I am not talking about calibration, which can do little other then clean up the grey scale and white point. I am talking about modifications like blacking out the interior of the cabinet, installing shields to block the inherent light leakage from the optical block, installing a neutral density filter to drop light output and black level 50%, reprogramming the iris system, and lastly but very importantly using a PC to correct gamma, maximise contrast and allow virtually perfect grey scale tracking, all of which are not possible without the use of a PC as the video source.
An SXRD set up like that is a big step up from the standard set and takes the SXRD to a whole new level.
While the black level is not up to G9 Kuro standard (its about G8 level), color detail and resolution is better and there is zero dither noise, something that DLP and Plasma are both susceptible to. I very much enjoy the smooth clean image, free of the harsh pixelated “digital” look so common on flat panels, low quality video is handled exceptionally well which is very important to me.

The 65” Laservue was never an option for me, just as the Kuro is not due to their small size. I would be interested in a 73” but not if it exhibits laser sparkle or dither-pulse width modulation noise.
I live in hope that the rumoured 80”- 85” Panasonic-Pioneer NEO PDP’s turn up before my 70” SXRD becomes unserviceable and that they are free of visible problems because I really don’t see a laser illuminated DLP in my future, even if its dirt cheap.

Wow, quite extensive. I would imagine some calibrators would do that.....for a price. Although like I said with the OB thing a little touch and go not sure I would invest too much money into a calibration until/unless Sony can get their act together on that part.

Can't color accuracy be dialed in quite precisely on a DLP? (That is my understanding of Samsung DLPs. And I thought someone had said the LaserView had a mode with normal color...)

Green cannot be made accurate with the current firmware of the LV and green makes up over 70% of white in REC 709.

Unless an ISF calibration can perform a miracle, the Elite has a far better black level, more accurate color and a better viewing angle. The Laservue has some interesting color capability, accurate or not, but other than that the Elite 151 is by far the better set.

Put a colored filter on the screen as Pioneer does (think of it as Window Tint for a car or sunglasses) and you could pull the black levels down like the 9G Kuro does - however, as most know, tinted glass also changes the color and accuracy of same.

Green cannot be made accurate with the current firmware of the LV and green makes up over 70% of white in REC 709.



Put a colored filter on the screen as Pioneer does (think of it as Window Tint for a car or sunglasses) and you could pull the black levels down like the 9G Kuro does - however, as most know, tinted glass also changes the color and accuracy of same.

That's a point I was making about sets with deep black levels that give up brightness in exchange.

I also don't think 10 inches of depth is any kind of dealbreaker.

Lastly these are displays we're talking about...not sacred writings. No reason to get emotions up about "competing sets." Everybody sees things differently, and hopefully the market will bear all of these different needs and perceptions.

I do think that there are many people out there who want a theatre experience...i.e. a large display...in non-dedicated rooms and at a reasonable price. I know that I do.

The salesmen at this store says that the Kuro out of the box is a better picture "out of the box". He said ALL plasmas degrade some faster then others. He has seen plasmas come back in after 2-3 years noticeable dimmer. I asked even the KURO and he said it's still a phosphor technology and it will also. He also had an amusing story that someoe bought the KURO and was back in a few months later. The salesmen remembered him and asked why he was buying another one he said " My 9 year old threw the WII remote through the screen!"
He then proceded to bang on the LaserVue screen and said it's a lot tougher screen. OMG. I am picking up Laervue this Sat. $58XX. And as far as waiting for 8" more wouldn't stop me from buying it.

You haven't seen a calibrated Kuro. Detail - Kuro, black level - absolutely Kuro. Processing according to almost everyone who has seen this set said there are sparkles, Kuro has no sparkles. As a matter of fact RP cannot right now touch a good FP such as a Kuro, Samsung 950, Sony XBR8 or the new Sharp LED LCD's. Maybe with more development, Mitsubishi can get this set to rise above the competition, but time is quickly running out for the RP format. It would be unfortunate if they make the greatest RP set ever, with nowhere to sell it ! :eek:

I haven't seen any sparkles on the LaserVue. Perhaps it was early models and has been fixed in recent months.

I am not sure they were "speckles" or shimmering being caused source material. The reason I say that is because I could detect the same in the Kuro but more subdued. Garbage in is garbage out!! But I'll honestly tell you the picture was awesome.

just got this e-mail from mitsubishi Thank you for contacting Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. We are pleased to be able to assist our customers via our website. Here is the information that you have requested:





MDEA has temporarily suspended production of our LaserVue televisions due to a problem with the manufacturing equipment used to produce LaserVue TVs

Mitsubishi Electronic engineers are taking the necessary action to ensure that we resume production as quickly as possible, while maintaining the highest standards for product quality and reliability



MDEA expects that production should resume by March, 2009. MDEA is doing everything possible to resume production earlier


Regards





MDEA
for all who think laser vue is D.O.A.

just got this e-mail from mitsubishi Thank you for contacting Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. We are pleased to be able to assist our customers via our website. Here is the information that you have requested:





MDEA has temporarily suspended production of our LaserVue televisions due to a problem with the manufacturing equipment used to produce LaserVue TVs

Mitsubishi Electronic engineers are taking the necessary action to ensure that we resume production as quickly as possible, while maintaining the highest standards for product quality and reliability



MDEA expects that production should resume by March, 2009. MDEA is doing everything possible to resume production earlier


Regards





MDEA
for all who think laser vue is D.O.A.

I don't believe the airlines when the cancel my flight due to "mechanical failure" either.

i don't believe the airlines when the cancel my flight due to "mechanical failure" either.


So true ! :D

Actually, calibration is about a lot more than gray scale and white point. YOu can also make the corrections you described in outboard processors like the Lumagen, not just a PC. In fact, doing so in a PC requires a lot more difficulty, though it can be less expensive.

I am not familiar with the exact abilities of stand alone video processors, but I would be surprised if they could do what I need.

Its not normally possible to calibrate an SXRD for maximum native contrast ratio because pushing the contrast up beyond about 85 causes non linearity issues at the top of the grey scale. These errors cannot be corrected without compromising the rest of the gray scale and gamma curve using user level or service menu adjustments so SXRD’s are normally calibrated with the contrast “Picture” control set to around 85. The PC allows me to run the contrast control at Max while maintaining color accuracy at the top end and an accurate gamma curve. Since the SXRD does not clip levels even with contrast set to “Max” I have the PC remap video levels so that peak video white (level 235) is scaled up to about 250 (just short of clipping), this not only gives a significant increase in native contrast ratio but also maximized light output which is important with an ND2 filter fitted, as it cuts output by 50%. The upside is that it also lowers the black level by 50% and does not affect color accuracy. The lower light output also virtually eliminates SSE.

Since I have used a PC as my only video source for the last 8 years it makes sense for me to utilize its power and flexibility to do what I need. Is there a video processor that allows adjustment of every video level between 0 and 255 on an individual RGB basis?

I don't believe the airlines when the cancel my flight due to "mechanical failure" either.

Then HAPPY FLYING

Wow, quite extensive. I would imagine some calibrators would do that.....for a price. Although like I said with the OB thing a little touch and go not sure I would invest too much money into a calibration until/unless Sony can get their act together on that part.

I am not aware of anyone, pro calibrator or otherwise that is doing what I am with an SXRD. When people find out they have to take their TV apart and irreversibly modify it, potentially invalidating the warranty, they loose interest.
Playing in the service menu is as far as most people and calibrators are prepared to go, but that definitely does not unleash the full potential of the SXRD.

I know many people are concerned about optical block failure, but it’s not a concern to me. It’s covered under warranty and even if I was denied warranty due to the modifications replacement is not expensive, I just put it down to running costs.
I have owned my SXRD for 2 years and expected to be replacing it by now as I anticipated something better being available. As it turns out that’s not the case and I expect I will have to wait at least another year before a suitable replacement is available, that looks like being an 80”-85” Plasma at this stage, but who knows what else is coming.

So true ! :D

This whole suspension of production has the Sony scenario written all over it. I'd imagine they would be embarrassed that this technology just can't get going and has landed with a thud. Again, Laservue-D.O.A.;)

This whole suspension of production has the Sony scenario written all over it. I'd imagine they would be embarrassed that this technology just can't get going and has landed with a thud. Again, Laservue-D.O.A.;)

With all respect, I think the situation with the SXRD was different. As much as I admired the SXRD, and was hoping for the next generation, there was a lawsuit against Sony for the green or yellow blob issues, and problems with the optical engine. Moreover, when I spoke with Sony salespeople it became clear to me that the sets were being cancelled, rather than production halted.

I was an LCOS fan. The notion of a million tiny mirrors in constant motion in DLP made me nervous. I'm over that now.

Well the problem here is Mitsubishi has to decide if it is fiscally feasible for them to produce a LaserVue series. I am absolutely convinced, whether they are having mechanical difficulties or not, they are deciding if is going to be cost effective to produce these sets. CES will give them an opportunity to check out the competition and if FP sets can come in much lower than there probably will not be a market for LaserVue.

Since they are waiting so long to bring these sets back, I think that now they will have to be at different price points. I would say the 65" should be at no more than 3.5K MSRP and anything larger like a 75" let's say at 5K MSRP. They should also take them off price restriction and let the dealers charge what they want. Right now, no matter how good this technology is, they have to give consumers a reason to by an RP set, and cost per size(in comparison the FP) is the only way to do it.

Well the problem here is Mitsubishi has to decide if it is fiscally feasible for them to produce a LaserVue series. I am absolutely convinced, whether they are having mechanical difficulties or not, they are deciding if is going to be cost effective to produce these sets. CES will give them an opportunity to check out the competition and if FP sets can come in much lower than there probably will not be a market for LaserVue.

Since they are waiting so long to bring these sets back, I think that now they will have to be at different price points. I would say the 65" should be at no more than 3.5K MSRP and anything larger like a 75" let's say at 5K MSRP. They should also take them off price restriction and let the dealers charge what they want. Right now, no matter how good this technology is, they have to give consumers a reason to by an RP set, and cost per size(in comparison the FP) is the only way to do it.

even at those price ranges, it would be hard to sell in todays market. . now an 80+ inch set for say under 3500, 75 inch for under 2999 and a 65 inch for around 2000 would help them out some, although a little lower will make them stand out.

sure they will have great pic quality but they are just so thick (i dont care, that doesn't bother me, but the majority of people do, even though they will just put it on a stand and not on wall)

ideal price point would be around 3000 for an 80+ incher 2000-2400 for a 73 inch and 1700-2000 for a 65.

make the 80+ inch a 3 chip dlp set. sell this at the higher end stores magnola etc

and try to get the 65 and 73 inch into walmart just for mass appeal. throw in a free bluray player will all sets


if this was 2 or 3 years ago even 1 year ago the price points you mentioned wouldnt have been so bad. but with oled getting ready to move in with extremly thin and high quality displays 4k res tvs being shown, and sed might be getting a 2nd chance. that and the 60+ inch lcd and plasmas going into mass production in 2010 mits needs some massive price drops and upgrades


maybe they could just do a 65 and 73 inch set single chip dlp in the 1200-2300 range and have a 75 and 80 inch as a diamond series with 3 chip dlp 4k res for 3000-4000

offer non diamonds in walmart and target.

diamonds into bestbuy, magnola, circuit city (if circuit city is alive) as well as major appliance stores and home entertainment stores.

this way mits would be able to tackle both the mass buyers with the lower priced single chip 1080p laservue and then the higher end not the extreme high end market though with the 3000-4000 3 chip 4k res 75-80 inch sets.

then mits can just do laser front projection for the really high end market

Well the problem here is Mitsubishi has to decide if it is fiscally feasible for them to produce a LaserVue series. I am absolutely convinced, whether they are having mechanical difficulties or not, they are deciding if is going to be cost effective to produce these sets. CES will give them an opportunity to check out the competition and if FP sets can come in much lower than there probably will not be a market for LaserVue.

Since they are waiting so long to bring these sets back, I think that now they will have to be at different price points. I would say the 65" should be at no more than 3.5K MSRP and anything larger like a 75" let's say at 5K MSRP. They should also take them off price restriction and let the dealers charge what they want. Right now, no matter how good this technology is, they have to give consumers a reason to by an RP set, and cost per size(in comparison the FP) is the only way to do it.

Agreed. If they can't make margin at those prices, which is realistically the most they could expect to get, they'll just deep six the Laservue.

ideal price point would be around 3000 for an 80+ incher 2000-2400 for a 73 inch and 1700-2000 for a 65.
ideal for who? you?

why would they sell an 80inch for $3K when people are paying $3K for a 52inch?

ideal for who? you?

why would they sell an 80inch for $3K when people are paying $3K for a 52inch?

well you can get a 73 inch lamp based dlp set for less than 2500 already. its a rptv afterall and laser was originally supposed to be cheaper to manufacture. 52 inch ould be a lcd or plasma. and laservue isnt exactly superthin ya know.

ideal for who? you?

why would they sell an 80inch for $3K when people are paying $3K for a 52inch?

Volume

Why is everyone so convinced Mits can't sell these TV's at premium prices. I think there are a few things to take into consideration. The percentage of individuals that visit and post on forums such as this is very small compared to the general public.

The general public will consider a Laservue as new technology, expensive, and unique. If they market this set right I really think they will be able to sell this set. Let's face it marketing is what will sell. Marketing is the reason many manufacturers and products are able to get a premium price compared to other options. The well informed individuals that post here may not see the value, compared to other options. The general public will see a very unique premium product.

Just a thought

Barry

Why is everyone so convinced Mits can't sell these TV's at premium prices. I think there are a few things to take into consideration. The percentage of individuals that visit and post on forums such as this is very small compared to the general public.

The general public will consider a Laservue as new technology, expensive, and unique. If they market this set right I really think they will be able to sell this set. Let's face it marketing is what will sell. Marketing is the reason many manufacturers and products are able to get a premium price compared to other options. The well informed individuals that post here may not see the value, compared to other options. The general public will see a very unique premium product.

Just a thought

Barry


I totally disagree. General public will find the LV too expensive and will run to Costco to buy 3 60" plasma (Vizio) for the same money. If people on this forum rejects the LV, chances are the product is actually DOA.

I totally disagree. General public will find the LV too expensive and will run to Costco to buy 3 60" plasma (Vizio) for the same money. If people on this forum rejects the LV, chances are the product is actually DOA.

There is a market for all price ranges, if what you are saying is true then no one would buy Pioneer Kuro or Sony XBRs. If you have a budget of course you will shop for options within your budget. There will always be a market for what the public "percieves" as a premium product and will be willing to pay for it.

Thanks,
Barry

I totally disagree. General public will find the LV too expensive and will run to Costco to buy 3 60" plasma (Vizio) for the same money. If people on this forum rejects the LV, chances are the product is actually DOA.

I think you overestimate the relationship between this forum and the general market. There are lots of niches that are filled by very expensive products. You also probably overestimate the number of sets that Mitsubishi will be producing in this first generation. They are working hard on the second generation of sets and that is where the success or failure of the technology will be determined.

With virtually no competition in RP, Mitsubishi may actually increase sales as the RP segment decreases. Even if the laservue does not sell very well, having a unique technology as a flagship can generate a great deal of interest in the lamp based product, as we have seen already. What will kill Laservue and the Mitsubishi consumer line is if they have extensive technical problems with either line of sets. If the last few years of products prove to be as short-lived as the V26 DLP chassis sets (first generation of mass produced DLPs from Mitsubishi), they won't be in the business much longer.

It would seem a good idea to go upmarket with 70, 80, 90 or even 100” models where there is no competition; you can then charge pretty much whatever you like.
If people want a BIG screen they will pay the asking price or go without.
Leave the flat panel manufacturers to fight it out for the smaller cheaper models.

This all boils down to whether Mitsubishi can make enough on Laservue to justify it's existence. Remember they have to recoup, R&D costs, marketing costs, materials costs......etc. Will there be a small group who have/will buy this set ? Of course, Is it the magic number they need, I doubt it. If they are going to come out with a second generation, they better do it soon and do it cheap. People want flat panels, whether they hang them or not. Also there are rumors that BB(Magnolia too) will no longer sell RP sets after the 3rd qtr. That means Mitsubishi can make them all they want but there will be fewer and fewer places to sell them in the coming months. There are only a few seconds to go in the fourth qtr and Mitsubishi has one more play.... flat panels are in the lead.......all Mitsubishi has left is a Hail Mary to the end zone........they better make it a good one, or game over !

With virtually no competition in RP, Mitsubishi may actually increase sales as the RP segment decreases. Even if the laservue does not sell very well, having a unique technology as a flagship can generate a great deal of interest in the lamp based product, as we have seen already. What will kill Laservue and the Mitsubishi consumer line is if they have extensive technical problems with either line of sets. If the last few years of products prove to be as short-lived as the V26 DLP chassis sets (first generation of mass produced DLPs from Mitsubishi), they won't be in the business much longer.


Why do you think there is no competition on RP any longer ? Because other manufacturers already realized the obvious: They don't sell, period. They are big, look fat, old and picture gets soft after few months (lamp based sets).
As I said , the 73" would have a chance because it has no competition at this size/price. The 65" is a big market mistake, specially at the announced MSRP, niche or no niche. Do you have any idea how big Mitsubishi is ? They make submarines! Do you think they would bother selling just few units to a "niche" ? It's just a product that became a turkey and it happens even with the big guys . Why do you think Sony cancelled the last 70" RPTV, after the product had been on the press ?

If the set performs well enough to justify its existence, there will be no shortage of dealers to sell it. In fact, if it only ends up in specialty dealers who can sell and support it properly, it may benefit.

All of this is speculation, however, as we have not the information needed to know. The first generation is the first taste of this technology, and it has not yet received the testing and reviews needed to get to know it well enough. The second generation is ayear away and it will actually determine much of the discussion here.

Wow....second generation a year away ? Do you really think in a year anyone will still want an expensive rp set? Or better yet they will have enough stores to sell it ?

Good question, but I suspect that the emphasis on siz/price ratios will keep a segment of the market for RP. Mitsubishi is counting on this, and the expectation that flat panels in large sizes will not be competitive in price. Sales of RP were about 18% of the market last year, but that was with multiple vendors. Mitsubishi's share of that was relatively small, so even if the segment share shrinks, their sales could increase because they are the only player.

I warned long ago that LaserVue could be a last gasp for the Mitsubishi consumer division, if it did not stand out. It still could, but I think it will take another generation to play out, as they test the market for their concept of remaining "the Big Screen company." They may pull it off or they may not. I continue to feel that they could make it easier if they provided better support for high end dealers and for proper calibration of their sets. They have alienated many of both and now they will need them if the big box movers refuse to display any RP at all. If the product is good, and at all sellable, however, there will be dealers willing to display it. Lots of ifs and speculation...

Why is everyone so convinced Mits can't sell these TV's at premium prices. I think there are a few things to take into consideration. The percentage of individuals that visit and post on forums such as this is very small compared to the general public.

The general public will consider a Laservue as new technology, expensive, and unique. If they market this set right I really think they will be able to sell this set. Let's face it marketing is what will sell. Marketing is the reason many manufacturers and products are able to get a premium price compared to other options. The well informed individuals that post here may not see the value, compared to other options. The general public will see a very unique premium product.

Just a thought

Barry

How about the economy for one? Hundreds of thousands of people in good paying jobs are losing their jobs, are afraid of losing their jobs, or just in the mentality to cut back. Look at the auto industry. 7K for a rp in this climate-NUTS! To believe this industry is immune to what ails the rest of the economy is called "living in a deam world".

Samsung just had their preview of all of their new TV's - no rear projection.

No comments yet to say it is dead but it looks that way.

Let's see what Mit's has to say.

Panny just showed off the Neo and 1" new Plasmas - awaiting more info.

Doesn't look good for Laservu

For anyone in the area, Ultimate Electronics in Wichita, KS, has the Mitsubishi Laservue on their showroom floor.

It was nice, but I wasn't blown away. I believe the shimmering/speckle/sheen people are seeing is the projection screen they are using (although it could still be laser speckle). I have seen this on other rear projection Mitsubishi's, which is unfortunate because it really bothers me. The good news is I didn't see any rainbows or suffer any headaches/discomfort watching this set (yay for high speed color cycling!) Bright, very sharp, colors were pleasing after a bit of tweaking, and I can't comment on black levels as ambient light conditions were too bright. $6,000+ is beyond absurd for this thing.

