I guess CEDIA will be the big test. It would be a very bad sign if they don't have firm dates and pricing.

Agreed, see my earlier posts #1025 and 1064.

What day is CEDIA? Sorry, don't know much regarding dates of that kind of stuff.

What day is CEDIA? Sorry, don't know much regarding dates of that kind of stuff.

Cedia is September 3-7, 2008. That is my drop dead date also for Laservue info. If we don't get hard dates and pricing info there, I will be going for the samsung.

Cedia is September 3-7, 2008. That is my drop dead date also for Laservue info. If we don't get hard dates and pricing info there, I will be going for the samsung.



Seriously , they better drop some info on it on that show. If not than Mitsu has some issues with it. Doesnt mean that they wont come out but some people want a new TV and cant wait any longer!!!!!!!!!

Mitsu , give us our PLASMA killer!!!!!!!!

Anyone else find it ironic that Mitsubishi's official Laservue website is called believingisseeing.tv? I'll believe it when I see the tv. :)

I guess CEDIA will be the big test. It would be a very bad sign if they don't have firm dates and pricing.

When is Cedia ?

Um, perhaps September 3-7?

Is it faster to Google CEDIA 2008 or post an inquiry here as to when it is?

If it were a race, I think it'd be fastest to just scroll up a couple posts. But that's just me. ;)

If it were a race, I think it'd be fastest to just scroll up a couple posts. But that's just me. ;)

LoL

I have a relationship with one of Mitsubishi's oldest and most important dealers. They usually are one of the the first dealers to get new technology from Mits. Here is what I was told:

1. Their rep is very secretive about Laservue.
2. We probably won't see them until late fall.
3. Pricing has not been set.
4. Mits would like the sets displayed next to the Kuro's. The rep wanted a side by side in store display!
5. Initial allocations will be very limited, they may only see a handfull for a few months.

My contact expects pricing to be in the Kuro range, not at or near their lamp based sets.

In auditioning both the Sammy & Mits, the Mits viewing angle was superior & there was simply more "pop" with the Mits. There was a depth and 3D look and feel to the Mits picture that seemed missing in the Sammy. That said, neither was set up for optimum performance. BUT the Mits still has the better side to side viewing angle AND brighter overall picture. JMO

Classico
So is the 835 far superior to the next level down series for Mits?

It was this store. This link shows the price I found first. Then that same day I found him on Amazon for $2800. On Amazon, it was under a click to get the price ad.

notallowedtopost****walts.com/products/WD-73835.html

I can't find it on Amazon either. Try giving them a call. See if they'll bite at $2800. Or free shipping. It was like $250 for shipping.

The laservue will be out soon. Why else will mitsubishi drop the price on there new 73835 that just came out. This is just my opinion. The ones who could not wait will be just as happy with the choices they make as those who wait. I say they will be out before christmas. I'm see how the reveiws on it is. First generation makes me look at it real hard. I stoll have my mitsubishi 65 untill i up grade to a 73.

The Mits wins until the Sammy goes Darkchip 4.

Or, in a parallel universe, Sammy wins until Mits has a DLP without bulbs, color wheel, heat, noise, excess power consumption, distortion-causing wavy screen, and slow startup time. :cool:

I would take the display with the better blacks every time.

I would take the display with the better blacks every time.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Originally posted by egrady:
I have a relationship with one of Mitsubishi's oldest and most important dealers. They usually are one of the the first dealers to get new technology from Mits. Here is what I was told:

1. Their rep is very secretive about Laservue.
2. We probably won't see them until late fall.
3. Pricing has not been set.
4. Mits would like the sets displayed next to the Kuro's. The rep wanted a side by side in store display!
5. Initial allocations will be very limited, they may only see a handfull for a few months.

My contact expects pricing to be in the Kuro range, not at or near their lamp based sets.

So when is Bjorns getting them. I get back in the states late Sep; I was hoping they would be in by then.

I would take the display with the better blacks every time.
still enjoying your CRT TV then?

IMO the only CRTs I've ever owned lose too much shadow detail with their blacks. I've never owned a good one (which is prob why I say this), but they seem to lose too much detail for my liking.

There are alot of good fixed pixel displays on the market right now. But, with the exception of the 9G Kuro, their black levels still fall far short of a good CRT. If my HLS 6188 had a black level as good as my old Pioneer Elite 510, I wouldn't even be in the market. My Samsung does a number of things better than my 510, but the black level isn't one of them. Most of the other problems with fixed pixel displays have been fixed, within reason, but if you want a true black you have to deal with the cost, weight, limited size and high energy use of the Kuro.

I'm in the same camp as Owen, a true black is at the top of my priority list. I'm hoping the Laservue has a 9G Kuro black level with fewer of the drawbacks.

So when is Bjorns getting them. I get back in the states late Sep; I was hoping they would be in by then.

;)


I too, deduced that fact.

Keep in mind, however, that even Bjorn's is prone to mis-information. I talked to them last September regarding the 70" Sony's that were soon to be released. They're also a pretty important Sony dealer (hence, the Sony store within a store). I was told by the manager that the Sony reps had just been in the store and the TV would be out in October. Two weeks later Sony announced the cancellation of that TV and their decision to get out of the rear projection market.

I'm in the same camp as Owen, a true black is at the top of my priority list. I'm hoping the Laservue has a 9G Kuro black level with fewer of the drawbacks.
I am probably alone on this, but certainly blacks are important, but to me the biggest priority I have is to not see pixels.

All I see when I look at an LCD, plasma or DLP is pixels.

I dont want to see jaggy lines or squares anywhere, I dont want to see blotchy digitized noise in black backgrounds.

I think alot of those technologies are decent, but certainly cant beat my CRT. I would like to have an HDMI connection.

I am probably alone on this, but certainly blacks are important, but to me the biggest priority I have is to not see pixels.

All I see when I look at an LCD, plasma or DLP is pixels.

I dont want to see jaggy lines or squares anywhere, I dont want to see blotchy digitized noise in black backgrounds.

I think alot of those technologies are decent, but certainly cant beat my CRT. I would like to have an HDMI connection.

First, you are going to see pixels at say 12", but so what? If you can see pixels on a Pioneer Elite 151 at a reasonable viewing distance, say 8 feet, you have superhuman vision. Next, how many pixels does your CRT resolve? Does it have perfect convergence? Unless it is a Pioneer Elite CRT, does it have near perfect color points? Unless your CRT is a tube, if so the size isn't comparable, how much must you dim the lights to overcom it's poor light output? How often must you call an ISF tech to have the drift addressed?

In a big screen, the best I'd seen until recently was the 65" Mitsubishi with the 9" tubes. But the Pioneer Elite 151 Plasma is the king now. No CRT RPTV can touch it. It has the viewing angle of a CRT and a CRT black level that no other fixed pixel display can touch. Even Robert Jones in the Don't Throw Away Your CRT thread here at AVS had good things to say about it.

The opening of the last Disney Pirates movie, on BD, when viewed on the Elite 151 will make you rethink that CRT is still king, I guarantee it.

I'm hoping the Laservue has a 9G Kuro black level with fewer of the drawbacks.

Let's hope it doesn't have a price of $9G too!!:eek:

Are we talkign about this TV - PRO-151FD http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs%20Monitors/EliteTVs/ci.New+PRO-151FD.Kuro
?

If so, I've seen it online for just under $5300.

Are we talkign about this TV

I don't know who "we" is, but most of "us" here are talking about the Mits Laser TV (hence, the thread title).

I don't know who "we" is, but most of "us" here are talking about the Mits Laser TV (hence, the thread title).
I know that, I was just trying to get clarification on which plasma they were comparing the laservue to.

Are we talkign about this TV - PRO-151FD http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs%20Monitors/EliteTVs/ci.New+PRO-151FD.Kuro
?

If so, I've seen it online for just under $5300.

Im so fed up with Mits not giving us info about :aser vue im about to purchase the Elite 151. Damn Mits !!!!!!!!

If I'm not mistakin', are we not in the 3rd QTR??
Where are these sets??
Will these new laser sets solve off angle viewing weakness??

If we're to pay a premium, can we expect a great pic?!!!
VB

If I'm not mistakin', are we not in the 3rd QTR??
Where are these sets??
Will these new laser sets solve off angle viewing weakness??

If we're to pay a premium, can we expect a great pic?!!!
VB

Isn't the 3rd Quarter only half way over? The fourth quarter doesn't begin until October 1st.

Let's hope it doesn't have a price of $9G too!!:eek:

Could you tell me one person who spent $9K on a Kuro? :rolleyes:

Let's assume the Kuro everyone is talking about is the Pro-151FD that I listed above. If it is the perfect TV everyone talks about, why not just get it instead of a LaserVUE? Isn't the LaserVUE only gonna give you two advantages - more screen & less power consumption?

Could you tell me one person who spent $9K on a Kuro? :rolleyes:

I don't think he was saying that Kuro's cost 9 grand. He was saying that the 9G kuro costs major $.

So will these.
Unfortunately, we have to pay premiums for the best.

Let's assume the Kuro everyone is talking about is the Pro-151FD that I listed above. If it is the perfect TV everyone talks about, why not just get it instead of a LaserVUE? Isn't the LaserVUE only gonna give you two advantages - more screen & less power consumption?

Geeeeeeee, I hope, that's not the only advantage!!!!!

According to the reported specs, laservue will solve the diminished off angle brightness and be better at reproducing color and brightness!!

What say you??!!!!

Is this technology going to warrant the price it will command???

Let's assume the Kuro everyone is talking about is the Pro-151FD that I listed above. If it is the perfect TV everyone talks about, why not just get it instead of a LaserVUE? Isn't the LaserVUE only gonna give you two advantages - more screen & less power consumption?

it's perfect if you have the $$$ and are happy maxing out at 60".

anyway, you know how it is -- the blacks are always blacker on the other side :) and supposedly laservue has "eye popping colors"

About these colors, I've read lots about this and how the LaserVUEs will have 90% more color or something. Well, the Sammy LED's claimed 40% more color. But I read somewhere that the movies and programs are not yet taking advantage of this color space so you really won't see the 40% more until they do. Is this the same story with the LaserVUE?

Let's assume the Kuro everyone is talking about is the Pro-151FD that I listed above. If it is the perfect TV everyone talks about, why not just get it instead of a LaserVUE? Isn't the LaserVUE only gonna give you two advantages - more screen & less power consumption?

Less weight and no real need to wonder how on earth you're going to get a 200lb monster onto thin sheets of drywall and keep it there.

Plus I already have a 60. I want more.....

Seggers

200lbs??
Many 60" plasmas aren't even 150lbs. Many ~110/120lbs.
LCD's less typically.

200lbs??
Many 60" plasmas aren't even 150lbs. Many ~110/120lbs.
LCD's less typically.

200lbs was a real guess. Doesn't seem that I was far out.

My current Sony is about 110 and the 73835 that is ever nearer my grubby mits is about 98.

Seggers

Here you go:

Panel Weight 112 lbs. 4 oz.
Panel Weight (w/detachable side speakers & stand) 135 lbs. 1 oz.

Could you tell me one person who spent $9K on a Kuro? :rolleyes:

Could you tell me where I said anyone did?

It was a play on words...I was just hoping the price of the Laservue isn't 9 Grand--Which according to some it will be.

(Sigh...) Do I have to explain everything...? :D

...supposedly laservue has "eye popping colors"

Wouldn't that hurt? :eek:

Wouldn't that hurt? :eek:

not if you are wearing your 3-D glasses ;)

not if you are wearing your 3-d glasses ;)

:d

About these colors, I've read lots about this and how the LaserVUEs will have 90% more color or something. Well, the Sammy LED's claimed 40% more color. But I read somewhere that the movies and programs are not yet taking advantage of this color space so you really won't see the 40% more until they do. Is this the same story with the LaserVUE?


So the Mitsubishi will be twice as inaccurate as the Samsung, that’s great.
You want 0% more color if you want an accurate picture, HD video is all encoded to the BT.709 standard which defines the required display primary colors. Exaggerated colors are not good.

About these colors, I've read lots about this and how the LaserVUEs will have 90% more color or something. Well, the Sammy LED's claimed 40% more color. But I read somewhere that the movies and programs are not yet taking advantage of this color space so you really won't see the 40% more until they do. Is this the same story with the LaserVUE?

Correct.

So the Mitsubishi will be twice as inaccurate as the Samsung, that’s great.
You want 0% more color if you want an accurate picture, HD video is all encoded to the BT.709 standard which defines the required display primary colors. Exaggerated colors are not good.

You might want to rethink about that statement. Nothing was said about exaggerated colors and there is a lot of area outside the x/y coordinates of red, green and blue on REC 709.

still enjoying your CRT TV then?

Owen has a SXRD which is highly customized and is somewhat legendary for its blacks.

You might want to search a little before making statements like that.

The laservue will be out soon. Why else will mitsubishi drop the price on there new 73835 that just came out. This is just my opinion.

Try looking at the economy, consumer sales and consumer confidence.

Another reason might be because word is getting out about the problems with the Mitsubishi current color management system.

Mitsubishi needs a home run with LaserVue as the image from the days of 9" RPTV CRTs have long faded and the Mitsubishis of today do not resemble Mitsubishis of 4 or so years ago.

Correct.
You might want to rethink about that statement. Nothing was said about exaggerated colors and there is a lot of area outside the x/y coordinates of red, green and blue on REC 709.

Since current DLP’s can already cover the entire HD color gamut, there is a suggestion that the Mitsubishi has out of spec (exaggerated) primary colors, unless they can be constrained to meet the 709 standard there is a problem is there not?

Owen has a SXRD which is highly customized and is somewhat legendary for its blacks.


Yes I have modified my SXRD so that it delivers blacks 70% lower then standard, that puts it well below G8 Kuro black level. However that’s not even close to black enough for me, I miss the blacks of my CRT RPTV for dark scenes.

Yes I have modified my SXRD so that it delivers blacks 70% lower then standard, that puts it well below G8 Kuro black level. However that’s not even close to black enough for me, I miss the blacks of my CRT RPTV for dark scenes.

Then you would love the blacks on my 38" Loewe Aconda! Nothing to date can come even close to my Loewe.

A still have a 36” HD CRT, it has good blacks, but not as good as my Hitachi HD CRT RPTV which was totally black in a pitch dark room if I did not mind giving up a little shadow detail. However the picture on the modified 70” SRXD leaves them both for dead in every way except black level. All sets where full calibrated and tweaked well beyond ISF standards.

