i'm using the channelmaster cm7000. great PQ, pretty sensitive, small close captioning, and i use S-video

From my understanding; the closer you are to the transmitter; there is a greater possibility of stronger "reflected" signals than areas that are further out.

The real advantage of bowtie antennas is their larger "capture area" to receive the weaker signals that tend to "scatter" more and more as they weaken. You have a much better chance of being in the "sweet spot" of more of your channels with the multiple bowties.

While the urban environment creates multi-path issues with full power, high signal strength stations, due to blockage and reflection within the typical urban setting, that is the multi-path environment that the ATSC tuners in the CECBs and latest HDTVs were designed to deal with. My Zenith DTT-900 does this very well. This IS NOT an environment for a highly directional antenna unless one is trying to NOT RECEIVE some of ones local channels.

You are correct, "The real advantage of bowtie antennas is their larger "capture area" to receive the weaker signals that tend to "scatter" more and more as they weaken." A high gain, highly directional antenna such as a multi-bay, bow-tie antenna like the CM4228, was designed to pick up those weaker signals from a low power or long distance source at which it is pointed, while either not receiving or receiving at very low gain, other channels on the same or adjacent frequencies from other directions.

> the urban environment creates multi-path issues with full power,
> high signal strength stations, due to blockage and reflection
> within the typical urban setting, that is the multi-path
> environment that the ATSC tuners in the CECBs and latest HDTVs
> were designed to deal with.

Unfortunately, they aren't good enough yet. :-(

> My Zenith DTT-900 does this very well.

You are lucky. Either your DTT-900 happens to handle the
particular problems you have, or you are not very demanding.

> This IS NOT an environment for a highly directional antenna

Yes it is. A highly directional antenna will provide a higher
ratio of desired to undesired signal. This is ALWAYS better,
regardless of analog or digital, or which tuner you have,
which demodulator chip you have, etc.

The ONLY time a less directional antenna *might* be preferred
is if you have transmitters in multiple directions and you
want to try to get both with a single antenna. And then
you need to be aware that you are sacrificing performance
for convenience.

The real question is 8-bay (8800/4228/db8) vs yagi (xg91).
I think the main difference is the side lobes and nulls.
Try one, if it doesn't work well try one from the other camp.
Or try a different tuner and/or different demod chip.

BTW, this is supposed to be a thread about CECBs. The antenna
thread is down the hall:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

I thought this thread was supposed to be about CECB box comparisons, not antenna and/or pre-amp comparisons.

There are reception and local OTA threads for that other stuff.

IMO Maybe not the detail but regular mention of these other factors is important for newbies. They need to be aware there are more reasons other then their new CECB for the crap/nothing they suddenly might see in the new digital world.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about CECB box comparisons, not antenna and/or pre-amp comparisons.

There are reception and local OTA threads for that other stuff.True, but any time or place inaccuracies are stated; they should be addressed; and corrected. Isn't that what we're here for?:)

I've just discovered something about my Zenith DTT900 that I'm not too happy about and I would like to know from others if their CECB's behave the same. The setup is as follows: I have the Zenith feeding into a Panasonic E-85 DVD recorder via composite input, The E-85 feeds into a Panasonic plasma via component input (progressive). The E-85 is configured to output to a 16:9 display. The Zenith is also set up to output to a 16:9 display.

Here is what I find: when the Zenith is set up for 16:9 display, it's zoom button no longer functions. A press on the zoom displays a message that the aspect ratio cannot be changed. So, if I tune a digital channel that is broadcasting in widescreen, everything is fine and the picture on the plasma is displayed properly. If however, I tune a digital channel that is broadcasting a 4:3 image, the Zenith outputs the 4:3 in a pillar-boxed 16:9 frame. Since it's already a 16:9 frame the plasma can't do anything to stretch it and fill the screen. What bugs me is that I can't change the aspect ratio at the Zenith because the zoom button doesn't work when it is set up for 16:9 display. I should note the E-85 plays no part in this, it just passes through whatever frame the Zenith sends it.

Are other models behaving the same way?

IMO Maybe not the detail but regular mention of these other factors is important for newbies. They need to be aware there are more reasons other then their new CECB for the crap/nothing they suddenly might see in the new digital world.It also wouldn't hurt some of these newbies to venture out of this sub-forum once in awhile. ;)

Just tryin' to keep the thread on topic. Mentioning it, or answering one question about it is one thing, but when it gets into a derailed, 2 page long, off-topic discussion, that's a different thing.

Are other models behaving the same way?Many, if not most, do. At least the CECB boxes.

I believe the Samsung DTB-H260F is the same way. My Sony DVR can adjust each channel separately every which way imaginable for either display ratio. But for that price, it ought to be able to do that.

Maybe set the Zenith to 4:3 and always adjust at TV? I have to do that anywayon my Toshiba plasma since my local DTV is mixed 4:3 & 16x9.

as I noted before, in a multi-path environment with high signal strength (if you had this why would you use a high gain antenna in the first place), the CM4228's secondary lobes could contribute to multi-path and the XG91 has miniscule secondary lobes, so it would likely not be affected. I get lots of ghosting on my 4228. I use it because although I have strong signals (20 miles) I also have weak signals (40-60 miles) that rabbit ears can not get.