How about the economy for one? Hundreds of thousands of people in good paying jobs are losing their jobs, are afraid of losing their jobs, or just in the mentality to cut back. Look at the auto industry. 7K for a rp in this climate-NUTS! To believe this industry is immune to what ails the rest of the economy is called "living in a deam world".
But take rear projection out of your comments and the same thing should apply, yet Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, and others are selling TV's in that ballpark price range (and higher in some cases). Laservue may very well be too expensive relative to the other available options, but there are most definitely people out there who are going to spend this kind of money on a TV despite what the economy is doing.

Samsung just had their preview of all of their new TV's - no rear projection.

No comments yet to say it is dead but it looks that way.

Let's see what Mit's has to say.

Panny just showed off the Neo and 1" new Plasmas - awaiting more info.

Doesn't look good for Laservu
As others have suggested, Samsung being out of the RP picture potentially shifts more market share over to Mitsubishi as they'll have no competition in the rear projection business. BUT, they're going to have to find ways to keep some number of people interested in the product - either by making it cheaper than same size flat panels, by offering something that stands out in a good way (superior black levels, better contrast ratio, better color, etc.), or both.

I think it will certainly be interesting to see what happens, but I think it's definitely a bit premature to declare Laservue dead at this point - their next few moves will dictate what happens.

Samsung just had their preview of all of their new TV's - no rear projection.

No comments yet to say it is dead but it looks that way.

Let's see what Mit's has to say.

Panny just showed off the Neo and 1" new Plasmas - awaiting more info.

Doesn't look good for Laservu


Flippin' shame, if true.

The 67" Sammy LED DLP is the best deal on the planet, period. Too bad Sammy and Mits don't market the "bang for the buck" aspect more aggressively. A lot of people would love to get twice the real estate for one third the price if they were better informed. Also better for sports (all DLPs), less energy, no fade or burn in.

What the big deal is with "flat" is beyond me. And those tiny screens for the price. Jeez!

I have been exploring the Service Menu and trying to carryy out certain analytical procedures. I have also been working hard to decipher as many of the arcane parameters listed in the Service Menu Area. I was particularly excited today, when I discovered that there is a set of explicit color temperature parameters listed right there in the Menu up close and personal. In the Low Temperature Mode, these are called:

GRWL
GGWL
GBWL

These have values 111, 117 and 128, respectively, for Red, Green and Blue. They represent the X,Y,Z Tristimulus Coordinates at D65 in arbitrary units.Let me try to sketch how I discovered the meaning of these parameters. First, the name GRWL suggest the meaning Gain/Red/Low Temperature etc. and the parameter values needed for D65, I was able to actuallly calculate from Color Theory considerations. This is somewhat abstract but clear and foolproof. In Color Theory, there is a Matrix T which expresses the {X,Y,Z} Tristimulus values in terms of the RGB values. The matrix T has already been set up to apply specifically to a D65 White point, other color temperatures would have different T Matrices etc. In any case, the matrix T is given by

T = {{.412453,.357580,.180423},{.212671,.715160,.072169},{.01933 4,.119193,.950227}\
}

where T is a certain 3 by 3 matrix

This matrix transforms the RGB color space into the XYZ space thus:

{X,Y,Z} = T.{R,G,B}

In particular, for the RGB White Vector we have R=G=B=1

{X,Y,Z}= T.{1,1,1}

If you carry out the implied Matrix multiplication, the result is just:

{X,Y,Z}= {0.950456,1.0,1.08875}

Recall now that these results are in arbitrary units and need to be scaled for comparison to the listing in the Service menu. First lets normalize to the Z Value by division by 1.08875, to get

{X,Y,Z} ={.8730,.9185,1.0}, Next we multiply by 128 to get on the scale of the listing

{X,Y,Z}= {111.7,117.6,128}

This is very nearly the set of values listed in the Menu. As an aside, if you convert these Tristimulus values to Chromaticities, you get the chromaticities of the D65 White point:

xw = .3127; yw = .329

These values are precisely the famous D65 White point Chromaticity values.
This means that if you see these same values, {111,117,128} for {GRWL,GGWL,GBWL}, that your TV in Low Temperature Mode is set precisely for D65 Color Temperature. This brings up a cautionary tale, there are a lot of folks with consumer grade colorimeters, doing chromaticity measurements that are not that precise. You need Professional Grade sensors to pass judgement of these factory set values. You have to figure that at the factory they have access to very expensive NIST traceable Spectrophotometers. I would say, therefore, that if you dont get x=.3127 shen you measure the D65 Chromaticity, that you need to check on your meter calibration. And if you employ a Pro Calibrator, you need to make sure he/she has very precise spectroradiometers.
There id no guess work in this at all, it's purely analytical. Here is a procedure than can carried out quickly by those with Mathematica or Mathcad oe Excel, even.
1. Decide on a Color Temperature, 6500, say, or some other
2. Note that the White point Chromaticity is given by a Cubic equation in the Reciprocal absolute Temperature,
x= A0 +A1/T +A2/TT +A3/TTT, where

A0=0.244063; A1= 0.09911*10^3; A2= 2.9678*10^6; A3= -4.6070*10^9

3. Once the x Chromaticity is calculated, the White point y Chromaticity is just:
y= -3.000x^2 +2.870x -0.275; z=1-x-y

4.Now note that the Tristimulus values X,Y,Z are simply related to x,y,z, through:
X= (x/y)*Y; Y= Y; Z= (z/y)Y

5. This gives you the normed Tristimulus values that just need to be scaled such that Z= 128

6. These values are what's entered into GRWL, GGWL, GBWL

I have done quite a bit of this sort of analysis as applied to this TV, using Mathematica. If you go to:

http://www.wolfram.com

You can download the free Mathematica Player program which will allow you to view/read Mathematica notebook files intact. If you get the player, I can share some of my .nb files for your perusal.

Excellent information, John, but once again, you are assuming that Mitsubishi intends that the white point be D65. In the past they have specifically NOT done this. They have not been willing to even say that they have changed that. There are lots of calibration pros out there with meters that are better than some of the manufacturers use. Hopefully someone will evaluate one of these sets. Didn't you say early on that you had access to spectroradiometric sensors?

No doubt your contribution will be helpful when these start to get evaluated and calibrated seriously.

Samsung just had their preview of all of their new TV's - no rear projection.

No comments yet to say it is dead but it looks that way.

Let's see what Mit's has to say.

Panny just showed off the Neo and 1" new Plasmas - awaiting more info.

Doesn't look good for Laservu

I have been saying for some time that Samsung announced to us back in September that production would end on RP at the end of 2008. Mitsubishi has been saying that they intend to remain in the RP market focusing on very large screen sizes. They think they can be competitive in the 65" and over market and increase their sales as others move out of the market. We'll see, but it appears that they lamp based sets are very competitive. Laservue has a ways to go before we can call it a success or failure. Predictions either way are premature, for me. I just don't have the advantage of clairvoyance that some seem to have.

What the big deal is with "flat" is beyond me. And those tiny screens for the price. Jeez!

To some degree I agree. But the point is that there are many different applications, and some people are better off with a FP and some can use a RP. I have both, and can say that in the room that I have the PDP, it is great compared to the big box I had before. I think the new very thin panels will be very nice, and not having a set sitting 4 inches from the wall will be very attractive. That does not mean that everyone should have one. There is room for all kinds of designs. I see no reason that RP can't fill an important niche and maintain the "bang for the buck" position. Mitsubishi needs to stop being stupid in some ways if they want to survive, however, and listening to dealers, installers, calibration pros, and the performance oriented part of the market is one of the most important ways they can do so.

How about the economy for one? Hundreds of thousands of people in good paying jobs are losing their jobs, are afraid of losing their jobs, or just in the mentality to cut back. Look at the auto industry. 7K for a rp in this climate-NUTS! To believe this industry is immune to what ails the rest of the economy is called "living in a deam world".

While I agree the economy could have an effect, but I believe that effect would be across the board to all premium priced products. The point I am making is there is much discussion that THIS model will not sell due to its "perceived" value. I believe that this is not the case.

The public will and does purchase premium products if THEY see the value to them. I believe that Mits can market this TV to create that perception.

Another point, while most seem to agree that the Kuro is the best pq of any current technology up to 60in. This TV seems to have the potential to be the best at 65in and in the future larger sizes.

Thanks,
Barry

I think a lot of folks overestimate the problem of sell-through with the current model. It is, and will be until it is gone, very limited in production. It is just the first taste of this technology. Mitsubishi can ship as many as they make, and most dealers will likely not get more than a couple of sets anyway. As the trainer at the service seminar put it, we are not being trained to work on this set, as most of us will never see one. They were introducing the technology and the next generation of sets will likely be quite a bit different. Those are the ones that they will need to move. 2010 will tell the story on LaserVue.

But take rear projection out of your comments and the same thing should apply, yet Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, and others are selling TV's in that ballpark price range (and higher in some cases). Laservue may very well be too expensive relative to the other available options, but there are most definitely people out there who are going to spend this kind of money on a TV despite what the economy is doing.


As others have suggested, Samsung being out of the RP picture potentially shifts more market share over to Mitsubishi as they'll have no competition in the rear projection business. BUT, they're going to have to find ways to keep some number of people interested in the product - either by making it cheaper than same size flat panels, by offering something that stands out in a good way (superior black levels, better contrast ratio, better color, etc.), or both.

I think it will certainly be interesting to see what happens, but I think it's definitely a bit premature to declare Laservue dead at this point - their next few moves will dictate what happens.


Exactly what are the sales?? Tweeter, out of business. Circut City in trouble. BB stated that their sales are down. Laservue , while I believe it is dead in the water, if it has any chance to succeed must get the price way down. Right now the MITS bulb based rp's are a great buy for someone who wants a big screen.

I think a lot of folks overestimate the problem of sell-through with the current model. It is, and will be until it is gone, very limited in production. It is just the first taste of this technology. Mitsubishi can ship as many as they make, and most dealers will likely not get more than a couple of sets anyway. As the trainer at the service seminar put it, we are not being trained to work on this set, as most of us will never see one. They were introducing the technology and the next generation of sets will likely be quite a bit different. Those are the ones that they will need to move. 2010 will tell the story on LaserVue.

My clairvoyance is clicking in.......if they don't come out with something this year LaserVue is dead, hell RP in general may be too. I saw the same thing in CRT RP's. Fewer and fewer people were buying them, despite their being cheaper, and fewer stores sold them.

People including me, a diehard RP fan, will just move on by then. Flat panels will be so good and cheap by 2010 CES, that LaserVue at any size will not be able to touch them. While 65" may be the ceiling on FP sets for a while, it will not always be so, and remember while we here like these larger sets they only account for a small amount of the sales, probably not enough to base your whole company on, which is what Mitsubishi is doing. :eek:

The reason that no one is buying CRTs is that no one of any quality makes them. There would still be a big demand for them if someone made something of a decent size and quality. The manufacturers stopped making them because they were costly, they were low margin, and the shipping cost was increasing. Like PDPs, investing in new plants to make them more efficiently had too high a capital cost. RP production is pretty well sorted out, and the differences with laservue present some challenges, but not the large capital that PDPs or CRTs require. There is definitely a market for RPTV, though much smaller than in the past. There is still a market for CRTs but we won't see them for different reasons.

Like I said, it may fly or it may not, but I am patient to wait and find out, and will judge the product when I can see it, test it, and calibrate it.

The reason that no one is buying CRTs is that no one of any quality makes them. There would still be a big demand for them if someone made something of a decent size and quality.

While I respect what you say, and appreciate your contribution to this thread, RPTV died because of the logistical problems created by a large and heavy cabinet. It took a long time for fixed pixel displays to be competative on price and quality, yet they killed off CRT RPTV long before that occurred. Very few people today would want a cabinet that was 3-4' deep and weighed 300lbs no matter how good the image was.

Logistics to produce and transport figured in, but what really killed CRT RPTV was when alternatives to a massive box hit the market. There is no way there would be a big demand for one now, especially when fixed pixel displays have closed the gap on quality.

While I respect what you say, and appreciate your contribution to this thread, RPTV died because of the logistical problems created by a large and heavy cabinet. It took a long time for fixed pixel displays to be competative on price and quality, yet they killed off CRT RPTV long before that occurred. Very few people today would want a cabinet that was 3-4' deep and weighed 300lbs no matter how good the image was.

Logistics to produce and transport figured in, but what really killed CRT RPTV was when alternatives to a massive box hit the market. There is no way there would be a big demand for one now, especially when fixed pixel displays have closed the gap on quality.

Very few people want a front projection system relative to flat panels as well, but there is room in the market for that. I just don't see the lack of demand as great as you suggest. There are lots of installations where the size of recent RP systems is simply not an issue. Unless you mount a flat panel on the wall, the effective difference is not that great. There are all sorts of applications that can use lots of different configurations of sets.

While I respect what you say, and appreciate your contribution to this thread, RPTV died because of the logistical problems created by a large and heavy cabinet. It took a long time for fixed pixel displays to be competative on price and quality, yet they killed off CRT RPTV long before that occurred. Very few people today would want a cabinet that was 3-4' deep and weighed 300lbs no matter how good the image was.

Logistics to produce and transport figured in, but what really killed CRT RPTV was when alternatives to a massive box hit the market. There is no way there would be a big demand for one now, especially when fixed pixel displays have closed the gap on quality.

I don't know of any CRT RP that was/is 3 to 4 feet deep, more like 16" to 25", but the Laservue while not as thin as plasma or Lcd at current thickness should not be an issue for individuals that utilize a stand instead of wall mounting. A believe I read that due to the laser source even thinner cabinets may be possible in future sets.

I don't think the future of Laservue will be determined by these factors.

Thanks,
Barry

Yes I do own Calman and HCFR but my sensors are modest,DTP94 and Chroma 5. I have measuredd the CT with each with different results in one case 6100 and anoother 6700. My point in the previous post is that for the first time we have thpossibility for a "reverse" cal. That is to say, I think the TV is capable of profiling your meter. If you have followed my analysis, you will note that I am making no assumptions here. These are cold hard facts. I have other tidbits that I will share soon. Here is one, on the first page of the SM, there is an entry entitled "Memorize Sensor Input", suggesting that the TV is able to take readings from some sensor with Serial output port. regarding the quality of their test equipment, they are an optics company, manufacture semiconductor lasers etc. and in fact, that spectro that the HDGuru used to measure the laser wavelengths was an Ando or Anritsu as I recall, very very expensive. This was lent to him by Mits.
I have a proposition for you and will send PM.

. There are lots of installations where the size of recent RP systems is simply not an issue. Unless you mount a flat panel on the wall, the effective difference is not that great. There are all sorts of applications that can use lots of different configurations of sets.

Agreed, but my point is that CRT RPTV is a different animal in terms of size and weight than current RP sets. A 73" Mits DLP weighs 90 lbs and is what, 18" deep? If I remember correctly a similar size CRT RP would weigh four times that and have a much larger footprint. Apples and oranges. There is a market for RP, not for CRT RP.

I don't know of any CRT RP that was/is 3 to 4 feet deep, more like 16" to 25", but the Laservue while not as thin as plasma or Lcd at current thickness should not be an issue for individuals that utilize a stand instead of wall mounting. A believe I read that due to the laser source even thinner cabinets may be possible in future sets.

I don't think the future of Laservue will be determined by these factors.

Thanks,
Barry

I did a quick search. The Pioneer Elite 710, a 64" set, weighed in at 360lbs and was 28" deep.

I did a quick search. The Pioneer Elite 710, a 64" set, weighed in at 360lbs and was 28" deep.

My original estimate of 16 to 25 inches (which I think at least 95% fall within) is a lot closer to 28" than 3 to 4 feet!

Barry

... if they don't come out with something this year LaserVue is dead, hell RP in general may be too.... People including me, a diehard RP fan, will just move on by then. Flat panels will be so good and cheap by 2010 CES, that LaserVue at any size will not be able to touch them....

Perhaps. But the relative success of different technologies depends on what people care about.

Depth: For small rooms, flat-panel displays make a lot of sense. For larger rooms, I think that size matters less. For a dedicated HT of any reasonable size, I don't see any advantage to flat-panel displays: my speakers want to be placed two feet from the walls, and people very often put their equipment below the screen, so you've got a lot of space for a RP TV anyway.

Durability: I just bought my first plasma (a Samsung A650). It looks really great. Reading the owners manual is rather distressing - LOTS of dire warnings about burn-in and image retention. Same thing exists for LCD panel displays. Other technologies (CRT, DLP) simply don't have these problems. I'll enjoy the plasma, but I don't like the lingering fear of "using it wrong".

Screen size: I think RP's will have a longer-term advantage here. RP screen sizes aren't limited by technology (in any real sense), they're limited by what the market will buy, both in terms of size and weight. Increasing RP screen size only incrementally increases weight and power consumption. My 50" plasma weighs 98 pounds and dissipates 300 watts (and a LOT of heat) - not eco-friendly. I suspect FP's scale rather poorly.

Price: Today, RP's have a price advantage. This has been eroded recently by the glut of FP inventory in stores, but I don't necessarily know that its sustainable. The cost of the DLP RP's is really low, and they are priced more or less at what price the market can bear.

At the end of the day, I'm a front-projection biggot for HT. I've got a 125" screen (about 3/4" thick, if thickness matters to you), its very low cost (relative to alternatives), and its a very low power consumption system. And it looks amazing. Neither RP or FP can touch it from any of those perspectives.

If Laserview looks as good as some people claim, I suspect it will do well. As with any new technology, the initial production can be troublesome, and the prices are set artificially high. When its in full production, those problems usually get fixed.

Just my 2 cents...
-Reid

Yes I do own Calman and HCFR but my sensors are modest,DTP94 and Chroma 5. I have measuredd the CT with each with different results in one case 6100 and anoother 6700. My point in the previous post is that for the first time we have thpossibility for a "reverse" cal. That is to say, I think the TV is capable of profiling your meter. If you have followed my analysis, you will note that I am making no assumptions here. These are cold hard facts. I have other tidbits that I will share soon. Here is one, on the first page of the SM, there is an entry entitled "Memorize Sensor Input", suggesting that the TV is able to take readings from some sensor with Serial output port. regarding the quality of their test equipment, they are an optics company, manufacture semiconductor lasers etc. and in fact, that spectro that the HDGuru used to measure the laser wavelengths was an Ando or Anritsu as I recall, very very expensive. This was lent to him by Mits.
I have a proposition for you and will send PM.


It was a Minolta CS2000 they had on hand.

Why would someone who has stated they work in this Industry not have access to something more than those modest sensors such as a SpectroRadioMeter?

Agreed, but my point is that CRT RPTV is a different animal in terms of size and weight than current RP sets. A 73" Mits DLP weighs 90 lbs and is what, 18" deep? If I remember correctly a similar size CRT RP would weigh four times that and have a much larger footprint. Apples and oranges. There is a market for RP, not for CRT RP.

I was talking about direct view CRT. My point is that there are markets for all kinds of products, but some require great capital investments, like CRT and PDP plants. The biggest cost in the Laservue is likely the asperical mirror and the screen, not items that require major investments in plants.

Yes I do own Calman and HCFR but my sensors are modest,DTP94 and Chroma 5. I have measuredd the CT with each with different results in one case 6100 and anoother 6700. My point in the previous post is that for the first time we have thpossibility for a "reverse" cal. That is to say, I think the TV is capable of profiling your meter. If you have followed my analysis, you will note that I am making no assumptions here. These are cold hard facts. I have other tidbits that I will share soon. Here is one, on the first page of the SM, there is an entry entitled "Memorize Sensor Input", suggesting that the TV is able to take readings from some sensor with Serial output port. regarding the quality of their test equipment, they are an optics company, manufacture semiconductor lasers etc. and in fact, that spectro that the HDGuru used to measure the laser wavelengths was an Ando or Anritsu as I recall, very very expensive. This was lent to him by Mits.
I have a proposition for you and will send PM.

As I have said before, the wavelength is not as important as the spectrum, and the gamut is not as important as how accurately it displays colors of all flavors. Color Temperature is a rather useless measure. The actual coordinates of white are what is important. You can have the same color temp on two very different colors of white, one looking much more green than the other.

ReidT.....Those are all good points.........for us here in the AVS Forum. Unfortunately, the buying public doesn't rationalize their TV purchase that way. LaserVue is a new tech piggybacked to an old tech of RPTV. While the public might be excited by LaserVue, it's the RP they don't want.

Example, here in NYC since retail space is so limited, it is hard to even see an RPTV. As far as the public knows they don't exist. The only way you will be able to slight turn this around for LV is for people to see it and think it is worth it to get that "large box". As retailers cut back on displaying RP sets this is not going to happen. Hell, look at CES, everything is about thin, not the technology, it's all about how thin you can get your set. I think that's over the top, but thin is in. Retailers like flat panels too because it takes less space to display a TV.......even if it a 65" Panasonic Plasma. I think RP can survive, for a while longer....at least till 2010, because it's an effective way to get a large display on the cheap, but unless they get that price down and get it out soon, Laservue will not beat out the bulb.

