I have not seen a thing? Anyone else?

There've been a couple of official "no comments" in response to direct questions about continued HD-DVD support but I believe that's it.

I don't see 231317384718374891237498134+ threads here about it, so I'm guessing not. Or maybe there is official word and it's just not being discussed.

I don't see 231317384718374891237498134+ threads here about it, so I'm guessing not. Or maybe there is official word and it's just not being discussed.

LMAO and that about sums it up doesn't it ;)

I wonder if it will be Ken Graffeo making an announcement (What ever that might be)

He is going to take a lot of flak if they announce they are abandoning HD DVD.

Ken Graffeo has left the company to explore other opportunities is how these releases usually start out.

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.

Ken Graffeo has left the company to explore other opportunities is how these releases usually start out.

LOL

I cant imagine Universal rushing to make Blu-ray content.

I figure they will release it when the feel like it.

People are starting threads so indiscriminately that spelling is suffering in thread titles. Does not look from such titles that AVS is a leading forum on A/V, even putting aside the content and number of threads on this issue.

I have not seen a thing? Anyone else?

Last time I heard they support HD DVD exclusively so I'm not sure what you're asking.

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.

LOL.. yeah I'm sure Best Buy will persuade one of the biggest movie studios to do something. Get a grip.

This is completely off the hook now. People are just talking nonsense without thinking anymore at all.

LOL.. yeah I'm sure Best Buy will persuade one of the biggest movie studios to do something. Get a grip. You're claiming that the #1 retailer of HDM plus several more retailers won't be able to persuade them, and you're telling us to get a grip? Man, that bubble must be nice and soothing.

Ken Graffeo has left the company to explore other opportunities is how these releases usually start out.

Or, we will be hearing how Ken is a real family man shortly...

One of the two. :)

You're claiming that the #1 retailer of HDM plus several more retailers won't be able to persuade them, and you're telling us to get a grip? Man, that bubble must be nice and soothing.

LOL, so true. So if Best Buy (the #1 seller of HDM by far) just decided to drop HD-DVD from it's shelves one day, Paramount and Uni wouldn't care?

bestbuy wont do that as long as people are still buying it plus they usually dont get in the middle of these arguments they are just resellers

bestbuy wont do that as long as people are still buying it plus they usually dont get in the middle of these arguments they are just resellers

Right. That is why we still have DivX.

Someone over at the HTF posted a quote from Ken Graffeo (at Universal's CES event) as reported in the Wall Street Journal...

Quote:
"The HD DVD camp has always stuck to a simple set of principles," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group.

"Give consumers who buy into HD DVD what they paid for. In fact, give them more than they expected. Show them that quality and value go hand in hand with HD DVD. Show them what advanced interactivity really means and how it can enrich your favorite movies that you watch over and over."

bestbuy wont do that as long as people are still buying it plus they usually dont get in the middle of these arguments they are just resellers

The problem is people AREN'T buying it. Combined HDM was a paltry fraction of the 40-odd billion dollar a year that DVDs sell (worldwide). That's why the retailers want a single HDM format, so adoption will pick up. Target did it to Divx, and you are kidding yourself if you don't think that BB and the other large B&M retailers won't do something similar soon.

And you're delusional if you don't think that the people who sell a product don't have a huge sway with the people who make it.

If retailers really want a single HDM format then there will never be a better time than now for the likes of Amazon, Best Buy and Circuit City to stock only BluRay. With the loss of the Warner catalog and eroding retail support, HDDVD stragglers Paramount and Universal would have no recourse but to move to Blu (if they aren't already almost there).

In fact, I would be surprised if some major retailers don't announce exactly that!

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.


Not for nothing. THe less content on hd dvd means a smaller foot print in the store. They can just devote less space to it .

if universal and parmount stay with hd dvd then all the big boxes will continue to carry it . Lots of big titles are from these companys in the next few months and you can bet bestbuy wants them in their store.

I'm sure that bestbuy wants to sell the sd version of iron man so they will keep the hd dvd version on shelves.

