I just got off the phone with my local Cox tech support dept. I asked about their plans to implement the analog to digital changeover next year. My concern is for all my non digital hookups to tvs and dvd recorders that are now free since I have one digital cable box hooked up to one tv.

He said at the latest Cox w/b doing a complete changeover at the official date next year, but that it might even be 6 months early. He said all stations w/b digital, no analog even for local stations, and I would need a digital cable box for each hookup at $6 each per month.

I asked about what others here had posted about cable cos having until 2012 to completely drop analog and he told me I was wrong. He said I could thank the government for the higher fees I'd be paying - that Cox had no choice but to do it on or before next February.

When I stated that I thought that date was for OTA broadcasts and that cable cos had the option to continue some analog signals until 2012 he actually got angry and told basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about.

That might well be the case, but wow! What a windfall for the cable cos when they add the rentals of digital boxes for service that had hitherto been free (extra analog connections).

Interesting... I already reported my experience to you with Cox here in New Orleans. They seem to have a completely different attitude here. I wonder if it is on a market by market basis? Is Pheonix a smaller/newer market than N.O.; making it easier for them to transition?

Even though I have digital cable hooked to only one TV; I use the analog splits to feed my DVD recorders. I got cable hooked up again more for better analog reception than channel content. Just about everything on cable can be viewed online, bought or rented. I get excellent OTA reception on my Panasonic EZ17 DVD recorder with built in digital tuner. They would be disconnecting my cable if they would have displayed that kind of attitude to me here.

That's the way I have mine as well. I have one digital box with the cable split before the box and into my 3 Panasonic dvd recorders through the RF feed. I also have all 3 wired through my cable box into the line inputs since I record different types of programs on different units.

And that's just in my family room. I will need 2 more digital boxes in there, plus another 4 for my bedrooms.

Do you know whether the OTA converter boxes the government is doing the coupons for would work with the Pannys? I record a lot of stuff from "broadcast" channels so maybe I could save on a couple of the digital boxes?

Yes OTA converters should work fine with your Panny's. At least I'm betting on them. Note I like the sound of the Echostar tr-40. From my understanding it has a S-out to feed the Panny's, plus a event timer, so it can automatically change channels at specific times for unattended recordings of different channels. I'm not sure if all converters will have this last feature, but it sure will be important for me. I don't want no stinkin' 14 event 1 channel DVDR.

I would much prefer the scheduler over IR blaster, since none of my Panny DVDR's have the blaster, but I guess if your's did, you would have more choices for converter boxes, since I believe all will have a remote control.(responding to HVG's next post)

I am sure the gov. boxes would work fine; assuming you get good OTA digital reception of all channels. N.O. is relatively flat and all channels are in the same direction within 10 miles from my house but I still need to fine tune my indoor antenna for best reception of a given channel. Assuming you are already familiar with digital OTA reception in your area, just hook up the line outputs to the line in on your Panny's.

Controlling them may be the issue. You may have to change the channel on the converter manually unless it either has a scheduler or IR blaster to control the Panny's or the Panny's have a controller that can change channels on the converter. Otherwise, it should be do-able.

Thanks, guys. I'll be looking into those. Yes my Pannys have the IR blaster but I've NEVER gotten them to work reliably so I'd prefer a converter that could change its own channels.

To add to the confusion (am I the ONLY one who's confused?) I emailed a Cox guy who answers questions on the dslreports forum. I posted the same item that started this thread and here's his reply...

Thanks for checking in with me and I'm sorry that you were misinformed. We'll be offering analog for basic and expanded basic no different than we do today for many years to come. No box necessary to hit those tv sets in the extra bedroom, etc.... Hope that helps. CoxEngr

He said all stations w/b digital, no analog even for local stations, and I would need a digital cable box for each hookup at $6 each per month. I asked about what others here had posted about cable cos having until 2012 to completely drop analog and he told me I was wrong.I think you're both confused: Cable cannot drop analog until February 2009. They have to continue analog service either as it is now, or via the digital cable box with analog outputs, which he mentioned to you, until December 2012, when they can terminate both/either of those options. $6 is a little steep IMHO, but the regulation doesn't preclude a fee.

