This is just a simple question, but it has an important bearing on HDM, mass market consumers, AV enthusiasts... basically a lot of things:

Imagine if I were to flick a switch that made every DVD player in the world simply refuse to play any and all bonus materials. In fact, all special features are just quietly "absent" from the disc, so if you didn't know they were supposed to be there you would never even know you were missing them.

What percentage of the DVD buying public would ever notice?

Personally, I think less than half. Maybe as little as 25%.

Most people simply don't care. And I say this as somebody who LOVES special features and refuses to buy bare-bones editions of discs unless that's my only choice. But let's face facts: the moms/grandmas buying DVDs for $5 while they grocery shop are not giving a single thought as to whether the DVD has this or that special feature. It's these people who drove DVD to what it is.

I just wonder if:

a) Is pushing all sorts of fancy special features as a means of pushing HDM a flawed tactic? Are people wowed by "interactive games" when they got a PS3 or Wii or 360 sitting right there?

b) Is the BDA smarter than we think with this whole Profile system? If over half of people don't care a lick about special features, than anything beyond profile 1.0 is pointless for them. Profile 1.0 could essentially become Blu-ray's "discount" profile with super-cheap players. The kind of people who were buying them for sub $99 at Wal-Mart would never even know they are missing something. They would buy Blu-ray discs, the movie would work: they'd be happy.

Just something to ponder while I sit and wait for Criterion to start releasing on HDM.

UPDATE: Poll Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=974338).

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

This consumer does not care about special features.

Magic eight balls says.....

Maybe.....

I think depending upon the movie some people liek to watch it once or so. I think it was one of the better selling points when DVD first came out.

I do think the current level of special features is more than sufficient for what people want. I don't really think people will pay much attention to web connectivity...I really don't get what it offers....OO a quiz where I can determine which Spartan I am like...or OOO download a trailer that should have just been on the disk to begin with.

I think nothing more is needed than what is currently available. Alot of it doesnt even seem like special features...it comes off as a marketing gimick...at least the web stuff does.

I can think of less than half a dozen movies out of my entire library where I have cared one bit about special features. Some of the behind the scenes making of featurettes are cool, occasionally deletes scenes are worth watching, the rest is pretty much a waste of time I could be spent watching another movie.

I VERY rarely care about anything but the movie itself. With some notable exceptions, extras are added on just because it's expected now. I have a computer to connect to the web I could care less if my HDM player does (apart from convenient firmware updates). I never cared for 99% of commentary tracks and I'm not alone. I think PIP video commentary is just a gimmick that people will soon forget and stop using as well.

Just my opnion of course, but hey, that's what ya asked for, right?

If people didnt care, studios would not waste the time, money and other resources needed to produce them. One of the benefits of re-releasing titles is to give people special features that the original didnt have. When they re-release, if it sells well, then they know they can keep doing it. It must have worked because many titles have been re-released throughout the lifetime of DVD.

I personally only check them out when a movie is good enough that I want to know more. This is rare for me however.

Universal Canada's VP told us that the average Canadian watches approximately 46 minutes of extras on their DVDs. And that includes rentals. For some unknown reason, Quebecers watch 63 minutes on average.

Warner Canada's VP concurred, and said that extras are a very powerful anti-piracy tool for them. Pirates don't pirate extras, so the extras aren't available online and therefore people are more inclined to buy the discs. Furthermore, they make more money by providing a version of the DVD with the extras. For example, they sold a large number of the 2-disc special edition of 300 on DVD, despite the fact that a much cheaper non-SE version was released on the very same day. In fact, for some titles, the special edition version can sell almost as many copies as the much cheaper version.

An interesting comment was also made: Extras stroke the egos of the directors. Some directors basically demand that space on discs be allocated for extras, and in fact now document their movie making process specifically with the DVD extras in mind.

So the bottom line is that extras are very important to the studios... because they are very important to many consumers, and to some of those involved in making the movie too.

Personally, I prefer picture and sound quality above all extra features. With that said, I really enjoy the special collector's editions of releases. I guess this is part of the collector's mentality in me.

I think that the inclusion of DVD/HD DVD/Blu Ray special features influences the purchase decision more so than the need or desire to watch them.

Taking a longer term strategy on the format, with the popularity of Digital Distribution taking hold, bonus features, interactivity is a differentiator on the product that allows studios to charge a premium for.

As long as the bonus features do not interfere with the movie, or increase load times for some special splash screen, it has an increased perceived value regardless if they are watched.

Normally I do not watch the extra features, but on occasion, when I really enjoyed a movie, I want to see/experience more. The movie I would want to see extra features on may not be for others, but if it's there I'm a happy consumer.

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

I agree (well, I'd say more like 90%) but us AVSers are an odd, atypical bunch ;) That's why I specifically asked about the entire DVD buying population.

I think if you sold DVDs that only played the movie when inserted (no trailers no menus) most people would choose them over the DVDs we have today.

I like trailers (skippable please), and sometimes the menus are cool, but extras like directors commentary are rarely used in my house.

My personal analysis

Period purchasing DVD and/or HD-DVDs: 10 years

Time spent viewing extras: 0 minutes

What *Percentage of ALL Consumers* Care About Special Features?
It doesn't matter.
Disney wants added value content, so guess what the 800 lb gorilla in the HT room is going too get...

I think if you sold DVDs that only played the movie when inserted (no trailers no menus) most people would choose them over the DVDs we have today.
Warner discs are like that.

I tried to watch a few U-control PiP features but they were boring and I didn't see anything new that wasn't already available in the EXTRA on the disc without PiP.
Most people buy discs for movies, not to explore the relms of picture making of the film itself EXCEPT maybe on a few blockbusters like Star Wars, LOTR, Transformers, etc.
The general public won't care about the EXTRA'S.


Also, anyone here actually watched or enjoyed the DVD-ROM portion of their SD DVD on their PC ?

