I want to try a G90 blend, so I need a blender ...If anyone knows a good (cheap) source for a Di Ventix DVX8022

Viscount video sells them but they also sell the TV-One C2-7000 series scalers that do blending and TV-One has great customer support, they will listen to your nees and try to impliment them into the latest firmwear. here is a link to the C2-7110

http://www.viscountvideo.com/product_659_detailed.htm

This is the unit I plan on getting.

Athanasios

Thanks Athanasios, price aside, how does it compare to the DVX8022?

I don't think you will find a "cheap" source for the blendzilla. Every now and then they do show up on Ebay.

Thanks Athanasios, price aside, how does it compare to the DVX8022?
AFAIK, there has been no direct comparison between the 2 in terms of blending performance.

MadMrH knows more about the TVOne solutions as he has been working with them directly.

If you really want a Blendzilla, talk to Tim Martin directly - he knows more about those Di Ventix boxes than anyone here

AFAIK, there has been no direct comparison between the 2 in terms of blending performance.

I have done a comparison of the two, the DVX8022 and the TVOne C2-7000.
The 8022, I had quite a bit of experience with here and found it to be a good blender but with some querks. This would include that if you changed the blend zone (covering pattern) the projector would not be aligned any longer and you would have to redo that, as well as one output setup per input, which makes no sense to me at all if you don't want to use an external box for aspect ratio control. On the plus side, I likes the computer interface and the ability to change the "curves" in real time to work on the blend zone.
With the C2-7000 it took me a few days to get my mind around how it works and sets up in that it uses individual controls for each of it's scalers to control everything. But once you get used to that, it's off to the races. If you change the blend zone size, the projectors stay in alignment which allows you to tweak the blend zone for good blending. You can set up macro's for three different setups for aspect ratio control. And get this, you can create individual resolutions and refresh rates so long as you stay with their pixel clock requirements. Adjusting the blend zone was a snap taing less that 10 min once the projectors were aligned.
One down side to the C2-7000 is that it will now accept 1080P60 as an input. The computer interface is OK but when blending still required setting the individual channels up rather that cone adjustment for say "gamma" in the blend zone. I guess there are +'s and -'s to this.
In this case we will be feeding it 1080P24 and then sending 1600 x 1200 @72hz to two G90 projectors for HD-DVD and BluRay playback. For HDTV we will send the unit 1080i60 and 720P60 and upscale.
Overall I am very pleased with what I have seen so far and would say that considering the additional cost of an external scaler for A/R is requirements for the 8022, and the less cost of the C2-7000, this unit definately requires consideration if blending is in your future.

Terry

Great post Terry.

The 7000 isn't HDCP compliant is it?

Does the box act as a VP like the little C2-250s?

Yes it does act like a VP. When i had the demo unit i only had one PJ running when i got it so i set it up as a single scaler and played around with the edge blending functions and the pic quality is very very very good. I could see no difference betweeen my Lumagen HDQ and the Tv-One unit.The interface like Terry says is a little difficult to get used to but so was the lumagens at first as all things sometimes are. The best thing about Tv_one is their willingness to listen to problems of individuals needs and impimenting thoses new features into the firmwear and softwear up dates.
They have other units that are single scalers with blending, two would be needed and are less expensive as with the C2-2250 i have found for 1900 or soso for under 4000 you can have a blending unit but you will need a splitter,I have a geffen 1x2 splitter so i might end up going with two units and the smaller units have no fans which i like. The C2-7000 series have fans that have a high pitched sound, i'm sure you could change them out but not sure if it would void the warranty. Id also give Tv-one a serious look as the cheapest non pc blend solution.

Athanasios

Athanasios, thanks mate. Always enjoy reading your posts.

Because so many of my movies are 'scope, the idea of stacking is much less appealing. There is something to be said for 88% phosphor usage with a dual 4:3 blended setup --> 2:40 screen.

I don't like the idea of floor mounting though - has anyone done a blend with a pair of G90s, roof mounted?

With the advent of Mike Parker's new G90 mods, I'm getting ... itchy.

The interface like Terry says is a little difficult to get used to but so was the lumagens at first as all things sometimes are.
Athanasios

The hardest thing for me to get used to was the idea that the C2-7000 was two processors and you have to tweak each of them seperately any time you want to make a change. Heck I could even tun two different resolutions if I wanted in a blended situation.
I have the PC interface hooked up but only used that to create custom resolutions. I was able to get used to the LCD display and control so rigt now I can run through the setup parameters pretty quickly without the PC.

Terry

The 7000 isn't HDCP compliant is it?

As is the case with commercial gear no HDCP. So in this case, I have HDMI out of the HD-DVD going into the Moome External Box, DVI -> DVI into the 7000, then DVI -> HDMI intp Moome cards in the PJ.

Terry

I don't like the idea of floor mounting though - has anyone done a blend with a pair of G90s, roof mounted?

Although the tests I just performed were done so on modded 9500's on carts, the 7000 is being tested for a system we will be doing using a pair of G90's ceiling mounted on a 2.40 screen 11' wide. Should be quite a picture!!

Terry

The hardest thing for me to get used to was the idea that the C2-7000 was two processors and you have to tweak each of them seperately any time you want to make a change. Heck I could even tun two different resolutions if I wanted in a blended situation.
I have the PC interface hooked up but only used that to create custom resolutions. I was able to get used to the LCD display and control so rigt now I can run through the setup parameters pretty quickly without the PC.

