I picked up 3:10 to Yuma yesterday despite not really liking it at the theaters. Why would I pick up a movie I didn't care for???? I was bored and needed a new movie and was curious about 7.1 discrete PCM sound.
I was not dissappointed....

I've had conversations here in the past with Filmmixer regarding 7.1. He felt there wouldn't be much benefit to it and that adding Dolby IIx to anything would fill in the back enough.... I agreed. I always felt the rears were nice to have but not needed. It was always nice to fill in the hole and for cheap scares of a noise behind you.

Im here to say I was wrong!
After only minutes of listening to this track it opened up a whole new world to me. The back of my room just seemed to open up. Sound didn't just come from the back, but the back left corner, than the back right corner. Even the side surrounds blended better with my system. I was tricked several times that something was behind me. I really felt I was on a carnival ride and was taken out of the movie several times and just said WOW! I felt totally immersed in true audio nirvana.

I know there are a few other 7.1, but I think they are all DTS masters(which I can't get yet). If Im missing any, please tell.

Filmmixer, if you haven't heard this yet(unless you mixed it!:D), please do yourself a favor and do. I think you might reconsider your stance. I know I did! Whats the word about this in your business???? Is this something more and more studios are going to push? Have you mixed anything in 7.1 yet or do you strictly do theater releases?
Thanks!

To anyone with a 7.1 setup.... pick this one up today!

Oh, and I enjoyed the movie much better on a second viewing...

***Mods, please dont throw this in the 3:10 to Yuma thread, as this is more about the future of 7.1 and not a movie review***

Agree about 7.1 pcm. Have you watched and listened to War with Jet Li? That 7.1 pcm track is the best I've heard in terms of a soundtrack yet. Very impressed.

Agree about 7.1 pcm. Have you watched and listened to War with Jet Li? That 7.1 pcm track is the best I've heard in terms of a soundtrack yet. Very impressed.

Didn'tknow about that... thanks!

I totally agree, during the gun battles I heard bullets flying through every direction, I actually though I was right in the middle of them.

if only i had a good place to mount the extra 2 speakers...

question, for those with 5.1 setup, will we be missing some audio from the 7.1 track? or will our receivers downmix to 5.1?

I really felt I was on a carnival ride and was taken out of the movie several times and just said WOW!You're impressed with the soundtrack because it "out of the movie several times"? Wow indeed.

Sanjay

In think I'm 'room shape challenged' with regard to adding 2 additional speakers. No way but to have my set up on the short side of a rectangular shaped room, doors on either end. I don't imagine 2 more speakers in the ceiling, directly above our heads, would help? Unorthodox, I think?

You're impressed with the soundtrack because it "out of the movie several times"? Wow indeed.

Sanjay

I new someone would call me out on that.:rolleyes:

It did take me out of the movie, but Im sure it had more to do with me already seeing it and intentionally listening to the the mix.

I know how you love your audio Sanjay... have you listened to it yet?

I agree, the 7.1 PCM track on Yuma is very immersive. Felt like I was inside the iron stagecoach during the battle:D Shots and ricochets from every direction.
I cannot get the DTS HD MA 7.1 tracks either(PS3) so this was my first experience with discrete 7.1, not dissapointed!

I new someone would call me out on that.Just personal preference: my favourite soundtracks are the ones I'm never aware of when watching the movie. have you listened to it yet?Yes, and just for curiosity compared the 7.1 track on BD to the 5.1 track on DVD. FilmMixer was correct: the difference between 7.1 discrete and 5.1+PLIIx isn't very big, with rear-vs-side imaging remaining fairly consistent.

Sanjay

Where do u guys have your 2 speaker in the back positioned. High up, or at ear level?

I picked up 3:10 to Yuma yesterday despite not really liking it at the theaters. Why would I pick up a movie I didn't care for???? I was bored and needed a new movie and was curious about 7.1 discrete PCM sound.
I was not dissappointed....

I've had conversations here in the past with Filmmixer regarding 7.1. He felt there wouldn't be much benefit to it and that adding Dolby IIx to anything would fill in the back enough.... I agreed. I always felt the rears were nice to have but not needed. It was always nice to fill in the hole and for cheap scares of a noise behind you.

Im here to say I was wrong!
After only minutes of listening to this track it opened up a whole new world to me. The back of my room just seemed to open up. Sound didn't just come from the back, but the back left corner, than the back right corner. Even the side surrounds blended better with my system. I was tricked several times that something was behind me. I really felt I was on a carnival ride and was taken out of the movie several times and just said WOW! I felt totally immersed in true audio nirvana.

I know there are a few other 7.1, but I think they are all DTS masters(which I can't get yet). If Im missing any, please tell.

Filmmixer, if you haven't heard this yet(unless you mixed it!:D), please do yourself a favor and do. I think you might reconsider your stance. I know I did! Whats the word about this in your business???? Is this something more and more studios are going to push? Have you mixed anything in 7.1 yet or do you strictly do theater releases?
Thanks!

To anyone with a 7.1 setup.... pick this one up today!

Oh, and I enjoyed the movie much better on a second viewing...

***Mods, please dont throw this in the 3:10 to Yuma thread, as this is more about the future of 7.1 and not a movie review***

I did watch this the other night and replay the gun fight again yesterday it is really awesome, did anyone here heard barking dog somewhere in the back sorround somehow I could here and don't see any dog in the movie or maybe I missed it. But anyhow it was amazing. Oh I almost forgot my mother in law docked when she heard the shooting from the back sorround....:D

Where do u guys have your 2 speaker in the back positioned. High up, or at ear level?

This is a good question, I have mine high up but always wonder what if I put it ear level, I might just lower to ear level I think it would be better.

Maybe you guys can help me. I currently have a 7.1 speaker system (actually 9.1 but 2 are currently not hooked up) and would like to make use of the HD soundtracks from my new PS3 player. I currently have an Outlaw 950 pre/pro that has served me well for the last 5 years or so but it only has analog input capability when it comes to HD audio (XA2 @ 5.1). So I need either an AVR (used as a pre/pro) or a pre/pro that won't break the bank that can handle the HD audio (HDMI). Any suggestions?

I was looking at the midrange Yamahas, HKs and Onkyos but they don't seem as future proof as I would like. I also looked at Emotiva but they have outboard HDMI for video only from what I can see. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There is always a lot of info to wade through on here to get the answers you need.

Maybe you guys can help me. I currently have a 7.1 speaker system (actually 9.1 but 2 are currently not hooked up) and would like to make use of the HD soundtracks from my new PS3 player. I currently have an Outlaw 950 pre/pro that has served me well for the last 5 years or so but it only has analog input capability when it comes to HD audio (XA2 @ 5.1). So I need either an AVR (used as a pre/pro) or a pre/pro that won't break the bank that can handle the HD audio (HDMI). Any suggestions?

I was looking at the midrange Yamahas, HKs and Onkyos but they don't seem as future proof as I would like. I also looked at Emotiva but they have outboard HDMI for video only from what I can see. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There is always a lot of info to wade through on here to get the answers you need.

I have a Denon 2308 , and I love it. The only thing missing is TrueHD and DTS Master, but hopefully one day the PS3 will be able to process it.

Where do u guys have your 2 speaker in the back positioned. High up, or at ear level?Mine are a couple of feet above ear level, roughly same height as my sides. The back wall is 7 feet behind me and the rear speakers are spread about 8 feet apart (makes it easier to hear left-vs-right stereo separation behind me).

Sanjay

Maybe you guys can help me. I currently have a 7.1 speaker system (actually 9.1 but 2 are currently not hooked up) and would like to make use of the HD soundtracks from my new PS3 player. I currently have an Outlaw 950 pre/pro that has served me well for the last 5 years or so but it only has analog input capability when it comes to HD audio (XA2 @ 5.1). So I need either an AVR (used as a pre/pro) or a pre/pro that won't break the bank that can handle the HD audio (HDMI). Any suggestions?

I was looking at the midrange Yamahas, HKs and Onkyos but they don't seem as future proof as I would like. I also looked at Emotiva but they have outboard HDMI for video only from what I can see. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There is always a lot of info to wade through on here to get the answers you need.

I have Onkyo 705 and I love it, check out Onkyo 805 or 905, but for me 705 is good enough, the hdmi input/output is 3/1 and my room is only 13ft wide x 20ft long and yes 7.1 analog so the power of 705 is more than enough I think. But goodluck for shopping.:D

I totally agree with all of you. While I was playing this movie, I kept going to the window to see what all the racket was in the alley only to find it was my rear channels! This along with War has to be among the best 7.1 tracks I have heard to date.

I picked up 3:10 to Yuma yesterday despite not really liking it at the theaters. Why would I pick up a movie I didn't care for???? I was bored and needed a new movie and was curious about 7.1 discrete PCM sound.
I was not dissappointed....

I've had conversations here in the past with Filmmixer regarding 7.1. He felt there wouldn't be much benefit to it and that adding Dolby IIx to anything would fill in the back enough.... I agreed. I always felt the rears were nice to have but not needed. It was always nice to fill in the hole and for cheap scares of a noise behind you.

Im here to say I was wrong!
After only minutes of listening to this track it opened up a whole new world to me. The back of my room just seemed to open up. Sound didn't just come from the back, but the back left corner, than the back right corner. Even the side surrounds blended better with my system. I was tricked several times that something was behind me. I really felt I was on a carnival ride and was taken out of the movie several times and just said WOW! I felt totally immersed in true audio nirvana.

I know there are a few other 7.1, but I think they are all DTS masters(which I can't get yet). If Im missing any, please tell.