It also wouldn't hurt some of these newbies to venture out of this sub-forum once in awhile. ;)

Just tryin' to keep the thread on topic. Mentioning it, or answering one question about it is one thing, but when it gets into a derailed, 2 page long, off-topic discussion, that's a different thing.


I agree, as I said not the detail. Usually I point them to tvfool. I haven't seen much about the lack of attention and or investment by the broadcast stations themselves but that would be covered in local broadcast threads.:)

I'd like to offer my comparison between the CM-7000 and the Zenith DTT901. I got the CM-7000 a little over a month ago, just before my coupon expired. I had actually wanted the 901, but they were hard to locate at that time (none locally), and since my TV has an S-VHS input I decided to get the CM-7000 from Summit Source.

...<snip>

Possibly with a good line-of-sight situation and a larger size TV the CM-7000 would be exactly the right CECB for somebody, but for my situation the Zenith DTT901 is is a much better fit.

Thank you! Just what I was looking for. :)

They're probably the two best boxes, and also have their faults, just like all the others. If you have two coupons I usually suggest getting one of each.

However, you really can't go wrong with two of either one. Or one of either one.

Didn't I read something recently about the recent release of an updated DTVPal converter box?

You're probably thinking of the DTVPal Plus. It's supposed to have a more sensitive, silicon tuner.

I don't think much else is known about it at this point.

(There's a thread here for it - if you can find it amongst all the other scads of DTVPal/TR-40 threads.)

Sansonic and Lasonic also use Microtune MT2131 "silicon tuner" chip.
Most reports say they are LESS sensitive......

That would be hilarious, if the $80 DTVPal Plus didn't receive as well as the $40 TR40 box.

Philip

Sansonic and Lasonic also use Microtune MT2131 "silicon tuner" chip.
Most reports say they are LESS sensitive......Dish just says it has a more sensitive tuner. Some people here assumed it was the silicon one on their own.

Guess I shouldn't believe stuff I read here so unquestionably. Think I would know better than that when it comes to this sub-forum by now. ;) My own fault.

Dish may be doing a cost reduction redesign for the DTVPal Plus. It happens all the time, come out with a new model, with some new features, that costs less to make and raise the MSRP.

I think my Zinwell ZAT-970A has this silicon tuner, yet it finds less stations than my Insignia -APT or my APEX boxes (DT250 & DT502).

Sansonic and Lasonic also use Microtune MT2131 "silicon tuner" chip.
Most reports say they are LESS sensitive......

Hollands, I'm not seeing the Dish TR-40 CRA anywhere on your updated chart. Am I just missing it or have you not yet added it?

Here is a photo of the board inside the TR-40 CRA.

I think my Zinwell ZAT-970A has this silicon tuner, yet it finds less stations than my Insignia -APT or my APEX boxes (DT250 & DT502). Ditto. There must be additional losses somewhere else in the box which causes weak stations to "disappear".

Hollands, I'm not seeing the Dish TR-40 CRA anywhere on your updated chart. Am I just missing it or have you not yet added it?

Here is a photo of the board inside the TR-40 CRA.

Your photo is a little too large for my screen...

on my cell phone :rolleyes:

Your photo is a little too large for my screen...

on my cell phone :rolleyes:

Here is a link to the page where I saw the photo in the first place.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=29630&d=1222477752

BTW, over in that Satelliteguys thread, someone claims to have verified that the circuit boards and components in the Dish TR-40 CRA are exactly the same, including tuner, as the Dish DTVPal (i.e., a Thompson DTT76809), but not the same as the Dish DTVPal Plus, which has the MicroTune tuner (Dish charges a premium for the DTVPal Plus based on the "more sensitive" MicroTune tuner).

So I'm thoroughly confused. Is the silicon based MicroTune tuner really more sensitive or is it just supposed to be and in the real world it is less sensitive? Hollands?

Not so much a comparison as a commentary:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTSS8E7bKXg&fmt=18

Not so much a comparison as a commentary:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTSS8E7bKXg&fmt=18

Dang! That was funny!

I'ld send it to my folks, but they would think I was making fun of them ...

Not so much a comparison as a commentary:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTSS8E7bKXg&fmt=18

It's as simple as that. Priceless!

ROTFLMAO, love where it shows the old lady in a hard hat by the ladder and satellite dish.

Dang! That was funny!

I'ld send it to my folks, but they would think I was making fun of them ...