Im not sure what exactly "special features" the OP was refering to, but here is how I break it down what I watch on average.

Deleted scenes- 95% of the time.
Directors commentary/The making of- 10% of the time
Special features like games/interactive quizes- NEVER

I do however love the newer menu interfaces that HDM has to offer. The rest I couldn't care less about.

Warner discs are like that.
I agree. It's nice inserting a disc, taking your seat and the movie plays with no advertising or bull in between.

After buying several HD DVDs w/o special features and a generic menu, special features are nice, but SD special features look like crap. Some are even windowboxed like outtakes or deleted scenes. Overall imo it's better to have sd special features than nothing, considering the price of some HDM movies.

i never use them but thats just me.

It doesn't matter.
Disney wants added value content, so guess what the 800 lb gorilla in the HT room is going too get...

Yeah, it doesn't matter. If you don't like extras, don't watch them. Some like them and some don't. If you leave them off, the people that like extras aren't happy, but those who don't like extras can still be happy if they're on there. If people didn't care about extras, they wouldn't be producing them.

I don't listen to foreign language tracks for English films, or English dubs for foreign films. I also don't view subtitles on English films. However, I'm not going to call for their dismissal just because I don't use them.

\
Warner Canada's VP concurred, and said that extras are a very powerful anti-piracy tool for them. Pirates don't pirate extras, so the extras aren't available online and therefore people are more inclined to buy the discs. \

Universal is on crack.

People don't pirate the extras because they don't want them. If they wanted them, they would pirate them.

It's a lot like having a semi lot filled with semis with keys in them, and saying, "The criminals only steal the semi but leave the semi trailers, and they have to buy the trailers from us, therefore people are less inclined to steal them."

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

I have had an XA2 for 7 months. I have 50 HD DVDs. I have not once used a PiP feature, or a web enabled feature. I do like being able to update firmware via network connection, but my new bd30 was just as easy to burn a firmware update CD for.

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

96.83% of statistics are total BS. What survey did you do to get that 100%?

I'm an HD-DVD owner and don't care too much about PiP and web connectivity. Sure they are nice to have, but my primary interest is in the movie.

Release after release after release has the usual how special effects were done, cgi, etc. special features and it gets really old. It's not new anymore.

90% of the time I check out the deleted scenes. I hardly ever check cast interviews, behind the scenes etc. unless its a really techically impressive film(matrix, lotr, Pixar movies etc.)
Commentaries are useless imo unless its for the deleted scenes with the developer explaining why it was cut out. Though I must admit I learned a few interesting things from them like.. did you know they hired a magician to do some of the special effects in Bram Stokers Dracula?
Movies with music videos are nice too.

Hey, since blu-ray won is there still any reason for these "less is more because we can't pull more off" threads? :rolleyes:

Look at how well multi disc dvd sets sell.

If people weren't interested why put out two disc sets where the second disk is just bonus features ?

I love making of , director and cast audio tracks , interviews , and deleted scenes

I don't really care for some of the other stuff. But I can tell you if a disc has basicly no extra content I wont pick it up . I know they are just going to re release it with better content

I swear these thread titles are getting worse and worse

I must be the exception as I rarely ever watch any extras or special features. On an historic or factual based flick I sometimes watch a documentary or two. Most of the time I am not interested in watching how they did the special effects or watching the drivel where the director sucks up to the actors and vice versa.

I can see why the studios want to push this however. I guess there are people who really get into this stuff and if those extra features will help sell a film then have at it. I was one of the weird ones searching out Superbit titles and stuff with the extras on an extra disc to get the best PQ possible (ala Gladiator 2 disc edition). I would rather have no extras and the best PQ/AQ possible.

Again I suspect I may not be the average buyer for this stuff...

By "Special Features" or "Bonus Content" I mean anything that's not the movie itself.

A lot of you are vocal about not really caring about special features. Since the "format war" was focused a lot on PiP this and web enabled that, it's curious that many seem to imply they didn't care either way.

If a sizable chunk of AVSers don't care about this stuff, then what is your average consumer going to say?

For me: a movie I love + tons of bonus content = purchase. Everything else = rental. The Blade Runner set, for example, is my favorite purchase just because it's so jam-packed with goodies. While other movies I like I refuse to buy because they can't even meet the DVD version when it comes to features.

I fully realize that special features are more suited to people who like "film" (as an art) rather than those who just like to watch movies (and there's nothing wrong with just wanting to watch a movie and not caring about the process or director's thoughts or whatever).

But again, I can't help but think that this bonus features stuff is just bullet-points to put on a box and the truth is that most people really don't care (even if they don't realize it). Same could be said for a lot of things about HDM right now...

I swear these thread titles are getting worse and worse

Best I could think of... it's to the point, at least. Do you have a better title? I'd happily change it if I could (and if you truly could think of something better).

Hey, since blu-ray won is there still any reason for these "less is more because we can't pull more off" threads? :rolleyes:

Hey Mr. Defensive, this has nothing to do with whether Blu-ray won or not. These "features" are heavily touted by both sides and I'm wondering whether any of this matters to Mr. $39 player from Wal-Mart.

This is exactly why I'm happy this format bull**** is ending, so people can stop viewing the word as red vs. blue even when it has nothing to do with anything.

[QUOTE=Padriac;12743865]By "Special Features" or "Bonus Content" I mean anything that's not the movie itself.

A lot of you are vocal about not really caring about special features. Since the "format war" was focused a lot on PiP this and web enabled that, it's curious that many seem to imply they didn't care either way.

If a sizable chunk of AVSers don't care about this stuff, then what is your average consumer going to say?

For me: a movie I love + tons of bonus content = purchase. Everything else = rental. The Blade Runner set, for example, is my favorite purchase just because it's so jam-packed with goodies. While other movies I like I refuse to buy because they can't even meet the DVD version when it comes to features.


