The 2008 NFL Playoffs
AFC Divisional Round in HDTV on CBS
Jacksonville Jaguars @ New England Patriots
Live from Gillette Stadium Foxborough, MA
January 12, 2008
8pm ET
1080i & DD5.1

Announcers:
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

Weather Forecast: (weather.com)
Partly Cloudy, 38F, Winds less then 5MPH

Please include your source (OTA, Cable, Satellite) and your location (City & Station) with your posts.

Please see this thread for the NFC game earlier today. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12790033)

As a Pats fan I'm really nervous about this game. Football is mental as much as it is physical and without the Pats losing this year and being big favorites in this game I hope they are not looking past this to the Colts next week cause it would be very easy to. I had almost wish that they lost that Giants game to know they can be beat if they don't play their best and I believe they would be more focused for this game if they did. I know that they are saying all the right things and how coach BB would never let his team think that way but sometimes you never know how they really feel. And the Jags have nothing to lose knowing no one expects them to win this game which alone can make them very dangerous because they also are a very good team to begin with and when overlooked such as they are could bring out the best in them just like it did to alot of the Pats opponents during the last month of the regular season. I guess we'll find out tonight! Anyway GO PATS!

Just switched over to CBS (KBAK Bakersfield, OTA) from Fox, and already the studio and audio looks and sounds much better, comparatively. Hopefully we're in for a fantastic game!

Switched from FOX as well but CBS here is only DD2.0 :(

WKRC-DT Cincinnati via TWC

QAM receiver

WCBS-DT NYC FIOS TV

HD highlights from SEA @ GB. Live interviews from GB in SD 16:9.

Wow, great video quality. Perhaps as good or better than any NFL game to date.

PQ looks amazing via OTA (WFOR).

the main game cam seems 'blurry' over here in Lexington, SC. OTA on WLTX19.

But, WLTX has had some MAJOR problems the past few weeks.

Color looks great and more 'rich' and 'vibrant' than the WACH57 game early in the day.

Sound is only stereo though :(

AND GO JAGS!!!! Nice play action fake on 4th down :)

Wow, gutsy pass by Garrard on 4th and 1. Setting the tempo for the drive right there.

Watching on KFMB/CBS in San Diego via TWC (SA8300HDC via HDMI 1080i).

Typical CBS=Crappy Blocky Sucky PQ.

Great PQ if it's a still close up. Lots of macroblocking if there is any motion - check out the infield red border - any time the camera moves I can see massive macroblocking. Logos typical...macroblocking on flash ins.

Movement/tracking of cameras - macroblocking.

Commercial? Gorgeous.

Blech - I hate CBS/TWC games.

Great picture via TWC in Wilmington, NC. No CBS Dolby 5.1 here. :( But the PLII fold down on this game sounds better than the true 5.1 I heard on Fox earlier. Could be our Fox affiliate.

Good to be enjoying a game on the couch.

Touchdown Jags.

WS

Garrard's TD pass eerily similar to the pass Brett Favre made earlier today in the GB/SEA game, as he's being tacked. At least Garrard's was an overhand throw, so not nearly as impressive as Brett's.

Very good opening drive by the Jags.

I'm picking the Jags to pull the upset win tonight.

Wow, gutsy pass by Garrard on 4th and 1. Setting the tempo for the drive right there.


I agree. Great call. Wonder why Bilicheck did not challenge? And how late can you challenge? Right up to the point of the snap?

pq solid (other than one massive breakup). sharp. good color. good turf (dirt?). no pixelation on main cams. no pixelation on close ups.
edit: pixelation in background from end zone cams. another edit: starting to get some occasional picture breakup and loss of focus.

aq ok. not great, not bad.

comcast south jersey.

i am VERY nervous about this game, and not because i'm worried about the state of the patriots focus... they'll be focussed... but because j'ville could really be THAT good...

I agree. Great call. Wonder why Bilicheck did not challenge? And how late can you challenge? Right up to the point of the snap?

anytime before the snap I believe...

And, I'd imagine the arrogance of Bill Belicheck played a part into it. Or at least I want it to play a part :).