Terry

Cool If i run into any problems I might have to have you Give me some pointers....that is once i get a blend unit.

Athanasios

I don't like the idea of floor mounting though - has anyone done a blend with a pair of G90s, roof mounted?

Yep!!!! :D

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff20.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff21.jpg

Cliff

Yep!!!! :D



http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/82/cliff21yv6.jpg

Cliff

/Bites Nails :eek:

Oh :)

I know its silly, despite not liking floor mounting, I keep worrying about 110kg falling on my head. Back in the late 90s, a nightclub here in Melbourne had a CRT that fell and landed on some poor girl.

Looking at those two G90s, the wooden frame doesn't (it obviously is) look sturdy enough. Does anyone use safety chains?

Terry: PLEASE show us some screenshots once you've got that dream system up and going.

Oh :)

I know its silly, despite not liking floor mounting, I keep worrying about 110kg falling on my head. Back in the late 90s, a nightclub here in Melbourne had a CRT that fell and landed on some poor girl.

Looking at those two G90s, the wooden frame doesn't (it obviously is) look sturdy enough. Does anyone use safety chains?

Terry: PLEASE show us some screenshots once you've got that dream system up and going.

Dude, Arli and I (250lbs each PLUS at the time) swung around on that thing like MONKEYS before we mounted the projectors. They weren't going anywhere even with it being only a temp setup. :D;)

Cliff

The 8022, I had quite a bit of experience with here and found it to be a good blender but with some querks. This would include that if you changed the blend zone (covering pattern) the projector would not be aligned any longer and you would have to redo that
This is odd, mine doesn't do that?? Can you explain this a little more?


Overall I am very pleased with what I have seen so far and would say that considering the additional cost of an external scaler for A/R is requirements for the 8022
I have always recommended those who asked me about the DVX to include an external VP if planning to blend with the 8022 :)


In this case we will be feeding it 1080P24 and then sending 1600 x 1200 @72hz to two G90 projectors for HD-DVD and BluRay playback
Wow! 1600x1200@72, that's a lot of bandwidth... good thing MP is on the job ;)

Sounds like the TVOne is a great unit, particularly with Andy's input, but the lack of any decent digital input/output throughput was a deal breaker for me

I have always recommended those who asked me about the DVX to include an external VP if planning to blend with the 8022 :)


Gino, what is your favorite processor so far? For my setup, it's been and still is the VP50.

Cliff

Wow Cliff those pictures of the blend really take me back. Time flys, and boy has that room changed.

Wow Cliff those pictures of the blend really take me back. Time flys, and boy has that room changed.

Dude, you better be at home or I'm going to beat you. ;)

Yep and a good chunk of it is thanks to you big dog.

Cliffy

[Sounds like the TVOne is a great unit, particularly with Andy's input, but the lack of any decent digital input/output throughput was a deal breaker for me][/QUOTE]

Gino - I think the TVONE units will accept up to 1920X1080P@30Hz from their digital (DVI) input. If this is correct, then why can't you use something like the VP50 for AR control and input switching, and then have the TVONE change refresh to 48, 50, 60, 72 or 75 as you need? Just set the VP50 for either 24 or 30 output.

Hi,

has anybody any experience in edge blending with Immersaview's Sol7 software-based solution?

From http://immersaview.com/sol7.html :

What does Sol7 do?
Sol7 corrects imagery for projecting:
- onto non-planar screen shapes such as curved screens;
- from unusual angles;
- a seamless image from multiple projectors; or
- any combination of the above.

Where can I use Sol7?
Sol7 is a versatile software tool that can be used to:
- align real-time content onto curved and non-planar screens;
- align movies etc. onto curved and non-planar screens;
- edge blend multiple projectors;
- align and edge blend multi-projector displays;
- align and edge blend stereoscopic displays;
- align and edge blend curved screen simulation displays; and
- align unique point-of-sale displays.

How does Sol7 work?
Sol7 presents a checker board and blending screen that:
- is intuitively manipulated using a mouse;
- has fine and course adjustment for ease of use;
- interactively adds or removes control points;
- blends each screen edge;
- has individual gamma control for each edge blend.

Why choose Sol7?
Sol7 delivers next generation performance by leveraging the power of the Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) in the host computer.
- Zero or negligible latency.
- Resolution is only limited to that provided by the GPU.
- No need to reconfigure for different resolutions.

The user interface is easy to use, providing:
- simple mouse and keyboard operation;
- real-time responsiveness;
- supports incremental changes;
- configuration of complex displays in minutes.
Yet under the hood lies a powerful and sophisticated system.
Some of the features include:
- bi-cubic mapping;
- multi-head image generator support;
- multiple independent blending regions;
- dynamically loadable and configurable.


Thanks,

Pier

[Sounds like the TVOne is a great unit, particularly with Andy's input, but the lack of any decent digital input/output throughput was a deal breaker for me]

Gino - I think the TVONE units will accept up to 1920X1080P@30Hz from their digital (DVI) input. If this is correct, then why can't you use something like the VP50 for AR control and input switching, and then have the TVONE change refresh to 48, 50, 60, 72 or 75 as you need? Just set the VP50 for either 24 or 30 output.

The Tv-one has many inputs digital and analog and it does aspect ratio very well on its own. You can basicaly set up any output resolution or aspect ratio custom to any extent, remember these have edge blending for the tops and bottoms so you can do weird displays in the comercial field like say a cross shaped screen or L shaped ect. I think it is the most versitil Blending scaler out there and i cant wait to get one or two;)

Athanasios

This is odd, mine doesn't do that?? Can you explain this a little more?