Durability: I just bought my first plasma (a Samsung A650). It looks really great. Reading the owners manual is rather distressing - LOTS of dire warnings about burn-in and image retention. Same thing exists for LCD panel displays. Other technologies (CRT, DLP) simply don't have these problems. I'll enjoy the plasma, but I don't like the lingering fear of "using it wrong".
Burn-in is most definitely an issue with CRT's. Lots of CRT monitors around the office had the company logo burned in from the static "screen saver" prior to being (mostly) replaced with LCD flat panels. My CRT RPTV that I recently replaced with a Mits DLP had uneven wear on the black bars for 4:3 content from watching too much 4:3 content early in it's life (I watched the shows I liked rather than making sure I watched the correct percentage of widescreen material and probably had the contrast and brightness too high for a while when I first got it). I don't believe LCD's suffer burn in - they can get image retention, but it's not a permanent situation.

At the end of the day, I'm a front-projection biggot for HT. I've got a 125" screen (about 3/4" thick, if thickness matters to you), its very low cost (relative to alternatives), and its a very low power consumption system. And it looks amazing. Neither RP or FP can touch it from any of those perspectives.
The downsides for front projection are more complicated setup and more of a need to control ambient light. My system is located in a room with windows that allow a non trivial amount of light in during the day and has vaulted ceilings. It would be extremely difficult to mount a projector and inconvenient, at best, to block the sun sufficiently every time I wanted to watch something during the day. I'd be all over front projection if I had a room it would work well in.

ReidT.....Those are all good points.........for us here in the AVS Forum. Unfortunately, the buying public doesn't rationalize their TV purchase that way. LaserVue is a new tech piggybacked to an old tech of RPTV. While the public might be excited by LaserVue, it's the RP they don't want.

Example, here in NYC since retail space is so limited, it is hard to even see an RPTV. As far as the public knows they don't exist. The only way you will be able to slight turn this around for LV is for people to see it and think it is worth it to get that "large box". As retailers cut back on displaying RP sets this is not going to happen. Hell, look at CES, everything is about thin, not the technology, it's all about how thin you can get your set. I think that's over the top, but thin is in. Retailers like flat panels too because it takes less space to display a TV.......even if it a 65" Panasonic Plasma. I think RP can survive, for a while longer....at least till 2010, because it's an effective way to get a large display on the cheap, but unless they get that price down and get it out soon, Laservue will not beat out the bulb.

All good points. I wasn't talking so much about LV-RP, but RP in general. I guess I don't buy into the importance of "thin". I think the problem with RP is that they are really only competitive on larger screens, and the majority of consumers don't need really big screens. If you can't win in the sweet spot of the market, you're ultimately going to lose.

-Reid

Burn-in is most definitely an issue with CRT's.

Thats true, but to a dramatically lesser extent than plasmas, particularly for use as a TV monitor. And I think the manufacturers know this. Page 1 of my plasma's owners manual has 3 separate warnings about BI and IR, which are repeated several times throughout the manual. 2 years ago I bought a Phillips HD direct-view TV - probably the last of its kind - and the owner's manual had no such warnings. In typical, everyday use, this wasn't ever an issue for CRT TV's. Computer monitors are another story altogether though.

-Reid

All good points. I wasn't talking so much about LV-RP, but RP in general. I guess I don't buy into the importance of "thin". I think the problem with RP is that they are really only competitive on larger screens, and the majority of consumers don't need really big screens. If you can't win in the sweet spot of the market, you're ultimately going to lose.

-Reid


65” plus TV’s are not a mass market item, they are not likely to move in large numbers flat or not, just like projectors, but that does not make them unviable.

Thats true, but to a dramatically lesser extent than plasmas, particularly for use as a TV monitor. And I think the manufacturers know this. Page 1 of my plasma's owners manual has 3 separate warnings about BI and IR, which are repeated several times throughout the manual. 2 years ago I bought a Phillips HD direct-view TV - probably the last of its kind - and the owner's manual had no such warnings. In typical, everyday use, this wasn't ever an issue for CRT TV's. Computer monitors are another story altogether though.

-Reid

CRT RPTV’s are more susceptible to burn then Plasmas and people managed to live with them for many years. You have to be careless to burn in a Plasma these days, the secret is modest contrast settings.

It looks as if Mitsubishi is showing the LaserVue at CES 2009

Article - http://www.absolutegadget.com/200901082080/news/television/mitsubishi-low-power-laservue-tv-television.html

Last two photos in this photo gallery appear to be that of a LaserVue poised next to another display with the readout indicating something ...perhaps power consumption or brightness? The angle makes the LV look worse than the closer display.
http://www.i4u.com/article22590.html

...and another article (with a video that appears to date back to CES 2008)
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10456397/1/3-d-ready-tvs-a-smash-at-ces-2009.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN

My apologies if these articles have already been posted. Feel free to delete.

Spence

As I have said before, the wavelength is not as important as the spectrum, and the gamut is not as important as how accurately it displays colors of all flavors. Color Temperature is a rather useless measure. The actual coordinates of white are what is important. You can have the same color temp on two very different colors of white, one looking much more green than the other.

I think we are missing each other in the dark. let me clarify my claim. The accurate measure of color temperature, requires merely that you accurately measure the x chromaticity of the 100% White. If you measure this with two different sensors under identical conditions and get substantially different chromaticities, hence CT, this certainly implies that one or both of your sensors have systematic errors in their ability to meaure chromaticity correctly. Now a fundamental requirement of any proper calibration is that one is able to measure chromaticies correctly.
I have also pointed out rigorously that the TV Service Menu has explicit settings for X, Y and Z Trimulus values for the White point. That you can take those values directly{111,117,128} and calculate, the x chromaticity, for example, directly as follows;

x = 111/(111+117+128) = .3118

If you use this value in the polynomial for T, you can easily calculate the set Color Temp to be 6563 deg K. If yiu want to lower that, you merely have to increase X,Y a notch, for example{112,118,128} would put 6500 spot on. In connection with this, it is interesting to note that the HDGuru measured, 6570 deg K directly. Someone here said he used a Minolta CS 2000 for his measurements and got an exact agreement with my calculated prediction. Meanwhile, my DTP94 and Chroma 5, do not measure identically.
An important point here, is that it means that none of the chromaticity measurements would be accurate over a calibration. Something that would call for a recalibration of the sensors; something that would need to be urgently resolved.
Now I have shared some very importan information with you all and do hope that it will be received graciously.

Thanks John!

I am learning an incredible amount from both you and lcaillo

Spence

If you measure this with two different sensors under identical conditions and get substantially different chromaticities, hence CT, this certainly implies that one or both of your sensors have systematic errors in their ability to meaure chromaticity correctly. Now a fundamental requirement of any proper calibration is that one is able to measure chromaticies correctly.

Someone here said he used a Minolta CS 2000 for his measurements and got an exact agreement with my calculated prediction. Meanwhile, my DTP94 and Chroma 5, do not measure identically.

An important point here, is that it means that none of the chromaticity measurements would be accurate over a calibration. Something that would call for a recalibration of the sensors; something that would need to be urgently resolved.

Now I have shared some very importan information with you all and do hope that it will be received graciously.

Yes, the take away is that cheap sub $1k meters (heck, cheap sub $7k meters) are inaccurate, as one would think someone who claims to work in this Industry for years would know - which brings up the question why would a professional even begin to try and make decisions with one?

Yes, the take away is that cheap sub $1k meters (heck, cheap sub $7k meters) are inaccurate, as one would think someone who claims to work in this Industry for years would know - which brings up the question why would a professional even begin to try and make decisions with one?

I am sure you know that one could easily spend four or five times the costs of this TV on sensors and Pro Software, Generators etc. As a hobbiest it makes no sense for me make that type of investment in test tools. But you are wrong about the take away. The take away is that for the first time to my knowledge, we have a TV that's a sensitive probe for the efficacy/accuracy of your sensor. Normally, you'd take these measurements and begin to adjust the colors/hues to bring the White point in. You would have no knowledge of the accuraciy of these numbers. Here we have a TV, with the help of my analysis, that essentially tells you what the correct answer should be. This is an enormous contribution on the part of Mits with this TV.
As to the meters, these two are not that bad. The results just suggest that they both need to be recalibrated.
I am not a Professional Calibrator, at all. Rather, I am a retired Scientist sho happens to know a lot about Optics and Color Theory. Don't you think I have spent enough money?

Thanks John!

I am learning an incredible amount from both you and lcaillo

Spence

Thank you Spence. I have put a great deal of work into developing a Theory of Operation of this TV. All this, in addition to watching dozens of BD disks. In the old days, mfgrs would make more of this sort of information available to owners but these days, I think they are terrified of us. And that's understandable, given the almost infinite cynicism that abounds in today's consumer.

I think a lot of folks overestimate the problem of sell-through with the current model. It is, and will be until it is gone, very limited in production. It is just the first taste of this technology. Mitsubishi can ship as many as they make, and most dealers will likely not get more than a couple of sets anyway. As the trainer at the service seminar put it, we are not being trained to work on this set, as most of us will never see one. They were introducing the technology and the next generation of sets will likely be quite a bit different. Those are the ones that they will need to move. 2010 will tell the story on LaserVue.

Thanks for real information on Laservue. I am still interested in this technology, but not until they get it right.

Thank you Spence. I have put a great deal of work into developing a Theory of Operation of this TV. All this, in addition to watching dozens of BD disks.

It's a dirty, thankless job, but somebody has to do it... :D

It's a dirty, thankless job, but somebody has to do it... :D
He is currently doing more than anyone else on this thread (at least that we know of) and that is certainly something, no matter what level of equipment is utilizing to do so and that is certainly something.

I have a feeling that lcaillo knows more than he is letting on, and that perhaps he is under some NDA.

I know way more about the aspects of gamut and white level than I did six months ago. ...which isn't saying much at all because I only understand every few words that they have posted. Things that I haven't understood, they have explained in language dumbed down enough for an enthusiast such as I and I greatly appreciate that.

Keep up the research and non-confrontational, productive and relevant posts gentlemen!

Spence

He is currently doing more than anyone else on this thread (at least that we know of) and that is certainly something, no matter what level of equipment is utilizing to do so and that is certainly something.

I have a feeling that lcaillo knows more than he is letting on, and that perhaps he is under some NDA.

I know way more about the aspects of gamut and white level than I did six months ago. ...which isn't saying much at all because I only understand every few words that they have posted. Things that I haven't understood, they have explained in language dumbed down enough for an enthusiast such as I and I greatly appreciate that.

Keep up the research and non-confrontational, productive and relevant posts gentlemen!

Spence

Spence,

If you go to the Wolfram Mathematica Demonstration Program Site, you can download a Mathematica Player free of charge. This will allow you to view and read any Mathematica Notebook, including any that I might attach in the future. Of more importance, perhaps, is that they have a free CIE Diagram demo which plots Gamuts of the various Standards in living color. All of this is free and would help to make all this stuff even more intuitively clear. Go here:

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/?buildid=1009770

and search, if necessary for:

CIE Chromaticity Diagram

Cheers!

If you took my post as confrontational, well.....that's too bad.

It wan't meant as anything more than mild humor, based on JS's comment that he had watched lots of Blurays in doing his research.

And I agree with you on the value of all the educational posts on this forum. :)

If you look at the shape of the Planckian Color Temperature Curve, you can see at a glance that curve falls off rapidly at high temperatures. That is to say, the CT is a rapidily varying function of the x Chromaticity in this region. AS such, it is a very sensitive probe of meter accuracy. This high sensitivity is probably why Calibrators have a difficult time measuring it accurately. In the neighborhood of 6500 deg. K, if your meter has a systematic error of 1%, say, towards positive x, this will lead to a substantial error in the calculated CT. We could use differential Calculus to explore this variation, but that would just obscure the simple facts. Suppose we have a D65 source with known x Chromaticity of 0.3127, if we measure it with our inaccurate meter, it would read 1.01*0.3127 = 0.3158
Now if we calculate the CT with this x value, we get T=6320 deg K, that's 183 degrees below the real value of 6503 deg K. These errors increase quite rapidly as the meter becomes less accurate. Also note that in "torch Mode", at much higher CT, even more stringent requirements are placed on meter accuracy.
Note that here we are talking about accuracy, not repeatability. At these high ambient light levels, the meter will be quite repeatable in their results but those results might be systematically at variance. in my case here, it only requires about 3% error to account for the dramatic error in CT.
What makes all this so useful in this case is that the TV has unequivocally allowed me to assess my meters with precision.
the measured Gamuts, BTW, are much less sensitive to this, and are quite usable, even with 3% systematic error. I have measured the Gamuts for Brilliant and Natural Mode at Low Temperature, and the results look very similar to those obtaine by HDGuru.

If you took my post as confrontational, well.....that's too bad.

It wan't meant as anything more than mild humor, based on JS's comment that he had watched lots of Blurays in doing his research.

And I agree with you on the value of all the educational posts on this forum. :)

Not you at all moonhawk. There have been those who are confrontational at nearly each and every opportunity when responding to posts to John Stephen. I apologize for the tone of that message, utterly and completely, and thank you for not coming back with a more severe 'knee jerk" response (I know I probably would have).

My quoting you was only additional gushing over the appreciation I have regarding John & lcaillo's input, and a positive reinforcement of their constructive and non-confrontational posts (as opposed to those who appear to be 'stalking' John's every post in this thread). In re-reading my earlier post, I can certainly see how it looks as though I was gun'in for ya, but it was far... so very far from it. In hind-site, it would have been the perfect spot to open my post with an "LOL" (I am of the generation, that doesn't do all that much text speak for fear of appearing like a middle aged man, trying to look cool). ;)

...not you at all moonhawk, I completely got your humor and smiled at the reading of it.


Regards,
Spence

P.S. LOL ...ya see? ...just doesn't feel right coming from a 46 year old 'cheese head'. :D

Not you at all moonhawk. There have been those who are confrontational at nearly each and every opportunity when responding to posts to John Stephen.

My quoting you was only additional gushing over the appreciation I have regarding John & lcaillo's input, and a positive reenforcement of their constructive and non-confrontational posts (as opposed to those who appear to be 'stalking' John's every post in this thread).

...not you at all dude.

Regards,
Spence

:cool:

{multiple edits for additional attempts at middle-aged 'coolness'.:cool:}

I left RPTV threads, and went over to the dark (Kuro) side in 2007. I just stopped in to see what's up with Laservue.

I've missed Icaillo's great contributions. You guys are lucky to have him.

John Stephens has had me to his beautiful home overlooking Silicon Valley a couple times. That's how he treated a complete stranger who wanted to see, and hear his home theater.

If either, or both of you two decide to start a thread dedicated to the technical aspects of the Laservue set, please PM me so I can subscribe. :)

I left RPTV threads, and went over to the dark (Kuro) side in 2007. I just stopped in to see what's up with Laservue.

I've missed Icaillo's great contributions. You guys are lucky to have him.

John Stephens has had me to his beautiful home overlooking Silicon Valley a couple times. That's how he treated a complete stranger who wanted to see, and hear his home theater.

If either, or both of you two decide to start a thread dedicated to the technical aspects of the Laservue set, please PM me so I can subscribe. :)

Thanks, Les. It's good to have you tune in again. Both Leonard and I have tried to have some informative discussions of this TV. More to come.

I have a couple of Gamut Images I'd like to share. These measurements were taken, using the FreeWare Program HCFR with XRite DTP94 Sensor. I have also used the AVS REC709 BluRay Disk. I also own the Calman/C5 combo but found it easier to drill down to this simple Gamut Measurement with HCFR.
We talked earlier about a small systematic error in my sensor and it's effect on measuring a correct color temperature. This small error is not expected to have noticible effect in the simple Gamut plots.
I have taken two sets of measurements, first using the Brilliant Mode at Low Temperature; This to establish once and for all the nature of the Wide Gamut in a set purchased at a local AV Store. Another Motive was to check the reasonableness of my measurement by comparing my Gamut to that taken by HDGuru. AS you will see, my Gamut measurement is identical to HDGURU'S. Another point to note is that these measurements were taken with the Set exactly as it was delivered, no tweaks at all. If you study the wide Gamut, you will see that it's what would be predicted for a set of discrete lasers with wavelengths {629 nm, 532 nm, 443 nm}

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/johnblue3/BrilliantMode2_LowTemp.jpg

If I've done this paste correctly the above image should be the brilliant mode

The image below, is of the NATURAL MODE AT 6563 deg K as it was delivered OOB:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/johnblue3/NaturalMode2_LowTemp.jpg

Enjoy!

very nice! If I read it correctly, the inner triangle is what would be considered the standard ...what is it 709 gamut level? If so, it looks like the brilliant mode really adds a lot to the green, slighting to the red and look to reduce the blue.

Thanks JS! I really would love to have one of these sets, as my home theater/family room (no space for a dedicated home theater in my ever-so-slightly above middle income household) measures out at about 28' by 30', with the seating area about 13' from the screen.

I am hoping that the next gen (70+ inch) LaserVues come down to at least the price-point at which I had purchased my WS65907 (circa 2000), which was $5K, because the amount of resistance from my (very loving, understanding, and patient) wife would be a battle that I could not win.

Unless of course, it was a pair of Manolo Blahniks that she would ask me to purchase for her... that would be considered a 'practical purchase'. ;)

I wish I were in your area. I don't think the initial release of LaserVues ever made it to Wisconsin, and what with our weather (currently 15 degrees), I would love to bask in it's warm glow for a bit.

Cheers!
Spence

I left RPTV threads, and went over to the dark (Kuro) side in 2007. I just stopped in to see what's up with Laservue.

I've missed Icaillo's great contributions. You guys are lucky to have him.

John Stephens has had me to his beautiful home overlooking Silicon Valley a couple times. That's how he treated a complete stranger who wanted to see, and hear his home theater.

If either, or both of you two decide to start a thread dedicated to the technical aspects of the Laservue set, please PM me so I can subscribe. :)

Seeing you here and the recent updates to Arun's thread remind me of him and the HLN series...

Glad to hear you are no longer waiting. :)

Unless of course, it was a pair of Manolo Blahniks that she would ask me to purchase for her... that would be considered a 'practical purchase'. ;)


Are those shoes?...Or speakers?...... :D

Seeing you here and the recent updates to Arun's thread remind me of him and the HLN series...Our friend Arun is still contributing. :)

Glad to hear you are no longer waiting. :)What gave you that idea? ;)

Sound and Vision has a review of the LV in their latest issue. Pretty disappointing content-wise from my perspective (most S&V reviews are on the "lighter-weight" side). Reviewer had to do the eval at Mits, and wasn't allowed to get into the SM to adjust anything. OOB grayscale tracked well and was a little blue, but too bad. No hard data on color.

A little laser information for you all on the guts of the Mitsui 65 inch box:

Red: 640nm - 7.6W
Green: 532nm - 6.0W (doubled from 1064nm)
Blue: 447nm - 9.7W

I am not certain whether these are peak power numbers or average power. My suspicion is that they are peak and the average power is lower due to pulse-mode operation (hence lower duty-cycle).

They use two blue lasers for the necessary power and they are all fiber coupled to the modulator. It is a relatively simple matter to calculate the whitepoint based on the above data.

So it looks like the natural mode is what shows the color gamut that should be used?

I have a couple of Gamut Images I'd like to share. These measurements were taken, using the FreeWare Program HCFR with XRite DTP94 Sensor. I have also used the AVS REC709 BluRay Disk. I also own the Calman/C5 combo but found it easier to drill down to this simple Gamut Measurement with HCFR.
We talked earlier about a small systematic error in my sensor and it's effect on measuring a correct color temperature. This small error is not expected to have noticible effect in the simple Gamut plots.
I have taken two sets of measurements, first using the Brilliant Mode at Low Temperature; This to establish once and for all the nature of the Wide Gamut in a set purchased at a local AV Store. Another Motive was to check the reasonableness of my measurement by comparing my Gamut to that taken by HDGuru. AS you will see, my Gamut measurement is identical to HDGURU'S. Another point to note is that these measurements were taken with the Set exactly as it was delivered, no tweaks at all. If you study the wide Gamut, you will see that it's what would be predicted for a set of discrete lasers with wavelengths {629 nm, 532 nm, 443 nm}

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/johnblue3/BrilliantMode2_LowTemp.jpg

If I've done this paste correctly the above image should be the brilliant mode

The image below, is of the NATURAL MODE AT 6563 deg K as it was delivered OOB:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/johnblue3/NaturalMode2_LowTemp.jpg

Enjoy!