He said I could thank the government for the higher fees I'd be paying - that Cox had no choice but to do it on or before next February.Kinda-sorta. Cox had no choice but to start supporting digital broadcast channels by then. Also, there are some higher fees which you'll be paying that you have the government to thank for, but this isn't one of them.

What a windfall for the cable cos when they add the rentals of digital boxes for service that had hitherto been free (extra analog connections).This regulation was generally hailed as a rare "win" for big cable.

I think you're both confused: Cable cannot drop analog until February 2009. They have to continue analog service either as it is now, or via the digital cable box with analog outputs, which he mentioned to you, until December 2012, when they can terminate both/either of those options. $6 is a little steep IMHO, but the regulation doesn't preclude a fee.

I don't know if they are the ones confused. Cable is not bound by the broadcast switchover in Feb. 09 but AFAIK if they offer analog service then, they must continue to offer, at a minimum, the locals for an additional 3 years; which I interpret to be Feb 2012. At any rate, a digital STB with analog outs /= analog service.

You need to read the regulation, HomeVideoGuy. A digital STB with analog outputs IS analog service according to the regulation.

That is precisely why that regulation was considered a rare FCC "win" by big cable.

Cable is affected by the February 2009 switchover in that once a channel switches from dual format (analog + digital) to single format (digital-only) then the must-carry regulations force carriage of the digital channel. Prior do that, it requires carriage of the analog channel.

Also, there is no option whether or not to offer analog service. That is a requirement through December 2012. The only choice cable has is whether to so via analog signals down the coax versus digital STB with analog outputs.

It is OTA only in the 2009 switchover. The reasoning behind the switchover makes this obvious. The whole point of the switchover is to free up the large band of radio frequencies currently used up by old analog OTA TV.

Straight from the FCC's government website regarding this matter:
http://www.dtv.gov/consumercorner.html
Do cable TV networks, like CNN, MSNBC, Lifetime, etc., have to switch to digital broadcasting as well?

No. The current requirement to switch from analog to digital only applies to full-power broadcast TV stations, which use the public airwaves to provide free over-the-air programming. However, as cable providers convert to digital transmissions over their systems, you may need to subscribe to their digital tier to continue to receive this non-broadcast programming

It has become a huge pet peeve of mine to see this information misconstrued. Especially by overzealous TV salesmen.

Actually, here it their ruling, copied from their website:

FCC Adopts Rules to Ensure all Cable Customers
Receive Local TV Stations After the Digital Television Transition

Washington, D.C. – The Federal Communications Commission (“FCC”) today adopted rules to ensure all cable subscribers, including those with analog TV sets, can view broadcast television after the transition to digital television occurs on February 17, 2009. Approximately 35 percent of all television homes, or approximately 40 million households, are analog-only cable subscribers. The Commission is committed to ensuring that the 98 million TV viewers watching roughly 120 million sets retain the same access to their local stations after the transition as they do today.

By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-related material viewable by all of their subscribers. The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators to comply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal in analog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend to February 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace.

In addition, a cable system with activated channel capacity of 552 megahertz or less may request a waiver of the viewability requirements. The Commission is also seeking comment in a Further Notice on ways to minimize any economic impact on small cable operators while still complying with the statutory requirements for carriage of local TV stations.

While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard. Cable operators must carry broadcast signals so that the picture quality is at least as good as the quality of any other programming carried on the system.

Action by the Commission September 11, 2007 by Memorandum, Opinion and Order
(FCC 07-170). Chairman Martin, Commissioners Copps, Tate and McDowell with Commissioner Adelstein approving in part and dissenting in part. Separate statements issued by Chairman Martin Commissioners Copps, Adelsetin, Tate and McDowell

Media Bureau Staff Contact: Eloise Gore, eloise.gore@fcc.gov or Lyle Elder, lyle.elder@fcc.gov, 202-418-7200.