Ah yes Universal. The endless round of speculations idle and otherwise. As silent as ever. Just like last year's CES where you didn't even know they existed. Tanked for releases for 4 months and almost single-handedly helped hasten HD DVD's obsolescence. When asked after CES why they didn't announce anything it was a classic case of, gee we didn't think we needed to! Well at least they released a lot of content afterwards but it's time to close up shop with HD DVD. But Universal, make sure you get in on that Sony cash cow!

I'm sure that bestbuy wants to sell the sd version of iron man so they will keep the hd dvd version on shelves.

Huh?

You think if a Best Buy decided to delist HDDVD, that a studio would withold standard DVD releases? Come on people - think please!

This is about long-term gain versus short-term gain. Retailers have claimed dissapointment with the holiday sales of HDM. Clearly something has to change, and the most obvious change is to end the format confusion. A major retailer would give up some small, short-term profit by delisting HDDVD, but potentially significantly enhance longer-term profit through a sucessful, single-format HDM.

What cash cow?? its no wonder paramount came to hd-dvd... even if they were paid 150 million or (speculation), the HDM industry made 300 million in sales while dvd was in the 15 billion ranger or something. Paramount essentially got half the money the entire market made last year in HDM for basically releasing few titles. Thats why i believe warner left as well. If warner was paid like 300 million or more, thats more than what they would have gotten staying neutral and so they can afford to incur losses now only supporting one side. If toshiba wants to have another chance, they need to persuade fox with a couple hundred mill of its own.

The BB rumor wouldn't surprise me at all. How sick do you think they are of taking returns and dealing with angry customers because of this stupid format war? How many people do they watch walk out of their stores after getting confused trying to decide which to buy?

LOL, so true. So if Best Buy (the #1 seller of HDM by far) just decided to drop HD-DVD from it's shelves one day, Paramount and Uni wouldn't care?

"Its all Walmart." will be the response.

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.

Well, why would they care? They got your money when you bought your player from them.

I just want to know. If Warner and Fox went the other way, would you all be ok with everyone just dropping Blu-ray at the drop of the hat? Or would you be bitching that all a sudden that player you bought would be worthless?


I would be honestly pissed if Universal and Paramount gave 1 million owners the big middle finger, especially those that bought their players last month and weren't a forum junkie.

I would be honestly pissed if Universal and Paramount gave 1 million owners the big middle finger, especially those that bought their players last month and weren't a forum junkie.

They would be doing the rest of us a huge favor. Besides Paramount is used to giving people the finger.

they did not make or own the players their role is content.

[QUOTE=Michael Mullis;12741455]
I just want to know. If Warner and Fox went the other way, would you all be ok with everyone just dropping Blu-ray at the drop of the hat? Or would you be bitching that all a sudden that player you bought would be worthless?
QUOTE]

No, two "upconverting" players and a game machine. :D

That game machine is in a good position with 2.0 activity and a hard drive. I always scratched my head to download a 'web-enabled' feature or trailer that was SD. Mainly I see HD trailers on X360 or PS3. Managing the available space was a pain too.

But i digress.

Word from Uni, HD_DVD PRG and Co. would at least help AVS evolve from being a haven for the "emotional trash can" threads which despite their purpose will wear out their welcome.

LOL.. yeah I'm sure Best Buy will persuade one of the biggest movie studios to do something. Get a grip.

This is completely off the hook now. People are just talking nonsense without thinking anymore at all.


Ya, I love how these teenagers, whom are probably still being dressed by their moms are spreading lies! Runs out and buys a PS3 because its the "Best in the world!" and all the websites says HD DVD is teh finished!

Ya, I love how these teenagers, whom are probably still being dressed by their moms are spreading lies! Runs out and buys a PS3 because its the "Best in the world!" and all the websites says HD DVD is teh finished!My Nanna told me that the PS3 was the bestest in the whole world and I trusted her. Since I bought it I found out the she was telling the truth. My Nanna loves me and Blu-ray. Nanna knows best!:)

I just want to know. If Warner and Fox went the other way, would you all be ok with everyone just dropping Blu-ray at the drop of the hat? Or would you be bitching that all a sudden that player you bought would be worthless?

Of course I'd be pissed. And I'd be concerned about the future of HDM. It wouldn't chance the fact that in your imaginary situation I'd fully expect the B&M retailers to drop BD like a hot potatoe for the exact same set of reasons. Also, I'd stop buying BDs unless I really couldn't live for a year without the titles (nothing comes to mind atm).