I sent it to mine, go for it. :)

I just picked up a Zenith DTT901. I have been running a DTT900 for some months now and I'll give my impressions of the 901 vs the 900. By the way the 901 was manuf July 2008. I won't bother with cosmetics like the different vent holes etc.. The 901 didn't scan as many channels as the 900 but it seems to lock them better. I scanned the full 360degs with my antenna rotor and the 901 found 2 or 3 less channels (about 30, not counting subs) than did the 900. The ones not scanned were fringe to say the least so maybe not so surprising. However, there are far fewer breakups with the 901 and the picture seems somewhat brighter. I won't comment on the "audio" issue as I've never experienced it. Another interesting point is the way each unit reacts to my distribution booster. The 900, on several channels, exhibits a steady blooming in the background of the screen image with the booster running and the 901 does not. I'm very pleased with the 901. Just food for thought. :)

I just picked up a Zenith DTT901. I have been running a DTT900 for some months now and I'll give my impressions of the 901 vs the 900. By the way the 901 was manuf July 2008. I won't bother with cosmetics like the different vent holes etc.. The 901 didn't scan as many channels as the 900 but it seems to lock them better. I scanned the full 360degs with my antenna rotor and the 901 found 2 or 3 less channels (about 30, not counting subs) than did the 900. The ones not scanned were fringe to say the least so maybe not so surprising. However, there are far fewer breakups with the 901 and the picture seems somewhat brighter. I won't comment on the "audio" issue as I've never experienced it. Another interesting point is the way each unit reacts to my distribution booster. The 900, on several channels, exhibits a steady blooming in the background of the screen image with the booster running and the 901 does not. I'm very pleased with the 901. Just food for thought. :)

Did your 900 have an LG tuner? If so, I'm surprised you are seeing any difference in reception or PQ.

The 901 didn't scan as many channels as the 900 but it seems to lock them better.Give it a couple days. Reception can change form minute to minute; especially with any tropo conditions. I have 2 -900's & 1-901 and can't detect any difference in reception or PQ. They are both excellent performers.

Walmart and Best Buy are getting some RCA ANT2000 Smart Antennas in stock:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008952&page=2

It only works with those CECBs with EIA/CEA-909 Smart Antenna Control I/F.
And the earlier Sylvania 6900STB Hi-Rez ATSC Receiver....

Walmart and Best Buy are getting some RCA ANT2000 Smart Antennas in stock:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008952&page=2

But the RCA Smart Antenna would be useless with the DTT900/901 CECB, correct?

Correct, but that wasn't directed toward you guys specifically. It was just a general announcement, because quite a few people on this sub-forum have been waiting for them to start showing up in the stores.

Shouldn't that be it's own thread?

If you want to discuss details yes. But the fact given is of general interest here, though not to me personally.

"CECB Features List - 15Oct2008" spread sheet update is attached.
If you don't have Excel capability, download a free viewer from Microsoft:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post13373061
See "LINKS" sheet to navigate to source of information.

Do any of the converter boxes have surround sound output?

Yes.

All of them (as far as I know). They all convert the Dolby Digital 5.1 to Dolby Surround 4.1 and output it via the stereo jacks.

You sure? I don't think any of them do Pro Logic. I think it's just Dolby 2.0.

All of the spec sheets I've found so far online have been limited to 2 channel stereo. To support surround I believe the box would need an optical output jack.

By Law, none of the Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes (CECB) may have Optical/Coax
Digital Audio and hence can not output true discrete DD5.1.

However, the Stereo output WILL be encoded with Dolby Pro Logic surround sound
if the original program was encoded in Dolby Pro Logic (straight Stereo passthru).

If original program is DD5.1 encoded, "downmixing" algorithms defined in
ATSC A/52 are used to derive the Stereo output, wherein a portion of the
Center and Surround channel appear in L and R outputs (SW is optional).
Since it does NOT replicate what a Dolby Pro Logic encoder does
(e.g NO 90 degree phase shift), the resultant surround outputs are...
something resembling, but not exactly replicating the original....

FYI: Avion ATB-7707 CECB claims to provide SRS TruSurround XT
processing, which usually means taking a Stereo input and synthesizing
a fakey "surround effect" on top of the Stereo output. Many TVs and
most AV Receivers already have 2IN:2OUT "matrix" capabilities:
http://www.pag-asia.com/about.html
http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=2259
http://www.srslabs.com/partners/sstech/trusurroundxt.asp
Of course, an AVR with 5.1 speakers and Dolby Pro Logic decoder
would provide an even better surround sound.

============================
There are a few (low-rez, non-CECB) OTA SD-STB with Optical/Coax Audio for true DD5.1.
See last category in CECB FEATURE LIST (below) for non-CECB boxes.

There are also several (hi-rez) OTA HD-STB receivers. See "Over The Air DTV" in fol. list:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095T

Hmmm. That's disconcerting. It may or may not be Dolby Pro-logic. Great.

Bottom Line:

If you want true HD with true Dolby Surround (either pro-logic or DD5.1), and no annoying dropouts, then buy your favorite shows/movies on Bluray.

If you want true HD with true Dolby Surround (either pro-logic or DD5.1), and no annoying dropouts, then buy your favorite shows/movies on Bluray.

Or buy an HD box. You will pay more and won't be able to use your government coupon, but it will support HD and should have a digital audio output.

Give it a couple days. Reception can change form minute to minute; especially with any tropo conditions. I have 2 -900's & 1-901 and can't detect any difference in reception or PQ. They are both excellent performers.

Same here w/ 2 901s & 2 900s.-both excellent performers.

Or buy an HD box. You will pay more and won't be able to use your government coupon, but it will support HD and should have a digital audio output. Assuming that the broadcaster properly encodes DD5.1 (many don't), or that the picture is actually HD instead of a pixelated mess because the station is trying to stream 3 or 4 subchannels.