Sounds like option #2 could be interpreted to mean as long as they make the digital boxes available for rent they are in compliance.

Precisely. Again, that is why the regulation was considered a rare "win" by big cable.

Yes OTA converters should work fine with your Panny's. At least I'm betting on them. Note I like the sound of the Echostar tr-40. From my understanding it has a S-out to feed the Panny's, plus a event timer, so it can automatically change channels at specific times for unattended recordings of different channels. I'm not sure if all converters will have this last feature, but it sure will be important for me. I don't want no stinkin' 14 event 1 channel DVDR.

I would much prefer the scheduler over IR blaster, since none of my Panny DVDR's have the blaster, but I guess if your's did, you would have more choices for converter boxes, since I believe all will have a remote control.(responding to HVG's next post)Actually the Echostar TR-50 is the one to watch out for. An older analog Panasonic DVDR slaved to a converter box is a kludge without the EPG and the ease of one-touch record scheduling -- and it still only records SD. When the TR-50 comes out it will be time to upgrade my EH-85. The TR-50 gives one digital tuner(s), integrated EPG, recording in HD and the ability to record out to the E-85 those items I really wish to archive.

That's a feature list that's just impossible to ignore, especially given that the 2008 CES did not give the slightest hint that a HDD/DVDR, that had TVGOS and would record HD to the HDD, would be forthcoming.

Kelson, Yes the TR-40 and TR-50 are on my list of things to get. I'm curious about the price of the TR-50, the TR-40 should be nice for free. At least the first 2. And I'll finally be able to experience the TVGOS that everyone talks about(mostly positive).

Well, I got another response from a VP at Cox that I figured I'd pass along. The interesting part is when he says there's confusion within Cox. No kidding!

-Since I sent my first note, I did learn that there is one small area in Phoenix that only gets 20 analog channels total. But even there, those 20 channels will still remain after the transition. I assure you (and I'm the VP of Technology for Cox), that analog will be staying in PHX. I even brought this topic up at a few meetings this week.
-I also learned that there's much confusion on this topic in the marketplace (and probably as you've experienced within our own company). I found out from Marketing folks that there's a big initiative underway to do a education campaign on this topic, so that will certainly help (and looks like it couldn't come a minute too soon).
-I hope this helps. If there's any other questions I can answer, please let me know.

Actually, here it their ruling, copied from their website:

FCC Adopts Rules to Ensure all Cable Customers
Receive Local TV Stations After the Digital Television Transition

Washington, D.C. – The Federal Communications Commission (“FCC”) today adopted rules to ensure all cable subscribers, including those with analog TV sets, can view broadcast television after the transition to digital television occurs on February 17, 2009. Approximately 35 percent of all television homes, or approximately 40 million households, are analog-only cable subscribers. The Commission is committed to ensuring that the 98 million TV viewers watching roughly 120 million sets retain the same access to their local stations after the transition as they do today.

By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-related material viewable by all of their subscribers. The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators to comply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal in analog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend to February 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace.

In addition, a cable system with activated channel capacity of 552 megahertz or less may request a waiver of the viewability requirements. The Commission is also seeking comment in a Further Notice on ways to minimize any economic impact on small cable operators while still complying with the statutory requirements for carriage of local TV stations.

While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard. Cable operators must carry broadcast signals so that the picture quality is at least as good as the quality of any other programming carried on the system.

Action by the Commission September 11, 2007 by Memorandum, Opinion and Order
(FCC 07-170). Chairman Martin, Commissioners Copps, Tate and McDowell with Commissioner Adelstein approving in part and dissenting in part. Separate statements issued by Chairman Martin Commissioners Copps, Adelsetin, Tate and McDowell

Media Bureau Staff Contact: Eloise Gore, eloise.gore@fcc.gov or Lyle Elder, lyle.elder@fcc.gov, 202-418-7200.