Filmmixer, if you haven't heard this yet(unless you mixed it!:D), please do yourself a favor and do. I think you might reconsider your stance. I know I did! Whats the word about this in your business???? Is this something more and more studios are going to push? Have you mixed anything in 7.1 yet or do you strictly do theater releases?
Thanks!

To anyone with a 7.1 setup.... pick this one up today!

Oh, and I enjoyed the movie much better on a second viewing...

***Mods, please dont throw this in the 3:10 to Yuma thread, as this is more about the future of 7.1 and not a movie review***

If 3:10 to Yuma sounds as good as War did on my system then I most definitely will pick this BD up!

I usually watch movies with 5.1+PLIIx on to take advantage of my 2 extra speakers and although it sounds great, pure 7.1 PCM sounded much better. I can easily tell the difference.

For those who do not have a back wall for two extra speakers see if your speaker's manufacture has anything like this: http://www.focal.tm.fr/catalogue-docs/EN/4/img/14.jpg

2 direct speakers with two speaker wire inputs on 1 speaker. I am able to enjoy 7.1 sound without having to have a back wall!

If 3:10 to Yuma sounds as good as War did on my system then I most definitely will pick this BD up!

I usually watch movies with 5.1+PLIIx on to take advantage of my 2 extra speakers and although it sounds great, pure 7.1 PCM sounded much better. I can easily tell the difference.

For those who do not have a back wall for two extra speakers see if your speaker's manufacture has anything like this: http://www.focal.tm.fr/catalogue-docs/EN/4/img/14.jpg

2 direct speakers with two speaker wire inputs on 1 speaker. I am able to enjoy 7.1 sound without having to have a back wall!

Those focals surely look yummy :p

I have dipoles (PSB platinum S2's)
http://www.psbspeakers.com/./Images/Speakers/Platinum/S2.jpg
in the rear mouted high approx. 3 ft behind my main seating. How should I configure them to be able to hear 7.1??

The thing that worries me is that the speakers are at 90 deg to each other and since I have them mounted behind on the walls - one of the face points at my listening area and the other is at 145 degrees pointing towards my kitchen. What should be the optimal angle these kind of speakers need to be mounted at?

I have a 14AWG Canare Quad cable running to them with a 5 channel amp attached to power the rear's and the center. So no issues as far as running wires or needing amplification.

Appreciate any feedback!

I consider featuring of excellent Lossless tracks as the biggest boon for Blu-ray format.
Underworld, DAT, Pearl Harbor, Air Force One etc = Holy Grail of Sound.

Yes, and just for curiosity compared the 7.1 track on BD to the 5.1 track on DVD. FilmMixer was correct: the difference between 7.1 discrete and 5.1+PLIIx isn't very big, with rear-vs-side imaging remaining fairly consistent.

Sanjay

Fair enough. Any way I can downmix PCM to 5.1 and than add IIx?
I would like to try this myself. I suppose I could just listen to the the Dolby track, but I would want to be fair.
If IIx sounds just as good, than these are some of the best sound mixers in the buisness.


***Update***
By telling my Panny BD10 that I didn't have rear speakers, I managed to input 5.1 to my receiver(strange, I thought that it would only have an affect on analog... not HDMI) and then applied IIX.
I stand by my original post. Although IIx does do a superb job, it doesnt come close to the accuracy and detail that 7.1 discrete does.

For those of you only using 5.1, as far as I can tell, the Panny doesnt "throw away" any audio. It is simply sent to the side surrounds.

Those focals surely look yummy :p

I have dipoles (PSB platinum S2's)
http://www.psbspeakers.com/./Images/Speakers/Platinum/S2.jpg
in the rear mouted high approx. 3 ft behind my main seating. How should I configure them to be able to hear 7.1??

The thing that worries me is that the speakers are at 90 deg to each other and since I have them mounted behind on the walls - one of the face points at my listening area and the other is at 145 degrees pointing towards my kitchen. What should be the optimal angle these kind of speakers need to be mounted at?

I have a 14AWG Canare Quad cable running to them with a 5 channel amp attached to power the rear's and the center. So no issues as far as running wires or needing amplification.

Appreciate any feedback!

Those speakers are really meant to be at the sides of you.

If 3:10 to Yuma sounds as good as War did on my system then I most definitely will pick this BD up!

I usually watch movies with 5.1+PLIIx on to take advantage of my 2 extra speakers and although it sounds great, pure 7.1 PCM sounded much better. I can easily tell the difference.

For those who do not have a back wall for two extra speakers see if your speaker's manufacture has anything like this: http://www.focal.tm.fr/catalogue-docs/EN/4/img/14.jpg

2 direct speakers with two speaker wire inputs on 1 speaker. I am able to enjoy 7.1 sound without having to have a back wall!

I dont think you will be dissapointed. I keep hearing how good War is suppose to sound, but heard it is a real awful movie....yes??? no???

In think I'm 'room shape challenged' with regard to adding 2 additional speakers. No way but to have my set up on the short side of a rectangular shaped room, doors on either end. I don't imagine 2 more speakers in the ceiling, directly above our heads, would help? Unorthodox, I think?

I'm in the same boat here, asking the same question:confused:

I'm in the same boat here, asking the same question:confused:

Theres plenty of tricks you can try. In the ceiling, behind the couch, facing away from you, or even just 1 speaker (6.1). I recommend trying these options before buying.
Sometimes it will do more harm than good though and its better off to just stick with 5.1.

A proper 5.1 setup will be better than an inaccurate 7.1 setup any day!

I think War is a pretty good movie. Bought it on a lark and to me its a keeper. The 7.1 is awesome. I have no place to really keep the extra two speakers on a permanent basis, so I bought a couple stands that telescope up and down, put them where I want them, speakers on top and then pull out the speaker wire and attach. I know thats hillbilly but only get to watch movies on Mondays and sometimes a couple hrs on Sunday. When I'm done I put the stands away and the wire goes back under the tv stand out of sight.

I think War is a pretty good movie. Bought it on a lark and to me its a keeper. The 7.1 is awesome. I have no place to really keep the extra two speakers on a permanent basis, so I bought a couple stands that telescope up and down, put them where I want them, speakers on top and then pull out the speaker wire and attach. I know thats hillbilly but only get to watch movies on Mondays and sometimes a couple hrs on Sunday. When I'm done I put the stands away and the wire goes back under the tv stand out of sight.

Good idea!

Theres plenty of tricks you can try. In the ceiling, behind the couch, facing away from you, or even just 1 speaker (6.1). I recommend trying these options before buying.
Sometimes it will do more harm than good though and its better off to just stick with 5.1.

A proper 5.1 setup will be better than an inaccurate 7.1 setup any day!

Yeah, but will you gain anything from the speaker by placing it in the ceiling sbout directly above the listening position?

Yeah, but will you gain anything from the speaker by placing it in the ceiling sbout directly above the listening position?

I doubt it.

Im here to say I was wrong!
After only minutes of listening to this track it opened up a whole new world to me. The back of my room just seemed to open up. Sound didn't just come from the back, but the back left corner, than the back right corner.
5.1 has left and right 'backs'. So if it was mixed that way you should be able to hear stuff from the left back corner and right back corner with 5.1 as well if your system is properly set up.

I dont think you will be dissapointed. I keep hearing how good War is suppose to sound, but heard it is a real awful movie....yes??? no???

I really liked War; I passed on it when it was in the theater but a friend of mine who I trust recommended that I see it. I picked it up on BD without knowing it had 7.1 so I was surprised when I saw the option.

The story served its purpose and I loved how it all played out at the end. Some of the gun executions were brutally sweet. The audio really pulled everything together from the title screen to the ending.

War is not everyone's cup of tea but I truly enjoyed it; I think it was a better movie then something like Shoot'em Up. As for 3:10 to Yuma, I will be picking it up on my lunch break today!

I notice "Shoot 'em up" has 7.1 DTS Master Audio.

How does this soundtrack compare to "3:10 to Yuma" and "war"?

Any good?

When one is on the fence with content, best thing to do is to rent. No one can know if you would like a movie or not.

As far as 3:10 To Yuma, don't expect non stop action with shooting and the like. This is a drama. The action sequences no doubting that for the audio they are very good but they are few and far between!

any one want to comment on the 7.1 mixes for 'Pan's Labyrinth', 'Oldboy' and 'Hairspray' ??

any one want to comment on the 7.1 mixes for 'Pan's Labyrinth', 'Oldboy' and 'Hairspray' ??

I watched Hairspray. Being a musical, the focus is more on the music, then discrete surround effects.

So I'm not sure how much this track benefited from 7.1 as opposed to a 5.1 track. Its not like I was hearing cymbals in the rears, bass guitar in the sides and lead guitar and drums up front.

That being said -- everything was crystal clear and powerful.

What no love for "Waiting"? :D It is 7.1 PCM but you wouldn't think it was even "Stereo" . What lame brain thought to release this as 7.1, I have no idea.

Looks like Disney's first foye' into 7.1 is this years Platinum release of Sleeping Beauty;
Seems like an odd choice; but I'll reserve final judgement... Wouldn't want to discourage the effort I guess...

ken

What lame brain thought to release this as 7.1, I have no idea.It's called specification marketing and, well, it often works... at least for Lionsgate. How about Showtime's Weeds, in spectacular 7.1? :) Just admit it. Just seeing "7.1" makes it sound better, doesn't it? Almost as good as watching a film with the bitrate meter on. :)

It's called specification marketing and, well, it often works... at least for Lionsgate. How about Showtime's Weeds, in spectacular 7.1? :) Just admit it. Just seeing "7.1" makes it sound better, doesn't it? Almost as good as watching a film with the bitrate meter on. :)

LOL, Guilty! I've definitely popped the bitrate meter on my PS3 at times to check out what's going on [typically for video as PCM seems to be fixed at 4.6 Mbps for most 5.1 movies).

