days for the screen, which we know has a mechanical part? Uh oh...

<<But a one year warranty and only 90 days on the screen?>>

90 days on the screen? yikes! I guess they know something we don't. or rather, we didn't, but now do.
and what do we now know?

that if you scratch or damage your screen, you have 90 days from the date of purchase to blame it on the manufacturer?

That is 60 days longer than their previous policy I think.

Mechanical parts are warranted for failure (meaning the part fails) for 1 year from date of purchase.

dont try to make something seem like something its not.

I haven't followed this thread so this probably isn't news. As I understand it, only one new owner has so far posted here.

In our area Anderson is a small chain that has always specialized in Mitsubishi big screen displays. They have the 65" laser model on display. Of course one of their salesmen told me that the set was "... NOT a DLP, it's a LASER".

One of the Magnolia Audio-Video stores in the Bay Area (Santa Clara) plans to have it on display. According to someone at the Santa Clara Magnolia, there are no units for delivery at this moment because of a recall for manufacturing changes which should take about two months.

It brings back fond memories of the $13,000 50" DLP sets from Mitsubishi and Panasonic which predated Samsung's entry into the DLP market. Then there was the 82" Mitsubishi LCoS Alpha. ;)

Disposable cash is what's needed at the bleeding edge. :D

that if you scratch or damage your screen, you have 90 days from the date of purchase to blame it on the manufacturer?Samsung had subcontractor problems with their screens during parts of the 2004 / 2005 model years. Splotches would apear on start up and then, in some cases, go away after the set had warmed up. Their screens enjoyed the same one year warranty as the rest to the set. Owner neglect isn't the only thing that can go wrong with a screen, and 90 days may not be long enough for such problems to show themselves. ;)

and what do we now know?

that if you scratch or damage your screen, you have 90 days from the date of purchase to blame it on the manufacturer?

That is 60 days longer than their previous policy I think.

Mechanical parts are warranted for failure (meaning the part fails) for 1 year from date of purchase.

dont try to make something seem like something its not.

We both need to read the fine print. If the owner damages the screen the warranty is zero. The "Lenticular (i.e. front picture) screen surface is warranted against defect in materials and workmanship for a period of thirty (30) days from the date of the original purchase at retail." I really like the part that says the (very) limited warranty does not apply if damage is caused by "fine tuning" "necessary to prepare the unit for display or use". My error on the length of the screen warranty, its 30 days, not 90.

We both need to read the fine print. If the owner damages the screen the warranty is zero. The "Lenticular (i.e. front picture) screen surface is warranted against defect in materials and workmanship for a period of thirty (30) days from the date of the original purchase at retail." I really like the part that says the (very) limited warranty does not apply if damage is caused by "fine tuning" "necessary to prepare the unit for display or use". My error on the length of the screen warranty, its 30 days, not 90.
Its still the same thing.
they are giving ppl 30 days to report damage to the screen.

if there is some actual failure (as the guy above mentioned something with samsung) then it would certainly be covered.

They are just protecting themselves against people that cause damage to the TV.

Well, it seems the truth is somewhere in the middle. Panasonic isn't just building the glass.
http://kuro10g.blogspot.com/2008/10/panels-will-be-supplied-by-panasonic.html

Saturday, October 11, 2008
panels will be supplied by Panasonic
In an effort to control costs Pioneer is outsourcing its plasma panel production. The third generation Kuro, which would of been Pioneer's tenth generation (10G) panel, will have plasma panels that are supplied by Panasonic (Matsushita). The panel consists of the glass and the plasma module. As part of the deal, Pioneer will share some panel construction technology with Panasonic that will likely be used in future Panasonic plasmas. It is interesting that Pioneer says that "performance isn't solely built around the glass or the module." The video processing circuitry and color filter will still be built by Pioneer which is how the Kuro will distinguish itself from the Panasonic plasma HDTVs.


Of course Panasonice will not have the black levels of the Kuro - Panasonic won't put the film on their screen that turns low IRE levels magenta instead of black, which is how they acheive the deep "black" levels.

We understand your need to deride the Kuro, BeachComber, but could you do it in another thread, perhaps one that is supposed to be dedicated to PDPs? This one has been diverted enough.

We understand your need to deride the Kuro, BeachComber, but could you do it in another thread, perhaps one that is supposed to be dedicated to PDPs? This one has been diverted enough.

Let's see, there are 30+ posts on the Pioneer v Kuros and you want to hop on me? ROFLMAO. As soon as people quit discussing the Panasonic v Pioneer in a LaserVue thread, no problem. If they want to compare black to Kuros, then I will most certainly speak up.

yes yes yes. pioneer is god and all who question it are heritics and should be burned at the stake.
everyone knows this already.

....on a serious note. I was looking at Apocalypse Now on a kuro and a laservue at ken cranes and the laservue was the diety.

"Of" is a preposition, and has no place in making verbs into participles.

while on the subject of grammar, should there be a comma there?

and what do we now know?

that if you scratch or damage your screen, you have 90 days from the date of purchase to blame it on the manufacturer?

That is 60 days longer than their previous policy I think.

Mechanical parts are warranted for failure (meaning the part fails) for 1 year from date of purchase.

dont try to make something seem like something its not.

okay, I stand corrected. but no need to imply I was trying to mislead people. I just thought "screen" covers the screen assembly, not just the outer surface.

BTW, any news on the larger size laservue? The 73" LaserVue will be available next fall. This is according to an e-mail I received last week from Mitsubishi's senior manager of brand marketing, whom I met at CEDIA in August.

The 73" LaserVue will be available next fall.
Ouch! That is a way different than "early 2009".

I am hoping that we will see a 'second generation' at that time.

The 73" LaserVue will be available next fall. ...

Hmm... A delay that long isn't likely to be due to simply making a larger set. Sounds more like Mitsubishi has found some more serious changes they want to make. Not surprising in new technologies.

Hopefully they found a better solution to laser speckle. A 73" vibrating screen doesn't seem desirable to me.

First we hear that there has been a temporary halt in the delivery of the 65" set. Now this. That dog won't hunt.

Their window to grab market share against flat panels is now. The only way we'll actually see a generation two next fall is if they can make margin at a price substancially lower than current. While I hope to see a generation two, I'd say the odds are remote.

Maybe we'll get lucky and Samsung will go another round with the LED backed sets...

(Though somebody said earlier that the existing LED is only rated for 67" and less...)

First we hear that there has been a temporary hault in the delivery of the 65" set. Now this. That dog won't hunt.

Their window to grab market share against flat panels is now. The only way we'll actually see a generation two next fall is if they can make margin at a price substancially lower than current. While I hope to see a generation two, I'd say the odds are remote.

I still have this feeling that Laservue is D.O.A. Back in early 2007, I was being told hang on, the laser sets by MITS will be out fall 07. Come fall 07 it was changed to fall 08. The 65 started trickling out now although it can't be found anywhere in certain parts of the country. You are right when you write that the time was at hand for Laservue, but I think it is already gone. I've heard no buzz on these sets from people I know in the business or from people I know who are always into whatever the latest technology is. Now fall 09 for the 73. I'm betting you'll never see that set out.

a temporary hault in the delivery of the 65" set.

I just heard that today. At Ultimate Electronics (had to give the set a 2nd look), was told March was when the units were going to start coming out again. Made a bad joke about shark & laser redistribution to the sales lady but I think she's already heard them all and just smiles for the commission.

What exactly is the deal with a vibrating screen? I didn't see anything to that extent. It was a lot brighter than it was last time, and the speckle was visible. Weird, kinda like SSE, but spottier and finer, almost like grain (definitely sub pixel sized speckle). Also, it didn't look as sharp as other DLPs, I wonder if image manipulation is fixed and there's no way to get a 1:1 pixel mapping...

Now fall 09 for the 73. I'm betting you'll never see that set out.
i'll take that bet

JUst my opinion but they have to much invested to let this just die. If it's true about fall of 2009, then expect to see a better set with alot of bugs worked out, and a better price. Remember with the economy the way it is the money they have invested in this, they won't let this die that easy. Don't wan't to be another G.M.

Agreed this set is now DOA. With CES coming up and new flat panels soon to come out, I especially don't see how the 65" will survive, unless they either drastically reduce the price and/or make this set practically flawless. Remember flat panels will be getting both cheaper and better next year. Mitsubishi can't do a time out till they get their LaserVue thing together.