And my wife would have been irritated at me, but luckily I picked the winning horse.

Ya, I love how these teenagers, whom are probably still being dressed by their moms are spreading lies! Runs out and buys a PS3 because its the "Best in the world!" and all the websites says HD DVD is teh finished!

Luckily those teenager-comments face a stark contrast with your erudite assesment of current market trends...

From a BBC story:

Andy Parsons, of the Blu-ray Disc Association, said: "It's much clearer to consumers now which of the formats is going to prevail."

Speaking at the Consumer Electronics Show, in Las Vegas, he added: "We still have a little bit more work to do before we can say the format war is over."

What do you all think that 'little bit more work' entails? I guess we'll soon know.

--- CHAS

GE: "we make blue things for life..."

It seems, of course, inevitible that Universal will support Blu-Ray, it's only a matter of when and how they will start...

What cash cow?? its no wonder paramount came to hd-dvd... even if they were paid 150 million or (speculation), the HDM industry made 300 million in sales while dvd was in the 15 billion ranger or something. Paramount essentially got half the money the entire market made last year in HDM for basically releasing few titles. Thats why i believe warner left as well. If warner was paid like 300 million or more, thats more than what they would have gotten staying neutral and so they can afford to incur losses now only supporting one side. If toshiba wants to have another chance, they need to persuade fox with a couple hundred mill of its own.

What cash cow? You invest in something and lose money and in one fell swoop that debt is wiped out by a cash payment READ: not a loan. Cash cow indeed. Proportionately to sd is absolutely nothing to do with it. Universal has a separate department which deals with high def media. It you're the head of that department and been running into the red or marginal black and in one stroke of the pen your department goes into deep deep black I assure you that's a cash cow.

B&M retailers to drop BD like a hot potatoe

Hey, Dan Quayle has decided to visit AVS!!

The BB rumor wouldn't surprise me at all. How sick do you think they are of taking returns and dealing with angry customers because of this stupid format war? How many people do they watch walk out of their stores after getting confused trying to decide which to buy?

This is why im very surprised that the major retailers even allowed a format war in the first place. retailers like Best buy, Circuit city, Walmart and even Amazon could have stopped this mess from day 1 if they had somewhat banded together. (NO im not blaming retailers for the format war!!) But they do have more stroke in the industry than we probably understand.

This is why im very surprised that the major retailers even allowed a format war in the first place. retailers like Best buy, Circuit city, Walmart and even Amazon could have stopped this mess from day 1 if they had somewhat banded together. (NO im not blaming retailers for the format war!!) But they do have more stroke in the industry than we probably understand.

I doubt the big boxes will band together to jointly announce they don't want to make money on hidef media. Its true that they would make MORE with a single format (wasted shelf space etc) though.

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.


But Walmart is the #1 seller of DVDs & I bet they have a bigger say in the long run and didn't they throw their weight a little behind HD when they escalated this war with $99 players?

Right. That is why we still have DivX.Umm, BestBuy was the main competitor of Divx's backer.

The problem is people AREN'T buying it. Combined HDM was a paltry fraction of the 40-odd billion dollar a year that DVDs sell (worldwide). That's why the retailers want a single HDM format, so adoption will pick up. Target did it to Divx, and you are kidding yourself if you don't think that BB and the other large B&M retailers won't do something similar soon.

Ummmmm, when did Target carry Divx? Divx was a Circuit City product. It is not the same as HDM which is carried everywhere.

I wish people would stop making a comparison to a product that you cannot compare HD DVD or Blu-ray too.


And you're delusional if you don't think that the people who sell a product don't have a huge sway with the people who make it.

So the reason SACD and those are still stocked at Best Buy?

"No comment" from Universal, although I do hear a lot of papers being shuffled by their lawyers.

Escape clause?

Rumors around Vegas right now are that big box stores- Best Buy specifically- are pressuring Uni to end this before CES ends.

That's hilarious. Best Buy pressure >>> BWAHAHA.

Kind of like the Best Buy sales person I watched tell some old dude in a wheel-chair, "You want USB 2.0, it's faster than Firewire anyways."