As you change the "covering" pattern slider, the alignment between the two projectors changes. ie, there is one spot on the covering pattern where the alignment for the PJ's is correct.


Sounds like the TVOne is a great unit, particularly with Andy's input, but the lack of any decent digital input/output throughput was a deal breaker for me

This you will have to explain to me. The unit has 3 DVI inputs so it isn't a physical limitation. If you are referring to it's lack of 1080P60 in support, then yes I agree it is a limitation.
However it's ability to accept 1080P24 and scale that to 72hz at ANY custom resolution so long as you stay within their Pixed Clock requirements is a very strong point. On the 8022 you are forced to go down a resolution in order to support 72hz.

And lets look at the purpose of a scaler with the 8022 for a minure.
* First Aspect ratio control, can somply be done with Macros on the C2-7000
* Scaling 1080i60, HD TV material
* Video switching, with 3 inputs the C2 has that covered.

So there are some plus's and minus's in both camps. But with all the plus's the C2-7000 has to offer (#input's, price, no scaler needed, blending ability, custom resolutions and refresh rates), I believe it is a clear winner.

Terry

Gino - I think the TVONE units will accept up to 1920X1080P@30Hz from their digital (DVI) input. If this is correct, then why can't you use something like the VP50 for AR control and input switching, and then have the TVONE change refresh to 48, 50, 60, 72 or 75 as you need? Just set the VP50 for either 24 or 30 output.

Or just buy an HDDVD/Blu Ray player that outputs 1080P24 and use it for DVD's as well, or use a HTPC and output 1080P24, and for TV use 1080i60 or 720p60 for the TVOne inputs. So as I see it the limitation of not accepting 1080P60 as an input is not a big deal. Especially considering everyone is on this 72hz kick for smoothness anyway.

Terry

Yep and a good chunk of it is thanks to you big dog.

Cliffy

Hey, hey, hey, don't forget about the imported Canadian help to put up the black felt over the screen..;) I held the measuring tape and everything..:p

Terry & Boilermaker - I must be missing something. On TVOne's website, the spec sheet says for both input and output: Computer Resolutions Analog: Up to 2048x2048, DVI: Up to 1280x1024??? I asked Andy/MadMrH to comment, he says that even though the DVI spec supports up to 165Mhz, the 7200's are using an older chip and are limited to 1280x1024 input and output.

As you change the "covering" pattern slider, the alignment between the two projectors changes. ie, there is one spot on the covering pattern where the alignment for the PJ's is correct.
Terry, still don't see the problem here. What alignment changes exactly?

And lets look at the purpose of a scaler with the 8022 for a minure.
* First Aspect ratio control, can somply be done with Macros on the C2-7000
* Scaling 1080i60, HD TV material
* Video switching, with 3 inputs the C2 has that covered.

VP's do other things too ;) eg. CMS, gamma bumps, grey scale tweaking, deinterlacing modes, audio selection, detail enhancement, noise reduction etc....

So there are some plus's and minus's in both camps. But with all the plus's the C2-7000 has to offer (#input's, price, no scaler needed, blending ability, custom resolutions and refresh rates), I believe it is a clear winner. This would hold true if its scaling/deinterlacing abilities were on par with top stand alone scalers such as the VP50Pro and RadianceXD, if they are or not, wouldn't know, care to comment?

Also, with a limited input and output DVI, as I said is a deal breaker for me and puts it behind the DVX

Gino, what is your favorite processor so far? For my setup, it's been and still is the VP50.
I have the VP50Pro with HD-SDI, but I'm still waiting for lumagen to release the Radiance Pro, they are doing some great things with CMS, and also 21 point greyscale and gamma parametric adjustment

Terry & Boilermaker - I must be missing something. On TVOne's website, the spec sheet says for both input and output: Computer Resolutions Analog: Up to 2048x2048, DVI: Up to 1280x1024??? I asked Andy/MadMrH to comment, he says that even though the DVI spec supports up to 165Mhz, the 7200's are using an older chip and are limited to 1280x1024 input and output.

Gino - While there is a bandwidth limitation on the digital inputs and outputs, the input is not a limitation as it will accept 1080P@30Hz, and just use the analog output to feed your projectors. The analog outputs can go all the way to 2048 X 2048 @ 150Hz!
Unless you insist on doing the final D/A conversion somewhere else, there shouldn't be a problem.

Gino - I also have the VP50Pro with HDSDI. Have you noticed that there is a compatibility problem with JVB's HDSDI conversions? I talked with JVB yesterday and they said that they hope to have a solution within the next couple of weeks. Lets hope so!

Terry & Boilermaker - I must be missing something. On TVOne's website, the spec sheet says for both input and output: Computer Resolutions Analog: Up to 2048x2048, DVI: Up to 1280x1024??? I asked Andy/MadMrH to comment, he says that even though the DVI spec supports up to 165Mhz, the 7200's are using an older chip and are limited to 1280x1024 input and output.

Gino - While there is a bandwidth limitation on the digital inputs and outputs, the input is not a limitation as it will accept 1080P@30Hz, and just use the analog output to feed your projectors. The analog outputs can go all the way to 2048 X 2048 @ 150Hz!
Unless you insist on doing the final D/A conversion somewhere else, there shouldn't be a problem.

There are two things I noticed with the C2-260 cards:

First there was indeed a limitation to 1280 x 1024 at the input side, this means that no more than 1280 horizontal pixels could be resolved across the two projectors. For me this goes against the concept of having higher resolving capability with a blend.

