I have read several annoucements and articles regarding Tru2Way tech., the new moniker for OpenCable. The info. so far has been ambiguous and conflicting on how it will be implemented.

Panasonic and Comcast's joint annoucement is ambiguous. However, on Comcast's CES site, they say customers will be able to buy a TV, plug it in, and immediately have access to all Digital Cable Services; this implies DCA.

Some tech site says Tru2way will be 2-way CC, another says the first TVs will be Tru2way and 2-way CC compliant, but it isn't clear if those will be two standards or just one standard with 2-way CC as the vehicle for Tru2Way.

Does anyone have a definitive source whether Tru2Way uses DCA or 2-way CC?

I am interested in getting this for my next secondary TV. Interesting, also, that while Panasonic says it will be in plasmas this year, this spec. is not mentioned for Panasonic's new '08 plasma line. My guess is it probably won't make in to the April plasmas, rather the larger Sept. plasmas.

Tru2Way itself is not related to CableCARDs:
tru2way is a new cable standard that will allow 3rd party (like the one that Panasonic announced) to operate with a cable system and get all interactive services.
CableCARDs is a security device that is used with a 3rd party (now also used in cable supplied equipment as well) to descramble the signal. It is not well known, but CableCARDs really have always been capable of supporting 2-way cable. The actual circuitry for 2 way is in the device, not the CableCARD itself.
But actually implementing tru2way requires work on both ends: The cable systems need to implement it as do the 3rd party consumer devices. There has been lots of development going on, with lots of "failures" too. If you REALLY want a plasma without a cable box, then you will need to wait - and even when you get the set, cable may not be ready where you are, or the combination might not work well.

Does anyone have a definitive source whether Tru2Way uses DCA or 2-way CC?


I don't have a definitive source but always understood that OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP) was Downloadable Conditional Access. Tru2Way just seems to be another name for OCAP and there won't be many compliant devices until at least the beginning of next year.

I don't have a definitive source but always understood that OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP) was Downloadable Conditional Access.

That is what I thought, as well, but now I am not so sure.

Tru2Way just seems to be another name for OCAP

I gathered that from the articles.

and there won't be many compliant devices until at least the beginning of next year.

Of course, but Panasonic will have at least one plasma later this year. I would imagine their April '09 Plasmas and LCDs will all, or almost all, have Tru2Way; that is a ways off, but I am holding off giving my secondary TV to a relative until I can get a Tru2Way TV.

I just wonder if it will require a CC install or not. If it does, maybe by then they will allow customer installs everywhere. I read of a few areas will mail the CCs or Boxes.

DCA would be the best solution. It is amazing that the info. in the annoucements isn't clear as to the tech. being used.

Tru2Way itself is not related to CableCARDs:
tru2way is a new cable standard that will allow 3rd party (like the one that Panasonic announced) to operate with a cable system and get all interactive services.
CableCARDs is a security device that is used with a 3rd party (now also used in cable supplied equipment as well) to descramble the signal. It is not well known, but CableCARDs really have always been capable of supporting 2-way cable. The actual circuitry for 2 way is in the device, not the CableCARD itself.
But actually implementing tru2way requires work on both ends: The cable systems need to implement it as do the 3rd party consumer devices. There has been lots of development going on, with lots of "failures" too. If you REALLY want a plasma without a cable box, then you will need to wait - and even when you get the set, cable may not be ready where you are, or the combination might not work well.
I am aware of all of this, but good informative post for others, nonetheless.

I am in Comcast's home territory of S.E. PA.; we know Comcast is supporting Tru2Way, so, we will most probably be one of the first area's to get this tech.

I always knew OCAP/Tru2Way tech. and 2-way CC tech. weren't the same. By saying they aren't related, do you mean that CC won't be the vehicle used to implement Tru2Way, rather it will be DCA?

By saying they aren't related, do you mean that CC won't be the vehicle used to implement Tru2Way, rather it will be DCA?What I meant was that CableCARDs ONLY function is to provide the security decode function. In Tru2Way, this initially will be done with CableCARDs, but ultimately the security function will be handled by downloaded security software (DCAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_Conditional_Access_System))
(BTW: is that what you meant by "DCA"?). CableCARDs existed before and without Tru2Way, and using DCAS for the security function, Tru2Way can exist without CableCARDs.