Second digital rules and electrictroy. There are many more variables in DTV, especially during transition, INCLUDING the broadcasters. Be triple careful before you blame any one piece of equipment. Been There, Done That

Second digital rules and electrictroy. There are many more variables in DTV, especially during transition, INCLUDING the broadcasters. Be triple careful before you blame any one piece of equipment. Been There, Done That

For sure. At least some of my local stations (haven't taken the time to check w/ all of them) aren't broadcasting digital at full power yet, & won't until the changeover. So I'm hoping I'll be receiving better pictures then.

Your local broadcast thread here on AVS is very helpful in determining if you are the only one having a particular problem with reception. Mine is mostly cable users and I am OTA only but if we all have the same problem ...

For sure. At least some of my local stations aren't broadcasting digital at full power yet, & won't until the changeover. Urban legend. Nearly-all stations are broadcasting at the full power the FCC has allotted them for the 1999-2008 timeframe.

The biggest change on February 18 won't be the power, but the channel. Many UHF stations are moving to VHF, and vice-versa. The wavelength has a bigger impact on reception than power levels (VHF travels farther).

Urban legend. Nearly-all stations are broadcasting at the full power the FCC has allotted them for the 1999-2008 timeframe.

The biggest change on February 18 won't be the power, but the channel. Many UHF stations are moving to VHF, and vice-versa. The wavelength has a bigger impact on reception than power levels (VHF travels farther).

This is not urban legend.

I agree that most stations are broadcasting at the full power that the FCC has currently allotted them. However, many of them are required to use a directional antenna to protect a broadcast in a neighboring market. Many of the stations that will be changing channels are doing so in part to get a better coverage pattern. Also, many stations have recently applied to increase their power after the shutdown and the FCC is reviewing these applications.

Urban legend. Nearly-all stations are broadcasting at the full power the FCC has allotted them for the 1999-2008 timeframe.

No, the "urban legend" is that it currently is as good as it is going to get in all major markets.

Your statement is mostly true only because you used 2008 rather than 2009 in the timeframe. Many stations will implement a significant increase in FCC authorized ERP (Effective Radiated Power) on the changeover date (2/17/09). They are currently limited due to regulations controlling the total RF radiation allowed from a given point source. Since many stations are broadcasting their DTV signal from the same location (same tower in some cases) as they broadcast their analog TV signal, they are limited by an RF radiation cap.

Other stations have set up interim, low power, DTV broadcasting from different locations than they use for analog TV broadcasts. Many of those stations intend to move to their analog towers for post-transition broadcasting, so they aren't investing in equipment at these interim locations to reach their post-transition allowed ERP.

After Feb 18, 2009 most will be "jumping channels" to a brand-new allocations. So you can't accurately compare before-and-after power levels for those stations. In Lancaster PA, of those stations remaining on the same channel, NONE are changing their power levels. They are already broadcasting at full strength (tvfool.com data):

CALL POWER (dBm)
---- BEFORE AFTER 2/17
WPMT -33.0 -33.0
WLYH -34.8 -34.8
WGCB -35.7 -35.7
WITF -57.4 -57.4
WTVE -70.9 -70.9
-KYW -79.4 -79.4
WPSG -90.4 -90.4
WTXF -90.5 -90.5
WNUV -91.2 -91.2
WGTW -91.7 -91.7 I agree that most stations are broadcasting at the full power that the FCC has currently allotted them. Then we agree. Digital stations are currently at the full-power the FCC allows for the 1999-2008 time period. And of those that are keeping their same channels, almost-all of them are already at their full power. The idea that DTV reception will experience huge improvements after 2/17 is an urban legend that has grown-up, but the facts do not support it. Neither does TVfool's "before/after" published report (+0.8 digital channels). Also, many stations have recently applied to increase their power after the shutdown and the FCC is reviewing these applications. Good! Because the ways things look now for post-2/17, I'm not happy with the weak power levels.

electrictroy,

I've already posted about this, as a response to other posts where you've made this exact same statement. Just because stations in your DMA area are not adjusting power, doesn't mean that many other DMA's are the same.

I actually covered 3 DMAs in my post - Lancaster-Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. And I will continue saying "most stations are already at max power" until somebody can provide proof of the opposite (most stations are Not at max power).

Do you have proof that most stations are using less than max?
Or are you just stating your Belief?

Also, I have tvfool backing me up. In their nationwide study, the pre-switch and post-switch number of DTV channels only increased by 0.8 (on average). That's it. We shouldn't be misleading people new visitors like TrinaTrina to think everything will just magically fix itself after 2/17.

Good! Because the ways things look now for post-2/17, I'm not happy with the weak power levels.


Using www.fccinfo.com (http://www.fccinfo.com/), I discovered that of the stations you listed, the following have applied for an increase in power:


WITF has applied to increase 50 kW to 140 kW
WPSG has applied to increase 250 kW to 800 kW
WTXF has applied for a less directional signal and higher elevation (though lower ERP)

We shouldn't be misleading people new visitors like TrinaTrina to think everything will just magically fix itself after 2/17.