As TVOne staff told me the input chip responsible for this is in their other solutions as well, so me and Gino got the same info about this.

Second: Pixels are remapped when the incoming signal is processed for blending. As most of us feed with a scaler this is uncalled for and leads to unnecessary image degradation.
I do not know if this also applies for the higher end models of the TVOne line but it would easy to verify if this is the case for some poster on this forum who tested them.

And last but not least I completely agree with Terry - the blend zone can be worked on very nicely, TvOne did a great job on it. Too bad the other areas of importance were not covered as nicely with the model I tested. Here's hoping for improvements to be made that make the next generation of cards capable of resolving 1920 x 1080 pixels properly without remapping.

According to the C2-7000 manual:
********************************************************
18.5 Input/Output Range
RGBHV (DVI-A) Connection:
Computer Resolutions Any from 640x480 to 2048x2048 including HDTV
Resolutions 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Max Vertical Refresh Rate 250Hz. Max Horizontal Frequency 150kHz
DVI-D Connection:
Computer Resolutions any from 640x480 to 1280x1024@60 including HDTV
Resolutions 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i. Maximum pixel rate: 108MHz

SDI / HD-SDI serial digital video Connection:
SMPTE 259M-C: 525/625-line 270Mbps
(270Mbps) SD-SDI jitter (100kHz) approx. 0.070 +/-0.01 UI
SMPTE 292M: 720p 23.98/24/25/29.97/30/50/59.94/60Hz
(1.485/1.4835Gbps) 1035i 29.97/30Hz
1080i 25/29.97/30Hz
1080p 23.98/24/25/29.97/30Hz
*********************************************************
Now I am becoming a bit confused.
For this testing, I am feeding 1080P24 via HDMI to the Moome EXT-HD: External HDMI/Component Converter. I am assuming that the HDMI coming from the HD-DVD player is digital.
I am then coming out the Moome on the "test" DVI port which in Moome's description he says "DIGITAL OUTPUT: DVI-D output for driving LCD monitors and other devices for testing purposes (optional)." So it sounds like a DVD-D and that would also imply a digital signal.

Now the C2-7000 says that it's DVI-D connection is resolutions up to 1280 x 1024@60 and HDTV Resolutions 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i. Maximum pixel rate: 108MHz. That would imply that it won't accept the 1080P24 I am feeding it and clearly it will not accept 1080P60 when I tried it. Also when I look at what is being accepted into the C2-7000 it clearly states 1080P24. This would imply that I am really feeding the C2-7000 DVI-A as 1080P24 is within that spec and not within the spec of the DVI-D.

When I set up the output from the C2-7000 I set it to 1600 x 1200@72 and clearly that is what is being output to the projectors as I can see that in the frequencies at the projectors themselves. This also implies DVI-A.

But then this DVI output from the C2-7000 is being fed into the 9500's via Moome input cards which according to their spec's are "100% digital HDMI (female)" According to the definition of HDMI "HDMI is backward-compatible with the single-link Digital Visual Interface carrying digital video (DVI-D or DVI-I, but not DVI-A)"

So my question is where is the HDMI signal (digital??) being converted to DVD-A (analog)?? Is this what the Moome box is doing even though they state that they are DVD-D?? If the Moome input card in the 9500 is really 100% digital as stated, then how is it the 1600 x 1200 @72 output is being accepted from the C2-7000 when it's specs state that it cannot do a resolution that high out of it's DVD-D??

Am I making any sense?? I am very confused now as to what is going on here.

Terry

I thought the same thing about that too. It was last year and can't remember but if I remember correctly i tired sending 1080p24 into the Tv-0ne then set the Tv-0ne to pass through( I think it has a pass through setting) into my Lumagen to see what the input was coming in as on it and the Lumagen accepted 1080p24. So I think the specs are under rated for the Tv-one. Terry can you try this as well if you still Have the TV-one unit in house.

Here is a quote from their promotional material:

4:4:4 sampling provides full bandwidth color which allows precise keying, including Transparent (Soft) Keys. The 9 video inputs can accommodate signals (either analog or digital, video or computer) in a variety of formats and resolutions. It handles all known HDTV formats plus any analog RGB resolution up to 2048x2048 - and new resolutions can be easily added.

This leads me to believe that all known HDTV formats includes 1080p24 and that statement that new resolutions can be added lends me to think they will listen to what we want and can add that resolution ,say 1080p60.

Also from their spec sheet:


Max Vert Refresh Rate 250Hz
Max Horiz Frequency 150KHz
HDTV Resolutions 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p (Note 3)


Terry forgot to see the 1080p this wasn't on their older spec sheet i downloaded before.

I just think the sheet isn't correct since Terry has the all digital Moome hdmi card working with the Tv-one and I remember my Lummy showing 1080p24.

Also if you pay attention closley to this spec:



Computer Resolutions: Up to 2048x2048
DVI: Up to 1280x1024


This means Only computer resolutions, the other spec is for HDTV resolutions only. As I vaguely remember talking with Dan Gibson about this, as I was also confused about the way it was described on the spec sheet. They should have it say "HDTV resolutions: DVI & analog 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p."

Hope this helps

Athanasios

PS also look at the C2-2250 specs http://www.tvone.com/c2-2200-2250-specifications.shtml they list the resolutions there differently as well, still a bit confusing but better. I think they need to hire a tech writer who has used and understands the products.