All this is saying is that cable companies will be required to carry the new local digital stations.

Again all this affects is OTA. I guess we can all say this until we're blue in the face but people will believe what they want I suppose.

By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-related material viewable by all of their subscribers. The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators to comply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal in analog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend to February 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace.It soesn't seem to get much clearer than that. They are required to carry the local channels and make provisions so that people with analog TV's can view them. It does not mandate that they have to broadcast in analog so you can still use your TV tuner.

And the regulation is notable mostly for what it doesn't say, i.e., it doesn't say that the provisions cable companies make to ensure all subscribers have the necessary equipment to view the broadcast content have to be "free" or even "affordable", and it doesn't even say that the cable company have to ensure that all subscribers have the necessary equipment to view the broadcast content on "all" their current analog devices. Provision of a single digital cable box with analog outputs, perhaps for a moderate fee, would satisfy the regulation. Folks should be prepared, and shouldn't be surprised about this, should it come to pass to them just that way.

Yes. The only thing that has become clear is how confusing this is.:D

It is only confusing if you assume that things are supposed to be inexpensive. ;)

Okay, so I guess this mean that unless they don't scramble these channel with a QAM tuner, then were stuck renting cable boxes.....that's stupid with choices from other providers...ATT, Vios, Sat.

All of whom require converter boxes for those channels.

Okay, so I guess this mean that unless they don't scramble these channel with a QAM tuner, then were stuck renting cable boxes.....that's stupid with choices from other providers...ATT, Vios, Sat.By law they cannot encrypt the local broadcast channels that one would receive via OTA. They can encrypt everything else. They will encrypt everything else. There is no reason for them to encrypt the channels other than control and profiteering.

People have long viewed their monthly cable bill as paying for blanket home coveage. Just like the phone service -- you pay a monthly fee and plug in as many phones as you have jacks and ringer equivalents. It has long been the desire of cable co's that users should pay a fee for every device that connects to their feed. They consider multiple household TV's connected to their cable to be a form of piracy. With encrypted digital cable they can now realize their desired business model. Because you will need their decryption hardware to view the signal they can now extract a service fee from you (in the form of STB rental) for every device you want to hook onto their cable.

1. When a cable company eliminates all analog service, they will be required to offer a digital limited basic package and leave that entire tier unscrambled.

2. Until 1993, most cable companies did charge an extra monthly fee for each set. Also, it was illegal to install your own splitters or extension cables to additional sets. With the signals unscrambled, it was difficult to enforce, but some people did get busted in audits. The 1993 cable act prohibited cable systems from charging extra for additional sets connected to the limited basic tier.

1. When a cable company eliminates all analog service, they will be required to offer a digital limited basic package and leave that entire tier unscrambled.

2. Until 1993, most cable companies did charge an extra monthly fee for each set. Also, it was illegal to install your own splitters or extension cables to additional sets. With the signals unscrambled, it was difficult to enforce, but some people did get busted in audits. The 1993 cable act prohibited cable systems from charging extra for additional sets connected to the limited basic tier.

Very true. I remember when I first got cable back in 1984 it was for one tv. I ran splitters to my other tvs and had cable running along my basement ceiling, into closets, etc.

A neighbor did the same. Then his cable went out and his wife called the cable co. The tech shows up, there are all these wires and splitters all over the place. The guy got busted by the cable co but good.

I was in public accounting at the time. One of my clients was, at the time, the country's largest cable provider. I got assigned to go on field audits with the cable co techs to see how they enforced various piracy rules. We looked at traps and taps, followed lines into people's homes.

Good times!

People have long viewed their monthly cable bill as paying for blanket home coveage. ... It has long been the desire of cable co's that users should pay a fee for every device that connects to their feed.It should be noted that it has always been their desire, and originally was the case. The problem was that they didn't have the technology to protect themselves against bypasses to the measures they applied. Cable-ready televisions undercut their ability to charge for additional outlets with analog service, so eventually that fee died out. Now, with digital, they will not only apply that model again, but now be able to protect their offering from being undercut.