I'm not trying to mislead anyone or giving any impression that "everything will just magically fix itself."

I will continually refer inquiries to the proper information (ie. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html or http://www.tvfool.com/).

As an example of the variety of changes occurring post-transition, see the following for the current plans for metro-Denver, CO:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14810846#post14810846

I'm happy to see all these pending changes, but remember they are only pending. The FCC might still decide to reject them (especially if they want to make room for whitespace-enabled Ipods).

My, my, this topic has turned hot! Just to clear things up, I'm not all that new here, though I'm not a terribly regular poster. When I was doing extensive research a few months ago, I first came here (among many other sites) looking for all the comparative info I could find, subjective & otherwise, on the various CECB offerings, prior to making a purchase. I have been to TVFool on more than one occasion - I do thank Roger for giving the link to www.fccinfo.com - that has some useful supplemental info & hadn't heard of that site before.

Doubtless, some of us will see changes; others won't, and those who do will see varying levels of improvement (I hope improvement rather than otherwise). Most of my channels consistently are coming-in well already. There are a couple that have been rather inconsistent (somewhat erratic in my reception & some pixelation/audio problems) & they were my main concern. It does appear now that there will be some improvement in those channels, though they're not going to the kind of power I'd like to see from them (as compared to some of my other local channels), but that's life. Unfortunately, with those channels, it would appear from currently available data that they're not making any particularly pertinent changes in actual transmitting channel or transmitter location either.

Well, we'll see how it looks in 2009. Currently, for the most part I'm pleased with the OTA reception I'm getting, and, aside from the pixelation issues, the dtv picture is a definite improvement on most channels from analog.

My, my, this topic has turned hot! Just to clear things up, I'm not all that new here, though I'm not a terribly regular poster. When I was doing extensive research a few months ago, I first came here (among many other sites) looking for all the comparative info I could find, subjective & otherwise, on the various CECB offerings, prior to making a purchase. I have been to TVFool on more than one occasion - I do thank Roger for giving the link to www.fccinfo.com - that has some useful supplemental info & hadn't heard of that site before.

Doubtless, some of us will see changes; others won't, and those who do will see varying levels of improvement (I hope improvement rather than otherwise). Most of my channels consistently are coming-in well already. There are a couple that have been rather inconsistent (somewhat erratic in my reception & some pixelation/audio problems) & they were my main concern. It does appear now that there will be some improvement in those channels, though they're not going to the kind of power I'd like to see from them (as compared to some of my other local channels), but that's life. Unfortunately, with those channels, it would appear from currently available data that they're not making any particularly pertinent changes in actual transmitting channel or transmitter location either.

Well, we'll see how it looks in 2009. Currently, for the most part I'm pleased with the OTA reception I'm getting, and, aside from the pixelation issues, the dtv picture is a definite improvement on most channels from analog.

There are so many variables that one will just have to wait until next February to see what actual reception will be for any given station. Elevation of the broadcast antenna on the tower can affect signal as much as ERP or VHF-vs-UHF for a given reception point. Then there is the type, size, polarization, and direction of the antenna used in the final DTV broadcast arrangement. Again factors as significant as ERP.

I think that every station and the FCC plan that post-transition will be an improvement over current for the many stations that aren't already at their post-transition configuration. Whether that is true or not, IMHO, won't be known until post-transition. Computer models are only accurate up to a point, then real-world factors take over.

^^+1

I think that every station and the FCC plan that post-transition will be an improvement over current for the many stations that aren't already at their post-transition configuration. Whether that is true or not, IMHO, won't be known until post-transition. Well tvfool.org is only predicting one more DTV channel pre- and post-transition. Some will actually receive less channels. Not exactly exciting news.

Also: Whitespace Ipod-like devices are likely to make reception even worse (if approved for use). The National Association of Broadcasters is now reporting that: "Such a device would interfere with digital television signals when the viewer is 25 miles from the television tower and the whitespace device is 40 feet or less from the TV set.

"At 50 miles from the television tower, a whitespace device within 160 feet from a set could cause interference."

According to that, at 75 miles (which is where deep fringe and extreme fringe ranges) a "Whitespace" device within 640' will be an issue. I believe that would be overly conservative.

0.4 microwatts is how much power your TV antenna would receive from a Whitespace device at that range. That's enough to drown-out a 75 mile-range TV signal.

White Space Device discussion belongs in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048951&page=3

BTW: To prevent interference to CABLE, in-home devices should not radiate
more than about 5 mW EIRP (includes antenna gain)...refer to both OET reports.
(Ditto those older SAT systems still using TV Band for coax downlead from dish.)

5 mW EIPR might be barely enough to get to your in-home node, which would
have to use an outdoor, directional antenna (with perhaps slightly higher EIRP)
to talk back to the 4W EIRP neighborhood broadband node....
Many will be pointed in a DIFFERENT direction...oh, no, TWO high gain UHF antennas...
Alternatively, reverse link could use 700 MHz (ex-Ch52-69) and/or CellPhone bands.

