I ended up getting this sound meter from fry's since I had a gift certificate. Not sure if it works too well.

http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4415166;jsessionid=Q7UsJ-yoVtEwDbqyrnJ8bg**.node2?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

I calibrated my speakers ok using AVIA to 85db. But when I tried to calibrate my subwoofer level, 85db didnt seem loud enough. The meter showed me 85db, but the test tone didn't seem loud enough. I thought that was normal since I never had a HT system before. Then I went to try some DVDs, and I could hardly hear any bass.

Maybe I'm tripping out because I'm used to excessive bass. But let me know if something seems fishy.

I had my meter set up to dBC and slow.

I have the following 2.1 system.

Onkyo TX-SR304
Polk R50s
Dayton SUB-100

Receiver: Fronts set to small....Freq at 80Hz....sub=-1db
Sub: Freq turned all the way up, gain about halfway

Subs are tricky to calibrate, and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs. But I just did some adjusting of mine, and it seemed to work out pretty well. I was distrustful of my little Sony sub's treatment of mid-bass, so I changed my receiver (Pioneer VSX1700) sub setting from "Yes" to "Plus", to let my fronts (JBL 4310, set "Large") do more of that bass. I got some boominess, so I dialed the sub's cross-over control from 120Hz down to 60Hz. But then I couldn't hear enough bass, so I turned up the sub's volume from 11 o'clock (where I had originally calibrated it) to 12 o'clock.

So, my suggestion is to go ahead and experiment with the sub's controls.

If you desire more bass, turn up the subwoofer volume thingy...

Thanks. I guess since I never had a HT system before, I'm not sure how its supposed to sound like. In my head I was just comparing it to theater sound. I tried popping in some dvds, and I could only hear a small rumble in the sub when I stick my head right next to it. I guess I can't just only rely on the SPL meter.

BTW, whats the best dvd to use to test out my sub?

Thanks. I guess since I never had a HT system before, I'm not sure how its supposed to sound like. In my head I was just comparing it to theater sound. I tried popping in some dvds, and I could only hear a small rumble in the sub when I stick my head right next to it. I guess I can't just only rely on the SPL meter.

BTW, whats the best dvd to use to test out my sub?

The bass level of dvd's will vary wildly. Try using a c.d with plenty of bass.

Your meter is probably like the Radio Shack one - its sensitivity drops considerably in the bass region. With the Radio Shack meter, you need to calibrate the sub 10 dB higher than the other speakers. Without knowing the correction factors for your meter, there's no way to be sure what the real decibel measurement is. Understand that your meter does not have perfectly flat response. It doesn't "hear" the same at all frequencies. So, turn your sub up to where it sounds good to your ears and forget the meter.

You should be hearing plenty of bass (although probably less than you are used to hearing) when calibrated for equal levels. Is the sub even working properly? What sound modes are you using? How are the speakers setup in your receiver? Lot of potential issues here.

With the Radio Shack meter, you need to calibrate the sub 10 dB higher than the other speakers.

That is absolutely and totally wrong. As you say, the RS meter is less sensitive in the low frequencies, meaning that the sub level is actually HIGHER than is indicated, not lower. I don't know where you heard that 10 dB tidbit but it is completely wrong.

That is absolutely and totally wrong. As you say, the RS meter is less sensitive in the low frequencies, meaning that the sub level is actually HIGHER than is indicated, not lower.

Agree. You are generating more base than meter says (on C -weighting). You have to have "flat" for accurate measure (RS meter doesn't have flat mode). Here is possible cause why base seems low.
- you are listening at low volume (as you lower volume, base sensitivity of human ear drops faster than other sounds).
- your subwoofer response is NOT flat. If your sub generates strong of 80Hz and week 50Hz. Since your sub is adjusted on avearage base response. 50Hz will sounds very week.

- you are listening at low volume (as you lower volume, base sensitivity of human ear drops faster than other sounds).True.
- your subwoofer response is NOT flat. If your sub generates strong of 80Hz and week 50Hz. Since your sub is adjusted on avearage base response. 50Hz will sounds very week.True, but that is what slow averaging setting on the meter is for and C weighting is correct. C weighted response curve is accounted for in the mix as the mxing and mastering studios were calibrated in the same way.