Because cable views Tru2Way as tomorrows platform, they are only implementing DCAS in Tru2Way.

Here is an article from CISCO on the subject. (http://blogs.cisco.com/sp/2007/09/dmystifying_dcas_downloadable.html) The beginning isn't too bad, but it gets somewhat technical after the first few paragraphs.

])
(BTW: is that what you meant by "DCA"?).

The term DCA may have the following meanings:

DanChurchAid, a Danish NGO.
Dartington College of Arts
Delta Connection Academy, a flight school at Orlando Sanford International Airport.
Deoxycholic acid, a bile acid.
Department for Constitutional Affairs, a former United Kingdom government department.
Detrended Correspondence Analysis, one means of multivariate ordination.
Dichloroacetic acid/dichloroacetate, an organic compound with a claimed potential as a cancer treatment.
Direct Chip Attach
Direct Connect Architecture, the I/O architecture of the Athlon64 and Opteron microprocessors from AMD.
Disney's California Adventure, a theme park in the Disneyland Resort.
Distributed Computing Architecture, a method of computer processing.
District Court of Appeal, an intermediary court between the Supreme Court and lower courts in some states of the USA.
Document Content Architecture, an IBM document formating code system.
Dollar cost averaging, an investment strategy.
Drum Corps Associates, the governing body for all-ages drum corps in North America.
Dundee Contemporary Arts, an arts complex in Dundee Scotland.
Dynamic Channel Allocation or Dynamic Channel Assignment, in wireless networks.
Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (IATA: DCA, ICAO: KDCA)
Deaf Children Australia, a Melbourne based national charity for young deaf people.
WDCA, the MyNetworkTV station in Washington, D.C..

Hope this helps.

The term DCA may have the following meanings:
-
-
-
Hope this helps.No it's not helpful at all. I asked the poster (QZ1) what HE meant. (I suspect that he meant DCAS, but wanted confirmation)

What I meant was that CableCARDs ONLY function is to provide the security decode function. In Tru2Way, this initially will be done with CableCARDs, but ultimately the security function will be handled by downloaded security software (DCAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_Conditional_Access_System))
(BTW: is that what you meant by "DCA"?). CableCARDs existed before and without Tru2Way, and using DCAS for the security function, Tru2Way can exist without CableCARDs.

Because cable views Tru2Way as tomorrows platform, they are only implementing DCAS in Tru2Way.

Here is an article from CISCO on the subject. (http://blogs.cisco.com/sp/2007/09/dmystifying_dcas_downloadable.html) The beginning isn't too bad, but it gets somewhat technical after the first few paragraphs.
Yes, I meant DCAS.

From the article:

"With downloadable security, sometime in mid-to late 2008, consumers could buy a digital-cable-ready TV, plug the cable connection to the back of the set and then call their cable operator, who could then send a software download to the TV to activate two-way digital video service."

Then anytime one would unplug the coaxial, one would have to call the cable co.; I think it will actually be automagic.

Do you believe that timeframe?

Comcast's CES site implies DCAS, since it describes essentially, 'plug & play' tech. But you are saying tru2way will be through CC first; I tend to think you are right. Do you have any source to support it, though?

Yes, I meant DCAS.

From the article:

"With downloadable security, sometime in mid-to late 2008, consumers could buy a digital-cable-ready TV, plug the cable connection to the back of the set and then call their cable operator, who could then send a software download to the TV to activate two-way digital video service."

Then anytime one would unplug the coaxial, one would have to call the cable co.; I think it will actually be automagic.

Do you believe that timeframe? No more than I believe anything else that Comcast says (see below).

Comcast's CES site implies DCAS, since it describes essentially, 'plug & play' tech. But you are saying tru2way will be through CC first; I tend to think you are right. Do you have any source to support it, though?Comcast makes lots of outrageous & misleading claims (like a 1000 HD "choices") - so I do't believe much of what they say. I don't know what the "Comcast CES site" says (could you provide a link?). My source is actually lots of industry newsletters. There has not been much on DCAS lately - no product announcements, which would imply that it is not ready. Besides, first things first, they really need to get Tru2Way up and running first. (Incidentally, many have considered CableCARDs to be "plug n play").