What I do find interesting is seeing what an actor/actress did in the past, history etc. Sometimes after watching a film I will go and google the actor/actress/director to see that they did in their career etc. If I could do this from a Blu-Ray machine without leaving my couch that would be pretty cool. For most of the "special features" on my discs though I could live without 95% of them. The only box set I sought out was the Dawn Of The Dead box set so that I had all three versions of the movie. I am a huge fan of the movie. I watched one special feature and didn't even watch it all the way through. I have watched all 3 versions of the film though,:cool:

Best I could think of... it's to the point, at least. Do you have a better title? I'd happily change it if I could (and if you truly could think of something better).

Sure . . .

"What Percentage Do You Think Consumers are Interested in Special features?"

Best I could think of... it's to the point, at least. Do you have a better title? I'd happily change it if I could (and if you truly could think of something better).
How could anyone answer for any percentage of consumers except the responder him/herself.
So how about " do dvd special features influence your puchasing decisions" or "how often do you watch dvd special features"

Hey Mr. Defensive, this has nothing to do with whether Blu-ray won or not. These "features" are heavily touted by both sides and I'm wondering whether any of this matters to Mr. $39 player from Wal-Mart.

This is exactly why I'm happy this format bull**** is ending, so people can stop viewing the word as red vs. blue even when it has nothing to do with anything.

I hear you man...I understand what you're asking and I didn't see anything biased towards red or blue in it...but then again, I'm not looking for it and that's all some people are looking for. I was purple, heard the warner news and sold my hd-dvd stuff on ebay...no big deal for me, I just like movies, could care less what format they're in.

To answer your question, I rarely watch any special features unless it's a movie I just can't get enough of after watching it and I'll watch the outtakes or deleted scenes (usually on comedies), but after that, I never watch them again. I don't think I've ever listened to a commentary track and could care less about PIP, and I'm a HT enthusiast!

It's like when I was getting ready to buy the samsung bd-p1400 blu-ray player, all I read were of problems and bugs with the player...until I realized that 98% of those complaints were with profile compatibility/PIP/special features, etc. After some firmware upgrades, the movies played fine....that's all I really cared about. I bought the player and haven't had any trouble with it at all.

Hey Mr. Defensive, this has nothing to do with whether Blu-ray won or not. These "features" are heavily touted by both sides and I'm wondering whether any of this matters to Mr. $39 player from Wal-Mart.

This is exactly why I'm happy this format bull**** is ending, so people can stop viewing the word as red vs. blue even when it has nothing to do with anything.

Isn't the bottom line here not if we want them, but whether or not they're gonna slow down the works if the disks have them?

If BD had them from day one, we wouldn't be having this discussion, you'd simply pass on what doesn't interest you, and those who did care would have fun with them.

If Disney wants something to charge $39.00 for a movie with, they will. Better it be advanced content than a steel-tin with doll on top.

Sure . . .

"What Percentage Do You Think Consumers are Interested in Special features?"

I wouldn't say this is better... it isn't even grammatically correct. (the word "percentage" must refer to something otherwise it is meaningless. In your sentence it refers to nothing).

I highlighted "off ALL Consumers" so people would realize I was not talking about the statistically small AVS crowd, and it still didn't work. But I still like hearing everybody's thoughts on Special Features.

How could anyone answer for any percentage of consumers except the responder him/herself.
So how about " do dvd special features influence your puchasing decisions" or "how often do you watch dvd special features"

It's just an estimation. For example I realize that I personally love to listen to Commentary tracks yet at the same time I realize that very few "average" consumers would ever listen to them. Sometimes I feel that the AVS crowd doesn't realize how different it is from the rest of the movie watchers of the world.

Essentially I'm asking the AVS crowd whether THEY think that OTHER, NON AVS people care about special features, or even notice them at all, and thus asking whether HDM building a marketing campaign around them is just asking for failure. I think we at least agree that the average consumer needs to be marketed to in a different way than the AV enthusiast, but now I'm starting to doubt if people recognize even that.

Isn't the bottom line here not if we want them, but whether or not they're gonna slow down the works if the disks have them?

If BD had them from day one, we wouldn't be having this discussion, you'd simply pass on what doesn't interest you, and those who did care would have fun with them.

No. We would still be discussing whether focusing on these features in an attempt to achieve mass market penetration is a failed strategy, just like we're doing now. We'd still be doing this if every studio switched to HD DVD, if Blu-ray had every HD DVD feature since day 1, or if Sony punched me in the balls and stole my girlfriend. This is not about Red vs. Blue. This is about mass market penetration. When you get that through your head, you're welcome back to the discussion.

Padriac:

Your thread title is asking a question that NO ONE can answer. You want the percentage for ALL consumers.

Who the hell is going to have THAT data?

All people are doing is posting their likes and dislikes . . .

For the 5th time:(

Considering the high price of HDM I expect Studios to include many EXTRAS (Do you hear me FOX ?).

Personally... I almost always watch deleted scenes. I always watch outtakes. Anything else is hit or miss and mostly miss.

That said... regardless of you or I or we... clearly the HD DVD AND the Blu ray developers think we want these features. It's all well and good for Blu ray consumers to say those aren't important features... but clearly Blu ray developers think they are important, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about the new profiles coming to include more interactive features.

I agree those features are a non-factor to me... and played no part on my picking an HD medium... but someone seems to think it's important, since HD DVD came out of the gate with these features and Blu ray has been scrambling to add them.

I have both formats, and I haven never watched those PiP stuff even once on my HD DVDs.

Padriac:

Your thread title is asking a question that NO ONE can answer. You want the percentage for ALL consumers.

Who the hell is going to have THAT data?

All people are doing is posting their likes and dislikes . . .

For the 5th time:(

Obviously I am not looking for an *answer*, I am looking for an estimation. A guess. Is this not what the studios are forced to do? Business is nothing if not statistical projection and estimation.

We all sit around pretending we "know" that company A got X amount of money from Company B to do this or that, but I can't ask a simple question about how much the general public cares about special features?