There are two things I noticed with the C2-260 cards:

First there was indeed a limitation to 1280 x 1024 at the input side, this means that no more than 1280 horizontal pixels could be resolved across the two projectors. For me this goes against the concept of having higher resolving capability with a blend.

I assume you are referring to the RGB input on the 260? The spec sheet claims "PC resolutions" of up to 2048x2048, for both input and output. Did you find this not to be the case?

I assume you are referring to the RGB input on the 260? The spec sheet claims "PC resolutions" of up to 2048x2048, for both input and output. Did you find this not to be the case?

It does not say you can INPUT 2048 x 2048 !

I was asking TV One about my problems and was told that 1280 x 1024 is a high as they would go that was the rez by the way that I found could be displayed without completely losing it for the horizontal resolution. So I tried to stay within the pixelclock of this resolution and fed it 1920 x 800 x 44 Hz to be able to output a HD scope image and the alternating 1 pixels lines in my test signals completely disappeared.

I tried a few more things but there was a lack of transparency due to both input bandwidth and probably horizontal pixel number limitation and due to the image being rescaled for blending.

Oliver,

I'm not doubting your observations, but unless I'm missing something, that is exactly what TV One has stated in their spec sheet:

http://www.tvone.com/pdf/SpecSheet-C2-260.pdf

Computer Input
..
PC Resolutions Any up to 2048x2048
HDTV Resolutions Any up to 1080p
..

The problem is the limited DVI input/output, not analog, as has been mentioned, analog can handle 2048x2048 and up to 250Hz

The TVOne units are great if you want to stay in the analog domain, but for me wanting everything digital until the moome VIMs, it doesn't appear to be compatible. The DVI chips are limited as has been said by Andy and now Oliver after speaking with TVOne staff

The TVOne units are great if you want to stay in the analog domain, but for me wanting everything digital until the moome VIMs, it doesn't appear to be compatible.

Fussy! Maybe the (hopefully it's being worked on) coming standalone blend box will be the ticket for you.

How important is it to genlock the two processors? I ask because while it's easily done in the dual scaler boxes, the single scalers can only do it when the input is SD through the composite or s-video inputs.

Fussy! Maybe the (hopefully it's being worked on) coming standalone blend box will be the ticket for you.

Blendzilla already affords me this all digital path right up to the moome's, why shouldn't I be fussy? I was keen to maybe switch to the TVOne's before I knew of their digital limitation because of their great support, custom resolutions, and IR control

Oliver,

I'm not doubting your observations, but unless I'm missing something, that is exactly what TV One has stated in their spec sheet:

http://www.tvone.com/pdf/SpecSheet-C2-260.pdf

Computer Input
..
PC Resolutions Any up to 2048x2048
HDTV Resolutions Any up to 1080p
..

I am very surprised about this, never saw that before and it certainly is a complete misrepresentation of what the cards did when I had them.

The problem is the limited DVI input/output, not analog, as has been mentioned, analog can handle 2048x2048 and up to 250Hz

The TVOne units are great if you want to stay in the analog domain, but for me wanting everything digital until the moome VIMs, it doesn't appear to be compatible. The DVI chips are limited as has been said by Andy and now Oliver after speaking with TVOne staff

Andy, the analog inputs also are limited to 1280 x 1024 at least on the cards.
And by the look of the picture degradation from just passing 1280 x 1024 through the TVOne I would say it would not be worth it anyway - the A/D D/A conversion in the box is at least one too many from what it looked like, the picture looked pretty bad. I cannot comment on the digital in digital out boxes though, I have only experience with the C2-260 cards.

Anyway, if you got 1:1 pixel mapping and can feed the Diventix with a scaler you are probably pretty much set.

Andy, the analog inputs also are limited to 1280 x 1024 at least on the cards.
And by the look of the picture degradation from just passing 1280 x 1024 through the TVOne I would say it would not be worth it anyway - the A/D D/A conversion in the box is at least one too many from what it looked like, the picture looked pretty bad. I cannot comment on the digital in digital out boxes though, I have only experience with the C2-260 cards.

Anyway, if you got 1:1 pixel mapping and can feed the Diventix with a scaler you are probably pretty much set.
Was this directed to me Oliver? (It's Gino, not Andy)

On the 7200 units, the analogs for both input and output do support 2048x2048 as tested by Andy.

The Diventix would be perfect if it supported custom resolutions as the TVOne does, but unfortunately I'm stuck at 1400x1050@72 output to each projector. Not a huge issue since most of my watching is cinemascope and it does a decent job upscaling ~800 lines to 1050 (no real picture loss), but any 1.78 material with 1080 lines of information means downscaling to 1050 lines and I don't like the idea of losing lines :o

Am I making any sense?? I am very confused now as to what is going on here.
You are making sense, and understandably it is confusing. I'd say that fact, moome external is digital signal only. the 7200 is reading this as 1080p24 input as confirmed. if DVI supports 1080i60, then 1080p24 is within spec.

What doesn't make sense is being able to send out 1600x1200@72 via DVI to each projector. Does it say whether the output connection on the 7200 is DVI-I. This would mean it does both digital and analog over that interface. Can we confirm moome's internal VIM's do not accept DVI-A? If they are indeed 100% DVI-D only, then obviously you are sending digital from the 7200. Now, can we confirm that 1600x1200@72 is actually being sent over DVI with another display device? Reason I ask, perhaps it is simultaneously outputting over VGA and DVI, and just reporting the output as 1600x1200 and sending that out over VGA, and then automatically downrezzing to 1024 over DVI???

