I know those players don't exist yet, so those are just placeholder names for the flagship, low end, mid end, high end players respectively. Anyway, the 3rd gen players came out just now (Oct/Nov 2007), but there was only an 8 month difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2 (April 2006 - Q4 2006) and only a 10 month difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 3 players. Anybody want to predict when those will be out?

The XA3 will be out sometime between March and June 2008 that is all I've heard from guys who have met with Toshiba store reps. The true 4th gen probably will be late summer or even another whole year away.

I wouls really like to get one more 1080P HD DVD player. Odds on a new offering from HD DVD backers or go with an A35 or XA2?

Have an XA2 now and it's great.

They were suppose to showcase a 4th gen player at CES but it never happened.

No way. Toshiba will be hitting the breaks on R&D and production. Remember there are still 10s of thousands of HD DVD players still in the pipe line that must be disposed of (at least they can be marketed as DVD players) so you will see at least token support for this.

So much for a HD_DVD dvr :(

Wait on the A35 till any firesale and you'll get a fantastic deal

No way. Toshiba will be hitting the breaks on R&D and production. Remember there are still 10s of thousands of HD DVD players still in the pipe line that must be disposed of (at least they can be marketed as DVD players) so you will see at least token support for this.

Do you know something that the press does not? Did Toshiba make an annoucement that I somehow missed?

Do you know something that the press does not? Did Toshiba make an annoucement that I somehow missed?

Yeah, but that's the garbage you keep reading from overhyped Blu-Ray fans. No facts, only hopes and speculation but presented as facts.. Sigh

Yeah, but that's the garbage you keep reading from overhyped Blu-Ray fans. No facts, only hopes and speculation but presented as facts.. Sigh

The facts are that Toshiba canceled their press conference and didn't show any new HD DVD players at CES.

Toshiba didn't have any new HD DVD player at CES. If that doesn't say anything to you, I don't think you understand how this industry works.

Do you believe that if you say it's only speculation enough times, it will remain that way forever? Because as we saw on Friday, "speculation" only stays that way for a couple of weeks.

The facts are that Toshiba canceled their press conference and didn't show any new HD DVD players at CES.

Toshiba didn't have any new HD DVD player at CES. If that doesn't say anything to you, I don't think you understand how this industry works.

Why would they have 4th gen players 3/4 months after introducing the 3rd gen ???

I've always owned Macs, and Apple doesn't show new macs each time there's an Apple expo...:rolleyes:

Other companies were showcasing players that will be out in mid to late 2008. If Toshiba was planning to release a 4th gen player in 2008 it seems like they should have had a prototype or info available like all the other CE companies have had with their BD players.

Does this mean Toshiba won't have 4th gen players? N0, but it makes it very unlikely in my opinion.

I would take the advise of one of the other posters and pick up a second 3rd gen player when they start selling for next to nothing.

Yeah, but that's the garbage you keep reading from overhyped Blu-Ray fans. No facts, only hopes and speculation but presented as facts.. Sigh

I think it is pretty clear at this point the HD DVD is dead, and I am no Blu Ray fanboy. I didn't care who won, but at this point it is clear that Blu Ray won.

I believe the next Toshiba offering will be their line of Blu-Ray players!
Seriously. END.

We need input from a Toshiba insider!:)

Toshiba offers the $199 BR 2.0 player with a $100 rebate to all registered HD DVD owners
:p:p:p
Undercutting Sony is FUN

Toshiba only announced the A20 at CES 2007.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/30626/113/

The third generation line wasn't announced until August 6th.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/385

So I don't find it surprising that they haven't announced any new players.

I DO find it surprising that NONE of the rumored Chinese players have been announced or shown at all.

Going to CES with no hardware to announce is bad enough. With all of the new 1.1 and 2.0 BD models that have been announced, CES would have been heavily dominated by Blu-ray even without the Warner announcement.

No way they'd want to invest in yet another player when they have thousands unclaimed on store shelves and the light at the end of their tunnel appears to be a trainload of Blu machines....

Toshiba offers the $199 BR 2.0 player with a $100 rebate to all registered HD DVD owners
:p:p:p
Undercutting Sony is FUN


From your mouth to Toshiba's ear :D

I would be shocked to see Gen 4 players at this point in time. I think HD DVD is going to be a hard sell for major retailers...

its obvious by some of these posts that these fanboys are only here to bash hd-dvd. One poster stated that toshiba cancelled its CES show... Oh really then wtf have i been looking at on numerous sites about its new qosmio line with built in hd-dvd+r drives or its new 20 lcd televisions with its slim bezels? the simple fact is that the HD DVD Promo Group postponed its presentation after warners announcement...not toshiba.

And just today paramount and MS repeated their continued support for hd-dvd so we know that its still going to be around for at least 2009.

its obvious by some of these posts that these fanboys are only here to bash hd-dvd. One poster stated that toshiba cancelled its CES show... Oh really then wtf have i been looking at on numerous sites about its new qosmio line with built in hd-dvd+r drives or its new 20 lcd televisions with its slim bezels? the simple fact is that the HD DVD Promo Group postponed its presentation after warners announcement...not toshiba.

And just today paramount and MS repeated their continued support for hd-dvd so we know that its still going to be around for at least 2009.


Link Please concerning the continued support by MS and Paramount

Don't waste your money on A3X too many problems error codes etc. I think Toshiba was practicing to make Blu players.

Get another XA2

Wait on the A35 till any firesale and you'll get a fantastic deal

That is what I am doing. Though I got the A2 at Walmart price I would like to get an A35 or XA2 once a find "Super Sale".

Toshiba only announced the A20 at CES 2007.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/30626/113/

The third generation line wasn't announced until August 6th.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/385

So I don't find it surprising that they haven't announced any new players.

I DO find it surprising that NONE of the rumored Chinese players have been announced or shown at all.

Going to CES with no hardware to announce is bad enough. With all of the new 1.1 and 2.0 BD models that have been announced, CES would have been heavily dominated by Blu-ray even without the Warner announcement.

The Toshiba A3/Venturer *MAY* be the Alco SHD-7000 announced at CES 2007 but under a different nameplate.

The Shinco HD A100 and the Lite On HDP-Z1 also mentioned there have never materialized.

The only standalone player that plays HD DVD's announced at this show is the new Samsung dual format player.