I have a couple of Gamut Images I'd like to share. These measurements were taken, using the FreeWare Program HCFR with XRite DTP94 Sensor. I have also used the AVS REC709 BluRay Disk. I also own the Calman/C5 combo but found it easier to drill down to this simple Gamut Measurement with HCFR.
We talked earlier about a small systematic error in my sensor and it's effect on measuring a correct color temperature. This small error is not expected to have noticible effect in the simple Gamut plots.
I have taken two sets of measurements, first using the Brilliant Mode at Low Temperature; This to establish once and for all the nature of the Wide Gamut in a set purchased at a local AV Store. Another Motive was to check the reasonableness of my measurement by comparing my Gamut to that taken by HDGuru. AS you will see, my Gamut measurement is identical to HDGURU'S. Another point to note is that these measurements were taken with the Set exactly as it was delivered, no tweaks at all. If you study the wide Gamut, you will see that it's what would be predicted for a set of discrete lasers with wavelengths {629 nm, 532 nm, 443 nm}Are the color points adjustable via the SM? The brilliant mode is quite oversaturated... Some might love it. Good for Joesixpack (the ones that just buy whatever the price is. Not the cheap ones).

Are the color points adjustable via the SM? The brilliant mode is quite oversaturated... Some might love it. Good for Joesixpack (the ones that just buy whatever the price is. Not the cheap ones).

To begin with his $150 meter is pretty far off the x and y coordinates, as noted by the testing done with the $27,000 Minolota CS2000. Regardless, the green cannot be moved to correct position in the current firmware (as determined with a properly calibrated meter of course).

Sound and Vision has a review of the LV in their latest issue. Pretty disappointing content-wise from my perspective (most S&V reviews are on the "lighter-weight" side). Reviewer had to do the eval at Mits, and wasn't allowed to get into the SM to adjust anything. OOB grayscale tracked well and was a little blue, but too bad. No hard data on color.

Mitsubishi changed their mind on sending the test set to reviewers and has everyone coming to their California location to do "reviews" where they can control things (such as not being allowed into the SM after it was discovered the current firmware does not allow you to get green coordinates correct).

Bought the LaserVue Yesterday for $58XX and absolutely love it!! Can't discuss all those tech questions with graphs and math equations but I never did well in math class. I must tell you everyone who has seen this picture had their jaw drop. It just doesn't get any(just my opinion) better. Placed it on new BDI Meriden 8127 Cherry stand. This BDI stand is a quality piece also and would highly recommend for components. It even holds my 9x21 center speaker. I must say this thread was not helpful at all in purchasing this TV and it seems like everyone talks about everything but this TV.

Bought the LaserVue Yesterday for $58XX and absolutely love it!! Can't discuss all those tech questions with graphs and math equations but I never did well in math class. I must tell you everyone who has seen this picture had their jaw drop. It just doesn't get any(just my opinion) better. Placed it on new BDI Meriden 8127 Cherry stand. This BDI stand is a quality piece also and would highly recommend for components. It even holds my 9x21 center speaker. I must say this thread was not helpful at all in purchasing this TV and it seems like everyone talks about everything but this TV.

With so few units in the chain, there aren't all that may with the experience to talk on them in any great depth. The in-store impressions have pretty much had its run, and with the exception of John Stephens, the only member of the thread who has made the purchase that appears to be willing to post his 'real world' impressions of the LaserVue.

Congratulations to you! I am envious, but my time will come with (hopefully) a second generation model. How about posting some photos to make those of us interested drool just a little bit!? :D

Spence

Bought the LaserVue Yesterday for $58XX and absolutely love it!!

Hey! Congrats on your new purchase!


I must say this thread was not helpful at all in purchasing this TV and it seems like everyone talks about everything but this TV.


Hmmm, sorry you feel that way. Since you're only the third person to report having purchased the set, there's been something of a dearth of first hand information about the LaserVue from anyone except John Stephens.

But since you feel strongly enough to basically chastise virtually every participant in this thread about the poor quality of their participation, this is your golden opportunity to personally correct the situation and start an "official owners' thread" for the display. I've included a quote from the first post of an excellent owners' thread for a Samsung display below for you to use as a template. Get to work, Mr. Helpful!:D

Samsung 61" HL61A750 and 67" HL67A750 LED DLP Owners thread/FAQ

This FAQ was last updated on: 10/17/08
Note: I stole the idea and layout for this thread from the excellent Onkyo 705 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935808) maintained by woots.

[For full change log, refer to the bottom of post #1]


› Click below to view the Samsung details on samsung.com
Samsung Specs (http://www.samsung.com/us/support/spec/supportSpecSearch.do?_site_cd=us&group=televisions&group_cd=&type=televisions&type_cd=&subtype=dlptv&subtype_cd=&model_nm=HL61A750A1F&dType=D&vType=R&mType=UM&model_cd=HL61A750A1FXZA&fullspec=F&prd_ia_cd=02010300&acc_ia_fl=&disp_nm=HL61A750&menu=&isEqualsY=&sel_model_cd=HL61A750A1FXZA)

› Click below to download a PDF version of the Manual, or the latest firmware
Samsung downloads (http://www.samsung.com/us/support/download/supportDown.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=dlptv&model_nm=HL61A750A1F&language=&cate_type=all&dType=D&mType=FM&vType=R&prd_ia_cd=02010300&disp_nm=HL61A750)

Note: If you have firmware version lower than 1005.3 you should update your firmware to fix the power cycle issue and Component black out

Go to MENU, SETUP, SW Upgrade, Then press the INFO button to display firmware version.


This FAQ/owners thread is a work in progress!


The previous 2008 Samsung DLP discussion thread located here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971265) covered the 650 bulb based sets, as well as the 750 LED sets, and was started long before the sets came out. Many owners were requesting a separate owners thread to discuss this particular set. A 650 owners thread/FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13985050#post13985050) has been started here, based on much of the same information in the FAQ.

There is lots of information in the old thread, but I will attempt to centralize the knowledge contributed from everyone in the old thread here. Feel free to post or PM additions, and I will add them to this section.


Whether your a potential "Buyer" or an "Owner" be sure to read through ALL sections of this FAQ as some questions people ask are located in various areas. I just wanted to separate out these sections to make locating important information a little easier for people doing research on the TV.



Frequently Asked Questions


- Does this FAQ also apply to the 650 bulb based sets? What about the 67" 750
Some of the items may very well apply to the 650 set. However, some menu items and settings may be different. The two sets use two different light engines, so expect some settings to be different. The information here does apply to the 67".

- What’s the cheapest price I can find this TV?

The price constantly changes up and down since the day this TV came out at a MSRP of $2399. The current MSRP is $2099. Many users have found the TV on sale and in stores for around $250 below MSRP, (may require use of coupons), or from online retailers around $400 below MSRP.

- Why should I get a 750 LED series over the 650 bulb series?

The 750 comes in bigger sizes, 61" and 67".
The 750 has an LED light source that should last the life of the set. No bulbs to replace.
The 750 uses the CinemaPure Color Engine that creates brilliant, realistic images and displays color that’s 40% brighter than traditional HDTVs. (Note that most sources don't take advantage of this extra color space. Some Camcorders do support it.)
Nearly instant startup times, with instant brightness no need for the bulb or ballast to warm up.
No spinning color wheel, so quieter TV (color wheels spin fast and can sometimes have a high pitch whine), and less moving parts
Much, much less chance of seeing rainbows as the LED's cycle much faster than the color wheel.
"Green" TV. The LED set uses much less power than bulb based sets and has one of the lowest energy consumption of TV's. Note that actual energy usage is less than the max rated watts listed on the TV.


- Why should I get the 650 series over the 750?

Cheaper.
Want a smaller size, 56" or below.


- Why should I get the 750 series over a competitor, like the Mitsubishi

The 750 has an LED light source that should last the life of the set. No bulbs to replace.
Nearly instant startup times, with instant brightness no need for the bulb or ballast to warm up.
No spinning color wheel, so quieter TV (color wheels spin fast and can sometimes have a high pitch whine), and less moving parts
Much, much less chance of seeing rainbows as the LED's cycle much faster than the color wheel.
"Green" TV. The LED set uses much less power than bulb based sets and has one of the lowest energy consumption of TV's. Note that actual energy usage is less than the max rated watts listed on the TV.
The Samsung has 120Hz video processing for smooth, judder free playback of 24 fps film based material, such as Blu-Ray movies
Extensive user menu settings for picture adjustments
The Phlatlight LED engine is made in the USA.


- Does this set use the new TI DarkChip4?
No. From looking at the service manual, it appears that the chip is the same as last years set, which would be DarkChip3.
See this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13922332#post13922332


- Can you give me some more information on the Phlatlight LED's used?
From here: http://www.electronichouse.com/article/phlatlight_a_new_source_of_illumination



- How do I access the service menu?
Be careful in the service menu, if you don't know what you are doing, you can screw up your set!
With the TV off, press Mute, 1, 8, 2, Power on the remote. Caution, this will cause all of your user picture menu items to reset to their defaults. So, you will have to redo your contrast, brightness, etc. settings whenever you go to the service menu. Write them down before hand!! To back out of a service menu item, hit the menu button

- What are all of these service menu items?
See the list here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13505573#post13505573) thanks to ztkp01.

Need to start working on a description of service menu items, if anyone would like to contribute...

- How can I bring up some test patterns from the service menu? (Might be useful in a store to check geometry)
From the service menu, you can get to the test patterns by going to the DDP3021 menu, and choosing Test Pattern (DDP). You can then right arrow through various test patterns. There is one for adjusting the picture position that may be useful for checking geometry.

You can also use this image, (just copy it to a USB thumb drive and connect it to the TV
http://psleng.dyndns.org/files/tv_test/grid.jpg


- What are the dimensions of the TV, the box, the base of the TV?
61":
Set size(WxHxD) 54.8" x 37.8" x 14.4"
Package size(WxHxD) 60.0" x 42.6" x 20.2"
Just under 40" wide for the bottom base.

Dimensional drawing courtesy of tomytyler:
http://mikepro.googlepages.com/HL61A750_Dimensional_Drawing.gif

67":
Set size(WxHxD) 60.8" x 41.5" x 15.5"
Package size(WxHxD) 65.9" x 46.2" x 20.7"


- Does this TV have 120Hz processing? Is it like the LCD's I see in the store? Why does it say 60Hz when I press the info button?
Yes, this TV is ALWAYS doing 120Hz video processing. It cannot be turned on or off. This is not the same effect that you may see on some LCD's in a store. Those LCD's have a feature called something like Motion Enhancement that is software to enhance the motion of the image. This often has the effect of making film look like video, and can also cause what is known as TBE or triple ball effect, where you might see three balls on a fast moving baseball due to software frame interpolation. Since DLP's have a hugely faster update rate, this is not needed. The 120Hz on this TV is used to provide judder free display of 24fps sources, such as blue ray movies. When you press the info button on the remote, it shows the frame rate of the SOURCE material. For regular TV, this will usually be 60Hz. For Blu rays, it will be 24Hz. But the TV always does 120Hz video processing. 120Hz is also used for the 3d features of the TV, or to provide two full screen independent images at 60Hz to users. These features require special glasses and must be supported by the source material

- Does this TV do 1080p/24fps?
Yes, see above.

- Should I buy an extended warranty? What is the cheapest place?
It is up to you. I find most retail stores warranties are too expensive. One popular alternative on this board is the Mack extended warranty offered with special AVS discount pricing here.

Mack Warranty info with special price from Texas Tapeworks. (http://tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_tv_only_.html)

Since these TV's have no bulb, you should be OK with the TV only warranty. AVS discount pricing was $125 last I checked.

- What is the Service Manual part number? Where can I order one?
The part number is SM-HL61A750A1F. You can order one from samsungparts.com for $28. Online retailers have electronic copies for SERVICE MANUAL 1 $28.00 $28.00

Other places have electronic versions available cheaper. Manualuniverse.com had it for $18.99. To find it you need to search for the complete model number, which is HL61A750A1FXZA

- What is SSE?
Stands for Silk Screen Effect. It is the "sparkly" or "shimmery" look on bright backgrounds, like sky shots. It is caused by the type of high gain screen used. It's effects (if it really bothers you) can be reduced with proper brightness and contrast adjustments

- Will the optical out pass DD5.1?
Only for over the air signals. From the manual:
When the receiver (home theater) is set to On, you can hear sound output from
the TV’s Optical jack. When the TV is displaying a DTV(air) signal, the TV will send
out 5.1 channel sound to the Home theater receiver. When the source is a digital
component such as a DVD and is connected to the TV via HDMI, only 2 channel
sound will be heard from the Home Theater receiver.
If you want to hear 5.1 channel audio, connect the DIGITAL AUDIO OUT
(OPTICAL) jack on the DVD player or Cable/Satellite Box directly to an Amplifier or
Home Theater, not the TV.

- How much power does this actually set use?
According to measurements done by jayquinty (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13950429#post13950429), On: 119 Watts. Crutchfield measured off usage at only .6 Watts. It is one of the greenest TV's you can buy, especially for it's size.

User chuckolson made these measurements with his Kill A Watt P4400 Tester to show how power usage depends on LED control setting:
Auto 170 - 190 W.
Max 170 W.
High 140 W.
Medium 119 W.
Low 99 W.
Min 84 W.

- Does this set support discrete power on/off via IR?
Yes.
- What about IR codes to go directly to their inputs?
Yes.

- Can I directly select picture mode (Movie, Standard, or (ugh) Dynamic), using my Harmony remote?
Yes, but you need to email Logitech to have them add the commands to your account. I've asked them to update the database for our sets, but last I checked they had not.

Simply do the following[/SIZE]:


Go to the logitech website, and click the email support link here (http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/logitech_en_amr.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?)

Fill in your information, and ask them to convert the Pronto hex codes below into remote codes. Include your harmony remote user name in the information.

They should reply to your email and add them to your account. I have asked them to add these to the general database for our TV's, we'll see if they do.


I'm fairly sure these codes would also work for the 650 series of sets.

These codes are in standard Pronto hex format:

Picture mode - Dynamic
0000 006C 0022 0000 00AD 00AD 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0728


Picture mode - Movie
0000 006C 0022 0000 00AD 00AD 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0728


Picture mode - Standard
0000 006C 0022 0000 00AD 00AD 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0728


- Does this tv work properly with the voice sync feature of HDMI 1.3a?
The TV is HMDI 1.3a compliant, but that doesn't mean it supports every feature that 1.3a can have. I haven't seen any reference to it supporting this, but will try and test it with my receiver, (Onkyo 805) which does support it, and will get back to you on this.



Known bugs, issues, warnings, setup advice

- Power cycle issue
Initial firmware release had issues where the set would randomly turn off. Fixed by firmware update 1000.4

- Black Adjust and/or Dynamic gets set to high (even though it says off) when switch to/from movie mode
When you go from Standard to Movie mode, or back to Standard, sometimes (not always on my set, haven't figured out quite the pattern), you may notice that blacks are suddenly very dark and being crushed. This is because Black Adjust in the Detailed picture setting is actually on high, even though it says off. To fix, just move the setting, and move it back to Off. I believe this also happened to me once with Dynamic Contrast.

- Black "flecks" on the inside of the screen
Most likely dust or something on the inside of the screen from shipping. Easily removed by opening up the circular access ports on the sides of the rear of the TV, and reaching in with a soft micorfiber or lens cloth and removing them

- Convergence, tilt, geometry issues
Several have reported various geometry or tilt issues, many have reported none. Tilt may be adjusted by moving the DMD light engine

- Calibration option in service menu
This is a warning, if you do this option you may need to turn the color management system back on using the CCA service menu item.

- 1080p over Component issue.
Some people have issues connecting the Xbox to the set and getting 1080p. In this case, the best connection option for Xbox is VGA cable, (or HMDI if you have that). NOTE that firmware 1000.5 should fix this issue.

- Buzzing in Dynamic mode, on very bright scenes
Some users, (including me), have reported a buzzing noise from the back of the TV if it is in Dynamic mode showing a bright scene. This is hard to hear unless the sound is muted. It may be a power supply, or the LED's , or what. I do not hear this in any of the other viewing modes. only dynamic on bright scenesLooking for more feedback from users to check how widespread this issue is

Link to similar problem with 2007 LED set, caused by LED driver board. Fix seems to be to replace the entire LED light engine.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12588890&highlight=buzzing#post12588890
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12430724#post12430724

If the buzz is constant, not dependant on what is shown, it could be some other power supply.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12974128&highlight=buzz#post12974128


- Verizon FIOS HDTV DVR picture dropouts
Kainan has reported a problem with the Verizon FIOS HDTV DVR and our TV. It loses picture randomly (every few days) and the only current fix is to unplug the power for a few seconds and plug it back in. Before I found this out I was spending tons of time on the phone with Verizon as they would reset the box and I would get the picture back. One person at Verizon said this is completely Samsung's fault while I did manage to talk to one person there who said that Verizon hadn't been able to keep up with the newer technology that is in the new Samsung 750 sets. Of course Samsung has said that this is a fault of Verizon. Neither side has budged yet and I still have to unplug the power every few days. This is ONLY on the HDTV boxes.


- Top bar reflections
Many users have reported that when watching a moview with black bars at the top and botoom, if a very bright obejct is at the top of the image, some light will bleed into the black bar.



TV Recommended Display Settings:

General Notes: Dynamic mode is pretty much regarded as useless, and intended for store demo purposes only. Standard is probably more preferable. Movie mode reportedly has the best D6500 color temp tracking.
You should adjust the contrast, brightness, color, gamma, etc. control for what looks correct for your set suing a calibration disk like the AVCHD disk, or Digital Video Essentials (DVE). So, some of the specific settings below are what worked for me, but may not work for you. However, as a general rule, recommended settings everyone should consider using are:
Edge Enhancement: off
Size: Just Scan
Color Gamut: sRGB

My settings:
Picture mode: Standard
Usage:What I like for normal Cable/HD viewing. Provides extra "pop", and 3D-ish look but clearly over saturated.
Contrast 97
Brightness 48
Sharp 0
Color 49
Tint 46/54

Detailed Settings
Black Adj off
Dyn Contrast Low (Adds the "pop" many people are looking for)
LED Control Auto (Sometimes turn down to medium at night)
Gamma 0
White Bal -4
Flesh Tone -3
Edge Ehancement off
xvYCC off

Picture Options
Color Tone Normal
Size Just Scan
Digital NR Auto
DNIe Off
HDMI Black Lvl Normal * See notes below
Film Mode Auto
Blue Only Mode off
Color Gamut sRGB

Picture mode Movie
Usage: Movies, Blu Ray playback. Generally, the most accurate mode
Contrast 100
Brightness 47
Sharp 0
Color 49
Tint 50/50

Detailed Settings
Black Adj off
Dyn Contrast off
LED Control Medium
Gamma -3
White Bal 0
Flesh Tone 0
Edge Ehancement off
xvYCC off

Picture Options
Color Tone Warm 2
Size Just Scan

Digital NR Auto
DNIe off
HDMI Black Lvl Normal * See notes below
Film Mode Auto
Blue Only Mode off
Color Gamut sRGB


Check out the Google Docs spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=piAw8QwjAbJTG6epQBnQfbw) of other users settings
Add your own to the spreadsheet, but please do not delete or change the format of the sheet, or I will have to lock it down.

HDMI black level may be grayed out and set to Auto for cable viewing. It is also grayed out for Blu Ray playback, (providing your machine is outputting a YPb signal). This setting only affects, and is only changeable with RGB signals, such as at the PS3 XMB dashboard, or a PC.

HDMI black level = normal tells the TV to expect "normal" PC RGB 0-255 levels. HDMI black level = Low tells the TV to expect it's input to have video RGB 16-235 levels, and the TV will expand these by lowering 16 to 0 and raising 235 to 255. When viewing an RGB encoded source, if your picture is too light and blacks are not very black, or if blacks are too dark and you loose a lot of shadow detail, try switching to the other setting.


PS3 Recommended Settings:

From PS3 Settings->Display settings menu: (Note you can also adjust these while watching a movie by using the triangle button and going to the AV Display settings icon)
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White: On (Allows blacker than black and whiter than whites to be passed)
RGB Full Range: Full (** This is to optimize it for PC RGB levels, such as games **)

PS3 Settings->BD/DVD Settings
BD/DVD Video Output Format (HMDI): Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr [Automatic is also OK. Note that on Auto, for Blu Ray's, it will send video as Y Pb, and for games and the XMB dashboard it will be RGB.]