I can tell you that I love special features, but the entire rest of my family doesn't, and most of my friends don't either. This allows me to make a small guess. I'm sure everybody on AVS can do the same, and perhaps we can come to some rough estimate. "By looking at responses on this forum it seems like a small percentage care about special features, something less than 25%" or something like that. If that estimate is really low, then maybe the BDA (or HD DVD group) should end this focus on features people don't care about, at least from a marketing perspective. Personally I think this may be the case even though I personally love special features. (yes it's possible to come to a conclusion at odds with one's own opinion).

We all sit around doing armchair marketing... I'm just trying to start with some semblence of data.

And even if that's all pointless, it's still fun to hear everybody's personal opinions on Special Features especially in the context of these "next gen" special features. It's not fun to have it derailed into some Red vs. Blue thing for the 1000th time (as if there isn't enough threads for that).

That said... regardless of you or I or we... clearly the HD DVD AND the Blu ray developers think we want these features. It's all well and good for Blu ray consumers to say those aren't important features... but clearly Blu ray developers think they are important, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about the new profiles coming to include more interactive features.


I read somewhere that the most important thing you can put on a DVD to increase sales is "2-Disc Set". What's on this 2nd disc doesn't really matter... just that there is a sticker that says "2-Disc Set". Thus studios fill a 2nd disc with whatever just to put that sticker there and justify charging a bit more. So it's not that the features themselves matter. So the studios THINK special features matter, but in reality its just people grabbing what they think is the better "value" even if they don't care.

But if you focus your whole marketing campaign on these features it may mean trouble. DVDs marketing was mostly about "being better" than VHS, not any specific thing like "DIRECTOR'S COMMENTARY ON EVERY DISC".

It's all rather complicated, this marketing stuff.

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

I own HD-DVD as well as Blu-Ray and I could care less about extras. In my life watching DVD and HD the only extras I have ever watched are on the Kubrick DVD box and the commentary on the Matrix by Cornell West. Other than that I have never had any interest in extras. Put the time, effort and capacity towards pristine video transfer and the highest bitrate encode possible on as few discs as possible.

Well, I think a lot of people care about extra footage(behind the scenes, background stories, outtakes... etc)

But other craziness, like an in movie game or something like that... forget it.

Give me the trailer in 1080p, a commentary or two if the director and/or producer and/or actors are interesting and articulate (rare) or something interesting from a film critic or historian (Ebert, etc.), but no need for PIP with a talking head. Deleted scenes if they are interesting, a gag reel if particularly funny, and maybe a featurette, if not the typical studio drivel (HBO First Look, etc.). And documentaries, if appropriate (Black Hawk Down, etc.). You can leave out pretty much everything else, particularly if it remotely impacts the feature itself in terms of video or audio quality. No need for games or any of that stuff. I've never watched anything about special effects either.

I love the added bonus content. My LOTR special editions are my most prized because of all the extra content.
It is one of the areas where BD is seriously lacking.

This consumer does not care about special features.

Personally I might agree with you. I rarely delve into the special features on my discs (though whenever I do I usually get annoyed that there aren't more; but that's my bias having collected Criterion laser discs that had REAL extra content not the token stuff you get on most DVD's).

But here's why I don't get if that is really true (and by "really true" I mean there must be a ton of market research available to the studios on this)...

If consumers don't care about it, why do Studios waste millions of dollars producing it? I guarantee you the average studio wouldn't waste a dime or minute on it if they had proof it didn't buy them anything in sales or the price they can charge. There would be a a few exceptions with movies by powerful directors who personally want a medium for all the extra stuff about their films, but most directors wouldn't have the juice to get the studios to humor them if it was just for their vanity.

My personal guess is the data shows that consumers don't really use the extras but have an expectation that they are getting them. That duality is pretty common -- a consumer doesn't need or use something but expects to get it anyway and notices its absense. The studios make a point of promoting all the extras on the packaging. They most know that consumers are skimming the packaging then, thinking they are getting a better deal because they are getting a movie plus all the "free" bonus stuff. And I bet a consumer who reads a package that just lists the movie inherently thinks they are getting "jipped" even if they will never get around to exploring any of it...

I love the added bonus content. My LOTR special editions are my most prized because of all the extra content.
It is one of the areas where BD is seriously lacking.

Blu-ray may be lacking in the online content or the PiP feature, but as far as extended scenes or special editions of the movie they are included with almost every one released.

Of the thousand or so dvds I've watched, I viewed the extra features on maybe 7. And 3 of those were the LOTR trilogy.

^^Same here. Talk about a niche market. It isn't just about the story or movie being good. It is simply about time. Most who watch a two hour movie are not going to take or have the time to watch the extras.

I very rarely view any of the special features on DVDs and only once or twice have I listened to the commentary track. Given that studios have very limited resources, particularly as relates to future HD disc releases, I'd very much prefer that they devote said resources to releasing as many titles as possible in HD and just skip the special features completely.

The key thing about your question is that you asked if a switch was flipped and nobody knew they existed. I agree that most people don't watch the extras (based on experience of myself and people I know), but that doesn't mean that people won't still demand them.

I personally prefer picture and sound quality to extras. However I don't think that studios could market HDM by simply saying it is better picture and sound and convince America to hop on at a higher price. They also need to advertise all the extras to try and prove that you get more tangible things when you buy HDM.

I am a total fan of Blade Runner type extras. I personally can't understand the desire for interactivity while I have a wife and kids around. If it results in job security for some creative type in LA that might be OK. Just make sure that this junk does not have a negative affect on disc start-ups. I;m glad I have a PS3, but I feel sorry for those with another player that takes forever to load a Disney movie. What is the point?

It's not really about how much "extras" on HDM are actually used. It's about distinguishing your product. Regardless of how you feel about BD vs HD-DVD, the really uphill battle is with DVD and any features you can bundle to differentiate all the better. The average consumer is having a hard time seeing the benefits of HDM over upscaled DVD, so things like PiP, web features, etc. whether used or not, put the idea in consumers mind that HDM may have more to offer.