Yes I have modified my SXRD so that it delivers blacks 70% lower then standard, that puts it well below G8 Kuro black level. However that’s not even close to black enough for me, I miss the blacks of my CRT RPTV for dark scenes.

What is the measureed level post-modification?

Since current DLP’s can already cover the entire HD color gamut, there is a suggestion that the Mitsubishi has out of spec (exaggerated) primary colors, unless they can be constrained to meet the 709 standard there is a problem is there not?


I do not know of any TV that covers the entire spectrum - obviously gamut and spectrum are two different things. The basic principal that one hopes is that a TV can produce the coordinates for red, blue and green where they are supposed to fall.

However, IF a TV can do that (produce a green a x.300 y.600 for example) - and ALSO produce an accurate green at lets say outside of that (let's just say x.300 y.650 as a number thrown out), yes you have increased the color possibilities bringing it closer to reality of the real world.

As noted however, no one has yet to take advantage of this additional color space at this point - so for most practical purposes at this point, it essentially is a useless and a marketing ploy - though that does not automatically mean that it is inaccurate.

This just hit me hours later - its an easy way to think about it.

Humans can hear at best around 20Hz - 20,000 Hz.

Let's say you have an audio system that can go to 30,000Hz. The audio system had 50% more frequency response than 20Hz-20,000Hz.

That does not make the audio system incorrect as long as it is reproducing 20-20k correctly.

Now while humans cannot hear 25k Hz, obviously they can see past the RGB triangle of the REC 709 specs. Thus, if a TV could produce the REC 709 colors accurately at their x,y position and also give you colors outside that (which no source really does at this point), it would allow you more colorspace and that does not mean it is inaccurate.

Again, by the time we see something that can take advantage of this, the 2008 LaserVue, assuming there really is one, will probably not work any longer given most sets have a 5-7 year lifespan these days.

This just hit me hours later - its an easy way to think about it.

Humans can hear at best around 20Hz - 20,000 Hz.

Let's say you have an audio system that can go to 30,000Hz. The audio system had 50% more frequency response than 20Hz-20,000Hz.

That does not make the audio system incorrect as long as it is reproducing 20-20k correctly.

Now while humans cannot hear 25k Hz, obviously they can see past the RGB triangle of the REC 709 specs. Thus, if a TV could produce the REC 709 colors accurately at their x,y position and also give you colors outside that (which no source really does at this point), it would allow you more colorspace and that does not mean it is inaccurate.

Again, by the time we see something that can take advantage of this, the 2008 LaserVue, assuming there really is one, will probably not work any longer given most sets have a 5-7 year lifespan these days.


Is this what this tread has come too ! Boring tech talk and no infor from Mits !!!!!!!!!!!

Is this what this tread has come too ! Boring tech talk and no infor from Mits !!!!!!!!!!!

You might want to look at your browser - in the upper left hand corner of the page....what does that say...AV .....what does that S stand for right before Forum?

But then again, I suppose you would rather fall for the marketing hype:rolleyes:

Is this what this tread has come too ! Boring tech talk and no infor from Mits !!!!!!!!!!!

In 44 pages I don’t remember reading any useful info about the Mitsubishi, its all conjecture.

This just hit me hours later - its an easy way to think about it.

Humans can hear at best around 20Hz - 20,000 Hz.

Let's say you have an audio system that can go to 30,000Hz. The audio system had 50% more frequency response than 20Hz-20,000Hz.

That does not make the audio system incorrect as long as it is reproducing 20-20k correctly.

Now while humans cannot hear 25k Hz, obviously they can see past the RGB triangle of the REC 709 specs. Thus, if a TV could produce the REC 709 colors accurately at their x,y position and also give you colors outside that (which no source really does at this point), it would allow you more colorspace and that does not mean it is inaccurate.

Again, by the time we see something that can take advantage of this, the 2008 LaserVue, assuming there really is one, will probably not work any longer given most sets have a 5-7 year lifespan these days.

We will have to wait and see if the mythical Mitsubishi can be constrained to provide an accurate 709 standard color space, my guess is that it can’t.

What is the measureed level post-modification?


I have no way off accurately measuring very low black levels, so no point in attempting to do so. However it’s easy to extrapolate black level with a high degree of accuracy as follows.

A standard 70” SXRD has been measured by Ultimate AV Mag (and others) to have a black level of 0.007fL and a peak output of 91fL with a new lamp at full power with dynamic iris enabled and Contrast set to Max.

With a fixed iris setting, lamp power and iris size combined with the native contrast ratio of the SXRD chips determine peak output and black level. Adjusting lamp power or iris affects both peak output and black level proportionally.

First we use Power Saving mode for the lamp which lowers output 15% or more. Black level goes down to 0.0059fL.

Next adjust the minimum aperture of the iris in the service menu so that it can close down further and reduce light throughput by 30% for dark scenes (can be easily measures as a percentage change at 20-30 IRE). Black level goes down to 0.0041.

Next install an ND2 neutral density filter to the projection lens which reduces light throughput by 50%. Black level goes down proportionally to 0.0020fL.

All projection lamps loose output significantly over there service life, the one in my set has 2000 hours up so output will have dropped significantly from new. My measurements show a loss of 25%. Black level should now be down to around 0.0015fL. Still no where near black enough for a dark room.

Even with a new lamp and no adjustment to the iris system we should still get 0.0029fL

This is how I estimate black level of the SXRD, its all very simple and should be quite accurate as no black level measurements are required, they are directly inferred from known and easily measured losses in the light throughput.

I have no way off accurately measuring very low black levels, so no point in attempting to do so. However it’s easy to extrapolate black level with a high degree of accuracy as follows.

A standard 70” SXRD has been measured by Ultimate AV Mag (and others) to have a black level of 0.007fL and a peak output of 91fL with a new lamp at full power with dynamic iris enabled and Contrast set to Max.


You happen to remember what device they use to measure a 0.007 fL?

No, but I expect it’s the same one they use to measure everything else.
0.007 - 0.009 seem to be the norm for all SXRD tests, with the larger models having the better blacks due to lower output per square inch.

...Next adjust the minimum aperture of the iris in the service menu so that it can close down further and reduce light throughput by 30% for dark scenes (can be easily measures as a percentage change at 20-30 IRE). Black level goes down to 0.0041...

I have a 60XBR1 as a second TV and am wondering what SM settings you did to achieve this. If you don't mind PM'ing me this info I wouldn't mind giving it a try.

Owen has a SXRD which is highly customized and is somewhat legendary for its blacks.

You might want to search a little before making statements like that.
thanks for the suggestion I will do more research.
......DING! Research completed.
CRT still has best black levels.

So is the 835 far superior to the next level down series for Mits?

I have seen BOTH the 835 73" and 735 73". But not side by side. The 835 SHOULD have superior contrast because of the DarkChip4. But not seeing them together makes it tough. BOTH look really good. BUT, the 835 looked super. CC (735) is hooked up in a series. BB (835) is in a demo room where I can bring my own material. This week I intend to do just that & will report back. The new BD "Dark City" should tell something about black levels.

Classico

The 835 SHOULD have superior contrast because of the DarkChip4.

FWIW, they should both have the DC4. But the 835 should still have superior full black to full white contrast ratios, because it has an iris. But that's not going to help scenes that have black/white at the same time.

thanks for the suggestion I will do more research.
......DING! Research completed.
CRT still has best black levels.

Really? How much better than .001fL? Check out the review of the Pioneer Elite 111 at ultimateavmag.com. I don't care about CRT or SXRD, I want the Laservue to be as good as the 9G Pioneer.

Really? How much better than .001fL? Check out the review of the Pioneer Elite 111 at ultimateavmag.com. I don't care about CRT or SXRD, I want the Laservue to be as good as the 9G Pioneer.

im hoping for the same thing , better everything than a pioneer plasma at 73 inches.

im hoping for the same thing , better everything than a pioneer plasma at 73 inches.

That would be sweet--but what would it cost?

thanks for the suggestion I will do more research.
......DING! Research completed.
CRT still has best black levels.

CRT does have the best blacks, but has its own compromises like shadow detail for one.

Really? How much better than .001fL? Check out the review of the Pioneer Elite 111 at ultimateavmag.com. I don't care about CRT or SXRD, I want the Laservue to be as good as the 9G Pioneer.

It would need to be better as far as I am concerned.
If Pioneer can come up with an 80” 10G I’ll be interested, assuming something better does not come along.

I'm really hoping for the 73", I don't mind waiting, I would just like some details as far as pricing and specs.

CRT does have the best blacks, but has its own compromises like shadow detail for one.

I don't think that is true in rear projection televisions anymore. I have a very good Toshiba rear projection TV that was rated the best TV of 2003, and the blacks on the latest 73" bulb Mitsubishi DLP looks darker. Many plasma brands have even deeper blacks; too deep in my opinion. Some of them look unnatural because they have pumped up the contrast so dramatically that it looks unreal.

IB

No, but I expect it’s the same one they use to measure everything else.

Which is...... ?

I don't think that is true in rear projection televisions anymore. I have a very good Toshiba rear projection TV that was rated the best TV of 2003, and the blacks on the latest 73" bulb Mitsubishi DLP looks darker. Many plasma brands have even deeper blacks; too deep in my opinion. Some of them look unnatural because they have pumped up the contrast so dramatically that it looks unreal.

IB

That means nothing unless Mitsubishi fixes their Color Management System from what it is now.

I don't think that is true in rear projection televisions anymore. I have a very good Toshiba rear projection TV that was rated the best TV of 2003, and the blacks on the latest 73" bulb Mitsubishi DLP looks darker. Many plasma brands have even deeper blacks; too deep in my opinion. Some of them look unnatural because they have pumped up the contrast so dramatically that it looks unreal.

IB

CRT’s can be set up for ZERO light output (0.00000000fL) on a black screen, you just cannot get any darker then that, the challenge is maintaining decent shadow detail at the same time. A black screen on my 57” Hitachi looked completely black in a totally dark room; no current digital display comes even close.

Which is...... ?

You tell me and we will both know :D, probably a Photo Research or Sencore
I think it has been mentioned in some of the reviews, buy can’t remember which one.

Did you ever get around to putting an ND2 filter in your SXRD?

I have a 60XBR1 as a second TV and am wondering what SM settings you did to achieve this. If you don't mind PM'ing me this info I wouldn't mind giving it a try.

Just did a search and found my XBR2 settings are IRISMIN 0, IRISMAX 500, I-GAIN 100. I don’t know if the settings on an XBR1 are the same.
You need to adjust IRISMAX and I-GAIN as well or you will get erratic iris operation.
The iris settings on their own do not make a very noticeable difference, but in combination with a neutral density filter the results are quite impressive.
I did all my SXRD mods over a year ago, and posted about it in this forum.

CRT’s can be set up for ZERO light output (0.00000000fL) on a black screen, you just cannot get any darker then that, the challenge is maintaining decent shadow detail at the same time. A black screen on my 57” Hitachi looked completely black in a totally dark room; no current digital display comes even close.

My Philips RPTV has very good blacks when the screen is completely dark, it's whenever anything else on the screen is when it shows its weakness. Blooming is a horrible problem, it could be a complete dark screen and one white or other color on the screen and it turns everything else nearly grey.

It would need to be better as far as I am concerned.
If Pioneer can come up with an 80” 10G I’ll be interested, assuming something better does not come along.

how much power would THAT suck up?

seems like we've been stuck at ~60" for a while, so I doubt we'll see that huge a leap in one generation.

All this talk about absolute black level on a CRT RPTV is moot point. While they may be capable of absolute black, or nearly so, in practical terms it's of no value. By the time you turn up the brightness to a reasonable level, for good shadow detail for instance, you no longer have absolute black. This is where the tube sets, like the Sony 34XBR960, reigned supreme. You got both, a true black and great shadow detail. So, black level must not be looked at in a vacuum, it must be considered at an acceptable level of brightness.

Until the 9G Kuro, fixed pixel displays weren't even on the playing field when it came to black level and shadow detail combined. The Elite 151 is the first set I've seen that strikes this balance close to the quality of the 34XBR960 in a larger screen. If Mits can duplicate this feat with the Lazervue it will really be something.

You tell me and we will both know :D, probably a Photo Research or Sencore
I think it has been mentioned in some of the reviews, buy can’t remember which one.



I don't think a Sencore can measure that low and except for the newest PR units which has accuracy to .002 (in their specs), I am not sure they can go that low either which is why I wondered. I have a unit that has been verified to .003 (not specs, the actual unit) which is why I was curious.


Did you ever get around to putting an ND2 filter in your SXRD?

No. B+H Photo in NY took my money and stated at 10 week delivery time. 9 weeks later they claimed it was not available.

Turns out B+H does not use the American Distributor but gets grey market goods and their supplier in Europe could order it - so 2 1/2 months of waiting for nothing.

I can buy from legit American Supplier but then again, 3 month wait...have not gotten around to it yet. Dealing with a bad OB right now.

My Philips RPTV has very good blacks when the screen is completely dark, it's whenever anything else on the screen is when it shows its weakness. Blooming is a horrible problem, it could be a complete dark screen and one white or other color on the screen and it turns everything else nearly grey.

Dirty optics and internal reflections will destroy ANSI contrast.
You need clean high quality optics and a blacked out cabinet.

how much power would THAT suck up?

seems like we've been stuck at ~60" for a while, so I doubt we'll see that huge a leap in one generation.

I don’t think too many potential owners are going to be concerned about power consumption.;)

80” to 150” Plasma’s have been available for years so it’s not a big deal.
There is talk Panasonic will have an 80” (at a reasonable price) in 2009-2010, if that’s true Pioneer would have access to an 80” panel.
The demand for a 70” plus panel is definitely there and with prices so low for 60” models there is definitely room for an up market model.

All this talk about absolute black level on a CRT RPTV is moot point. While they may be capable of absolute black, or nearly so, in practical terms it's of no value. By the time you turn up the brightness to a reasonable level, for good shadow detail for instance, you no longer have absolute black. This is where the tube sets, like the Sony 34XBR960, reigned supreme. You got both, a true black and great shadow detail. So, black level must not be looked at in a vacuum, it must be considered at an acceptable level of brightness.