Sadly I've got a 7.1 receiver (Panny XR-57; it's all that fits in my budget, really) but it only supports 5.1 PCM.

It's called specification marketing and, well, it often works... at least for Lionsgate. How about Showtime's Weeds, in spectacular 7.1? :) Just admit it. Just seeing "7.1" makes it sound better, doesn't it? Almost as good as watching a film with the bitrate meter on. :)

I must admit that I initially had a similar thought, but after hearing a good 7.1, it's unmistakable. When they're done well, there's a big difference that's not from "hype factor" either.
I'm sold on 7.1 surround now.
Lions Gate has been doing so many of their movies like this. Their audio seem to be balanced out perfectly with 7.1. 3:10 to Yuma & Ultimate Avengers rocked my world.
Now has their PQ caught up to their AQ? I think they're getting better.

7.1 is definitely the real deal! I was watching 3:10 to Yuma and the bullets were whizzing around me and then the shotgun blasts(WOW!). I felt like someone was punching me in the chest. I am sure my PB13 Ultra had something to do with that but that final gunbattle sequence was something to behold!

7.1 > 5.1.

Much like DVD, 5.1 audio is kind of dated to me. Many of us have had 7.1 for a long time, just to gain the benefits of the EX matrixed rear surround field; but having real discrete 7.1 is amazing.

My wife and just finished watching 'War' tonight. While I can't say I loved the movie, I certainly loved the soundtrack. The soundfield was really all around me and seemed far less "gimmicky" than many 5.1 mixes where every effect is placed to the left or right of you.

Sure, when honestly mixed for 7.1. But Waiting... & Weeds... not so much. Just a marketing check-point.

Where do u guys have your 2 speaker in the back positioned. High up, or at ear level?

I have mine at ceiling level but pointed downward.

7.1 is definitely the real deal! I was watching 3:10 to Yuma and the bullets were whizzing around me and then the shotgun blasts(WOW!). I felt like someone was punching me in the chest. I am sure my PB13 Ultra had something to do with that but that final gunbattle sequence was something to behold!

I wasn't only impressed by the sound effects, but the music also. Hearing the drums come from the front and then echo in the back really bring a 3D effect to it.

It's called specification marketing and, well, it often works... at least for Lionsgate. How about Showtime's Weeds, in spectacular 7.1? :) Just admit it. Just seeing "7.1" makes it sound better, doesn't it? Almost as good as watching a film with the bitrate meter on. :) I'm sure some fool might do that, but you can count me out. ;)

Another thing I noticed is a correctly mixed 7.1 track seems to get rid of the need of a dipole/bipole side speaker. Everything just seems to blend perfectly using a direct speaker.
I see highdefdigest just gave War a reference score for audio:). Even if the movie is bad I would still get alot of fun out of a soundtrack thats as good or better than 3:10!

Bought War and 3:10 2 Yuma. Watched war on Thursday. Awesome sound. Watching 3:10 Sunday before the football games. Will report back. I actually like War. Shoot em up is 7.1 also but the movie was terrible.

Dif strokes for dif folks. Shoot 'em Up was my fave in many moons.

Hope to watch Shoot 'em up today. Heard lotsa good stuff about the 7.1 sound (reason I bought it). The film was on several critics' "worst films of 2007 lists" - but should be a fun movie (if you don't take it too seriously) :)

Sleeping Beauty was originally mixed for 5 stage channels (L, LC, C, RC, R) and mono surrounds on the 70mm mag prints.

Unless they have gone back to the original stems and remixed the whole works (which is possible, I suppose) 7.1 is going to be pure specsmanship on it.

Vern

I've just recently added two speakers onto my setup so I now have 7.1. I bought 3.10 to Yuma to check out the 7.1 but I found the soundfield to be very low and flat with a very front heavy soundstage. Apparently i'm the only one, so i must be doing something wrong. I have a Pana BD10 and Pana XR700 receiver. Any ideas?

Can someone recommend a good scene to do on 3.10 that makes the back speakers stand out.?

Mnay thanks

Watched WAR in 7.1 (showed up as 7.1 descrete on my amp) but cannot get 7.1 on SHOOT EM UP.Only shows as 5.1.

Anybody else had this problem?Could be that it is DTS-HD-MASTER which my PANNY BD-10A cannot decode?Where as WAR is PCM 7.1

Im playing it through HDMI into my amp.

Thanks:)

I watched Hairspray. Being a musical, the focus is more on the music, then discrete surround effects.

So I'm not sure how much this track benefited from 7.1 as opposed to a 5.1 track. Its not like I was hearing cymbals in the rears, bass guitar in the sides and lead guitar and drums up front.
That's too bad, I think some music can benefit greatly from surround sound.

I was impressed by the sound stage of the music in the title-sequence of Paprika. Individual instruments sound like they are emanating from unique positions around me. Echoes move around as if they are bouncing inside my head. The title-sequence music is as abstract and disorienting as the movie's on-screen visuals! However, Paprika's pop-electronica music style affords much greater freedom of mixing the sound stage, compared to the more grounded style of music in Hairspray.

Watched WAR in 7.1 (showed up as 7.1 descrete on my amp) but cannot get 7.1 on SHOOT EM UP.Only shows as 5.1.

Anybody else had this problem?Could be that it is DTS-HD-MASTER which my PANNY BD-10A cannot decode?Where as WAR is PCM 7.1

Im playing it through HDMI into my amp.

Thanks:)

Yes, Shoot 'em up is DTS HD Master. It bitstreams to my Onkyo 805 and it shows as DTS HD Master Audio 7.1 on my receiver.

To check, go to setup/audio options on any disc, to see what the audio options are.

Watched WAR in 7.1 (showed up as 7.1 descrete on my amp) but cannot get 7.1 on SHOOT EM UP.Only shows as 5.1.

Anybody else had this problem?Could be that it is DTS-HD-MASTER which my PANNY BD-10A cannot decode?Where as WAR is PCM 7.1

Im playing it through HDMI into my amp.

Thanks:)

You cant get the 7.1 mix from DTS masters.

I've just recently added two speakers onto my setup so I now have 7.1. I bought 3.10 to Yuma to check out the 7.1 but I found the soundfield to be very low and flat with a very front heavy soundstage. Apparently i'm the only one, so i must be doing something wrong. I have a Pana BD10 and Pana XR700 receiver. Any ideas?

Can someone recommend a good scene to do on 3.10 that makes the back speakers stand out.?

Mnay thanks

The very begining when the kid lights up the match and you hear horses running behind you.
Did you use a SPL meter to calibrate your speakers?

Thanks i guess thats why i cant get the 7.1 on SHOOT EM UP:(

Thanks I'll check it out.

No i didn't use any meter to calibrate them :) They sound ok from the test tone though!?!

in my 7.1 system I have placed all tweeters at ear level mainly to maximize my enjoyment of multi-channel music.
The sound effects from movies are great too. I thouroughly enjoyed Yuma (not just the sound) and plan to get War from Blockbuster on blu-ray.

War was a good movie and had a great soundtrack. Excellent use of the side and rear channels.

I have everything Audyssey calibrated through the Denon 4306. All 7 Polk speakers at ear level.

Finally got a chance to watch War last night as it has been hard to rent. Well I wasted my time waiting that is for sure. I should have just bought it! :)

This is a GREAT BD! I loved the movie, the sound was exceptional, and the PQ wasn't anything which turned me off though I've seen better.

Live Free Or Die Hard and Xmen Last Stand were the two best movies for sound that I've heard. Throw this one right up there and even if you don't have 7.1, watch it anway!

Agree about 7.1 pcm. Have you watched and listened to War with Jet Li? That 7.1 pcm track is the best I've heard in terms of a soundtrack yet. Very impressed.

I just watced this and it was amazing!:eek: This is the first 7.1 track where I could tell a noticable dif over 5.1 (including 5.1 with post processing such as Ultra2). Very impressed!:D

In a 7.1 setup the speakers that once were your rears in a 5.1 move up to the sides in a 7.1 correct? ( I know it's a matter of judgement but let's just say those speakers are better than the ones you plan to bring in the mix). Also the side speakers are now directly to the left and right of the listening sweetspot or a little forward of the sweetspot?

In my case the sides just a tad bit behind of the axis of my ears, but they aim toward just front of my seated position. All my speakers are monopole as well, my preference.

In a 7.1 setup the speakers that once were your rears in a 5.1 move up to the sides in a 7.1 correct?Yes. The surrounds of a 5.1 set-up become the sides of a 7.1 set-up. The second pair of surrounds go behind you. Also the side speakers are now directly to the left and right of the listening sweetspot or a little forward of the sweetspot?Directly to the sides. If not, then a little rearward of the sweet spot. Last resort for me would be slightly forward of the listeners (not so bad in a 7.1 set-up, since there is a second pair of surrounds anchoring sounds behind you).

Sanjay

To anyone with a 7.1 setup.... pick this one up today!Agreed;)

War is the best 7.1 sound I've heard yet. While not as natural as Yuma, it's makes up in sheer over-the-top sound FX.

Bleh, trying to read the thread and something didn't seem right, and then I realized it is a year old.

You've convinced me, gonna rent 3:10 asap. I've only been matrixing 5.1 movies so far.

The Orphanage has a very effective 7.1 DTS-HD/MA soundtrack. Creaking floorboards, etc. all are quite convincing.

Lee

Just personal preference: my favourite soundtracks are the ones I'm never aware of when watching the movie. Yes, and just for curiosity compared the 7.1 track on BD to the 5.1 track on DVD. FilmMixer was correct: the difference between 7.1 discrete and 5.1+PLIIx isn't very big, with rear-vs-side imaging remaining fairly consistent.