What percentage of people care about special features?

Does it really matter? They put those extras on the disc and people will spend their money on the "Special Extended Directors Ultimate Edition." The perception by the consumer is that they are getting some type of extra or bonus material with it and even though a small percantage of people will actually watch it, they still buy it because of thos special features. If people didn't buy them, you would not see these double and tripple dips by studios.

Many of you who say that all you care about is the movie will be some of the first to complain when they release a bare disc with only the movie. Don't bother denying it, I too very seldom watch the extras but I feel cheated when the disc is only the movie.

Over 30% of the people that purchased the HD DVD of Transformers used it to connect to the internet within the first week of release. I would say a new technology like that showing that much use already is a good sign that people are interested in these features.

Additionaly I'm sure that studios are looking at the marketing value opening up to them with this new technology bring live interactive features into home entertainment.

Extra content is more of a value add to sell consumers on buying Special edition films. The average consumer (NOT THE AVS CROWD) feels a lot better when they feel they got something for nothing. Extras are that something for nothing.

I know lots of people that when presented with a choice between the standard release and the special edition they buy the special edition cause they feel they are getting more for their money. I would say 90% of those people never even watch any of the extras on the disc.

The reason this is important to HDM is that you need to consume to feel like they are getting more then just the movie. The apathy towards HDM from the general public has been that they don't feel they are getting their moneys worth from buying into HDM.

Disney sees this and thats why they are so hot and heavy for getting BD-J going.

b) Is the BDA smarter than we think with this whole Profile system? If over half of people don't care a lick about special features, than anything beyond profile 1.0 is pointless for them. Profile 1.0 could essentially become Blu-ray's "discount" profile with super-cheap players. The kind of people who were buying them for sub $99 at Wal-Mart would never even know they are missing something. They would buy Blu-ray discs, the movie would work: they'd be happy.

I disagree. All it does is add more confusion. Additionally, most of the profile specs require certain hardware requirements. Ultimately you are pigeon holed if you choose a lower profile.

Lets face it, average consumers dont want to do a weeks worth of research to buy a movie player. With DVD, they bought a player and it played a DVD that showed up on their TV. I would also venture to say that most people dont know what to do with the word progressive as it relates to playback. Imagine how pissed people would get when later on they want to enjoy more and cant.

I disagree. All it does is add more confusion. Additionally, most of the profile specs require certain hardware requirements. Ultimately you are pigeon holed if you choose a lower profile.

Lets face it, average consumers dont want to do a weeks worth of research to buy a movie player. With DVD, they bought a player and it played a DVD that showed up on their TV. I would also venture to say that most people dont know what to do with the word progressive as it relates to playback. Imagine how pissed people would get when later on they want to enjoy more and cant.

Plus there's no real premium in adding secondary decoders and an ethernet port. Hopefully profile 2.0 won't be marketed that way.

I'm not sure about all consumers, but among HD-DVD owners on AVS:

100% Care About PiP And Web Connectivity

You're speaking for me?

I am an HD DVD owner and I hate PIP and really don't care about the Web connectivity at this point.

I can give a rats A$$ about special features. Really I can. I want the movie in the highest bite rate with the best audio that is all I care about. I don't care about pip/internet connectivity, commentaries etc. Which is why I can give a crap about the special features of either blu-ray, sd-dvd or hd-dvd. Just give me the movie at it's very best. Plain and simple.

And please to say all hd-dvd owners care about that is a freaking pipe dream and attempted slam at blu-ray. Yeah sure the day.

42.5%

This is just a simple question, but it has an important bearing on HDM, mass market consumers, AV enthusiasts... basically a lot of things:

Imagine if I were to flick a switch that made every DVD player in the world simply refuse to play any and all bonus materials. In fact, all special features are just quietly "absent" from the disc, so if you didn't know they were supposed to be there you would never even know you were missing them.

What percentage of the DVD buying public would ever notice?

Personally, I think less than half. Maybe as little as 25%.

Most people simply don't care. And I say this as somebody who LOVES special features and refuses to buy bare-bones editions of discs unless that's my only choice. But let's face facts: the moms/grandmas buying DVDs for $5 while they grocery shop are not giving a single thought as to whether the DVD has this or that special feature. It's these people who drove DVD to what it is.

I just wonder if:

a) Is pushing all sorts of fancy special features as a means of pushing HDM a flawed tactic? Are people wowed by "interactive games" when they got a PS3 or Wii or 360 sitting right there?

b) Is the BDA smarter than we think with this whole Profile system? If over half of people don't care a lick about special features, than anything beyond profile 1.0 is pointless for them. Profile 1.0 could essentially become Blu-ray's "discount" profile with super-cheap players. The kind of people who were buying them for sub $99 at Wal-Mart would never even know they are missing something. They would buy Blu-ray discs, the movie would work: they'd be happy.

Just something to ponder while I sit and wait for Criterion to start releasing on HDM.

I don't have a link, but I remember reading a while back, that the studios did a fair amount of research on this and concluded that roughly 1/2 of the general public likes extra features. Who do you think buys all those Special Editions? I've talked to people who watch every single second of extras, and find the Easter eggs. I'm not one of them, but they are out there. If all people cared about was PQ, Superbit would have been a smashing success. It wasn't. As far as interactive features goes, it might be a nice hook for future customers. You are going to have to do something to differentiate BD from DVD. We'll see.
J

It totally depends on the movie. If it's a franchise I love and can't get enough of, I'll watch every damn special feature on the disc. Transformers was one of those discs, 2 discs actually. :)

Yet another "don't care much for extras" AVS member signing in here.

I like the movies that they made...not the stuff they cut out.