Until the 9G Kuro, fixed pixel displays weren't even on the playing field when it came to black level and shadow detail combined. The Elite 151 is the first set I've seen that strikes this balance close to the quality of the 34XBR960 in a larger screen. If Mits can duplicate this feat with the Lazervue it will really be something.


I think that depends very much on which CRT RPTV you are comparing, what has been done to the optical path, cabinet and how gamma has been addressed (probably via an external video processor or HTPC).
I certainly have never seen a direct view CRT that can match the combination of black level and shadow detail available from a good CRT RPTV setup.

I think that depends very much on which CRT RPTV you are comparing, what has been done to the optical path, cabinet and how gamma has been addressed (probably via an external video processor or HTPC).
I certainly have never seen a direct view CRT that can match the combination of black level and shadow detail available from a good CRT RPTV setup.

Then you need to see an ISF calibrated Sony 34XBR960.

Hmmm...still waiting....waiting...oh Mitsubishi LaserVue....where are you?

Here is a video I just found on youtube, it was taken in July.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKKFMfNg5o

It said the viewing angle is over 160 degrees...whether or not that is with no degradation in brightness I don't know. He said the 65inch would weigh roughly 160 pounds and would be competitively priced with flat panels at the time of release in the 3rd Quarter. When asked about the life of the lasers he said there is no decay in lasers over time, so hopefully they last a long time. Might be old news to some, but the first time I've seen it.

Here is a video I just found on youtube, it was taken in July.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKKFMfNg5o

It said the viewing angle is over 160 degrees...whether or not that is with no degradation in brightness I don't know. He said the 65inch would weigh roughly 160 pounds and would be competitively priced with flat panels at the time of release in the 3rd Quarter. When asked about the life of the lasers he said there is no decay in lasers over time, so hopefully they last a long time. Might be old news to some, but the first time I've seen it.

If it comes in around 60" kuro NON ELITE prices and blows reviewers socks off I will consider it.

It it does the dishes and blow dries my bald head, I'm all over it. :rolleyes:

Wouldn’t it be all over you? :D

Here is a video I just found on youtube, it was taken in July.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKKFMfNg5o

It said the viewing angle is over 160 degrees...whether or not that is with no degradation in brightness I don't know. He said the 65inch would weigh roughly 160 pounds and would be competitively priced with flat panels at the time of release in the 3rd Quarter. When asked about the life of the lasers he said there is no decay in lasers over time, so hopefully they last a long time. Might be old news to some, but the first time I've seen it.

Like the comment says, get on with it already......

Want one, want one, want one.

Seggers

Here is a video I just found on youtube, it was taken in July.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKKFMfNg5o

It said the viewing angle is over 160 degrees...whether or not that is with no degradation in brightness I don't know. He said the 65inch would weigh roughly 160 pounds and would be competitively priced with flat panels at the time of release in the 3rd Quarter. When asked about the life of the lasers he said there is no decay in lasers over time, so hopefully they last a long time. Might be old news to some, but the first time I've seen it.

some worrying signs: the guy was very careful not to say what the expected lifespan was, only that the laser will retain full brightness over its life, no uneven aging, etc. and pricing would be "competitive", which sounds to me like "the same, but don't expect cheaper."

160lbs is heavy compared to current bulb DLPs isn't it, esp considering it's much thinner? I guess they have to weigh down the base to keep it from toppling over.

one good thing is now we know that as late as July, laservue was still on.

Yep, at least as of July they were still on. I found one other video on youtube from someone else at the same conference, basically the same stuff, just with a different rep from mits. They all say stuff about colors even to the point where the 2nd video said they were over saturated (dunno if thats a bad thing or just trying to get a point across). I haven't really heard much about the black levels though, has anyone? 160 pounds for the 65" seems kind of heavy to me, but I guess my 60" RPTV weighs roughly the same, but it has wheels at least lol. Should put the 73" around 200 flat I'm guessing.

160lbs is heavy compared to current bulb DLPs isn't it, esp considering it's much thinner? I guess they have to weigh down the base to keep it from toppling over.

It's probably because the lasers require a flux capacitor. They are kinda heavy.

If they're targeting flat panel prices they'd better have something big up their sleeve since it's not a flat panel. Most people aren't going to buy a big, bulky, heavy RP TV for the same price as a thin flat panel regardless of how it looks.

They've been hyping these to be comparable to plasma, and pricing them accordingly. It will be interesting to see how these are received if they don't live up to the hype. There's a lot more to flat panels than just the flatness... how are they going to offer perfect geometry and zero overscan on such a thin rear projection set? is it really going to provide similar viewing angles without giving up sharpness and causing light reflections? I don't doubt that these can be a superior RP set. I'm still very skeptical that they can compete directly with plasma.

If they're targeting flat panel prices they'd better have something big up their sleeve since it's not a flat panel. Most people aren't going to buy a big, bulky, heavy RP TV for the same price as a thin flat panel regardless of how it looks.

I beg to differ. PQ is what matters MOST to me. And, I am pretty sure a lot feel the same way.

I beg to differ. PQ is what matters MOST to me. And, I am pretty sure a lot feel the same way.I agree with you, but we are the vast minority compared to the general public. :(

I agree with you, but we are the vast minority compared to the general public. :(


Completely agree.

The majority of HD set owners don't even take them off of default settings.

I beg to differ. PQ is what matters MOST to me. And, I am pretty sure a lot feel the same way.

But even if they are able to offer comparable PQ to a good plasma (yet to be seen), and they are in the same price range as a good plasma... all things being equal, don't you think most consumers would go with the product that offers more placement options? Mits keeps saying their pricing is going to be comparable to flat panels, but I'm still not sure what that means. 65" and 73" flat panels? It's moot... I gave up and bought something else. But I'm still curious.

I beg to differ. PQ is what matters MOST to me. And, I am pretty sure a lot feel the same way.

CAN the laservue compete on PQ?

It almost certainly won't have the uniformity or perfect geometry of a plasma. That would almost defy physics. No DLP RPTV can currently match the black levels of a 9G Kuro. Can 1G laser make up the difference? I kinda doubt it. Then there's the question of rainbows. Even without a color wheel, some people still see RBE on LED DLPs.

The laservue IMHO pretty much has to compete on size and pricing. Personally, I consider size as part of PQ itself, but many people seem more than content with 60".

On the positive side, I assume Mits ain't crazy and know what they have and what the competition has and will act accordingly. My only fear is they'll decide the laservue doesn't make sense for them economically and will delay or quietly drop it, like Sony did with SXRD.

some worrying signs: the guy was very careful not to say what the expected lifespan was, only that the laser will retain full brightness over its life, no uneven aging, etc. and pricing would be "competitive", which sounds to me like "the same, but don't expect cheaper."

160lbs is heavy compared to current bulb DLPs isn't it, esp considering it's much thinner? I guess they have to weigh down the base to keep it from toppling over.

one good thing is now we know that as late as July, laservue was still on.

I viewing the YouTube video I learned that Mits had to overcome a technical issue (brightness/color depth/saturation)with the blue & green lasers. They have solved it with "proprietary intellectual property" technology. How well they've solved it remains to be seen. It is VERY clear from the video that Mits plans to release at the HIGH end of the "competitive" products.

That being the case (and who blames them) I am having 1st generation jitters over this product--especially coming out at a premium price. For me it might preferable to get the Mits 835 at a lower price which still gives a knockout picture and 1)wait for the kinks to be worked out of the laser & 2)get a lower price with improved performance.

Also the Mits man DID mention prices. He talked about how 65" "flat panels" have come down from $15K to $7K--and how the LaserVue will be priced "competitively" with THOSE products (65" flat panels) when the LaserVue is released 3rd qtr. Has ANYONE seen a 65" flat panel from ANY manufacturer for LESS than $7k? I haven't.

I will wait for the LaserVue, but probably only because I am hoping its introduction will lower the price of their 835 AND I am unwilling to pay the premium price that this 1st generation technology will most likely command. Early adopters, I salute you for your grit, determination, courage and DOLLARS.

Classico

Originally posted by Classico:
Also the Mits man DID mention prices. He talked about how 65" "flat panels" have come down from $15K to $7K--and how the LaserVue will be priced "competitively" with THOSE products (65" flat panels) when the LaserVue is released 3rd qtr. Has ANYONE seen a 65" flat panel from ANY manufacturer for LESS than $7k? I haven't.

I will wait for the LaserVue, but probably only because I am hoping its introduction will lower the price of their 835 AND I am unwilling to pay the premium price that this 1st generation technology will most likely command. Early adopters, I salute you for your grit, determination, courage and DOLLARS.

This, Sharp AQUOS LC-65SE94U 65" LCD TV, can be had for about $5K online.

I am thinking the same thing you are. I don't want to pay the introductory premium for a possible beta product. They need to hit the ball out of the park with price/performance at CEDIA. Otherwise I will probably pick up the 73835. I just don't know about all the bugs I hear about with it. I also wish I knew what Samsungs plans were. I would like to see a 72" LED with DC4 and what price it's going to run.

Showing my relative ignorance, these are a TI DLP with lasers for a light source right? Is there anything inherent to the laser tech that will eliminate rainbows?

This, Sharp AQUOS LC-65SE94U 65" LCD TV, can be had for about $5K online.

I am thinking the same thing you are. I don't want to pay the introductory premium for a possible beta product. They need to hit the ball out of the park with price/performance at CEDIA. Otherwise I will probably pick up the 73835. I just don't know about all the bugs I hear about with it. I also wish I knew what Samsungs plans were. I would like to see a 72" LED with DC4 and what price it's going to run.

I haven't seen the Sharp 65", so I can't comment on where it is relative to performance with other flat panels. All I know is that 65" flat panels are rarely if ever shown at BB & I've NEVER seen one at CC. Nevertheless, the Mits product manager DIDN'T mention a $5k price point only that flat panels have come down to $7K. I guess if they come out as "LOW" as $5K we should all celebrate.

The reason the Sammy LEDs have such a poor off axis viewing angle is because they MUST use a screen that amplifies the comparatively "poor" light output from their LEDs. And you've got to be pretty much in a direct line, or else you get dramatic fall off in picture brightness. For me that is a deal breaker.

What "bugs" are you hearing about with the 835?

Classico

Showing my relative ignorance, these are a TI DLP with lasers for a light source right? Is there anything inherent to the laser tech that will eliminate rainbows?

The reason that laser SHOULD NOT have any rainbow effect is because that technology eliminates the spinning COLOR wheel that is required with a "white light" source. That color wheel is the cause of the "rainbow" effect. However, there was at least ONE strange person that claimed to still see the rainbow effect on a Mits laser. Someone with REALLY FAST eyes I imagine.

Classico

The reason that laser SHOULD NOT have any rainbow effect is because that technology eliminates the spinning COLOR wheel that is required with a "white light" source. That color wheel is the cause of the "rainbow" effect. However, there was at least ONE strange person that claimed to still see the rainbow effect on a Mits laser. Someone with REALLY FAST eyes I imagine.The LED sets still have 'em with no color wheel (though not as bad), so why would these be different?

Originally posted by Classico:
I haven't seen the Sharp 65", so I can't comment on where it is relative to performance with other flat panels. All I know is that 65" flat panels are rarely if ever shown at BB & I've NEVER seen one at CC. Nevertheless, the Mits product manager DIDN'T mention a $5k price point only that flat panels have come down to $7K. I guess if they come out as "LOW" as $5K we should all celebrate.

The reason the Sammy LEDs have such a poor off axis viewing angle is because they MUST use a screen that amplifies the comparatively "poor" light output from their LEDs. And you've got to be pretty much in a direct line, or else you get dramatic fall off in picture brightness. For me that is a deal breaker.

What "bugs" are you hearing about with the 835?

The retail price of the Sharp may be close to $7K. I have seen the TV, it's very nice. The Sharp Aquos series.

I don't know about bugs for sure, I have been researching and reading so much stuff, I may be getting confused. :)

The reason the Sammy LEDs have such a poor off axis viewing angle is because they MUST use a screen that amplifies the comparatively "poor" light output from their LEDs. And you've got to be pretty much in a direct line, or else you get dramatic fall off in picture brightness. For me that is a deal breaker.... Classico

I guess one man's "direct line" is another man's 45 degree angle...:cool:

The LED sets still have 'em with no color wheel (though not as bad), so why would these be different?

I have heard that some people CAN see rainbows with LEDs also. DLP sets ALL require the COLOR source to be in sync with those "tiny" mirrors. Unlike a plasma or LCD which has ALL colors in a location at each pixel, the DLP must color each "pixel" (those tiny mirrors) from the "static" location of the LEDs or lasers. This constant need to "repaint" the colors could create a rainbow effect. But the DLP is SO FAST (240 .vs 120 for the newest LCD) that it is hard to imagine having the rainbows be a REAL issue. But those with "golden" eyes can see just about anything and everything--whether it's there or NOT.

TV/video/movies is really a mind game. It presents a series of STILLS and our mind sees MOTION. Is it possible that because early models of DLP DID have serious rainbow issues that some people STILL see those rainbows with their mind's eye? Perception IS REALITY, so if you CAN see them, whether or NOT they are there--AND IT DIMINISHES your viewing experience, then DLP technology is not for you.

Classico

I guess one man's "direct line" is another man's 45 degree angle...:cool:

Moonhawk, I hear you, but my experience with the SAMMY is that the dropoff in brightness comes B4 45 degrees. Just HOW much it is affected and at which degree depends on ones perception of just how much PQ degradation one is willing to accept. I am used to my old 65" CRT which is not really plagued with that issue--which is why I would like to replace it (soon I hope) with one that is ALSO NOT plagued with that issue-- because I have a larger room with 90degree seating which is beyond even your 45degree acceptance level.

So you see we're only separated by a matter of degrees.

Classico

Righto--not giving you a hard time. I realize it's up to the individual, that's the point I was trying to make. For me, it's not so much that 45 degrees is great, but that I don't usually need to view from that angle, except for once in a while when I like to nap on a perticular couch, and 45 is OK. Other LED owners say 45 is just fine.

So I comment mainly to let others know so they're not turned off without seeing for themselves what is acceptable to them. It's a shame when some people don't consider some item because they heard a negative comment about it from someone--which is perfectly valid for the commenter--but which may not apply to everyone.