So I don't find it surprising that they haven't announced any new players.

I DO find it surprising that NONE of the rumored Chinese players have been announced or shown at all.

Going to CES with no hardware to announce is bad enough. With all of the new 1.1 and 2.0 BD models that have been announced, CES would have been heavily dominated by Blu-ray even without the Warner announcement.


Given the format is less than 2 years old and there have been 3 generations already, I am surprised that Toshiba didn't announce anything new. I am not surprised that no one else did (except for the DF Samsung). It is hard to compete with Toshiba on price and no one else has tried to.

I hope Toshiba releases a combo player soon. Then it would be Toshiba, Samsung, and LG making combo players. I will probably not buy any more HD DVD movies, but it would be nice to get new players to play what I have. Pioneer still makes a LD/DVD combo player, btw.

yea i really dont think there will be any more hd dvd players there will be many more combo format players from Toshiba

I will buy another XA2 -- if I find a good deal

I just updated to 2.7 firmware to do bitstream as I go a receiver this weekend that does the need audio - trueHD, DTS-HD etc.

sounds really good..............

a combo player with the quality of the XA2 would also be a sweet box..

especially with sacd and dvda playback

:-)

especially with sacd and dvda playback

:-)

Wouldn't that be a perfect beast!:)

well G3 wasn't much of a step up from G1 and G2 so I would hope they weren't planning on showing any G4 models yet. They should really be working on trying to implement HDi in to BD 3.0 I guess.

The XA3 will be out sometime between March and June 2008 that is all I've heard from guys who have met with Toshiba store reps. The true 4th gen probably will be late summer or even another whole year away.


If the XA3 is suppose to be out in March 2008 why wouldn't it be shown at CES?

Something strange about no new players being announced at CES by Toshiba.

I think we will only see the models of A4/A40/A45 is if they play Blu-Ray discs (maybe in conjunction with vintage HD DVD's).

I believe the next Toshiba offering will be their line of Blu-Ray players!
Seriously. END.

I agree. The next model lineup from Toshiba will be Blu-Ray. If we are lucky, maybe, just maybe, they will play vintage HD DVD discs too.

Something strange about no new players being announced at CES by Toshiba.

Maybe because there wont be any new movies to play on it by the time its released?

I am really hoping they do a dual format player, I just got into hd dvd and am not as heavily invested as others and I still believe it is a superior technology, looking at how excited about the announcement of the blu 2.0 spec when hd dvd has had this all along.
I can handle legacy support for my current collection. I can't see blu ray doing anything extra special with my hd dvd disc of batman begins than what I have now. I want repurchase the same titles on blu. Warner basically when the 1.1 or 2.0 spec is in full swing might change it up some but nothing to warrant another purchase.

i would not expect them to announce them so soon even though it's CES....but at this point i highly doubt toshiba would want to introduce or release/invest in a new generation of players for a struggling format.

Goggle HD-DVD....you'll find all kinds of press releases from Toshiba saying they are going to talk with their remaining studios and figure out what the next step is going to be.

What are the next steps?

1. Improve the format and make it cheaper and cheaper to manufacture.

2. Keep your remaining movie studios...convince somebody to go neutral. Promote alternative uses...ie Concert discs in Loseless audio ect.

3. Have a rollout of a combo player...the war is lost. Now it's time to be realistic and start making money. Be the first to make a truly bad to the bone (but still yet afordable) combo player. Beat Sony at their own game. You can't beat them, join them.

4. HD-DVD as a movie media is basically over...but that doesn't mean home movies from movie cameras is over. It doesn't mean HD-DVD concerts can't be the choosen and preferred format. There are plenty of other uses that can be implemented for this format...it's just time for Toshiba to start up with PLAN B/C.

I, for one, was really looking forward to a new player announcement - the strong rumors regarding the XA3 with full audio codec support (internal DTS-HD(MA) decoding and output via HDMI and 7.1 analog, etc) and faster operating system seemed incontrovertible.

While I have no real information on what Toshiba was going to show at CES, if anything, as an avid CE industry follower, I was sure they were going to announce the player that finally does all the things the excellent XA2 left wanting. I hope they make a positive announcement soon.

Toshiba offers the $199 BR 2.0 player with a $100 rebate to all registered HD DVD owners
:p:p:p
Undercutting Sony is FUN

I'm seriously considering the new Samsung dual format player! Besides, Toshiba is probably making more selling the Cell Processor in the Sony PS3 than on the A3.

My A2 and I will not be parting company. A bargain backup A2/A3 would be tempting. IMO there will not be any low cost BD players this year. If you are the only game in town why give away anything?

I believe the affect on normal consumers (the other 98%, not us) will be minimal over the next year unless Sony mounts an advertising blitz which claims the absolute and immediate death of HD DVD. Would they do that?

IMHO I don't see any likelihood that there will be any new dual players and the dual players already announced and released will disappear. Either HD DVD is dead or it isn't!

G4 with Super Upconvertion like this ?

http://www.letitwave.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=39&Itemid=66

I'd consider replacing my A2 with a well priced XA3, even if I never buy another HD DVD. I still have a ton of DVD's and around 50 HD DVD's. It'd stay plenty busy!

I think we will only see the models of A4/A40/A45 is if they play Blu-Ray discs (maybe in conjunction with vintage HD DVD's).

That would be sweet.:D
It would soften the hurt abit if there was a player that would play both formats with the Toshiba name on it.
That is if we do indeed have to go Blu.:p;)

About the same chance we'll see a new season of The Anna Nicole Show.

Oh I guess you haven't heard that Elvis and Nicole will be doing a special together.:eek:

Don't waste your money on A3X too many problems error codes etc. I think Toshiba was practicing to make Blu players.

Get another XA2


+1

I know those players don't exist yet, so those are just placeholder names for the flagship, low end, mid end, high end players respectively. Anyway, the 3rd gen players came out just now (Oct/Nov 2007), but there was only an 8 month difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2 (April 2006 - Q4 2006) and only a 10 month difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 3 players. Anybody want to predict when those will be out?


There will be no fourth gen Toshiba players.

There will be no fourth gen Toshiba players.

Your opinion or do you have some inside scoop?:)

G4 with Super Upconvertion like this ?

http://www.letitwave.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=39&Itemid=66

That would be very nice...

