Are low power analog stations allowed to stay analog after the 2009 shut down?

An AP story says:

"On Feb. 17, 2009, owners of full-power television stations will turn off their old-technology analog signals and broadcast in digital only. Viewers who receive their signals through an antenna who don't have a digital-ready TV will have to buy a converter box."

"But here's the wrinkle: the mandate to go digital applies only to the roughly 1,760 "full-power" stations in the U.S. There are more than 2,900 low-power television stations and about 4,400 signal-relay stations known as "translators" that will not be required to go digital by the deadline."

AP Story (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iiNo8In2FguQeKvOzx4O62OIm1mgD8U1VFPO1)

Low power means like a small town or something? Living in a million plus pop city I don't think there's a low power station here.

Low power means like a small town or something? Living in a million plus pop city I don't think there's a low power station here.
That's not necessarily true. Some foreign language, public access and PBS translators would probably be covered under this. In fact, the larger the area, the more likely you are to have those additional stations.

Low power means like a small town or something? Living in a million plus pop city I don't think there's a low power station here.
There are at least 3 or 4 low power stations in Washington DC. IIRC, there are several more that have filed for licenses to go on the air digitally when they re-open the application process for new stations. It has been mostly closed down during the analog-digital transition process.

As for when the low power (LP) and translator stations have to go digital, that is still being worked out by the FCC. Congress only required the full power stations to go digital and for UHF 52 to 69 to be cleared; they did not state what to do for the LP and translators. Check the Official Upcoming final DTV transition sticky thread in the Local Reception forum for discussion of the whole conversion process. However, it is likely that the FCC will push the Class A and as many LP stations as possible to do a digital flash cut conversion in February, 2009. LPs and translators in UHF 52 to 69 may have to vacate and move to a new digital channel by Feb. 17, 2009 whether they are ready or not.

In Utah, we have lots of small cities and areas (most of the state) that are hundreds of miles from the big city television stations. To get coverage, low power tv transmitters (ie. translator stations) are used to broadcast or relay the network affiliates from mountaintops to a very limited area around a small city. When I say small, we are talking cities with 2000-5000 people. Of course, Dish and DirecTV are wasting bandwidth trying to get everyone a local feed everywhere, making their dish signals pixelated crap because their signals are bitrate starved from trying to broadcast too much with limited bandwidth. And even then, you need a dish to pick up the local feeds that they broadcast and you have to pay a monthly fee for them. With a regular antenna, the relays stations are picked up by perhaps a 400-500 thousand people that live in rural areas in this state. Even with the analog shutoff, the translators may still have to be used until digital translators are installed. We are talking perhaps 30-60 translator stations on the tops of mountains that are hard to get to, that also need to be converted to HDTV/digital around the state. One of our forum members, kenglish, works for local NBC affiliate KSL in engineering and could give you more accurate information on this. All I know is that our cabin 115 miles away in the middle of the state picks up a translator signal via a rooftop antenna with several 12,000 foot mountains between the cabin and Salt Lake City.

Your situation in Utah is an "interesting" problem, to be sure. Ken and and his fellow TV engineers would also like answers on that ASAP.

The Utah situation is being handled. It has the first digital translator network in the country. They have been working on that for several years now.

Nice to be corrected in a positive light !

This situation has the LP and translator folks in the difficult position of asking that the NTIA set-top boxes all pass analog signals through to the connected sets (not all approved boxes do!). After February 2009, most set top boxes would only pass analog outputs of the digital full power stations....

There are at least 3 or 4 low power stations in Washington DC. IIRC, there are several more that have filed for licenses to go on the air digitally when they re-open the application process for new stations. It has been mostly closed down during the analog-digital transition process.

As for when the low power (LP) and translator stations have to go digital, that is still being worked out by the FCC. Congress only required the full power stations to go digital and for UHF 52 to 69 to be cleared; they did not state what to do for the LP and translators.... it is likely that the FCC will push the Class A and as many LP stations as possible to do a digital flash cut conversion in February, 2009...

I think the owners of Washington, DC LP channels like 47 and 49 are going to get rich quick. With a powerful digital channel 48 between them, they are presently visually unbearable to watch, but they will be capable of delivering perfect, multicast infomercials to perhaps a million viewers when they are digital, as digital channels can withstand that adjacent channel signal differential levels. Channel 49 has recently switched to a spooky, New Age/ sci-fi format. Last week, they broadcast some 40-something year old episodes of "One Step Beyond".

This situation has the LP and translator folks in the difficult position of asking that the NTIA set-top boxes all pass analog signals through to the connected sets (not all approved boxes do!). After February 2009, most set top boxes would only pass analog outputs of the digital full power stations....