Am I making sense? ;) I'd really like to know, if it is an error on the spec sheet and DVI does support higher pixel rates, then I may reconsider again. Maybe newer units support the better DVI spec?

All I know is that It has a great picture all on its own as a scaler. I tried it with out the lumagen in the chain and it it looked as good if not better than what i was seeing with the lumagen alone. What i dont understand is how everyone thinks its limited pixel clock. the specs dont say what that is, unles sample rate is that same thing ? is it? And if it is the same then your Diventix being limited to 1400x1050x72 is a pixel clock rate of about 105mhz which the 7000 will easily do. The literature fort he C2-7200 also says it will be able to have one to one pixel mapping for almost any display out there. To me that means it will be able to do displays that have 1080p72mhz capability which is hiher than the 108mhz SAMPLE RATE(what ever this is). I dont think that the sample rate is the pixel clock rate, some one correct me or show me otherwise I really want to know for sure.

I looked up on google pixek clock and sample rate for video and to me they are two different things.

Athanasios

I have spoken with TVONE tech support twice and they both agreed on the following:
1. All models will accept 2048X2048 inputs in analog only.
2. Models with digital inputs will accept up to and including 1920X1080P @30Hz.
3. All models will output up to 2048 X 2048 at up to 250Hz in analog form.
4. All models with digital outputs are limited to the same restrictions as the digital input.
5. Yes - The digital output is DVI-I so that it can be used for both analog or digital displays.

I obviously cannot confirm any of this as I don't have possession of any.

Gino - I know you want to use Moome's digital input card to your projectors, but wouldn't you choose the scenario that used the best D/A converter? If someone could pull the cover off the Diventix, the TVONE and get the # on the D/A converters it could be compared to Moome's. Just a thought.
If the TVONE can really output 2048 X 2048 at 250 Hz., it must have a very fast D/A converter!
I really want to know what the capabilities of this box is, as I will soon be ready to pull the trigger on one.

Thanks

You are making sense, and understandably it is confusing. I'd say that fact, moome external is digital signal only. the 7200 is reading this as 1080p24 input as confirmed. if DVI supports 1080i60, then 1080p24 is within spec.

What doesn't make sense is being able to send out 1600x1200@72 via DVI to each projector. Does it say whether the output connection on the 7200 is DVI-I. This would mean it does both digital and analog over that interface. Can we confirm moome's internal VIM's do not accept DVI-A? If they are indeed 100% DVI-D only, then obviously you are sending digital from the 7200. Now, can we confirm that 1600x1200@72 is actually being sent over DVI with another display device? Reason I ask, perhaps it is simultaneously outputting over VGA and DVI, and just reporting the output as 1600x1200 and sending that out over VGA, and then automatically downrezzing to 1024 over DVI???

Am I making sense? ;) I'd really like to know, if it is an error on the spec sheet and DVI does support higher pixel rates, then I may reconsider again. Maybe newer units support the better DVI spec?

Ah good someone read my post above.

Since the C2-7000 has a DVI-I (which is DVI-D as well as DVI-A) I cannot conclude anything from this device.

But I should be able to draw some conclusions for the devices plugging into and out of the C2-7000.

First off according to Moomes specs on the External box it is DVI-D out. Not DVI-A. From his specs "DIGITAL OUTPUT: DVI-D output for driving LCD monitors and other devices for testing purposes (optional)."
This implies Digital out of the Moome Ext box into the C2-7000 DVI in. **Confirmed by Moome, Digital into the C2-7000***

Next, on the Moome Input Cards on the Marquee's I am testing this on, they are HDMI, NOT DVI in. I am not aware of a spec that allows for an analog connection via HDMI?? Therefore I must conclude that the input into the projector is digital which implies that the output via DVI from the C2-7000 is digital. ***Confirmed***

And finally I know for a fact that the projectors are getting 1600 x 1200 @72HZ because of what is being reported by the projectors when you look at the information page. 90.18Khz x 71.92hz is reported at the PJ. So indeed the the TVOne is outputting 1600 x 1200 @72. ***Confirmed****

Therefore I must conclude that unless the Moome External box is really outputting DVI-A (which is not what his spec says) and that the Moome Marquee VIM HDMI cards that have the HDMI connector on them are really accepting analog (his spec says "TWO INPUTS: 100% digital HDMI (female), Component YCrCb analog (3 female RCA connectors)". and "HDMI 1.1/1.2 and HDCP 1.0/1.1 compliant." As far as I know the spec for HDMI is 100% digital and I am not aware of a means to send analog over an HDMI interface?) that the input/output of the C2-7000 in this setup are in the digital domain.

If that is the case, I would also conclude that I can pass 1600 x 1200 @72 out of the DVI-D interface side of the C2-7000 in the digital domain.

This is like MythBusters......lol

Terry

And just to be sure, since I am assuming that Moomes Ext-HD and Vim HDMI are both in the digital domain exclusively on the DVI out of the Ext-HD and the HDMI in on the VIM, I just emailed Moome to ask him.

Terry

Terry I agree with you. The only limitation is that the Tv-one will not accept 1080p60 , 1080p/30 is the highest it can accept. So then it can output 60hz if needed. I tried to explain how the spec sheets are worded , the 1280x1024 is for the PC DVI input not the HDTV DVI input mode which accepts 1080p24/30 HDTV resolutions, this is selected with the menu controls. If you have the menue set to input PC DVI and try t fed it Video DVI it goes all wacky and you have to go into the menu and change it and all is well from what I remember.