The only reason that RP DLP still survives is because they come in a larger size than flat panels and they are cheaper. Unless Mitsubishi can halve their prices next year, especially on the 65", it will be a no go. Hell, I'll even get in on a bet that this is it and we will never see any more LaseVue sets.....they just don't make any kind of fiscal sense for Mitsubishi.

Mits was 5 years too late with the LaserVue.

Mits was 5 years too late with the LaserVue.

Agree 100%.

i'll take that bet

Whenever I need a reality check when things get delayed for an entire year, I just look at the 100+ page Manual for the Sony KDS-Z70XBR5.

Mits was 5 years too late with the LaserVue.

That would be about when I bought my original 43" Samsung DLP. Certainly didn't need lasers to impress back then vs. most of what else was available...

Whenever I need a reality check when things get delayed for an entire year, I just look at the 100+ page Manual for the Sony KDS-Z70XBR5.
Never saw the manual, but boy was I waiting for that XBR5.

Whenever I need a reality check when things get delayed for an entire year, I just look at the 100+ page Manual for the Sony KDS-Z70XBR5.

BeachComber,

You and I have had words in the past, but I have you admit this post was priceless!

Whenever I need a reality check when things get delayed for an entire year, I just look at the 100+ page Manual for the Sony KDS-Z70XBR5.


That is what I had in mind when I wrote that I don't believe you'll ever see that 73 Laservue. Also, MITS is not going to live or die based on what happens with Laservue. They are a large diverse company and I believe they will cut their losses rather than pursue a technology that will never be a leader in the television field. Look for larger, better, and cheaper lcd's and plasmas in the next year or two. LASERVUE-too little, too late.

Tiger Direct has the Mits WD-60735 and WD-65735 shipped for $1199.00 either. Obviously, this is the old DLP, but how can this not be a good price? I haven't read all these pages in here, but am I missing something? Sorry if I'm hijacking....

Sirwriter

Laservue is SXRD never going to happen again part II.

The first tip off to me that DLP was dying was when Samsung didn't include Dark Chip 4.

Laservue is SXRD never going to happen again part II.

The first tip off to me that DLP was dying was when Samsung didn't include Dark Chip 4.

It is an ominous sign...

Tiger Direct has the Mits WD-60735 and WD-65735 shipped for $1199.00 either. Obviously, this is the old DLP, but how can this not be a good price? I haven't read all these pages in here, but am I missing something? Sorry if I'm hijacking....
I suppose it's no worse than talking about plasmas and LCD's in the Rear Projection Units forum :D. OTOH, price talk is typically forbidden here and there is a thread, 2008 Mitsubishi Owners Thread (735/736 and diamond) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1024421), for the 735/736/835 series Mits DLP's.

Sorry about talking prices, and thanks for the link!

It seems to me that half the posts in this thread have been about price, generally complaining about it. ;)

That is what I had in mind when I wrote that I don't believe you'll ever see that 73 Laservue. Also, MITS is not going to live or die based on what happens with Laservue. They are a large diverse company and I believe they will cut their losses rather than pursue a technology that will never be a leader in the television field. Look for larger, better, and cheaper lcd's and plasmas in the next year or two. LASERVUE-too little, too late.

What you said has been stated in this thread multiple times and I have never chosen to correct it....but will this time, as its an easy mistake to assume.

If you will research it, you will find that Mitsubishi REALLY ISNT A BIG COMPANY under a giant umbrella. While i really have not tried to understand the whys and hows, MITSUBISHI is a collection of over 200 seperate companies NOT OWNED BY SOME BIG MITSUBISHI INC.

http://www.mitsubishi.com/e/group/about.html

Mitsubishi Electric is not a huge company in the way Sony is - and is the Company that will rise and fall with the success of LaserVue.

Nikon, Mitsubishi Steel nor Mitsubishi Motors (among others) will NOT in any way subsidize the LaserVue losses - they are a totally different non-related company.

What you said has been stated in this thread multiple times and I have never chosen to correct it....but will this time, as its an easy mistake to assume.

If you will research it, you will find that Mitsubishi REALLY ISNT A BIG COMPANY under a giant umbrella. While i really have not tried to understand the whys and hows, MITSUBISHI is a collection of over 200 seperate companies NOT OWNED BY SOME BIG MITSUBISHI INC.

http://www.mitsubishi.com/e/group/about.html

Mitsubishi Electric is not a huge company in the way Sony is - and is the Company that will rise and fall with the success of LaserVue.

Nikon, Mitsubishi Steel nor Mitsubishi Motors (among others) will NOT in any way subsidize the LaserVue losses - they are a totally different non-related company.

Thanks for the link. That's fascinating. I wasn't aware of the different aspects of "Mitsubishi".

What you said has been stated in this thread multiple times and I have never chosen to correct it....but will this time, as its an easy mistake to assume.

If you will research it, you will find that Mitsubishi REALLY ISNT A BIG COMPANY under a giant umbrella. While i really have not tried to understand the whys and hows, MITSUBISHI is a collection of over 200 seperate companies NOT OWNED BY SOME BIG MITSUBISHI INC.

http://www.mitsubishi.com/e/group/about.html

Mitsubishi Electric is not a huge company in the way Sony is - and is the Company that will rise and fall with the success of LaserVue.

Nikon, Mitsubishi Steel nor Mitsubishi Motors (among others) will NOT in any way subsidize the LaserVue losses - they are a totally different non-related company.

Thanks for the link. I know can understand more how the TV division has made some boneheaded moves lately. Being that there is no conglomerate over looking their bottom line and forming a good corporate strategy.

It seems to me that half the posts in this thread have been about price, generally complaining about it. ;)

I think what it is, at least from my point of view, is that Mitsubishi priced this technology out of the market.... and most likely out of existence. I would have like for this technology to have stayed around, but charging so much for a dying technology was bad corporate strategy (see post above). Not that I am a champion of cheap sets, I just bought a Elite 151. An MSRP of 6.5K for current tech is not too bad, but 7K for old tech is just plain stupid, niche market or not.

I'll predict even if this set does somehow come back out it will be such a minor player that Mitsubishi will never recoup their development costs. This technology had to be perfect from the get go, because it's the fourth qtr and the clock is running out on RP DLP. I don't think there will be time for many more generations before Mitsubishi can longer bleed red on this technology.

...Nikon, Mitsubishi Steel nor Mitsubishi Motors (among others) will NOT in any way subsidize the LaserVue losses - they are a totally different non-related company.

I think you are interpreting a Japanese company through Western eyes, and more particularly Western accounting practices. Mitsibushi Electric is a BIG company and undoubtedly benefits in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways from being under the big umbrella. The Japanese concept of face and image would ensure support from other parts of the grouping should one of their products fail.

So how come there aren't any hands-on technical-level reviews of the LaserVue since the initial ones came out on the 'Net in October? (I.e., the one with the Iron Man pictures comparing it with the Kuro, I believe.)

I've Googled for reviews and can't find anything recent.

So how come there aren't any hands-on technical-level reviews of the LaserVue since the initial ones came out on the 'Net in October? (I.e., the one with the Iron Man pictures comparing it with the Kuro, I believe.)

I've Googled for reviews and can't find anything recent.

http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Gee ... he's almost making me a believer in the LaserVue.

Sorry It's only my opinion but I still don't think it's dead yet. All this talk about how thin. Do you buy a tv for how thin it is I will still take 73" over 50 or 60''. When the big plasmas or lcd come out check the price. Old tech? How many lasers are out there. When ypou go to the movies do we look at the movie or check and see what the black leavels are like? People buy what they like size ,perfect blacks or thin.

It would be a shame if this set or DLP in general dies out. The value for the buck is unapproachable by other techs, at least with standard or LED DLPs, and I suspect this set could be brought in line with them pricewise and the bugs worked out, if time permits.

We shall see, however.

It would be a shame if this set or DLP in general dies out. The value for the buck is unapproachable by other techs, at least with standard or LED DLPs, and I suspect this set could be brought in line with them pricewise and the bugs worked out, if time permits.

We shall see, however.

THANK YOU! thats right. It's the most bang for the buck. Everybody has there on choice. I would rather have a larger screen than a smaller one . Others would not. I don't think thin means that much to guys as it does women. I don't seem to see what the obsession with thin is. you still need something, stand, thick enough for you cable box ,dvd, & sound sound wich is thicker than 10 ".

It would be a shame if this set or DLP in general dies out. The value for the buck is unapproachable by other techs, at least with standard or LED DLPs, and I suspect this set could be brought in line with them pricewise and the bugs worked out, if time permits.