1. When a cable company eliminates all analog service, they will be required to offer a digital limited basic package and leave that entire tier unscrambled. Just like Comcast leaves lifeline cable completely in-the-clear QAM here in Burlington.

The 1993 cable act prohibited cable systems from charging extra for additional sets connected to the limited basic tier.Yes, I don't think we'll see additional outlet charges for lifeline digital cable customers unless they rent a box. It is really only the lifeline analog cable customers who have to worry about that; they may face the choice of buying QAM tuners (on their own dime -- no coupons) or renting boxes and perhaps paying additional outlet charges. I tend to think that cable companies will tread lightly with this, though, and not charge both, for these specific customers. Just my guess.

As metioned above, I called Cox here in New Orleans last Fall. I am already a Cox digital cable customer but was interested in buying the dual QAM tuner, dual cablecard Tivo HD. Of course, when I mentioned DVR the tech. gave me the spiel about the COX DVR. Not bad, but no archiving.

I mentioned the Tivo HD and then asked about pricing for multiple digital cable hookups; assuming a dual tuner with 2 cable cards would technically be 2 installs of digital cable. The tech said no, it would just be the same monthly fee for digital cable plus the rental fee for each cablecard, cable box or COX DVR. I was assuming they were trying to go back to the old days of charging for each analog drop. Cox even used to advertise, when digital cable first came out, that a digital cable install allowed you one digital cable hookup as well as the three analog cable hook ups, you were currently allowed, for FREE.

As you all discussed, I was pleasantly surprised. I remembered the time when they charged for each drop in your home; much like the phone company used to. Technically, I broke the law by splitting my drop to two VCRs (Beta & VHS) before ultimately going to our one TV. I never knew exactly why they stopped enforcing that but I always heard that customers splitting the cable lines themselves (and hiding it from the cable companies) was doing more harm than good to the overall signal quality.

However, since the tech also told me they were not phasing out analog cable here and I have seen their commercials to back up her statements; I decided to go with a dual tuner analog Series 2 Tivo for now. Although they seem to have backed off here for now, Cox used to run ads stating the need to free up analog space for more digital services. I know it is only a matter of time before analog is phased out. It's just that most of my current devices don't even have a QAM tuner much less a cablecard slot; and they are still hashing out cablecard technology. However, as long as they continue to be reasonable about things here, I'll be happy.:D

By law they cannot encrypt the local broadcast channels that one would receive via OTA. They can encrypt everything else. They will encrypt everything else. There is no reason for them to encrypt the channels other than control and profiteering.

People have long viewed their monthly cable bill as paying for blanket home coveage. Just like the phone service -- you pay a monthly fee and plug in as many phones as you have jacks and ringer equivalents. It has long been the desire of cable co's that users should pay a fee for every device that connects to their feed. They consider multiple household TV's connected to their cable to be a form of piracy. With encrypted digital cable they can now realize their desired business model. Because you will need their decryption hardware to view the signal they can now extract a service fee from you (in the form of STB rental) for every device you want to hook onto their cable.

That's fine and dandy, but if I'm going to have to pay for each outlet they better start improving what they offer because DirectV and Dish as well as U-verse is going to blow there asses out of the water with services they offer.

Reading deeper into the FCC documents (and I provide this link for you to to follow along: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-170A1.pdf) there are troubling details.

Paragraph 16: The requirement that cable companies either provide an analog signal or a converter box for "must-carry" broadcasters is only for 3 years after the Feb 2009 date for over the air transition.

Paragraphs 15 and 22: Appears to distinguish between "connections provided or connected by the cable company" and those that you create for yourself by splitting the signal. It would seem that only the primary connection you are paying for (and presumably others if you are paying an additional outlet fee) are entitled to a free converter box if the cable company has dropped analog channels. But, this converter box is not "required" to convert anything free beyond the "must-carry" stations.