The Question is Terry, how does the final image look? To me the TV-one as a VP is a great looking unit.
Athanasios

The Question is Terry, how does the final image look? To me the TV-one as a VP is a great looking unit.
Athanasios

Mind you I am shooting on a wall that is not pure white (I don't have a 12' wide screen here) so I am not getting to see the full impact or presentation of the picture.
From a noise artifacts point of view it looks very good and clean. Scaling is also very good.
The blend zone is very easy to set up and also looks pretty seamless, at least on this wall.

Terry

Terry - I can confirm that the DVI test port on Moome's external box is digital. I am currently using two of these boxes feeding directly into the HDMI inputs of my VP50P and they work flawlessly. (Didn't get them for their analog outputs).

Terry - I can confirm that the DVI test port on Moome's external box is digital. I am currently using two of these boxes feeding directly into the HDMI inputs of my VP50P and they work flawlessly. (Didn't get them for their analog outputs).

Thanks Boilermaker. I suspected as much.
But with so much "mystery" surrounding the C2-7000 and it's digital capabilities, I have to be sure it's DVI-D and not DVI-I (which supports DVI-D and DVI-A).

Terry

From Moome this morning "Dear Terry: the DVI output for EXT-HD is DVI-D, no analog output,"
OK the input into the C2-7000 is digital.

AND

"Dear Terry:
yes, HDMI input accept digital signal only!"
So clearly the output of the C2-7000 is digital.

Therefore my conclusions above are correct that we are digital I/O on the C2-7000

Terry

Ok I just Got an E-mail back from Dan Gibson of Tv-0ne and it looks like we might see some of the things we want for higher input and out put digital, although he has not said this specificlye, it lends me to think it will be included in a future upgrade.

this is the email i sent him:
"Last year I demo'd a C2-7200 and never really got to try it fully with Blending since my second projector died on me before got your units. This bring me to a discussion on the AVS Forum site about the bandwidth and pixel clock specs of your 7000 series units. Here is a link to the discusion between your unit and the Analogway Diventix 8022.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=977793

Your brochure and spec sheets have some confused as to what the maximum digital input resolution is and what the pixel clock speed is as with DVI specs it should be able to handle 165mhz pixel clock. Now we are talking about the digital input and output. Andy Halliday has been testing your units in London and says that the DVI digital input is only able to accept 1280x1024 because they have an older chip set. I would like to find out what the actual maximum input resolution is in the digital domain, and also what can be output from each scaling engine. Also what is the chip/processor that is used for this. It be great if you or someone from Tv-one maybe could join in the discusions on AVSforum as the Guys from Lumagen do in the VP forums. There are many who are looking at your products in the home theater CRT forum but want to go 100% digital to thier projectors now that there are aftermarket hdmi cards and hdcp strippers to take advantage of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's. I plan to get a blend unit this year either the 7000 series or the C2-2250 x2 and knowing the truth with regard to this possible limitation will make our decision more informed.
Also are there any plans to add remot control abilities to the 7000 series like the 2200 series?

Athanasios"

And this was his responce:
Athanasios,
The DVI input and output limitations mentioned in the thread are accurate.
Continue to monitor our website and I believe you will be pleased with new
product developments coming out within the next couple months.

The C2-7000 series will only have RS-232 and IP remote control. The C2-5000
series which preceded it has IR control, but no one used it. So, in
designing the C2-7000 series it was left off to save space. We packed in a
lot of capability into a 1RU frame you know. :)

Thank you for your continued support of our processors. I truly believe we
do offer the most affordable and flexible edge blending hardware video
processors on the market. I appreciate your help in getting the word out.

Dan Gibson | Vice President | TV One
So i guess it does have limitations but he didnt specify if it was limited to the 1280x1024 or if the limitation was the not being able to do the 1080p60 !! But i look forward to new developments in the next few months!

He has told me they were working on improving it for increased blending features last year and said it should be ready in the first quater of 2008 so looks they are right on time!

lets hope they hit the 165 mhz pixel clock for us blend fanatics!!!

Athanasios

PS: And their was talk about a scaled down dedicated blend unit for home theater use with hdcp compliancy by removing all the overlay and text over picture that violate the HDCP rules for altering the original content. This was just a possibility that one of the other contacts I have at Tv-one told me but had to temporarily abandon due to a major contractor needing a specific application from Tv-one and all their resource's we diverted to that project. Maybe this is what DAn Gibson is talking about ! Lets hope it is.

Athanasios,

Dan should read what I wrote above
Clearly I have this unit they sent us as a demo accepting 1080P24 and outputting 1600 x 1200 72hz. This is ALL being done digital in and out via the DVI connectors.
My pixel clock is around 200MHz on this output.

Terry

Ok every one who has questions about the Tv-One blend units here is a new thread started by MadMrH(Andy). He is in london and has been using the T-vone since around the same time a began looking and demoing it but he actually owns a unit(Lucky Bastard!) A lot of what he says about needed bandwidth make sense with regaurd to movie conten only using 800 or 817 actual lines of resolution on bluray and hd dvd, there are a few movies that use 1080 but those are few and far between. And for those you can just set up a smaller aspect and mask the sides of the screen.

here is the link to his Q7A thread on the Tv-One blend units.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=986738


Athanasios

PS: Terry I will quote your findings and send them to him.