We shall see, however.

DLP won't die out anytime soon. Although RP DLP might.

I think you are interpreting a Japanese company through Western eyes, and more particularly Western accounting practices. Mitsibushi Electric is a BIG company and undoubtedly benefits in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways from being under the big umbrella. The Japanese concept of face and image would ensure support from other parts of the grouping should one of their products fail.

Suggest you read the link on the Mitsubishi Website that I posted.

For those interested in Mitsubishi's business model, it's called a keiretsu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu

I think what it is, at least from my point of view, is that Mitsubishi priced this technology out of the market.... and most likely out of existence. I would have like for this technology to have stayed around, but charging so much for a dying technology was bad corporate strategy (see post above). Not that I am a champion of cheap sets, I just bought a Elite 151. An MSRP of 6.5K for current tech is not too bad, but 7K for old tech is just plain stupid, niche market or not.

I'll predict even if this set does somehow come back out it will be such a minor player that Mitsubishi will never recoup their development costs. This technology had to be perfect from the get go, because it's the fourth qtr and the clock is running out on RP DLP. I don't think there will be time for many more generations before Mitsubishi can longer bleed red on this technology.

Plasma is old tech in the same way that DLP is. If you mean current tech as in the latest Kuro, laser illuminated DLP hardly even appears to be fully realized as current tech yet...

Suggest you read the link on the Mitsubishi Website that I posted.

I did, but as a retired economist I've spent decades reading about the Japanese economy, which until the stagnation of the 90s was the world model of efficiency.

You just can't take a superficial look at complex matters like that and think you understand them.

Anyway, back to display technology.

I also think a uniquely thin RPTV has a market. I've been intrigued by NEO PDPs because of large screen size, but they are heavy and probably will be pricey. There are a lot of people who want a theater experience, but don't have a dedicated room for a projector.

The ability of laser to withstand multiple reflections, allowing interesting geometries and therefore cabinets with little depth, might result in very large displays...85 inches and up...which are bright in daylight, and which are cheaper than huge LCDs or plasmas.

The 65 inch Laservue is 10 inches in depth. Compare this to the 65835 which is 15.3 inches in depth.

The large NEO PDPs will require strong, weight supporting walls according to a rep I spoke with at Panasonic. The current Laservue is 135 lbs. An 85 inch might be 200 lbs or less. (a wild estimate by me)

It all depends upon the developing picture quality and economics. Just because I found the first generation 65 inch to be a little too intense doesn't mean that refinements might not produce a truly flawless image. I agree with many that Mits. should have released a 73 or 75 inch display first. The benefits of large, thin, light Laser driven displays would have been more obvious had they given the large display afficianadoes a bigger image right away.

IMHO

Plasma is old tech in the same way that DLP is. If you mean current tech as in the latest Kuro, laser illuminated DLP hardly even appears to be fully realized as current tech yet...


For now, plasma thrives, RP DLP does not. Every time I go into an electronics store I see less and less RP sets. LaserVue is not the old technology but Rear Projection is. Whether we here like it or not people are choosing more flat panels. As the price of the 65" flat panels fall, so do the chances of the 65" LaserVue.

For now, plasma thrives, RP DLP does not. Every time I go into an electronics store I see less and less RP sets. LaserVue is not the old technology but Rear Projection is. Whether we here like it or not people are choosing more flat panels. As the price of the 65" flat panels fall, so do the chances of the 65" LaserVue.

I think 65 inches is a threshold of sorts. If next year affordable plasmas or lcds hit 70 inches and above become available, then you might be right. But it may be that larger flat displays come at a price premium.

I still think a thin, 85 inch Laservue might make the argument.

Sorry for the bad sentence construction. The perils of cut and paste and eyestrain.

I think Mitsubishi is really missing the goal here. The exisiting technology could be improved dramatically by proper implementation. An optimized screen for resolution, top notch video processing and good color decoding and make sure the set ships with first class calibration out of the box. The steps would make the exisiting lamp based sets much more attractive. Companies sometimes do not properly improved existing technology when they begin offering something new. Samsung removed the iris from their lamp based DLPs, a cost saving move perhaps but the net effect is it made the LED sets more competitive.

Mitsubish does not need 3 different lamp based DLPs at each size point. They should be focused on the 73" size and above only, regardles.

Make one series do it right, really right. and save the Laser or next gen technology for when it and the market are ready and in alginment.

So what dies first--Laservue or conventional lamp based 73-inch DLP?

I think Mitsubishi is really missing the goal here. The exisiting technology could be improved dramatically by proper implementation. An optimized screen for resolution, top notch video processing and good color decoding and make sure the set ships with first class calibration out of the box. The steps would make the exisiting lamp based sets much more attractive. Companies sometimes do not properly improved existing technology when they begin offering something new. Samsung removed the iris from their lamp based DLPs, a cost saving move perhaps but the net effect is it made the LED sets more competitive.

Mitsubish does not need 3 different lamp based DLPs at each size point. They should be focused on the 73" size and above only, regardles.

Make one series do it right, really right. and save the Laser or next gen technology for when it and the market are ready and in alginment.

Good point. I frankly like the bulb dlp diamonds quite a bit. I went to another store and saw a Diamond that was bright, contrasty and sharp, with very accurate colors.

Expect a more limited lineup in lamp based sets mid 2009 and a 65", 75", and 85" Laservue at the end of 2009.

Mitsubishi has been openly hostile to the calibration and technical evaluation of their sets in favor of targeting the budwieser crowd who wants BIG, eye-abusing images. If they want to sell at the higher end, they will have to address performance issues more openly. Their arrogance on the matter has turned off many of the very same people who could make their products sell. The enabling of additional controls in the service menu in recent sets is a move in the right direction, but they are still unwilling to provide any documentation and direction for calibration, forcing people to have to experiment again to figure them out.

Expect a more limited lineup in lamp based sets mid 2009 and a 65", 75", and 85" Laservue at the end of 2009.

Mitsubishi has been openly hostile to the calibration and technical evaluation of their sets in favor of targeting the budwieser crowd who wants BIG, eye-abusing images. If they want to sell at the higher end, they will have to address performance issues more openly. Their arrogance on the matter has turned off many of the very same people who could make their products sell. The enabling of additional controls in the service menu in recent sets is a move in the right direction, but they are still unwilling to provide any documentation and direction for calibration, forcing people to have to experiment again to figure them out.

What company do you know that recommends calibrating their TV's. I don't know of one. So its hit and miss with all sets. Most of the problems I have read here deal with the TV's not passing test, personally, I did not buy my set to look at test patterns...just my two cents.

Several companies have embraced the notion that their sets should be designed to support calibration. LG, Pioneer, Samsung, Runco, and numerous others that at least give controls for gamma, white balance, etc. Those listed, and others, are very helpful when questioned on calibration issues, even outside of official ISF contact. Mitsubishi has been very arrogant in refusing to even discuss the contents of service menus and has, in the past, intentionally disabled controls that could have allowed the sets to be calibrated to much more closely match the industry standards. The continue to refuse to document or discuss controls. The service manuals and training manuals do not document any of the gray scale nor color managment controls, only the geometry and position correction.

Calibration has nothing to do with watching test patterns. It is all about the science getting the best reproduction of images possible within the limits of the technology. The reason that you have not seen much regarding the calibration of these sets is that few have been calibrated as they are in very short supply and Mitsubishi has openly discouraged calibrating the ones that are on display and provided few, if any, for review to those who would attempt to do so. Any discussion of the matter in training or in discussions with service support was immediately rejected.

For now, plasma thrives, RP DLP does not. Every time I go into an electronics store I see less and less RP sets. LaserVue is not the old technology but Rear Projection is. Whether we here like it or not people are choosing more flat panels. As the price of the 65" flat panels fall, so do the chances of the 65" LaserVue.

Prices will go down on flat panels and the sizes over 60 will increase. Here is an interesting column from todays Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/technology/chi-fri-tech-buzz-hdtv-dec26,0,1119091.column

Several companies have embraced the notion that their sets should be designed to support calibration. LG, Pioneer, Samsung, Runco, and numerous others that at least give controls for gamma, white balance, etc. Those listed, and others, are very helpful when questioned on calibration issues, even outside of official ISF contact. Mitsubishi has been very arrogant in refusing to even discuss the contents of service menus and has, in the past, intentionally disabled controls that could have allowed the sets to be calibrated to much more closely match the industry standards. The continue to refuse to document or discuss controls. The service manuals and training manuals do not document any of the gray scale nor color managment controls, only the geometry and position correction.