Hope you find the set you're looking for, and that the Laservue is all that. :)

I have heard that some people CAN see rainbows with LEDs also. DLP sets ALL require the COLOR source to be in sync with those "tiny" mirrors. Unlike a plasma or LCD which has ALL colors in a location at each pixel, the DLP must color each "pixel" (those tiny mirrors) from the "static" location of the LEDs or lasers. This constant need to "repaint" the colors could create a rainbow effect. But the DLP is SO FAST (240 .vs 120 for the newest LCD) that it is hard to imagine having the rainbows be a REAL issue. But those with "golden" eyes can see just about anything and everything--whether it's there or NOT.

TV/video/movies is really a mind game. It presents a series of STILLS and our mind sees MOTION. Is it possible that because early models of DLP DID have serious rainbow issues that some people STILL see those rainbows with their mind's eye? Perception IS REALITY, so if you CAN see them, whether or NOT they are there--AND IT DIMINISHES your viewing experience, then DLP technology is not for you.

Classico


Some people see rainbows on Plasma’s, they use pulse width modulation like DLP.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995

I see Dead People.

http://rtoonline.com/Content/Article/aug08/rentdirect_primetime088508.asp?ptid=89563517

Wonder if anyone in Vegas went to this? If so, was it all they claim it to be?

Interesting quote:


LaserVue will raise the bar for large screen television by delivering twice the color at half the power of today's HDTVs while at the same time providing an unparalleled 3D viewing experience. Mitsubishi has effectively engineered laser beams to function as the ultimate light engine for this premium large screen television product.
So unless you're a green 3D enthusiast wanting color technology that nothign is filmed in yet, is this TV worth it?

I see Dead People.

they were standing in line waiting on the Laservue release

they were standing in line waiting on the Laservue releaseThat's how long they had to wait. :p

In speaking with a fairly knowledgeable Costco geek today, I mentioned Laservue and the possibility of a late November delivery date. He immediately countered that SOMEPLACE has them on display NOW. (Aug. 20.)

I counted with "Uh.... I don't think so," but he replied that he read someplace (Engadget.com?) that a store, back East perhaps, had received all of THREE Mitsubishi Laservue sets.)

Any one else come across this scuttlebutt?

In speaking with a fairly knowledgeable Costco geek today...

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smiles2/kopfkratz.gif http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/lolup.gif

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/!rolling.gif





;)

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.

A Costco Geek is someone that couldn't cut it at as a Best Buy Geek.

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.

A Costco Geek is someone that couldn't cut it at as a Best Buy Geek.

You might be surprised, given all the down sizing in the Silicon Valley. Costco, BTW is a much better work place than BB.

Here's another (oldie but goodie):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS6wsJRGqnQ That link got me hooked on the possibility of getting one.

Now they're saying 160 lbs.!!! Ugh, I just lugged a dead 185 lb. SD RPTV out of my basement in anticipation of a new (possibly LaserVue) HDTV. You mean to tell me that they want me to lug something over 100 lbs. back down the stairs??? ...and their carefully articulated vague description of pricing...c'mon a 160+ lb. box has to cost way less than LCD or Plasma...they're just going to gouge because "them thar's lazers in there."

OK...sorry Mitsubishi. I am just getting tired of no clear leader (when balancing price and PQ) with the hopes of the LaserVue Holy Grail dangling out there with the likelihood of it being just an over-priced tin cup.

Well, if I haven't dissed you too much Mits., I'd be glad to host one of your LaserVues in my home. You furnish the set (free of charge as a promo to my neighborhood) and I'll furnish the electricity and couch potato ("potatoe" for the Quail fans out there)--just PM me, and I'll send you the delivery address.


Here is a video I just found on youtube, it was taken in July.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKKFMfNg5o

It said the viewing angle is over 160 degrees...whether or not that is with no degradation in brightness I don't know. He said the 65inch would weigh roughly 160 pounds and would be competitively priced with flat panels at the time of release in the 3rd Quarter. When asked about the life of the lasers he said there is no decay in lasers over time, so hopefully they last a long time. Might be old news to some, but the first time I've seen it.

Here's another (oldie but goodie):

Now they're saying 160 lbs.!!! Ugh, I just lugged a dead 185 lb. SD RPTV out of my basement in anticipation of a new (possibly LaserVue) HDTV. You mean to tell me that they want me to lug something over 100 lbs. back down the stairs??? ...

These are great

http://www.amazon.com/Shoulder-Dolly-LD1000/dp/B00022749Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1219285619&sr=1-1

These are great

http://www.amazon.com/Shoulder-Dolly-LD1000/dp/B00022749Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1219285619&sr=1-1

Agreed, but notice that they don't show any photos of the movers make the 90 degree turns of a stair case. Also, none appear to be sweating, or on the verge of a myocardial infarction as they're are winding up and around the staircase. I used a variant of the one you posted that just wraps around the arms. Without it, it would have become a 185 lb. paperweight eternally destined for the basement storage room.

I guess going down the stairs may be easier given gravity. Hopefully, it can withstand the twists and turns to get it down. However, since Mits. appears to be saying it will last forever, I will never have to get a new TV again!

NOTE: The above comments may be peppered with some sarcasm. Reader please be adivsed.

Showing my relative ignorance, these are a TI DLP with lasers for a light source right? Is there anything inherent to the laser tech that will eliminate rainbows?

Yes. The lasers can be switched on and off at a much higher frequency than the color switching by rotating wheel. The human eye acts as a low pass filter to such a train of switching colors. So long as the frequency of this switching exceeds the bandwidth of the eye, these colors will be added together, much in the way as spatial color mixtures are added together. There are other advantages, as well; since there is no wear out mechanism for such electronic switching, the "virtual wheel" can function for the life of the set.

Costco, BTW is a much better work place than BB.

Oh, I'm sure Costco is much better in a lot of ways. However, if you're someone that's into electronics and/or HT gear, I think you'd rather work where you're surrounded by it and not where you might end up stocking pallets of mayonnaise.

Well, if I haven't dissed you too much Mits., I'd be glad to host one of your LaserVues in my home. You furnish the set (free of charge as a promo to my neighborhood) and I'll furnish the electricity and couch potato ("potatoe" for the Quail fans out there)--just PM me, and I'll send you the delivery address.

Right wingers like myself now prefer "sopha spud" to "kowch potatoe" becuz it are ezer to spel. :eek:

No DLP RPTV can currently match the black levels of a 9G Kuro. Can 1G laser make up the difference? I kinda doubt it. Then there's the question of rainbows. Even without a color wheel, some people still see RBE on LED DLPs.


I can still see RBE on my HL-T6187S if I really try, but I actually noticed WORSE RBE on a PRO-101FD today (1080p on the component input). Is there a thread for people who can see RBE on Plasma sets? It was quite irritating to watch.


EDIT: Nevermind, I just read backwards in this very thread.
Some people see rainbows on Plasma’s, they use pulse width modulation like DLP.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995

Plasma’s have other “issues” as well like dither noise and a tendance to have a “digital” look. No such thing as the perfect display.

I don’t know what current DLP’s are like; they have not been available here for over a year.

Plasma’s have other “issues” as well like dither noise and a tendance to have a “digital” look. No such thing as the perfect display.

I don’t know what current DLP’s are like; they have not been available here for over a year.
This is talking about an Aussie company ready to ship out laser tvs this year. Heard anything about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6GRggDPgds

After lurking specifically in this thread for quite some time, I'd like to add some thoughts / questions to the mix.

My current TV tech

Since the TV technology following CRT has had so far rather disappointing PQ, I'm still using an old 24" Sony CRT. :eek: Of course other reasons were: No HD content, close viewing range, no money. :)
A few months conditions have changed so I have obviously been very curious about LaserTVs knowing about them for years. Like many, my patience is starting to grow very thin.

My environment

I don't have a true dedicated Home Theater yet, just a standard living room with a TV corner. Viewing distance to TV is about 9.8 feet. The new TV has a width constraint of 59 inches. Depth is pretty much arbitrary.

My Requirements

I do throw content of various resolutions at my TV (Europe still has a lot of SD content for one) so ideally I'd like my TV to be capable of true multi-synch. If it isn't, it should have excellent scale-up-capability out-of-the-box.

Given the viewing distance and successively moving more and more to HD a 60 inch widescreen TV would be about right. I don't care about thickness, it just should be manageable by 2 normal people without shoulder straps. :)

Is LaserVue Multi-Sync?

LCD, Plasma, even LED DLP technologies are inherently fixed pixel displays.

A long time ago I read LaserTVs would be the first semi-flat-panel-displays bringing true multi-synch-capability back the table.

[When I have three posts, I'll gladly update this one with a few links]

Multi-sync wasn't discussed in this long thread once, nor has this major feature ever been mentioned by any Mitsubishi rep in an interview, so I'm obviously beginning to seriously doubt the validity of this statement.

Since DLP technology is relying on many small mirrors to reflect the beams to the screen, isn't it inherently fixed-pixel-tech irregardless of the used light source, be it bulbs, leds or lasers?

What about DLP overseas transportation?

While DLP-sets clearly seem to offer the best PQ for the buck, I'm starting to get disenchanted about this tech before ever having the option to lay my hands nor eyes on one.

I'm located in Europe and have read at numerous sources that transportation of a DLP TV is a major pain and should not be done lying down due to the fragile mirrors. If true, I'd need a major distributor to pull this off. I can't imagine me sitting in a plane back to Europe holding a large-screen DLP on my lap refusing to lay it down or let it go out of hand...

Of course I noticed the new Samsung 3rd generation LED DLPs. I have pulled numerous strings so far, but failed to get any offer to ship a HL61A750 to Europe. Samsung Europe told me they have no intention of rolling these sets out here and Samsung US tells me they can't help me; I should talk to Samsung Europe or try my luck with Amazon.com or BestBuy. However neither ship these sets to Europe.

I'm afraid LaserTVs might suffer the same fate, if they ever get released at all. :(

A long time ago I read LaserTVs would be the first semi-flat-panel-displays bringing true multi-synch-capability back the table.

I expect those comments were based on assumptions that laser TVs would involve a laser scanning across a screen much like CRTs. At least for LaserVue, that is not the case. The lasers are simply an alternative light source for the DLP, as opposed to conventional lamps or LEDs. Being DLP based, they are inherently a fixed pixel display. That's not to say that someone won't come out with a scanning type laser, but I wouldn't expect one any time soon. If you're looking for something in the near future, the best you can do is get a good 1080p set that is either known to have a very good scaler, or use an outboard scaler.

Is LaserVue Multi-Sync?
Since DLP technology is relying on many small mirrors to reflect the beams to the screen, isn't it inherently fixed-pixel-tech irregardless of the used light source, be it bulbs, leds or lasers?

LaserVue is DLP and hence fixed pixel. You want to go with upscaling anyway, 576 line PAL video displayed natively on a 60” screen is not the best believe me.



What about DLP overseas transportation?

Most RPTV’s sold in the US are made there (or in Mexico), they usually do not work on 240 volts nor do not accept European 576i 50Hz, and 1080i 50Hz video signals, only US 60Hz signals.

I expect there is little chance the LazerVue with be sold outside the US/Canada, the rest of the world have abandoned RPTV’s so there is no demand for a 240 volt, 50Hz video compatible model.

I expect those comments were based on assumptions that laser TVs would involve a laser scanning across a screen much like CRTs. At least for LaserVue, that is not the case. The lasers are simply an alternative light source for the DLP, as opposed to conventional lamps or LEDs. Being DLP based, they are inherently a fixed pixel display. That's not to say that someone won't come out with a scanning type laser, but I wouldn't expect one any time soon.
LaserVue is DLP and hence fixed pixel.
Thanks for confirming my understanding of DLP, even though I'm not happy that this attests to my own cautious conclusion which I didn't want to be true and ignored for way too long. Sadly, mentioned source, which doesn't cover anything but LaserTVs, specifically mentioned the Mitsubishi Laser series when making this statement. :mad:

If you're looking for something in the near future, the best you can do is get a good 1080p set that is either known to have a very good scaler, or use an outboard scaler.

You want to go with upscaling anyway, 576 line PAL video displayed natively on a 60” screen is not the best believe me.

Very well, seems I need to re-focus my attention on existing fixed-pixel-displays with good onboard or outboard scaling, thus leaving this vapor-thread again. Thanks for having me and the nudge in the right direction. :)

Maybe there is still hope I can find a 1080p fixed-pixel-display at around 50-61 inch which can scale really well (build-in or external), has decent PQ, dark levels, power requirements, viewing angels, 3D capability? and is affordable at around $3k?

...I know you are already laughing at this, so realistically I do have only very little hope, which is the main reason I'm still stuck with my 24" CRT. I have seen non HD-PAL signals on the large scale TVs sold here.. yuck. Too bad I missed the jump on the 50" CRTs when they were still available, or I'd have more patience.

The closest bet yet has been the 3rd generation Samsung LED-DLP, which I have yet failed to see either in person nor get shipped overseas.


Most RPTV’s sold in the US are made there (or in Mexico), they usually do not work on 240 volts nor do not accept European 576i 50Hz, and 1080i 50Hz video signals, only US 60Hz signals.

I expect there is little chance the LazerVue with be sold outside the US/Canada, the rest of the world have abandoned RPTV’s so there is no demand for a 240 volt, 50Hz video compatible model.

I don't care much about volts. :p There are transformers for this. As with any tech, I try not to limit myself to the options available in my country nor continent. A TV would not be the first (but certainly largest) item I imported into Europe.

However, I'm curious about your 50Hz statement, implying LaserVue and other RPTV HD-TVs are only capable of handling a 50Hz signal. If that was the case these TVs wouldn't be allowed to carry the official "HD_ready" slogan, unless I'm mistaken. See wikipedia. Do they not?

So with the Hz and Volts problems hopefully out of the way, I "only" need a good affordable scaler build-in or external.

However, I'm curious about your 50Hz statement, implying LaserVue and other RPTV HD-TVs are only capable of handling a 50Hz signal. If that was the case these TVs wouldn't be allowed to carry the official "HD_ready" slogan, unless I'm mistaken. See wikipedia. Do they not?

60Hz = North America
50Hz = Europe

Some Flat panels come with the ability to do both by switching over according to region and power but I don't believe an owners manual exists to actually provide a definitive answer to your question so it appears a premature one.

Many of the Sharp LCD's have both switchable 110/240 power in detailed spec's of at least the SE94 series. Switching to 240 via it's built-in should automatically force 50Hz.