Jags are looking good right now..., but as everyone learned during the earlier game... that's why they play for 60 minutes, and not 8ish... :)

I'm getting weird freezes... it's almost like a stuttering. It's something that is almost unnoticeable... until you notice it, then it bugs the hell out of you.

WCBS-DT, Comcast of Union, NJ, Moto DCT3416.

Great picture via TWC in Wilmington, NC. No CBS Dolby 5.1 here. :( But the PLII fold down on this game sounds better than the true 5.1 I heard on Fox earlier. Could be our Fox affiliate.

Good to be enjoying a game on the couch.

Touchdown Jags.

WS

Nice to be home...eh Wendel? ;)

Personally I like stereo over PLII for sports but prefer your mixing of DD5.1...

looks great on kcci via mediacom here in central iowa

Nice to be home...eh Wendel? ;)

Personally I like stereo over PLII for sports but prefer your mixing of DD5.1...

Usually I agree. Gave this one a shot in PLII. Fills the room nicely. Lotsa loud folks over watching.

Tied up.

WS

If Jax continues to give Brady this much time, not only is this game for all practical purposes a forgone conclusion, but NE easily bids the spread and puts this game OVER just by itself.

awesome PQ here

WCBS via comcast QAM

awesome PQ here

WCBS via comcast QAM

I'm jealous.

The macroblocking on motion is HORRIBLE. Not just tonight but ANY CBS broadcast...must be the distribution or feed thru TWC.

Sigh....:(

Erik

Great quality in Chapel Hill. Unlike the crapfest that is FOX's broadcasts.

Nice answer drive just when it look like the Pats had the big mo

Great drive by the Jags. Jags have some running backs.

All tied up at 14.

Nice drive by Jax. 14-14.

I think if Jacksonville gets the opportunity to go up over the Patriots here tonight, the next time they get the football they'll just run the clock down to zero. Here's hoping... Even though I want to see my Colts in a rematch with the Pats next week.

The usual CBS pristine quality. WJZ Baltimore. OTA and on Comcast.

Great quality in Chapel Hill. Unlike the crapfest that is FOX's broadcasts.

Question for ya - so - you see NO macroblocking when the CBS logo flashes in?

Just trying to figure out why CBS sucks so bad for San Diego TWC....cuz...the commericals look good...no macroblocking on motion or logos.

Erik

I'm jealous.

The macroblocking on motion is HORRIBLE. Not just tonight but ANY CBS broadcast...must be the distribution or feed thru TWC.

Sigh....:(

Erik

i think TWC does rate-shape :(, i'm getting the whole 18+mbit on comcast

Great PQ on CBS-HD NY via Brookhaven Cablevision.


Wow... the ref's screwed up- they didn't call a penalty when the Pats missed a field goal that would have given them the lead going in at the half!

Pats get the ball first in the second half, if they score I think They will win, if not it will come down to the wire. The pats didn't look happy going into the locker room, as a Pats fan I take that as a good sign.

Looks great here on WWJ via Comcast in Detroit. Usual great CBS quality.

Great PQ\AQ here also. Very Crisp and no breakup. OTA KIRO Seattle.
As said earlier, FOX is so bad, especially when you see something very good like this.
Very even game so far. The defenses on both sides need to step it up.
Second half is a new game.
The Patriots aren't happy while the Jaguars are.
You have to like both teams. Well coached, very few mistakes.
They just play the game.

Noticed that CBS is using Skycam instead of CableCam as they usually do. I wonder what the reason is? They did the same thing for the Pats/Colts game earlier in the year at the RCA Dome.

Great SuperVision replay of that catch by Faulk.

Question for ya - so - you see NO macroblocking when the CBS logo flashes in?

Just trying to figure out why CBS sucks so bad for San Diego TWC....cuz...the commericals look good...no macroblocking on motion or logos.

Erik

I switched from TWC to Directv this year. What you describe is what I saw a lot of with TWC. CBS is by no means perfect, and I do see some macroblocking from time to time, but its nothing at all like when I was with TWC. But both are better than the blurred out mess that is Fox.