There are THREE situations to consider: in-home (e.g. 5 mW vs 40/100 mW),
home rooftop with directional antenna and local broadband node (4W EIRP omni proposed).
To prevent desensitizing TV reception, they may have to use lower power,
meaning a broadband node every so-many light posts vice a handful per city.

These implications are not obvious, since IEEE-STD-802.22 has not been readily
available...and seems to talk to what "could" be implemented vice a particular scheme.

BTW: To prevent interference to CABLE, in-home devices should not radiate
more than about 5 mW EIRP (includes antenna gain)...refer to both OET reports.
(Ditto those older SAT systems still using TV Band for coax downlead from dish.)

And the newer dual tuner Dish satellite HDTV receivers that use the TV Band to distribute the "second" signal (SD) from the receiver to a SDTV.

Not just HD models -there's also a 322 dual-tuner all-SD Dish model.

CECB with APT is ideal choice for use with my son's Dish analog "house" feed.
Esp. since numerous local digital channels are still missing via SAT.

Thanks to holl_ands for the comparison chart of boxes- a nice piece of work
that I found very useful. I especially like the fact that the date of update is
clearly noted.
John

And the newer dual tuner Dish satellite HDTV receivers that use the TV Band to distribute the "second" signal (SD) from the receiver to a SDTV.

I think one of the DirecTV dishes used the TV band for downlink from one of the LNBs, I read that was why you could not use a diplexer with that system.

Dish Pro simplified Multiswitch problem by outputting TWO frequency
bands, but they're high enough they do NOT overlap the TV band,
so you can continue to use simple SAT/TV Diplexers.

DirecTV's new AT9 Dish (for new MPEG4 systems) simplifies Multiswitch
by outputting TWO frequency bands, but one overlaps the TV band:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=630511

"The B-Band converter is used with the AT9 to pass the Ka-LO band
(250-750MHz) signals. A diplexer can NOT be used with this setup,
due to the UHF frequencies used."

Here's how to get around the pesky shared downlead problem (maybe):
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62299

VCR/DVR Timer boxes

- Zinwell ZAT - reception is not as good as the Zenith or CM7000, but it's adequate. The manual clock is accurate, and the timer programs fire consistently. Plus it runs nice-and-cool with a stylish design.

- DTVenemy / TR40-CRAP - only gets one-half as many channels as either the Zenith or CM7000. It's not user friendly. The clock is never correct. The timers are unreliable. Hence the alternate naming I have used.

- APEX DT502 - Not tested yet.

I posted DTA-5000 vs RCA ANT2000 Smart Antenna test as well as
comparisons for three controlling CECBs in the Smart Antenna thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14996150
Keep checking for additional test data....

My favorite is Tivax STB-T8 (with APT) vice Apex DT502 or (boo hiss) RCA DTA-800B1.

Friday, I was in the KMart on 2151 North Main street, Longmont CO.
They had:
Magnavox TB100MG9 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt)
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG
DTVPal

The Radio Shack in Twin Peaks Mall is selling:
DigitalStream DTX9950 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt);8hrEPG
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG

Now, I wonder if any store, nearby is selling the Zinwell ZAT?

Friday, I was in the KMart on 2151 North Main street, Longmont CO.
They had:
Magnavox TB100MG9 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt)
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG
DTVPal

The Radio Shack in Twin Peaks Mall is selling:
DigitalStream DTX9950 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt);8hrEPG
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG

Now, I wonder if any store, nearby is selling the Zinwell ZAT?

I purchased my Zinwell ZAT-970A at the photo/video counter in a local Albertsons grocery store. It was $49.99, $9.99 with the NTIA coupon. I am in Portland Oregon.

I purchased my Zinwell ZAT-970A at the photo/video counter in a local Albertsons grocery store. It was $49.99. I am in Portland Oregon.I saw it in the comparable place at two formerly Albertson's locations.  That was a surprise, as Albertson's had sold this chain in 2006, long before CECBs came to market.  A third location did not have them.

Albertson's owns Jewel Foods, right? We only have Jewel/Osco around here. I wonder if they're selling it?

Albertson's owns Jewel Foods, right? We only have Jewel/Osco around here. I wonder if they're selling it?
Albertson's sold the Jewel-Osco stores in metropolitan Chicago to SuperValu and the standalone Osco Drug locations to CVS over two years ago, but Jewel is indeed where I saw Zinwells, both in Evanston Center (970A's, 970's, and 957's, but at my last visit there were no more 957's) and in Village Crossing (970's and 970A's).  The Jewel in North Mayfair Commons did not have any CECBs.  Maybe we should continue this in the Chicago OTA thread, though.

No need. I'll just check the Jewels around here.

It's probably good to at least bring it up here, or in the Zinwell thread, so people know they sell them.

Thanks.

Notice that I added a ZAT-970A photo to my earlier post. That shows my sales receipt as Albertsons (grocery) and Save On (pharmacy). Perhaps Save On may have the Zinwell as well.

I have a 12 volt TV in my motor home. Is there a 12 volt converter box on the market? If not, how many watts of power will a Zenith DTT-901 or a CM-7000 use with an inverter?
Thanks

The 901 consumes 7 watts.
The 7000 uses 6.