SanjayThat's useful information. This thread prompted me to see what 7.1 Blu Rays I have, and it turns out I don't have a single one. "Demo" audio and video may be fun, but I'd never buy a movie with those qualities that I didn't like strictly as a movie.

Greetings!
Just about to finally step up to HD lossless 7.1 glory! 2 new rear surrounds are in the mail to me as I type.
I have a Samsung BD-UP5000 Hybrid Blu/HDDVD>Denon 3808ci AVR>ISF calibrated Samsung HL-S6187W 1080 DLP.
The soundfield I currently experience is amazing in my room, and I anticipate I will be quite happy with the extra depth.
From what I have learned the "surrounds" should be 90 to 110 degrees of sweet spot and the "back surrounds" should be 135 to 150 degrees of sweet spot.
My surround are at ear level, but I will not be able to locate the back surrounds at that level. I did buy a mount that will allow me to point them directly at the sweet, spot so once calibrated, should be as good.
The problem I am facing is how to accurately calculate where 135 to 150 degrees is from my seating location.
Any insight is appreciated.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Anyway you slice the pie, rear centre speakers are the least important speakers in a system. I've had had a 6.1 or 7.1 set-up for atleast 9 years. The backs add a little somethin' to some movies but that's it. When all your T's are crossed and I's are dotted, adding backs is worth the time of day, IMO.

In a 7.1 setup the speakers that once were your rears in a 5.1 move up to the sides in a 7.1 correct? ( I know it's a matter of judgement but let's just say those speakers are better than the ones you plan to bring in the mix). Also the side speakers are now directly to the left and right of the listening sweetspot or a little forward of the sweetspot?

Yes, directly to the sides and elevated. The sound should be diffused (for example, bipolar). The new rears should be direct radiating.

Anyway you slice the pie, rear centre speakers are the least important speakers in a system.

Maybe for many movies, but for gaming they are very important, especially online gaming. :cool:

Yes, directly to the sides and elevated. The sound should be diffused (for example, bipolar). The new rears should be direct radiating. I wonder what speaker type mixers use especially if they do near-field mix for home releases.

The Orphanage has a very effective 7.1 DTS-HD/MA soundtrack. Creaking floorboards, etc. all are quite convincing.

Lee

This is my favorite of the 7.1 mixes i've heard.

Maybe for many movies, but for gaming they are very important, especially online gaming. :cool:That would be relevant if this was a gamer forum, instead of the movie forum it is.

Another vote here for The Orphanage!!! ;)

rush hour 3 is 7.1 anyone check that out?

well i never listened to 7.1, i have 6.1 and i think the jump from 5.1 to 6.1 is a bigger improvement than the leap from 6.1 to 7.1...
if every movie would have it, i'd probably i upgrade.

rush hour 3 is 7.1 anyone check that out?

SQ is very good..
Movie = So, So ;)

well i never listened to 7.1, i have 6.1 and i think the jump from 5.1 to 6.1 is a bigger improvement than the leap from 6.1 to 7.1...
if every movie would have it, i'd probably i upgrade.

If you've never heard 7.1, how can you possibly compare 5.1 to 6.1 vs. 5.1 to 7.1?

I went from 6.1 to 7.1. Very significant move. And even if the movie isn't 7.1, DD processing to 7.1 vs 6.1 is still a significant improvement.

My vote goes to either HB2 or Bangkok Dangerous. The Orphanage is awesome as well.

That would be relevant if this was a gamer forum, instead of the movie forum it is.

Excuse me. But this section is Blu Ray software, not a "movie" forum exclusively.

Maybe for many movies, but for gaming they are very important, especially online gaming. :cool:

I wouldn't have known that. Homey don't play those games. I just play Ms. Pacman & Jr. Pacman....in real life I'm Dot Mongur, champion of the Federation, the I.P.F. , the International Pacman Federation. I don't play the game, I operate it. Anybody who challenges me better be ready to rumble because I play full-contact Pacman. I'm undefeated...."is there no one on planet Houston that can even challenge me" ? ;)

Video games would be modern, noisey, and effective in mi teatro! 5 x 200 and a meager 2x 130 for rear centre. I'm good to go if I get the bug, eh!

Excuse me. But this section is Blu Ray software, not a "movie" forum exclusively.I don't see a single thread in this forum dedicated to talking about video games. I see a lot of threads, however, devoted to MOVIE picture and audio quality, film grain, etc.

we should just castrate him now ;)

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?

My room is 20' x 12' . Your room is awfully square. I tend to think that a bit more rectangular would be better. Any chance of that? You said will be.

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?


12 x 17.5 room here with 7.1 and I can without question tell a dif between a 5.1 track and a 7.1 track (or using PLIIx on a 5.1 track) as far as the rear surround presence in my sweet spot. The dif between using the rear surrounds and not once out of the sweet spot becomes even greater and even more noticable in my room. So to answer your question, my room is without question big enough to benefit from rear surround information.

mine is only about 10 feet wide, right now i have 6.1, i think 10 might be too small to place 4 speakers there,

so it would: Speaker--(3.5feet)Speaker--(3.5feet)Speaker--(3.5feet)Speaker

Yep, 3:10 is probably the most immersive audio track I've EVER had the pleasure of listening to. Nothing sounded processed, but rather, I felt like I was on the set with the actors. Real guns ablazing all around me.


And that was with only a 5.1 setup ;)


Uncompressed audio > HD video

My room is 20' x 12' . Your room is awfully square. I tend to think that a bit more rectangular would be better. Any chance of that? You said will be.


No, I can't change it unfortunetly. I wish I could. I said will be because the house is being built. Unfortunetly I don't have the $$ to have them change the floor plan that much.

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?

16 x 20

Thanks for the info fellas. Sorry to dig up a year old thread but this seemed like the best thread for my questions. Was just hoping the original guys were still around to answer.

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?
Just a thought, and what I had to do for my smaller room is I went with a frontal 7.1 system that I adapted from the DTS site. My TV and front speakers are in a corner with my #6 and #7 speakers on the right angled side walls more to the front. The two rears are in the traditional layout position. While I am sure a longer room would sound better, the 7.1 in this layout sounds better than 5.1 to my ears. FWIW.

Thanks for the info fellas. Sorry to dig up a year old thread but this seemed like the best thread for my questions. Was just hoping the original guys were still around to answer.

What sdurani said in post #67. He's very knowledgeable about this stuff. I would also add to make sure they are 2-3 feet above your head.

I agree, the 7.1 PCM track on Yuma is very immersive. Felt like I was inside the iron stagecoach during the battle:D Shots and ricochets from every direction.
I cannot get the DTS HD MA 7.1 tracks either(PS3) so this was my first experience with discrete 7.1, not dissapointed!

I have a PS3 why cant we get DTS HD MA 7.1? i thought it sends the signal to your receiver.

No, I can't change it unfortunetly. I wish I could. I said will be because the house is being built. Unfortunetly I don't have the $$ to have them change the floor plan that much.

You'll make out fine. Just keep squeezing info out of folks around here. Before I built my house, I made a 6.1 system work spectacularly well with advice from this FORUM. I was not a tenderfoot even then but had some to learn and this was the place to just do it bay-bay!

My apartment's dimensions were way worse than a bit on the square side but you experiment, ask advice, then you experiment some more. I ended up with 4 Atlantic Technology direct-drivers & matching centre. I had a pair of AT bi-pole surrounds for rear centre/s but any which'a way I used both it didn't sound as good as just one amped by a Rotel 70 x 2 or bridged to 1 x 180 amp.

I had a Smart Jr. outboard Circle Surround EX processor to compliment my Marantz AV9000 pre. Remember, this is ano 2000. There are few if any head units that do 6.1/7.1 . My Marantz was less than a year old. My first foray into mondo beyondo 5.1 .

It's just gotten better since. I finally retired my Smart Jr. and Marantz some over a year ago. I got an Onkyo 805 reciever to use as a pre because Integra 9.8 pre's were in such short supply. I couldn't get one. Throwing money didn't even help! ;)

You'll find a way to adjust your stuff to the room. Go slow actually attaching the rear centre/s to the back wall. Those will be the hardest speakers to place. Experiment a bunch. I used two of my nephews as human speaker stands. I put the Phantom Menace LD on an A-B repeat and tried higher-lower, closer-more split till I made up my mind and my nephews were thretening to quit and asked for more money.... ;) Damn, human speaker stands get expensive by the hour! Just kidding!

Good luck on your casero neuva, si? :) or Buenos Suerte on your new house....and the most important room! ;) Besides the la-trine, of course!

Thanks for the info fellas. Sorry to dig up a year old thread but this seemed like the best thread for my questions. Was just hoping the original guys were still around to answer.

No need to apologize, I'm a huge fan of 7.1 and hope to have more 7.1 BD soon.

Greetings!
Rear surrounds and speaker brackets are in. Any tips for getting them placed in the 135 to 150 degree range?
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Greetings!
Rear surrounds and speaker brackets are in. Any tips for getting them placed in the 135 to 150 degree range?
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Sit in the center "sweet spot" facing between your two front speakers. Make a note of locations on the side walls at 90 degrees (both left and right, in line with your seat) and directly behind you (180 degrees). Mount the rear surrounds 1/2 (or a bit more) of the distance between the 90 degree location and the 180 degree location. That will give 135 degrees at the midpoint, or 135-150 if you went a little farther back.

Lee

Yep, 3:10 is probably the most immersive audio track I've EVER had the pleasure of listening to. Nothing sounded processed, but rather, I felt like I was on the set with the actors. Real guns ablazing all around me.