The dreaded "Team of Dentiny" label. Now I know the Jax are going to lose. I recall when Charles Barkley thought the Suns were the team of destiny. Almost all teams that are labled "teams of destiny" lose.

I hate to say it, but that FG might have just sealed Jax's fate. If Pats score on the next drive, its over.

Good PQ here from KPHO-DT Phoenix via Cox cable, 1 SD sub, HD running at 15.25Mbit/s. There is still some blocking on motion, but not nearly as bad as NBC. Occasional dancing grass and mosquito noise around the lines on the field, but not nearly as bad as Fox. KPHO's audio encoder isn't switching to 2.0 audio when they go back to the studio and isn't upmixing to 5.1, so there's no audio in the center channel during these times. Guess I'll be emailing engineering since they had working audio switching at one point.

I hate to say it, but that FG might have just sealed Jax's fate. If Pats score on the next drive, its over.

The announcer wonders whether the Jax can stay patient on defense. If they stay patient any more than this game is over.

Just had two short audio dropouts on WWJ via Comcast in Detroit.

i think TWC does rate-shape :(, i'm getting the whole 18+mbit on comcast

I've sent an email to San Diego TWC to put them on the spot about rate shaping.

I'm sick of the crappy macroblocking during games. Close ups or any shot with slow/gradual motion look really good. But motion or logo flash ins - big ugly square blocks of pixles.

I don't see this on Discovery HD, and even FOX HD is better (except the LSU/Ohio game - that SUCKED on TWC) - nor SD DVDs.

HD is not HD all the time...obviously.

Erik

Noticed that CBS is using Skycam instead of CableCam as they usually do. I wonder what the reason is? They did the same thing for the Pats/Colts game earlier in the year at the RCA Dome.

What exactly is the difference, and how can you tell? Thanks!

And that's the game. I'm a Pats fan, but I've also become a Garrard fan. Good man. Good player.

Time to switch channels...move along move along...

All things Boston and New England continue, even though the Celts lost to the Wizards tonight.

what I think these last few games have proved is that New England is NOT invincible...they are hard, extremely hard to beat...but not invincible...

Great PQ OTA. Patriots win; wow, what a story.

what I think these last few games have proved is that New England is NOT invincible...they are hard, extremely hard to beat...but not invincible...

Agreed. Like I said, somewhere in the past month, I'd take the 78 Steelers, the 84, 89 and 94 49ers and the 85 Bears over this Patriots team.

I would probably even take the 93 Cowboys, though it hurts me to say so. :D

And that's the game. I'm a Pats fan, but I've also become a Garrard fan. Good man. Good player.No doubt. Jacksonville is the sleeper team in the NFL. Very similiar offensively to NE. Their only problem is that they had to play NE instead of Indianapolis.

what I think these last few games have proved is that New England is NOT invincible...they are hard, extremely hard to beat...but not invincible... So what's not "invincible" about New England? Extremely hard to beat you say? I guess you could say that since they haven't lost a game this season.
My only disappointment is I didn't get to see them disassemble Pittsburgh but Jacksonville did a good enough job of that.
Trying to pick out a weakness or deficiency in the New England Patriots is wishful thinking.

Agreed. Like I said, somewhere in the past month, I'd take the 78 Steelers, the 84, 89 and 94 49ers and the 85 Bears over this Patriots team.

I would probably even take the 93 Cowboys, though it hurts me to say so. :D

And the Pats would gameplan them all and most likely beat them all.

Great game tonight. The Jags played hard but came up a little short tonight.

Well, now the Colts know they need to show up large and in charge tomorrow night for their final game ever in the RCA dome. Had the Jags won (and Colts), the AFC Championship would have been held there, but now the AFC Championship is guaranteed to be in Foxboro.

And the Pats would gameplan them all and most likely beat them all.

I would bet on a Bill Walsh "gameplan" over a Bill Belichick game plan any day of the week.

People have such short memories. :)

People have such short memories. :)

Not really. The Patriots are redefining greatness. 17-0. Do you understand how amazing this is? Brady is clearly the only man who can be spoken in the same breath as Montana. Bill B will go down as the greatest coach in history.