Mac

4th gen players will probably be announced in July or August. It depends when they switch over from current 3rd generation player production which is ongoing and how fast 3rd generation players sell at the new $149 HD A3 price points.

Toshiba is committed to HD DVD player production through 2008 and is in development now of successor designs.

Your opinion or do you have some inside scoop?:)
Just wishful thinking and FUD.

Toshiba and HD DVD PRG people at CES confirmed to me that 4th gen players besides the HD XA3 were in develoment and that 3rd generation production was continuing.

Toshiba's 2008 plan is to sell as many players as they can before the end of the year and create an installed base of hardware that cannot be ignored by the studios.

G4 with Super Upconvertion like this ? http://www.letitwave.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=39&Itemid=66We actually looked at buying that company, but opted for the VXP group from Gennum instead.

its obvious by some of these posts that these fanboys are only here to bash hd-dvd. One poster stated that toshiba cancelled its CES show... Oh really then wtf have i been looking at on numerous sites about its new qosmio line with built in hd-dvd+r drives or its new 20 lcd televisions with its slim bezels? the simple fact is that the HD DVD Promo Group postponed its presentation after warners announcement...not toshiba.

And just today paramount and MS repeated their continued support for hd-dvd so we know that its still going to be around for at least 2009.

2009 is about all it needs...2009 probably start getting info on the xbox3...with built in hd dvd...once word of that is out hd dvd is here to stay.

4th gen players will probably be announced in July or August. It depends when they switch over from current 3rd generation player production which is ongoing and how fast 3rd generation players sell at the new $149 HD A3 price points.

Toshiba is committed to HD DVD player production through 2008 and is in development now of successor designs.

seems to jive with what Robert said.
Toshiba had no plans to show any 4th gen player at CES. Not sure what the time frame will be, but the next generation will do a great job on up-conversion and just do a frame rate conversion when outputting 1080p at 60fps.

-Robert

as i remember it, it was July-August when they fully revealed the 3rd gen, and there was FUD being spread then about no new gen coming and Toshiba was dropping out.

2009 is about all it needs...2009 probably start getting info on the xbox3...with built in hd dvd...once word of that is out hd dvd is here to stay.

This made me laugh out loud for real.

Wait...

You're being serious??

Does anyone remember the much fabled Microsoft and Broadcom System-on-a-chip for HD-DVD players that we were all supposed to see in a torrent of new "cheap" HD-DVD players sometime last June or so?

They were suppose to showcase a 4th gen player at CES but it never happened.
Is this a rumor? Insiders denied that any 4th gen model was about to be presented at CES.

Does anyone remember the much fabled Microsoft and Broadcom System-on-a-chip for HD-DVD players that we were all supposed to see in a torrent of new "cheap" HD-DVD players sometime last June or so?

:rolleyes:

Does anyone remember the much fabled Microsoft and Broadcom System-on-a-chip for HD-DVD players that we were all supposed to see in a torrent of new "cheap" HD-DVD players sometime last June or so?
I think this solution is aplicable on HD-DVD China

We actually looked at buying that company, but opted for the VXP group from Gennum instead.

Seens very nice :

http://www.gennum.com/video/technology/vxp/

The third gen only debuted in Sep/Oct, so I really don't see why people assume Toshiba was going to show off newer stuff just a few months later. Not a good selling strategy...you might as well tell people to just hold off on buying until gen 4 is released. Notice Steve Jobs did not debut a shiny new iPhone 2.0 at MacWorld b/c it would crap all over the sales of existing 1.0 stock.

I think that Toshiba gave us some hints at CES and with their new marketing focus after the WB decission.

I think they will try one more HD DVD solution. It will probably be based on the cell processor and marketed mostly as a super up-resolution player with the ability to play HD DVD.

If this is the case, it should be interesting. It should do a pretty good job at making real 1080x1440 video from DVD resolution. It should also take sub optimal HD DVD transfers and make them look like good ones. Third, and this will drive purists crazy, it should have the ability to take films that were intentionally filmed with grain and convert them into pristine grain free video.

I am still hopefull that they will give up high resolution divx support and video download services.

Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda
Does anyone remember the much fabled Microsoft and Broadcom System-on-a-chip for HD-DVD players that we were all supposed to see in a torrent of new "cheap" HD-DVD players sometime last June or so?The Venturer and HD A3 are probably based on this reference design as well as several of the HD DVD China players now in development. Successor reference designs that can be licensed are also being shown around.

I think they will try one more HD DVD solution. It will probably be based on the cell processor and marketed mostly as a super up-resolution player with the ability to play HD DVD.

The Cell processor?!? Isn't that both a) Overkill and b) way too expensive?

I agree with the rest of your statement, just not the cell part. But hey, if Tosh is willing to take a PS3-sized bath on that hardware, I'd love to have a cell-powered gen 4 HD DVD player on the cheap!

I wonder how this all would have panned out if Microsoft had placed an HD DVD drive in the XBOX 360 from the start. Granted, commercial drives weren't ready then, but I wonder how big a difference it would've made...

^
XBOX 360 would be in 4th place in the console war. Oh wait, that's PS3's situation ;)

I think that Toshiba gave us some hints at CES and with their new marketing focus after the WB decission.

I think they will try one more HD DVD solution. It will probably be based on the cell processor and marketed mostly as a super up-resolution player with the ability to play HD DVD.

If this is the case, it should be interesting. It should do a pretty good job at making real 1080x1440 video from DVD resolution. It should also take sub optimal HD DVD transfers and make them look like good ones. Third, and this will drive purists crazy, it should have the ability to take films that were intentionally filmed with grain and convert them into pristine grain free video.

I am still hopefull that they will give up high resolution divx support and video download services.

The could do a four-frame up-convert, like IMAX does with their DMR system to derive more 'real' information from the SD source instead of just upconverting it to a higher res.

4th gen players will probably be announced in July or August. It depends when they switch over from current 3rd generation player production which is ongoing and how fast 3rd generation players sell at the new $149 HD A3 price points.

Toshiba is committed to HD DVD player production through 2008 and is in development now of successor designs.

Great to know! I hedged my bets by picking up an addional XA2 and my first
A35. Both to remain boxed until ones in my current set ups go TU!

I would still like an "XA3" if one was produced!:)

New players, no movies to play it on. Just a thought... At least laserdiscs and records have a fan base, this format won't.