This is a red herring. They are acting like when these converter boxes are connected people will lose the ability to watch analog. JUST DON'T TURN THE DAMN BOX ON AND USE THE NTSC TUNER IN THE TV! How hard is that?

Their real concern is people will get used to watching digital and will not want to come to their analog stations anymore. Truth is, most people are probably not watching them to start with unless they are a network affiliate or compelling programming which in that case people will come back. I look at this as an incentive for them to get their digital stations up on the air and not wait on the FCC. There is a digital day of reckoning coming for them as well.

The Utah situation is being handled. It has the first digital translator network in the country. They have been working on that for several years now.

Moving the translators to digital has other problems that no-one has really thought through. The ones that have gone digital are transmitting the same "virtual" station ID as the master station, but from a different real frequency. So if you happen to be in range of one of the translator stations as well as the master station, you see two channels with the same virtual channel number but on different frequencies. This is extremely difficult for the guide data producers, and therefore a nightmare for DVRs.

Moving the translators to digital has other problems that no-one has really thought through.

Yes they have and have been addressed.

The ones that have gone digital are transmitting the same "virtual" station ID as the master station, but from a different real frequency.

That is not allowed by the rules. Each transmitter must, by law, provide their own PSIP data for that transmitter, no matter what class of station it is, Full Power, Low Power, Class A, Translator, not the relayed signal. They also must pass the EPG data from the main station. That is the rules.

This is a red herring. They are acting like when these converter boxes are connected people will lose the ability to watch analog. JUST DON'T TURN THE DAMN BOX ON AND USE THE NTSC TUNER IN THE TV! How hard is that?



Pretty difficult if the RF input does not have the bypass relay in place to kick in when the power is off! Or maybe you prefer to change the RF cable to your set each time you want to watch a translator or LP station.

It's a red herring - period. I believe it is part of the specs that the coupon boxes pass it through like a VCR

Pretty difficult if the RF input does not have the bypass relay in place to kick in when the power is off! Or maybe you prefer to change the RF cable to your set each time you want to watch a translator or LP station.
I would expect most people will use the composite or S-video input on the TV when hooking up the converter boxes. But if the RF output of the converter is used, it has to be be set to a unused broadcast channel, presumably 2 or 3. The lack of stations on low VHF may come in useful here because then they could use a splitter to combine the line coming from the converter box and a line from the antenna (itself run through a splitter to the converter box). Leave the TV set to channel 2 for the digital stations. Grab the TV remote and tune the TV to the local translator station that is still in analog in mid-2009. I don't see why this couldn't work.

However, many people don't not understand how broadcast TV works in the first place. You don't need to know the Maxwell equations, studied antenna design or have an engineering degree, but a lot of people don't understand even the basic concepts of how it works and the different cable connection types. These people will be confused by the conversion process and how to best connect the converter box or discover that they are not getting all the stations anymore because the old antenna is poor for UHF.

The analog shutdown is going to be a bumpy ride. Fasten the seat belts.

Pretty difficult if the RF input does not have the bypass relay in place to kick in when the power is off! Or maybe you prefer to change the RF cable to your set each time you want to watch a translator or LP station.

The RF does loop through when off. It is part of the spec.

No, according to http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_technical.htm that functionality is permitted, but not required. The Community Broadcasters say that as of their filing, only Samsung and Echostar's receivers do the loop through.

This is a red herring. They are acting like when these converter boxes are connected people will lose the ability to watch analog. JUST DON'T TURN THE DAMN BOX ON AND USE THE NTSC TUNER IN THE TV! How hard is that?

There's more than one reason that it's a red herring.

LPTV stations also had the ability to apply for a digital channel. If they failed to do so, or applied but didn't build it, the lack of LPTV in digital is their own damn fault.

Just because the FCC allowed LPTV stations to stay analog doesn't mean that the LPTV licensee has any inalienable rights because they failed to go digital.

In order to avoid the problem, any LPTV station below channel 51 can flash cut to digital on their current channel on February 17, 2009.

We have a low power station here in Phoenix, KAZT, who's doing the conversion early. Their analog signal went off the air a couple of days ago and the digital signal is supposed to be up in a few days.

I have a feeling that there'll be a lot of stations that go dark for a couple of days in Feb 09.

Just because the FCC allowed LPTV stations to stay analog doesn't mean that the LPTV licensee has any inalienable rights because they failed to go digital.



Wow. Only 40% of the Federally licensed stations are required to change on that date. If we had approached the UHF spectrum in the 60's with your enthusiasm, we'd still only have VHF tuners in our sets.