I'd wait until debut and get confirmation from Mits Support.:)

60Hz = North America
50Hz = Europe

Some Flat panels come with the ability to do both by switching over according to region and power but I don't believe an owners manual exists to actually provide a definitive answer to your question so it appears a premature one.

Many of the Sharp LCD's have both switchable 110/240 power in detailed spec's of at least the SE94 series. Switching to 240 via it's built-in should automatically force 50Hz.

I'd wait until debut and get confirmation from Mits Support.:)
Thank you for this info!

The more I research my upcoming HDTV purchase, the more frustrating it gets. Just know I learned that the "HD Ready 1080p" Logo common in Europe, is only common in Europe because it has been issued by the EICTA the so called "voice of the European digital technology industry"... :rolleyes:

The logo does indeed specify TVs carrying this logo must accept input signals in both frequencies.

Alas, the logo self-certification doesn't make any specification how the TV has to handle those signals. Explicitly it doesn't specify a 60 Hz signal must be displayed with 24fps... If my Sony CRT didn't fully support PAL and NTSC at 50 and 60 Hz I couldn't run both local TV and my imported video game systems. The new TV must support both standards or it's a definite no-go.

TVs produced soley for the US or Japanese market, usually indeed only support 60 Hz, since these market obviously are not interested in supporting the clearly inferior 50 Hz European standard.

Bleh. I have meanwhile located a very interesting affordable scaler 'GenfenTV Scaler Pro'. If this device is as good as claimed, I'd just have to combine this with a TV carrying the logo, handling 60 Hz with 24 fps. The TV wouldn't have to have any scaling capability whatsoever to save cost.

Alas, this affordable scaling device shares many similarities to LaserVue. Way too early announcement, delays, vaporware, lots of speculation... :(

The 50Hz issue is definitely NOT out of the way.
TV’s sold in Europe and here in Australia are “world models”, they are manufactured in Asia for export all over the planet and therefore support multi voltage and both 50Hz and 60Hz SD and HD video standards.
RPTV’s sold in the US are usually made there and are NOT for export, therefore there is no need for them to support 50Hz video and the electronics can be made simpler and cheaper.

As an example I have a 70” Sony SXRD model KS-70R200A, it is made in Japan and supports 120-240 volts as well as 576i 50Hz, 720p 50Hz and 1080i/p 50Hz for PAL countries, it also supports 480i 60Hz, 760p 60Hz and 1080i/p 60Hz for NTSC countries outside of the US.
The US equivalent is called an XBR2, it is manufactured in the US and although it looks identical and has the same spec’s, it does NOT support 50Hz video signals, it does not need to as it is not exported.

My previous TV was a 57” Hitachi HD RPTV, again it was different to the US manufactured model and was multi standard for voltage and video, the US model was not and that applied to all US manufactured RPTV’s at the time as far as I know.


LCD and Plasmas are not made in the US so most it not all should be multi standard. All TV’s sold here over the last 20 years or so have been multi standard, none we made in the US.

So be very, very careful about importing a TV from the US, make absolutely sure it supports 50Hz video.
If the LaserVue is made in Japan or Asia for world markets you should be OK, but I would not get too hopeful about that just yet.

This thread in danger off of dropping of Page 1! I think everyone has just about exhausted the chit-chat that we can muster in lieu of real news. How depressing....

Oops, sorry! It's now bumped up again!

This thread in danger off of dropping of Page 1! ummmm :confused:

Originally Posted by cjut01
This thread in danger off of dropping of Page 1!

If there is not positive news from CEDIA, it will.

If there is not positive news from CEDIA, it will.

+1 The rats will leave the sunken ship and go buy their toys elsewhere. :eek:

Are you listening Mits? :mad: :mad: :mad:

Seggers

in the interest of keeping the thread going...

at what price point and conditions would YOU personally buy the laservue?

hearing from the Mits rep that the 65" will weigh 160lbs sure put a damper on my enthusiasm, since I'll have to lug that thing to the 2nd floow.

still, let's say that it has no glaring problems with geometry, viewing angle is decent (I don't expect to be able to watch TV lying on the floor; just as long as I can sit 45-60 deg horizontally from center and see no marked light falloff, I'm okay), no bad sparkle or reflection from the screen, bright enough that brightness isn't an issue for daytime viewing.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect Kuro-level black levels and shadow details (notice Mits is touting the colors and not saying much about black levels), but let's say it's better than any current DLP and equals or better than a good Panasonic plasma.

Then I think I'll go for it if MSRP is $5000 and it streets around $3500 after a few months.

But if it's in the $6-7000 range, then no. It doesn't matter how good it is. I'll root for other people to buy it and for somebody to come out with laser front projector.

I wouldn't place to much confidence in the 160lb weight mentioned by the rep in the video. First, he said in a 65" size it's very light weight, around 160lbs as opposed to a similarly sized plasma or lcd weighing "400lbs". Next, as I understand it the only material difference between this set and a lamp based dlp is the light source. I find it hard to believe the laser light source would nearly double the weight of the set.

I'm more worried about ever seeing this set released than what this gentlemen said about it's weight. As I and others have said, if we don't get some hard facts at CEDIA we might as well forget about it.

I'd have to wonder where the 160 came from for a 65 tv. The link is for the Sharp 65 at BB. Looking at the specs, the tv weighs 124lb.

So where did the extra 40lb come from?

As to cost, assuming it met the criteria laid out by barth2k then I'd agree with the 5k down to 3.3k after a while. I'd also surmize that the 73 (my prefered size) will be about 1k more and down by the same sort of measure in the same sort of time span.

Considering the lcd can be had for for either 5 or 6 depending on which one, I don't think the market will stomach much more.

I also hope the Cedia bares fruit for those of us waiting for the LV. But in case it doesn't I went to one of the local BBs to get me a looksee on the 73835 to tide me over.

Very nice......

Seggers

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8734211&type=product&id=1201913529944

It might not be worth it from an economics standpoint for Mitsubishi to come out with this set.

The move away from RPTV has been in effect for years - and Sony showing their Z70XBR5 SXRD at the shows for a year before pulling the plug, even though the SXRD sets were selling well, just does not bode well for this set. People just want a thin set - regardless of the lesser PQ. It looks better than their SD set and thats all that matters to them.

Combine that with potential problems of the blue lasers as has been widely reported and the economic recession that is upon the USA, Mitsubishi could very well have second thoughts about bringing this to market.

I reckon it will be released.

I'm presuming, with economies of scale, the laser technology makes the sets around the same price to make.

Releasing the set will add cache to Mitsubishi's technical prowess in the eyes of consumers.

Also, from the consumer's point of view, who may have doubts about conventional RP sets, there will be no expensive bulbs to replace, and the set itself is slimmer, so more visually appealing.

Obviously, LV will have to be competitively priced.

Retailers who have a LV on display will, IMO, easily persuade buyers to at least consider a LV over a LCD or plasma, the price difference with better PQ may well convince more consumers to go the LV route.

And... this is Gen 1, it will continue to improve over time.

Why would Mit continue making old tech sets when demand will/should increase (and thus profits) for Laser View.

M.

+1 The rats will leave the sunken ship and go buy their toys elsewhere. :eek:

Are you listening Mits? :mad: :mad: :mad:

SeggersI am seriously looking at the new Panasonic 65" Plasma (TH-65PZ850U) that will be released next week. The 58" model is already shipping.

I am seriously looking at the new Panasonic 65" Plasma (TH-65PZ850U) that will be released next week. The 58" model is already shipping.

I also have the 65 Panny in my short list , to replace my Mitsubishi 73927. I want to see the laser but for the same price I will take the plasma.

I regularly check the TV aisles at my local COSTCO and have noted a steep decline in the number of RPTV's they have on show. Yesterday, there was only one model on show. Unscientific, I know; but this could be a marker of where 65" and smaller sales are going. It appears to me that RPTV needs to go to much larger sizes to stay in business. I know many people are purchasing flat panel because of the "buzz", rather than any actual need for the thinness of a flat panel. I also know that I'd purchase a flat panel in a sub 65" just to avoid the lamp replacement hassle.

A long-life laser lamp is a significant advertising point, but only if the set sells for less than an equivalent flat panel. It will never compete at a premium price point because of superior performance--just look at BETA/VHS as an example. The problem with 80" TV's (where the rptv will really shine in cost) is that few people have the room and this will not be a large market until the sets are like wallpaper.

Ted99...

I completely agree with the need for RP's to get bigger, and, if the new LV hype is true, it may well be possible to make an 85/100" set with the same or less depth than the current 70/73" RP TV's.

...an 85" LV RP for less money of a inferior 60" plasma would be irresistible to many with an almost 50% larger screen and a noticeably better PQ !

Mits also need to improve the sound quality on the product.

I currently cant afford a big posh TV, but when I can, I'll almost certainly go the RP route 'cos the PQ & value are presently an unbeatable combination.

I think the success of the technology completely rests on Mits PR & marketing departments, and of course the price.

If they can really push the media & get the sets reviewed on TV tech programmes and in all major AV magazines and websites, and then build on this exposure with the release of bigger and better improved sets, the LV RP will definitely be on the savvy consumers radar.

M.

Just returned from a Tweeters in the Chicago suburbs. Went there to find out about the Samsung 55a950, which was advertised in a Tweeter mailing I recieved days ago(seems that release is being delayed). While there, I asked the associate about the Laservue sets and if they are coming out. He said they have absolutely no idea when these are coming out, if at all. They have been told nothing about dates or price. Kind of unusual, I would think, considering there is a little more than a month in the third quarter:rolleyes:

The latest issue of Electronics House (Best Products of the Year Issue) has this little blurb in the middle of the Editors Letter at the beginning of the issue:

"I recently had a demo of Mitsubishi's new offerings, and I feel that both its LaserVue and Integrated Sound Projector are groundbreaking." - Cindy Davis, Editor-in-Chief.

Well, I decided to leave the sinking ship.

On monday I will order a 11th generation Plasma from Panasonic, the TH-42 PX 80E.
'E' stands for the European version, so it has all the connectivity options I could ever need.

It costs about half of what I was willing to spend on a LaserVue, but then again it's only 42", too. Coming from a 22" 4:3 CRT, a high-end 42" Plasma will be plenty for the next years.

Why did I decide on this model:
- rave reviews
- purchasable in Europe now
- very affordable / great PQ for the buck
- at my viewing distance "HD-Ready" is preferable to "Full HD" because
* i won't see the difference anyway
* the smaller model doesn't need any fans (quiet)
* less heat, less power consumption (about 200 W on average)
- the picture quality and neutrality is impeccable
- excellent black levels second only to the Pioneer Kuros, very close behind
- great / very decent sound out of the box according to many reviews
- DVB-T tuner out of the box (matters in Europe)
- thanks to only "HD-Ready (= roughly 720p native resolution)" and good on-board VP very decent PAL image which is still SD
- fluid 1080p/24p for BlueRay
- no viewing angle dependency (Wii gaming!)
- almost instant refresh time
- 100Hz, stable image

I have been watching the incredibly slow LaserTV-progress for at least 2 years. I had to set a deadline at one point, Q4 2008 it is.

There is absolutely no hope I can get a LaserTV by that timeframe (or anytime before 2010) in Europe with the compatibility (50 & 60 Hz), connectivity, PQ and price I want.

Since I don't spend that much money now, I could stomach to make another upgrade in 3 years if the holy grail (LaserTV with scanning tech) is released by then. Very doubtful.

Life is short, you better enjoy it while you can! HD here I come.

Hi again...

I reckon that now Mits has shown Cindy Davis, Editor-in-Chief of Electronic House this tech, it makes it all the more certain that it will come to market.

Mits refusal to discuss LV means one of two things, either the product is total absolute crap, or it really is, to quote Cindy Davis, "groundbreaking" .

IMO Mits are saving this new tech press release for next months trade show... they really are that confident that their new LV is so awesome they're gonna amaze us all and blow our minds, and steal all the headlines & limelight in the process.

'Graduate' - Hold off for just 2 more weeks or so and see what happens - I think you may regret acting in haste, and end up repenting at leisure.

Watch this space till CEDIA.

Mark.

Hi again...

I reckon that now Mits has shown Cindy Davis, Editor-in-Chief of Electronic House this tech, it makes it all the more certain that it will come to market.

Mits refusal to discuss LV means one of two things, either the product is total absolute crap, or it really is, to quote Cindy Davis, "groundbreaking" .

IMO Mits are saving this new tech press release for next months trade show... they really are that confident that their new LV is so awesome they're gonna amaze us all and blow our minds, and steal all the headlines & limelight in the process.

'Graduate' - Hold off for just 2 more weeks or so and see what happens - I think you may regret acting in haste, and end up repenting at leisure.

Watch this space till CEDIA.

Mark.

With all of the different directions I'm going in(65835,52246,55a950 to mention a few), I think I'll take your advice and wait until CEDIA. But if no Laservue info comes out then, I'll bet Laservue is Dead In The Water!

If that is the case, uinless Mitsubishi gets serious about delivering displays that can be calibrated properly, you can bet that Mitsubishi as a consumer electronics player is essentially dead in the water as well. At that point is will be just another name that used to mean something.

Are there any Mitsubishi executives out there who care to defend the company and discuss the vision that its leadership is expressing at this point? It seems like a floundering division of an industrial giant that could just as easily be shut down and let the rest of the electronics portion of the corporation be effective.

The fact that they have let the LaserVue product create such confusion with no real information available is, at this point, simply foolish. Even if they are having problems with the technology, some simple updates would keep those who might be seriously interested in the technology tuned in. The arrogance of the company has worn thin with even the most loyal customers and dealers.

It costs about half of what I was willing to spend on a LaserVue, but then again it's only 42", too.

If you're willing to settle for a 42" display, then you've been wasting your time waiting on Laser. Also remember that unless you're sitting 7' away or closer, you're not going to see the benefit of 1080p anyway. The size of your previous screen rarely matters. Seating distance is what counts.

Good marketing opportunities this year include the Olympics and the start of football season. Mitsubishi has already missed the Olympics. Waiting for CEDIA to make the announcement and miss the start of football season just does not make sense in terms of marketing. It smells trouble to me.

Let's hope Mitsubishi won't miss the Superbowl.

The latest issue of Electronics House (Best Products of the Year Issue) has this little blurb in the middle of the Editors Letter at the beginning of the issue:

"I recently had a demo of Mitsubishi's new offerings, and I feel that both its LaserVue and Integrated Sound Projector are groundbreaking." - Cindy Davis, Editor-in-Chief.