New players, no movies to play it on. Just a thought... At least laserdiscs and records have a fan base, this format won't.

I think HD DVD will have a fan base, and as long as Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks keep releasing movies, many current owners will continue to buy. I have a fair sized collection of HD DVD that I want to be able watch for many years to come...but of course I still have Laserdics, SACD's, UMD movies, DVD-A disks and vinyl!:)

Yeah, but that's the garbage you keep reading from overhyped Blu-Ray fans. No facts, only hopes and speculation but presented as facts.. Sigh


Your right, but lets face reality, Toshiba is not stupid, they are not going to continue RD on a any product when they have less than 25% of the entire content for that market. It really is as simple as that, HD DVD will live on for a short time based on whats out there already, and that's pretty much it.

The Cell processor?!? Isn't that both a) Overkill and b) way too expensive?

I agree with the rest of your statement, just not the cell part. But hey, if Tosh is willing to take a PS3-sized bath on that hardware, I'd love to have a cell-powered gen 4 HD DVD player on the cheap!

Toshiba bought the cell production plant and has developed a less expensive cell processor for just this purpose. It uses fewer cells and runs slower than a PS3 but is supposed to be much less expensive to produce.

EDIT

This would not be a PS3 class processor. It is just a video coprocesser. It is slower, has fewer cells and uses less expensive materials. On the plus side, in addition to being much less expensive, it only uses 10-20 watts.

I don't have many HD DVDs but I have hundreds of DVDs. I would buy one just for DVD playback and would feel much more comfortable buying more HD DVDs.

The could do a four-frame up-convert, like IMAX does with their DMR system to derive more 'real' information from the SD source instead of just upconverting it to a higher res.


That is what they are talking about. They call it super upconversion but what they are talking about is super resolution processing. More real information in each frame derived from other frames in the video.

Your right, but lets face reality, Toshiba is not stupid, they are not going to continue RD on a any product when they have less than 25% of the entire content for that market. It really is as simple as that, HD DVD will live on for a short time based on whats out there already, and that's pretty much it.
And the 3rd generation players really weren't that much different in performance than the 2nd Gen players and actually seem to be more problamatic.

If they decided to proceed with a 4th Gen design, it would be in their best interest to go back and do a total re-design with faster load times and assure(fully test) a more fool proof playback quality player because there seems to be way too many reports of playback issues on the 3rd Gen players that weren't present(or as many) on 2nd Gen players.
I mean if you can't even play Bourne or 300 included in the box without issues, something is wrong with the design or there is a serious QA issue.

And the 3rd generation players really weren't that much different in performance than the 2nd Gen players and actually seem to be more problamatic.

If they decided to proceed with a 4th Gen design, it would be in their best interest to go back and do a total re-design with faster load times and assure(fully test) a more fool proof playback quality player because there seems to be way too many reports of playback issues on the 3rd Gen players that weren't present(or as many) on 2nd Gen players.
I mean if you can't even play Bourne or 300 included in the box without issues, something is wrong with the design or there is a serious QA issue.

I take it that a lot of the BD manufacturers should also go back and do a total design and fully test their players to insure no problems with any play back issues like have been reported by most BD players.As far as load times my Panasonic BD10 is just as slow as my XA2 or my A2 and loving both.

I take it that a lot of the BD manufacturers should also go back and do a total design and fully test their players to insure no problems with any play back issues like have been reported by most BD players.As far as load times my Panasonic BD10 is just as slow as my XA2 or my A2 and loving both.

I can't comment if the new Sharp BD player has improved load times and features but the Panasonic BD30 boots up quickly and also allows the disc try to be openned while it's booting. Also outputs bitstream lossless audio, which I use.
The disc load times have also been reduced by at least by a factor of 4x or greater.

These are features/improvements that should be standard from this point forward.


The BD30 boot/load time makes my HD-A20 performance feel like an IBM XT clone loading DOS off a floppy.

I think that Toshiba gave us some hints at CES and with their new marketing focus after the WB decission.

I think they will try one more HD DVD solution. It will probably be based on the cell processor and marketed mostly as a super up-resolution player with the ability to play HD DVD.

If this is the case, it should be interesting. It should do a pretty good job at making real 1080x1440 video from DVD resolution. It should also take sub optimal HD DVD transfers and make them look like good ones. Third, and this will drive purists crazy, it should have the ability to take films that were intentionally filmed with grain and convert them into pristine grain free video.

I am still hopefull that they will give up high resolution divx support and video download services.

'spursengine'?

I would still like an "XA3" if one was produced!:)

Me TOO! :)

...Angelo

The disc load times have also been reduced by at least by a factor of 4x or greater.

What does this mean? How do you reduce something by a generic factor of 4x or greater? What factor are you using?

'spursengine'?

Yes, that is my understanding.

The Cell processor?!? Isn't that both a) Overkill and b) way too expensive?

I agree with the rest of your statement, just not the cell part. But hey, if Tosh is willing to take a PS3-sized bath on that hardware, I'd love to have a cell-powered gen 4 HD DVD player on the cheap!

There was a Toshiba notebook with cell processor in exibithion on CES playing HD-DVD movies and other image processors softwares

What about opening up the firmware of the Toshiba players and allowing the open source community to design new variations of Linux (or Windows or Mac OS) playback and features for each player? I guess an "open source" project for the A2, etc?

Or is that just a retarted idea?

Me TOO! :)

...Angelo

Me three!! :D

The Cell processor?!? Isn't that both a) Overkill and b) way too expensive?

I agree with the rest of your statement, just not the cell part. But hey, if Tosh is willing to take a PS3-sized bath on that hardware, I'd love to have a cell-powered gen 4 HD DVD player on the cheap!

Why would you need a cell processor... for what? That is way overkill. And exactly what benefit would it serve? The issues that need addressing are loading and response times. This is more than likely a memory lag problem than a processor problem. The original toshiba used a 2.4 P4. I think it would be more cost effective to just upgrade it to a dual core AMD or Intel and use better memory.

The last thing Toshiba needs to do is start jacking up the prices now. I say just let the technology eat itself cheaper before the 4th gen.

Does it play the movie? Yes... so there is no reason at this point to go crazy with an upgrade that will pump prices back up.