Calibration has nothing to do with watching test patterns. It is all about the science getting the best reproduction of images possible within the limits of the technology. The reason that you have not seen much regarding the calibration of these sets is that few have been calibrated as they are in very short supply and Mitsubishi has openly discouraged calibrating the ones that are on display and provided few, if any, for review to those who would attempt to do so. Any discussion of the matter in training or in discussions with service support was immediately rejected.

Where can I find this information that you state as fact? And one other question, If someone has their sets calibrated, based on what you have stated would their warranty still be good? I asked this last question because my JVC 56" optical block went bad and I was asked if my television has been calibrated, it had not, but if it had do you think they would have fixed it? Please understand I can tell if the colors are off since I don't know what to check them against. I did see a calibrated tv and noticed the flesh tones looked more natural while the same tv not caibrated I noticed more unreal colors (very colorful but not realistic).

I get the information from contacts with manufacturers through service relationships that have developed over 30 years and through forums that I subscribe to. ISF has developed relationships with many of these vendors and does consulting for them. You will see ISF logos on some products and even Mitsubishi for some reason labels their service menu ISF. You can look to the display calibration forum for answers to most of your questions.

Service techs are often hostile to calibration because they do not understand it, are intimidated by the fact that others can do a part of their job with more knowledge than they, and because some vendors, like Mitsubishi and JVC, have at times been openly hostile to calibration. The bottom line is that warranty determination has as much to do with the local servicer and his attitude as with the policy of the manufacturer. Lots of techs just don't want to deal with consumers who have their sets calibrated because they are afraid that they will know more about the set and the problem than they do. The solution is to simply not discuss the matter with them and to find the servicers in your area who are reasonable and well educated. Calibration done by a pro has no relation to service problems, in fact, it can minimize them. No court in the USA would rule in favor of a company that dismissed a warranty claim on the basis of adjustments that were not related to the failure.

Of course, if you are hostile to the idea of calibration, as your post leads one to suspect, just don't bother with it. If you are happy watching what you have, you will never know what you are missing with a properly aligned display. Ignorance can be bliss and the issue is moot.

I get the information from contacts with manufacturers through service relationships that have developed over 30 years and through forums that I subscribe to. ISF has developed relationships with many of these vendors and does consulting for them. You will see ISF logos on some products and even Mitsubishi for some reason labels their service menu ISF. You can look to the display calibration forum for answers to most of your questions.

Service techs are often hostile to calibration because they do not understand it, are intimidated by the fact that others can do a part of their job with more knowledge than they, and because some vendors, like Mitsubishi and JVC, have at times been openly hostile to calibration. The bottom line is that warranty determination has as much to do with the local servicer and his attitude as with the policy of the manufacturer. Lots of techs just don't want to deal with consumers who have their sets calibrated because they are afraid that they will know more about the set and the problem than they do. The solution is to simply not discuss the matter with them and to find the servicers in your area who are reasonable and well educated. Calibration done by a pro has no relation to service problems, in fact, it can minimize them. No court in the USA would rule in favor of a company that dismissed a warranty claim on the basis of adjustments that were not related to the failure.

Of course, if you are hostile to the idea of calibration, as your post leads one to suspect, just don't bother with it. If you are happy watching what you have, you will never know what you are missing with a properly aligned display. Ignorance can be bliss and the issue is moot.

I was just asking questions if you don't want to answer them then so be it, but ease up on the Ignorance...nothing I have asked has been aimed at you, they were just general questions.

Prices will go down on flat panels and the sizes over 60 will increase. Here is an interesting column from todays Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/technology/chi-fri-tech-buzz-hdtv-dec26,0,1119091.column

One might infer from the article that bigger screens at lesser prices are on the way, but the article doesn't appear to actually say that.

"...Another factor: There's no reason to wait. "People wanted to wait to go from 720p to 1080p," Abt said about the higher resolution. "That's not an issue anymore. There's nothing new coming down the pipeline."..."

We are in a glut of sorts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that affordable TVs bigger than 65 are on our way. I still think that truly large displays are a different story altogether.

























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The comments were not meant as an insult. It is simply a fact and reasonable that some people should not bother having their displays calibrated. It is also a fact that there is much Ignorance on the part of manufacturers and service techs. There is also a large community of people dedicated to getting the most out of the technology and pushing it to its limits. Just pointing out that there are different perspectives among users that are equally valid. The positions of some vendors and service people do not get the same respect, as they are inexcusable, IMO and that of many others.

I'm thinking that if Joe or Jane Sixpack (or Joe the Plumber) does this:

1. Select the "cinema"/"theater"/"movie" mode
2. Select the temperature (warm 1/warm 2/etc.) closest to 6500 degrees
3. Turn off all the "automatic" picture features
4. Use a THX (found on many Disney DVDs) or other simple calibration series of menus to adjust the brightness (black level) and contrast (white level) and sharpness

it will make a big enough difference that even though the gamma and other things might not be ideal, and they won't get all the detail that a true $350-$400 calibration will achieve, they should be far closer to a "good picture" than the out-of-the-box settings and be pretty close to seeing their movies and TV shows properly.

What do you think?

We are in a glut of sorts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that affordable TVs bigger than 65 are on our way. I still think that truly large displays are a different story altogether.



Affordable TVs bigger than 65" have been here for several years, but some folks have issues with DLP or are form factor snobs. :rolleyes:

What company do you know that recommends calibrating their TV's. I don't know of one. So its hit and miss with all sets. Most of the problems I have read here deal with the TV's not passing test, personally, I did not buy my set to look at test patterns...just my two cents.

I guess you did not buy it to get accurate colors on real life content either :rolleyes:

I'm thinking that if Joe or Jane Sixpack (or Joe the Plumber) does this:

1. Select the "cinema"/"theater"/"movie" mode
2. Select the temperature (warm 1/warm 2/etc.) closest to 6500 degrees
3. Turn off all the "automatic" picture features
4. Use a THX (found on many Disney DVDs) or other simple calibration series of menus to adjust the brightness and contrast and sharpness

it will make a big enough difference that even though the gamma and other things might not be ideal, and they won't get all the detail that a true $350-$400 calibration will achieve, they should be far closer to a "good picture" than the out-of-the-box settings and be pretty close to seeing their movies and TV shows properly.

What do you think?


I am guessing that THX since does offer training for calibration and THX Certification for Calibrated Sets, that they must think there is something that makes calibration worth a lot more than than the THX Calibration found on most DVDs.

...1. Select the "cinema"/"theater"/"movie" mode
2. Select the temperature (warm 1/warm 2/etc.) closest to 6500 degrees
3. Turn off all the "automatic" picture features
4. Use a THX (found on many Disney DVDs) or other simple calibration series of menus to adjust the brightness (black level) and contrast (white level) and sharpness...What do you think?

Well, it's the first stuff I always do. Though if they offer enough control, I max out the contrast control and set the white point with the iris or backlight. And the black level at the point where the brightness control itself adds no grey to the floor set, again, by the backlight...

Affordable TVs bigger than 65" have been here for several years, but some folks have issues with DLP or are form factor snobs. :rolleyes:
My point was in response. In context, flat screens above 65 in. when they arrive will likely be quite expensive at first. This lends weight to the notion that large screen laservues have a place in the market for people who love large displays.

My point was in response. In context, flat screens above 65 in. when they arrive will likely be quite expensive at first. This lends weight to the notion that large screen laservues have a place in the market for people who love large displays.

I agree with you 100%.

My point was in response. In context, flat screens above 65 in. when they arrive will likely be quite expensive at first. This lends weight to the notion that large screen laservues have a place in the market for people who love large displays.

Understood. :cool:

I'm thinking that if Joe or Jane Sixpack (or Joe the Plumber) does this:

1. Select the "cinema"/"theater"/"movie" mode
2. Select the temperature (warm 1/warm 2/etc.) closest to 6500 degrees
3. Turn off all the "automatic" picture features
4. Use a THX (found on many Disney DVDs) or other simple calibration series of menus to adjust the brightness (black level) and contrast (white level) and sharpness

it will make a big enough difference that even though the gamma and other things might not be ideal, and they won't get all the detail that a true $350-$400 calibration will achieve, they should be far closer to a "good picture" than the out-of-the-box settings and be pretty close to seeing their movies and TV shows properly.

What do you think?

I think it depends on what "Joe" wants. He may be the guy the marketing people are targeting who is happy with the OOB look of the set.