I have a 12 volt TV in my motor home. Is there a 12 volt converter box on the market? If not, how many watts of power will a Zenith DTT-901 or a CM-7000 use with an inverter?
Thanks

Zentech and Artec are the only boxes that use 12V. You can get DC to DC converters to change the 12V to the 5V, 6.5V or 9V that the other boxes that use DC have.

Look here:
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Additional_Features_Matrix.html

If you have a cigarette lighter or a 12-volt power jack on your dashboard, an adaptor plug would give you what you need for a 12-volt DC TV tuner. Voltage up-converters to 120-volt AC, use a lot of battery power, so getting one of the 12-volt tuners would be an advantage.

I have a 12 volt TV in my motor home. Is there a 12 volt converter box on the market? If not, how many watts of power will a Zenith DTT-901 or a CM-7000 use with an inverter?
Thanks
Energy Star Rated CECBs draw no more than 8 watts when ON and 1 watt STANDBY:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=dta.pr_dta
Click "Product List" PDF or XLS on right side of screen.
Non-Energy Star Rated CECBs might draw a few watts more....

Be very careful connecting directly to a car/RV battery. It normally runs at
about 14.5 volts, but can run a couple volts above (and several below).
Unless the converter box specs specifically say it is intended for operation
under the extremes of car/RV battery voltage, use a DC/AC Inverter instead.

My signature line has link to CECB Features spread sheet....

Thank you for your help!

The Sunkey SK-801ATSC also uses 12 volts. Both the Artec and Sunkey come with 12 volt regulated wall warts.

Philip

Does anyone have any experience with the Artec T3AP? I am considering it for my motor home. Who carries them? Are they capable of adding a channel and can you control the TV on-off, volume with the remote?

Artec thread here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1013420

The 901 consumes 7 watts.
The 7000 uses 6.

The Zenith DTT901 in EnergyStar testing was 3.9W on, and 0.6W standby. The CM7000 either didn't apply for EnergyStar compliance or didn't qualify.

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/prod_lists/DTAs_prod_list.pdf

The FCC can't be bothered to find a DTV system that
works, or to properly test WSD, but it has plenty
of money to burn to make us painfully aware of it's
bad decisions. Literally up in flames.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081110/tv_nm/us_fcc_digitalcrash

The FCC can't be bothered to find a DTV system that
works, or to properly test WSD, but it has plenty
of money to burn to make us painfully aware of it's
bad decisions. Literally up in flames.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081110/tv_nm/us_fcc_digitalcrash

So you're saying there will be a analog-to-DTV bailout plan too? ;)

I never received my two coupons ordered 1/1/08 and was denied every appeal I made. <GRUMBLE...No provision for mishandling by USPS> :(

"Some sets may need an extra antennae..."

???? :)
(pl. -nae either of a pair of movable sense organs on the head of an insect, crab, etc.; feeler.)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081110/tv_nm/us_fcc_digitalcrash

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/20/fccs-race-car-to-promote-digital-tv-hits-the-wall/

0 for 2. Or maybe 2 for 2 given the way Kevin Martin looks things. Watch out for those FCC snipers.

I have been following these forums almost all of this year.

This has included watching comments about
the DTVPal... and
the Zinwell ZAT...

Has any one found a real working solution with any CECB setup to automatically record, on a VCR, Over The Air programs for later viewing?

The only known CECB solutions are the DTVPal & Zinwell ZAT-970A with timers or the APEX DT502 using the EPG (box needs to be left "ON").

All three units have time issues. There are work arounds.

Has any one found a real working solution with any CECB setup to automatically record, on a VCR, Over The Air programs for later viewing?I'm doing it just fine with a Zinwell ZAT-970A and an NTSC-only VCR.

FYI: Centronics ZAT-502 on sale for $59.95 at Summit Source:
http://www.summitsource.com/centronics-zat-502-hd-terrestrial-digital-atsc-receiver-tv-tuner-supports-hdmi-output-true-hd-signal-quality-for-hd-ready-tv-high-definition-television-home-antenna-signal-aerial-reception-part-zat502hd-p-8167.html

Since it is a true Hi-Def receiver, it is NOT eligible for NTIA coupon discount.
Includes Optical Digital Audio I/F, S-Video, Component Video & HDMI.

Here is the Centronics ZAT-501/502 thread for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858602

FYI: Centronics ZAT-502 on sale for $59.95 at Summit Source:
http://www.summitsource.com/centronics-zat-502-hd-terrestrial-digital-atsc-receiver-tv-tuner-supports-hdmi-output-true-hd-signal-quality-for-hd-ready-tv-high-definition-television-home-antenna-signal-aerial-reception-part-zat502hd-p-8167.html

Since it is a true Hi-Def receiver, it is NOT eligible for NTIA coupon discount.
Includes Optical Digital Audio I/F, S-Video, Component Video & HDMI.

Here is the Centronics ZAT-501/502 thread for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858602

Also available at Solid Signal for $59.99:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ZAT502HD

I just got a DTT901, tried it & it works quite nicely.