TV Settings:
Detailed Settings:
--- xvYCC: Off (On seems to make no difference to me. Only devices that use this anyways are some camcorders. Turn it on if you have such a device.)
Picture Options:
--- HDMI Black Level: Normal

With the RGB Full Range set to Full, then the HDMI Black Level in the TV's Picture Options menu should be set to Normal. With the RGB Full Range set to Limited, then the HDMI Black Level in the TV's Picture Options menu should be set to Low.
Either way is "OK", as long as you keep them consistent. You should see virtually no difference between RGB Full/HDMI Normal and RGB Limited/HDMI Low. You should not have to adjust your contrast or brightness when switching between settings. The only difference that may be apparent, is some slight color banding in one mode or the other. Note that most people on this site will tell you that RGB limited is the correct setting. This *may* be true for *their* sets, but is really a recommendation to optimize it for video level encoded sources. However, since you can set these up to use YPb output, and our sets can support the full PC RGB range, therefor I feel it is better to recommend setting it up to optimize PC level material, such as games.

Check out this post by sperron which explains it very well.



Thanks to user Nullman who found some test material that demonstrates this color banding issue when set to RGB Limited/HDMI black Level low. You can see for yourself with the WipeOut HD game trailer or the WallE movie trailer as he describes below.



If you do see color banding in your picture, then try the other combination


Xbox 360 Recommended Settings:

* This section still in progress *
If your Xbox does not have HDMI as an option, you can use component or VGA. Many posters seem to prefer the VGA connection, (there were issues early on with 1080p over component, that have since been fixed with a firmware update). From testing by Turls, he suggests setting the VGA reference level to Expanded as the best setting for Xbox.


Some calibration results:

rahull (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13557211&postcount=1379)
StevenZ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13733025&postcount=2324)
StevenZ settings (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13626675#post13626675)

A general comment (allegedly) from Eliab, a well known calibrator here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13868219#post13868219



Other resources:

Here are a collection of resources that may be useful.


Check out the Cnet review (http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/samsung-hl61a750/4505-6484_7-32915921.html?tag=prod.txt.1) of this set. Did very well!




2007 model HL-Txx87/89 Tech Links
Some very good information in here, although not everything applies to our sets.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12663312#post12663312



Change log
5-16-2008. Fixed link t[o specs on Samsung.com. Re-ordered FAQ. Added sections about light engine. Clarified what this FAQ applies to. Added full model number to link for service manual at manualuniverse. Added Darkchip4 question. Edited bug about doing calibrate option in service menu. Clarified 1080p/24fps support. Added xbox 1080p component issue. Added buzzing in Dynamic mode
5-17-2008: Black bar image note. Added tech links and other resources section
5-20-2008: Added section about why buy the 750 vs. Mitsubishi
5-21-2008 Added section on PS3 setup. Also new firmware is out.
5-22-2008 Added Darkchip4 = NO.
5-26-2008 Added power usage, discrete IR commands, and HDMI voice sync, Xbox 360 section
6-3-2008 Updated PS3 settings, recommended settings, phlatlight info
6-9-2008 Added package dimensions for 67", and link to 650 owners FAQ
7-22-2008 Added Cnet review link
8-23-2008 Added updated power usage info and Verizon FIOS HD DVR issue.
9-28-2008 Added info on Harmony remote direct picture mode selection
10-17-2008 Added dimensional drawing

Ever hear the phrase "put up, or shut up?

'SNIP'
...But since you feel strongly enough to basically chastise virtually every participant in this thread about the poor quality of their participation, this is your golden opportunity to personally correct the situation and start an "official owners' thread" for the display. I've included a quote from the first post of an excellent owners' thread for a Samsung display below for you to use as a template. Get to work, Mr. Helpful!:D

Ever hear the phrase "put up, or shut up?

Kelpie,

While I think that the template provided would be a brilliant format with which to start an "Official Owner's Thread" and thank your for suggesting it, could you please ease up a bit on buckscountyguy? I mean come on man, was there anything not factual about stating that the thread was not all that helpful and that it was rarely on topic? I don't think he meant it as a personal slam against anyone in this thread, but rather making an 'accurate observation'.

As much as I would love to see an official owner's thread started, I'm unsure if there are sufficient "Official Owners" with which to populate it. Having said that, the thread would end up not all that different from this current thread. With non-owners popping in with their first hand accounts of seeing one in a store, not purchasing it because such-and-such model looks better yadda-yadda-yadda.

...all I'm trying to say is 'where is the peace love and understanding man'? Please cut him a modicum of slack.

I would rather welcome the new poster with positive encouragement to post his experience with his new purchase and celebrate it through his eyes rather than taunt him with 'put up or shut up' and chance driving someone who actually owns the product away.

Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just stating my observation.

Cheers,

Spence

Kelpie,

While I think that the template provided would be a brilliant format with which to start an "Official Owner's Thread" and thank your for suggesting it, could you please ease up a bit on buckscountyguy? I mean come on man, was there anything not factual about stating that the thread was not all that helpful and that it was rarely on topic? I don't think he meant it as a personal slam against anyone in this thread, but rather making an 'accurate observation'.

As much as I would love to see an official owner's thread started, I'm unsure if there are sufficient "Official Owners" with which to populate it. Having said that, the thread would end up not all that different from this current thread. With non-owners popping in with their first hand accounts of seeing one in a store, not purchasing it because such-and-such model looks better yadda-yadda-yadda.

...all I'm trying to say is 'where is the peace love and understanding man'? Please cut him a modicum of slack.

I would rather welcome the new poster with positive encouragement to post his experience with his new purchase and celebrate it through his eyes rather than taunt him with 'put up or shut up' and chance driving someone who actually owns the product away.

Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just stating my observation.

Cheers,

Spence

Who ME!? Why, Spence! I’m shocked and hurt that you took my post that way. You meanie! You hurt my feelings. How…how…can …I …bear…. this….? (sniff) I…I…I think I’ll leave and never come back…..(sniff)

All kidding aside, of course you’re right, but yeah I found it ironic, and even insulting, that someone who has a grand total of 4 posts and who has personally contributed so little to this thread, yet is in a prime position to contribute so much (after evidently having done enough research to decide to purchase and now has hands-on capabilities), had the gall to complain about the lack of information in this thread- which you’ll note from the thread’s title and first post is a pre-release “anticipation” thread in part dedicated to discussion of the price vs. value of this display compared to others (how’s that for a run-on sentence?). Reading buckscountyguy’s post again, I have to agree with you that he did not mean it as “a personal slam against anyone in this thread”. It reads more like a general slam against “everyone” (his word) in this thread. What other purpose did that last line serve? Do you tell a mother that her baby is ugly- even if it's just a truthful observation?

When I complain about something, I try to come up with a viable solution whenever I can. Personally, I have gleaned a ton of information on the LaserVue from this thread, but I have the advantage of having followed it from day-one and have read every post. I can sure see how after nearly 3600 posts it would take a whole heck of a lot of “gleaning” for a newcomer to get much out of it. I can understand buckscountyguy’s frustration, so when I objected to his complaining, I offered him the best solution to his problem and gave him directions on how to complete his task.

Will a new owners’ thread for the LaserVue degenerate like this one? Of course it will. That’s what these threads do. As you point out, it’s especially likely with a display with so few owners. But a well designed and maintained owners’ thread by a dedicated owner who continues to follow along and update the first post can be an invaluable resource for owners, prospective owners (of this and possible future LaserVue models), and even the merely interested. Is a good owners’ thread a lot of work? Sure it is! Does buckscountyguy want to take up the gauntlet and start such a thread? I could sure understand if he doesn’t. But if he doesn’t want to do it for us then perhaps he might be a little more understanding of why no one has done it for him.

Buckscountyguy, apologies for my confrontational attitude. If I haven’t driven you off yet, I’m quite sure that any “positive” information that you’d care to contribute about you new LaserVue (either favorable or unfavorable), with whatever level of detail you’d care to include will be appreciated by the people following this thread. But if you find good information about the LaserVue lacking on this forum, you can certainly fix that.

Just my 2¢,

kelpie

Ever hear the phrase "put up, or shut up?

ease up....the guy was only stating the truth.
I am pretty sure posts like yours was exactly what he was talking about.

ease up....the guy was only stating the truth.
I am pretty sure posts like yours was exactly what he was talking about.


You're right. And this post, and Spence's, and yours....

This thread has become incredibly cumbersome, hasn't it? There is a fix out there for anyone who doesn't like it...

(Hey, ease up guys. I'm just "stating the truth". ;) )

Bought the LaserVue Yesterday for $58XX and absolutely love it!! Can't discuss all those tech questions with graphs and math equations but I never did well in math class. I must tell you everyone who has seen this picture had their jaw drop. It just doesn't get any(just my opinion) better. Placed it on new BDI Meriden 8127 Cherry stand. This BDI stand is a quality piece also and would highly recommend for components. It even holds my 9x21 center speaker. I must say this thread was not helpful at all in purchasing this TV and it seems like everyone talks about everything but this TV.

If you'd have gone back to the posts that began when the set was released, mine was one of the first, you've have learned alot about the Laservue. While it's true that this thread has gone off on many tangents, most of them are related to current and future alternative options and the value the Laservue presents relative to them. To me, the Laservue at $7000 is absurd. If the Elite 151 did not exist I would think differently. Since you got a deal on the set your value proposition is more realistic. Still, the Elite can be had for less than you paid and I'd love to know why the preferred the Laservue over it.

Do you tell a mother that her baby is ugly- even if it's just a truthful observation?

LOL! Only if it is a close friend or family member that I know cannot kick my a..! :D

a well designed and maintained owners’ thread by a dedicated owner who continues to follow along and update the first post can be an invaluable resource for owners, prospective owners (of this and possible future LaserVue models), and even the merely interested.

Completely agree with you.

Buckscountyguy, apologies for my confrontational attitude. If I haven’t driven you off yet, I’m quite sure that any “positive” information that you’d care to contribute about you new LaserVue (either favorable or unfavorable), with whatever level of detail you’d care to include will be appreciated by the people following this thread. But if you find good information about the LaserVue lacking on this forum, you can certainly fix that.

yet more agreement!

I am hoping that buckscountyguy will join John Stephens in continuing to enlighten us with their first hand experiences as LaserVue owners.

If I were to have one, I know for a fact that I would probably have gone silent for a month or two while I sat around enjoying it's laser-colored-goodness! ;)

Cheers,
Spence

If you'd have gone back to the posts that began when the set was released, mine was one of the first, you've have learned alot about the Laservue. While it's true that this thread has gone off on many tangents, most of them are related to current and future alternative options and the value the Laservue presents relative to them.

Ah-HA! You were the other one (I never claimed that John Stephens was the first, however he appears to the only one (so far) sharing his personal findings and answering questions regarding their 'real world' experience with the LaserVue.

To me, the Laservue at $7000 is absurd. If the Elite 151 did not exist I would think differently.

This confuses me egrady,

You have stated that you were the first to post as owning a LaserVue, then complain about the price (of which I agree... too expensive for me), do you still have it because I see you mentioning the Elite. Did you return the LaserVue and purchase the less expensive Elite?

So now we've got two (probably three) confirmed owners! kelpie is right on about an "Official Owner's Thread".

Regards,
Spence

This confuses me egrady,

You have stated that you were the first to post as owning a LaserVue, then complain about the price (of which I agree... too expensive for me), do you still have it because I see you mentioning the Elite. Did you return the LaserVue and purchase the less expensive Elite?
I don't believe egrady ever said he owned a LaserVue. He has said he's spent a lot of time with it. Taking a quick look at his post history in this thread suggests that he's spent that time observing it at a store, not in his home. And given the nature of his comments, I'd be a bit surprised if he has actually purchased one.

So now we've got two (probably three) confirmed owners! kelpie is right on about an "Official Owner's Thread".



Not to speak for egrady, but like gsr I think he's saying he was among the first to post info about the LaserVue after its actual release, not that he was the first owner.

To my count, there are three in this thread who claim to own the LaserVue: Neshi (posted 11/10/08) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15043163&highlight=#post15043163), John Stephens (posted 11/12/08) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15054380&highlight=#post15054380), and buckscountyguy (posted 1/11/09) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15523347&highlight=#post15523347).

I don't know why people want to kill this set befor it has been out for mass marketing. If the picture quallity is as good or better than Pioneer KURO, does 10" thick or dlp really matter? So far all the people who bought this set love it ,At that PRICE! When it is mass produced and the price comes down,(and it will),I see alot of people interested in these. It's Not Like I have anything against Pioneer. I own Pioneer Elite SC-09 reciever and 05FD blu-ray. Was just looking at Pioneer elite Kuro to day. 60 " $6000.00 and it doen't even come with a table stand, $400.00 more. Just because its thin or plasma. Sorry Until I see it & if the picture quality is that good I don't care if its 10 or 15 inches thick or dpl. Anyway thats my 2 &1?2 cents worth


yeah i don't care about the thickness either, esp when similarly sized FPDs are as heavy if not heavier. but you and i and most ppl on this forum are not typical.

i have more problem with other microdisplay drawbacks, like hotspotting (though that doesn't seem like an issue with the laservue) and sparkles. and the high price tag.

ah yes (Spence says in his best imitation of Maxwell Smart) - once again, I have miss-read a post.

I took it that egrady was saying that he had the first LaserVue, and totally did not get his reference to 'posting' until you pointed it out to me.

I blame this on George Bush, Global Warming, the Economy, and Indoor Allergies. ;)

Sorry ...I'll shut up for a while, as I do not have a LaserVue and wish to live vicariously through the few that do.

My apologies egrady.

Regards,

Spence

yeah i don't care about the thickness either, esp when similarly sized FPDs are as heavy if not heavier. but you and i and most ppl on this forum are not typical.

i have more problem with other microdisplay drawbacks, like hotspotting (though that doesn't seem like an issue with the laservue) and sparkles. and the high price tag.

Thank you I agree. I just don't think that mitsubishi will let this thec. die. Even though I'ts front projection, why do most of the movie theater's use DLP if it's thec. is dead. I also love the know it all sayings of "Joe six pack". Sorry but the circle of friends that I have who are Lawers Doctors, account., and home Developers, Who fall into this catagory. Like I've said before everyone has there own priorities, and likes. Thats why they make ford ,chevy,lexus,and more. I respect everyones opinoins, don't put any ones down like timmy trailar park. (here's a new one for you!)

ah yes (Spence says in his best imitation of Maxwell Smart) - once again, I have miss-read a post.

I took it that egrady was saying that he had the first LaserVue, and totally did not get his reference to 'posting' until you pointed it out to me.

I blame this on George Bush, Global Warming, the Economy, and Indoor Allergies. ;)

Sorry ...I'll shut up for a while, as I do not have a LaserVue and wish to live vicariously through the few that do.

My apologies egrady.

Regards,

Spence

You should live in San Antonio like I do, then you really could talk allergies!

Is Mitsubishi's line show in March?

Will we learn anything new concerning DLP or laser sets then?

Bought the LaserVue Yesterday for $58XX and absolutely love it!! Can't discuss all those tech questions with graphs and math equations but I never did well in math class. I must tell you everyone who has seen this picture had their jaw drop. It just doesn't get any(just my opinion) better. Placed it on new BDI Meriden 8127 Cherry stand. This BDI stand is a quality piece also and would highly recommend for components. It even holds my 9x21 center speaker. I must say this thread was not helpful at all in purchasing this TV and it seems like everyone talks about everything but this TV.

Which picture mode are you running? Natural, Bright or Brilliant?

Are the color points adjustable via the SM? The brilliant mode is quite oversaturated... Some might love it. Good for Joesixpack (the ones that just buy whatever the price is. Not the cheap ones).

Yes, this TV has a full CMS in the Service Area. It's familiar territory, too, since similar symbols are used as in current Daimond Series Mits. it has the additional really neat feature of allowing knowledgeable ones to digitally dial in a correct color temp. This Matrix based feature, alone, makes this TV a Reference Device, capable of assessing your meter accuracy.
All this, of course, should only be done in the natural mode at low temp. The brilliant mode is the Tv's claim to fame, its beauty mark as it were and is not something you'd want to Calibrate away.
The use of Lasers, with their none aging long term stability, that property of remaining steadily bright on with fixed wavelength until they fail suddenly after tens of thousands of hours, opens up a number reference features.
For example, there is always a lot of talk about gray scale tracking, things of that sort. Well, the only way for this TV not to have perfect tracking would be if the mfgr made math errors in the matrix digital processing area. Not likely for a firm like Mitsubishi, since display manufacture has long been one of their core competencies.
In my own probing of the TV, I have been mainly focused on a Theory of Operation rather than Calibration per se. There is no feeling that a Calibration needs urgently to be done. But when and if you do calibrate the Natural Mode at Low Temperature, those settings will last for the life of the TV.

Yes, this TV has a full CMS in the Service Area. It's familiar territory, too, since similar symbols are used as in current Daimond Series Mits. it has the additional really neat feature of allowing knowledgeable ones to digitally dial in a correct color temp. This Matrix based feature, alone, makes this TV a Reference Device, capable of assessing your meter accuracy.
All this, of course, should only be done in the natural mode at low temp. The brilliant mode is the Tv's claim to fame, its beauty mark as it were and is not something you'd want to Calibrate away.
The use of Lasers, with their none aging long term stability, that property of remaining steadily bright on with fixed wavelength until they fail suddenly after tens of thousands of hours, opens up a number reference features.
For example, there is always a lot of talk about gray scale tracking, things of that sort. Well, the only way for this TV not to have perfect tracking would be if the mfgr made math errors in the matrix digital processing area. Not likely for a firm like Mitsubishi, since display manufacture has long been one of their core competencies.
In my own probing of the TV, I have been mainly focused on a Theory of Operation rather than Calibration per se. There is no feeling that a Calibration needs urgently to be done. But when and if you do calibrate the Natural Mode at Low Temperature, those settings will last for the life of the TV.


The set is not a reference device useful for assessing the accuracy of a meter. This is simply nonsense. If the set was calibrated and found to produce a spectrum identical to the EIA standard observer, perfect response, and perfect color reproduction, then it might be useful to compare meters in general. To assume that Mitsubishi has suddenly produced a set with perfect performance, when in the past they have deviated purposely from industry standards, is not reasonable. The whole notion of using a set as a reference to test meters is flawed, particularly when the spectra of the lasers has not been identified.

The idea that settings will last the life of the set is also highly suspect. We have no idea how stable these sets will be. The lasers could be perfectly stable and a few bad caps could completely alter its behavior. But then, Mitsubishi has never built sets with bad capacitors, have they?

You make far too many assumptions, John. I am glad that you are happy with your set, but making these kinds of statements can mislead people and damages your credibility.

The set is not a reference device useful for assessing the accuracy of a meter. This is simply nonsense. If the set was calibrated and found to produce a spectrum identical to the EIA standard observer, perfect response, and perfect color reproduction, then it might be useful to compare meters in general. To assume that Mitsubishi has suddenly produced a set with perfect performance, when in the past they have deviated purposely from industry standards, is not reasonable. The whole notion of using a set as a reference to test meters is flawed, particularly when the spectra of the lasers has not been identified.

The idea that settings will last the life of the set is also highly suspect. We have no idea how stable these sets will be. The lasers could be perfectly stable and a few bad caps could completely alter its behavior. But then, Mitsubishi has never built sets with bad capacitors, have they?

You make far too many assumptions, John. I am glad that you are happy with your set, but making these kinds of statements can mislead people and damages your credibility.

