http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/01/14/wine-brain-behavior.html?dcitc=w01-101-ae-0001

You must read the above (it's short).


Thoughts? Comments? What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?

What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?
There aren't any such people. That's why the pros do blind comparisons.

One difference between wine and wires is that in double blind tests wine lovers can tell differences and wire lovers can't. Indeed, wine lovers embrace DB tests while wire lovers do their best to avoid them.

Indeed, wine lovers embrace DB tests while wire lovers do their best to avoid them.
Wine lovers don't do too many blind tests themselves. And many of them probably are suckers for a price tag. But wine experts are expected to have some facility with actually identifying wine types by taste alone. Audiophiles should ask the same of their "experts."

Once you're made aware of the price, it's hard, I mean really hard, to discount its influence.

Once you're made aware of the price, it's hard, I mean really hard, to discount its influence.

And therein lies the rub in regard to the human perceptual apparatus, and we're all prone to its foibles. Even when we arm ourselves with empirical data from double-blind tests and whatnot, there is always a danger of falling into that trap. Fortunately, if someone buys expensive wire, they're just out more money than they need to have spent...it's not going to kill anyone or cause a plague. :D

But Naked Emperor Syndrome is alive and well...

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

But Naked Emperor Syndrome is alive and well...


sometimes the Emperor has nice clothes (http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/22311-1.html)... only clothes tho

Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.

I think that's the point to mind.

Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.

I think that's the point to mind.

Good point. The wine tasters may have disagreed on which ones tasted better but they did acutally taste a difference. And as a wine lover, but clearly no expert, I can tell the difference between wines 100% of the time in unsighted tasting tests. In fact, that's SOP for us wine nuts. We only look at the bottle AFTER the tasting. But not all of us fit that article. I drink many wines at $15 a bottle and under that are superb. In fact, most wine lovers, not investors, LOOK for excellent wines as cheap as we can find them. Then we share with other enthusiasts and gloat over our finds. :D

In fact, that's SOP for us wine nuts. We only look at the bottle AFTER the tasting. But not all of us fit that article.

Actually, I think the point of the article is that wine tasters should always study the label BEFORE the tasting. That way, you can always be sure your 2000 Chateau Lafite Rothschild will clearly win out over the 2007 Fat Bastard Texas Shiraz.

Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.

I think that's the point to mind.

You are right. The sad thing is that some people still spend a fortune on cables, even though they make no difference at all.

I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile by any stretch, but it's been proven that cat5 cable makes great speaker wire. You can get 1000' spool of quality Belden cat5 for about $100, even locally. So for speaker use, cut that length in half since you need at least one bulk cable for positive, one for negative. 500' of speaker wire for $100, or 20 cents per foot. All you need to do is cut off a couple inches of the sheathing, then strip each wire 1/2" to 1" or so, then twist them together. Solder them to a banana plug or just use them as they are. This will yield something like 14gauge wire. Obviously this works best with stranded core cat5. Just don't go down to your local big chain hardware store and pay for it by the foot, it'll be more like $2.00/ft, and since you need twice the length for speakers, that's $4/ft. I'd love to see a blind test where someone used cheap cat5 cable, and some cables costing 3 figures and see if a group of people could pick the high dollar cable more than the statistical rate of error.

Yes, but Cat5 is 24 gauge IIRC and looks like this.

http://www.intolan.com/images/CAT5%20Cable-No%20Ends.jpg

The net gauge is 18. So, if you cut it in quarters so that you can double it up, you've got 15 gauge (one for positive, one for negative) leaving you with 125 feet. Now, you could just leave it at that. Or, you could cut it in half again and you've got 11 gauge, leaving you with 62 feet. 12 gauge at say PartsExpress for the 'nicer' stuff is about $60. 500' of Cat5e at the same place is about $67.

So, yeah, you can buy that 500' spool but consider that...

it costs a bit more
you've got to cut it to length
you probably ought to braid it
you maybe ought to cover it
you'll be stuck with wire that's pretty friggin inflexible compared to something that's multi-stranded to begin with.

There must be something better to do with one's time that to play Betsy Ross. There's no real net savings and all you've done is proven that you can make the wire you need and take longer to do so.

Yeah, but who needs 500 feet of speaker wire? I bought the 20 feet I needed for less than $10.

It's an investment my man. Copper futures and all that :)

There must be something better to do with one's time that to play Betsy Ross. There's no real net savings and all you've done is proven that you can make the wire you need and take longer to do so.

+1 :D

I've never understood the desire to use Cat5 for speaker wire. It's the wrong stuff for the application. The fact that it works fine should shred the belief in the high-priced stuff, but it doesn't.