I don't know what the "Comcast CES site" says (could you provide a link?). My source is actually lots of industry newsletters. There has not been much on DCAS lately - no product announcements, which would imply that it is not ready. Besides, first things first, they really need to get Tru2Way up and running first. (Incidentally, many have considered CableCARDs to be "plug n play").
http://www.comcast.com/ces/

Specifically, the 'Tru2way Technology' section.

"Consumers simply bring the set home from the store and plug it in to begin receiving all available interactive cable services – no set-top box is needed because it’s built into the TV."

CableCards in theory should be 'plug & play', but in practice sometimes they aren't. But, my point was they claim that the TVs will be 'plug & play'. Therefore, no need to contact the cableco., and either drive there, wait for appt., or wait for a delivery of CCs.

Even if it uses CC at first, that is fine with me, since it will be a full Digital Cable solution. I was going to buy a discontinued CC TV in Dec. '06, but decided against it, mainly because of SDV; so I saved some money buying another TV that at has just QAM, better than nothing.

http://www.comcast.com/ces/

Specifically, the 'Tru2way Technology' section.

"Consumers simply bring the set home from the store and plug it in to begin receiving all available interactive cable services – no set-top box is needed because it’s built into the TV."

CableCards in theory should be 'plug & play', but in practice sometimes they aren't. But, my point was they claim that the TVs will be 'plug & play'. Therefore, no need to contact the cableco., and either drive there, wait for appt., or wait for a delivery of CCs.

Even if it uses CC at first, that is fine with me, since it will be a full Digital Cable solution. I was going to buy a discontinued CC TV in Dec. '06, but decided against it, mainly because of SDV; so I saved some money buying another TV that at has just QAM, better than nothing.I just came across this article. (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143004&site=cdn). I think that it answers the question about the Panasonic product:
A new breed of tru2way TVs equipped with CableCARD slots, such as those demonstrated here by Panasonic and LG Electronics Inc. (London: LGLD - message board; Korea: 6657.KS) , will allow consumers to use the cable operator's interactive guide and two-way services such as video-on-demand (VOD) without a separate set-top box.

I just came across this article. (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143004&site=cdn). I think that it answers the question about the Panasonic product:
I will read that. After posting yesterday, I also found an article from the same site posted a few days earlier; I was planning to post the link today, as it answers my question, as well.

http://www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid=419&doc_id=142446&site=cdn

"While tru2way requires plenty of new gear in the headend, in the home it's partly enabled with specified middleware and the removable CableCARD security element."

Also, here is an article on the progress of DCAS.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=142992&site=cdn

I came across this link today. I leads to information as of 9/08 about the Tru2way system. http://www.ctam.com/tru2way/index.htm

Not much new there. Bottom line is that devices (TVs) with the hardware built in are due by the end of the year but who knows when cable cos will make it happen.

Not much new there. Bottom line is that devices (TVs) with the hardware built in are due by the end of the year but who knows when cable cos will make it happen.
I recall reading recently that the six (?) major MSOs have a self-imposed deadline to support tru2way by 1 July 2009. At least one (TW?) is supporting it already. I bet they will all step-up as soon as the TVs start appearing; or at least appearing in some appreciable quantity.

I'm not sure the cable cos will rush to support this - it means a loss of revenue from the STB rents. And as with CC, there'll be lots of growing pains. I can see it already - "no it's the cable cos fault, no it's the TV makers fault". :rolleyes:

I don't see much changing as long as Cablecards are used, because Comcast, TWC, etc. have shown over and over with Tivo installs that they are clueless about setting up the cards correctly. I've had multiple techs say that they don't like dealing with them, and many times corporate escalation is required to get them to provide working cards.

This might change as they are forced to use the newer DVR's that use CC's, but I doubt it because I think they're setup at the warehouse before the tech gets it.