Best Buy ... pure genius.

FWIW: I was exchanging my Bourne non-functioning combo disc. I won't miss those Piles ...:cool:

Let me know when AMAZON quits carrying it.

Not for nothing. THe less content on hd dvd means a smaller foot print in the store. They can just devote less space to it .

if universal and parmount stay with hd dvd then all the big boxes will continue to carry it . Lots of big titles are from these companys in the next few months and you can bet bestbuy wants them in their store.

I'm sure that bestbuy wants to sell the sd version of iron man so they will keep the hd dvd version on shelves.

I'm struggling to see how HD-DVD will sell even 50% of the weekly content they did before the WB news, even with exclusive titles.

We've reached the point were a very signifcant number of HD-DVD owners will not purchase anymore movies in that format, instead switching to Blu-ray, giving even more incentive for HD-DVD studios to also make the move.

Ummmmm, when did Target carry Divx? Divx was a Circuit City product. It is not the same as HDM which is carried everywhere.

I wish people would stop making a comparison to a product that you cannot compare HD DVD or Blu-ray too. Oh. So all those posts in the last two year from HD DVD supporters comparing Blu-ray to DIVX never happened?

:rolleyes:
That's hilarious. Best Buy pressure >>> BWAHAHA. I think you need to read this:

Best Buy named leading high-def retailer...by a large margin (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6487731.html)

That's hilarious. Best Buy pressure >>> BWAHAHA.
Best Buy is the leading retailer for HDM, and is the only profitable B&M in the consumer electronics industry.

Circuit City is bleeding money at record pace, CompUSA is belly-up, and Wal-Mart/Target are just getting their feet wet in the high-definition arena.

Kind of like the Best Buy sales person I watched tell some old dude in a wheel-chair, "You want USB 2.0, it's faster than Firewire anyways."

Aside from the fact that USB is more prolific than Firewire, USB 2.0 is 80Mbps faster than Firewire 400.

Yeah, lots of AVSers take cracks at BB and their oft-misinformed sales staff, but for a lot of consumers out there it's a great all-inclusive place to go for "tech stuff."

Oh. So all those posts in the last two year from HD DVD supporters comparing Blu-ray to DIVX never happened?


Sorry, I wasn't aware we were playing the "two wrongs make a right" game.

And for the record, I don't care about what other people say. It's a wrong comparison. Period.

Or, we will be hearing how Ken is a real family man shortly...

One of the two. :)

Just like Steve Nickerson and Richard Parsons. Note to future executives, don't stake a career on business with Toshiba or M$.

If retailers really want a single HDM format then there will never be a better time than now for the likes of Amazon, Best Buy and Circuit City to stock only BluRay. With the loss of the Warner catalog and eroding retail support, HDDVD stragglers Paramount and Universal would have no recourse but to move to Blu (if they aren't already almost there).

In fact, I would be surprised if some major retailers don't announce exactly that!

Considering Circuit City's finances, they'll be lucky to stock anything much longer. In fact a CC bankruptcy sale combined with HDDVD clearance sale could mean some pretty sweet deals.

[QUOTE=Michael Mullis;12741455]
I just want to know. If Warner and Fox went the other way, would you all be ok with everyone just dropping Blu-ray at the drop of the hat? Or would you be bitching that all a sudden that player you bought would be worthless?
QUOTE]

No, two "upconverting" players and a game machine. :D

That game machine is in a good position with 2.0 activity and a hard drive. I always scratched my head to download a 'web-enabled' feature or trailer that was SD. Mainly I see HD trailers on X360 or PS3. Managing the available space was a pain too.

But i digress.

Word from Uni, HD_DVD PRG and Co. would at least help AVS evolve from being a haven for the "emotional trash can" threads which despite their purpose will wear out their welcome.


HDDVD PRG cancelling their address at this year's CES isn't too reassuring.

Bill Hunt is reporting that Paramount should be making an official announcement soon about returning to Blu Ray with Universal a possibility as well. My personal and informal count has Bill about 50% right on these things as of late, but that would mean one of the two is correct. Either way, it's all just rumor right now, but it will be interesting to see what happens by the end of CES.