It is also a possibility that you are used to, or enjoy accentuated bass and are not used to the sub being set properly. When set properly, a sub should almost never call attention to itself except when there is info in the LFE track of a DVD i.e. FX, explosions etc. At most other times, it should just evenly extend the low end of your main speakers.

True.
True, but that is what slow averaging setting on the meter is for and C weighting is correct. C weighted response curve is accounted for in the mix as the mxing and mastering studios were calibrated in the same way.

It is also a possibility that you are used to, or enjoy accentuated bass and are not used to the sub being set properly. When set properly, a sub should almost never call attention to itself except when there is info in the LFE track of a DVD i.e. FX, explosions etc. At most other times, it should just evenly extend the low end of your main speakers.

I tested it w/ The Matrix at the helicopter explosion scene. I guess I didn't really hear it. Maybe I'm going deaf, but my fronts still seem a lot more louder.

Another problem I was having with AVIA is it kept alternating between Speaker Level and Subwoofer level pretty fast. And with a digital meter, it was kind of difficult to measure. Is there a single tone that I can use to just double check that I used AVIA properly?

I tested it w/ The Matrix at the helicopter explosion scene. I guess I didn't really hear it. Maybe I'm going deaf, but my fronts still seem a lot more louder.

Another problem I was having with AVIA is it kept alternating between Speaker Level and Subwoofer level pretty fast. And with a digital meter, it was kind of difficult to measure. Is there a single tone that I can use to just double check that I used AVIA properly?


Use the test tones in your receiver, and set the subwoofer to be 3 dB above the main channels. Then listen and adjust the subwoofer level (up or down) by ear to suit your taste.

Use the AVE, SLOW, C-scale setting, and not the MAX setting.

Anotehr possibility: it could be that if the OPs meter is not *very* close to where his head is, and OP is hearing a modal effect. That is, his head is in a modal null compared to where the meter is.

It's also possible, as said, he's just used to cranked up bass, rather than an evenly-integrated sub.

Using the AVIA track, the OP could perhaps also set his DVD player to loop just the subwoofer portion, to make measuring easier.

Another problem I was having with AVIA is it kept alternating between Speaker Level and Subwoofer level pretty fast.

You are not using the right test tones! Sounds like you are using LFE check or something...

True, but that is what slow averaging setting on the meter is for and C weighting is correct.

No. It's a tone, not a sweep. The "slow" setting has nothing to do with the potential and common problem that tsyoo brought up. If your sub has an in-room response with a large narrow peak near or at the test tone, you will end up setting an incorrect level (way too low). I had this problem initially when I moved to a new room. After EQ-ing my sub to a flatter result, I had to raise the sub level by SEVERAL dB. The end result is that the upper and lower bass were much stronger than before.

Also, how did the OP measure the speaker levels (meter position and aiming)?

I was pretty sure I was in the right section. I was in the subwoofer section. And it would alternate between a sub tone and a speaker tone.

You are not using the right test tones! Sounds like you are using LFE check or something...



No. It's a tone, not a sweep. The "slow" setting has nothing to do with the potential and common problem that tsyoo brought up. If your sub has an in-room response with a large narrow peak near or at the test tone, you will end up setting an incorrect level (way too low). I had this problem initially when I moved to a new room. After EQ-ing my sub to a flatter result, I had to raise the sub level by SEVERAL dB. The end result is that the upper and lower bass were much stronger than before.

Also, how did the OP measure the speaker levels (meter position and aiming)?

That is absolutely and totally wrong. As you say, the RS meter is less sensitive in the low frequencies, meaning that the sub level is actually HIGHER than is indicated, not lower. I don't know where you heard that 10 dB tidbit but it is completely wrong.

Yes, I worded it incorrectly. You said in a later post: "After EQ-ing my sub to a flatter result, I had to raise the sub level by SEVERAL dB." This is exactly what I meant.

And take your attitude and stick it.

Yes, I worded it incorrectly. You said in a later post: "After EQ-ing my sub to a flatter result, I had to raise the sub level by SEVERAL dB." This is exactly what I meant.

And take your attitude and stick it.

My comment about post-EQ had nothing to do with your comments...

And what attitude was that? I guess right back at you.

I was pretty sure I was in the right section. I was in the subwoofer section. And it would alternate between a sub tone and a speaker tone.