A bit more on topic, I think "Everclear" would be a great name for overpriced speaker wire.

As well, Everclear is a great name for moonshine, my friend. I like "fine" wine a lot but "everyday wine" (ie Kendall-Jackson) is just fine for me.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/01/14/wine-brain-behavior.html?dcitc=w01-101-ae-0001

You must read the above (it's short).


Thoughts? Comments? What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?

I only know two types of wines, red and white, and I enjoy drink them but tasting them.

Same thing with my system; I enjoy listening to music a lot more than analytical readings of how the moisture level in my room alters the bass response.

Regardless of the reason for their preference wine lovers can tell a difference and wire lovers can't.

I think that's the point to mind.

No, the point is that even when difference is real, bias for 'preference' still intrudes..and the bias is unrelated to the actual sensory effect supposedly being compared (better 'taste' versus worse taste). The 'effect' of the actual flavor, was being significantly overshadowed by the effect of knowing the price.

Not too that in at least some of the trials, the SAME bottle was presented with two different prices...and tasters reported different flavor (with the pricier 'edition' being better).

No, the point is that even when difference is real, bias for 'preference' still intrudes..and the bias is unrelated to the actual sensory effect supposedly being compared (better 'taste' versus worse taste). The 'effect' of the actual flavor, was being significantly overshadowed by the effect of knowing the price.

Not too that in at least some of the trials, the SAME bottle was presented with two different prices...and tasters reported different flavor (with the pricier 'edition' being better).

You're right, and many marketeers have become rich on this fact (with little substance to back their claims). It's part and parcel of the consumer-based lifestyle.

If I knew then what I know now, I might have chosen a different career. As things become more complex, this will only become more true. These days, people HAVE to believe what they're told to a great extent, so the better salesman wins as long as he isn't TOO deceptive.

+1 :D

I've never understood the desire to use Cat5 for speaker wire. It's the wrong stuff for the application. The fact that it works fine should shred the belief in the high-priced stuff, but it doesn't.

A bit more on topic, I think "Everclear" would be a great name for overpriced speaker wire.

YEah, it's really a very stupid idea. The only time it could be relevant is if for some reason you have a whole buynch of cat5 that you're never going to use, or if you happen to have a whole bunch of cat5 going to and from the locations you need and can't pull speaker wire through there after the fact. Otherwise, it is completely stupid. All you've achieved is twisting together a bunch of little copper strands into one effectively larger one, which is annoying and is costlier than purchasing speaker wire which literally is a whole bunch of copper strands already twisted together for you.

+1 :D

I've never understood the desire to use Cat5 for speaker wire. It's the wrong stuff for the application. The fact that it works fine should shred the belief in the high-priced stuff, but it doesn't.

A bit more on topic, I think "Everclear" would be a great name for overpriced speaker wire.

What makes Cat 5 the wrong stuff?

It's not especially flexible and doesn't lay nicely. Desireable characteristic to many. Like Chris W. said, if you've got it laying around and you want to play Betsy Ross, have at it.

+1 :D

I've never understood the desire to use Cat5 for speaker wire. It's the wrong stuff for the application. The fact that it works fine should shred the belief in the high-priced stuff, but it doesn't.

A bit more on topic, I think "Everclear" would be a great name for overpriced speaker wire.

The reason some people want to braid cat5 is that they want to try to make a very low inductance speaker wire, of course this is at the cost of very high capacitance, which "may" cause the amplifier to oscilate. Some might argue that the small wires will also reduce skin effect. Those people clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

Yea, I agree, it is a pretty foolish idea, right up there with penis enlargement pills...

IMHO, wine itself is analogous to music (or whatever else we listen to), not wire. I think wire would be closely analogous to the glass bottle--that is, they both simply have to carry the stuff without contaminating or messing it up; they don't make it better.

Now that screw tops on wine bottles are gradually becoming more accepted in place of corks, I suppose $75 Monster decanters are inevitable, for making sure all the flavors and bouquets reach your senses at the same time. ;)

Some might argue that the small wires will also reduce skin effect.

Small wires do indeed reduce skin effect.

Those people clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

That is an entirely separate concept...:)

The fact that cat5e and later cables have magnetically orthogonal wire pairs allows one to easy double up to halve the inductance, and of course the penalty is the doubling of capacitance.

Nonetheless, the end result is an asymptotic approach to an effective dielectric constant that of the actual insulation as opposed to the typical 5 to 10 constant offered by simple zip style wire pairs.

Also missed is the settling time vs the cable/load impedance mismatch, equality being zero settling time.