I don't see much changing as long as Cablecards are used, because Comcast, TWC, etc. have shown over and over with Tivo installs that they are clueless about setting up the cards correctly. I've had multiple techs say that they don't like dealing with them, and many times corporate escalation is required to get them to provide working cards.

Well, this'll be *slightly* different, since the two-way nature of it will help to automate more of the setup - but of course, it's different from the standard MSO-provided box, and different is clearly bad. :rolleyes: The annoying thing with CableCARD to date is not that they can't make it work, but that so many just won't put forth a little effort to make it work.

This might change as they are forced to use the newer DVR's that use CC's, but I doubt it because I think they're setup at the warehouse before the tech gets it.

Yeah, the CableCARD-based Moto and Cisco/SA boxes have the cards preinstalled at the factory, and usually locked behind a screw-in plate, avoiding any need to actually deal with the cards directly. It's evened the playing field a little, of course - in the respect that now they have no excuse for not deploying CableCARD-ready infrastructure - but the techs that go out to you don't get forced to deal with them in the same way as with, say, an HD TiVo. And oh god, do they bitch about it. You'd think someone just knifed the baby...

When I had a cable card installed a couple of years ago the tech was not happy. After specifically telling the service rep that I made the appointment with that I wanted a cable card and to be sure they had one for me, the tech had no card. Didn't want to get one. On the next visit he brought a card and made it work.

During the process I learned that lots of these guys are contract workers. They are paid on piece work. The pay for a cable card install is less than for a box install. They also have to pay back the company for any lost cards. I guess it is harder to lose a box than a card.

Anyway- he couldn't make as much money on a card as a box so his strategy seemed to be to not bring a card and talk the usually naive customer into a box.

On another thought - while the cable companies lose the revenue when they don't provide a box, HD DVR's are not cheap. When the customer buys it and pays fees on the card I would think they could get an ROI quicker and save some capitol.

Panasonic Takes Tru2way HDTVs To Retail

Comcast to Switch on tru2way Support in Chicago and Denver

By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 10/15/2008 4:20:00 PM

Panasonic said it has shipped the first tru2way-based HDTVs to a retailer in suburban Chicago, while Comcast's Chicago and Denver systems have gone live with tru2way.

The developments mark a key go-to-market milestone for the cable industry's interactive services standard for consumer electronics devices that has been more than a decade in development.

Panasonic's first tru2way-enabled Viera plasma HDTVs will be offered in 42- and 50-inch sizes. The sets include a tru2way cable receiver -- eliminating the need for a separate set-top box -- that should theoretically work in any cable system that supports the technology.

Panasonic said its tru2way-certified Viera HDTVs are now available at Abt Electronics in Glenview, Ill., and will be available in the Chicago area at Circuit City locations. In Denver, the sets will be available at Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City stores.

“We see tru2way technology as the gateway for our customers to experience the next generation of interactive television, and our work with Panasonic to develop and support the first fully digital-cable-ready HDTVs is an important first step in making that happen,” said Mark Hess, Comcast's senior vice president of video product development, in a statement.

tru2way also represents the cable industry's desire to provide its own technology for consumer electronics makers—including Panasonic, Sony and Samsung Electronics—to access two-way cable services, instead of the Federal Communications Commission imposing an alternate standard.

Earlier this summer, Panasonic's tru2way HDTVs reportedly failed CableLabs certification testing for the spec, leading to speculation that the products would not meet the target of shipping for the 2008 holiday season.

Getting the tru2way products into the retail channel has been a priority for Comcast and Panasonic. The two companies have heavily promoted their collaboration on tru2way technology, touting their plans at the Consumer Electronics Show in January and at the NCTA's Cable Show '08 in May.

The TH-42PZ80Q 42-inch model will have a suggested retail price of $1,599.95, and the TH-50PZ80Q 50-inch unit will list at $2,299.95.

Both TVs feature 480-Hz sub-field drive for sharp motion image focus, 1,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio and a built-in SD memory card reader for playing back digital photos.

Won't Tru2Way have to use CC because of failure that is the intergration ban? Seeing as Tru2Way accomplishes what that intended to do (being able to buy a box) without CC I hope not.

Won't Tru2Way have to use CC because of failure that is the intergration ban?