19-0 is gonna happen. Then there will be NO debate.

Unbelievable...

I don't see this on Discovery HD, and even FOX HD is better (except the LSU/Ohio game - that SUCKED on TWC)

Maybe the Ohio University Bobcats would have done better than The Ohio State University Buckeyes did?

:D

Not really. The Patriots are redefining greatness. 17-0. Do you understand how amazing this is? Brady is clearly the only man who can be spoken in the same breath as Montana. Bill B will go down as the greatest coach in history.

19-0 is gonna happen. Then there will be NO debate.

Unbelievable...

Unbelievable, no; it's called parity. The teams I mentioned faced much greater competition to acheive what they accomplished. Bill B. Versus Bill W... "Forget about it."

Excellent PQ as always from CBS tonight. I watched the game via digital cable (iO Cablevision).

Not only did my Patriots go 17-0, but so did my Tar Heels, with a huge romp over NC State. Anyways, Jacksonville came in as a legit playoff team with two great tailbacks and a solid QB who rarely throws picks, thefore I expected them to play us close tonight. I predicted a 31-23 win for New England... too bad the Jags didn't get another FG or I would of been dead on.

People have such short memories. :)I may have CRS(Can't Remember $hit);) but I've been watching the NFL since 1965 and the rule is On Any Given Sunday.
And on Every Given Sunday and Saturday the Patriots have won.

I also remember what Hollywood Henderson said about Terry Bradshaw.
He couldn’t spell cat if you spotted him the C and the T.:D

Unbelievable, no; it's called parity. The teams I mentioned faced much greater competition to acheive what they accomplished. Bill B. Versus Bill W... "Forget about it."

You not going to convince anyone of this. Virtually every NFL analyst will admit that what Bill B has achieved is virtually unmatched in the era of the salary cap.

Two more games and Bill Walsh will be an afterthought and Bill B and the 2007-08 Patriots will be etched in eternity.

Montana never had a year like Brady had this year. Brady tonight was as good as Montana every was in the playoffs.

As I said people have short memories.

1990 49ers:

Offense:

QB: 34 y/o Joe Montana

RB: 30 y/o Roger Craig

FB: 28 y/o Tom Rathman

WR: 28 y/o Jerry Rice

WR: 28 y/o John Taylor

TE: 27 y/o Brent Jones

DEFENSE:

LOLB: 26 y/o Charles Haley

FS 31 y/o Ronnie Lott

LILB: 32 y/o Matt Millen

NT: 30 y/o Michael Carter

ROLB: 24 y/o Bill Romanowski

DOBE, you're not going to get an arguement out of me about the Niners.
At one time they had Montana, Young and Bono as quarterbacks.
As fine a defensive & offensive team and organization as there ever was BUT they never did what the Patriots have done and are doing.

It is a great, if not the greatest time to be a fan of professional football.

Parity has been the aim since Pete Rozell was commisioner and that was a long time ago.

I'm jealous.

The macroblocking on motion is HORRIBLE. Not just tonight but ANY CBS broadcast...must be the distribution or feed thru TWC.

Sigh....:(

Erik

This was already explained to you last week. You have a local issue.

Mike4HDTV:

"Very good opening drive by the Jags.

I'm picking the Jags to pull the upset win tonight."

Go Pats.

One turnover too many and a TD catch too short. Close, but not as close as the Ravens. Even if they manage to beat the Colts and win it all i think the 80's Bears and Steeler teams would still own this Patriots team. They're good, but not the best ever. :p Plus lets hope they don't win so i don't have to here my bandwagon brother running his mouth all off-season.


Ahh and the Niners, this is why i don't really like to get into comparing teams from different eras.

Brady set the all-time NFL record for completion % in a game earlier tonight. He has the touchdown record for the season. His passer rating for the year was an absurd high mark (around 119). The Team set several all-time NFL offensive records for a season.

Yeah...Montana and Rice....like 80's rock bands....nostalga is always fun.