You can read his statements on http://www.thedigitalbits.com under his 1/8 posting.

Bill Hunt is reporting that Paramount should be making an official announcement soon about returning to Blu Ray with Universal a possibility as well. My personal and informal count has Bill about 50% right on these things as of late, but that would mean one of the two is correct. Either way, it's all just rumor right now, but it will be interesting to see what happens by the end of CES.

You can read his statements on http://www.thedigitalbits.com under his 1/8 posting.
That would be good news.

I don't know how quick Universal will switch but it is bound to happen. It won't be a surprise when it happens. The Warner move was such a big big blow. You have seen immediately the crash on amazon from HD DVD. Toshiba has done very very little since the Warner announcement to show any kind of strength and put that good feeling in their backers and fans. I use to enjoy going back and forth with the HD DVD guys. I have to say that I really feel bad for the ones that are upset, not the ones that it does not upset, but the ones that are really pissed about HD DVD losing. I know it would have sucked for me if BD would have lost. Some of you guys put thousands into the format.

Considering Circuit City's finances, they'll be lucky to stock anything much longer.

LOL - excellent point! Haven't been inside a CC in years, and I'm clearly not the only one!

Still think BB and Amazon could 'force' the remaining HDDVD studios hand!

I'm struggling to see how HD-DVD will sell even 50% of the weekly content they did before the WB news, even with exclusive titles.

We've reached the point were a very signifcant number of HD-DVD owners will not purchase anymore movies in that format, instead switching to Blu-ray, giving even more incentive for HD-DVD studios to also make the move.

So your telling me that if toshiba reintroduces $100 high def players and Universal says they will be exclusive for at least another year and parmount through the end of their contract ( I believe the rumor was 18 months which started october 2007 would end i believe june 2009) and they droped the price of hd dvds by a few bucks that people wouldn't continue to support it ?

It may be niche but there will still be some good eclusive content out there. Also it seems that other companys are going to continue with dual format players.

It may be that hd dvd never goes away just intergrates into bluray by means of cheap dual format players.

I can tell you that the movie fans will continue to buy hd dvd players and titles if that is the only way to get them high def for the next year or two

If Warner took months to figure out how they were going to bail out of HD DVD, what would you expect Universal and Paramount to accomplish in a couple of days? Ken Graffeo would have had to get his lawyers go on overtime to work out the legal issues, unless he'd already "gamed" the possible scenarios ahead of time. Not than Ken would be so quick to abandon HD DVD for that hated Blu-ray format...

I suppose the Retailers could make some public announcements at CES abandoning HD DVD but they'd have the same issues of evaluating the impact of no longer stocking HD DVD.

It all depends on the will of the included companys.

If they stay exclusive for a year more and Toshiba start to manufacture dualformat players that isnt expensive, other CE must follow.

But as I said, it all depends...

"Its all Walmart." will be the response.

Yes, and if you know anything about Wal-Mart and contract negotiations, they are ruthless. They would have no problem cutting off HD-DVD and forcing studios to abandon the format. Once they see the sales, you better believe somebody in Bentonville, Arkansas will let them know what they need to do.

The BB rumor wouldn't surprise me at all. How sick do you think they are of taking returns and dealing with angry customers because of this stupid format war? How many people do they watch walk out of their stores after getting confused trying to decide which to buy?

I wonder if the returns of Christmas gifts of HD DVD players is going to impact revenue for January. I returned my HD DVD player to amazon on Monday. I am so glad I heard of the rumor in December that I never opened my player.

From HighDefDigest:Amidst mounting speculation that it is soon to shift alliances, Universal Studios has confirmed that it will not be making any new HD DVD title announcements at this year's CES.

Though previous years have seen a cavalcade of title announcements from HD DVD-supporting studios at CES, this year's deafening silence from Universal and Paramount/DreamWorks has only fueled speculation that one (or both) of the studios are plotting a move to format neutrality or perhaps even Blu-ray exclusivity.

While Universal is issuing a terse "no comment" in response to the persistent rumors, a studio spokesperson did confirm for us that they will not be making any new title announcements at this year's CES.