It does use CC, the reason, IIRC, is not due to the integration ban (7/07), the purpose of which, was to level the playing field with third-party TV and boxes (allowed since 7/04). Rather, IIRC, it uses CC, because OCAP through DCAS has not been finalized yet.

Seeing as Tru2Way accomplishes what that intended to do (being able to buy a box) without CC I hope not.

This is not fully clear, please rephrase.

Rather, IIRC, it uses CC, because OCAP through DCAS has not been finalized yet.

Far as I know, DCAS itself hasn't been finalized - they still don't have any production-ready silicon designs for it, so it'd be pretty hard to use it in OCAP/tru2way gear yet. The door is open, and if the vendors can supply it, I'm sure that it'll be preferred over CableCARD. (Of course, that only matters if tru2way makes a notable dent, which I'm still not convinced it will.)

This is not fully clear, please rephrase.

I think that was him asking based on the (incorrect) understanding that OCAP/tru2way necessarily includes DCAS, which (as you mentioned) is most assuredly not the case.

Far as I know, DCAS itself hasn't been finalized - they still don't have any production-ready silicon designs for it, so it'd be pretty hard to use it in OCAP/tru2way gear yet. The door is open, and if the vendors can supply it, I'm sure that it'll be preferred over CableCARD. (Of course, that only matters if tru2way makes a notable dent, which I'm still not convinced it will.)
Yes, I know DCAS isn't ready, I just wasn't sure if that was only reason why CC is being used for tru2way. IOW, they could have decided to wait on DCAS before launching tru2way. I think the reason they launched it with CC, was because they wanted to pre-empt DCR+. I am sure after OCAP/DCAS is launched, OCAP/CC (tru2way) will be mandated to be supported for many years; this is, of course, assuming tru2way becomes the standard.

So when DCAS does become available the ban won't stop it then. Cableco's might put up a fight since its easier to charge a (bigger) rental fee on a physical object.

So when DCAS does become available the ban won't stop it then. Cableco's might put up a fight since its easier to charge a (bigger) rental fee on a physical object.

Probably not, actually - with all the clear hate they have for CableCARD, I think they'll be only too happy to switch to DCAS.

Probably not, actually - with all the clear hate they have for CableCARD, I think they'll be only too happy to switch to DCAS.

...and still charge for it.:rolleyes:

...and still charge for it.:rolleyes:

Well, come on now, it's what they do... :)

Actually, many years ago, the FCC mandated that MSOs could no longer charge for Addtl. Outlets for Analog cable w/o a box, so I would imagine the same rule would apply to DCAS for Digital Cable.

Is there anyone out there in one of the test markets with a real TV on a real cable system? I can't wait to hear how it all works.

Actually, many years ago, the FCC mandated that MSOs could no longer charge for Addtl. Outlets for Analog cable w/o a box, so I would imagine the same rule would apply to DCAS for Digital Cable.

Well, they didn't have a way to track/authorize a Cable-ready analog set. With DCAS, they surely will, and I'm sure they'll be only too glad to jack you for more money.

Yes, do a search and it will turn up. There's a guy in IL with one that sounds like is working fine on comcast.

Thanks for the search tip. I found it.

Well, they didn't have a way to track/authorize a Cable-ready analog set. With DCAS, they surely will, and I'm sure they'll be only too glad to jack you for more money.
Sure, but it gets complicated, in that one doesn't have to pay to mirror all of one's cable services on each addtl. TV. So, the TV's interface would have to have a menu of services/prices, from which one would choose and authorize for each TV. Alternately, one would have to call the cableco. first to authorize the services. AFAIK, neither of these scenarios have been presented to be a part of tru2way interface and procedure. More likely, IMHO, they will simply let people mirror all of one's services for no fee.

Right, now they indeed get some extra $ money on A/Os above the cost of the included box. Effectively, in Digital Starter they get $1.25 for mirroring, or for Digital Classic $5.20. However, if one gets a second DVR with Digital Classic, the fee is only $1.25 (not $5.20) more than the effective cost of the first DVR. Also, they used to charge $5 for Whole House Premium Access, and it was discontinued. So, we just will have to see what happens.