The spectra of the lasers has been measured months ago by HDGuru. The D65 white point is inpendent of the exact wavelength of the lasers. The XYZ Tristimulus values are listed in the SM and the necessary and sufficent to calculate the Color Temperature directly:

{RGBW}= Inverse[T].{XYZW}

There is no ambiguity in this and no assumptions, it's simply a matter Matrix Algebra and Color Theory. To wit, in my TV these numbers are (112, 118, 128}. It's a trivial matteer to calculate the x chromaticy of the reference white point with these, as follolws:

x= X/(X+ Y + Z) = 112/(112+118+128) = .3128

and unlike a lot of folks keep saying, the y chromaticity is not free to float but rather is given by

y = -3.000 x^2 +2.870 x -.275 = .3293

Clearly you recognize these values as the xy chromaticity of the D65 White point. Note that these are digitally given in the SM, required no tweaking etc. I know that this is hard to believe since no one has ever seen a TV with this feature. Now if you also take that x chromaticity and use it it the equation for the Color Temperature which I have listed in an earlier post, you can solve that for T and get identically T=6500 deg K

No loss of credibility involved in this, it's just pure ingenuity on Mit's part and on my part for the discovery with no inside help.
You have a standing invitation to visit me at my home and to probe my TV with professional grade instruments. I will bet you the cost of your fees and travel that you will measure 6500k on my TV with these numbers present.
Furthermore since lasers don't vary in spectra and power over time like lamps do, you can count on their spectra properties being robust. It is this robustness which allowed for the first time, to dial in a CT by merely coding the Tristimulus values.
The other interesting point is that because these DLP TVS are totally digital, the entire matrix process chain is digital, there is merely a transformation from baseband ones and zeros to a digital representation of these in the form a pulse width modulated wave form. This is, as you know, such that a full scale(100%) white gives rise to a pulse train with pulse width = the Period of the complex AC waveform. A dimmer white less so and on and on. In meter detection of these signals as with detection by the Human Eye, it is merely required to low pass filter these. This, as is well known, merely detects the DC term. And that term is proportional to the instantaneous pulse width.
Indeed we can write(with no assumptions) for the reference white:

RGBW = Inverse[T].{112,118,128}
and the matrix T is such that this calculates RGBW max={118,118,118)

And the DC term in the complex pulse train which represents the detected signal is merely

(pulse width/Pulse Period) = (Y/118)^gamma.

Such things as the 10% luminance being .63% of the ref white just fall out rigorously for gamma assumed = 2.2, we have .1^2.2 = .0063

Now everything about this is digital and robust; the pulse width has the same accuracy as the original digital signals, with S/N = 2^number bits etc.
None of these things can change at all during the life of the TV. Any change at all would be associated with a complete failure of the TV.
Now I am a Theorist and I know these things well, but I don't expect these notions to be transparent immediately to all. But I think if you would look closely at the beauty of all this and try to wrap your mind around the profound implications, you would be as excited as I am.
Finally, I like you Leonard, and I understand your reluctance to believe all this at first glance. But please don't insult me, or question my credibility. I was probably studying these sorts of things long before you were born.
As to the exact wavelengths of the lasers, we all know these lambdas to within a few nanometers. And nothing that I have said here would be impacted by a small change in the laser wavelength. The D65 white point is the same, BTW, for all Gamuts.

So John--

How are things like black level, off angle viewing, and geometry?

Thanks :)

Latest issue of Sound & Vision magazine has a review of this set. They seemed to be favorably impressed by it.

Latest issue of Sound & Vision magazine has a review of this set. They seemed to be favorably impressed by it.


Thanks. Not sure if I can trust them since Mitsubishi pays big bucks for adds but ,since this set has been so low profile, better than nothing.

Latest issue of Sound & Vision magazine has a review of this set. They seemed to be favorably impressed by it.
How much did they pay for it? Did they feel that $7,000 was too much for tech that improved on...well...nothing really?

I don't know why people want to kill this set befor it has been out for mass marketing. If the picture quallity is as good or better than Pioneer KURO, does 10" thick or dlp really matter? So far all the people who bought this set love it ,At that PRICE! When it is mass produced and the price comes down,(and it will),I see alot of people interested in these. It's Not Like I have anything against Pioneer. I own Pioneer Elite SC-09 reciever and 05FD blu-ray. Was just looking at Pioneer elite Kuro to day. 60 " $6000.00 and it doen't even come with a table stand, $400.00 more. Just because its thin or plasma. Sorry Until I see it & if the picture quality is that good I don't care if its 10 or 15 inches thick or dpl. Anyway thats my 2 &1?2 cents worth
As good as or better than a Kuro?!?! Talk about beer goggles.

So John--

How are things like black level, off angle viewing, and geometry?

Thanks :)

The geometry is perfect. When I have a moment I'll take a photo of the screen with a geo pattern and post that. The black levels are profoundly deep. When I took delivery, A Mits Representative came to my home and specifically went into the Service area and brought up a geometry test pattern to check for any geometry defects that might have resulted during shipment. He also gave me a copy of the Mitsubishi Demo DVD, which has many scenes showing profoundly black details.
Angle viewing is significantly better than any DLP I have seen before.( and I have owned three of them and still own two). In my main viewing room, the screen is acceptably viewable from any location in the room. I have tried to concoct a method to measure the viewing angle quantitatively, but I haven't sorted that out yet. I do own a Sekonic 758 Light Meter which I plan to use to measue Lumens as function of angle at fixed distance. I'll get to that eventually. But unlike many folks these days, I believe Mitsubishi has reported it's viewing angle capability correctly. Unlike in the past, most hype these days is not Marketing hype but rather the negative hype that comes from cynnical on lookers. I have found all of Mitsubishi's claims regarding ths TV to be right on target in every aspect that I have examined.
I would direct you also to the HDGur's revieew from last fall. It's very thorough with technical descriptions of may aspects of the TV.

As good as or better than a Kuro?!?! Talk about beer goggles.

I didn't it was better. I haven,t seen it yet. I SAID IF!! Guess you couldn't read to good with you beer goggles on. But I guess you already seen it properly displayed. Sorry I have and do own alot of pioneer elite. Kuro is not the god of tv's. Might be the best out there now ,(but that is some people's opinion), Everone has there own prefence, unless this is now the soviet union.

I didn't it was better. I haven,t seen it yet. I SAID IF!!


I think it is questionable that it is any better than a LED-DLP unless Lasers void the laws of physics. Is anyone thinking that LED-DLP matches a Kuro Plasma?

IMO, if you have Laser-DLP and and LED-DLP both properly configured with BT-709 color primaries (as close as they can get), almost no one could tell the difference.

You have the following equivalents between LED and Laser:

fast switching capability.
three color primary sources to eliminate the color wheel.
light source lifespan running the life of the set.
Similar picture and contrast from the DLP engine.

You have the following differences:
LED is much, much less expensive.
Laser has ??? Laser mystique ???

Laser Mystique worth a ton of extra money. Though it is Moot in my area. I haven't seen a rear projector around here (Canada) in over a year. I was interested in seeing a LED-DLP but I couldn't find one.

I have a Samsung 67" LED-DLP I've bought/sold two 6020 Kuros for friends in the past month. My RPTV was professionally calibrated and looks terrific but different than the Kuros I saw last week at CES. My friend's Kuros will be calibrated later this month. I suspect they will look similar in quality to mine but different; glossy screen vs. non-reflective to start. I think the choice is more one of wall hanging vs floor standing, etc.

Jack

Whatever the light source, you are stuck with the poor native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

guys for all the input. I respect everyone's opinions, and always have. I just love when you have so call know it alls or close minded people who think they are right, and bash anyone's post. As I always said not everyone likes plasma, lcd or dlp. We all have our own needs and likes. It just makes me laught that some think that kuro is the oonly choice. It's a great tv, but like i said it's not for everyone (the God of all tv's). And it's not the price, because when it comes to my home theater price is not a factor. Thanks again to all the great people on this site

thanks agin Guys

Whatever the light source, you are stuck with the poor native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

Sure....haha. If you say so...

Sure....haha. If you say so...
Maybe you can explain why what I said is not true.

Whatever the light source, you are stuck with the poor native contrast ratio of the DLP chip.

The contrast has been tested to be on par with the Kuro.

I have a feeling a lot of people that are making wild speculations about the LaserVue are justifying their expensive plasma purchases.

I don't own either the Kuro or LaserVue but to my eyes the LaserVue is hands down the best HD display I've ever seen. The Kuro is great but there is just something about the LaserVue that jumps out.

I just hope the price comes down this year. I know you can currently get it for around $5,500 - $6,000.

It should also be pointed out that the LaserVue is 3D ready. I think later in 2009 you'll see several true 3D blu-ray titles that will take advantage of the 3D capabilities of the DLP Samsung and Mitsubishi sits. I don't think there are any 1080p 3D plasmas.

The contrast has been tested to be on par with the Kuro.

I have a feeling a lot of people that are making wild speculations about the LaserVue are justifying their expensive plasma purchases.

I don't own either the Kuro or LaserVue but to my eyes the LaserVue is hands down the best HD display I've ever seen. The Kuro is great but there is just something about the LaserVue that jumps out.

While I'm glad you like the Laservue, I like it as well, but I've yet to see a professional review that gave the black level and contrast numbers. To my knowledge the only two "reviews" so far were conducted under conditions controlled by Mitsubishi. The reviewers were not given a production sample to test in their own testing facility. I haven't seen the Sound and Vision review yet, does it contain the black level and contrast numbers?

The reason I'm baffled about this I got to compare the Elite 151 and the Laservue side by side. I did everything possible in the user menu to improve the level of black. Try as I might, it didn't come close to the Pioneer.

Yeah, I just don't see it either. I saw a good display, I didn't see great and this was before I got my Elite 151. I also don't see anything that would make me want to sell my 70XBR2 for it either. Maybe on the next generation sets, they will be spectacular. I think Mitsubishi also needs to concentrate on the 70" + sets a little more as 65" there is more competition from the FP end.

I have a feeling a lot of people that are making wild speculations about the LaserVue are justifying their expensive plasma purchases.


I have a cheap LCD so not justifying anything.

I have seen a lot of people try to justify the extreme price of Laser-DLP over Laser-LED when they essentially have the same picture characteristics.

I have yet to see any information indicating that Laser-DLP offers and real benefit over LED-DLP. Changing one tri-color light source for another is going to change next to nothing.

People trying to justify this very expensive purchase like to compare to the most expensive large Kuro on the market. This seems to be a bit disingenuous when the much more apt comparison is LED-DLP which shares almost identical parameters, but cost 1/3 the price.

The elephant in the room for Laser-DLP is LED-DLP.

As good as or better than a Kuro?!?! Talk about beer goggles.
mmmmmmm....beer goggles

I have a cheap LCD so not justifying anything.

I have seen a lot of people try to justify the extreme price of Laser-DLP over Laser-LED when they essentially have the same picture characteristics.

I have yet to see any information indicating that Laser-DLP offers and real benefit over LED-DLP. Changing one tri-color light source for another is going to change next to nothing.

People trying to justify this very expensive purchase like to compare to the most expensive large Kuro on the market. This seems to be a bit disingenuous when the much more apt comparison is LED-DLP which shares almost identical parameters, but cost 1/3 the price.

The elephant in the room for Laser-DLP is LED-DLP.

I guess we'll have to disagree because there is no comparison between the picture quality between the A750 and the LaserVue that I've seen setup at numerous stores. There's nothing wrong with the A750 but it just seems like you're average DLP to me; in fact I think the current lamp based DLP's from Mitsubishi have a better picture than that A750's.

I guess we'll have to disagree because there is no comparison between the picture quality between the A750 and the LaserVue that I've seen setup at numerous stores. There's nothing wrong with the A750 but it just seems like you're average DLP to me; in fact I think the current lamp based DLP's from Mitsubishi have a better picture than that A750's.
...and you're basing this on viewing them in B&M stores?

...and you're basing this on viewing them in B&M stores?

Opposed to the Taj Mahal? The TV doesn't morph into something else in your home. One of the last places I saw it was at Modia in Houston where they told me the sets had been calibrated and the setup and lighting is something like you might have at home.

jayselle,

Home Theater magazine measured the black level of the Elite 111 at .001, resulting in a contrast ratio of better than 37,000 to 1. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Laservue stacks up against that.

The contrast has been tested to be on par with the Kuro.

I have a feeling a lot of people that are making wild speculations about the LaserVue are justifying their expensive plasma purchases.

I don't own either the Kuro or LaserVue but to my eyes the LaserVue is hands down the best HD display I've ever seen. The Kuro is great but there is just something about the LaserVue that jumps out.

I just hope the price comes down this year. I know you can currently get it for around $5,500 - $6,000.


I do not own a Kuro and am not interested in them, they are too small and the black level on the G8 models was straight up not acceptable, even the G9 is still not good enough. I also don't happen to think $7k is a lot of money for a good display so the cost of the Laservue is a non issue. However, what I demand in my next display is blacks that are truly black, anything inferior to G9 Kuro black levels is not even an option as far as I am concerned no matter how cheap it is. Speckle and dither noise are also not acceptable as I don't have either of those issues with my current display and see no reason to tolerate them on a replacement which is supposed to be an "upgrade".

I do not own a Kuro and am not interested in them, they are too small and the black level on the G8 models was straight up not acceptable, even the G9 is still not good enough. I also don't happen to think $7k is a lot of money for a good display so the cost of the Laservue is a non issue. However, what I demand in my next display is blacks that are truly black, anything inferior to G9 Kuro black levels is not even an option as far as I am concerned no matter how cheap it is. Speckle and dither noise are also not acceptable as I don't have either of those issues with my current display and see no reason to tolerate them on a replacement which is supposed to be an "upgrade".

You must own a CRT greater than 60 inches or an extremely high end front projector?

Kind of like saying the Shelby Aero (fastest street car in the world) which can only do 250 MPH isn't fast enough for you. I'm not sure what else you're going to find that's much better.

I do not own a Kuro and am not interested in them, they are too small and the black level on the G8 models was straight up not acceptable, even the G9 is still not good enough. I also don't happen to think $7k is a lot of money for a good display so the cost of the Laservue is a non issue. However, what I demand in my next display is blacks that are truly black, anything inferior to G9 Kuro black levels is not even an option as far as I am concerned no matter how cheap it is. Speckle and dither noise are also not acceptable as I don't have either of those issues with my current display and see no reason to tolerate them on a replacement which is supposed to be an "upgrade".


"Good Display" being the key phrase here. While I could afford 7K for an excellent display, the Laservue certainly doesn't fit into that category. Speckled, grainy pq with garish colors leave me with one word for Laservue-Underwhelming. Now, maybe at around 2.5 to 3K, you could put up with the less than stellar pq the Laservue provides, but then again why not get the excellent 835 series MITS has put out. A much better value for the many buyers who are concerned about price and value.

Is the "speckling" that some of you are referring to the "silk screen effect" (SSE) that is commonly found (and complained about) in other RPTVs?

Is the "speckling" that some of you are referring to the "silk screen effect" (SSE) that is commonly found (and complained about) in other RPTVs?

When I see SSE, the look of the grain on the screen stays static and I can just not focus on it and look at the whole picture. The speckling I saw on the Laserview was different because it looked like SSE but the the grain appears to change (specks change between light and dark constantly), making it harder to ignore than SSE and way more annoying IMO.

When I see SSE, the look of the grain on the screen stays static and I can just not focus on it and look at the whole picture. The speckling I saw on the Laserview was different because it looked like SSE but the the grain appears to change (specks change between light and dark constantly), making it harder to ignore than SSE and way more annoying IMO.
Is this when paused? Because if it is not, what you may be seeing is actual 'grain', which would change as it is a part of the original media from which the image was mastered.

Perhaps the LaserVue's HD image, combined with that of a Blu-ray player reveals more of what has been there all along? I recall reading articles on classic films being released to Blu-ray, and that many viewers are complaining in that the movie doesn't look all that much better in HD. ...that it looks grainy, etc. and it was pointed out that given the technology and type of film stock in use at the time of the film's production, that it 'was' the way the film originally appeared.

Any thoughts?

Spence

Is this when paused? Because if it is not, what you may be seeing is actual 'grain', which would change as it is a part of the original media from which the image was mastered.

Perhaps the LaserVue's HD image, combined with that of a Blu-ray player reveals more of what has been there all along? I recall reading articles on classic films being released to Blu-ray, and that many viewers are complaining in that the movie doesn't look all that much better in HD. ...that it looks grainy, etc. and it was pointed out that given the technology and type of film stock in use at the time of the film's production, that it 'was' the way the film originally appeared.

Any thoughts?

Spence

It wasn't paused but it definitely looked different than when you see SSE on a blub or LED rear projection set. Even when there is motion on a lamp or LED based set, I can see the SSE grain and the picture is moving behind it but the grain pattern as a whole stays the same even though parts of it might get lighter or darker. The LaserVue looked like the grain itself was speckling as the motion was happening behind it so the grain pattern looked like it was constantly changing. I guess it looks like when you see a laser pointer shining on a wall. The texture of the wall doesn't change but you can notice that the red dot itself looks like it's speckling. Maybe that's a bad example but I'm not sure how else to describe it. I don't know what setting the set was on (Ken Cranes in Torrance a couple of months ago) but I am guessing it was brilliant so maybe the other settings would tone it down. I used to have a Samsung HL-S6767W and I learned to ignore the SSE for the most part but I don't know if I could ignore it on this set.

Over in the Laservue Owners thread UMR has just posted some very interesting numbers regarding a Laservue he just calibrated. He measured an on/off contrast ratio of 2000 to 1.

Over in the Laservue Owners thread UMR has just posted some very interesting numbers regarding a Laservue he just calibrated. He measured an on/off contrast ratio of 2000 to 1.

link?

link?

Erm, I'm sure you could have found it, but if not there's a link to the thread at the end.

Seggers

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1108686

Edit: And you did....

Would you rather have a 65" Laservue, or the WD-65835 (maybe even a WD-73835) & a Lumagen Radiance?

Erm, I'm sure you could have found it, but if not there's a link to the thread at the end.

Seggers

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1108686

Edit: And you did....

Thanks for posting that Seggers!

I searched on "LaserVue" as well as "UMR" (even looking at posts via the link in his profile) and found no thread by that name.

Perhaps it wasn't fully established in the search index?

Would you rather have a 65" Laservue, or the WD-65835 (maybe even a WD-73835) & a Lumagen Radiance?

A 65" Panasonic plasma. DLPs are like gramophones nowadays. Laserview is new technology but I haven't seen it yet and some reports indicate it's not ready for prime time.

A 65" Panasonic plasma. DLPs are like gramophones nowadays. Laserview is new technology but I haven't seen it yet and some reports indicate it's not ready for prime time.

If you're going to pick outside the choices, you might as well go with the 9th gen Kuro...

Also Laserview = DLP != gramophone...

Would you rather have a 65" Laservue, or the WD-65835 (maybe even a WD-73835) & a Lumagen Radiance?

A 65" Panasonic plasma. DLPs are like gramophones nowadays. Laserview is new technology but I haven't seen it yet and some reports indicate it's not ready for prime time.

Hmmm, didn't really answer the question there. Ya Hafta speak up, we Gramaphone (home) users can't quite hear ya! :p

Given the chose (which I wasn't really as I couldn't afford the 7k entry fee), I spent my money on the 73835.

The plasmas might be nice if they didn't weigh a ton, burn more energy than the sun and cost both arms and legs for a decent size (ie 73).

Still, each to their own.....

Seggers

Here's the kicker, since Pioneer will be using Panasonic glass ( to Pioneers specs) it is believed they will also adopt their screen sizes too. Which means a 65" is most likely on the horizon for 10G Pioneers. In that case Mitsubishi shouldn't even bother with a 65" set, unless of course, they do it for half what it costs now. They should just concentrate on the larger sizes, that's if....... they come out with any more LaserVue again........ :eek:

Hmmm, didn't really answer the question there. Ya Hafta speak up, we Gramaphone (home) users can't quite hear ya! :p

Given the chose (which I wasn't really as I couldn't afford the 7k entry fee), I spent my money on the 73835.

The plasmas might be nice if they didn't weigh a ton, burn more energy than the sun and cost both arms and legs for a decent size (ie 73).

Still, each to their own.....

Seggers

I don't disagree. I also have a 73" gramophone (73927) but I wouldn't buy it again. The 73" still makes sense for the reason you mentioned (price of a 70" LCD or plasma) but a 65" gramophone? Give me a break!

I don't disagree. I also have a 73" gramophone (73927) but I wouldn't buy it again. The 73" still makes sense for the reason you mentioned (price of a 70" LCD or plasma) but a 65" gramophone? Give me a break!

It's all good.

I would buy my 73 again. I went from a 36" 4:3 CRT to my old Sony 60 and it was a huge jump. From the 60 to the 73, not so much.

So in that context, a 65 incher would be a huge jump and is an OK choice.

Still, I'd like for them to bring out the 70+ model/s that rumours have been spouted on in here. An 80+ RP that meant I didn't have to fully rearrange my living room again would be a good thing.

Seggers

Hmmm, didn't really answer the question there. Ya Hafta speak up, we Gramaphone (home) users can't quite hear ya! :p

Given the chose (which I wasn't really as I couldn't afford the 7k entry fee), I spent my money on the 73835.

The plasmas might be nice if they didn't weigh a ton, burn more energy than the sun and cost both arms and legs for a decent size (ie 73).