I have a big dvd collection and can count on one hand the number of times I've viewed any extras. It's hard enough to get the time to actually watch all the MOVIES I want to see, even in my collection, let alone wade through all the extras on top of it. My goodness, leads me to wonder just how much time all these xtras-loving folks have no their hands.

love extras if you mean deleted scenes, alternate endings, directors commentaries.

web content i could live without and pip sounds interesting but i've never seen any that i liked more than just listening to the commentary without the pip. most of the time it's just someone saying the exact same or less.

To respond to the OP, I personally do not care about special features unless it is a movie that I absolutely LOVE. Most of my DVDs have special features, and I've only watched a handful of them. I don't see the need to, unless as I said it is one of my favorite movies. I watch the Donnie Darko special features, because it is a movie that I want to keep experiencing and finding more and more questions and answers to. For your average movie, I don't feel the attraction.

On that note, however, I do feel that it is in fact a good thing for DVDs to have the special features, because chances are each movie on the market is SOMEONE'S favorite, and they will want to watch the special features. But for the mass audience, I would have to guess that most people don't watch special features unless they have a certain attraction to the movie that is more than just wanting to watch actual movie for a couple hours.

So, to the OP, good post and thoughts. Whenever I personally would hear the arguments for HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray having to do with special features, I would just tune out because I personally didn't care.

how could any of us possibly know the answer to the thread's question. Just mere speculation. That being said, if people didn't care about special features, why were there so many dvd re-releases and special editions with extras? If people didn't care you would assume they wouldn't buy them, but that's not the case.

Yet another "don't care much for extras" AVS member signing in here.

I like the movies that they made...not the stuff they cut out.

I have a big dvd collection and can count on one hand the number of times I've viewed any extras. It's hard enough to get the time to actually watch all the MOVIES I want to see, even in my collection, let alone wade through all the extras on top of it. My goodness, leads me to wonder just how much time all these xtras-loving folks have no their hands.

Quoted for truth. In agreement.

Except for rare exceptions of classic movies or documentaries, I could care less about special features. If it went away, I wouldn't mind it. I have only repurchased a DVD (double dip) if it had added scenes or if the improved the picture quality. I have hundreds of DVDs and I have probably only viewed extra features for maybe a couple dozen DVDs. And of those, I probably didn't finish watching most of them.

My take on special features has always been if they are there fine , if not oh well.

Web connectivity is a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. Firstly a lot of SD DVD have had web connected features for DVD ROM for a long time and I never thought much of those and second my internet connection is on the other side of the house from my HT set up. If I need firmware updates I'll just copy them to disc.

I just want one format that plays the movie well. Everything else is just superfluous.

how could any of us possibly know the answer to the thread's question. Just mere speculation. That being said, if people didn't care about special features, why were there so many dvd re-releases and special editions with extras? If people didn't care you would assume they wouldn't buy them, but that's not the case.

In a lot of those cases the movie itself has been upgraded, remastered or restored. That may be why people buy them. Besides I don't think anybody here is saying NOBODY cares about special features. Some do some don't.

This is just a simple question, but it has an important bearing on HDM, mass market consumers, AV enthusiasts... basically a lot of things:

Imagine if I were to flick a switch that made every DVD player in the world simply refuse to play any and all bonus materials. In fact, all special features are just quietly "absent" from the disc, so if you didn't know they were supposed to be there you would never even know you were missing them.

What percentage of the DVD buying public would ever notice?

Personally, I think less than half. Maybe as little as 25%.

Most people simply don't care. And I say this as somebody who LOVES special features and refuses to buy bare-bones editions of discs unless that's my only choice. But let's face facts: the moms/grandmas buying DVDs for $5 while they grocery shop are not giving a single thought as to whether the DVD has this or that special feature. It's these people who drove DVD to what it is.

I just wonder if:

a) Is pushing all sorts of fancy special features as a means of pushing HDM a flawed tactic? Are people wowed by "interactive games" when they got a PS3 or Wii or 360 sitting right there?

b) Is the BDA smarter than we think with this whole Profile system? If over half of people don't care a lick about special features, than anything beyond profile 1.0 is pointless for them. Profile 1.0 could essentially become Blu-ray's "discount" profile with super-cheap players. The kind of people who were buying them for sub $99 at Wal-Mart would never even know they are missing something. They would buy Blu-ray discs, the movie would work: they'd be happy.

Just something to ponder while I sit and wait for Criterion to start releasing on HDM.

I love special bonus features and have actually been disspointed byt he lack of them on many BD and some HD discs. I love the 300 PIP and stuff. Back int he day I watched the bonus features on all the Bond Sean Connery DVD's they were upwards of 45 minutes each. Very interesting info. Same the the Anniversay Alien 9 disc set, watched all the bonus discs. some movies the bonus features are better thtan the movie. I like what HD-DVD is doing with the new capabilities, too bad we have to wait a year or more to get the same out of BD.

Is this goign to be the new blu ray line ? Who cares about content , no one wants it anyway.

If this is the way they are headed we are all in trouble

why were there so many dvd re-releases and special editions with extras?

Greedy movie exec's who want to bleed out the consumers money while making them obscenly rich in the process. Don't you remember the fiasco with the kill bill vol 1 & 2, and the chairman coming out and saying yeah we are going to have like 6 different versions etc...... Lets not get started on the George Lucas fiasco with the Star Wars movies.

It is all about money.

Is this goign to be the new blu ray line ? Who cares about content , no one wants it anyway.

If this is the way they are headed we are all in trouble

Considering the profile 2 demos at CES, I'd say the BDA is on board with extra content. I just hope they see it as something that should have always been there, instead of something that we should pay a premium for. There are probably a lot of potential BD consumers like myself who were waiting for a "complete" platform. The PS3 is certainly future-proof, but I really think having a finished standalone product is more marketable. I know if a well priced 2.0 player is available this year, it will replace my PS3.

Maybe I will watch a gag reel from time to time. But I really do not care for special features at all. Give me better PQ & SQ.