Cheers, John

It is a matter of the significance of the differences. The taste of wine varies significantly so that they are easy to discern in blind taste tests. The sonics of wire are anywhere from subtle to non-existent and therefore are hard to impossible to discern in blind listening tests.

If you conducted a blind listening test comparing a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer against a pair without a subwoofer, the score would likely be 100% audible difference. There really isn't any point in wasting the time with such a bias controlled test. Interconnect wires, ont the other hand........

What about interconnects?

Quick question related to this thread, typical power cords for home audio gear are non-shielded, correct?

I made some power cables for my gear, mainly for fun and aesthetics, and I used a 12 ga non shielded rubber insulated 3 conductor cable, which according to some is very, very bad and I should have used a 7 dollar/foot shielded, teflon coated Belden. So I was wondering if the shielding really was a somewhat critical issue.

Once you're made aware of the price, it's hard, I mean really hard, to discount its influence.Totally agree.

And for subjective evaluation of wine, it's been experimentally verified that price has a profound biasing effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18195362

Same for hookers.

And for subjective evaluation of wine, it's been experimentally verified that price has a profound biasing effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18195362Interesting link. thanks

Wine lovers don't do too many blind tests themselves. And many of them probably are suckers for a price tag. But wine experts are expected to have some facility with actually identifying wine types by taste alone. Audiophiles should ask the same of their "experts."

Experts already know, and don't bother impressing those that have a listening problem when it comes to a differing POV.

Wine experts fail at DBTs occasionally as well. Alas, being human, that can happen.

Same for hookers.

...Which involve all the senses, thereby making the differentiation easier.:D

Experts already know
Correction: Self-proclaimed experts already know. :)

And for subjective evaluation of wine, it's been experimentally verified that price has a profound biasing effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18195362

What's interesting about this study is that they found changes in neural activity; it's been known for a long, long time that people use price as a shortcut for assessing quality in just about anything you care to name. However, there's still no contradiction with the fact that someone who knows wine can pass a blind test.

Do you think students studying the art of winemaking constitute a group that can pass a test?

Read this little study: http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/Morrot.pdf

What's interesting about this study is that they found changes in neural activity; it's been known for a long, long time that people use price as a shortcut for assessing quality in just about anything you care to name. However, there's still no contradiction with the fact that someone who knows wine can pass a blind test.

Not always.

Do you think students studying the art of winemaking constitute a group that can pass a test?

Read this little study: http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/Morrot.pdf

That's a fun read. :)

Still, I'm pretty sure that most anyone could tell the difference between a red zin and a pinot grigio, even blind and after a bottle of thunderbird. I'm not defending wine lunacy, just saying that at least with wines, there's definitely a difference.

Not always.

True, it would depend on the test you've got in mind, for starters. But it's pretty easy to design a test that people would pass.

I think the important thing is that "people are biased by additional information" does not mean "there's no discernable difference between things".

Quick question related to this thread, typical power cords for home audio gear are non-shielded, correct?

I made some power cables for my gear, mainly for fun and aesthetics, and I used a 12 ga non shielded rubber insulated 3 conductor cable, which according to some is very, very bad and I should have used a 7 dollar/foot shielded, teflon coated Belden. So I was wondering if the shielding really was a somewhat critical issue.

Yes, non-shielded is great, and rubber is excellent for this sort of application (which, in the industry, is known as "portable cordage") because of its excellent flexibility characteristics. Unless you have a peculiar problem where your power cord is serving as an antenna for RFI pickup or some such thing (very rare, though not unheard of), shielding on a power cord is pretty useless, and it tends to compromise flexibility and make it harder to get an appropriate fire rating/UL listing.

The Belden cable you mention is, if it's the same as the one I'm thinking of, not intended for power cord use. There's no reason to use Teflon unless you need a plenum rating (very, VERY unusual for portable cordage--why would you be running it in a plenum?). Better to use as portable cordage something which was actually DESIGNED as portable cordage, rather than pulling something like a plenum fire-alarm cable and hoping it'll have appropriate flex and other characteristics. And $7.00/ft may be the going rate for short cuts of large-gage plenum fire alarm cable, but it's a heck of a lot of money to shell out for a power cord.

In sum: it sounds to me like you picked a good product to make your power cords with. Unless it causes some kind of problem, I wouldn't go looking for excuses to swap it out.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/index.htm)

What about interconnects?

I was just pointing out areas where bias controlled testing isn't necessary because audible differences are significant. I used the sub/sat example. Interconnects are an area where they are not significant. Biases play an almost exclusive role in interconnect audible differences.