For those who did not read this section:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1076476

Laser Cinema, Coming Someday to a Theater Near You—Maybe
By Monica Heger
First Published October 2008
Engineers in China have built a laser digital cinema projector
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PHOTO: Yong Bi/Chinese Academy of Sciences

14 October 2008—The first laser TV is set to go on sale soon in North America, but engineers from the Academy of Opto-Electronics at the Chinese Academy of Sciences and Phoebus Vision Opto-Electronics, in Beijing, say they’ve already brought the eye-popping color of laser-generated images to the big screen with a digital cinema projector that uses lasers as the light source. The team combined several lasers with the MEMS technology used in digital projectors today. They describe the device in September’s Journal of Display Technology .

The technology “will be the next generation of cinema display,” says Yong Bi, a professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences and chief technology officer at Phoebus, which is commercializing the projector. However, others in the industry question whether laser cinema will be ready in time and inexpensive enough to catch much of the market.

Bi’s projector replaces the white light and color filters used in today’s digital projectors with several red, green, and blue lasers. The lasers illuminate a digital micromirror device, a MEMS chip invented by Texas Instruments. The chip has an array of microscopic mirrors that each correspond to a pixel on the screen. The chip turns the pixels on or off by tilting the mirrors to direct light either toward or away from the screen.

Engineers have been interested in replacing the white light source and its accompanying color filters with lasers for years. Russell Wintner, consultant with WinterTek, a business, technology, and digital-media consulting firm based in Los Angeles, says the range of color that can be produced from lasers is the most attractive feature of the technology. “Lasers get closer to what the human eye can see than any other technology,” he says. “It makes for a much more lifelike image.”

Another advantage is that lasers are more energy efficient. Xenon lamps, the standard projection light source today, dissipate a lot of their energy as heat instead of light. In addition, xenon bulbs produce infrared radiation, which has to be filtered out so that it doesn’t damage the projector’s optics.

Despite these advantages, lasers have been considered too costly for digital projectors. Michael Karagosian, president of MKPE Consulting, a business, technology, and entertainment consulting firm in Los Angeles, estimates that a laser lamp could cost between US $10000 and $20000, while a xenon lamp costs just a couple of thousand dollars. However, he says, the energy savings could make a laser projector economically viable, particularly if mass production brings the cost down.

Another problem with lasers is “speckle,” a kind of self-interference that makes images shimmer and sparkle, says Bob Rushby, chief technology officer at Christie Digital. When a laser hits a rough surface, its waves reflect randomly and interfere with each other, either adding or canceling each other out, to produce bright and dark spots when the light reaches the viewer’s eye. Lasers are especially susceptible to speckle because they are “coherent”—their light is of one wavelength. Noncoherent white light is made up of many different wavelengths, so the interference is not visible. To reduce the speckle of interference, Bi and his colleagues used multiple lasers, each of a slightly different wavelength, to produce each color. This reduces the coherence of the beam so that the speckle is not visible, according to the researchers.

Rushby, who's firm makes digital projectors, says that while this technique does work, it doesn’t completely eliminate speckle, and he wasn’t convinced that an audience would not detect it.

“Speckle is an extremely challenging problem,” he says. “The method helps, but it is not yet suitable for theatergoing audiences.” Other techniques to reduce speckle include vibrating the movie screen or bouncing the lasers off rotating mirrors in the projector, both of which make the speckle pattern change so quickly that it becomes less perceptible.

Christie Digital is also researching laser projector technology, but Rushby would not give details on any potential products. “We believe laser has a future, but we have some problems to solve,” he says.

But if laser doesn’t come to the market soon, it may lose out to other technologies, WinterTek’s Wintner thinks. The industry is already starting to invest in white-light digital projectors, he says. And once theaters have made a huge capital investment in the projectors, they won’t be looking for a replacement.

“If you had [a laser digital cinema projector] working today and could demonstrate it, it would be huge. But in another two years, it might be too late,” he says.

Very interesting, BC.

For those who did not read this section:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1076476

The article above gives a good explanation for the vibrating screen. When I first mentioned on the forum that the screen was in motion, I did so with the understanding that the reason for this was protection for the eyes from laser damage. Clearly the gentleman at Mits. who gave me this explanation got it wrong.

Uhmmm....has any Laservue been released yet?
Or did I do the right thing by buying the 73835 last summer?

Uhmmm....has any Laservue been released yet?
Or did I do the right thing by buying the 73835 last summer?

What's your experience with the 73835?

The 65 nch LaserVue is out. Saw one at my local Ultimate Electronics

Uhmmm....has any Laservue been released yet?
Or did I do the right thing by buying the 73835 last summer?
ummmm...3 months ago

What's your experience with the 73835?
Works fine.
Although PQ could be a bit better.
And the fan and/or color wheel is a bit loud.

Works fine.
Although PQ could be a bit better.
And the fan and/or color wheel is a bit loud.

Oink,

The PQ I would agree with. I'm not sure that the PQ is as good as my old Sony KDF-60XS955, but it's certainly pretty decent.

I don't hear my colour wheel or fan. Well, I do hear the fan when I shut. Actually, the fan on the 805 is the loudest thing and even that quietens down once it been running for a min or so.

Seggers

Oink,

The PQ I would agree with. I'm not sure that the PQ is as good as my old Sony KDF-60XS955, but it's certainly pretty decent.

I don't hear my colour wheel or fan. Well, I do hear the fan when I shut. Actually, the fan on the 805 is the loudest thing and even that quietens down once it been running for a min or so.

Seggers

This might give some stength to the argument that calibration should be done on these sets.

Originally, when I went to see the Laservue, the 73835 looked decent but not great in comparison to the Samsung 55 inch LED backlit display... a display which impressed me.

Recently, at a Best Buy Magnolia near me I compared the 73835 again with the Samsung. In this setting, with a good HD input, the 73835 looked as good as the Samsung, with the advantage of having more screen real estate.

Interesting, no?

The 65 nch LaserVue is out. Saw one at my local Ultimate Electronics

I wish I could say and do the same, but UE lasted only a short time in Dallas before they closed up shop a couple years ago and sold the store nearest us to Best Buy - which, despite having a Magnolia store inside, still has no LaserVue to show or sell.

This might give some stength to the argument that calibration should be done on these sets.

...

Interesting, no?

Very interesting.

My set is scheduled for an ISF calibration on Friday....

Seggers

Oink,

The PQ I would agree with. I'm not sure that the PQ is as good as my old Sony KDF-60XS955, but it's certainly pretty decent.

I don't hear my colour wheel or fan. Well, I do hear the fan when I shut. Actually, the fan on the 805 is the loudest thing and even that quietens down once it been running for a min or so.

Seggers

Wow! I replaced my 60XS955 with a 65" Panny plasma and moved the Sony into my daughter's room. Are you saying that the laservue doesn't look as good as the XS? I had a brand new optical block recently put inside and the set is calibrated but my plasma still blows it out of the water as far as the picture goes.

Wow! I replaced my 60XS955 with a 65" Panny plasma and moved the Sony into my daughter's room. Are you saying that the laservue doesn't look as good as the XS? I had a brand new optical block recently put inside and the set is calibrated but my plasma still blows it out of the water as far as the picture goes.

Nope, never seen the LV in person.

We were talking about the Mits 73835 and the 60xs955.

Seggers

GL with your calibration seggers, hope it makes a big difference. I'm still waiting to buy me a set, going to wait to see what CES brings me this year :). Hoping, but doubtful, that the 2nd gen LV will be out and the prices are significantly lower. If not I may go for a Kuro.

GL with your calibration seggers, hope it makes a big difference. I'm still waiting to buy me a set, going to wait to see what CES brings me this year :). Hoping, but doubtful, that the 2nd gen LV will be out and the prices are significantly lower. If not I may go for a Kuro.

I agree with you 100% Want to buy the 73835 but everytime I look at it at best buy ,leaves me a little flat? If I'm wrong let me know

A calibrated DLP Mitsubishi is like a totally different animal. No other display that I know changes so much after a calibration. Factory settings make the Mitsu look like a very poor and cheap TV. "Torch mode" is normally what we see at the stores, maybe because that's what they think the Joe Six-Pack want.
For those considering a Mitsu DLP, I strongly suggest you take a look at a calibrated set. Even the basic calibration can make a huge difference.