Well, I can name quite a few "groundbreaking" offerings seen at CES and CEDIA (not to mention other places) that were touted and never made it to market. In fact, Electronic House Magazine still has them on their site.

Considering the time frame usually needed with these types of publications, I wonder when she actually viewed the unit?

The line about the Integrated Sound Projector - well, that will also run up the MSRP.

If you're willing to settle for a 42" display, then you've been wasting your time waiting on Laser. Also remember that unless you're sitting 7' away or closer, you're not going to see the benefit of 1080p anyway. The size of your previous screen rarely matters. Seating distance is what counts.
Yeah, I know I wasted time. :mad:
And of course only seating distance really matters. It's 9.84' in my setup.
In shame, I have to admit: I have been so blinded by the Laser tech that I didn't even bother to carefully look at my options before now.
Only a few days ago, I did finally wake up and look at the current situation more objectively and in full detail.

Initially, I aimed at a roughly 50" display. When I read LaserVue will only come in 65" and larger, I gulped but 65" it was...
Even though it was kinda mad: This 65" screen would totally fill up the TV space making it one of the biggest items in the living room. I don't care much about PAL TV, but my girlfriend does. Without multi-sync or an excellent / expensive scaler, the blown up SD-image will look like crap on 65" on merely 9.84 feet. The PAL signal in Europe won't be HD for a few more years to come. Yeah we are that much behind! I cannot afford to get a TV which only looks good at HD.

I finally figured 42" will be plenty judging from where I'm coming from (so previous screen size kinda matters). The PAL image will look good out-of-the-box, no need for an external scaler, very low and effective cost solution.

The price for this interim TV is in fact so low, I can easily stomach another upgrade in a few years.

By that time there might be LaserTVs in Europe at a reasonable price and generation, and even PAL TV should be HD. Until then I will have at least enjoyed a little bit HD-love on an interim solution.

I do believe to finally have come to a reasonable decision. Fortunately, I didn't even waste that much time. This new G11 panel from Panasonic is only a few months old. It's the first Panasonic panel which does in fact meet most of my requirements on PQ and is affordable to boot. Thanks to the idea of a Laser TV I could hold out long enough to wait for this. :)

I wish others more luck in holding out, waiting for CEDIA and whatnot. Sorry for interrupting the interesting speculations!

I wish others more luck in holding out, waiting for CEDIA and whatnot. Sorry for interrupting the interesting speculations!

Not to worry...enjoy your new set. :)

Well, I decided to leave the sinking ship.
On monday I will order a 11th generation Plasma from Panasonic, the TH-42 PX 80E.
'E' stands for the European version, so it has all the connectivity options I could ever need.

It’s difficult to image how anyone interested in a 65” or 73” LazerVue would now be content with a 42” Plasma, they are worlds apart in size and price.



It costs about half of what I was willing to spend on a LaserVue, but then again it's only 42", too. Coming from a 22" 4:3 CRT, a high-end 42" Plasma will be plenty for the next years.

A 65” or 73” LaserVue is never likely to be available for the sort of money you are willing to spend, don’t know where you got the idea it would be.



Life is short, you better enjoy it while you can! HD here I come.

If this is truly what you believe, I would suggest you find the cash for a 60” Kuro or 65” Panasonic, you could be dead in 2 years, without ever knowing what 1080 HD is all about. (you wont on a 42” at 9.8’)


Yeah, I know I wasted time. :mad:
And of course only seating distance really matters. It's 9.84' in my setup.

Almost 10’ is a LONG way back to view a little 42” TV, you will never see the detail in 1080 video on that combination. A 70” would be the MINIMUM size for your viewing distance if HD viewing is your aim.



Initially, I aimed at a roughly 50" display. When I read LaserVue will only come in 65" and larger, I gulped but 65" it was...

A 50” Panasonic would be a much better option then a 42” and well within your budget. Still way too small, but the extra 8” really helps.



Even though it was kinda mad: This 65" screen would totally fill up the TV space making it one of the biggest items in the living room. I don't care much about PAL TV, but my girlfriend does. Without multi-sync or an excellent / expensive scaler, the blown up SD-image will look like crap on 65" on merely 9.84 feet. The PAL signal in Europe won't be HD for a few more years to come. Yeah we are that much behind! I cannot afford to get a TV which only looks good at HD.
I finally figured 42" will be plenty judging from where I'm coming from (so previous screen size kinda matters). The PAL image will look good out-of-the-box, no need for an external scaler, very low and effective cost solution.

Multi-sync or the ability to display 576 line video natively is not useful on a big screen as I mentioned before, the individual lines are just way too visible. Upscaling, even via the scaler in current TV’s is definitely preferable, a high end scaler is not required.
PAL SD can look quite good on a decent 65” at 9.8’. You get used to screen size very quickly and after a week or so that 42” is going to look small and unsatisfying. Most owners of 42” sets soon wish for a larger model, so I strongly suggest you get the largest set you can afford, the 50” PX Panasonic is a good choice for your budget and only a little more expensive then the 42”.

I finally figured 42" will be plenty judging from where I'm coming from (so previous screen size kinda matters). The PAL image will look good out-of-the-box, no need for an external scaler, very low and effective cost solution.


You should have saved a bit of money and just gotten a 720p set, since you won't be able to distinguish 1080p from that distance anyway.

The 42PX80 is a 768 model and very inexpensive. The PZ 1080 models would be a complete waste of money at 10’, even in a 50”.
A 50PX80 is only about 25-30% more then a 42PX80, it’s a no brainier discission as far as I am concerned.

Jeez, you guys...

Rub it in, why don'cha? :eek::D

The 42PX80 is a 768 model and very inexpensive. The PZ 1080 models would be a complete waste of money at 10’, even in a 50”.
A 50PX80 is only about 25-30% more then a 42PX80, it’s a no brainier discission as far as I am concerned.
:-) Thanks for all the well-intentioned advice.

I agree a 50PX80 would be a good interim choice and within interim budget.
If it was available in Europe. It's not the first time we get shafted. Panasonic decided to sell the 50PX80 only in the US as the 50PX80U. Europe gets the 50PX8E which lacks most of the G11-panel-properties, that is the better contrast and blacklevels, VReal-3 etc. I did compare both and did much prefer the 80's model PQ.
I would have to get a PZ model to get a Panasonic 50" with all G11-panel-properties.
But as has been well observed already, a 42/50 1080p model just doesn't make any sense on 9.8 feet, not to mention this model would be much more expensive than 30% (more like 120%).

I would love 1080p on a 65" inch screen at 9.8', such as the expected LaserVue. I wouldn't in the least mind it being one of the biggest "furniture" pieces. ;).
However, 60+ inch screens are not affordable without RPTV DLP tech which is denied to European shoppers.

I had to set an upgrade deadline at one point or another.

I wanted to go from a Ford straight to a Lamborghini. It's just not possible in Europe in an acceptable time frame. I'll step up to a Chrysler first and go from there.

That doesn't imply I am willing to pay Lamborghini (Laser) price for Chrysler tech (Plasma), which is exactly why I won't grab a Kuro or a 50+ PZ Panasonic Plasma screen.

Concerning the LaserTV prices, there are still no official numbers. $3k wasn't that unrealistic. If LaserTV would have been the second coming to Jesus in its first generation I would probably have been willing to spend more than that up to $5k max. But then I wouldn't be willing to upgrade again anytime soon, so it had to be near perfect.

I do just take a different upgrade path, that's all. I still will get a LaserVue or similar at 60"+ when it will be available in Europe at reasonable generation and price. I just lost all hope this to happen before 2010/2011.

Panasonic seems to be overwhelmed with demand, so it will be a few weeks until I can get my Chrysler-TV shipped. So there is still a little time for a Laser miracle to happen in Europe. :)

Concerning the LaserTV prices, there are still no official numbers. $3k wasn't that unrealistic.

Vegas odds have George Bush more likely to be elected to a 3rd term as President than the Laservu @ $3k.

:-) I agree a 50PX80 would be a good interim choice and within interim budget.
If it was available in Europe. It's not the first time we get shafted. Panasonic decided to sell the 50PX80 only in the US as the 50PX80U. Europe gets the 50PX8E which lacks most of the G11-panel-properties, that is the better contrast and blacklevels, VReal-3 etc. I did compare both and did much prefer the 80's model PQ.


What “G11-panel-properties” are lacking in the PX8?
The PX8 and PX80 use the same panel and electronics, contrast ratio and black levels are identical so I don’t understand why you have dismissed the 50PX8.
I have compared PX8 and PX80 side by side and they looked identical to me, can’t see the point in paying extra for the PX80 unless you need the extra HDMI input.
If the PX80 looks significantly different to the PX8 I would suggest it is a setup issue.

If it where me I would take a 50PX8 over a 42PX80 without a moments hesitation.

What “G11-panel-properties” are lacking in the PX8?
The PX8 and PX80 use the same panel and electronics, contrast ratio and black levels are identical so I don’t understand why you have dismissed the 50PX8.
I have compared PX8 and PX80 side by side and they looked identical to me, can’t see the point in paying extra for the PX80 unless you need the extra HDMI input.
If the PX80 looks significantly different to the PX8 I would suggest it is a setup issue.

If it where me I would take a 50PX8 over a 42PX80 without a moments hesitation.
At first glimpse I also thought the only difference between the PX80 and PX8 was the extra HDMI port...

When I was standing in front of these sets in a presentation room 2 days ago, one guy next to me (other customer who the clerks tried to sell an LCD to) told me repeatedly the PX80 had the better image compared to the PX8. I had to admit the colors looked better, fonts were better readable, better contrast and black level overall (subtle but undeniably there). Both units where standing directly next to each other, so it was easy to compare them. I also assured him, this difference must have been a setup issue. Both sets are technically the same, only the input options differ slightly, after all... Obviously, they don't want to sell the 50PX8E today...

When I got home, I took a closer look at both official datasheets and found I had been in error. The other guy was right.. the 8E was indeed inferior PQ-wise.
So I'm afraid these sets are in fact not identical, at least not the PX8 and PX80 sets sold in Europe, Germany. If they were I would get the 50 incher, no doubt!

Here are the relevant datasheets for the 50PX8 in German (http://www.panasonic.de/to?exlink=%20http://217.7.21.86/pdf_printing_neu/datenblatt_ph.asp?model=TH-42PX80E) and 42PX80 in German (http://www.panasonic.de/to?exlink=%20http://217.7.21.86/pdf_printing_neu/datenblatt_ph.asp?model=TH-42PX80E).

Let me point out the critical Plasma generation differences 42PX80E vs. 50PX8E:
- V-Real 3 vs. V-Real 2 (that's the build-in VP)
- dynamic contrast ratio 500.000:1 vs. 300:000:1
- natural contrast ratio 15:000:1 vs 10:000:1
- max. gray colors 4.096 vs 3.072
- max. colors: 68,7 Billion vs. 29 Billion
- picture mode Eco vs. no such mode (power saving feature)
- "Natural Vision Filter" vs. no such filter (more reflections on the PX8)

The 8E has about the features the G10 panel had, the V71 series. Basically it's just being resold under a new name.

The 50PX80U (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-Plasma-HDTVs/model.TH-50PX80U_11002_7000000000000005702) only sold in the US has all the properties of the PX80s series. That's the model I'd love to buy but can't (well the 'E' version for both 50 and 60Hz). :mad: See how we get shafted over and over again?

Next week there is a major electronic exhibition in Europe, Germany called IFA. I phoned Panasonic up today and asked them about the 50PX80E model while expressing my disappointment Europe only gets the castrated 50PX8E.

The rep told me not to know anything, but if there were any plans for that they would surely be announced next week at IFA.

Since delivery of my 42PX80E will take a few weeks due to high demand, I will cancel this order should the 50PX80E be released to the European market within this year and get that one instead.

Any new LASERVUE info:confused::)

I just received in the mail from a local HT store who is a Diamond dealer an ad stating in part it will soon have on display a Mits LaserVue set. Next time I go in I will try to get some news (I know the owner).

Can you scan it?

I just received in the mail from a local HT store who is a Diamond dealer an ad stating in part it will soon have on display a Mits LaserVue set. Next time I go in I will try to get some news (I know the owner).Trackman, the whole LaserVue world is at your feet! Give the man a call! We're hungry for any substantiated news!:D

Trackman, the whole LaserVue world is at your feet! Give the man a call! We're hungry for any substantiated news!:D
Oh we so are. Laser News to bring this thread back on track! Gimme gimme. CEDIA and IFA coming up, interesting couple of weeks ahead.

At first glimpse I also thought the only difference between the PX80 and PX8 was the extra HDMI port...


If you are being sold G10 50” panels it can’t last for long, G10 panels are out of production as far I know, wait a month or two and the G11 50” 768p panels should turn up.

Any new LASERVUE info:confused::)

Not as far as I can see, 48 pages and no useful info.:(

So, we're on the verge of these sets coming out! :)

Does anyone have information on the _vertical_ viewing angle? For my tastes, DLP has always been fine horizontal. It's the vertical that's a problem. Sounds silly, but in a room where kids lay on the floor, stand up to play Wii, having a bit more vertical would sure be welcomed.

Mitsu has been vague -- I've seen 160 degrees, but it hasn't said if that's horizontal, vertical, or, dare I assume, both? (Yeah, I won't believe it until I see it.)

Has anyone seen these or have opinions on viewing angle?

Can you scan it?

Sorry, my scanner is kaput - it keeps crashing Windows.

Trackman, the whole LaserVue world is at your feet! Give the man a call! We're hungry for any substantiated news!:D

I will - I have a contest certificate to redeem at his store. Be patient - my daughter just started a new school today and is with me all week - the morning traffic to her school and then to work (opposite direction) is brutal. I'll try to call the guy in the next day or two at lunchtime.

Not as far as I can see, 48 pages and no useful info.:(

CNET basically told the tale on 8/1 but no one bothered to read it.

Sorry, my scanner is kaput - it keeps crashing Windows.
When my scanner went 'kaputt' I just kept copying stuff with my digital camera. Hell even a picture of a mobile phone camera is better than nothing. :D

When my scanner went 'kaputt' I just kept copying stuff with my digital camera. Hell even a picture of a mobile phone camera is better than nothing. :D

Trust me, it isn't worth the effort - the ad is 5 x 7 and only 25% is devoted to the Mits. The balance deals with other AV gear. The pic is against a dark red background and wouldn't show up well in an emailed photo. I'll try to get some info later today.