Would people say that an unaltered Pinot Grigio tastes the same as one that's had coloring to it?

Would people say that an unaltered Pinot Grigio tastes the same as one that's had coloring to it?

I doubt it. I bet they'd claim there was a difference.

An audio equivalent might be playing a track back and forth while tweaking some EQ, compressor, or whatever, until it was 'just right', and then realizing the equipment wasn't even in the signal path.

High end audio cable like fine wine?

No matter how much or what kind you Drink.....

it still comes out Yellow!! ;)

I was just pointing out areas where bias controlled testing isn't necessary because audible differences are significant. I used the sub/sat example. Interconnects are an area where they are not significant. Biases play an almost exclusive role in interconnect audible differences.

Differences are audibly significant for many loudspeakers. But evaluations/auditions are still optimally done blind, because perception of 'sound quality' is highly biased by nonaudible factors. cf the work of Toole and Olive in JAES

I doubt it. I bet they'd claim there was a difference.

An audio equivalent might be playing a track back and forth while tweaking some EQ, compressor, or whatever, until it was 'just right', and then realizing the equipment wasn't even in the signal path.

...a trick performed by more than one exasperated recording engineer to soothe a stroppy producer/client. ;)

...a trick performed by more than one exasperated recording engineer to soothe a stroppy producer/client. ;)

Even without exasperation, I've experienced the phenomenon where the artist asks for, say, more high mid in the monitors, I look up to make eye contact as I reach for the EQ knob, the artist interprets the eye contact as "how's that?", and before I've even changed anything, he says, "Yes, that's it. Perfect!"

Never mind...damned link is blocked :(

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/01/14/wine-brain-behavior.html?dcitc=w01-101-ae-0001

You must read the above (it's short).


Thoughts? Comments? What about those who could care less about price and pay attention to their senses?

www.kimber.com

www.kimber.com

There's one born every minute. From Kimber's Web site:

KIMBER KABLE products are created using our own OSCaR engineering process. OSCaR stands for Objective Subjective Correlation and Results. Through this process we make the estimable and critical link between scientific measurements and listening impressions. This process is aided in great measure by our exceptionally advanced test and research facility, which is regarded as one of the most well equipped in the audio industry. In addition, KIMBER KABLE also has a vast research library which allows our engineering team access to past research as well as the latest technologies.

With all that, you'd think they could make something more sophisticated than cables.

What about "flat" wire that is easily fished under a carpet let's say? Is this stuff reasonably good? Should/could it be combined with heavy gauge "real" copper speaker wire? If I need to get this stuff (to please the misses) can I use it on the one speaker and keep the "good" stuff on the other speaker, or should I replace both sides?

There's one born every minute. From Kimber's Web site:



With all that, you'd think they could make something more sophisticated than cables.

LOL, so true, an Army intelligence thing! And I know Ray Kimber, and he uses his copper stuff, not his proclaimed signal smoothing silver interconnects! Oxymoron big time. :D

I think it goes "military intelligence" is an oxymoron. Not specifically Army.

A good laugh for those of us who were in the service, but maybe the humor has started to wear thin by now..........

Anyway, maybe there IS a difference between "fine" (re extremely expensive) wine and expensive cable. Here's the only difference to me: by the third glass of "fine" wine any subtle difference in taste is lost to me. The "subtle" difference between expensive and inexpensive cable has never been apparent to me.

Of course on another thread, some poster wrote that his $750 cable is obvious in his system and we don't hear it because either our system is shi*t or our ears are shi*t.

Personally, I think his post is sh*t.

LOL, good wisdom. My test score was too high for Army :eek:, but as in the Air Force and all other branches there is a mix of IQ's in defence.

Correction: Self-proclaimed experts already know. :)

Defied seemingly by people outside of their professions that like to parrot as opposed to learning.:rolleyes:

i like ta stumble down 2 da local discownt bev'radge n scarf up a bott el of whatever 1.5L is $7.99 or less.
dats my fyne wyne.:eek: smokes good in a hookah too!

2 go with my dollar store rca interconnects.

nuttin' but da best, 4 me.

And for subjective evaluation of wine, it's been experimentally verified that price has a profound biasing effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18195362

And worse, the price of wine often follows the results of reviews by experts in publications. I'm glad of that because I tend to like the wines the reviewers don't like. I'll take "fruity" any day over "complex." Fruity wines are cheaper than complex ones - and tastier in my opinion.

High end audio cable like fine wine?

No matter how much or what kind you Drink.....

it still comes out Yellow!! ;)

Yeah, you hope a white urine not a red!