And besides, the player is only what? 4 months old. The reason BR is going onto a 3rd is that they are still pumping out unfinished specs. Let them catch up and bring your own player costs further down before goiong to a 4th gen.

What about opening up the firmware of the Toshiba players and allowing the open source community to design new variations of Linux (or Windows or Mac OS) playback and features for each player? I guess an "open source" project for the A2, etc?

Or is that just a retarted idea?

This will open up a can of worms with non-compatibility issues.

I think HD DVD will have a fan base, and as long as Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks keep releasing movies, many current owners will continue to buy. I have a fair sized collection of HD DVD that I want to be able watch for many years to come...but of course I still have Laserdics, SACD's, UMD movies, DVD-A disks and vinyl!:)
Laserdiscs and vinyl had more studio support than hd dvd. Once again how do you survive without studio support? Thats like having a grocery store without food in it.:eek:

You realize that Toshiba makes all the cells right? I am sure they have a huge pile of cells where not enough cores passed QC to put in the PS3 but have 3 or 4 good cores still. I would guess these "throw away" chips would be what they put in the gen 4 HD DVD players and their '08 LCDs.

They were suppose to showcase a 4th gen player at CES but it never happened.

According to?

According to Robert (from Value Electronics, he's considered an "Insider") Toshiba did NOT have plans to show their 4th generation products at CES. So, unless you're willing to pony up some more info, I'm going to have to call 'bunk'.

Sadly, HD-DVD is in the same situation LaserDisc was when it was launched by MCA DiscoVision (Universal Studios) and Magnavox in 1978... You'd better like Paramount and Universal Studio's films, A LOT, if you buy an HD-DVD player now, cos', basically, that's all you can get - and not much from either at that!

Even sadder is the fact that while lack of studio support was understandable when LaserDisc was launched, (it was new and would expand) - 2 years into HD-DVD, we shouldn't be seeing a REDUCTION in studio's supporting the format - and I highly, highly doubt major studio support will be expanding for HD-DVD. It saddens me to say it too, because I really love the HD-DVD format - like LaserDisc love it. I was really hoping it would be the 'winner' in the so-called 'format-wars', but I can't even imagine, in my wildest dreams, that HD-DVD will overcome the obstacles it is facing now.

I can't even imagine what is happing deep within Toshiba right now.

Laserdiscs and vinyl had more studio support than hd dvd. Once again how do you survive without studio support? Thats like having a grocery store without food in it.:eek:

I thought they were toast a week ago.

Now, I think they have one shot. They have to release a product so good that people will buy it without regard to HD DVD support.

From my understanding of super resolution video processing, if they have a chip that can do it real time, it is a product that people will buy even if they have a blu ray player. It is a product that people will buy even if they have no interest is buying HD material because it makes the discs they have HD. Not close to HD, the real thing, honest to goodness HD but probably at about 720p resolution.

IF, they sell enough of these with HD DVD built in, studio support will follow. People will really want to play all of their old discs at better quality than they have ever seen before but if the player is firmly entrenched and not likely to dissapear, they will buy new material in HD DVD.

If the price is right and the advantages are clear, they could easily sell millions the first year. I only bought one HD DVD player, I would buy three players that could play my old DVDs at HD quality, one for each HD capable TV in my house.

There's too many ifs but this is a truely transformative technology. It would reach markets that HD DVD and Blu ray have not been able to touch.

From my understanding of super resolution video processing, if they have a chip that can do it real time, it is a product that people will buy even if they have a blu ray player. It is a product that people will buy even if they have no interest is buying HD material because it makes the discs they have HD. Not close to HD, the real thing, honest to goodness HD but probably at about 720p resolution.

Ah, a name for it! I didn't know what it was called and had no idea all the research into it until you posted the above - I just knew it as Hi-Vision MUSE-like processing of a signal and IMAX DMR.

Having a Super-Resolution processor in an HD-DVD player would be an incredible advancement in video technology, I think.

I thought they were toast a week ago.

Now, I think they have one shot. They have to release a product so good that people will buy it without regard to HD DVD support.

From my understanding of super resolution video processing, if they have a chip that can do it real time, it is a product that people will buy even if they have a blu ray player. It is a product that people will buy even if they have no interest is buying HD material because it makes the discs they have HD. Not close to HD, the real thing, honest to goodness HD but probably at about 720p resolution.

IF, they sell enough of these with HD DVD built in, studio support will follow. People will really want to play all of their old discs at better quality than they have ever seen before but if the player is firmly entrenched and not likely to dissapear, they will buy new material in HD DVD.

If the price is right and the advantages are clear, they could easily sell millions the first year. I only bought one HD DVD player, I would buy three players that could play my old DVDs at HD quality, one for each HD capable TV in my house.

There's too many ifs but this is a truely transformative technology. It would reach markets that HD DVD and Blu ray have not been able to touch.



I am a little confused, by this. I personally think they only hope they have is to put the players uner $100. If they compete head to head with SD DVDs, they could very easily turn the tide quickly. $129 is close, but I think $99 is the point where the dam breaks.

Of course, discounting this to $99 is not enough. they need advertising to back up the price drop.

dropping the price from 149 (at most stores) to $99 would cost them an additional 50 million per 1 million units sold.

Imagine this, a $49 HD DVD player. I know it sound ludicrous, BUT lets say you sell 4 million. That would cost you 400 million more. Then you release the A4 at $200 and eventually wind that back down to $125-150.

By then you would have 3-5 million more units in homes and that would demand studio attention.

If Sony and its group are willing to buy studios, you need to counter by buying the customer. This is the only avenue now which is why the player is $149 at retail stores. But that is not enough for mainstream adoption after this latest blow. they need to take one last strike.

Let the horn of helm hammerhand sound in the deep one last time!

I am a little confused, by this. I personally think they only hope they have is to put the players uner $100. If they compete head to head with SD DVDs, they could very easily turn the tide quickly. $129 is close, but I think $99 is the point where the dam breaks.

Of course, discounting this to $99 is not enough. they need advertising to back up the price drop.

dropping the price from 149 (at most stores) to $99 would cost them an additional 50 million per 1 million units sold.

Imagine this, a $49 HD DVD player. I know it sound ludicrous, BUT lets say you sell 4 million. That would cost you 400 million more. Then you release the A4 at $200 and eventually wind that back down to $125-150.

By then you would have 3-5 million more units in homes and that would demand studio attention.