And that was with only a 5.1 setup ;)


Uncompressed audio > HD video
I actually had the opposite experience as you, it sounded very processed in 5.1. In 7.1 it was more natural, but not outstanding IMO.

Thanks, Lee...
It was so simple it was stupid;)
I was ready to break out the protractor and the laser. Thanks for saving me from myself!
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

i agree, the 7.1 pcm track on yuma is very immersive. Felt like i was inside the iron stagecoach during the battle shots and ricochets from every direction.
I cannot get the dts hd ma 7.1 tracks either(ps3) so this was my first experience with discrete 7.1, not dissapointed!


i have a ps3 why cant we get dts hd ma 7.1? I thought it sends the signal to your receiver.

01-16-08, 03:19 pm ;)

You guys w/ 7.1...what size room do you have? My media room will be 17x15. I've been told by a couple people that it is not big enough to benefit from it and I should have 5.1. What are your thoughts?

20 x 20

I have a PS3 why cant we get DTS HD MA 7.1? i thought it sends the signal to your receiver.

Do you have current Firmware...? I'm not a gamer but I thought current firmware add DTS-HD MA... Also set your PS3 to PCM (LPCM) not Bitstream.

Steve

I have a 14X17 room with 7.1 with great results.

I have a 14X17 room with 7.1 with great results.Same room size, same results. I sit about 3/5ths of the way back from the front wall, which puts the rear speakers roughly 7 feet behind me (spread about 8 feet apart on the back wall). Gives clear rear-vs-side and left-vs-right separation in the surround field.

Sanjay

Well, TODAY (yeah, I know, I'm late) I watched 3:10 on BD for the first time. 7.1 Klipsch setup, Onk 805, everything working fine. I got up and put my ear to the rears a few times and didn't hear ANYTHING!

So, my question is, can someone point me to a time marker with some rear audio?

You know, while typing this I began to wonder....my reciever was in THX Cinema mode....would that "override" the rears with 7.1 PCM?

Now that I consider it, I think I screwed up with the THX Cinema being engaged. I should go back and try PCM mode (I think that's what it's called on the 805....).

Any ideas?

Well, TODAY (yeah, I know, I'm late) I watched 3:10 on BD for the first time. 7.1 Klipsch setup, Onk 805, everything working fine. I got up and put my ear to the rears a few times and didn't hear ANYTHING!

So, my question is, can someone point me to a time marker with some rear audio?

You know, while typing this I began to wonder....my reciever was in THX Cinema mode....would that "override" the rears with 7.1 PCM?

Now that I consider it, I think I screwed up with the THX Cinema being engaged. I should go back and try PCM mode (I think that's what it's called on the 805....).

Any ideas?

If your receiver has a pcm mode or multi channel in set it to that. Also, make sure your BD player is set to pcm, not bitstream.

The surrounds and back speakers get a work out in this movie.... I like how you can hear some hammering going on when Wade is in the bar with the bartender. Just the little effects that make you say wow... pretty :cool:. We all can hear the big major gun fight, it's the little things that jump out to me to appreciate the 7.1 separation.

Steve

Any way I can downmix PCM to 5.1 and than add IIx?
I would like to try this myself. I suppose I could just listen to the the Dolby track, but I would want to be fair.
If IIx sounds just as good, than these are some of the best sound mixers in the buisness.

***Update***
By telling my Panny BD10 that I didn't have rear speakers, I managed to input 5.1 to my receiver(strange, I thought that it would only have an affect on analog... not HDMI) and then applied IIX.
I stand by my original post. Although IIx does do a superb job, it doesnt come close to the accuracy and detail that 7.1 discrete does.

For those of you only using 5.1, as far as I can tell, the Panny doesnt "throw away" any audio. It is simply sent to the side surrounds. In the 7.1 discrete formats, there are standard ways to deliver compatible 5.1 signals. In the case of 7.1 using 4 surrounds, the default is to mix Ls+Lb and Rs+Rb into the Ls/Rs of the 5.1 core. So a player never needs to downmix--it's already been done.

While at Dolby, we proposed a simple means to the few studios making 7.1 mixes that would downmix the 4 surrounds in such a way that a PLIIx decoder could easily distinguish the back channels from the side channels. A PLIIx encoder. It can be done right in the mixing console, as it's simple mixing coefficients. And of course if the 7.1 version is made this way, with a PLIIx compatible 5.1 core, that would be the 5.1 mix we would recommend the studio use for the DVD, too, but not sure they would necessarily take that advice.

Based on the tests we did, if the soundtrack you are playing was made with PLIIx downmixing, it will mimic the discrete 7.1 pretty well IMHO. If the movie was downmixed in the conventional way, then it will not do as well, just as Shamus reported.

Thanks Roger, I had wondered about the particulars of how 7.1 was handled for a 5.1 setup.

And thanks to all of those who have suggested 3:10 to Yuma! I've been running 7.1 for several months but have never seen this. It arrives from Netflix today!

The thread creator convinced me to buy this title on Blu-ray.

I had always wanted to see it but forgot all about it. I didn't realize it had a 7.1 PCM track either.

So I picked it up the other day and watched it. It's great! He was right as the 7.1 track really was great.

22 x 34 room here. Yea 7.1 is great ... then you add LFE shakers to your seating. Then you hear and feel the bullets. I have had guests scream and look in their seats to see what flew at them.

22 x 34 room here. Yea 7.1 is great ... Then you add lfe shakers to your seating. Then you hear and feel the bullets. I have had guests scream and look in their seats to see what flew at them.sweeeeet......

The thread creator convinced me to buy this title on Blu-ray.

I had always wanted to see it but forgot all about it. I didn't realize it had a 7.1 PCM track either.

So I picked it up the other day and watched it. It's great! He was right as the 7.1 track really was great.

Thanks... dont forget the thread is over a year old! :D
I havent watched it in awhile, but still dont think any other 7.1 track was as good. I did like saw V 7.1 track, but it wasnt very natural... more of a gimmick.

Anyone else with 7.1 recommendations?

Golden Compass

My room is 20' x 12' . Your room is awfully square. I tend to think that a bit more rectangular would be better. Any chance of that? You said will be.

make the one end put a partition put ur pc bluray player dvd player all that in that small rectangle and end up with big rectangle

Golden Compass

I think Shamus was not able to process DTS 7.1 discreet lossless when he started this thread. If that is still the case, Golden Compass is not an option for him....
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

In the 7.1 discrete formats, there are standard ways to deliver compatible 5.1 signals. In the case of 7.1 using 4 surrounds, the default is to mix Ls+Lb and Rs+Rb into the Ls/Rs of the 5.1 core. So a player never needs to downmix--it's already been done.

While at Dolby, we proposed a simple means to the few studios making 7.1 mixes that would downmix the 4 surrounds in such a way that a PLIIx decoder could easily distinguish the back channels from the side channels. A PLIIx encoder. It can be done right in the mixing console, as it's simple mixing coefficients. And of course if the 7.1 version is made this way, with a PLIIx compatible 5.1 core, that would be the 5.1 mix we would recommend the studio use for the DVD, too, but not sure they would necessarily take that advice.

Based on the tests we did, if the soundtrack you are playing was made with PLIIx downmixing, it will mimic the discrete 7.1 pretty well IMHO. If the movie was downmixed in the conventional way, then it will not do as well, just as Shamus reported.

I just finished watching King Kong and although it is only 5.1, I used ultra2 to matrix 7.1 and it was absolutely fantastic.

Ultra2?

Wasn't Kong a surround ex encoded movie?

Wasn't Kong a surround ex encoded movie?

I'd have to think so since it did such a great job at matrixing to 7 channels.

Ultra2?

THX ultra2.... its just like Dolby IIx but with the reequalization and a few other things I think.

Thanks, Shamus.
I'm taking it you are running a THX certified AVR? Do you still not have DTS HD processing?
Best,
James
snowtrooper1966

Thanks, Shamus.
I'm taking it you are running a THX certified AVR? Do you still not have DTS HD processing?
Best,
James
snowtrooper1966

yep! im all good.

Today, I was using the computer, which is located between the surround and rear surround (closer to the rear) and was "watching" a HD Dolby sat broadcast that was being processed with PLIIx. There was a bat flying around on the program, and as it flew around the room, it flew around mine too. I am still not used to the 7.1 and hearing sound from this new location can be surprising, albiet it pleasently so. I love the subltle (and sometimes not so), room filling experience I am having with the 7.1 setup!
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

I have to admit that I'm a purist. I won't alter a films OAR by zooming anything. I won't matrix 5.1 to 7.1 if it wasn't mixed that way. I want to hear it the way it was meant to be heard...or as close to that as I can get.

I have to admit that I'm a purist. I won't alter a films OAR by zooming anything. I won't matrix 5.1 to 7.1 if it wasn't mixed that way. I want to hear it the way it was meant to be heard...or as close to that as I can get. Must be a drag eating food without salt. ;) I'm in total agreement with you about gross distortions such as stretching video to fit a different AR screen (I'm fine with uniform zooming, though, and unless you meant to include original image size in your definition of artistic intent, I think you're ok with it, too. No?). Expanding 5.1 to 7.1 may actually fulfill what was meant to be heard better than the 5.1 alone. What was monitored in a studio isn't always a pedigree of how it was mean to be heard. It's what the mixer heard in a studio. We don't make studios in our homes, for various sound reasons, pun intended.

I have to admit that I'm a purist. I won't alter a films OAR by zooming anything. I won't matrix 5.1 to 7.1 if it wasn't mixed that way. I want to hear it the way it was meant to be heard...or as close to that as I can get.