Still, each to their own.....

Seggers

Although I didn't end up buying the 835, I considered it and was impressed by the pq on it. Having seen Laservue close to an 835, I didn't observe a whole lot of improvement with the Laservue. The ridiculous price MITS put on the LV makes the 835 a HUGE no-brainer.

Not to beat a dead horse, but UMR measured the post calibration on/off contrast ratio of the Laservue at 2000 to 1. When he calibrated my Samsung HLS 6188, in 2006, he measured it's on/off contrast ratio at 3391 to 1.

The light output is not the problem, it's black level is. Generation 2, if we see it, will have to be much blacker and cheaper.

Not to beat a dead horse, but UMR measured the post calibration on/off contrast ratio of the Laservue at 2000 to 1. When he calibrated my Samsung HLS 6188, in 2006, he measured it's on/off contrast ratio at 3391 to 1.

The light output is not the problem, it's black level is. Generation 2, if we see it, will have to be much blacker and cheaper.

However, on the HLS 6188, was this with the iris locked down via the service menu? (Samsung is only advertising a contrast ratio of 2500:1 for the latest 6 series sets without an iris...)

However, on the HLS 6188, was this with the iris locked down via the service menu? (Samsung is only advertising a contrast ratio of 2500:1 for the latest 6 series sets without an iris...)

I really don't know.

Well last night I was finally able to get a hold of a store in the tri-state area that had the MIT's LV on display & view it up close & personal.

No store in NYC has it, but I was able to track one down in NJ that did. 6ave store had one in a Paramus, NJ store. Sales person took me to see it.

My initial impression was how flat it looks from a direct view, but obviously as I got a look from the side & back, I realized the bulk is there, but not as bad as previous RPTV models.

PQ was nothing to ride home about, but it had nothing to do w/ the TV itself, it was the sales ppl for not having it tweaked & also having no Blu-Ray player connected. Instead they had a DVR that "simulated" what HD content would look like on it. Dumb yeah I know, but hey not all stores & sales ppl are very bright.

They had the TV listed @ full MSRP, & I was told b/c the price was locked in on orders from MIT's.

I wish the MIT's LV was @ least tweaked/calibrated, even a little to get a real good idea of it's true capabilities & that they had a Blu-ray player w/ BR content to see.

W/ the way things are w/ the economy, I can't justify paying premium for this TV.

Maybe toward the end of this yr if the price falls drastically to reasonable & affordable levels I'll consider it again, but by that time, MIT's might already announce a 2nd-Gen LV HDTV. We shall see.

Originally posted by TMSKILZ:
Maybe toward the end of this yr if the price falls drastically to reasonable & affordable levels I'll consider it again, but by that time, MIT's might already announce a 2nd-Gen LV HDTV. We shall see.

I am thinking we are never going to see a second gen. My guess is in March Mits will announce to many problems with the laser engine and drop the line. Plus, go to any retailer of the normal consumers and you will find RPTVs relegated to a small corner or back of the store. My only guess is most people either don't have room for large TVs, or they have a lot of money to spend twice the money on a large flat panel over a DLP. There is no better bang for the buck than RP DLPs.

That could be, but according to the people that I have spoken to at Mitsubishi, they have had problems with supplies of one of the components and the focus is largely on the second generation sets at this point, which they hope to introduce late in 2009 or shortly thereafter. As I have said many times, we will know when we know and all the speculation is just that. In 2010, you can probably make a reasonable judgement regarding the life of the laser RPTV technology and the direction of Mits in the consumer display market. Before that, you are just guessing.

If Mits can make margin with a Generation 2 set, at half the price (or less) of generation 1, we'll probably see a G2. If they can't, we won't. They can of course do whatever they want, but they're wasting their time unless they can market a solid RPTV that provides a bigger screen, for less money, than a flat panel.

It would help if they got rid of the speckle and improved the black level too.

That could be, but according to the people that I have spoken to at Mitsubishi, they have had problems with supplies of one of the components and the focus is largely on the second generation sets at this point, which they hope to introduce late in 2009 or shortly thereafter. As I have said many times, we will know when we know and all the speculation is just that. In 2010, you can probably make a reasonable judgement regarding the life of the laser RPTV technology and the direction of Mits in the consumer display market. Before that, you are just guessing.


I just don't see how Mitsubishi is going to market any second generation RP set in 2010, no large chain will sell it and few smaller stores will. Their people are smoking some good stuff if they think they have that long, no matter how good this set is. By 2010 flat panels will be so ingrained into the public consciousness that no one will go near an RP set.

With the closeout prices now on RP sets I wonder how any manufacturers are making money. By 2010 LV sets will have to be so cheap to sell, that Mitsubishi will just end up loosing money on them and with the lousy LCD's that they sell Mitsubishi's consumer division might not make it at all.

I just don't see how Mitsubishi is going to market any second generation RP set in 2010, no large chain will sell it and few smaller stores will. Their people are smoking some good stuff if they think they have that long, no matter how good this set is. By 2010 flat panels will be so ingrained into the public consciousness that no one will go near an RP set.

With the closeout prices now on RP sets I wonder how any manufacturers are making money. By 2010 LV sets will have to be so cheap to sell, that Mitsubishi will just end up loosing money on them and with the lousy LCD's that they sell Mitsubishi's consumer division might not make it at all.

I think you underestimate the demad for RP. Lots of people have cabinets built around them, or furniture that can easily accommodate a RPTV that makes a flat panel irrelevant. I service them all the time and people ask about what they might replace their sets with, and many just don't care about flat panels and are thrilled with the idea that the newest sets are half as deep as their old one. Just because you can't imagine it does not mean that there is not a significant part of the market that can justify selling them. As for the retailers, there will be lots of small dealers happy to sell them when the big box stores will not, and it may allow them to increase margins, making them more desirable to sell.

I have been in the business of selling big screen TV for nearly thirty years and have seen all of the cycles and trends. There is certainly a sizable niche for RPTV, IME. Just look at the part of the market that projectors have. That is a much more limited application than RPTV. There are lots of different applications for lots of different products and I see no reason why a competitive, reliable, and high performance product cannot survive in this category. Those qualifiers are the question, in my mind. Can they make it competitive, reliable, and high performance? Time will tell.

There must be some reason why everyone is leaving the RP market.

There must be some reason why everyone is leaving the RP market.


Samsung is gone and I'm wondering how long MITS will produce bulb sets. A salesman who told me 6 months ago that Samsung was leaving the dlp business also told me that 2009 would be the last years for MITS bulbs. Not surprising since it hard to believe that they are making anything on the bulbs. Today on Amazon a 73735 for 1.6K, 736 for 2.1K. Not alot of profit margin there. Then the Laservue for 7K. People who will spend 2K for a 73 inch set aren't going suddenly start spending 7K, especially in this economy. Now it is going to be 2010 until Laservue reappears?? Sounds to me like a graceful way of bowing out. But if somehow they actually think Laservue can still make a go of it, they better get prices down to the 2-3K price point or they are just wasting time.

Mitsubishi says that they will make the lamp based sets as long as they can make them cheaper than the laser sets. The lamp based sets will be the entry level until the cost on the lasers comes down enough, if that ever happens. Once again, it is too early to speculate with any degree of confidence...

... There is certainly a sizable niche for RPTV, IME. Just look at the part of the market that projectors have. That is a much more limited application than RPTV. There are lots of different applications for lots of different products and I see no reason why a competitive, reliable, and high performance product cannot survive in this category. ...

I think this illustrates why it's so silly for people to make these sweeping egotistical declarations about what will survive and what will not. This world has many hundreds of millions of consumers who can afford HDTVs. That's an enormous market. With the Internet for information and selling, there's no reason why a large number of niche markets can't survive and prosper.

A part of the problem up until now has been the fact that the technology has been relatively new. Now that the industry has millions of units made and used, it is a lot easier for manufacturers to introduce innovations. They can more confidently predict future reliability. Without the huge R&D costs that used to be needed, they can make a buck on smaller volumes. Just look at the variety of specialty products available to audio enthusiasts.

There must be some reason why everyone is leaving the RP market.

The reason is clear. The major manufacturers want to move high volumes. RPTV was under 20% of the TV market last year. Samsung and others are not niche market players. Mitsubishi has positioned itself as the Big Screen Comapany for years and wants to focus on the large screen market where panels will struggle to be competitive with RPTV. They are counting on the laser technology to ultimately allow them to build a high value large set to compete with the larger panels as a value product. The shipping cost alone could be a significant advantage in cost in the 70"+ sizes. This assumes that they can make laser work effectively. Even if they can't, the lamp based sets are a pretty good value and they have the price of the lamps so low now that it is not the negative that it used to be.

Without the huge R&D costs that used to be needed, they can make a buck on smaller volumes. Just look at the variety of specialty products available to audio enthusiasts.

If they could charge mid to high end HiFi audio like prices small volume high end rear projection TV’s would be very viable. $7k is WAY too cheap for a top quality product that really explores what rear projection is capable of..

Take a top model JVC LCoS projector with 50,000:1 native contrast ratio, design a special lens for it, mount it in a box with a top quality rear projection screen and you would no doubt have a seriously good RPTV that would blow Laservue, Plasma and LCD out of the water, but its going to cost more like $15k-$20k. Still for the potential size and quality it’s a bargain, bring it on I’ll buy one. I have been considering building my own since know one seems interested in producing such a true high end product.

Laservue can’t even match the performance of the best lamp based RPTV’s, let alone get even close to the custom made setup I outlined above. 2000:1 contrast is hopelessly inadequate IMHO, and I can’t see how the videophile types would be interested.

Laservue strikes me as just a way of getting a fashionably slim RPTV rather then a serious attempt at outright high end performance, which existing lamp based projection systems are already capable of.

... I have been considering building my own since know one seems interested in producing such a true high end product....

Interesting. Home-builds are possibly a viable niche market in themselves, like computers. I could well see companies making generic chassis which could accept a variety of light engines. Issues of focussing would probably be no worse than for front-projection. The hobbist could become as fanatic as they wanted about issues such as light leakage and interior reflection.

Cool.. You could sell them as kits to serious DIY'ers. :)

If they could charge mid to high end HiFi audio like prices small volume high end rear projection TV’s would be very viable. $7k is WAY too cheap for a top quality product that really explores what rear projection is capable of..

Take a top model JVC LCoS projector with 50,000:1 native contrast ratio, design a special lens for it, mount it in a box with a top quality rear projection screen and you would no doubt have a seriously good RPTV that would blow Laservue, Plasma and LCD out of the water, but its going to cost more like $15k-$20k. Still for the potential size and quality it’s a bargain, bring it on I’ll buy one. I have been considering building my own since know one seems interested in producing such a true high end product.

Laservue can’t even match the performance of the best lamp based RPTV’s, let alone get even close to the custom made setup I outlined above. 2000:1 contrast is hopelessly inadequate IMHO, and I can’t see how the videophile types would be interested.

Laservue strikes me as just a way of getting a fashionably slim RPTV rather then a serious attempt at outright high end performance, which existing lamp based projection systems are already capable of.

Is the 50,000 to 1 figure based on the raw performance of the LCOS chip or on a dynamic iris or other full screen dynamic contrast method?

. Laservue can’t even match the performance of the best lamp based RPTV’s, let alone get even close to the custom made setup I outlined above. 2000:1 contrast is hopelessly inadequate IMHO, and I can’t see how the videophile types would be interested.

Laservue strikes me as just a way of getting a fashionably slim RPTV rather then a serious attempt at outright high end performance, which existing lamp based projection systems are already capable of.

The laservue was promoted and priced as a high end product, but I agree with you that at this stage the only thing high end about it is the price.

The only theory I've seen that makes sense, and I admit that I scoffed at it then, is this. Mits sees an opportunity to be the only player in large screen RPTV. They never intended the current set to be anything more than a test product. They priced it high, never intending to sell many of the first generation in case of bugs. Once they have a tested, reliable product, they(hopefully) use the economy of scale to get the price down to the level of their bulb sets and faze them out. Then they complete against flat panels the same way they do now, more screen for less money.

I'm begining to believe the Laservue was never intended to be an assault on the state of the art. Still, there is a market for lower cost, large screen sets which is where I predict the Laservue will eventually go. I simply made the mistaken assumption that the advertising and high price were indicative of a ground breaking product.

The laservue was promoted and priced as a high end product, but I agree with you that at this stage the only thing high end about it is the price.

The only theory I've seen that makes sense, and I admit that I scoffed at it then, is this. Mits sees an opportunity to be the only player in large screen RPTV. They never intended the current set to be anything more than a test product. They priced it high, never intending to sell many of the first generation in case of bugs. Once they have a tested, reliable product, they(hopefully) use the economy of scale to get the price down to the level of their bulb sets and faze them out. Then they complete against flat panels the same way they do now, more screen for less money.

I'm begining to believe the Laservue was never intended to be an assault on the state of the art. Still, there is a market for lower cost, large screen sets which is where I predict the Laservue will eventually go. I simply made the mistaken assumption that the advertising and high price were indicative of a ground breaking product.
welcome to the club!
this is the same thing many of us have been saying for months.

I hope that version is true, but even if that's the case, they better hurry up before there is no place to sell these sets. Wouldn't mind buying my parents a 65" Laservue at 2K ! :D

Or a 75 incher for 3K. Could happen. Would sure have the market to itself.

First...the laservue needs to be an improvement compared to the bulb-based unit. Right now it isn't and the price is just silly.

First...the laservue needs to be an improvement compared to the bulb-based unit. Right now it isn't and the price is just silly.

Actually, it is an improvement to some. Its enhanced color mode will presumably stray from the director's vision, but look how many people are going wild over the enhanced framerate modes the latest LCDs are offering, which make film look like video...

Is the 50,000 to 1 figure based on the raw performance of the LCOS chip or on a dynamic iris or other full screen dynamic contrast method?


50,000:1 is the quoted native contrast ratio of the projector, not the LCoS chips (which would be higher) and the JVC does not use a dynamic iris, it does not need to with such a staggering native CR.

Manufactures CR numbers are usually widely optimistic, but JVC have been very honest in the past with independent tests showing CR performance as good or better then quoted specs on previous models.
I have not yet seen a test of the new DLA-HD750 and contrast ratios of 50,000:1 are very difficult to measure with accuracy, however it’s reasonably safe to assume performance will be exceptional and at least as good as the G9 Kuro, most probably better.

The type of rear projection screen used would have a significant effect on black level and performance should be significantly better then a front projection system.

50,000:1 is the quoted native contrast ratio of the projector, not the LCoS chips (which would be higher) and the JVC does not use a dynamic iris, it does not need to with such a staggering native CR.

Manufactures CR numbers are usually widely optimistic, but JVC have been very honest in the past with independent tests showing CR performance as good or better then quoted specs on previous models.
I have not yet seen a test of the new DLA-HD750 and contrast ratios of 50,000:1 are very difficult to measure with accuracy, however it’s reasonably safe to assume performance will be exceptional and at least as good as the G9 Kuro, most probably better.

The type of rear projection screen used would have a significant effect on black level and performance should be significantly better then a front projection system.

Wow...RP and panels are much more practical for me, but I'll have to seriously consider FP next go as well...

(OTOH maybe with FP and a discretely mounted screen, I wouldn't have to choose between a bookshelf and a TV in that space...Hmm....)

Wow...RP and panels are much more practical for me, but I'll have to seriously consider FP next go as well...

(OTOH maybe with FP and a discretely mounted screen, I wouldn't have to choose between a bookshelf and a TV in that space...Hmm....)


Unfortunately front projection imposes serious limitations, light control and a blacked out viewing environment are required for good black levels, after all a white or silver screen can only look black in total darkness and there must be no reflections from the room or furnishings or ANSI contrast will be degraded. Rear projection avoids these problems but requires more space and a good rear projection screen is expensive.

So what is the deal? How much will the 65" laser TV cost? and when?

I was watching the Bob Hope Classic on Golf HD and the Mits corporate rep mentioned LaserVue during his interview as a major focus for the company.

I hope that version is true, but even if that's the case, they better hurry up before there is no place to sell these sets. Wouldn't mind buying my parents a 65" Laservue at 2K ! :D

Or, intead of waiting ten years, you could get them a 67" Sammy LED DLP NOW, and for less than that.

But you'd better hurry, they're going fast.

So what is the deal? How much will the 65" laser TV cost? and when?
Probably $6,000 - $7,000 and it won't be any better than blub/LED based sets.

Probably $6,000 - $7,000 and it won't be any better than blub/LED based sets.

This is contrary to the normal history of technical development, and certainly of HDTV in the past years. New technologies almost always decline drastically in price once they get established, and usually improve substantially in quality. I see no reason why laser TV should be any different.

As Leonard (lcaillo) says, let's wait and see what the future brings, rather than try to pronounce it in advance.

This is contrary to the normal history of technical development, and certainly of HDTV in the past years. New technologies almost always decline drastically in price once they get established, and usually improve substantially in quality. I see no reason why laser TV should be any different.

As Leonard (lcaillo) says, let's wait and see what the future brings, rather than try to pronounce it in advance.
I know. I was being sarcastic. I feel for the Mits customers and fans who were looking forward to this. They were let down and the price was just an insult.

I don't understand how they were let down. Mitsubishi never promised a first generation product that was cheap and full production. They have never done differently with any product type than they did with this one. Laservue has come out just like the other technologies.

I don't understand how they were let down. Mitsubishi never promised a first generation product that was cheap and full production. They have never done differently with any product type than they did with this one. Laservue has come out just like the other technologies.
A $7,000 display that doesn't improve on existing technology? Buy a bulb or LED based display and save for your money. The LaserVue has landed with a resounding thud...

It is a limited production proof of concept model, not a mass produced item. If they can make it work there is no reason to believe that the second generation units will not be much less expensive. The LCOS unit that they came out with before deciding to move forward with DLP instead was an 82" behemoth that sold for $18K.

I am sure that there are hundreds of products that you would be equally offended by the price of, and the vendors would be similarly attentive to your concerns. It is what it is, and so far, there are a lot more dealers and clients wanting to buy it than there are sets available, so the price could likely be $8000 and it would make little difference. This model was likely not made for you.

A $7,000 display that doesn't improve on existing technology? Buy a bulb or LED based display and save for your money. The LaserVue has landed with a resounding thud...

Again, it does improve considerably on existing technology by using sophisticated logic and lasers to extrapolate a much richer and more vibrant color palete with which to escape the dull color and other arbitrary constraints imposed by the Rec. 709 straight jacket...

And this is not dissimilar in spirit to the brilliant dynamic quality with which the latest 120Hz LCDs gift film...

This model was likely not made for you.
No, apparently this model was made for folks who want to pay twice as much for something that is just as good as what they already have. The second generation LV cannot cost more than the bulb based versions if it does not also offer superior performance. I doubt that the price will come down much.

If you want to spend $7,000...I suggest you spend it on something which performs better. Just my opinion...

Again, it does improve considerably on existing technology by using sophisticated logic and lasers to extrapolate a much richer and more vibrant color palete with which to escape the dull color and other arbitrary constraints imposed by the Rec. 709 straight jacket...

I disagree. Straying from accuracy isn't an improvement.

And this is not dissimilar in spirit to the brilliant dynamic quality with which the latest 120Hz LCDs gift film...

I would hardly call that a gift.

No, apparently this model was made for folks who want to pay twice as much for something that is just as good as what they already have. The second generation LV cannot cost more than the bulb based versions if it does not also offer superior performance. I doubt that the price will come down much.

If you want to spend $7,000...I suggest you spend it on something which performs better. Just my opinion...

Not only would second generation sets need to be a whole lot cheaper, they must be a whole lot better. After hearing all the "plasma killer" hype, you put it well, "they landed with a thud". I've seen three Laservues now, two right next to 65835 sets and I didn't detect much difference at all. Buy an 835 and take the rest of the money you'll save and go on a nice vacation.

I disagree. Straying from accuracy isn't an improvement.



I would hardly call that a gift.


I probably agree with you on both counts. However, that was my devil's advocate presentation of the other side...

I probably agree with you on both counts. However, that was my devil's advocate presentation of the other side...
Got it. Thank you.

Again, it does improve considerably on existing technology .... to extrapolate a much richer and more vibrant color palete with which to escape the dull color and other arbitrary constraints imposed by the Rec. 709 straight jacket...


As does the Sammy LED DLP for $5000 LESS!!:eek::eek:

The one thing I always saw as an advantage to the Mits of Samsung was they were using DC 4 in their models. So I emailed TI and asked them if Mits was the only ones using DC 4 in their TV. Here is the response.