Have they fixed the dust/light engine failures in the Mitsu DLPs yet? Its was as bad of a probkeas the OB failures in Sony SXRDs.

i think many of those questions could be easily answered in the mits 2008 dlp threads

i think many of those questions could be easily answered in the mits 2008 dlp threads

That's true but how can we discuss something we can't see ? At least on this side of the country the LV is still a ghost.

That's true but how can we discuss something we can't see ? At least on this side of the country the LV is still a ghost.
Still a ghost here too, but why should that mean that discussion of the non-LV DLP's should happen here? Posting the questions in the appropriate thread serves a bunch of purposes - they're more likely to get answered, people with the same TV are more likely to benefit from the Q&A, and it keeps the other thread (this one) a bit more on-topic. If there's nothing new to discuss LV related, there's no harm in letting this thread lay dormant. Those who are interested will have a subscription to the thread and won't have a difficult time finding it when there's something new to say.

That all said, I have an interest in both topics (I own a WD-65835) and would like to at least be able to see a LaserVue in person, but don't know of any place in the Boston area to see one.

I agree, gsr.

I started posting on this thread because I was interested in the Laservue, although my concern at first had to do with the safety of the technology for the eyes. I've found that one has to be vigilant on one's own...that sometimes companies aren't aware of all problems at the outset.

After that, and after seeing the Laservue, questions about PQ became important. But given everyone's desire for a big and great display, comparisons, it seems to me, become inevitable. Comparisons with the bulb cousins of the Laservue...the 65835 and 73835 seem most logical. After all, there needs to be a perceptible improvement of the Laservue over its bulb version for the whole thing to make sense. I think a little latitude in discussion is a good thing for a forum.

Happy New Year, and may everybody drive smartly.

I started posting on this thread because I was interested in the Laservue, although my concern at first had to do with the safety of the technology for the eyes. I've found that one has to be vigilant on one's own...that sometimes companies aren't aware of all problems at the outset.

After that, and after seeing the Laservue, questions about PQ became important. But given everyone's desire for a big and great display, comparisons, it seems to me, become inevitable. Comparisons with the bulb cousins of the Laservue...the 65835 and 73835 seem most logical. After all, there needs to be a perceptible improvement of the Laservue over its bulb version for the whole thing to make sense. I think a little latitude in discussion is a good thing for a forum.

Happy New Year, and may everybody drive smartly.
Absolutely, it's just that it's a slippery slope as the discussion seemed to be turning into a support thread for the other sets when there's already a thread for that purpose elsewhere on this forum. Comparisons make perfect sense, but questions about how to use specific features, etc. on the other sets really belong elsewhere. I'm obviously not a moderator - just stating my opinion :).

i think many of those questions could be easily answered in the mits 2008 dlp threads

Considering people that are looking at for the LV and then settling for the Mitsu's DLP (there has to be several hundred posts on this thread about the other DLPs), I think its very relevant to find out if the Light Engine Problems have been fixed in the latest models - a simple yes or no would have sufficed. Even owners of the sets with the failures are not aware of what is going on - and one should be able to realize the shortfalls of all the different sets (whether speckle, correct color reproduction or light engine failures) which may make the speckle issue more acceptable overall.

GL with your calibration seggers, hope it makes a big difference. I'm still waiting to buy me a set, going to wait to see what CES brings me this year :). Hoping, but doubtful, that the 2nd gen LV will be out and the prices are significantly lower. If not I may go for a Kuro.

Well, I'm going to further derail this thread and say

"Vili!, it's good to see you again me old china!" :D

I thought you'd dropped off the face of the earth.

GL with the Kuro. You'll have a new BFF at the outset.... :p

Seggers

Considering people that are looking at for the LV and then settling for the Mitsu's DLP (there has to be several hundred posts on this thread about the other DLPs), I think its very relevant to find out if the Light Engine Problems have been fixed in the latest models - a simple yes or no would have sufficed. Even owners of the sets with the failures are not aware of what is going on - and one should be able to realize the shortfalls of all the different sets (whether speckle, correct color reproduction or light engine failures) which may make the speckle issue more acceptable overall.

huh?

can anyone translate that for me?

Haha, thanks seggers!

I've still been around reading pretty much every day, but haven't posted very much lately. I'm starting to venture into audio (which I know nothing about) and considering upgrading my speakers as well. At the moment I'm just using an Onkyo HTIB with a Bic H-100 sub. To me it sounds fine, but I want to be amazed (on a budget of course!). I have a bit of money coming in in about 2 weeks so we will see.

There aren't any places near me to audition speakers either (go figure...I had to drive 3 hours to see the 73835). I wish more people on here lived near NW TN so I could take a trip to their house and see their setup.

Pretty soon CES will be here and maybe something new will be thrown in the mix and I will upgrade this year. I'll actually have the cash, just depends if the tech is nice enough for this scrooge to warrant dropping the cash!

fwiw:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15452259&posted=1#post15452259

Bad news for laservue it seems.

While the rumor of Best Buy eliminating RPTV from their stores is troubling, it raises the question as to what category the LaserVue falls into.

Technically, it 'is' RPTV, but physically it borders upon that of a flat panel (providing of course a structure is suited for mounting a 10" thick display on a wall).

Call me disillusion, but unless current LCD (or upcoming OLED) comes through with some major low cost/high volume manufacturing for large displays, I can't see RPTV going completely extinct.

There are many of us for which the thickness of the display just doesn't matter all that much as having an affordable, 'quality display', at a size suitable for larger viewing areas.

As much as I would love to go to a front projection solution, such a change would require a major overhaul of my recently finished basement.

Right now, the 73" Mits DLP is looking pretty attractive. :)

Laservue is rear projection.

Don't expect to see any more sets anytime soon. According to Mitsubishi, they have halted production and we won't see any more until March.

If this is true and from the declining amount of RP in most Best Buy stores, it is, this action will see a reaction from the RP manufacturers that there is no need for them to continue production. I see Samsung leaving first as they must sell far more FP sets than RP sets. Mitsubishi will probably be the last as they don't have much presence in flat panels and need to see until they can transition to more of a FP presence. I also think this will make up Mitsubishi's mind for them that LaserVue is not worth bring back as there will be fewer places to sell it.

Oh well I will be one of those grabbing up a close out for my parents. They have an old Sony 65" CRT RP, that is dying a slow death and definitely not worth repairing.

There are essentially no RP manufacturers any more except Mitsubishi. Most everyone else is dropping that product category.

There are essentially no RP manufacturers any more except Mitsubishi. Most everyone else is dropping that product category.

Samsung has stopped production? (Familiar with the rumors, but do you know for sure?)

Samsung has stopped production? (Familiar with the rumors, but do you know for sure?)

well unfortunately its not looking good for samsung. the ces list does not include any rptvs last year they said they would continue rptv in 2008 and 2009 they would be looking at the market.

the mits laser is priced out of most buyers pockets in the market.

bestbuys rumored to be no longer carrying rptv

circuit city will be lucky to even be open by summer.

and walmart doesnt even sell rptvs anymore after the rca ones.

the online market is small and profit margins for rptv are rather low.


i hope we are all wrong, and samsung continues witha ces surprise.

It would truly be a shame. So many people aren't informed as to what a great deal DLPs are.

It would truly be a shame. So many people aren't informed as to what a great deal DLPs are.

i agree 100%

i was holding out for a new samsung . right now im gonna ether go 67 inch led (wanted a 72) or a 73 mits bulb (not wanting to go bulb or deal with color wheels but i want a bigger set)

laservue not my price range (not home enough to enjoy and single)

It would truly be a shame. So many people aren't informed as to what a great deal DLPs are.

Only if it's 73" or larger and cheap. There is no way they can compete with plasmas for the same money and size. I have a 73927 and a Panasonic 50" plasma and the picture on the plasma is much better.

Only if it's 73" or larger and cheap. There is no way they can compete with plasmas for the same money and size. I have a 73927 and a Panasonic 50" plasma and the picture on the plasma is much better.

Correct, but unless you're talking about Laservues, which I was not, and which are a subset entirely of their own, they are not the same size and not the same price.

For a lot less money, you get a much bigger screen, and damn near as good picture--better in some ways.

So it's crazy to let it die, at least from a consumer standpoint.