I have spoken with TVONE tech support twice and they both agreed on the following:
1. All models will accept 2048X2048 inputs in analog only.
2. Models with digital inputs will accept up to and including 1920X1080P @30Hz.
3. All models will output up to 2048 X 2048 at up to 250Hz in analog form.
4. All models with digital outputs are limited to the same restrictions as the digital input.
5. Yes - The digital output is DVI-I so that it can be used for both analog or digital displays.

YES, I agree with ALL of the above and have tested 1,2,4,5 in full. point 2 I have NOT run all the way up to 2048x2048 @250Hz :eek: .


TERRY - I am trying to keep up with all your posts.....I've answered some in the "TVONE Q&A" thread, I started that as in time this info here will be hidden as the title of the thread is about DVX8022 not TVONE products.
This is not my "Home" forum . Terry Stop typing !!! So I can catch up !!!!

If its OK with you guys I will contue to post in the TVONE thread.

That thread is to help share info, and I will try and keep an eye on it.

ALSO if there are any specific questions then feel free to post them in the Q&A thread.

Im happy to send a bulk of questions to TVONE and test anything that I can for others.

So who was the lucky bastard who won this 170188242319 auction for a TVONE C2-7200 with an offer of $2600, well under the asking price? I recognize the user id but can't recall who it belongs to.

wow! $2600... I would have snapped that up in a second!

Sheeeet! My Ebay search didnt send me an e-mail for that !

Now I'm Pissed!!!!

Athanasios

Same here!!!! How the hell did that slip through. I just did a manual search last night!!!

And right in my own backyard!!!!

Damn!!

Doc

They didnt seperate the word Tv-One like I always do. Now I added TVone to my searches.

Athanasios

Was this directed to me Oliver? (It's Gino, not Andy)

On the 7200 units, the analogs for both input and output do support 2048x2048 as tested by Andy.

The Diventix would be perfect if it supported custom resolutions as the TVOne does, but unfortunately I'm stuck at 1400x1050@72 output to each projector. Not a huge issue since most of my watching is cinemascope and it does a decent job upscaling ~800 lines to 1050 (no real picture loss), but any 1.78 material with 1080 lines of information means downscaling to 1050 lines and I don't like the idea of losing lines :o

Sorry Gino, must have mixed up the two big blenders in this thread :)

I directed this to you indeed. Of course I can only talk about the cards that I used and what TVOne support told me about the input pixel limitation, they said it was 1280 x 1024 for ALL models.

I did not know that the Diventix is limited to 1400 x 1050, is that only with 72 Hz ? Could you do 1920 x 1050 with 48 or 60 Hz ?

Regarding the pixel remapping from 1080 to 1050: Is it possible to have the middle 1050 pixels from those 1080 passed through, cropping the top and bottom 30 pixels ?

I have looked into blending a bit more seriously lately and have considered a solution that would have around 2500 x 1080 total pixels and for 16:9 movies only 1920 x 1080 pixels would be used. For scope movies the 1920 x 81x active pixels would be upscaled to the full 2500 x 1080. Of course the other option would be to still only use the active pixels for a scope image, but then I definitely would want the full 1920 pixels and not only 1400.

I did not know that the Diventix is limited to 1400 x 1050, is that only with 72 Hz ? Could you do 1920 x 1050 with 48 or 60 Hz ?Oliver, 1400x1050 per projector, so with an appropriate overlap you regain the horizontal, so back to 2520x1050 for cinemascope, and 1920x1050 for 16:9. I have stuck with 1400x1050 as it supports up to 75Hz, the next higher resolution is 1600x1200 but this is limited to 60Hz.

Regarding the pixel remapping from 1080 to 1050: Is it possible to have the middle 1050 pixels from those 1080 passed through, cropping the top and bottom 30 pixels ? You could do this with diventix, but IIRC the adjustments are in %'s or on a scale from -255 to 255. With an external VP this can easily be achieved.


I have looked into blending a bit more seriously lately and have considered a solution that would have around 2500 x 1080 total pixels and for 16:9 movies only 1920 x 1080 pixels would be used. For scope movies the 1920 x 81x active pixels would be upscaled to the full 2500 x 1080. Of course the other option would be to still only use the active pixels for a scope image, but then I definitely would want the full 1920 pixels and not only 1400.see above :)

So who was the lucky bastard who won this 170188242319 auction for a TVONE C2-7200 with an offer of $2600, well under the asking price? I recognize the user id but can't recall who it belongs to.

That would be me :D

Saeid,

How long was that listed for?

Congrats!


Doc

Congrats Saeid, what are you blending with?

That would be me :D


And then there were three :D .

Thanks, I had it on my watch list for a couple of days.
I will be blending with BG1209s that has been patiently waiting and collecting dust for about a year now.

You got lucky. I saw that auction a couple days before you bid. I hemmed and hawed as to whether to make an offer or not since I have so many other things I must spend my money on first. Had it gone a day or two more, though, I might have caved.

Oliver, 1400x1050 per projector, so with an appropriate overlap you regain the horizontal, so back to 2520x1050 for cinemascope, and 1920x1050 for 16:9. I have stuck with 1400x1050 as it supports up to 75Hz, the next higher resolution is 1600x1200 but this is limited to 60Hz.
You could do this with diventix, but IIRC the adjustments are in %'s or on a scale from -255 to 255. With an external VP this can easily be achieved.


This sound pretty satisfying, this only leaves the 1080 vs 1050 issue which translates to a less than 3% overlap and that only for movies that are 16:9 instead of 1.85:1. I think you should be able to live with that ;)