Paragraph 26: Points out that most broadcaster's have switched away from "must carry" to "broadcast consent". So, most local stations may not even be covered by the requirement that they be provided free. I believe the difference here is that a station can waive its classification as a "must carry" station so that it can actually negotiate for payment from the cable company. Most network affiliates are getting compensated by the cable company now, so are no longer "must-carry" channels.

Paragraphs 15 and 22: Appears to distinguish between "connections provided or connected by the cable company" and those that you create for yourself by splitting the signal. It would seem that only the primary connection you are paying for (and presumably others if you are paying an additional outlet fee) are entitled to a free converter box if the cable company has dropped analog channels.Where did you see the word "free" in those paragraphs? The only use of the word in that context was in Adler's dissent, and even there, he said, "preferably for free". While I believe many MSOs will include the cost of one converter box in the basic fee, they are not obligated to do so.

Where did you see the word "free" in those paragraphs? The only use of the word in that context was in Adler's dissent, and even there, he said, "preferably for free". While I believe many MSOs will include the cost of one converter box in the basic fee, they are not obligated to do so.

The end of paragraph 18 is talking about cable operator's that go all-digital:
"In the alternative, operators may choose to operate “all-digital systems.” Under this option, operators will not be required to downconvert the
signal to analog, and may provide these stations only in a digital format. In any event, any downconversion costs will be borne by the operator."

In other words, a cable operator can choose to downconvert at the headend and provide analog signals, or downconvert at the end-users location to provide an analog signal. But, it seems that the intent of the FCC is that wherever the downconversion is done the costs will be borne by the operator.

That sounds like free to me! But, I'm sure the cable companies will find a way to wriggle out of it.

Yeah, I think you're reaching. I suspect the point of that sentence is to make it clear that the regulation does NOT place an additional burden on broadcasters, to provide both their standard fee AND a downconverted feed.

I have "Basic" cable (only OTA channels + TWC news). Through my cable, I only get a couple of the DTV/HDTV signals that are available OTA, although I get the anolog signals for the stations. I had thought that TWC (actually all cable companies) were required to allow all the local OTA signals through at the basic level (aka "lifeline") service.

When I called TWC-Raleigh, they tell me my only option if I want the DTV/HDTV on all the items is to upgrade to standard and then add the "Digital Servive":eek: (never mind the fact I pointed out I already have digital service (Hello, I pay you for a cable modem every month). I believe they said there is trap :confused:(since I only have the basic service) and it is not their problem if the signals they retransmit fall outside the range of signals for the DTV/HDTV stations. I like the basic service for the better (or is it, if I don't get all the OTA signals) signal, but really dont need the extra stations or want the extra cost. :(

What does the FCC say re: passing through at the basic level and what do I need to tell TWC if they are supposed to by contract or regulation required to give me access to the chanels?

MSOs have to provide the analog signal for broadcast local must-carry channels in the clear, for analog-only or dual-format analog/digital channels, and must provide the digital signal for broadcast local must-carry channels in the clear, for all-digital channels.

MSOs have to provide the analog signal for broadcast local must-carry channels in the clear, for analog-only or dual-format analog/digital channels, and must provide the digital signal for broadcast local must-carry channels in the clear, for all-digital channels.

I am not sure I understand this. If I have lifeline service from TWC, should TWC provide me with all of the broadcast channels (which they carry both in analog and digital) IN THE CLEAR? If so, can someone point me to the FCC regulation that I need to shove down TWC's throat?

If I have lifeline service from TWC, should TWC provide me with all of the broadcast channels (which they carry both in analog and digital) IN THE CLEAR?No. Simplifying things a bit: At this point, the requirement is that they carry the analog channel in-the-clear. After February 2009, the requirement is to carry the digital channel in-the-clear for what will then be digital-only channels.

Note: Please don't complain about minor inaccuracies in this message. My earlier message was fully accurate, but Eric said he didn't understand the accurate information so I reworded it more simply, but of course as a result you get less accuracy.