Not from a business one, I suppose. :(

It was a really good comparison. I loved the KURO but the laservue shows more detail on all the different sources ,underworld and live football. We were watching happy feet and the feathers had more detail on the LaserVue. The Penguins eyes were brown on the KURO but on the LaserVue you seen detail in the eyes. You could see different shades of brown and blacks speckles it was unbelievable. The football game was good but not mind blowing. The salesman said it depends on what kind of cameras they are shooting with at the games. He then started telling me which stations use the best cameras. My takeaway was that the the quality of the LaserVue is so good that you even notice this.
As far a "speckling" or shimmering or seen it in the blue sky with the LaserVue and I noticed it in the KURO!! The only difference was the LaserVue showed it more because of the detail. I think this set is only as good as the source material. But it will also show how bad some material really is!! I intend to buy the LaserVue within the next week.

As far as sugg. retail $6999 this dealer this dealer was immediately willing to knock off a $1000. This dealer has sold 3 and he said those people love them. I read in the posts about them suspending building these sets it doesn't alarm me because of the economy. . Mitsubishi has spent a lot of money ,time and R&D on this set and they will not let it die very easily. GM , Chrysler and Ford closed down for a while and they will build cars again .

As far as sugg. retail $6999 this dealer this dealer was immediately willing to knock off a $1000.

$1,000?! WOW! That is the first I had heard of that. If true, good for you, but I fear that it may indicate an as yet un-announced discontinuation of the product.

...or, if I want to be an optimist today, an upcoming price cut preceding a second generation. ;)

Even at 46, I am a dreamer. :)

Spence

$1,000?! WOW! That is the first I had heard of that. If true, good for you, but I fear that it may indicate an as yet un-announced discontinuation of the product.

...or, if I want to be an optimist today, an upcoming price cut preceding a second generation. ;)

Even at 46, I am a dreamer. :)

Spence

If you go back earlier in the thread there were other mentions of a $1000.00 discount soon after Laservues became available.

I am not all that impressed with plasmas that I've seen, except for the wide viewing angle that they have. The picture on the ones that I've seen seems soft to me. (can't speak about the NEO PDPs) Also there are sets that have very deep black levels, but at the expense of decreased overall brightness. Home Theater Magazine finally posted the review of the 65835 and noted that its deep black levels were matched by very good brightness and contrast.

If someone can show me a very large flat screen that is affordable, and has great longevity I'd be interested. I don't like the idea that the display that I buy today is beginning to dim from day one. With the Laservue (theoretically) the lasers do not dim appreciably over time. With bulb dlps the seeming disadvantage of bulb replacement yields the advantage that a new bulb brings you back to original screen brightness. LEDs, according to a tech with whom I spoke, do dim, but slowly.

Just my two cents. which is now worth 1.121 cents.

Since the 73" has still yet to be released it will probably be announced at CES or discontinued all together. Maybe since they are knocking off MSRP on the smaller screen the 73" will be the 7k MSRP.

There are no plans for a 73" version of the current set. There will be a second generation of sets hopefully by the end of 2009 that will reportedly include 65", 75", & 85" sets that are planned for mass production, unlike the current model. As I understand it form Mitsubishi, production has halted for some reason and we should not expect any more sets until March.

There are no plans for a 73" version of the current set. There will be a second generation of sets hopefully by the end of 2009 that will reportedly include 65", 75", & 85" sets that are planned for mass production, unlike the current model. As I understand it form Mitsubishi, production has halted for some reason and we should not expect any more sets until March.

Do you know if the potential 2009 sets will be more reasonably priced?

There are no plans for a 73" version of the current set. There will be a second generation of sets hopefully by the end of 2009 that will reportedly include 65", 75", & 85" sets that are planned for mass production, unlike the current model. As I understand it form Mitsubishi, production has halted for some reason and we should not expect any more sets until March.


Any idea about prices for the 75 inch and 85 inch sets? Even rumors?

Any refinements that you know about in this second iteration?

Thanks

It was a really good comparison. I loved the KURO but the laservue shows more detail on all the different sources ,underworld and live football. We were watching happy feet and the feathers had more detail on the LaserVue. The Penguins eyes were brown on the KURO but on the LaserVue you seen detail in the eyes. You could see different shades of brown and blacks speckles it was unbelievable. The football game was good but not mind blowing. The salesman said it depends on what kind of cameras they are shooting with at the games. He then started telling me which stations use the best cameras. My takeaway was that the the quality of the LaserVue is so good that you even notice this.
As far a "speckling" or shimmering or seen it in the blue sky with the LaserVue and I noticed it in the KURO!! The only difference was the LaserVue showed it more because of the detail. I think this set is only as good as the source material. But it will also show how bad some material really is!! I intend to buy the LaserVue within the next week.

As far as sugg. retail $6999 this dealer this dealer was immediately willing to knock off a $1000. This dealer has sold 3 and he said those people love them. I read in the posts about them suspending building these sets it doesn't alarm me because of the economy. . Mitsubishi has spent a lot of money ,time and R&D on this set and they will not let it die very easily. GM , Chrysler and Ford closed down for a while and they will build cars again .

Just because they spent alot of time & money doesn't mean they will continue to throw good money after bad . More like cut your losses and run.

There are no plans for a 73" version of the current set. There will be a second generation of sets hopefully by the end of 2009 that will reportedly include 65", 75", & 85" sets that are planned for mass production, unlike the current model. As I understand it form Mitsubishi, production has halted for some reason and we should not expect any more sets until March.


If that is true then in my mind that relates to Laservue-D.O.A.:rolleyes:

I don't know why people want to kill this set befor it has been out for mass marketing. If the picture quallity is as good or better than Pioneer KURO, does 10" thick or dlp really matter? So far all the people who bought this set love it ,At that PRICE! When it is mass produced and the price comes down,(and it will),I see alot of people interested in these. It's Not Like I have anything against Pioneer. I own Pioneer Elite SC-09 reciever and 05FD blu-ray. Was just looking at Pioneer elite Kuro to day. 60 " $6000.00 and it doen't even come with a table stand, $400.00 more. Just because its thin or plasma. Sorry Until I see it & if the picture quality is that good I don't care if its 10 or 15 inches thick or dpl. Anyway thats my 2 &1?2 cents worth

It was a really good comparison. I loved the KURO but the laservue shows more detail on all the different sources ,underworld and live football. We were watching happy feet and the feathers had more detail on the LaserVue. The Penguins eyes were brown on the KURO but on the LaserVue you seen detail in the eyes. You could see different shades of brown and blacks speckles it was unbelievable. The football game was good but not mind blowing. The salesman said it depends on what kind of cameras they are shooting with at the games. He then started telling me which stations use the best cameras. My takeaway was that the the quality of the LaserVue is so good that you even notice this.
As far a "speckling" or shimmering or seen it in the blue sky with the LaserVue and I noticed it in the KURO!! The only difference was the LaserVue showed it more because of the detail. I think this set is only as good as the source material. But it will also show how bad some material really is!! I intend to buy the LaserVue within the next week.

As far as sugg. retail $6999 this dealer this dealer was immediately willing to knock off a $1000. This dealer has sold 3 and he said those people love them. I read in the posts about them suspending building these sets it doesn't alarm me because of the economy. . Mitsubishi has spent a lot of money ,time and R&D on this set and they will not let it die very easily. GM , Chrysler and Ford closed down for a while and they will build cars again .


From the 30 minutes I have spent with LaserVue I can tell you that it can't touch the Elite 151. As a matter of fact, as it looks now I don't think its as good as my 70XBR2. I do think it is a good set, but it hasn't distinguished itself from the crowd, especially for the price. If Mitsubishi had more time maybe it could become outstanding, but not now.

Do you know if the potential 2009 sets will be more reasonably priced?

I would call them 2010 sets, since they will not be seen until late 2009, at best. No idea what the price will be, but I hear references to "mass produced" as opposed to "limited production" of the first generation. Mitsubishi is usually very tight lipped about features or performance details of coming products.

From the 30 minutes I have spent with LaserVue I can tell you that it can't touch the Elite 151. As a matter of fact, as it looks now I don't think its as good as my 70XBR2. I do think it is a good set, but it hasn't distinguished itself from the crowd, especially for the price. If Mitsubishi had more time maybe it could become outstanding, but not now.


You should see a modified 70” XBR2 with 50%-70% lower black level, increased contrast and corrected gamma, Laservue is not in that league.

It could very well be that the second generation sets, similarly tweaked, will be far better. If you recall, Sony had quite a few problems with the first of the SXRD RP sets. Frankly, I can't judge the relative performance without having a unit to test and calibrate. No one can. It seems common sense, but I guess I will have to make the point again...with such limited information and limited availability, we will be waiting a while to get a good idea of what this technology can do. At least this is true for me, without the benefit of as much experience and analytical ability as others here.