I like listening to commentary and seeing deleted scenes. Other than that, I wish they'd do away with the rest of the features and use the space for the best possible audio and video.

I actively dislike:

"Previews" - I don't think I'm alone in this one, especially when you can't skip them (are you listening, Disney??) The worst part is that the previews will be completely out of date infinitely longer than not. I suppose they might be interesting in some odd historical fashion.
"Fancy" menus with cute animations that I have to wait through or skip past (when that option is offered) every single time I watch. Even if it was cute the first time, it's not going to be cute the 20th time.
"Games" - Until they put a full-fledged PC in my DVD/HD/BD player, there's no way I'm going to get a game worth more than 15 seconds to check on out of sheer curiosity. And don't I already have a PC and/or game console much better suited to the task? Plus, we all know that the amount of time and money a studio could reasonably put into any such game on a video release will always be minuscule compared to even a $15 shareware title.
"Web-enabled content" - First of all, most of the same arguments against "games" apply to this stuff as well. Secondly, the web is transient, therefore, anything of this sort on the disc will likely not work or be around 10 years from now. I still get exactly what I expected and paid for on any of my DVD's purchased in 1998. For that matter, the same is true of any VHS tape I'm still holding on to from 1988. I believe the chances are practically zero that the same can be true of any "web-enabled content". And even if I didn't care about that content or its transience, I really would rather not pay for the studio to do the work required to get it in there in the first place.


Thanks for your valuable time and consideration. I now turn the floor over to the next speaker.

I like listening to commentary and seeing deleted scenes. Other than that, I wish they'd do away with the rest of the features and use the space for the best possible audio and video.



Well audio is probably as good as it's going to get for awhile unless they start re-mixing just for HDM which means added cost.

Video is technically compressed, but with your average display sizes these day, I don't think there's much room for improvement there, especially when you consider that the biggest limiting factor in video quality is the transfers. If the transfer is crappy, you can through as many bits as you want at it, it's still crappy.

Scrap all this internet connectivity garbage and sell me one of those 'unfinished' Blu-Rays for $150 so I can replace my HD-A3 and move on without taking a second mortgage on my home.

--- CHAS

I'm spoiled with the special features on hd-dvd .......
You learn so much more about the movie , like it alot ...
why step down in features ???

Bob

"Fancy" menus with cute animations that I have to wait through or skip past (when that option is offered) every single time I watch. Even if it was cute the first time, it's not going to be cute the 20th time.


Exactly.

Studios want people to buy the DVDs. That's how they make the most money. And yet such menus are not made with a sensible approach to someone actually OWNING the DVD. The reason anyone would OWN a DVD rather than rent is for multiple viewings. And it is exactly multiple viewings that make those "fancy" animated menus so aggravating to sit through.

Think studios...think!

Is this goign to be the new blu ray line ? Who cares about content , no one wants it anyway.

If this is the way they are headed we are all in trouble

+ Plus 2

Ah , shucks we cant meet the standards we promised so bag it ...
Some question ....

You should have made this a poll. My response would have been:

I could care less about special features. I want the movie and would rather they use the space on DVDs for a higher bitrate rather than waste it on junk. I do enjoy outtakes on comedy movies though, that is about it.

Is this goign to be the new blu ray line ? Who cares about content , no one wants it anyway.

If this is the way they are headed we are all in trouble

+ Plus 2

Ah , shucks we cant meet the standards we promised so bag it ...
Some question ....

Please see all replies to Timothy Ramzyk and Lee Stewart

I disagree. All it does is add more confusion. Additionally, most of the profile specs require certain hardware requirements. Ultimately you are pigeon holed if you choose a lower profile.

Lets face it, average consumers dont want to do a weeks worth of research to buy a movie player. With DVD, they bought a player and it played a DVD that showed up on their TV. I would also venture to say that most people dont know what to do with the word progressive as it relates to playback. Imagine how pissed people would get when later on they want to enjoy more and cant.

But that's just the thing. It appears that consumers like buying discs with "special features" but they never actually watch these special features. And this is essentially what Profile 1.0 players do: the movie still works and basic special features still work, but the "fancy" special features simply don't even appear on the menu.

Another way to put it: pretend everybody had Blu-ray players instead of DVD players: What percentage would ever even notice whether they had a profile 1.0 player or not? Sure all the AVSers would, but out in the real world I'm guessing most would never know or care.

Again: I'm pro-special features and I'm not advocating they be eliminated (although I see to be in the minority with that)... I'm just wondering how successful HDM can be if all it's main selling points beyond the obvious better picture quality are a bunch of stuff the vast majority doesn't care about.

I've been talking to a few "normal" folks with decent set-ups about BD/HD DVD and what they would need and a common question is "why the hell do I need an internet connection to the player?". When I explain it I always get a disinterested shrug.

I tired PiP on Rush Hour 3 BD and it was pointless, annoying and boring, really it was. I just watched the movie and tried it. Why do I now want to watch the movie with the PiP box blocking part of the picture that is still in HD? The audio is also only 2.0.

Studios want people to buy the DVDs. That's how they make the most money. And yet such menus are not made with a sensible approach to someone actually OWNING the DVD. The reason anyone would OWN a DVD rather than rent is for multiple viewings. And it is exactly multiple viewings that make those "fancy" animated menus so aggravating to sit through.

I think it's funny how "interactive menus" is listed as a "feature" on the back of every disc out there. :rolleyes:

I don't think I'd get a lot of disagreement if I said that the great majority of users don't see animated menus as an "added value" feature. Assuming that's true, you have to wonder why the studios keep bothering with this. It costs them money ("talent", materials, etc.) to create these, yet there's no perceived value by the customer. I think it's a throwback to the early days of DVD when people were impressed by these things - it just never went away as it should have (sort of the equivalent of blinking HTML in old web pages).

It's like the guys who create these things are just trying to impress each other, and we're footing the bill.