"Thank you for contacting DLP(r) Products. Samsung uses the latest DLP(r) chipsets in their products. Please confirm with them directly which chipset they deploy in which units. Here a link to their latest DLP LED HDTV offering:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=televisions&ty
pe=televisions&subtype=dlptv&model_cd=HL61A750A1FXZA"

So can anybody tell me. Is DLP(r) the same as DC4?

For the forum police: Yes I posted this in another thread, but I feel more experts have been visiting this thread and wanted their input. :)

The one thing I always saw as an advantage to the Mits of Samsung was they were using DC 4 in their models. So I emailed TI and asked them if Mits was the only ones using DC 4 in their TV. Here is the response.

"Thank you for contacting DLP(r) Products. Samsung uses the latest DLP(r) chipsets in their products. Please confirm with them directly which chipset they deploy in which units. Here a link to their latest DLP LED HDTV offering:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=televisions&ty
pe=televisions&subtype=dlptv&model_cd=HL61A750A1FXZA"

So can anybody tell me. Is DLP(r) the same as DC4?

For the forum police: Yes I posted this in another thread, but I feel more experts have been visiting this thread and wanted their input. :)

No...TI was non-responsive. (DLP is the name of the technology as a whole, from the earliest chipsets to the latest, etc...)

It was worth a try though...

First...the laservue needs to be an improvement compared to the bulb-based unit. Right now it isn't and the price is just silly.

The last thing we front projectionists wanted to read. :eek:

I would not expect a front projection version of a laser based set. Once you get behind the screen, the unit is essentially a class 4 laser product, and as such, very dangerous.

Samsung NEVER used Dark Chip 4--when they didn't that was the sign that they were exciting the buisness.

The LED sets were a half hearted effort--they could have done better with the concept--the fact that they didn't was also proof that they were exciting the buisness.

Well, the business has been prety exciting for Sammy lately--they're selling out like hotcakes.

Best TV value on the planet, hands down.

Samsung NEVER used Dark Chip 4--when they didn't that was the sign that they were exciting the buisness.

The LED sets were a half hearted effort--they could have done better with the concept--the fact that they didn't was also proof that they were exciting the buisness.

Didn't the latest Samsung 7 series adjust the LED itself rather than use an iris?

Samsung NEVER used Dark Chip 4--when they didn't that was the sign that they were exciting the buisness.

The LED sets were a half hearted effort--they could have done better with the concept--the fact that they didn't was also proof that they were exciting the buisness.

I don't consider that kind of reasoning "proof" of anything other than they wanted to buy as much market share as they could with lower prices. Samsung has been doing that since day one with DLP. Using cheaper bearings in the color wheels, using cheap light tunnel designs, etc, have given the technology a black eye in the mind of many. While Mitsubishi's capacitor problems in the V26 sets and their arrogance about calibration support did not help, at least the sets never had color wheel issues or light tunnels collapsing to the degree that the "better value" Samsungs have.

...they wanted to buy as much market share as they could with lower prices. Samsung has been doing that since day one with DLP. Using cheaper bearings in the color wheels, using cheap light tunnel designs, etc, have given the technology a black eye in the mind of many. ...

All of which demonstrates that there is technical scope for future premium quality rear-projection sets. Of course, technical scope does not automatically translate into production, but it raises the possibility.

My 4-year old 720p D-ILA is still so good that I've often wondered what JVC could have done if they had concentrated on high-quality basics (become the Camry of RPTVs). Good cooling and quality production techniques for long chip life, a larger more open lamp housing for longer lamp life, good access to the interior to make cleaning easy, stiffer chassis to avoid geometry errors, and strengthen the capacity available in the user menu. Forget about thin and light and million-to-one contrast ratios, just offer a good viewing experience for a long time. Then people might be willing to pay a profitable price.

Samsung NEVER used Dark Chip 4--when they didn't that was the sign that they were exciting the buisness.

The LED sets were a half hearted effort--they could have done better with the concept--the fact that they didn't was also proof that they were exciting the buisness.

Or a sign that Mitsubishi payed for exclusive use of the DC4 which is what was said when those sets were launched.
There is no question the Samsung LED sets are better than the lamp based ones. Just the fact that the color temp doesn't drift like a lamp based set will is reason enough to choose the LED over the lamp based version. My only complaint was the largest size was only 67"

Great info! Can't wait for some actual reviews... thanks.

All of which demonstrates that there is technical scope for future premium quality rear-projection sets. Of course, technical scope does not automatically translate into production, but it raises the possibility.

My 4-year old 720p D-ILA is still so good that I've often wondered what JVC could have done if they had concentrated on high-quality basics (become the Camry of RPTVs). Good cooling and quality production techniques for long chip life, a larger more open lamp housing for longer lamp life, good access to the interior to make cleaning easy, stiffer chassis to avoid geometry errors, and strengthen the capacity available in the user menu. Forget about thin and light and million-to-one contrast ratios, just offer a good viewing experience for a long time. Then people might be willing to pay a profitable price.

These are good points. Geometry is also related to depth--There's only so close you can get with a super wide angle lens and project with no distortion.

There's so much promise here--too bad the tech seems to be dying.

I love my Samsung LED based 67"er. Had it calibrated by an ISF pro and it is good for a long time. Too bad much of D* material has motion artifacts that blow the experience.

Be it backed by bulb or LED, Samsung put out some very nice televisions actually and has gotten me thoroughly addicted to large screen TV. Hope Mitsubishi or someone can still keep it going...

(And preferably without a huge increase in cost or energy usage...)

be it backed by bulb or led, samsung put out some very nice televisions actually and has gotten me thoroughly addicted to large screen tv. Hope mitsubishi or someone can still keep it going...

(and preferably without a huge increase in cost or energy usage...)

50/50

Any news on the next gen of the Laservue? I'm want to see either the 73 or the rumoured 85 set. Bigger is better :)

After much deliberation and being downsized by my former company, I had to purchase a different set than the Laservue I was hoping for. I ended up purchasing a Samsung LN52A850 LCD flat panel display.

John Stephens, keep up the good work! I have thoroughly enjoyed learning more about the set from you and Lcaillo.

I for one hope and pray that Mitsubishi continues to improve on this technology and by 2011, I will be in a better postion to have whatever size model they will produce by that time in my newly built home!:)

After much deliberation and being downsized by my former company, I had to purchase a different set than the Laservue I was hoping for. I ended up purchasing a Samsung LN52A850 LCD flat panel display.

John Stephens, keep up the good work! I have thoroughly enjoyed learning more about the set from you and Lcaillo.

I for one hope and pray that Mitsubishi continues to improve on this technology and by 2011, I will be in a better postion to have whatever size model they will produce by that time in my newly built home!:)


I have the 52A850 and love it:)

I have the 52A850 and love it:)

Samsung has to replace my inverter board on it though; I get sound but no Picture and the 30 day return window to BB has passed.

John Stephens; when I registered my Samsung they extended my warranty by 3 months giving me 15 instead of 12. Did Mitsubishi do something similar for LazerVue owners?

Here is a question-What is more irrelevant?? This Thread? or The Laservue?:D

Here is a question-What is more irrelevant?? This Thread? or The Laservue?:D

The thread is fun, the Laservue is an interesting piece of technology. The thread started long before much hard information was available on the TV, so has always wandered around. Fortunately there is now an owner's thread but that looks like it will be small at least until the next generation of higher-volume sets come out, if they do.

Well, after reading this thread from the start...it looks like it is finally dead, just like the LV set itself....IMO

This epic failure continues...

We had heard that certain Mitsubishi (http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/Mitsubishi/) representatives had been telling Diamond dealers that production had been suspended on the outfit's flagship LaserVue (http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/LaserVue/) HDTV, and sure enough, the story is true. We have confirmed with Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America that the outfit has "temporarily suspended production of LaserVue televisions due to a problem with manufacturing equipment used to produce LaserVue TVs." We're also informed that "Mitsubishi Electric engineers are taking the necessary action to ensure that the company resumes production as quickly as possible, while maintaining the highest standards for product quality and reliability." So far as we know, this isn't a sign of sudden discontinuation, as Mitsu has affirmed that it's "expecting production to resume in early 2009." We'll update with more as we get it in.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/11/mitsubishi-temporarily-suspends-production-of-laservue-hdtvs/

I have owned this LaserVue for over a month and it is fantastic-I ACTUALLY OWN ONE!!! If you don't like this thread or this model TV go somewhere else.
I created this thread because of the nay sayers and theorists on the other LaserVue thread. So go back there and bash it all you want . I haven't seen 1 problem that is a deal breaker on this set. So go search for that perfect technology and get back to me when you find it. I personally think (since I own one) that it's better then anything seen to this point!!

$7000 is street price I purchased in the $58XX

suspended! production, bye bye laser!

$7000 is street price I purchased in the $58XX

You got taken:rolleyes: Bye Bye LV:D

I have owned this LaserVue for over a month and it is fantastic-I ACTUALLY OWN ONE!!! If you don't like this thread or this model TV go somewhere else.
I created this thread because of the nay sayers and theorists on the other LaserVue thread. So go back there and bash it all you want . I haven't seen 1 problem that is a deal breaker on this set. So go search for that perfect technology and get back to me when you find it. I personally think (since I own one) that it's better then anything seen to this point!!
...you cannot be serious. It came with a $7,000 price tag and didn't even improve on the Mits blub-based DLP's. Epic failure....

...you cannot be serious. It came with a $7,000 price tag and didn't even improve on the Mits blub-based DLP's. Epic failure....
This strikes me as pretty rude. The guy is happy with his TV - let him enjoy it for crying out loud.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone who got suckered into paying more than twice as much for something that wasn't even better. Did they manage to see you folks a few Monster cables as well?

I honestly feel sorry for anyone who got suckered into paying more than twice as much for something that wasn't even better. Did they manage to see you folks a few Monster cables as well?


Ditto gsr's comment. People pay varying amounts for products that perform differently all the time. People are using uncalibrated displays that they paid lots of money for that look worse than less expensive displays that are properly calibrated. People pay a premium for aesthetics, furniture, or just to feel that they have the latest technology. Your priorities are meaningless to others in most cases and it is rude for you to assume that they have some relevance.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone who got suckered into paying more than twice as much for something that wasn't even better. Did they manage to see you folks a few Monster cables as well?
There's a tiny difference between LaserVue and Monster Cable. The LaserVue is a new technology that should come down in price relatively quickly, assuming Mitsubishi resolves their production problem and continue with the technology, just like the initial DLP's did. When I bought my previous Mits 65" CRT RPTV around 7 years ago, there was this new fangled DLP thing available from Mits for something like $15K IIRC. The price for those DLP sets dropped pretty quickly over the following years and I expect the same thing to happen with Laservue. Monster Cable is another thing altogether and no, I don't use their products.

Without at least a few early adopters for new technologies like LaserVue, those technologies would never make it to market and would never come down to more reasonable price levels. LaserVue at the current pricing isn't for you or me, but at least I'm not going to be rude and knock someone else's decision to buy one.

Ditto gsr's comment. People pay varying amounts for products that perform differently all the time. People are using uncalibrated displays that they paid lots of money for that look worse than less expensive displays that are properly calibrated. People pay a premium for aesthetics, furniture, or just to feel that they have the latest technology. Your priorities are meaningless to others in most cases and it is rude for you to assume that they have some relevance.
Regardless, that is my opinion. I'm just glad I didn't waste money on a product with a ridiculous price tag and only mediocre/average performance. I prefer to do proper research before making a purchase so I don't make these mistakes. Let this thread serve as a warning to those who do not.

LaserVue at the current pricing isn't for you or me, but at least I'm not going to be rude and knock someone else's decision to buy one.
I'm sorry if I have offended the very small group of people who have made this purchase...I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious apparently.

I'm sorry if I have offended the very small group of people who have made this purchase...I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious apparently.
Your opinion as such isn't the problem - it's your approach to presenting it...

Your opinion as such isn't the problem - it's your approach to presenting it...That is your opinion and of course you are welcome to it.

If I just would have known your opinion before I bought one. Now I just have to live with this TV. I love the TV and no one pays street price. You might not like it thats great but don't feel sorry for me you narrow minded goof.

I'm sorry if I have offended the very small group of people who have made this purchase...I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious apparently.

What seems obvious to you is not to everyone. The owners seem mostly very happy with their sets, in spite of only one being known to be calibrated, and the degree to which that was done is still a bit hazy, as UMR is unlikely to discuss the detail of what he did and what controls were adjusted to what effect. The jury is still out in terms of performance, IMO, but even with what we know a case can be made for the set. I might not buy it, nor would you, but then, I would not buy a Runco for twice as much either, and many people are very happy with them.

The jury is still out in terms of performance, IMO, but even with what we know a case can be made for the set.

I agree the jury is still out on this technology, but not on this set. As a value proposition it is a poor choice. It would take a very long time to recoup the first generation penalty simply because it uses less energy and has no bulb to replace. The contrast ratio and light output numbers UMR gave us indicate a very poor black level. I noticed this, and posted it here at AVS, the very first time I saw the set, the day it was released. The facts are you can obtain an equal or better image for far less money. The point isn't whether or not the set has a nice picture and would appeal to some people. It does on both counts. The point is the price is way out of proportion to its performance.

The only justification I can see for purchasing the current Lasevue is its unique color capability. It does things, particularly with red and gold, that are striking. I can see why someone might prioritize things differently than I, buying this set because they value a unique red and gold over a true black. That is the only case I can see.

Looks like Laservue isn't the only one halting production.
http://formatwarcentral.com/2009/02/17/pioneer-exits-tv-industry-rip-kuro-plasma/

Looks like Laservue isn't the only one halting production.
http://formatwarcentral.com/2009/02/17/pioneer-exits-tv-industry-rip-kuro-plasma/

Kuro over and out. Is Lemonvue next??

Kuro over and out. Is Lemonvue next??

Ancient history.

O thought the suspeded production was due to "problems" not to cancel the set. Is this just a lie?

O thought the suspeded production was due to "problems" not to cancel the set. Is this just a lie?
I guess it depends on whether you want to believe the conspiracy theorists or the reliable sources such as lcaillo. The reliable sources indicate that they're having a problem with some of their manufacturing equipment and expect to be back in production. The conspiracy theorists say it's all a lie and Laservue is dead. Time will tell who is correct :).

O thought the suspeded production was due to "problems" not to cancel the set. Is this just a lie?

The "official" version is production was halted due to technical reasons and, once corrected, production will resume. Since Mits will soon have the RPTV market all to themselves, now they have to balance the size verses price value proposition against flat panel competion. There is no way, no how, the market will accept a RPTV unless it provides a large picture for an economical price.

If they can make margin at say $3500 for a 73" set, I expect to see it come back. Especially, as a number of persons here have suggested, if the first version was a prototype and was priced very high to limit the field testing. There will be a market for a big screen, low priced RPTV for some time to come. I personally feel their bulb sets are as good or better, for half the price or less. If they can get their cost and the MSRP price down to their bulb set level, they'll have a reason to bring it back to the market. Otherwise, what real incentive do they have?

The "official" version is production was halted due to technical reasons and, once corrected, production will resume. Since Mits will soon have the RPTV market all to themselves, now they have to balance the size verses price value proposition against flat panel competion. There is no way, no how, the market will accept a RPTV unless it provides a large picture for an economical price.

If they can make margin at say $3500 for a 73" set, I expect to see it come back. Especially, as a number of persons here have suggested, if the first version was a prototype and was priced very high to limit the field testing. There will be a market for a big screen, low priced RPTV for some time to come. I personally feel their bulb sets are as good or better, for half the price or less. If they can get their cost and the MSRP price down to their bulb set level, they'll have a reason to bring it back to the market. Otherwise, what real incentive do they have?

Great post. MITS first has to get rid of their bulb sets, then as you write, get the price of a 73 down around 3.5K or thereabouts. AND still make a profit. I'm not so sure that is possible.

Great post. MITS first has to get rid of their bulb sets, then as you write, get the price of a 73 down around 3.5K or thereabouts. AND still make a profit. I'm not so sure that is possible.

I don't think that they have to get rid of the bulb sets. The price of them may have to go down a bit, but they could still be useful as an entry level product and position the LV as the upper end.

Bit like having a Diamond line.

Seggers

I don't think that they have to get rid of the bulb sets. The price of them may have to go down a bit, but they could still be useful as an entry level product and position the LV as the upper end.

Bit like having a Diamond line.

Seggers


I don't diasagree with you totally. But if you want to get the LV price down around 3.5K for a 73(and that is just an off the wall figure for the purpose of this discussion), then what is the price of a Diamond bulb based 73 going to be and one that still allows MITS to make a profit?

There are 70” flat panels (Sony and LG), but they cost a LOT more then $7k, so why should Mitsubishi sell a 73” for $3.5k?

There are 70” flat panels (Sony and LG), but they cost a LOT more then $7k, so why should Mitsubishi sell a 73” for $3.5k?

Because a box has to be a LOT cheaper than a panel. Once you see the laservue you'll see that, in its current form, it wouldn't sell well at $3500 either. Check out the review at Sound And Vision Magazine.

Because a box has to be a LOT cheaper than a panel. Once you see the laservue you'll see that, in its current form, it wouldn't sell well at $3500 either. Check out the review at Sound And Vision Magazine.

I can't imagine anyone paying anything close to 7K for LV. I'm no big fan of plasma, but if I was going to spend that much, I'd buy as Kuro any day of the week before LV. And remember, the 7K was for a 65. If they can't get the costs down to the 3-4K range, especially in this economy, LV can be renamed Lemonvue.

I can't imagine anyone paying anything close to 7K for LV. I'm no big fan of plasma, but if I was going to spend that much, I'd buy as Kuro any day of the week before LV. And remember, the 7K was for a 65. If they can't get the costs down to the 3-4K range, especially in this economy, LV can be renamed Lemonvue.
And how much does a 65" or larger Kuro cost again? ;)

And how much does a 65" or larger Kuro cost again? ;)
The difference is that the Kuro comes much closer to giving you a level of quality that equals the price tag. When you buy a Kuro you know you are getting something which is better than the previous model or the competition. When you pay $7,000 for a LaserVue...you know you're getting something that isn't any better than the much cheaper bulb-based units.

The LaserVue price tag is a joke. The LaserVue performance compared to a much cheaper bulb-based dispay is a joke.

If you want to be a sucker...go for it.

The difference is that the Kuro comes much closer to giving you a level of quality that equals the price tag. When you buy a Kuro you know you are getting something which is better than the previous model or the competition. When you pay $7,000 for a LaserVue...you know you're getting something that isn't any better than the much cheaper bulb-based units.

The LaserVue price tag is a joke. The LaserVue performance compared to a much cheaper bulb-based dispay is a joke.

If you want to be a sucker...go for it.
<I> have no interest in buying a LaserVue for $7K. I was just pointing out that it's not entirely fair to compare the cost of a 60" display with the cost of a 65" display and hoped the wink would hint that it was somewhat tongue in cheek. Many of you who are being so negative about the Laservue continue to miss the point that this initial model is NOT intended for mass production and the next generation should be expected to have a price that's more down to earth. Not to mention that it's downright rude to be telling people they're suckers for paying what they did on these sets - show them just a bit of respect.

<I> have no interest in buying a LaserVue for $7K. I was just pointing out that it's not entirely fair to compare the cost of a 60" display with the cost of a 65" display and hoped the wink would hint that it was somewhat tongue in cheek. Many of you who are being so negative about the Laservue continue to miss the point that this initial model is NOT intended for mass production and the next generation should be expected to have a price that's more down to earth. Not to mention that it's downright rude to be telling people they're suckers for paying what they did on these sets - show them just a bit of respect.

The next generation also needs to be better than the bulb-based units. Samsung charged more for their LED displays, but improvements were made as well.

Because a box has to be a LOT cheaper than a panel. Once you see the laservue you'll see that, in its current form, it wouldn't sell well at $3500 either. Check out the review at Sound And Vision Magazine.

It does, where is that written? If Laservue provided the best picture available at any price $7k would be cheap, problem is it doesn’t and that’s the real issue for me.
As it stands I would not buy a Laservue at $3.5 because the performance level is way too low, but if Mitsubishi could offer a 73” or larger display with a better picture then a Sony 70” SXRD together with absolute blacks I would pay $10k no problem. I seriously doubt any DLP based display will ever achieve that level of performance so I’m not holding my breath waiting.

Laservue seems more like a marketing exercise rather then a serious attempt at a high end product. If JVC put their top range LCoS front projector in an 70”- 80” RPTV that would really be something, no way it would be $7k though.