In general, I feel the same way. If I am watching a film, it has zero processing applied. I am just playing around with my system since I just hooked up the 7.1 and cannot seem to get a reply on the receiver forum. Pehaps the knowledgeable folks here can help.
With my Denon 3808ci, there are several selectable playback modes associated with 7.1 surround back speakers.
The PLIIx I understand, but there is MATRIX ON and NON MATRIX. I am not familiar with these, what they do to the signal, say a Dolby 5.1 or 2 channel stereo, and how matrix compares to PLIIx.
I would apply some processing on occasion to a HD Satalite feed, since I don't think I am going to degrade that super compressed signal;)
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Must be a drag eating food without salt. ;) I'm in total agreement with you about gross distortions such as stretching video to fit a different AR screen (I'm fine with uniform zooming, though, and unless you meant to include original image size in your definition of artistic intent, I think you're ok with it, too. No?). Expanding 5.1 to 7.1 may actually fulfill what was meant to be heard better than the 5.1 alone. What was monitored in a studio isn't always a pedigree of how it was mean to be heard. It's what the mixer heard in a studio. We don't make studios in our homes, for various sound reasons, pun intended.
I never mentioned eating or salt for that matter. I don't support zooming if it also involves cropping.

I prefer to listen to a 5.1 track as 5.1 and 7.1 as 7.1. Simple as that.

I never mentioned eating or salt for that matter.It was an analogy, and an apt one at that. People adjusts audio (and food) based on what they prefer. I prefer to listen to a 5.1 track as 5.1 and 7.1 as 7.1.No one is suggesting you do otherwise. But how is it "purist" to use only 2 surround speakers to play back a soundtrack that was "meant to be heard" on large arrays of surround speakers wrapped around the listener?

I am just playing around with my system since I just hooked up the 7.1 and cannot seem to get a reply on the receiver forum. Pehaps the knowledgeable folks here can help.
With my Denon 3808ci, there are several selectable playback modes associated with 7.1 surround back speakers.
The PLIIx I understand, but there is MATRIX ON and NON MATRIX. I am not familiar with these, what they do to the signal, say a Dolby 5.1 or 2 channel stereo, and how matrix compares to PLIIx.

IIRC, MATRIX ON means that the receiver takes the audio signal from the left and right surrounds in a 5.1 mix and matrixes the center back channels. NON MATRIX means that the center back channels are exact duplicates of the left and right surrounds, without matrixing. It simply copies the signal from the left surround into the center left speaker, etc.

It was an analogy, and an apt one at that. People adjusts audio (and food) based on what they prefer. No one is suggesting you do otherwise. But how is it "purist" to use only 2 surround speakers to play back a soundtrack that was "meant to be heard" on large arrays of surround speakers wrapped around the listener?
Check the mix. A BD release is not mixed for use in a commercial theater.

Check the mix. A BD release is not mixed for use in a commercial theater. Most movies are mixed for movie theaters. The process of mastering for home use does not negate that aspect.

If I am watching a film, it has zero processing applied.
I would apply some processing on occasion to a HD Satalite feed, since I don't think I am going to degrade that super compressed signal. Your Denon applies no bass management, no room EQ?

When you do on occasion use processing, what kind, and what sorts of degradations do you experience?

Most movies are mixed for movie theaters. The process of mastering for home use does not negate that aspect.
...The BD's you have at home...were they mixed for home theater use or commercial theater use?

A BD release is not mixed for use in a commercial theater.Depends. Some studios (e.g., Lionsgate) re-mix for BD, other studios (e.g., Sony) re-master/EQ for BD release (without changing the actual mix), while a few studios (e.g., Paramount) simply port over the theatrical mix for the BD release. And even the ones that re-master for home playback don't necessarily limit themselves to only 2 surround speakers (that's very rare).

Like I said, no one is discouraging you from playing back BD soundtracks based on your personal preference. But there's nothing to support your claim that 2 surround channels were "meant to be heard" on only 2 surround speakers. In fact, a tour of mixing studios would likely support the opposite contention for BD releases.

To that end, I agree with Roger: using more surround speakers (even without additional processing) may actually get you closer to the original intent, compared to mapping each surround channel to one-and-only-one surround speaker.

I give up. This is rather simple. A 5.1 mix is just that.

I've just recently added two speakers onto my setup so I now have 7.1. I bought 3.10 to Yuma to check out the 7.1 but I found the soundfield to be very low and flat with a very front heavy soundstage. Apparently i'm the only one, so i must be doing something wrong. I have a Pana BD10 and Pana XR700 receiver. Any ideas?

Can someone recommend a good scene to do on 3.10 that makes the back speakers stand out.?

Mnay thanks

NO! YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE! I have asked many times (in the 805 thread, unfortunately) for a TIME MARKER where BACK SURROUND signals are present, but never got any responses.

Using Panny BD30 via HDMI to 805. 805 shows PCM 7.1. NO SOUNDS IN BACK CHANNELS AT ALL. And I'm standing in a chair listening for something.....anything....and yes, my Klipsch system is LOUD, and will shake my house.....all other speakers were working their butts off in this movie (3:10, that is).

I thought it was the surround mode I had the 805 in, but no, still nothing in the back surrounds.

I'm finished venting.

IIRC, MATRIX ON means that the receiver takes the audio signal from the left and right surrounds in a 5.1 mix and matrixes the center back channels. NON MATRIX means that the center back channels are exact duplicates of the left and right surrounds, without matrixing. It simply copies the signal from the left surround into the center left speaker, etc.

Greetings!
Thanks for the reply!
So a matrixed 5.1 signal looks like it applies some phase shift and perhaps delay to the rear surrounds? Not too sure I like that.
Anyone have any experience how that differs to what PLIIx processing would to to the same 5.1 signal sent to the rear surrounds?
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

IIRC, MATRIX ON means that the receiver takes the audio signal from the left and right surrounds in a 5.1 mix and matrixes the center back channels. NON MATRIX means that the center back channels are exact duplicates of the left and right surrounds, without matrixing. It simply copies the signal from the left surround into the center left speaker, etc.

If I sould be posting this elswhere, please let me know, but it seems the most knowledgable sources are here in this thread....

The non matrix 5.1 sends the same info from the left and right surrounds to the rear surrounds. I was thinking non matrix was similar to 7 channel stereo, but now I am second guessing myself, since the 7 channel stereo my amp offers (Denon 3808ci) is based on a 2 channel stereo signal, whereas the non matrixed mode is duplicating the surround signal.
In the past with my 5.1 system, I noticed a distorted signal coming from my surrounds when applying PLIIx processing to a 2 channel source, so I favored applying 5 channel stereo instead of PLIIx.
The only way I can describe the distortion is that it sounds like a tape being fast forwarded or rewound and it seems to be localized to the vocal portion of the signal.
This has occured with two different Denon amps (3806 & 3808ci), before and after Audyessy calibration. It is seldom noticeable during sweetspot seated viewing, but I did notice it when very close to the surround. I guess just knowing it was there has always botherd me.
Not a huge deal, since the best viewing is HD media with discreet soundtracks, but I do watch quite a bit of satellite programming, and as I said, it has always botherd me since I do not know if it is just a function of PLIIx processing, or am I doing something wrong.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Your Denon applies no bass management, no room EQ?

When you do on occasion use processing, what kind, and what sorts of degradations do you experience?

You caught me;)
I am sending LFE to the sub, but have not run Audyssey since I have recently moved and added 7.1.

See the post above for my problem with PLIIx processing of a 2 channel signal...

Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

If I sould be posting this elswhere, please let me know, but it seems the most knowledgable sources are here in this thread....

The non matrix 5.1 sends the same info from the left and right surrounds to the rear surrounds. I was thinking non matrix was similar to 7 channel stereo, but now I am second guessing myself, since the 7 channel stereo my amp offers (Denon 3808ci) is based on a 2 channel stereo signal, whereas the non matrixed mode is duplicating the surround signal.
In the past with my 5.1 system, I noticed a distorted signal coming from my surrounds when applying PLIIx processing to a 2 channel source, so I favored applying 5 channel stereo instead of PLIIx.
The only way I can describe the distortion is that it sounds like a tape being fast forwarded or rewound and it seems to be localized to the vocal portion of the signal.
This has occured with two different Denon amps (3806 & 3808ci), before and after Audyessy calibration. It is seldom noticeable during sweetspot seated viewing, but I did notice it when very close to the surround. I guess just knowing it was there has always botherd me.
Not a huge deal, since the best viewing is HD media with discreet soundtracks, but I do watch quite a bit of satellite programming, and as I said, it has always botherd me since I do not know if it is just a function of PLIIx processing, or am I doing something wrong.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Interesting. I dont know why you are having those results, but I have never experienced anything like that with PLIIx. :confused:

Its got me perplexed. Same results w/different speakers and different year model amps...

Its got me perplexed. Same results w/different speakers and different year model amps...

Is this with a 5.1 or stereo track?

Like others have said, I've never had a problem like that?

In the past with my 5.1 system, I noticed a distorted signal coming from my surrounds when applying PLIIx processing to a 2 channel source, so I favored applying 5 channel stereo instead of PLIIx.

Not a huge deal, since the best viewing is HD media with discreet soundtracks, but I do watch quite a bit of satellite programming, and as I said, it has always botherd me since I do not know if it is just a function of PLIIx processing, or am I doing something wrong. You'll be relieved to know that your problem is a known issue.

When you play sources such as satellite TV or other low bitrate sources such as MP3 @ 128 kbps, there is a chance that post-processing will elevate or further expose the coding artifacts. Your description is quite accurate--I usually say it's like high frequency gurgling. Broadcasters (including cable and satellite) tend to use the lowest bitrate possible, and also re-encode already coded audio, which also degrades the result.