If they go 19-0.....the consensus among virtually all NFL/Sports historians will be that this is the best. I understand that there will be a few fans who will hold to the past...but the issue will be settled among the writers and folks who write the history.

Comcast, Southern NH
WBZ out of Boston

Maybe it was just my eyes, but the PQ looked like 16x9 SD upconverted to HD. Not much in the way of blockiness, but there didn't seem to be any sharpness or the detail you normally get with a high resolution picture. It just didn't 'pop' off the screen like it normally does. Could have just been me though.

I would bet on a Bill Walsh "gameplan" over a Bill Belichick game plan any day of the week.

You do realize coach BB has already won 5 SB"s ?

Comcast, Southern NH
WBZ out of Boston

Maybe it was just my eyes, but the PQ looked like 16x9 SD upconverted to HD. Not much in the way of blockiness, but there didn't seem to be any sharpness or the detail you normally get with a high resolution picture. It just didn't 'pop' off the screen like it normally does. Could have just been me though.THANK YOU, I read this whole thread and was starting to wonder if I had to much Yeungling to drink.

I'm watching Comcast in Philly, called my brother in the 1st quarter and said "is it me or does this game look like crap, LOS camera looked soft, SD looking cameras thrown in, and he agreed 100%.
We're both feeding Comcast through projectors (I'm on a 110" screen, he's on a 90") so gains or losses in resolution stand out even more.

And we're not fare weather NFL HD fans, we watch every NFL game every week, and we didn't get the CBS "POP" we're accustomed to....I guess we'll find out in 2 hours for the Indy game.
At one point I thought I bumped the focus on my PJ....but fine tuning that made no change !

Comcast, Southern NH
WBZ out of Boston

Maybe it was just my eyes, but the PQ looked like 16x9 SD upconverted to HD. Not much in the way of blockiness, but there didn't seem to be any sharpness or the detail you normally get with a high resolution picture. It just didn't 'pop' off the screen like it normally does. Could have just been me though.

I thought the game looked very good here in Cleveland (WOIO), but the first few minutes of the game the main camera seemed to struggle with focus issues and bouncy cameras, and the cable cam was not sharp. The cable cam was HD, but not up to the level of clarity I have seen from the CBS overhead cameras before.

No noticeable macroblocking anywhere I could see in the broadcast. The main channel was running a little over 15Mbps with one WeatherNow subchannel fixed at ~2Mbps.

People have such short memories. :)

And haters have such wonderful imaginations. What's the one thing all the teams you mentioned have in common? That's right. They were all BEATABLE.

And haters have such wonderful imaginations. What's the one thing all the teams you mentioned have in common? That's right. They were all BEATABLE.Yeah, but the other factor here is the mediocrity in the NFL.
I mean David Gerrard?? When did he become anything? He had some nice passes, but he's nowhere near ready to take a team to the next level. At least a level to go toe to toe with Brady, Favre, Romo, Manning. We're getting down to the Final Four teams that are simply above the rest.

I like seeing the blowout games when it's a 1 game playoff, so there's no question which team should be moving on. The Jaguars need to go home, so do the Seahawks, and all the losers from last week.

Comcast HD
Southern Delaware County, PA

Lots of audio dropouts, pixelization, motion artifacts throughout the game. This is fairly unusual for CBS3 (Patriots Win #16 looked and sounded fine on CBS3, and noticeably worse on NBC10).

PQ was OK, nothing to write home about.

I must say, even though my setup is 1080 throughout, football on Fox often looks better than it does on CBS.

Watched on WTVRDT CBS HD channel 212 on Comcast in the Richmond Virginia area.

The picture did not always look as sharp as it should. The colors were not as bright as they should be. There were slight blurs [macro blocking] when the on screen action was real fast. CBS broadcasts in 1080i and I suspect that has to be part of the problem.

I have noticed the same problems on all CBS games this year that I have watched [which luckily for me has been very few].

These comments need to be qualified to have any value.
- What is your local CBS station doing? Subchannels or not?
- How are you getting your local CBS station? OTA, Cable, DBS?