Not the right section, it's not under subwoofer, it is under the main or reference tones section (forget what it's called).

Not the right section, it's not under subwoofer, it is under the main or reference tones section (forget what it's called).

Oh ok. I'll take a look again when I get home. Does anyone else know where that tone might be?

You should be hearing plenty of bass (although probably less than you are used to hearing) when calibrated for equal levels. Is the sub even working properly? What sound modes are you using? How are the speakers setup in your receiver? Lot of potential issues here.



That is absolutely and totally wrong. As you say, the RS meter is less sensitive in the low frequencies, meaning that the sub level is actually HIGHER than is indicated, not lower. I don't know where you heard that 10 dB tidbit but it is completely wrong.

I just re-read what you wrote here. How can I tell if my sub is working properly? I currently use a 2.1 setup so I just use the Stereo Sound Mode.

Plus I'm crouching behind my sofa and pointing the meter straight up in the position where I would normall sit.

Another thing. Not sure if I'm doing somethign wrong but when I play w/ the phase switch, I don't see any noticible difference in the meter.

Another problem I was having with AVIA is it kept alternating between Speaker Level and Subwoofer level pretty fast. And with a digital meter, it was kind of difficult to measure. Is there a single tone that I can use to just double check that I used AVIA properly?You are not using the right test tones! Sounds like you are using LFE check or something...
I was pretty sure I was in the right section. I was in the subwoofer section. And it would alternate between a sub tone and a speaker tone.Not the right section, it's not under subwoofer, it is under the main or reference tones section (forget what it's called).
IIRC, that is how the AVIA subwoofer calibration tones perform. They are not pure LFE. The tone will switch back and forth between the speaker and the subwoofer and the idea is to get the meter to remain stable, at the same reading, as the tone moves back and forth between the speaker and the sub. There are subwoofer calibration tones for each speaker/sub combo. If the sub is along the same wall as the fronts and center, it is a good idea to use each of the the FL/sub, FR/sub, and center/sub tones to calibrate, note the level necessary to calibrate the sub with each speaker/sub pair, then use an average level. If the sub is in the rear, it is useful to use the surround/sub tones to calibrate.

I currently use a 2.1 setup so I just use the Stereo Sound Mode.
The AVIA disc is for calibrating DD. Even though you have a 2-channel setup, you can still use AVIA to calibrate your subwoofer. But you need to be in DD mode. Set your receiver up as having no surrounds and no center speaker. Then make certain you turn off any "virtual surround" modes such as what you were asking about in another thread. Then, set the receiver to DD5.1. Using the AVIA subwoofer calibration tones, you should be able to calibrate the sub relative to each front speaker. The front speakers in a 2-channel setup usually need not be calibrated, however there can certainly be instances where the detected SPL from each front speaker is not identical, so if you want to be "anal" about it, you can calibrate your front speakers to one another. Personally, I prefer to simply leave the front speaker output levels be with a 2.0/2.1 setup.

Another thing. Not sure if I'm doing somethign wrong but when I play w/ the phase switch, I don't see any noticible difference in the meter.
You won't always see a large SPL difference when switching the phase. But with a 2.1 setup you shouldn't even be worrying about phase between your front speakers. If your front speakers are wired properly, they should be in phase. You may need to adjust the subwoofer's phase. What sort of phase control does your subwoofer have? Is it simply a switch between 0° and 180°, or is it a continuously variable knob?

You won't always see a large SPL difference when switching the phase. But with a 2.1 setup you shouldn't even be worrying about phase between your front speakers. If your front speakers are wired properly, they should be in phase. You may need to adjust the subwoofer's phase. What sort of phase control does your subwoofer have? Is it simply a switch between 0° and 180°, or is it a continuously variable knob?

I was just worried about the subwoofer phase. It's just a switch between 0 and 180 deg.

I'll also take a look if i can set my receiver to DD5.1 after turning off the center and surround speakers. I have the onkyo-304

I'll also take a look if i can set my receiver to DD5.1 after turning off the center and surround speakers. I have the onkyo-304
You should be able to. It will reroute the surround channel and center channel info properly to the front channels (and subwoofer when the front speakers are set to SMALL). Provided you use the correct tones for the fornt speakers and subwoofer, you should be able to use AVIA to calibrate. If you try to ue the center channel or surround channel calibration tones, you'll have issues, so don't do that. Your receiver will reroute the center and surround channel info at the proper levels for you.