When the frequency response is changed (by an equalizer, room EQ, early reflection interference, multiband surround steering, lumpy speaker responses) or when signals are matrixed (added or subtracted to varying degrees) as in wideband surround decoders, the masking model that helped hide these nasties is out the window, and they become easier to hear. In the specific case of PLII/x, the total level of these artifacts is no higher than when you played the stereo source unprocessed--it's just that by redistributing them, the masking can become compromised.

Ironically, your assumption: >>I would apply some processing on occasion to a HD Satalite feed, since I don't think I am going to degrade that super compressed signal<< is actually kinda the opposite in reality. Post processing degrades severely coded audio a lot more than clean sources--at least in terms of these coding artifacts. Let's ignore other degradations caused by post processing for now.

ETA: BTW, the severity of coding artifacts is also codec-dependent. MPEG1 is quite poor in this respect, whereas others, such as DD and AAC, have coding tools which mitigate the problem. But any codec operated below its intended range of operation will gurgle or swirl at some point.

What cable or satellite service provides your TV?

So a matrixed 5.1 signal looks like it applies some phase shift and perhaps delay to the rear surrounds? Not too sure I like that.
Anyone have any experience how that differs to what PLIIx processing would to to the same 5.1 signal sent to the rear surrounds? I don't think these matrix modes apply any phase shift. From Josh's description, it sounds like the matrix mode is similar, if not identical, to the Cirrus Logic matrix mode (CES6.1??), which is a basic Surround EX decoder to extract a center back output, but leaves the side surrounds unprocessed. The non-matrix mode is basic remapping as via a Y-adapter, split each signal to 2 outputs. Very pure. In any case, delay is also non-degrading as far as signal processing is concerned--you use it every time you play 5.1.

Both of these are rather different from PLIIx, which creates 4 independent outputs from the Ls/Rs of a 5.1 source. It's an improved version of EX, if you will, both in quantity and quality.

A 5.1 mix is just that.What does that have to do with the number of speakers used for playback? This notion that each discrete delivery channel has to be mapped to a single speaker is a fairly recent mindset in the decades long history of surround sound. Before the mid/late 1990s, for example, movie soundtracks were 4 channels, delivered as discrete 2.0, intended to be played back (at home) using at least 5 speakers. Notice that none of those numbers match.

Fosgate and Lexicon were selling 7-channel pre-pros over 2 decades ago. Why do you think home theatre enthusiasts were setting up 7.1-speaker systems in 1986 when 5.1 sources wouldn't even show up for another 8 years? Recent converts to surround sound might recoil at the idea of scaling the number of channels in the source material to the number of speakers in their set-ups but, for those of us that were listening in surround before the discrete multi-channel era, it's a completely normal process.

So a 5.1 mix might be "just that", but that number has never dictated how many speakers should be used for playback, either in a commercial theatre or at home.

Ahhh! This forum is pure theater! Personally, I just like toys:o

Is this with a 5.1 or stereo track?

Like others have said, I've never had a problem like that?

Stereo processed with PLIIx....

You'll be relieved to know that your problem is a known issue.

When you play sources such as satellite TV or other low bitrate sources such as MP3 @ 128 kbps, there is a chance that post-processing will elevate or further expose the coding artifacts. Your description is quite accurate--I usually say it's like high frequency gurgling. Broadcasters (including cable and satellite) tend to use the lowest bitrate possible, and also re-encode already coded audio, which also degrades the result.

When the frequency response is changed (by an equalizer, room EQ, early reflection interference, multiband surround steering, lumpy speaker responses) or when signals are matrixed (added or subtracted to varying degrees) as in wideband surround decoders, the masking model that helped hide these nasties is out the window, and they become easier to hear. In the specific case of PLII/x, the total level of these artifacts is no higher than when you played the stereo source unprocessed--it's just that by redistributing them, the masking can become compromised.

Ironically, your assumption: >>I would apply some processing on occasion to a HD Satalite feed, since I don't think I am going to degrade that super compressed signal<< is actually kinda the opposite in reality. Post processing degrades severely coded audio a lot more than clean sources--at least in terms of these coding artifacts. Let's ignore other degradations caused by post processing for now.

ETA: BTW, the severity of coding artifacts is also codec-dependent. MPEG1 is quite poor in this respect, whereas others, such as DD and AAC, have coding tools which mitigate the problem. But any codec operated below its intended range of operation will gurgle or swirl at some point.

What cable or satellite service provides your TV?

Thanks, Roger, I am relived!
In retrospect, it does make sense that I am degrading an already bad signal by processing it.
My sat signal is Direct TV.
I use an HR 22 HD DVR with 500GB hard drive, it has a MPEG4 decoder.
Thanks again for chiming in. This has been bothering me for awhile, and it's good to finally start to get a grip on the fundamentals of the issue. My friends/family think I know whay too much about this stuff. I should have them read some of this...
Thanks for sharing the wisdom!
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Greetings!
Thanks for the reply!
So a matrixed 5.1 signal looks like it applies some phase shift and perhaps delay to the rear surrounds? Not too sure I like that.
Anyone have any experience how that differs to what PLIIx processing would to to the same 5.1 signal sent to the rear surrounds?
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

I don't think these matrix modes apply any phase shift. From Josh's description, it sounds like the matrix mode is similar, if not identical, to the Cirrus Logic matrix mode (CES6.1??), which is a basic Surround EX decoder to extract a center back output, but leaves the side surrounds unprocessed. The non-matrix mode is basic remapping as via a Y-adapter, split each signal to 2 outputs. Very pure. In any case, delay is also non-degrading as far as signal processing is concerned--you use it every time you play 5.1.

Both of these are rather different from PLIIx, which creates 4 independent outputs from the Ls/Rs of a 5.1 source. It's an improved version of EX, if you will, both in quantity and quality.

I got that notion in my head after reading Josh Z's reply to my post. I looked up "matrix decoder" on Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_decoder#Dolby_Pro_Logic_II__Matrix_.282:5.29
And read what it was saying about PLII (which I understand is different from PLIIx) and just extrapolated that it must be doing something similar with what my Denon calls "Matrix" processing in realtion to processing 5.1 signal for my 7.1 setup. All the matrix decoding the link shows do seem to apply some phase shift.
I thought that the distortion I was experiencing when applying PLIIX to a 2 channel source may be associated with some bad phase shift, and it still my be part of the equation, but it starts with the badly compressed source you described...
Thanks again!
Best,
James
snowtrooper1966

Stereo processed with PLIIx....

I have only used PLIIx with 5.1 sources so that must be why I have not experienced this.

So a matrixed 5.1 signal looks like it applies some phase shift and perhaps delay to the rear surrounds? Not too sure I like that.
Anyone have any experience how that differs to what PLIIx processing would to to the same 5.1 signal sent to the rear surrounds?

I haven't looked at my Denon owner's manual in ages, so this is entirely going by memory. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that MATRIX ON applies any additional processing beyond what ProLogic IIx is doing. All it does is allow ProLogic IIx to matrix the center back channels, which is accomplished through much the same means as traditional ProLogic matrixes a center front channel from a 2.0 source.

NON MATRIX disables the ProLogic IIx matrixing and instead maps a copy of the audio signal from the left surround channel to the left back speaker, and a copy of the right surround channel to the right back speaker.

I have ProLogic IIx turned on in my 3808CI, but also have it set for MATRIX ON. The two settings don't conflict with one another.

I have only used PLIIx with 5.1 sources so that must be why I have not experienced this.

Was that with a DVD source, or a sat feed?
IIRC, I did notice it last night after I started this discussion when applying PLIIx to a satelite 5.1 source for my 7.1.

Was that with a DVD source, or a sat feed?
IIRC, I did notice it last night after I started this discussion when applying PLIIx to a satelite 5.1 source for my 7.1.


DVD, BR, HD-DVD, and games only...no sat feed, hell I dont even have cable!:p:o

Do the arguments against a 5.1 or 7.1 setup from a 'purist' perspective also apply to stereo recordings?

I guess I just don't understand why a 2.0 system is considered by some to be 'pure' while others are less so.

Isn't splitting sound between two speakers just as arbitrary a method for sound reproduction as splitting it up into 3.1 5.1 or 7.1 configurations, processing or not? I don't see how panning a single source between two speakers is any less 'artificial' than any newer format. Seems to me that 'stereo' was just the first artificial method of sound reproduction in a long line that has led to 7.1 and beyond.

I am not trying to make an argument for one sounding better than another, I just don't understand why 2 speakers would be considered the holy grail by some and different configuration 'unpure,' when they all fall far short of reality and are all just variations of the same theme.

I got that notion in my head after reading Josh Z's reply to my post. I looked up "matrix decoder" on Wiki:
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_decoder#Dolby_Pro_Logic_II__Matrix_.282:5.29"] And read what it was saying about PLII (which I understand is different from PLIIx) Not to put too fine a point on it, but to clarify a few things:

1) Wiki is talking only about encoders. PL and PLII have no phase shifters in their decoders.
2) Wiki's encoder coefficients for PLII are incorrect. Not sure from which orifice they were obtained.
3) PLII and PLIIx innards are identical wrt to surround processing. The differences are external to the logic decoder core, and actually very simple (polarity inversions).

My sat signal is Direct TV.
I use an HR 22 HD DVR with 500GB hard drive, it has a MPEG4 decoder. In that case I strongly suspect it is not the fault of the "transmission codec" itself but partially the upstream "contribution codec," since MPEG4 is at minimum an AAC codec, which usually can avoid such foibles, or the combination of two codecs each running at marginal bitrates. DirecTV is re-encoding their sources (other than locally generated stuff like their pay movie channels which are encoded from PCM sources) so they can manage not only the codec used but the bitrates allocated. So these signals are experiencing tandem coding as well as whatever degradations may exist in the source feed itself.