CNET basically told the tale on 8/1 but no one bothered to read it.

You got a link for that? I can't seem to find anything about laservue on cnet.

Cheers

Seggers

You got a link for that? I can't seem to find anything about laservue on cnet.


Sure.

Mitsubishi laser TV to debut this year (01/08) (http://ces.cnet.com/8301-1_1-9845414-67.html)

CNET still firmly believes they will review a LaserVue within this year according to this latest blurb just yesterday: Report: Rear-projection's 60-inch niche (08/25) (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10024552-1.html)


We only expect to review one more, Mitsubishi's ballyhooed laser TV, before year's end. Reader interest seems to be waning considerably for non-flat-panel televisions; I receive very few e-mails from people who want an RPTV reviewed compared with those clamoring for another plasma or LCD. I wouldn't call RPTV "dead" just yet, but it's more of an endangered species than ever. I'll put it this way: I don't expect to review more than a couple of these bulky behemoths in 2009.


I do sincerely hope Mitsubishi manages to breath some more live back into RPTV with the LaserVue... and that it sells good enough in the United States to spin-off an European model real soon after the US release.

RPTV is surviving thanks to larger size, 65 and up, models. As soon as 70" plasmas and LCDs become more affordable , forget about RPTVs. I paid more than 6K for my Mitsubishi 73927 3 years ago and now for the same money I can buy the new 65" plasma from Panasonic (which I actually plan to do). I am VERY skeptical about this laser stuff but I will wait another few weeks .

Sergio

The latest issue of Electronics House (Best Products of the Year Issue) has this little blurb in the middle of the Editors Letter at the beginning of the issue:

"I recently had a demo of Mitsubishi's new offerings, and I feel that both its LaserVue and Integrated Sound Projector are groundbreaking." - Cindy Davis, Editor-in-Chief.

Just realized that not only is there that blurb at the front of the magazine, but the LaserVue is also listed among the products of the year (there's a few products on the list that haven't been released yet). There's a picture of the set and this text (which doesn't have any revelations):

We're not seeing enough color, Mitsubishi says, so the company is out to fix that with new TV technology. The futuristic-sounding LaserVue is based on DLP technology, but is the first laser-powered TV ---- who's beam illumination doubles the color of conventional displays, according to Mitsubishi. Laser technology eliminates the color wheel and lamp, while delivering brightness rated at 500 nits and a 120-Hz refresh rate to go with the improved color. Will be available in 65 and 73 inch sizes. TV depth of about 10 inches. Capable of 3-D viewing experience. Pricing to be announced.

You got a link for that? I can't seem to find anything about laservue on cnet.

Cheers

Seggers

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6897177-1.html#talkback
Rear-projection:

A while back I wrote a column where I stated that rear-projection was on its deathbed. That's still true; and things are only looking even bleaker. Sony has already exited the market, no longer producing its once vaunted SXRD sets. Mitsubishi is trying to hang in there with DLP and Laser TV, but it's facing a real uphill battle (the price for Laser TV needs to be cut in half pretty quickly for it to have any chance). We really liked Samsung's new LED-based DLP line, and if I were taking bets, I'd say it ends up being the only rear-projection survivor.

Sure.

Mitsubishi laser TV to debut this year (01/08) (http://ces.cnet.com/8301-1_1-9845414-67.html)

CNET still firmly believes they will review a LaserVue within this year according to this latest blurb just yesterday: Report: Rear-projection's 60-inch niche (08/25) (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10024552-1.html)



I do sincerely hope Mitsubishi manages to breath some more live back into RPTV with the LaserVue... and that it sells good enough in the United States to spin-off an European model real soon after the US release.


Not the blurb I was speaking of, but fwiw, I know of someone getting one for review within the next week. Guess cnet will have to wait for their review.

Not the blurb I was speaking of, but fwiw, I know of someone getting one for review within the next week. Guess cnet will have to wait for their review.

Man, you can't just leave us hanging like that.... :eek:

Seggers

Originally Posted by Owen
Not as far as I can see, 48 pages and no useful info.CNET basically told the tale on 8/1 but no one bothered to read it.

I bothered to read it, but I don't really see any news there that hasn't already been theorized in this thread. :confused:

I spoke to my local dealer who put out the LaserVue ad. He has no details from Mits and simply has been told he soon will be getting a 65" for display. The original ETA was August - he has no new date.

Amazon just dropped the price of the HL67a750 to 1950.

Damn Mits, just announce the prices already. :mad:

It aint gonna be 1950.

Worst advertising ever Mits!

Signed up for email updates at http://www.believingisseeing.tv/ ages ago and have yet to receive a single email. Not even the June 25th news item. Was there any point? Did anyone else get an email from this mailing list?

I too hope that RPTV doesn't die and am still loving my HL-T6187S purchase decision. Excellent PQ at an excellent price and far less RBE than a Kuro (for me). I just wish people were better educated in all the different HDTV technologies.

I bothered to read it, but I don't really see any news there that hasn't already been theorized in this thread. :confused:

Everything has been theorized in this thread - including that black is blue.

You cannot make a bold matter of fact statement like cnet made without knowing the starting price.

And regardless, it says in no uncertain terms that it is coming out on the high end of the estimates - and anyone thinking differently is dilussional, probably thinking $1 gas will also return.

Until they can make plasmas or lcds with as good PQ and at the same low price, rptv isn't going to be dead. Niche, yes, dead, no.

Worst advertising ever Mits!

Signed up for email updates at http://www.believingisseeing.tv/ ages ago and have yet to receive a single email. Not even the June 25th news item. Was there any point? Did anyone else get an email from this mailing list?

I too hope that RPTV doesn't die and am still loving my HL-T6187S purchase decision. Excellent PQ at an excellent price and far less RBE than a Kuro (for me). I just wish people were better educated in all the different HDTV technologies.

Signed up ages ago for this newsletter and have yet to receive one single email from that mailing list, too. :rolleyes:

You see a RainBowEffect (RBE) on a Kuro (Plasma)? RBE is a problem specific to the DLP technology, you probably saw phosphor lag (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756939) which in turn is a problem specific for Plasmas...


You cannot make a bold matter of fact statement like cnet made without knowing the starting price.

And regardless, it says in no uncertain terms that it is coming out on the high end of the estimates - and anyone thinking differently is dilussional, probably thinking $1 gas will also return.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Someone at CNET clearly seems to know the starting price and it's going to be huge. :eek:

Until they can make plasmas or lcds with as good PQ and at the same low price, rptv isn't going to be dead. Niche, yes, dead, no.
Well RPTV is already dead in Europe. I can't buy one, even though I'd love to get one of these cost efficient monsters.
Maybe RPTV will be resurrected in Europe, but I highly doubt it from what I have read so far.
When the LaserVue is as expensive as now speculated, it will drive the final nail in the RPTV coffin, unless as CNET wrote "price is cut in half" real fast after release.

...Maybe RPTV will be resurrected in Europe, but I highly doubt it ...

The future of RPTV is by no means certain, but one factor in its favor is energy consumption, which is a topic that can only gain in importance. LCD flat-panels 60+ inches typically use over 500 watts, plasmas even more. It's like having a plug-in electric heater running on low. That's not a problem during the heating season, but in hot weather it produces a double energy cost, forcing air conditioners to work harder. From what I gather this may prove more difficult to solve than price differences.

An RPTV resurgence is by no means impossible, but it's not a sure thing. It would probably be a niche market, sold on-line more than in stores.

I still feel that my 3-year old 720p D-ILA is every bit as enjoyable as the latest flat-screens I see in stores, even if it's technical specs don't theoretically match up. But then I am not bothered by depth or lamp replacement.

The future of RPTV is by no means certain, but one factor in its favor is energy consumption, which is a topic that can only gain in importance. LCD flat-panels 60+ inches typically use over 500 watts, plasmas even more. It's like having a plug-in electric heater running on low. That's not a problem during the heating season, but in hot weather it produces a double energy cost, forcing air conditioners to work harder. From what I gather this may prove more difficult to solve than price differences.

An RPTV resurgence is by no means impossible, but it's not a sure thing. It would probably be a niche market, sold on-line more than in stores.

I still feel that my 3-year old 720p D-ILA is every bit as enjoyable as the latest flat-screens I see in stores, even if it's technical specs don't theoretically match up. But then I am not bothered by depth or lamp replacement.


With all due respect, cnet rates 104 HDTV based on power. Only 1 60" LCD is listed with a power consumption of 583 watts, a 58" Plasma @ 442 watts and a 61" RPTV @ 195 watts.

However, the annual difference in cost between those is roughly $100 - $125 a year.

You will pay more than that to replace the bulb in the RPTV.

Furthermore, that bulb will generate much more heat than an LCD that will require additional air conditioning. Most RPTVs have multiple fans in them as well.

If RPTVs had a future, Sony would not have abandoned the market with the type of profit they were making.

I do not disagree that they might look better than all but the best Pioneer Kuros Elite Plasmas, but people have proven time and time again they want something to hang on a wall as opposed to PQ.

Worst advertising ever Mits!

Signed up for email updates at http://www.believingisseeing.tv/ ages ago and have yet to receive a single email. Not even the June 25th news item. Was there any point? Did anyone else get an email from this mailing list?

I too hope that RPTV doesn't die and am still loving my HL-T6187S purchase decision. Excellent PQ at an excellent price and far less RBE than a Kuro (for me). I just wish people were better educated in all the different HDTV technologies.

Signed up, got jack.

Bit like real info on the LV....

Seggers

The idea definitely sounds cool. Not as cool as 3D tv, but having a really sharp picture from a set that will weigh less, use less power with higher color fidelity would fit real nice under my Christmas tree.

I think that no one know what the price is going to be, just like the Samsung Instinct. They knew they were coming into an "iPhone" market and wanted to be competitive. Mitsubishi is looking at what other TVs are priced at, then decided from there.

Since they are behind the laser, they should get a better margin than Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, or JVC - it just depends on how much of that they're willing to forego in order to get it to sell.

Don't forget they have a new line of DLPs coming out (ex. WD-65C8) so they can't play themselves out of the game completely.

However, the annual difference in cost between those is roughly $100 - $125 a year.

You will pay more than that to replace the bulb in the RPTV.

Furthermore, that bulb will generate much more heat than an LCD that will require additional air conditioning. Most RPTVs have multiple fans in them as well.

Hence the reason we're all gathered here in this thread looking at alternate light sources. Not only do you get the benefits of a more focused light source, no color wheel, etc., you're also promoting "green" displays.

If the general public knew the difference in energy consumption they could possibly be swayed. My mom couldn't be happier with the HL61A750 I convinced her to buy. Especially with how much she saved upfront!

I've never understood the enormous fascination there is with current flat panel design, especially when most people don't mount it on a wall. 14.4" depth on current LED DLP models is nowhere near as drastic as CRT RPTV once was. Put it on a stand like most flat panel owners and RPTV looks better IMHO.

With all due respect, cnet rates 104 HDTV based on power. Only 1 60" LCD is listed with a power consumption of 583 watts, a 58" Plasma @ 442 watts and a 61" RPTV @ 195 watts.

However, the annual difference in cost between those is roughly $100 - $125 a year.

You will pay more than that to replace the bulb in the RPTV.

Furthermore, that bulb will generate much more heat than an LCD that will require additional air conditioning. Most RPTVs have multiple fans in them as well.

In actual use, LED based DLP users have reported figures as low as 100 watts or less. It is dependent on the LED setting, which has 5 different settings, plus Auto.

And with the LEDs. there is virtually no heat generated, and no bulb to replace, so they win the power/cost comparison hands down.

Hopefully. Laservue will enjoy the same advantages, and the cost difference will come down in time.

Untill plasma and LCD overcome their own deficiencies, come up with larger sizes, AND come down in price, RPTVs aren't dead. The Samsung LED DLPs are selling quite well, from what I understand. :)

Untill plasma and LCD overcome their own deficiencies, come up with larger sizes, AND come down in price, RPTVs aren't dead. The Samsung LED DLPs are selling quite well, from what I understand. :)

So were the Sony SXRDs.

Originally Posted by BeachComber
However, the annual difference in cost between those is roughly $100 - $125 a year.
If the general public knew the difference in energy consumption they could possibly be swayed.

For most people, I don't think it would be as much of a difference. Using the two extremes that BeachComber posted, (583w compared to 195w), that's a difference of 388w. Personally, I'd be surprised if I average 3hrs of use a day (maybe 6hrs on one day, but many days it never gets turned on). At the $0.08/kw that is typical for my area, that only comes out to $40/year difference. And I tend to watch a lot more TV in the Winter than in the summer, so while the actual cost is higher in the summer due to the additional a/c required to remove the extra heat, in the winter it's practically free. :)

If the Laserview is for real, it better be very cheap. The Panasonic 65PZ850U just hit the street at US$ 5150.00.

If the Laserview is for real, it better be very cheap. The Panasonic 65PZ850U just hit the street at US$ 5150.00.Speaking of same, I just ordered this Panny. :D I am out of the waiting game-- I hope you all get the LaserVue news you are waiting for. Happy hunting!

Speaking of same, I just ordered this Panny. :D I am out of the waiting game-- I hope you all get the LaserVue news you are waiting for. Happy hunting!

Congrats! Very wise decision. I'm just waiting for more info on the stand and price.

Congrats! Very wise decision. I'm just waiting for more info on the stand and price.Thanks, Cleveland Plasma did not have info on the stand yet. It will be a little pricey-- not sure what yet, but I may fabricate one myself. So little of the stand would show anyway, I think I could do a reasonable job without detracting from the esthetics. I think I can build it so I could adjust the vertical height if I needed to, which would be nice.

So were the Sony SXRDs.

Correct. And the bottom line isn't how well a product is selling. The bottom line is the profit margin a company is making. And with prices of the remaining RPTVs around I bet the profit margin is significantly less than it is on LCD/plasma.

Correct. And the bottom line isn't how well a product is selling. The bottom line is the profit margin a company is making. And with prices of the remaining RPTVs around I bet the profit margin is significantly less than it is on LCD/plasma.

Which, of course, is why they need to sell a lot of them--which goes back to my original point--that they're selling a lot of them.

Whether enough to stay viable remains to be seen.