You should see a modified 70” XBR2 with 50%-70% lower black level, increased contrast and corrected gamma, Laservue is not in that league.

The LaserVue is hands down the best HDTV I've ever seen which surpassed the Kuro.

I assume you're talking about the rear projection XBR2. I know this is all subjective and it was a great display a couple years ago, however, I'm not so sure it can compete with the latest technology including LaserVue.

The LaserVue is hands down the best HDTV I've ever seen which surpassed the Kuro.

I assume you're talking about the rear projection XBR2. I know this is all subjective and it was a great display a couple years ago, however, I'm not so sure it can compete with the latest technology including LaserVue.

You haven't seen a calibrated Kuro. Detail - Kuro, black level - absolutely Kuro. Processing according to almost everyone who has seen this set said there are sparkles, Kuro has no sparkles. As a matter of fact RP cannot right now touch a good FP such as a Kuro, Samsung 950, Sony XBR8 or the new Sharp LED LCD's. Maybe with more development, Mitsubishi can get this set to rise above the competition, but time is quickly running out for the RP format. It would be unfortunate if they make the greatest RP set ever, with nowhere to sell it ! :eek:

You should see a modified 70” XBR2 with 50%-70% lower black level, increased contrast and corrected gamma, Laservue is not in that league.

I have been meaning to get my XBR2 calibrated, but with the OB thing rearing it's ugly head every year or so............

As a matter of fact RP cannot right now touch a good FP such as a Kuro, Samsung 950, Sony XBR8 or the new Sharp LED LCD's.

You need to really do some additional critical viewing.

You need to really do some additional critical viewing.

I have done a lot of critical viewing and have owned a lot of sets. Which rear projection sets are better than the best flat panels?

You haven't seen a calibrated Kuro. Detail - Kuro, black level - absolutely Kuro. Processing according to almost everyone who has seen this set said there are sparkles, Kuro has no sparkles. As a matter of fact RP cannot right now touch a good FP such as a Kuro, Samsung 950, Sony XBR8 or the new Sharp LED LCD's. Maybe with more development, Mitsubishi can get this set to rise above the competition, but time is quickly running out for the RP format. It would be unfortunate if they make the greatest RP set ever, with nowhere to sell it ! :eek:

Aren't all of those LCDs you mention smaller and more limited in viewing angle? Outside of the Kuro, I suspect there could indeed be some touching going on...

I have been meaning to get my XBR2 calibrated, but with the OB thing rearing it's ugly head every year or so............

I am not talking about calibration, which can do little other then clean up the grey scale and white point. I am talking about modifications like blacking out the interior of the cabinet, installing shields to block the inherent light leakage from the optical block, installing a neutral density filter to drop light output and black level 50%, reprogramming the iris system, and lastly but very importantly using a PC to correct gamma, maximise contrast and allow virtually perfect grey scale tracking, all of which are not possible without the use of a PC as the video source.
An SXRD set up like that is a big step up from the standard set and takes the SXRD to a whole new level.
While the black level is not up to G9 Kuro standard (its about G8 level), color detail and resolution is better and there is zero dither noise, something that DLP and Plasma are both susceptible to. I very much enjoy the smooth clean image, free of the harsh pixelated “digital” look so common on flat panels, low quality video is handled exceptionally well which is very important to me.

The 65” Laservue was never an option for me, just as the Kuro is not due to their small size. I would be interested in a 73” but not if it exhibits laser sparkle or dither-pulse width modulation noise.
I live in hope that the rumoured 80”- 85” Panasonic-Pioneer NEO PDP’s turn up before my 70” SXRD becomes unserviceable and that they are free of visible problems because I really don’t see a laser illuminated DLP in my future, even if its dirt cheap.

As my prior posts will explain, I've spent considerable time with the Laservue and directly compared it to the Elite 151. While neither is perfect, the Laservue has a problem that most refer to as speckle and has a black level closer to a typical DLP RPTV than the Elite 151. While the Laservue was not ISF calibrated, I did go into the user settings and improve the image as best I could under showroom conditions. Unless an ISF calibration can perform a miracle, the Elite has a far better black level, more accurate color and a better viewing angle. The Laservue has some interesting color capability, accurate or not, but other than that the Elite 151 is by far the better set.

To my knowledge a full blown proffessional review of the Laservue has not appeared. Production has apparently been halted. Who knows what Mits is up to or why. I want to buy a set that has 9G Kuro quality, but larger, less weight, less energy drain and for a bit less cash. In other words, exactly what the Laservue was supposed to be. My wish is they realized the first generation had issues and they decided to regroup and come out with a Kuro killer in generation 2. But, the set I've actually seen isn't in the same league with the Elite 151. Perhaps we'll find out what Mits is up to later this week at CES.

As my prior posts will explain, I've spent considerable time with the Laservue and directly compared it to the Elite 151. While neither is perfect, the Laservue has a problem that most refer to as speckle and has a black level closer to a typical DLP RPTV than the Elite 151. While the Laservue was not ISF calibrated, I did go into the user settings and improve the image as best I could under showroom conditions. Unless an ISF calibration can perform a miracle, the Elite has a far better black level, more accurate color and a better viewing angle. The Laservue has some interesting color capability, accurate or not, but other than that the Elite 151 is by far the better set.

To my knowledge a full blown proffessional review of the Laservue has not appeared. Production has apparently been halted. Who knows what Mits is up to or why. I want to buy a set that has 9G Kuro quality, but larger, less weight, less energy drain and for a bit less cash. In other words, exactly what the Laservue was supposed to be. My wish is they realized the first generation had issues and they decided to regroup and come out with a Kuro killer in generation 2. But, the set I've actually seen isn't in the same league with the Elite 151. Perhaps we'll find out what Mits is up to later this week at CES.

Can't color accuracy be dialed in quite precisely on a DLP? (That is my understanding of Samsung DLPs. And I thought someone had said the LaserView had a mode with normal color...)

To my knowledge a full blown proffessional review of the Laservue has not appeared. - Perhaps we'll find out what Mits is up to later this week at CES.

I posted some reviews on the first post, not sure if HDTVGuru is up to snuff.

Here's hoping for lasers at CES!

I am not talking about calibration, which can do little other then clean up the grey scale and white point. I am talking about modifications like blacking out the interior of the cabinet, installing shields to block the inherent light leakage from the optical block, installing a neutral density filter to drop light output and black level 50%, reprogramming the iris system, and lastly but very importantly using a PC to correct gamma, maximise contrast and allow virtually perfect grey scale tracking, all of which are not possible without the use of a PC as the video source.
An SXRD set up like that is a big step up from the standard set and takes the SXRD to a whole new level.
While the black level is not up to G9 Kuro standard (its about G8 level), color detail and resolution is better and there is zero dither noise, something that DLP and Plasma are both susceptible to. I very much enjoy the smooth clean image, free of the harsh pixelated “digital” look so common on flat panels, low quality video is handled exceptionally well which is very important to me.

The 65” Laservue was never an option for me, just as the Kuro is not due to their small size. I would be interested in a 73” but not if it exhibits laser sparkle or dither-pulse width modulation noise.
I live in hope that the rumoured 80”- 85” Panasonic-Pioneer NEO PDP’s turn up before my 70” SXRD becomes unserviceable and that they are free of visible problems because I really don’t see a laser illuminated DLP in my future, even if its dirt cheap.

Actually, calibration is about a lot more than gray scale and white point. YOu can also make the corrections you described in outboard processors like the Lumagen, not just a PC. In fact, doing so in a PC requires a lot more difficulty, though it can be less expensive.

Can't color accuracy be dialed in quite precisely on a DLP? (That is my understanding of Samsung DLPs. And I thought someone had said the LaserView had a mode with normal color...)

It depends on the set, and varies greatly by brand and model. The Samsung sets have generally had greater availability of color management controls, but not all of them have. The Mits sets have been tricky and you can get them close, but not dead on, generally. Again, it varies with models. Factory modes on Mits sets in the past have not met industry standards and calibration was necessary. The Laservue is likely similar, as much of the chassis is reportedly very similar to other DLPs that they have produced, but until a pro gets a hold of one to calibrate and reports the results, we do not know where the sets will fall. A serious question that is still open is the spectrum of the laser sources. If it is narrow as lasers typically are, and the color management system does not take that into account, you could end up with potentially great saturation in the primaries but other colors may not track as well. We just don't know until some calibration reports and spectral measurements are available.