If Sony and its group are willing to buy studios, you need to counter by buying the customer. This is the only avenue now which is why the player is $149 at retail stores. But that is not enough for mainstream adoption after this latest blow. they need to take one last strike.

Let the horn of helm hammerhand sound in the deep one last time!

I think the spursengine was going to be their final solution for the format war later this year. It would have been a knock out blow in a 50-50 war.

Things have changed. Now it gives them a chance to survive if they get it out in time.

I'm not sure they can sell enough gen 3 machines on price alone. I think they could sell enough if they add some functionality that will sell it outside of the HD DVD/Blu ray war. HD Divx, USB support, video download would be a good start.

I think the spursengine was going to be their final solution for the format war later this year. It would have been a knock out blow in a 50-50 war.

Things have changed. Now it gives them a chance to survive if they get it out in time.

I'm not sure they can sell enough gen 3 machines on price alone. I think they could sell enough if they add some functionality that will sell it outside of the HD DVD/Blu ray war. HD Divx, USB support, video download would be a good start.

What is that, the Spursengine? I've never heard that term before - is it Super Resolution processing or something?

I think the spursengine was going to be their final solution for the format war later this year. It would have been a knock out blow in a 50-50 war.

Things have changed. Now it gives them a chance to survive if they get it out in time.

I'm not sure they can sell enough gen 3 machines on price alone. I think they could sell enough if they add some functionality that will sell it outside of the HD DVD/Blu ray war. HD Divx, USB support, video download would be a good start.

The problem is that it will cost more. The J6P doesn't even know what a divx is. He's got an HD TV or sports (probably 1080i or 720p) and has his 480p progessive DVD player hooked up to it via component cables. He won't care about USB support. He just wants to pop in a disk and watch it play. This is who needs to be targeted. He has heard of bluray because everytime he goes to bestbuy, the bluray signs are everywhere. In order to get him in, Toshiba needs to drop the price and advertise like there is no tomorrow. Where do you start? 3-5 30 second ads in the superbowl showing how much more advanced the HD player is. Kinda like how DLP mesmorized everyone with "the mirrors"

There is no more time for posteuring at this point. You have 4.5 months until you lose the current largest volume releaser of HDM material. You need to play your hand and go all in or fold right now and get out of the game.

They were suppose to showcase a 4th gen player at CES but it never happened.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Toshiba's 4th gen player line-up will be shipping just after CEDIA. Toshiba has plans in development for a series of firmware fixes and upgrades to advance the current 3rd gen players while we're waiting for video processor technology to mature just a tad more. Toshiba's philosophy is to release 4th gen players when the hardware can give us something to talk about.

-Robert

Absolutely 100% wrong. Toshiba's 4th gen player line-up will be shipping just after CEDIA. Toshiba has plans in development for a series of firmware fixes and upgrades to advance the current 3rd gen players while we're waiting for video processor technology to mature just a tad more. Toshiba's philosophy is to release 4th gen players when the hardware can give us something to talk about.

-Robert


Odd how any HD DVD owner will tell you it is the best upscaling player on the planet. I don't think the 4th gen players need to be any 'better'... we need movies. Even Universal and Paramount, studios with many great films, are releasing virtually nothing in 2008.

Moreover, folks that buy $100 HD DVD players are not happy about spending more per disc than their Blu Ray counterparts... HD DVD should lower disc prices across the board to DVD pricing ($15 to $20). $30 and up to too expensive for the average buyer walking into Best Buy or Target. It would better fit the player pricing. There is better pricing on line but that does nothing for HD DVD but maintain its flash in the pan internet phenomenon status.

Regarding upscaling, it is far over-rated. Most players from any manufacturer do it quite well already. The importance of upscaling on a screen smaller than 50" is debatable.

I do hope they work on firmware updates for the next gen players.. That is positive.

Jeff, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation are working on an escalated release schedule of catalog titles, but legal and replicating processes take some time to get through the pipeline.

Since you own a XA2 don't you agree that it is the very best up-converting SD DVD player available?

Give it a few months and we should see an increase of title releases.

Hey, what happened to the great wine recommendations?

-Robert

Hey, what happened to the great wine recommendations?


Replaced with whine mostly ...

J/K Jeff.

I do agree that more and cheaper content is needed by the red's ... I fear it is a losing proposition however.

Jeff, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation are working on an escalated release schedule of catalog titles, but legal and replicating processes take some time to get through the pipeline.

Since you own a XA2 don't you agree that it is the very best up-converting SD DVD player available?

Give it a few months and we should see an increase of title releases.

Hey, what happened to the great wine recommendations?

-Robert

I buy on both formats, but there has been little worthy of purchase on the HD DVD side... You are right, I have an XA2 and enjoy it immensely, but I want more movies.

I have a great Pinot Noir for you you must try this small operation vineyard Ken Wright Cellars.... Oregon. Pinots are $60 - $90 from the Savoya or Elton Vineyards. They do very small runs and might be difficult to find.

Jeff, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation are working on an escalated release schedule of catalog titles, but legal and replicating processes take some time to get through the pipeline.

I hope that is the case. They need to start releasing more titles. Universal especially.

Robert, are the firmware updates only for Gen 3 Hardware? What about gen 2? Did my A-2 see it's last firmware update?

Yes, that is my understanding.

its got me a little excited as well.

What is that, the Spursengine? I've never heard that term before - is it Super Resolution processing or something?

Brief nutshell to the best of my memory.

Sony sold their portion of their cell production plant to Toshiba. Toshiba has created a version called the spurs engine. It has a dedicated mpeg4 decryption engine and a seperate encryption engine. In addition, it contains 3 cells dedicated to video production. It uses less expensive material and only runs at 1.5 ghz but is supposed to be powerful enough to do super resolution in real time plus a number of other tricks.

It should be inexpensive enough to use in mass production players. They also mentioned that sharp would be buying the product to include in their HD television sets and would be available as an add on card for the PC.

What is that, the Spursengine? I've never heard that term before - is it Super Resolution processing or something?

u and most of the rest of us havent heard of it cuz its never been used/seen/discussed (at least by consumers or anyone outside of toshiba) until ces, afaik.

i think its an abbreviation of 'SuPer resolUtion pRocessing, etc...'. just a guess.