Untill plasma and LCD overcome their own deficiencies, come up with larger sizes, AND come down in price, RPTVs aren't dead. The Samsung LED DLPs are selling quite well, from what I understand. :)
Within 18-24 months Sharp, Samsung and Panny will have brand new plants come on line that will be producing LCD's from motherglass that economically will enable LARGE cuts and will be Ultra Thin and Light. Example is Samsung will be able to cut six 70" panels from one sheet which is not possible presently and Sharp will have the same capability to stay with 65" or greater and you have about six Manufacturers that will be rebadging those big boys in their partnerships.

SXRD and other RPTV's did not get phased out because it's not excellent but instead for Sony anyways and others the process of building LCD and PDP is much more automated. Sony stated it took twice as many people and components to build a RPTV and even after transferring SXRD to Mexico at one seventh the wage factor they still chose to dispose and go LCD due to the automation and Bravia LCD success.

If this Laser doesn't deliver as hoped for there may the demise of RPTV in 2010 when these new plants come on line with true HT sizes at reduced prices and light weight and thin and OLED in large sizes within 3-5 years from those plants. :)

That's good news.

I hold no brief for any particular form factor. I just want high quality, BIG, and cheap! (Don't we all?).

For now my new Sammy 67" LED DLP fits the bill as well as can be expected. That is not faint praise, BTW, I love the set.

But if size and quality keep going up, and prices keep coming down, we'll all come out for the better. :)

Within 18-24 months Sharp, Samsung and Panny will have brand new plants come on line that will be producing LCD's from motherglass that economically will enable LARGE cuts and will be Ultra Thin and Light. ...

Agree that this is a potentially significant development but there are IFs. IF Sharp can reduce banding, Sony reduce sparkles, Samsung dead pixels, and IF the power consumption and price gaps over 52 inch sets can be substantially reduced, and IF motion judder continues to improve, then yes we have the future dominant technology, at least for the next decade until something even better arrives.

I'm already envisioning what my living room would look like with a 60 inch flat-panel where my current 52 inch D-ILA sits. Intriguing thought, but the old gal still looks real sweet so I can wait. Life is interesting.

Speaking of same, I just ordered this Panny. :D I am out of the waiting game-- I hope you all get the LaserVue news you are waiting for. Happy hunting!

Well, darn, you would have been much, much wiser and greener having had ordered a Samsung 67" LED DLP, instead.

Correct. And the bottom line isn't how well a product is selling. The bottom line is the profit margin a company is making. And with prices of the remaining RPTVs around I bet the profit margin is significantly less than it is on LCD/plasma.

Actually that is incorrect, if you read the tech trades you know the lcd price wars are cut throat and very few a making a profit.

As its very clear to many now (except those who are in constant denial) the SXRD was taken off the market because they could not get the OB stability assured. They WERE selling a number of units and making a good profit - but they closed the line before they even recouped the cost of development of the A3000 and Z70XBR5. That is akin to building a building, having it leased out to capacity - and on opening day, decided to not open it and tear it down. That only happens for a "show stopper" of an event - such as finding the building was made of defective material and may collapse - causing incredible cost down the line - or in the case of Sony, continued OB issues that cannot be fixed that will cost you thousands per unit produced over time, but not a discussion for this thread.

If there is a laser issue - whether output or life expectancy - Mitsubishi has to has make some hard decisions - because they have their own SXRD/OB issue with the Light Engines that is turning into a nightmare and HEAVY expense for them.

Well, darn, you would have been much, much wiser and greener having had ordered a Samsung 67" LED DLP, instead.To each his own. Wiser? Wiser is really up to the purchaser in the end-- we're talking about TVs here, and high end TVs to boot-- not adding that extra layer of insulation in the attic or choosing a Civic over a Hummer. For the number of hours per day my set will be on, there's not a big delta in operating costs. I understand the differences very well, and I spend several hours looking at the Samsung DLP. I have owned a Mits DLP (well, now the TV repairman has had it for 2 months), so I "was" a believer in RPTVs. I waited patiently (well, at least patiently for a TV-less person used to a 62" set) for the Mits. LaserVue to come out, or even be more concretely announced. In the end, with every week that went by with no news, I became convinced that I wanted no part of a first generation technology solution again, from a manufacturer that has already created DLPs with a life expectancy of about 3 years. That would have meant another 6-12 months of waiting for all the issues to be wrung out.

If I only had the budget for the Sammy, I think it would have been the best option. It's a great set. I had the funds available for the Panny. I think it's one of the best options in that price range.

I respect everyone that makes their individual choices when selecting Home Theater equipment. These are luxury items, and this entire AVS Forum proves that there is no one right choice for anyone-- lots of great products out there. Enjoy your Sammys, Pannys or LasrVues; I'm looking forward to hearing about everyone's experiences.

http://www.wigix.com/index.php/item/detail/1127694/Mitsubishi-DLP-Rear-Projection-TV---73--LaserVue-True-Dimension-Experience

I think they are just guesstimating the price.

http://www.wigix.com/index.php/item/detail/1127694/Mitsubishi-DLP-Rear-Projection-TV---73--LaserVue-True-Dimension-Experience

I think they are just guesstimating the price.

that a safe bet, because anyone in marketing knows you set the price at $4,999.00, not $5,000.00 at that crosses a psychological barrier.

http://www.wigix.com/index.php/item/detail/1127694/Mitsubishi-DLP-Rear-Projection-TV---73--LaserVue-True-Dimension-Experience

I think they are just guesstimating the price.

That says " Power Consumption: 200W ". I though the LAserVue sets were supposed to use less power?

That says " Power Consumption: 200W ". I though the LAserVue sets were supposed to use less power?

I think that page has A LOT of speculation on it. Notice the use of "approximate" for things like viewing angle and depth.

Also, 500 cd/m2 is 145 fL if I did the math correctly, which no one would want.

Also, 200% NTSC Color Gamut? NTSC uses REC 601 - not REC 709 which is used for ATSC/HDTV.

So I would view that page with a grain of salt.

Congrats! Very wise decision. I'm just waiting for more info on the stand and price.
Just received note from Mits regarding Laservue.

"Thank you for contacting Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc.
We are pleased to be able to assist our customers via our website. Here
is the information that you have requested:

At this time we don't have any information as to when specifically the
Laservue would be out in the market but it should be towards the end of
the year."

Vaporvue...

Just received note from Mits regarding Laservue.

"Thank you for contacting Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc.
We are pleased to be able to assist our customers via our website. Here
is the information that you have requested:

At this time we don't have any information as to when specifically the
Laservue would be out in the market but it should be towards the end of
the year."

WOW! They have been touting 3rd quarter, now end of the year. This is getting to sound more and more like exit stage left!:mad:

As its very clear to many now (except those who are in constant denial) the SXRD was taken off the market because they could not get the OB stability assured. They WERE selling a number of units and making a good profit - but they closed the line before they even recouped the cost of development of the A3000 and Z70XBR5. That is akin to building a building, having it leased out to capacity - and on opening day, decided to not open it and tear it down. That only happens for a "show stopper" of an event - such as finding the building was made of defective material and may collapse - causing incredible cost down the line - or in the case of Sony, continued OB issues that cannot be fixed that will cost you thousands per unit produced over time, but not a discussion for this thread.I'm not saying you couldn't be correct, but the optical block in the TVs isn't very different from the ones they're using in their projectors, that they're still making and those don't seem to be plagued by problems, so it seems the answer might be elsewhere.

I'm not saying you couldn't be correct, but the optical block in the TVs isn't very different from the ones they're using in their projectors, that they're still making and those don't seem to be plagued by problems, so it seems the answer might be elsewhere.

Cool..

Now I don't have to sound ignorant and ask what OB stands for...:D

Cool..

Now I don't have to sound ignorant and ask what OB stands for...:D

On Board?

I'm not saying you couldn't be correct, but the optical block in the TVs isn't very different from the ones they're using in their projectors, that they're still making and those don't seem to be plagued by problems, so it seems the answer might be elsewhere.

I'm not sure that *all* Sony RP sets have OB issues. I don't rememebr if mine falls in the SXRD clan or not, but so far the only thing I've replaced is the bulb.

And I didn't have to do that either.

Seggers

WOW! They have been touting 3rd quarter, now end of the year. This is getting to sound more and more like exit stage left!:mad:

by the end of the year, the 65" Panny plasma may (will?) drop below $5000, making the laservue an even tougher sell.

every week that passes by makes laservue less viable :(

On Board?


I am now. :cool:

On my way home from work today, I stopped by a furniture store called Linder's. They sell TV's also. Mostly Mitsubishi. I went in originally looking for the LED DLP Samsung. The Manager called his buyer to see if Mitsubishi carried any LED DLP televisions since they specialize in Mitsubishi and didn't want me going with Samsung. (I already knew Mitsubishi doesn't have LED DLP's).

Instead of letting me leave, the buyer told the Manager that I should wait since Mitsubishi is close to releasing the LaserVue. Manager says they will get information in 2 weeks and have them available to sell in 3.

Now I don't know how reliable this information is, but they were even able to give me a model number. Long story short, I jotted down my information and they said they would call me when the sets arrive.

Think they're full of it?

On my way home from work today, I stopped by a furniture store called Linder's. They sell TV's also. Mostly Mitsubishi. I went in originally looking for the LED DLP Samsung. The Manager called his buyer to see if Mitsubishi carried any LED DLP televisions since they specialize in Mitsubishi and didn't want me going with Samsung. (I already knew Mitsubishi doesn't have LED DLP's).

Instead of letting me leave, the buyer told the Manager that I should wait since Mitsubishi is close to releasing the LaserVue. Manager says they will get information in 2 weeks and have them available to sell in 3.

Now I don't know how reliable this information is, but they were even able to give me a model number. Long story short, I jotted down my information and they said they would call me when the sets arrive.

Think they're full of it?


Completely!

Laservue is dead! Nothing released yet & it's already going to be Sept.

I agree, unfortunately.

Even if it ever comes out, it will truly have to be "All that" to be worth the very high price.

I'll give it another week 'til CEDIA before I decide to hang up my hat on the laservue bandwagon. I've been waiting for this tech for about two years now and it goes dead I'll be waiting for the 10G Kuros with the ECC.

Cool..

Now I don't have to sound ignorant and ask what OB stands for...:D

Optical Block.

I don't know how different it is or isn't, but the OB failue is caused by heat over time. Perhaps the Projectors have more vents?

I'm not sure that *all* Sony RP sets have OB issues. I don't rememebr if mine falls in the SXRD clan or not, but so far the only thing I've replaced is the bulb.

And I didn't have to do that either.

Seggers


I believe all SXRD RPTVs will have the issue considering what we have seen - and yes, I have an SXRD. Not easy to miss if you have one as SXRD is written all over it.

WOW! They have been touting 3rd quarter, now end of the year. This is getting to sound more and more like exit stage left!:mad:

I would agree with you and my mind still tells me that - this is IDENTICAL to the Sony Z70XBR5 SXRD timeline - however, the only thing that makes me believe that it might be different is the fact that a reviewer is supposed to get one in days.

The Z70XBR5 never got to reviewers - though displayed at all the shows and CEDIA - with the exact rollout dates - that came and went.

Even if it does come out, I will freely admit given the Mitsubishi issues of the past 12-24 months, I will still be skeptical about the unit.

I believe all SXRD RPTVs will have the issue considering what we have seen - and yes, I have an SXRD. Not easy to miss if you have one as SXRD is written all over it.

Then I'm lucky. All mine has is Sony, HDTV and Wega.

So there'll be no OB issues for me then... :D

Seggers

Then I'm lucky. All mine has is Sony, HDTV and Wega.

So there'll be no OB issues for me then... :D

Seggers

You're probably right, but your statement seems a little broad. Not to rain on your parade, but just because the "green glob" looks like an SXRD problem doesn't mean that other RPTV's are immune to optical block problems. Your KDF-60XS955's optical block can develop the "blue dot/star" problem (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=KDF60WF655&news_id=206), for example.

You're probably right, but your statement seems a little broad. Not to rain on your parade, but just because the "green glob" looks like an SXRD problem doesn't mean that other RPTV's are immune to optical block problems. Your KDF-60XS955's optical block can develop the "blue dot/star" problem (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=KDF60WF655&news_id=206), for example.

I was generalizing in the same way that others on here were.

The assertation, or so it seemed to me, was that any Sony RP unit was going to contract the dreaded OB issue, and thus should all be trashed now to save mankind as we know it.

I was relieved to find out mine wasn't one of the SXRD Clan and thus was *less* likely to contract it.

For the blue star effect, I'm on the KDF60xs955 board and have seen many others with said issue. To the point that Sony extended the warranty for those through until about the end of this year.

Mine has been rock solid and I hope it will remain that way.

Seggers

On my way home from work today, I stopped by a furniture store called Linder's. They sell TV's also. Mostly Mitsubishi. I went in originally looking for the LED DLP Samsung. The Manager called his buyer to see if Mitsubishi carried any LED DLP televisions since they specialize in Mitsubishi and didn't want me going with Samsung. (I already knew Mitsubishi doesn't have LED DLP's).

Instead of letting me leave, the buyer told the Manager that I should wait since Mitsubishi is close to releasing the LaserVue. Manager says they will get information in 2 weeks and have them available to sell in 3.

Now I don't know how reliable this information is, but they were even able to give me a model number. Long story short, I jotted down my information and they said they would call me when the sets arrive.

Think they're full of it?

If they are a Diamond Mitsubishi dealer I'd say there is a very remote basis to place hope with this. If they aren't, they are dreaming. If nothing at CEDIA we'll know the Laservue has serious issues.

Linders furniture in Southern Cal is a disreputable vender of mostly furniture. I bought from them once and it was a waste of time. They would not know the truth about what day it is.

For what it's worth, the Magnolia manager at my local BB said he will have them in the store by the end of Sept.

Originally posted by sixfoot:
For what it's worth, the Magnolia manager at my local BB said he will have them in the store by the end of Sept.

I will believe it if they show a final product and give a price at CEDIA. Otherwise it's going down in history as a great concept.

For about a year now the concrete information for this set is always 1-2 weeks away. In 6 months come back, and there will be a a least one post about a possible price and date speculation, and they talked to someone on "the inside" that more info is only a few weeks away. The odds of this TV actually seeing the light of day are decreasing daily.

A salesman at Fry's told me - 3 weeks - and they'll have the Laservue.

And yes, I know.

I know.