As noted many times in the past, live sports in 1080i demands the entire ~19Mbps ATSC bitstream for high quality HDTV. Also, it's a misnomer to believe 1080i is less capable than 720p for live sports; progressive scanning is not a panacea for using ~12% less bandwidth than 1080i.

Primary issues affecting CBS NFL broadcasts are:
1) Subchannels
2) Method of Reception.

1) If a CBS digital station is broadcasting any subchannels, which eat up necessary bandwidth for 1080i sports, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

2) If your Cable or DBS provider is not delivering the HD signal as received, by using either rate shaping or bit shaving, or both, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

For those of us lucky enough to live in an area where a local station is owned by CBS, which does not use subchannels, or in an area where the local station does not use subchannels, and the signal is received either OTA or from a provider that passes the HD signal intact, CBS is the gold standard of NFL HD broadcasting.

This has been born out at AVS consistently since members began to discuss this back in 1988, when CBS broadcast the first NFL game in HD.

On the other hand, due to the 'Splicer' HD delivery system used by FOX, they usually offer more consistent HD to viewers across the country, although they too have various issues; images that appear less sharp than 1080i, and the notorious 'swimming grass'.

Sorry Ken H, but you're OT. :D

And haters have such wonderful imaginations. What's the one thing all the teams you mentioned have in common? That's right. They were all BEATABLE.

Yeah, but the other factor here is the mediocrity in the NFL.
I mean David Gerrard?? When did he become anything? He had some nice passes, but he's nowhere near ready to take a team to the next level. At least a level to go toe to toe with Brady, Favre, Romo, Manning. We're getting down to the Final Four teams that are simply above the rest.

For the record I don't hate the Patriots. I hope you were joking. There's nothing I said that remotely suggested hatred. After the 19-0 season, Belichick and Brady will be in there with the greatest of all time.

Okay, my last post on this subject.

However, only a football lightweight looks at the team record, alone, to determine which is the greatest team of all time. "They were all BEATABLE". The 1972 Dolphins were UNBEATABLE, but they aren't considered the greatest team of all time.

I made my point earlier and thanks Plasma George for picking it up. Parity has significantly watered down the talent that the 17-0 Patriots have had to face.

It's always folly to compare teams of different eras. It is also irresistible. The 49ers team of 1984 lost once, 20-17 to the Pittsburgh Steelers in Week 7 of that season. After that, the 49ers reeled off 12 consecutive victories, including the 38-16 romp over Miami (quarterbacked by Dan Marino) in the Super Bowl.

In terms of the ancient 49ers vs. the modern Patriots, though, the comparisons are easier to assess. Forget about Montana vs. Brady or Moss vs. Rice. That's not the way you match up teams. How would the current Patriots' offense preform against the 49ers' defenses of 1984 or 1990? And vice versa? Mostly, who would win the Walsh vs. Belichick football brainfest?

IMO, Moss would not have run free against a 49ers secondary with Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright as cornerbacks. Fred Dean would have given fits to the Patriots' pass-blockers. And the New England rushing attack, ranked 13th in the league this season, would have gone nowhere against a 49ers defense that stifled future Hall of Famer Walter Payton in the NFC title game. That's the 1984 49ers.

In the 1990 playoffs, the 49ers had Montana; Roger Craig; Tom Rathman; Jerry Rice; John Taylor and Brent Jones on offense.

They had Charles Haley; Ronnie Lott; Matt Millen; Michael Carter and Bill Romanowski on defense.

Yeah, but the other factor here is the mediocrity in the NFL.
I mean David Gerrard??

If Garrard were as mediocre as you said, he would have had more than 3 INTs all season, or every other QB would also be extremely low in the INT department. Want to talk mediocrity, how many +500 teams did Miami have to beat in their undefeated season? Here's a hint: it's less than 1, and more than -1.

Great moment in the game, one of those 'I love our QB' type moments: On that 3rd down conversion when Welker dropped the easy pass with about 6 minutes to go, deep in Jaguar territory; Right afterwards you see Brady walking the sidelines looking furious, then he walks over and rubs Welker's head and gives him a few words of encouragement. Truly the epitome of leadership, so much more than just barking out the plays in the huddle!