Robert, are the firmware updates only for Gen 3 Hardware? What about gen 2? Did my A-2 see it's last firmware update?
Toshiba is supporting all HD DVD player with upgrades as they are developed.

-Robert

Toshiba is supporting all HD DVD player with upgrades as they are developed.

-Robert


Nice! That's great to hear, Robert.

Robert, thanks for the reply! I have another quick question if you don't mind. Any chance we will get a firmware for a faster eject? Is there theoretically no reason the eject mechanism can work independently of the hd-dvd player? I would love this. The only negative I have the with hd-dvd is waiting for the tray to open. I know people will yell at me for not having patience to wait for the unit to load before watching a 2.5 hour movie. I have the patience. I am just wondering if Toshiba has considered cutting down loading times with any type of work around. I'm just curious, please don't bash.

I love HD-DVD! :-)

Toshiba bought the cell production plant and has developed a less expensive cell processor for just this purpose. It uses fewer cells and runs slower than a PS3 but is supposed to be much less expensive to produce.

This would not be a PS3 class processor. It is just a video coprocesser. It is slower, has fewer cells and uses less expensive materials. On the plus side, in addition to being much less expensive, it only uses 10-20 watts.

That makes sense and would rock! I hope it turns out to be true!

I actually have a very short list of improvements that I'd love to see in the next generation of HD DVD players:
1. Shorter boot and load times
2. HDMI-CEC. I know gen 3 has it already, but I mostly use XA2 which doesn't
3. Auto-detection of film vs. video content so I needn't turn off 24p, etc.
Other than that, I feel the XA2 is perfect.

^
XBOX 360 would be in 4th place in the console war. Oh wait, that's PS3's situation ;)

The 4th console this generation is.... what now?

^
1st = XBOX 360
2nd = Wii
3rd = PS2
4th = PS3

And I never said "this generation"

The PS2 still outsells the PS3 (I've read that december sales for PS3 were only 400,000 in NA...I'm thinking that sounds low, but I read that in another thread). Hell, PS2 may even be outselling XBOX 360, for that matter.

Odd how any HD DVD owner will tell you it is the best upscaling player on the planet. I don't think the 4th gen players need to be any 'better'... we need movies. Even Universal and Paramount, studios with many great films, are releasing virtually nothing in 2008.

Moreover, folks that buy $100 HD DVD players are not happy about spending more per disc than their Blu Ray counterparts... HD DVD should lower disc prices across the board to DVD pricing ($15 to $20). $30 and up to too expensive for the average buyer walking into Best Buy or Target. It would better fit the player pricing. There is better pricing on line but that does nothing for HD DVD but maintain its flash in the pan internet phenomenon status.

Regarding upscaling, it is far over-rated. Most players from any manufacturer do it quite well already. The importance of upscaling on a screen smaller than 50" is debatable.

I do hope they work on firmware updates for the next gen players.. That is positive.

I think the confusion here is some people are talking upscaling and others are talking about super resolution. They are completely different technology.

After you upscale, you do not have any more real pixels than when you started. With super resolution, you are pulling information from other frames and have the real potential to quadrupal the real resolution of the source (depending on how many frames you sample).

I can tell the difference between SD and HD on a 26 inch TV from 10 feet away. True resolution increase would benefit me greatly even on the 26 inch TV in the bedroom.

I agree about disc pricing. Once the players are out there, you don't want to discourage buying.

Of course, although Toshiba has purchased the plant to make the spursengine and have demonstrated it. Them putting it in a fourth generation player is completely speculative.

^
1st = XBOX 360
2nd = Wii
3rd = PS2
4th = PS3

And I never said "this generation"

The PS2 still outsells the PS3 (I've read that december sales for PS3 were only 400,000 in NA...I'm thinking that sounds low, but I read that in another thread). Hell, PS2 may even be outselling XBOX 360, for that matter.

It was more then 400k...but the ps2 sold more in 07 then ps3 has in its life


http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/npd-us-video-game-industry-totals-1794-billion-halo-3-tops-all/19119/?biz=1



Here' how the 2007 annual hardware sales and life-to-date (in parentheses) installed bases stack up:


DS: 8.50 million (17.65 million)

Wii: 6.29 million (7.38 million)

Xbox 360: 4.62 million (9.15 million)

PS2: 3.97 million (41.12 million)

PSP: 3.82 million (10.47 million)

PS3: 2.56 million (3.25 million)

Toshiba's philosophy is to release 4th gen players when the hardware can give us something to talk about. -Robert
I really like to see a super resolution chip in this 4th gen players :cool:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/04/12/letitwave-introduces-super-resolution-bandlet-upconversion-techn/

^
1st = XBOX 360
2nd = Wii
3rd = PS2
4th = PS3

And I never said "this generation"

The PS2 still outsells the PS3 (I've read that december sales for PS3 were only 400,000 in NA...I'm thinking that sounds low, but I read that in another thread). Hell, PS2 may even be outselling XBOX 360, for that matter.

This has nothing to do with the intent of this thread, which is a 4th generation HD player from Toshiba. let's try to stay on topic. Thanks

Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation are working on an escalated release schedule of catalog titles, but legal and replicating processes take some time to get through the pipeline.

As a HD DVD owner, I hope you're right................however, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe I'll see it. Para did squat last year, the same they'll do in 2008 until the BR hammer falls!

Can we expect 4th gen players to be much quicker loading?

Toshiba is supporting all HD DVD player with upgrades as they are developed.

With all due respect, you fail to mention the COUNTLESS number of folks (myself included), who have encountered more/different problems after upgrading firmware. Simply peruse this section of AVS for the myriad of problems concerning ALL generations of Toshiba players. Gen 4 won't be any different!!!

While I can't say I haven't seen the issue threads, I've had zero issues with the XA2 and A3 players I have set up (thru 2-3 firmware updates) and I know of 6 other people that have owned or still own at least one model with no issues.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Toshiba's 4th gen player line-up will be shipping just after CEDIA. Toshiba has plans in development for a series of firmware fixes and upgrades to advance the current 3rd gen players while we're waiting for video processor technology to mature just a tad more. Toshiba's philosophy is to release 4th gen players when the hardware can give us something to talk about.