Whenever I get a release that has a very simple menu, or, even better, just starts playing the movie immediately (the recent Blade Runner release and the last release of Star Trek 2 come to mind), I immediately think, "this is classy - the guys actually cared about the movie".

i just like the movie and the trailers

i just like the movie and the trailers

Rebel!

Shouldnt this be easy to figure out? I saw multiple editions of Superbad, Shrek 3, 300, Hairspray, Transformers and other DVDs. How did those sell (at a ~$5 premium typically) vs. the regular dvd?

Get the answer to that and you'll see how popular they are.

Odds are, this only matters to diehard fans of the movie. That's why star wars gets resold in myriad editions, why multiple LOTR versions were released and sold well, but why people generally yawn at special versions/extras of movies they may enjoy but aren't "into".

If people didn't buy them, studios wouldn't offer it. And if they didn't sell, retailers wouldn't carry multiple SKUs (which they supposedly hate in the first place).

Whenever I get a release that has a very simple menu, or, even better, just starts playing the movie immediately (the recent Blade Runner release and the last release of Star Trek 2 come to mind), I immediately think, "this is classy - the guys actually cared about the movie".

I feel the opposite. I'd rather get a menu before the disc starts playing; I want the chance to set subtitles & audio settings before the movie plays. (I usually set subtitles on).

Shouldnt this be easy to figure out? I saw multiple editions of Superbad, Shrek 3, 300, Hairspray, Transformers and other DVDs. How did those sell (at a ~$5 premium typically) vs. the regular dvd?


What a lot of us seem to be thinking is that
a) People love to buy discs with "special features" on them...
b) These same people never, ever watch a single special feature or even click on the special features menu.

Crazy, right? But the more I think about it the more true it seems. That's why I worded the question as I did and didn't simply ask if discs themselves should have special features or not (that's a completely separate issue...)

So it's like we can live in a world where discs have special features but the players don't actually need to be able to play them. This is like an exaggerated version of what Profile 1.0 Blu-ray players do, so that's why it's especially interesting.

I find the non-intuitiveness of it all incredibly fascinating...

Didn't Paramount state that 30% of all the HD DVD Transformer buyers went to the web enable sites?

I could have swore I read that.

Oh - special features? . . . . . Blade Runner.

I want them on the disc . . . but then, I never watch them (except the deleted scenes).

Movie, PIP commentary track and a "making of" is enough for me. Don't care for Web features at all.

Didn't Paramount state that 30% of all the HD DVD Transformer buyers went to the web enable sites?

I could have swore I read that.


I think I read that, too. I'd attribute that to "I bought this thing that's supposed to work on the web, let's check it out" rather than actual utility, though. If HD DVD or BD 2.0 were to take-off long term, I'd expect those numbers to be a lot closer to 3% for an average release.

jus gimme da movy, da hole movy, n nuttin butt da movy!:D

I want them on the disc . . . but then, I never watch them (except the deleted scenes).

I think you are the perfect representative of the average DVD purchaser. Congratulations!

I take comfort in knowing I bought the most feature-rich version of the DVD because it makes me feel like I got more for my money.

Do I ever really watch them? No.

Universal is on crack.

People don't pirate the extras because they don't want them. If they wanted them, they would pirate them.

It's a lot like having a semi lot filled with semis with keys in them, and saying, "The criminals only steal the semi but leave the semi trailers, and they have to buy the trailers from us, therefore people are less inclined to steal them."
1) Car analogies always suck.
2) I guess that's why nobody buys discs with extras on them then, even with a much cheaper version available.
3) That would make both Warner and Universal that are on crack. (I didn't hear from Paramount or others because they weren't there.)


I'm spoiled with the special features on hd-dvd .......
You learn so much more about the movie , like it alot ...
why step down in features ???
Indeed. When extras are done right, they're great. A good example of this is with the original series for Star Trek (http://www.eugbanana.com/files/Movies/HDDVD/StarTrekHDDVD-628.mov). (Video link)

I watch the movie then turn it off, I could care less about the rest of the stuff on the disc! I have a XA2 for my HD pleasures.

My 2 cents... I hardly ever watch the extras. When I have I found about 95% or more of it was boring crap to me.

On the question of interest in special features it probably needs a poll. For me personally I could care less about the special features. I'll ocasionally check them out. But I do run across people that absolutely check out all the special features /shrug.

Okay, four pages in and here's the summary:

Extras/special features have been nothing but a psychological marketing tactic. Everybody wants them on the disc but very few ever watch them. Those who DO like them (like me) have benefitted through sheer coincidence.

- So what does this mean regarding HDM and the big push for more "advanced" special features? Are people going to want them and not use them just as before?
- Are these new varieties of extra now so far removed from the original movie that people will finally realize they don't care? Or are the new and different enough that people will care more?
- Are profile 1.0 players perfectly viable for most because of the fact that people never watch/use the special features? They can still put them on the discs as "bait" just like always, and nobody will ever notice that their player doesn't play them.
- Can a general "whatever" attitude towards special features be a cause of HD DVDs inability to outsell Blu-ray? (just stating this factually, please don't go all "Red vs. Blue" zealot crazy) Should HD DVD maybe have pushed less on "better special features" and more on other aspects?

- So what does this mean regarding HDM and the big push for more "advanced" special features? Are people going to want them and not use them just as before?
Most likely.

Are these new varieties of extra now so far removed from the original movie that people will finally realize they don't care? Or are the new and different enough that people will care more?
People won't care

- Can a general "whatever" attitude towards special features be a cause of HD DVDs inability to outsell Blu-ray? (just stating this factually, please don't go all "Red vs. Blue" zealot crazy) Should HD DVD maybe have pushed less on "better special features" and more on other aspects?
They definitely should have focused less on HDi and more on "Look how great the movies look and our players are not that expensive!" They often used HDi to counter blu and obviously that didn't work. Special features didn't float DVD to the top, it was the video and sound. I'm pretty sure the same will happen with HDM.

Poll here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=974338)