It does not have an S-Video like the CM-7000, but the picture quality is still very good. I would have to do an A-B comparison to see if the CM-7000’s S-Video makes any noticeable difference. Anyway the DTT901 puts out a very nice picture via the composite output.

Most channels had the signal strength meter almost all the way to max using the antenna in my attic.

After I set my HDTV to “Full” all the channels displayed with their proper aspect ratios. I don’t have the CM-7000 currently hooked up, but I seem to recall I sometimes had to change its zoom settings in order to properly fill out and/or display the correct aspect ratio.

The DTT901 has a higher audio output level & I liked its user interface better. The CM-7000 has a more comprehensive channel guide.

Picture quality is the most important feature to me. Since both units display a good picture, at this point I would choose the DDT901 because I do not have to fiddle with zoom ratios when changing channels. Also it was only $9.99 at Kmart after the coupon & they did not charge any tax, plus it comes with the a/v cables. I also think the unit itself looks nicer than the CM-7000, but of course that‘s a personal preference. I will have to play some more with the CM-7000, but for now my vote would go to the DDT901.

If any one knows of a national 'brick and mortar' 'chain' store selling Zinwell ZAT-950A or ZAT-970A could you please post the name of the store and what state it is in?

See the associated threads.

I have a 12 volt TV in my motor home. Is there a 12 volt converter box on the market? If not, how many watts of power will a Zenith DTT-901 or a CM-7000 use with an inverter?
Thanks

Black and Decker makes a nice SMALL 100w inverter with one AC outlet AND a USB out for charging your iPOD, etc via USB cable.....It costs me about $20 and is VERY clean RF wise (no detectable RF noise)....should be perfect for any DTV box.

What kind of inside Antanna would work good up here in Caroline County? I have a friend that has a old outside Antanna and need a new Antanna and is going to get a inside Antanna, he has a lot of trees around his home...

If someone could let me know as soon as possible that would be good, we try to use his old Antanna but it did not work to good...

Depends upon your distance to the transmitting towers. VHF-Low in most markets is becoming obsolete. Most DTV stations will be operating between 7-51 (VHF-High/UHF).

I live around 40 miles from Richmond

At 40 miles, your best reception will be with an outside antenna mounted at least 35' off the ground. Since there are trees to contend with, I'd get an antenna that is rated for 60 miles to overcome the UHF loss, due to those trees.

At 40 miles, your best reception will be with an outside antenna mounted at least 35' off the ground. Since there are trees to contend with, I'd get an antenna that is rated for 60 miles to overcome the UHF loss, due to those trees.

AND add a Channel Master CM7777 amp at the antenna....IF the trees are close in to your house (IE: 50-100ft away and thick), RF ground for UHF starts at the TOP of the trees.....Pine trees are the worst.....they cause the most attenuation of UHF signals..
I am in typical suburbia and have trees around me but over 100ft away and they are mostly across the street in the direction of the local towers...with my RS VX-90 I have and a CM7777 at 20ft, I can watch a HD-VHF 7 50+ miles away to the east (with no trees in the immediate way) with pretty good reception....I plan to increase to 60ft with a ROHN 25G tower down the road...

FYI: Centronics ZAT-502 on sale for $59.95 at Summit Source:
http://www.summitsource.com/centronics-zat-502-hd-terrestrial-digital-atsc-receiver-tv-tuner-supports-hdmi-output-true-hd-signal-quality-for-hd-ready-tv-high-definition-television-home-antenna-signal-aerial-reception-part-zat502hd-p-8167.html

Since it is a true Hi-Def receiver, it is NOT eligible for NTIA coupon discount.
Includes Optical Digital Audio I/F, S-Video, Component Video & HDMI.

Here is the Centronics ZAT-501/502 thread for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858602

I ordered the Hisense DB-2010 off of Ebay for $29 + $15 shipping. It's a nice unit and the TV Guide is really nice. I received it in 2 days.

Does anyone know of a more recent list?
Latest update to "CECB Feature List - mod 16Mar2008".

1. Added chip and tuner types for D-S DTX9900 and Magnavox.
2. Added more features for numerous boxes, incl. D-S, GE, et. al.
3. Winegard RC-DT09 is now on CECB approved list...but I have not seen any info to report.

4. RJTech RJ-900ATSC reportedly does NOT support clear QAM...nor Coax Digital Audio,
so features may actually meet CECB eligibility.
5. RJ-1000ATSC SD-STB presumably DOES include QAM and Coax Digital Audio (not CECB).

6. I updated prices where known....but note that several boxes are not in stock....

As usual, information is based on manufacturer/retail websites and user reports.
Your assistance in filling in the blanks and VERIFYING would be appreciated.

See this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14872530#post14872530

See this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14872530#post14872530
Thanks. There's a bad link in the that post, it's a forum link but I think it may only go to the Excel viewer. ? At any rate, I found the viewer and was able to view it. :) (I also made a note the link was bad).

"CECB Features List - 15Oct2008" spread sheet update is attached.
If you don't have Excel capability, download a free viewer from Microsoft:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post13373061
See "LINKS" sheet to navigate to source of information.
That forum link is a bad link now. If that was to the Excel Viewer, you can get it here (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=EN).