You should use the DD/DTS mode when watching (listening to) movies, btw, and you may even want to use this mode for 2-channel music, too, as it will also properly reproduce 2-channel sources as 2.1 when you have your speakers set to SMALL.

I was thinking. will this provide accurate results? ill first play a 80hz sine wave in stereo with the sub turned off and calibrate to 75db. then ill turn on the sub and disconnect the speaker and play the same 80hz tone and calibrate the sub to 75hz.

Avia has the proper tones to use....calibrating using a pure sine wave is a very bad idea. There are good reasons why the test tones cover a range of frequencies.

Avia has the proper tones to use....calibrating using a pure sine wave is a very bad idea. There are good reasons why the test tones cover a range of frequencies.

thanks. btw what part of california are you from?

I was thinking. will this provide accurate results? ill first play a 80hz sine wave in stereo with the sub turned off and calibrate to 75db. then ill turn on the sub and disconnect the speaker and play the same 80hz tone and calibrate the sub to 75hz.
No, that is not how you calibrate! :rolleyes:

Firstly, you don't use pure tones to calibrate. Secondly, even if you did, that would most definitely NOT be the way to calibrate your setup using a pure tone.

thanks. btw what part of california are you from?

San Francisco East Bay...

I was thinking. will this provide accurate results? ill first play a 80hz sine wave in stereo with the sub turned off and calibrate to 75db. then ill turn on the sub and disconnect the speaker and play the same 80hz tone and calibrate the sub to 75hz. If you were outdoors, that should give you a perfect calibration. The next step would be to play both the speaker and the sub and adjust the distance/phase controls for max output at 80 Hz. The thing is, a lot of rooms have problems, peaks and nulls, around 80 Hz so adjusting with a single frequency is a bad idea.

A better way to go is to use your same method but do a frequency sweep with Room EQ Wizard, using your SPL meter as a mic (does it have an RCA output?). You can look at the main and the sub separately for overall level and to EQ each and then look at how well they blend to adjust distance/phase.

Even outdoors, it is still a poor calibration using a sine wave! Much better to use band-limited pink noise. And that is not even getting into the very poor choice of using an 80Hz tone to set the level of (high-passed) main speakers.

With a 'perfect' 80 Hz crossover, both the main and the sub will be down 6dB at 80 Hz and read the same when you have your levels right. But it's a theoretical exercise, not practical in a room. Pink noise and an SPL meter have their own problems as well. You may be setting your overall level too low if you have a huge peak that the SPL meter is picking up. Much better to run a sweep and see what's really going on. REW is free and everyone who is serious about calibration should learn to use it. SPL meters are kids' stuff. ;)

A better way to go is to use your same method but do a frequency sweep with Room EQ Wizard, using your SPL meter as a mic (does it have an RCA output?). You can look at the main and the sub separately for overall level and to EQ each and then look at how well they blend to adjust distance/phase.
He has AVIA. The best way for this fellow to calibrate would be to use AVIA as intended. :rolleyes:


If you were outdoors, that should give you a perfect calibration.

With a 'perfect' 80 Hz crossover...............
It's not perfect, though. It's usually assymmetric and even if it is symmetric, it is usually not centered on the frequency that the receiver's crossover is actually "set"; i.e 80Hz in this case.


.....................and everyone who is serious about calibration should learn to use it. SPL meters are kids' stuff.
My god, man, this poster wants (no, he NEEDS) to use AVIA and his SPL meter to calibrate his setup. Can you not tell from his posts that he isn't really looking to do this professionally? :rolleyes:

Sorry (not really) if I offended you or veered off what you perceive the topic to be, mister rolleyes! ;)

I just thought you guys jumped kinda hard on the OP for his single tone idea, without explaining why, when it actually does have some merit. Explanations are a good thing. I'll be moving along now, nothing to see here. ;)

For me it all depended on the source for calibration. If I use internal test tones on my receiver my sub reads 6db lower than the mains, if I used the HD DVE my sub measures 3-4db hot and if I use Avia the sub is 2-3db lower than the mains.