These comments need to be qualified to have any value.
- What is your local CBS station doing? Subchannels or not?
- How are you getting your local CBS station? OTA, Cable, DBS?

As noted many times in the past, live sports in 1080i demands the entire ~19Mbps ATSC bitstream for high quality HDTV. Also, it's a misnomer to believe 1080i is less capable than 720p for live sports; progressive scanning is not a panacea for using ~12% less bandwidth than 1080i.

Primary issues affecting CBS NFL broadcasts are:
1) Subchannels
2) Method of Reception.

1) If a CBS digital station is broadcasting any subchannels, which eat up necessary bandwidth for 1080i sports, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

2) If your Cable or DBS provider is not delivering the HD signal as received, by using either rate shaping or bit shaving, or both, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

For those of us lucky enough to live in an area where a local station is owned by CBS, which does not use subchannels, or in an area where the local station does not use subchannels, and the signal is received either OTA or from a provider that passes the HD signal intact, CBS is the gold standard of NFL HD broadcasting.

This has been born out at AVS consistently since members began to discuss this back in 1988, when CBS broadcast the first NFL game in HD.

On the other hand, due to the 'Splicer' HD delivery system used by FOX, they usually offer more consistent HD to viewers across the country, although they too have various issues; images that appear less sharp than 1080i, and the notorious 'swimming grass'.

...for aiding in my understanding. As I've posted two other places in the past 24 hours, there is NO DOUBT that the FOX 720p is best on my beginner's home theater system. I guess I'll give my cable company a call.

These comments need to be qualified to have any value.
- What is your local CBS station doing? Subchannels or not?
- How are you getting your local CBS station? OTA, Cable, DBS?

As noted many times in the past, live sports in 1080i demands the entire ~19Mbps ATSC bitstream for high quality HDTV. Also, it's a misnomer to believe 1080i is less capable than 720p for live sports; progressive scanning is not a panacea for using ~12% less bandwidth than 1080i.

Primary issues affecting CBS NFL broadcasts are:
1) Subchannels
2) Method of Reception.

1) If a CBS digital station is broadcasting any subchannels, which eat up necessary bandwidth for 1080i sports, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

2) If your Cable or DBS provider is not delivering the HD signal as received, by using either rate shaping or bit shaving, or both, it will have a definite negative impact on HD image quality.

For those of us lucky enough to live in an area where a local station is owned by CBS, which does not use subchannels, or in an area where the local station does not use subchannels, and the signal is received either OTA or from a provider that passes the HD signal intact, CBS is the gold standard of NFL HD broadcasting.

This has been born out at AVS consistently since members began to discuss this back in 1988, when CBS broadcast the first NFL game in HD.

On the other hand, due to the 'Splicer' HD delivery system used by FOX, they usually offer more consistent HD to viewers across the country, although they too have various issues; images that appear less sharp than 1080i, and the notorious 'swimming grass'.

I have Comcast cable in the Richmond Virginia area. There are other channels close to the HD channels that I guess are what you call sub channels.

We get the HD channels in question from Comcast cable on...
FOX WRLHD channel 213
CBS WTVRD channel 212

Here are the sub channels on Comcast...
FOX WRLH2 channel 209
CBS WTVR6 channel 206

So you are saying we are not getting the best HD picture quality possible because Comcast has a sub channel for FOX and CBS?

Is there anything that we [Comcast subscribers] can do?

Thanks!

No. The subchannels are a product of the local affiliate. If your local CBS affiliate is on digital channel 8-1, a subchannel (weather radar, SD feed, etc.) would be located at 8-2, 8-3, etc. Those subchannels tap part of channel 8's available bandwidth leaving less bandwidth for the primary HD feed on 8-1.

Most of the time, cable and satellite get that 8-1 HD channel at the same quality that is sent over the air. If the quality is reduced to accommodate subchannels, it is reduced for everyone further down the chain.

The positive comments you see regarding CBS is because we know they are sending a fairly pristine feed out to all of their affiliates. If there is any degradation, we know it must be at the local level.