Paramount similarly declined to make any new title announcements at CES, but as we first reported Monday, the studio is shooting down reports that it plans to abandon the format.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1352

Though previous years have seen a cavalcade of title announcements from HD DVD-supporting studios at CES, this year's deafening silence from U

This statement is completely false. Indeed, Universal was completely silent last year as well and indeed there were such a dearth of announcements of new titles it was a cause of real concern and indeed, as was borne out for approx. 4 months it appeared the spigot had dired up until Universal made its announcement shortly after about releases. Again, it didn't really deliver those until April and forward.

Having said all that it is hard to escape the current environment. They might say even if we support a dying format if Toshiba gives us a nice pot of cash for x period of time which our calculations show would dwarf any neutral move for the same period of time in terms of receipts, then we'll stick it out. They and Paramount are sitting in a nice position to get the most lucrative financial benefit from the current situation.

From HighDefDigest:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1352

this spells bad... i think universal and paramount are slowly leaving... it sucks but this fight is most likely over...

this spells bad... i think universal and paramount are slowly leaving... it sucks but this fight is most likely over...

"the studio is shooting down reports that it plans to abandon the format"

They are busy preparing the announcement to do the whole "Combo Only" for all new releases thing. :)

Check. Mate.

I'm just as good at speculating as the rest of these articles.

This statement is completely false. Indeed, Universal was completely silent last year as well and indeed there were such a dearth of announcements of new titles it was a cause of real concern and indeed, as was borne out for approx. 4 months it appeared the spigot had dired up until Universal made its announcement shortly after about releases. Again, it didn't really deliver those until April and forward.

Having said all that it is hard to escape the current environment. They might say even if we support a dying format if Toshiba gives us a nice pot of cash for x period of time which our calculations show would dwarf any neutral move for the same period of time in terms of receipts, then we'll stick it out. They and Paramount are sitting in a nice position to get the most lucrative financial benefit from the current situation.

But when asked about backing blu-ray you never heard them say "no comment." That alone in itself is the reason for the speculation.

This statement is completely false. Indeed, Universal was completely silent last year as well and indeed there were such a dearth of announcements of new titles it was a cause of real concern and indeed, as was borne out for approx. 4 months it appeared the spigot had dired up until Universal made its announcement shortly after about releases. Again, it didn't really deliver those until April and forward.

Having said all that it is hard to escape the current environment. They might say even if we support a dying format if Toshiba gives us a nice pot of cash for x period of time which our calculations show would dwarf any neutral move for the same period of time in terms of receipts, then we'll stick it out. They and Paramount are sitting in a nice position to get the most lucrative financial benefit from the current situation.

*and* were there *any* Blu-Ray release announcements that hadn't already been announced?

It may be niche but there will still be some good eclusive content out there. Also it seems that other companys are going to continue with dual format players.

It may be that hd dvd never goes away just intergrates into bluray by means of cheap dual format players.

I can tell you that the movie fans will continue to buy hd dvd players and titles if that is the only way to get them high def for the next year or two

Is there enough money in selling to that small of a group to make it worth the trouble and missing out on increased BD sales? The business degree in me is saying that doesn't make sense to risk serving such a small market when Universal and Paramount are such big companies that need high sales volume to turn profits.

Right. That is why we still have DivX.

DivX had a direct competitor (Cricuit City) as a founder. Thats why no one outside Blockbuster and Circuit City really sold the discs.

From Wiki

DIVX (Digital Video Express) was an attempt by Circuit City and the entertainment law firm Ziffren, Brittenham, Branca and Fischer to create an alternative to video rental in the United States.

Best Buy at the Time of DVD had barely any pull with the studios they gained popularity as prices started to go down from MSRP or "mall store" pricing. They were ahead of everyone else on that. but as it stands Walmart has the biggest pull of retail stores. Even they wouldn't be able to force anyones hands.

But when asked about backing blu-ray you never heard them say "no comment." That alone in itself is the reason for the speculation.

Are you sure, I thought I remember a 4-6 month Drought with Fox where you got only No Comments.

The Fact is last years CES which was pretty upbeat for HD-DVD and you still got almost nothing from them, in fact with the end of December rush there were almost no announcements from CES to mid February. I am sure that they probably would have fixed that mistake this year but now they have to come up with new ideas and be on the same page after the warner announcement.