I settled on using REQ wizard and the RS meter to see what the sub region looks like compared to the upper bass region, as well as listen to CDs to see what "sounds right".

You throw in all of people's preferences along with the differences I found and it is no wonder all threads like this give recommended sub levels from -10 to +10 db over the mains.

Unless you have TruRTA or something similar I don't think you'll ever know what is "right".

For me it all depended on the source for calibration. If I use internal test tones on my receiver my sub reads 6db lower than the mains, if I used the HD DVE my sub measures 3-4db hot and if I use Avia the sub is 2-3db lower than the mains.
:confused:

What's your "gold standard", here?

:confused:

What's your "gold standard", here?

There isn't one, that's the problem. Using HD DVE I set mains to 75db and sub to 78-79db. I then switch to receiver tones, adjust the volume until the mains again read 75db....and the sub reads 69db. Put in Avia and do the same, mains at 75db, sub is now around 72. So yes I'm adjusting the master volume but only to keep the mains at 75db, but the relative difference between the mains and the sub varies quite a bit when you'd think it would be constant. Granted I don't have a perfectly flat sub response but I do use BFD so it is pretty good. I have a null around 35hz, otherwise +/-3db throughout the rest of the sub region.

Put in Avia and do the same, mains at 75db, sub is now around 72.
A calibration with AVIA to 75dB (or 85dB) and sub at ~72dB (or ~82dB) is correct as the meter is a bit less accurate at the lower frequency of the sub tones. Some people prefer to calibrate the sub to the identical 75dB (or 85dB) which will make it a few dBs "hot".

What make Avia more correct than HD DVD or my receiver test tones?

What make Avia more correct than HD DVD or my receiver test tones? Exactly. There have been a lot of threads about the problems with the various test disks. Probably something about the levels they are recorded at, the way they band limit the test signals, and the way the C-weighting on the SPL meters works. Running a sweep (preferably with a calibrated mic but an SPL meter will do) tells you what's going on. The rest is just a guess. Primetimeguy got a good looking curve with a sweep but, keeping those same settings, the test disks and SPL meter got it wrong. 'Nuff said. ;)

What make Avia more correct than HD DVD or my receiver test tones?There is nothing that makes the calibration "more correct", but AVIA is generally considered to be the better calibration tool in terms of a correct starting "standard". With AVIA, when the speakers are set to SMALL, since the subwoofer calibration tones are not LFE and the calibration tones move back and forth between the chosen speaker and subwoofer "pair", this allows one to adjust each individual speaker/sub combo and take an average if necessary. For example, if the sub is located along the front wall, the sub can be calibrated with the FL/sub tone, the FR/sub tone, and the center/sub tone, and an average an be taken. Because of the way the tone moves back and forth between the speaker and sub, the speaker's and the sub's interactions with one another as well as their interactions with the room are taken into account.

The reason I said a calibration of 75dB mains and ~72dB for the sub was "correct" with AVIA is because those are the exact numbers you would calibrate to when using AVIA and I (as well as MANY others) consider AVIA to be the better calibration tool; "more correct" if you will allow me to say that. I asked you what your "gold standard" was because if there is none, then what are you comparing each of the different methods to? To simply say they give you different values is meaningless. Calibrate with AVIA to 75db/72db. Call that your "gold standard". Then, without changing any channel level trims and only using the master volume if necessary, check the results the other methods give you. Then you can compare those other methods to the results obtained with AVIA. OR, choose another method as your "gold standard". And compare each of the other methods to THAT method. In any case, either way, you have to pick one method as the "gold standard" to which you are comparing the other methods.

Regarding the receiver's test tones, there are arguments both in favor of using them, and against using them. The commonly held view is that a calibration DVD should be used as this will calibrate the entire playback pathway from your player through the receiver and on to the speakers and sub.

That you see differences between the different methods can obviously be due to MANY factors. First of all, what are the relative levels of the speaker tones to the subwoofer tones within any one method? If the relative levels of the tones are different, then obviously the calibration is altered right "out of the gate" and you'll get different results with one method versus another method. There ARE definitely known differences in the relative levels between the speaker and subwoofer tones used in the different methods. It was very well-known that the first version of DVE had incorrect subwoofer calibration tone levels. The AVIA tones are generally considered to be the "most correct" relative to one another and also bettere to use because of the way the AVIA speaker/subwoofer calibration tones work as I described above.