You might try some 2-ch programs on PPV or HBO or other premium services and see if these gurgles still exist.

Dark City features 7.1...awesome movie and the soundtrack is even better! And I agree with a few other comments on the Orphanage, another great movie that features fantastic 7.1

DVD, BR, HD-DVD, and games only...no sat feed, hell I dont even have cable!:p:o

With my admittedly limited understanding of this, I would suggest that is why you have not experienced the distortion. Your sources are not compressed enough to exhibit the anomoly....
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Do the arguments against a 5.1 or 7.1 setup from a 'purist' perspective also apply to stereo recordings?

I guess I just don't understand why a 2.0 system is considered by some to be 'pure' while others are less so.

Isn't splitting sound between two speakers just as arbitrary a method for sound reproduction as splitting it up into 3.1 5.1 or 7.1 configurations, processing or not? I don't see how panning a single source between two speakers is any less 'artificial' than any newer format. Seems to me that 'stereo' was just the first artificial method of sound reproduction in a long line that has led to 7.1 and beyond.

I am not trying to make an argument for one sounding better than another, I just don't understand why 2 speakers would be considered the holy grail by some and different configuration 'unpure,' when they all fall far short of reality and are all just variations of the same theme.

Perhaps you are refering to folks who use tube amps and LP's. For them, I would surmise anything digital would be "unpure"....

Not to put too fine a point on it, but to clarify a few things:

1) Wiki is talking only about encoders. PL and PLII have no phase shifters in their decoders.
2) Wiki's encoder coefficients for PLII are incorrect. Not sure from which orifice they were obtained.
3) PLII and PLIIx innards are identical wrt to surround processing. The differences are external to the logic decoder core, and actually very simple (polarity inversions).

I appreciate you holding my hand through this and your patience. It is important to me to get at least a basic understanding of what is going on and you are helping immensly!
I did suspect that the Wikki info may have come from someone's "orifice", but was not in a position to second guess...
Thanks for clearing that up!
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

In that case I strongly suspect it is not the fault of the "transmission codec" itself but partially the upstream "contribution codec," since MPEG4 is at minimum an AAC codec, which usually can avoid such foibles, or the combination of two codecs each running at marginal bitrates. DirecTV is re-encoding their sources (other than locally generated stuff like their pay movie channels which are encoded from PCM sources) so they can manage not only the codec used but the bitrates allocated. So these signals are experiencing tandem coding as well as whatever degradations may exist in the source feed itself.

You might try some 2-ch programs on PPV or HBO or other premium services and see if these gurgles still exist.


Prior to reading this, I was listening to a Direct TV feed of an XM station. 2 channel with PLIIx applied. I did not notice the distortion, and thought I was losing my mind. It seemed to contradict everything I had been saying here recently...
Based on your observation above, it looks like you have nailed it!
This is not an across the board issue. It seems to be localized to specific channels, IIRC, and perceived distortion is based on the quality of the source.
It is also not apparent on any other source (with the exception of my local cable feed, which I only use as a backup in case the satellite dish is blocked by snow, and have not tested), lending more weight to your analysys.
That is probably why I have lived with it for so long, since it is not always apparent. It is great to have an inkling of the underlying issue at last.
I cannot thank you enough for your patience.

In summery, it looks like I will have no problem using PLIIx to process high quality 2 or 5.1 channel for my 7.1. In the instances where distortion is present, I will have to do further testing, but suspect 7 channel stereo may be the answer, at least for 2 channel source. I realize that by applying 7 channel stereo to a bad 2 channel source, I will not be getting any sort of surround effect, but I will at least to a small degree be getting some depth that the 7.1 offers without hearing the distortion.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

If I sould be posting this elswhere, please let me know, but it seems the most knowledgable sources are here in this thread....

The non matrix 5.1 sends the same info from the left and right surrounds to the rear surrounds. I was thinking non matrix was similar to 7 channel stereo, but now I am second guessing myself, since the 7 channel stereo my amp offers (Denon 3808ci) is based on a 2 channel stereo signal, whereas the non matrixed mode is duplicating the surround signal.
In the past with my 5.1 system, I noticed a distorted signal coming from my surrounds when applying PLIIx processing to a 2 channel source, so I favored applying 5 channel stereo instead of PLIIx.
The only way I can describe the distortion is that it sounds like a tape being fast forwarded or rewound and it seems to be localized to the vocal portion of the signal.
This has occured with two different Denon amps (3806 & 3808ci), before and after Audyessy calibration. It is seldom noticeable during sweetspot seated viewing, but I did notice it when very close to the surround. I guess just knowing it was there has always botherd me.
Not a huge deal, since the best viewing is HD media with discreet soundtracks, but I do watch quite a bit of satellite programming, and as I said, it has always botherd me since I do not know if it is just a function of PLIIx processing, or am I doing something wrong.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

I posted this in a several other threads. I encountered the same thing w/my 7.1 set up but only on certain programs. Even programs in Dolby Digital would produce that 'sound' to my side surrounds but not every DD program - just 'certain' ones. At a party last month I met a BUNCH of people who work for Comcast and one was someone who works w/their technology so I asked him why it happens with some shows and not others (I hear it when watching ESPN's Sportscenter all the time) and it's dependent on the show and not the station nor Comcast. It depends on how that show sends its audio - some will send it so the receiver will process/code the sound to 7.1 while others won't. In those cases I'll change the SB CH OUT to "Matrix" to have all speakers producing 'sound'. I don't hear this problem when watching any movies through the PS3, HDDVD player etc- it's only on certain broadcast shows.

I posted this in a several other threads. I encountered the same thing w/my 7.1 set up but only on certain programs. Even programs in Dolby Digital would produce that 'sound' to my side surrounds but not every DD program - just 'certain' ones. At a party last month I met a BUNCH of people who work for Comcast and one was someone who works w/their technology so I asked him why it happens with some shows and not others (I hear it when watching ESPN's Sportscenter all the time) and it's dependent on the show and not the station nor Comcast. It depends on how that show sends its audio - some will send it so the receiver will process/code the sound to 7.1 while others won't. In those cases I'll change the SB CH OUT to "Matrix" to have all speakers producing 'sound'. I don't hear this problem when watching any movies through the PS3, HDDVD player etc- it's only on certain broadcast shows.
Roger address this at the first post, top of this page...

....It depends on how that show sends its audio - some will send it so the receiver will process/code the sound to 7.1 while others won't. ...
From what I've learned, I do not think that is the case. Any incoming 2 or 5.1 channel signal is dependent on what you have the receiver set to. I do not think the signal can be flagged NOT to process as 5.1/7.1.

....In those cases I'll change the SB CH OUT to "Matrix" to have all speakers producing 'sound'. ...
As discussed at length here recently, from my experience, if the distortion is present, applying any sort of surround processing makes it worse. Non Matrix just copys the surrounds and sends that signal to the back surrounds, so you will hearing the distortion in 4 speakers. Again, from my experience, Matrix will shift the distortion that was primarily in the surrounds to the backs, so it will still be present. I have found for now that the only way to not exacerbate it when it is present is to apply 7 channel stereo.

Not a flame, just trying get you up to speed since it seems you read my original post on this, and not the following few pages...
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Originally posted in the Comcast thread: Anyone have a 7.1 surround set up and notice that when watching a station in dolby digital i have my receiver set to Dolby + PLII Cinema but some stations (ESPNHD for example) produce a low (barely audible) squeal on the side surrounds while producing sounds to the back surrounds while other stations (HBOHD) sends sound to all 7 speakers?

I got my question answered by Comcast:
"You are 100% correct. Programming is sent video and audio wise differently from each provider, including HD. This can also vary from program to program as well as Channel to Channel. Everything is moving so fast that programmers currently have very little consistency in the audio versions that they are sending out. "

Originally posted in the Comcast thread: Anyone have a 7.1 surround set up and notice that when watching a station in dolby digital i have my receiver set to Dolby + PLII Cinema but some stations (ESPNHD for example) produce a low (barely audible) squeal on the side surrounds while producing sounds to the back surrounds while other stations (HBOHD) sends sound to all 7 speakers? If, in PLIIx Movie or Surround EX mode, all the surround sound comes out the rear speakers and nothing from the sides (other than spurious noise), it means the surrounds are mixed in mono. In other words, not an effective use of the surround platform by the mixing engineer.

If you switch to PLIIx Music mode, it will leave some of the sound in the Lb/Rb speakers, which will more evenly distribute the sound among your surround speakers, and it will also mask the coding artifacts. Give it a try.

If, in PLIIx Movie or Surround EX mode, all the surround sound comes out the rear speakers and nothing from the sides (other than spurious noise), it means the surrounds are mixed in mono. In other words, not an effective use of the surround platform by the mixing engineer.

If you switch to PLIIx Music mode, it will leave some of the sound in the Lb/Rb speakers, which will more evenly distribute the sound among your surround speakers, and it will also mask the coding artifacts. Give it a try.

Will do! I 'thought' I tried switching it to PLIIx Music and it still didn't output to the side surrounds but I'll try it again just to be sure.

In summery, it looks like I will have no problem using PLIIx to process high quality 2 or 5.1 channel for my 7.1. In the instances where distortion is present, I will have to do further testing, but suspect 7 channel stereo may be the answer, at least for 2 channel source. I realize that by applying 7 channel stereo to a bad 2 channel source, I will not be getting any sort of surround effect, but I will at least to a small degree be getting some depth that the 7.1 offers without hearing the distortion.
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

Upon furtner testing, I have noticed that when applying 7 channel stereo to distorted satallite signal, the volume differece between commercials/program is exacerbated Vs PLIIx processing. Guess it's time for the feature upgrade...
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966