-Robert

Wait... CEDIA is September 3 - 7, 2008. What's the point of releasing the 4th gen player at that point, unless it is a combo player?

fitprod

I can only report what I am told. I'm asked questions and provide the best, most accurate information at the time. This is a very fluid situation and things change very rapidly. Over the nest few months we'll see what unfolds.

-Robert

I really like to see a super resolution chip in this 4th gen players :cool:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/04/12/letitwave-introduces-super-resolution-bandlet-upconversion-techn/

Oh, yeah! I like the idea of 'judderless', no-motion-blur conversion from 24fps to 60fps instead of 2:3 pulldown - for people like me, with a 720p/60 projector that doesn't accept 24p, it would be great.

Of course, the Super-Resolution processing is exciting enough! I really respect Yves Faroudja, so his endorsement of the technology means a lot to me. (hmmm, the spell checker suggested "Aroused" instead of "Faroudja" - how did it know how I feel when I read about Faroudja processing and such???:eek:)

I think Intel developed Super-Resolution:

Converting DVD into HD DVD (http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/18970/?a=f)

I thought it was a Sony and Toshiba joint venture or was that just for the PS3 Processor

I think Intel developed Super-Resolution:

Converting DVD into HD DVD (http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/18970/?a=f)

The idea of super resolution is 20 to 30 years old but it wasn't until the 90's that the algorithms and computer power came together to allow the process to be applied to photos. We are now waiting for the power to use it on live video.

Intel is desperately searching for killer apps that will require you to upgrade your computers.

The facts are that Toshiba canceled their press conference and didn't show any new HD DVD players at CES.

Toshiba didn't have any new HD DVD player at CES. If that doesn't say anything to you, I don't think you understand how this industry works.

And of course you do...What I dont get is that the HD media market is less than 1.5 percent on the market but BD won and HD DVD is done.....done with losing more or less money than BD? BD has sold more discs and Toshibe more players(not counting the PS3)...so they both lose. This isn't even a "war"....its like 2 7 year olds wrestling over a swing at the park....:)

Redundant post
Sorry, Should have read ahead!

And of course you do...What I dont get is that the HD media market is less than 1.5 percent on the market but BD won and HD DVD is done.....done with losing more or less money than BD? BD has sold more discs and Toshibe more players(not counting the PS3)...so they both lose. This isn't even a "war"....its like 2 7 year olds wrestling over a swing at the park....:)


I agree, we have not seen a war, the soldiers are in the barracks watching DVD, cable and satelite, they are not terribly interested in joining in any fight.

Sony has sold millions of players to a demographic that is not terribly interested.

The question is whether Toshiba can sell millions of players to a demographic that is interested in movies. I think I know how they can sell millions of players but I have no idea if that will translate to movie sales. Of course on the other hand, does Toshiba care? It's hard to tell if anybodys wants to sell HD DVD discs, look at their price vs blu ray, I see that Amazon is selling blue for half price again.

This is rhetorical, does Toshiba want to sell players and sell HD discs or are they trying to stop blu ray. Those are really two different questions and may have two different answers and two different tactics.

In all honesty, after buying into HD DVD, there are movies that I want on HD but for the most part I will stick with DVD for many purchases. I hate to admit this, I have 6 DVD players in the house and another one in the car, whoops add another 4 installed in the computers. There are a few movies that I really want to dive into and watch over and over, those are HD material. The rest are background noise or entertainment for the wife and kids, those are DVD material.

If Toshiba can make a gen 4 player that improves the picture of DVD, I would probably buy 2 more of them. If I had 3 Toshiba players, I would buy more HD DVDs but I would still buy most of my movies on DVD. Now is this a problem for Toshiba? Depends on what Toshiba really wants, more HD DVDs sold or stopping blu-ray.

^
1st = XBOX 360
2nd = Wii
3rd = PS2
4th = PS3

And I never said "this generation"

The PS2 still outsells the PS3 (I've read that december sales for PS3 were only 400,000 in NA...I'm thinking that sounds low, but I read that in another thread). Hell, PS2 may even be outselling XBOX 360, for that matter.

You missed the first....

DS lite. they have more of those sold than the current gen combined

I agree, we have not seen a war, the soldiers are in the barracks watching DVD, cable and satelite, they are not terribly interested in joining in any fight.

Sony has sold millions of players to a demographic that is not terribly interested.

The question is whether Toshiba can sell millions of players to a demographic that is interested in movies. I think I know how they can sell millions of players but I have no idea if that will translate to movie sales. Of course on the other hand, does Toshiba care? It's hard to tell if anybodys wants to sell HD DVD discs, look at their price vs blu ray, I see that Amazon is selling blue for half price again.

This is rhetorical, does Toshiba want to sell players and sell HD discs or are they trying to stop blu ray. Those are really two different questions and may have two different answers and two different tactics.

In all honesty, after buying into HD DVD, there are movies that I want on HD but for the most part I will stick with DVD for many purchases. I hate to admit this, I have 6 DVD players in the house and another one in the car, whoops add another 4 installed in the computers. There are a few movies that I really want to dive into and watch over and over, those are HD material. The rest are background noise or entertainment for the wife and kids, those are DVD material.

If Toshiba can make a gen 4 player that improves the picture of DVD, I would probably buy 2 more of them. If I had 3 Toshiba players, I would buy more HD DVDs but I would still buy most of my movies on DVD. Now is this a problem for Toshiba? Depends on what Toshiba really wants, more HD DVDs sold or stopping blu-ray.

For what I highlighted in red, Wouldn't blue ray have the very same problem with SD DVD's too? Is blue ray just trying to stop HD DVD?

So, Q3 '08 is the plan for new players. Thanks for the info, Robert.

P.S. I hope they release an inexpensive one with good DVD upconversion and a smaller form factor. All their current players are too large IMO.

I hope a model with 7.1 analog outs and internal decoding DTS-HD-MA like Pana BD-50

For what I highlighted in red, Wouldn't blue ray have the very same problem with SD DVD's too? Is blue ray just trying to stop HD DVD?


Toshiba wins with a status quo. Sony wins if they can shift people away from DVD.

That is why the super resolution upconverter 4th gen player would have been a home run if the studios were still 50/50. They could have sold enough players to keep blue from ever winning which would have been a win for them and may have tipped the ballance for a second win with eventual domination of the HD market.

I am not interested in buying another 3rd gen player unless they add some features. I would be very interested in a 4th generation player with a spursengine.