Another thing that affects the calibration is the exact frequency of the mixed pink noise tone that is used, how your subwoofer reproduces that mixed tone, and the multitude of acoustic interactions between both the speakers and particularly the sub with the room. Everyone's subwoofer will play the mixed tones back differently because of the differences in the physical characteristics of subs from one manufacturer and model to the next as well as the different interactions of the sub with the room in its particular location at any one user's home/HT.

In the end, no matter what calibration method is used, most people still adjust their subwoofer's level to taste.


Using a sweep is a great way to flatten your room's response, but it is important to understand the difference between adjusting the sub's level relative to the speakers using mixed pink noise versus using a pure tone sweep to flatten peaks (and dips). A +5dB peak at 40Hz MAY (or may not) affect a sub's calibration level relative to the speakers when using mixed pink noise. But exactly how that peak affects (or doesn't affect) the calibration of the sub's level relative to the speakers is something that is difficult to define or infer. As I said, every calibration method's tones are different in character. Everyone's subwoofer (unless they're identical) is completely different, physically. And everyone's subwoofer interacts with the room at the particular location in their room differently.

Ok guys, I'm gonna throw a way non-technical way of doing this. Pop in a real bass tester into your CD/DVD player or whatever you play for music. Play a 200Hz to 20Hz sine sweep Adjust the subwoofer volume, crossover, and distance until the bass is as flat and seamless as you can get it. Then pop in a music CD to test if the bass sounds natural. If it does, then pop in the movie "The Incredibles". Some receivers have a LFE effect volume adjust or just simply a separate subwoofer level adjust for digital formats. Either one you have, it doesn't matter. I use The Incredibles because if your subwoofer is set too loud, the bass will over power the rest of the system. On the flip side, if you can't hear enough bass on this movie, your subwoofer is way too soft. Adjust the sub volume on the receiver up or down until it sounds natural. After that, all your movies will sound right. By the way the Matrix helicopter scene is not a good test since it is not exceptionally bassy to begin with. No this is not the most scientific way to do things, but since this home theater thing is not an exact science because all rooms, speakers, amps, DVD players are different in each setup you can't have an exact formula for calibration. Yeah, this depends more on your ears, but in the end isn't it your ears the thing you are trying to please?

Ok guys, I'm gonna throw a way non-technical way of doing this. Pop in a real bass tester into your CD/DVD player or whatever you play for music. Play a 200Hz to 20Hz sine sweep Adjust the subwoofer volume, crossover, and distance until the bass is as flat and seamless as you can get it. Then pop in a music CD to test if the bass sounds natural. If it does, then pop in the movie "The Incredibles". Some receivers have a LFE effect volume adjust or just simply a separate subwoofer level adjust for digital formats. Either one you have, it doesn't matter. I use The Incredibles because if your subwoofer is set too loud, the bass will over power the rest of the system. On the flip side, if you can't hear enough bass on this movie, your subwoofer is way too soft. Adjust the sub volume on the receiver up or down until it sounds natural. After that, all your movies will sound right. By the way the Matrix helicopter scene is not a good test since it is not exceptionally bassy to begin with. No this is not the most scientific way to do things, but since this home theater thing is not an exact science because all rooms, speakers, amps, DVD players are different in each setup you can't have an exact formula for calibration. Yeah, this depends more on your ears, but in the end isn't it your ears the thing you are trying to please?

Thanks for the tip. I'll try your way and probably just leave it alone. My financee is complaining about the sub being too loud. I may be just deaf. :rolleyes: I downloaded the HT demo disc 2. The Finding Nemo and Jurassic Park scene was pretty good. I could really hear the bass. Some of the other ones weren't as good.

Maybe the Dayton Sub-100 doesn't hit hard on a lot of frequencies. It's frequency response is 30Hz - 180Hz.

Using AVIA, I should have the gain calibrated at 1'oclock and have the onkyo sub level at -3dB. Right now I bumped it up a little bit to -1dB. If I don't hear anymore differences with that sweep you recommended, I'm just going to keep these current settings. I just wanted to make sure everything was ok before I threw the box away.

Thanks again guys for your advice/help.